Two Faucets in Shower? Still Legal?

[samuel...@gmail.com]

We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.

Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
somebody else is taking a shower.

Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
simply ask, "may I flush?"

Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
strong preference for the two faucet shower.

Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
faucets in a shower?

If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
see this in writing.

P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
but faucets in a shower?

Thanks.

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/8/2008 12:13 AM samuel...@gmail.com spake thus:

> We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
> faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
>
> Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
> have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
> faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
> legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
> somebody else is taking a shower.

Don't know for sure (IANAP[1]), but this one sure smells like BS to me.

Think about it: there's nothing about a single-handle control that's
going to control temperature in case someone flushes a toilet any better
than two faucets (assuming no tempering valve, auto temperature control,
etc.). So nothing inherently safer or less safe either way.

> Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
> faucets in a shower?
>
> If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
> see this in writing.

Codes are written and enforced at the local (i.e., municipal or county)
level. There do exist national codes, but the local building inspector
is the one who has the final say-so.

[1] I am not a plumber.

--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

[Phil Again]

Don't know your state, but other locations don't have that restrictions
as far as I can discover from a quick Internet search. Several Plumbing
supply houses on Internet still sell 3 handle tub faucets just fine from
in-house stock.

You are just remodeling, not new construction on a new bathroom so I
don't see why you don't qualify for grandfather clause.

By the way, a scald guard can be place in the copper line going from the
diverter valve to the shower head. It is a just one more thing to fail
in the future so you have to take out some drywall.

[dadiOH]

samuel...@gmail.com wrote:
> We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
> faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
>
> Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
> have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
> faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
> legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
> somebody else is taking a shower.
>
> Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
> the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
> simply ask, "may I flush?"
>
> Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
> strong preference for the two faucet shower.
>
> Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
> faucets in a shower?
>
> If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
> see this in writing.

Are you talking about the control valve? Lots of manufacturers make those
with two handles so you should have your plumber contact them and let them
know they are in violation of his law.

http://www.faucetline.com/DisplayProducts.asp?prodcat=Bathroom&prodmaincat=Two%20Handle%20Shower&prodsubcat=Two%20Handle%20Shower

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[hal...@aol.com]

The BEST upgrade we have made here for YEARS is the delta single
handle temp and seperate handlew for flow valve. not only does it
prevent scalds but it allows any flow from weak to powerful.

the lack of flow control is why ii hated single handled valves.

this solved that:) plus the valve has a lifetime parts guarantee.

american standard moved production overseas, and the replacement parts
for my old faucet werent very good.......

lastly at home resale time the buyer will want a discount, and look at
your home as a fixer upper...

your better off replacing the valve.........

[hal...@aol.com]

the delta actually has 2 knobs one large handle for flow, and a
smaller temperature adjust one.

its nice no longer having to adjust tempoerature since the faucet
remembers the prevbious setting:)

[John Grabowski]

<samuel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f555e72a-5795-4f7b...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...

Call up the plumbing inspector in town and ask him. I heard that the single
handled models are required to keep people from getting scalded. There are
adjustments to control the flow of hot and cold water.

[George]

samuel...@gmail.com wrote:
> We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
> faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
>
> Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
> have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
> faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
> legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
> somebody else is taking a shower.

Anti scald has been a requirement for some time. If you look at how they
do it it is really simple to do implement in a single handle valve.

Also if there are older folks or young children or even a sleepy you it
is impossible to blast yourself with hot water turning on a single
handle faucet.

I wouldn't have anything but single handle faucets anywhere in the
house. The are just so much easier to use.

[Old and Grunpy]

<samuel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f555e72a-5795-4f7b...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...

> We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
> faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
>
> Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
> have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
> faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower.

Where in the world you are living, have you check at lows and home depo.
Tony

[Blattus Slafaly]

I'd tell the legislature to go pound sand. I hate single controls for
showers, You can't control the pressure or volume. It's both wide open
all the time. Only a shit head would invent something like that.

--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8

[TWayne]

> We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
> faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
>
> Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
> have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one

Wow; either you're trolling or need a new plumbing company.

[Mark]

"Blattus Slafaly" <boobooil...@roadrunner.com> wrote in message
news:P_udnQihvIDMAljV...@giganews.com...

What kind of single control are you using? My 30 year old cheapo Delta lets
me control both pressure and volume, and I can control the water temp with
it too! I have a double faucet shower in my basement 'mudroom' and I'll
have to say I like the single better. I like LOTS of water (pressure and
volume) and when I want to turn the temp down I invariably find that which
ever one I turn is all ready at the max - turn the hot down and it was
already nearly off. Turn the cold up and it was already at the max. Single
control lets me turn the one knob and get the desired results....

[David Combs]

In article <eradnWepleTVvljV...@comcast.com>,

George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>samuel...@gmail.com wrote:
>> We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
>> faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
>>
>> Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
>> have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
>> faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
>> legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
>> somebody else is taking a shower.
>
>
>Anti scald has been a requirement for some time. If you look at how they
>do it it is really simple to do implement in a single handle valve.
>
>Also if there are older folks or young children or even a sleepy you it
>is impossible to blast yourself with hot water turning on a single
>handle faucet.
>
>I wouldn't have anything but single handle faucets anywhere in the
>house. The are just so much easier to use.
>

Suppose you're the 5th person taking a shower that morning,
and the hot water from the heater is only luke-warm.

Does the mechanism allow you to turn it to 100% from the
hot-pipe?

Or, suppose you want to fill a bucket with 100% really-hot
water, and you want to get the water from the shower.
Perhaps the protect-the-human faucet will impede you from
doing that?

David

PS: yes, with low pressure, a flushed toilet can be
a hot experience indeed.

Although with a regular toilet, with a tank, just
how much water per minute is coming in

Now, those powerful pressure-flush toilets (admitting that
I have no idea how they work), being on the same
cold-water-line as that could sure get someone
burned while in the shower!

[mcadchri]

replying to samueltilden, mcadchri wrote:

In some states two-handle faucets have been made illegal according to the
published uniform plumbing code of that state. Each state produces their
own uniform plumbing code. By illegal, it means that a licensed plumbing
professional can NOT install this device for risk of his license being
revoked by the state, in essence ruining his business and/or livelihood.
Any existing two-handle is grandfathered in if it existed prior to the
code being written. However, if the valve goes bad and needs to be
replaced, it MUST be replaced with a pressure balanced single handle
valve. The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
(handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
was not installed by a state licensed industry professional.

Hope this helps!

--
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http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/two-faucets-in-shower-still-legal-329902-.htm
using HomeOwnersHub's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface
to home and garden related groups

[mcadchri]

replying to gfretwell , mcadchri wrote:
> gfretwell wrote:
>
> On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 15:44:02 +0000, mcadchri
> This is the code text (IRC as adopted in Florida)
> P2708.3 Shower control valves.
> Individual shower and tub/shower combination valves shall be equipped
> with control valves of the pressure-balance, thermostatic-mixing or
> combination pressure-balance/thermostatic-mixing valve types with a
> high limit stop in accordance with ASSE 1016 or CSA B125. The high
> limit stop shall be set to limit water temperature to a maximum of
> 120°F (49°C). In-line thermostatic valves shall not be used for
> compliance with this section.
>
> Whether that means you actually have to use a "combination valve" is
> open to conjecture but most AHJs seem to think that is what it says



Very interesting. I've been investigating this topic all morning because
we had a client who refused to change and just wants an unlicensed
handyman to do it. What more I'm finding out is that this is actually
nationwide, not state by state. It's related to (as you said) ASSE 1016,
which is the Scald Prevention measure. The Mass. Plumbing Code lists it as
follows:
Shower Controls.
When a flow control valve or shower head is designed to completely
shut-off and is installed on the outlet pipe from a shower control unit,
check valves shall be provided in the hot and cold water supplies to the
unit to prevent by-passing of hot or cold water. An exception to the
requirement above is when Product-approved shower control units are
designed to prevent bypassing.
1. All showers, shower stalls, shower compartments, gang showers, and
shower baths, either multiple or single, shall be equipped with an
approved adjustable self-cleaning and draining shower head.
2. The water supply to a shower head shall be supplied through a
Product-approved individual thermostatic, pressure balancing or
combination thermostatic/pressure balancing valve complying with ASSE
1016. The device shall conform to the following requirements:
the device shall incorporate a design that limits the maximum deliverable
temperature of hot water to 112EF; and
the device shall be designed to prevent bypassing of water.
http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/dpl-boards/pl/regulations/rules-and-regs/248-cmr-1000.html#10.10
According to #2 of the previous there is not much room for conjecture as
it states "shall be supplied through."
The Uniform Plumbing Code book, ISSN 0733-2335, states in section 420.0 -
SHOWER AND TUB/SHOWER COMBINATION CONTROL VALVES: "Showers and tub/shower
combinations in all buildings shall be provided with individual control
valves of the pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Gang
showers, when supplied with a single temperature controlled water supply
pipe, may be controlled by a master thermostatic mixing valve in lieu of
individually controlled pressure balance or thermostatic mixing valves
(pg. 30-31)."
Again this removes any conjecture form the conversation as these are the
regulations set by the regulatory agency that licenses plumbing
professionals. Any deviation from said regulations could be cause for
termination of professional license.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/6/2013 11:44 AM, mcadchri wrote:

>
> The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
> (handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
> are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
> If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
> the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
> ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
> pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
> was not installed by a state licensed industry professional.
> Hope this helps!
>

Do you have evidence of this? I've never heard of a claim being denied
because of a DIY install. I've never heard of an insurance company
asking for information about an installer.

If the valve bursts, it is a manufacturer's defect, not a problem with
the installer anyway but the warranty excluded paying for damages, thus,
your insurance will cover. If it is a faulty install, you will be paid.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Friday, September 6, 2013 1:14:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/6/2013 11:44 AM, mcadchri wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> > The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
>
> > (handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
>
> > are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
>
> > If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
>
> > the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
>
> > ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
>
> > pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
>
> > was not installed by a state licensed industry professional.
>
> > Hope this helps!
>
> >
>
>
>
> Do you have evidence of this? I've never heard of a claim being denied
>
> because of a DIY install. I've never heard of an insurance company
>
> asking for information about an installer.
>
>

+1

Frequently claimed here, but I've yet to see one example of
an insurance company doing it. And he's also wrong on another
aspect. There is absolutely nothing preventing people in most
parts of the country from doing repairs in their own home
themselves without being licensed. You are frequently required to get
a permit, depending on what you are doing. But even here in the
Peoples Republic of NJ, you can do work on your own home, without
being licensed.

[mcadchri]

replying to tra...@optonline.net , mcadchri wrote:

> trader4 wrote:
>
> +1
> Frequently claimed here, but I've yet to see one example of
> an insurance company doing it. And he's also wrong on another
> aspect. There is absolutely nothing preventing people in most
> parts of the country from doing repairs in their own home
> themselves without being licensed. You are frequently required to get
> a permit, depending on what you are doing. But even here in the
> Peoples Republic of NJ, you can do work on your own home, without
> being licensed.

I'm going to try and reply to the previous two comments in this section
here so bear with me. As far as evidence is concerned, only what you learn
from speaking with customers and adjusters on the job. You're more than
welcome to try to read through the hundreds of pages of legal jargon in
your homeowner's insurance policy manual to find the specifics, but I'll
pass. We all do know though that when a large claim is made an adjuster
comes out to do an investigation (or the insurance company sends a
licensed professional on their behalf). This is to find out what caused
the leak (in this example of a shower valve leak). If they conclude that
the valve body itself is the cause of the leak, then of course they will
pay because this is what the insurance is for. However, if it is
determined that one of the sweats (copper + silver + copper fusions
linking the valve body to the pipe) is at fault for the cause of the water
they are going to question the owner on who installed the valve. This step
is because if another person is at faulty for shoddy work, they'll want
them to pay. That's why professional companies also carry insurance
policies. Every insurance company is different on how far they deem
reasonable to investigate, normally depending on the overall cost of the
repair. The model/identity number of the valve can be easily traced to
show when it was purchased. This can be compared to the tenure of the
homeowner in the residence. You can see where this goes. So you see, it
all depends on the company. Nothing is black and white, we all know that.
The problem with your statement is that you're making the assumption that
the VALVE is the problem, but in most cases it's the INSTALLATION.

To the second comment, I never stated that a person could not do it
themselves. Of course they can. That is every home owner's right. As long
as there's no HOA a home owner can do whatever they wish to their home.
And yes, a homeowner can pull their own permit in order to perform these
tasks. But a permit couples with an inspection to ensure it is done
properly and in accordance with city code.

Somehow we got off track and we are now talking about people doing their
own work. That's not at all what the question was or what the thread is
about. The question was is it legal for a Plumber to install a 2 or 3
handle valve that is not pressure balance or containing thermostatic
controlled. The simple answer is this: A LICENSED PLUMBING PROFESSIONAL
CAN NOT PERFORM THIS ACTION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE UNIFORM PLUMBING CODE,
INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE, OR ASSE 1016; THEREFORE THE INSTALLATION OF
SUCH A DEVICE PUTS THE LICENSE OF THE PLUMBER PROFESSIONAL AT RISK OF
TERMINATION.

But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You just
probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people
who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his
license to do it for you. Hope this helps!

[sms]

On 9/6/2013 11:45 AM, mcadchri wrote:

<snip>

> But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You just
> probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people
> who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his
> license to do it for you. Hope this helps!

There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
to pay.

[Paul Drahn]

People have not even mentioned one of the primary limiting components as
to homeowner repairs/changes to his home. That is the mortgage holder
for the property, unless the homeowner owns the property free of a mortgage.

Read the mortgage papers you signed. You must maintain the property so
the value is at least as great as the mortgage principal balance. Also,
in most cases, the mortgage owner has the right to inspect your property
at least annually.

Years ago, my brother worked for a mortgage company. One day he called
to see if I knew where a particular house was located. It was right next
door, with a board fence between the properties. The mortgage holder
asked my brother to inspect the place. The property owner was a
contractor and the entire place was filled with lumber, old bathroom
fixtures and who knows what else. My brother visited and told the owner
the mortgage holder gave him 30 days to clean it all up. Which he did.

Paul

[mcadchri]

replying to sms , mcadchri wrote:
> scharf.steven wrote:
>
> <snip>

> There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
> shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
> the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
> for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
> valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
> was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
> installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
> to pay.

That seems accurate. If there's any common knowledge about insurance
companies it's that they do not want to pay. They will put forth the time
and manpower to avoid paying a claim if possible. So it just seems more
logical to avoid all this mess and headache and just have the valve
replaced.

[tra...@optonline.net]

What the insurance company does in that case is to pay the
claim to the homeowner and then if they believe they have
a claim against the plumber who did the work, they go after
them to recover. That is very different from what you stated,
which is that they deny the claim.

That's why professional companies also carry insurance
>
> policies. Every insurance company is different on how far they deem
>
> reasonable to investigate, normally depending on the overall cost of the
>
> repair. The model/identity number of the valve can be easily traced to
>
> show when it was purchased. This can be compared to the tenure of the
>
> homeowner in the residence. You can see where this goes. >
So you see, it
>
> all depends on the company. Nothing is black and white, we all know that.
>
> The problem with your statement is that you're making the assumption that
>
> the VALVE is the problem, but in most cases it's the INSTALLATION.
>
>
>
> To the second comment, I never stated that a person could not do it
>
> themselves. Of course they can. That is every home owner's right. As long
>
> as there's no HOA a home owner can do whatever they wish to their home.

But you said or at least strongly implied, that if they did it themselves and it fails because something wasn't done right, then the insurance company won't pay the claim, because they were unlicensed.

"The only way around this is to have an unlicensed individual
> (handyman, do-it-yourselfer) perform the repair. If you do this though you
> are rolling the dice on whether or not this repair will be done properly.
> If, let's say, your handyman replaces the valve and does a shoddy job and
> the valve bursts 3 months after installation, any damage to floors, walls,
> ceilings, etc., will be the responsibility of the homeowner to fix out of
> pocket. The insurance company will disregard the claim because your device
> was not installed by a state licensed industry professional."

That is what has been claimed here many times. It seems rather
odd. You can be an idiot and leave a pot of oil burning on the stove,
it burns the whole house down and they pay. You leave a
window open, it rains, the house gets damaged, they pay. But you
put a water valve in and it leaks and they aren't going to pay
because you're not licensed? Maybe it's happened, but I'd
like to see an example.

>
> And yes, a homeowner can pull their own permit in order to perform these
>
> tasks. But a permit couples with an inspection to ensure it is done
>
> properly and in accordance with city code.
>
>

There is only a permit pulled if it's necessary. There are all
kinds of repairs being done by homeowners in various parts of
the country that require no permit.

>
> Somehow we got off track and we are now talking about people doing their
>
> own work. That's not at all what the question was or what the thread is
>
> about. The question was is it legal for a Plumber to install a 2 or 3
>
> handle valve that is not pressure balance or containing thermostatic
>
> controlled. The simple answer is this: A LICENSED PLUMBING PROFESSIONAL
>
> CAN NOT PERFORM THIS ACTION IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE UNIFORM PLUMBING CODE,
>
> INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE, OR ASSE 1016; THEREFORE THE INSTALLATION OF
>
> SUCH A DEVICE PUTS THE LICENSE OF THE PLUMBER PROFESSIONAL AT RISK OF
>
> TERMINATION.
>

I would think that would be true if the AHJ has adopted
that part of the code. Not saying it probably isn't now in
force across most of the USA, especially the populated parts,
but do you know what every backwater community everywhere
has done?

[sms]

On 9/6/2013 9:44 AM, mcadchri wrote:

> Very interesting. I've been investigating this topic all morning because
> we had a client who refused to change and just wants an unlicensed
> handyman to do it.

There are two handle shower controls with anti-scald so he should just
use one of those.

[Atdo...@at.com.com]

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 15:44:02 +0000, mcadchri

Soon, it will be illegal to take a shit between certain hours. Before
our politicians take away our guns, we need to march to specific
government buildings armed and ready to do some shooting. Otherwise we
can kiss American goodbye. Next time you sing the Star Spangled Banner,
DO NOT use the words "land of the free". It's a goddamn lie!

Fuck it, I think I'll replace my single handed shower faucet with a
double just to spite the cocksuckers!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Up here inKitchener/Waterloo Ontaro when a new water heater is
installed a scald-proof valve needs to be installed at the water
heater that "tempers" the water to a "safe temperature" - meaning you
can use 2 handle faucets and have no danger of scalding. It also means
it is virtually impossible to get hot water!!!

[tra...@optonline.net]

Oh, good grief. Now we have the mortgage company boogey man?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Saturday, September 7, 2013 10:52:42 AM UTC-4, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 13:26:21 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>

> It makes me wonder how the baby boomers and their parents actually
>
> survived without all of this new "safety".
>
>
>
> We had lawn darts, diving boards at every pool, gas cans that you
>
> could actually get the gas out of, and a car seat for a kid clipped
>
> over the seat back with a little steering wheel in front.
>
>
>
> Toilets actually flushed, showers sprayed enough water to get you wet
>
> and, oh yes, you had to make sure the water wasn't too hot yourself.

You know what's rather odd. I've seen it posted that two handle
shower faucets are illegal. I've seen it posted that if a plumber
ever installs one, anywhere, he'll lose his license. I've seen it
posted that if a homeowner installs one, or anything himself for that
matter, the insurance company won't pay off on a claim if it someday
leaks. I've even heard that the mortgage company gestapo is gonna
come inspect and catch you someday. But, oddly, for something that
is supposed to be so illegal, if you just google for two handle
shower faucets you immediately come up with
many two handle ones being sold here in the USA, made by major
plumbing eqpt suppliers, like Moen. Go figure..


http://www.fixtureuniverse.com/products/view.aspx?sku=5090158&af=1526&cse=1526&gclid=CJyUhbe7urkCFYui4AodxD8ATA&gclsrc=aw.ds

http://www.fixtureuniverse.com/products/view.aspx?sku=5090158&af=1526&cse=1526&gclid=CLDek5q8urkCFUmi4AodfhkARQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

http://www.faucet.com/moen-82402-double-handle-tub-and-shower-valve-trim-kit-with-single-function-showerhead-from-the-adler-collection/p1676131?source=gg-gba-pla_1676131____13653109608&s_kwcid=PTC!pla!!!38526465528!g!!13653109608&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CPvtlKy8urkCFdOj4Aod5CwAZw

BTW, for the google handicapped, like Harry K, who can't find
anything for themselves, I've provided some links above.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 14:15:20 -0700, Paul Drahn
<pdr...@webformixair.com> wrote:

>On 9/6/2013 1:26 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 9/6/2013 11:45 AM, mcadchri wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> But if you want to put it in your home, go ahead. It's your home. You
>>> just
>>> probably won't find an experienced licensed plumber, you know the people
>>> who do this work for a living and are educated in it, who will risk his
>>> license to do it for you. Hope this helps!
>>
>> There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
>> shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
>> the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
>> for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
>> valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
>> was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
>> installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
>> to pay.
>>
>People have not even mentioned one of the primary limiting components as
>to homeowner repairs/changes to his home. That is the mortgage holder
>for the property, unless the homeowner owns the property free of a mortgage.

Utter nonsense.

>Read the mortgage papers you signed. You must maintain the property so
>the value is at least as great as the mortgage principal balance. Also,
>in most cases, the mortgage owner has the right to inspect your property
>at least annually.

Good grief! Replacing the shower mixing valve doesn't change the value
of the home. ...not even $.25.

>Years ago, my brother worked for a mortgage company. One day he called
>to see if I knew where a particular house was located. It was right next
>door, with a board fence between the properties. The mortgage holder
>asked my brother to inspect the place. The property owner was a
>contractor and the entire place was filled with lumber, old bathroom
>fixtures and who knows what else. My brother visited and told the owner
>the mortgage holder gave him 30 days to clean it all up. Which he did.

..and that's relevant to a mixing valve, just how?

[Stormin Mormon]

I guess some companies never miss a chance to
tell others what to do?

.
Christopher A. Young
"surge suppressor" and "surge protector"
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 22:45:01 +0000, mcadchri
<caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:

>replying to sms , mcadchri wrote:
>> scharf.steven wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> There's another issue as well. If a guest is scalded when using your
>> shower, and sues you, the insurance company will investigate to see if
>> the valve was ever replaced. If it was replaced after the requirement
>> for the scald-proof valves then they will want to know who installed the
>> valve. If it was a licensed plumber then they'll go after them. If it
>> was the homeowner it gets dicey. The homeowner violated the code by
>> installing a non-compliant valve so the insurance company could refuse
>> to pay.
>
>
>
>That seems accurate. If there's any common knowledge about insurance
>companies it's that they do not want to pay. They will put forth the time
>and manpower to avoid paying a claim if possible. So it just seems more
>logical to avoid all this mess and headache and just have the valve
>replaced.

More nonsense. If your insurance company has that reputation, get
another. NOW.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 20:08:24 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

>On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 16:39:22 -0700 (PDT), "tra...@optonline.net"
><tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>Oh, good grief. Now we have the mortgage company boogey man?
>

>If the current bankruptcy fiascos are accurate, people are not even
>sure who the "mortgage company" is.

That's what you get for listening to the major media.

>My neighbor hasn't made a house payment in 2 1/2 years and they are
>not even sure actually has the right to foreclose.

Highly doubtful. It's more likely that the bank is better off with
them in the house than having it empty. Some have learned that lesson
the hard way.

>It certainly is not the company that has the mortgage filed downtown
>They are still digging through the sales of the loan trying to
>determine if all the assignments are in order and who actually owns
>the loan now. There are 2 tax certificates out now and next spring the
>county will put it on the block. I may bid.
>Tax liens wipe out all the prior encumbrances.

Like you'll be alone.

[John Albert]

Just as an aside...

The times I've gotten almost-burned taking a shower, were
always with a one-handle control.

Seems if you move it towards "hot", it gets _very_ hot
unpredictably.
If you move it towards "cold", it gets _very_ cold,
unpredictably.
Almost impossible to control it in small increments of
temperature.

With a two-handle (hot/cold) control setup, you can set "one
side" (say, the hot side), and then gradually add cool water
to balance things out.

I would never want a single-knob control.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 9/8/2013 9:36 AM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 20:08:24 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 16:39:22 -0700 (PDT), "tra...@optonline.net"
>> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, good grief. Now we have the mortgage company boogey man?
>>
>> If the current bankruptcy fiascos are accurate, people are not even
>> sure who the "mortgage company" is.
>
> That's what you get for listening to the major media.
>
>> My neighbor hasn't made a house payment in 2 1/2 years and they are
>> not even sure actually has the right to foreclose.
>
> Highly doubtful. It's more likely that the bank is better off with
> them in the house than having it empty. Some have learned that lesson
> the hard way.
>

Every home in the area that's not occupied winds up stripped of all
material which has any salvage value. Years ago, I remember a nice
looking two story house that had the aluminum siding disappear a little
at a time. Every time I drove by, I'd see more missing until it was all
gone. After the siding was gone, other things such as the windows and
doors vanished while bipedal vermin made use of it as a place they did
those mysterious unseen things they do. The wrecked house was finally
torn down and nothing has been built to replace it. O_o

TDD

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 11:19:59 -0400, John Albert <j.al...@snet.net>
wrote:

>Just as an aside...
>
>The times I've gotten almost-burned taking a shower, were
>always with a one-handle control.
>
>Seems if you move it towards "hot", it gets _very_ hot
>unpredictably.
>If you move it towards "cold", it gets _very_ cold,
>unpredictably.
>Almost impossible to control it in small increments of
>temperature.

Your hot water must be very hot. We had a similar problem but the hot
water went up to 180F (right out of the domestic coil on the boiler).
One got used to controlling it, though. It sure surprised some
visitors. Oh, and don't flush! In short, the plumbing in that house
sucked. It wasn't the mixing valve(s).

>With a two-handle (hot/cold) control setup, you can set "one
>side" (say, the hot side), and then gradually add cool water
>to balance things out.
>
>I would never want a single-knob control.

Dumb. Dual valve controls always leak. The single valve models have
an easily replaced cartridge. That said, not all single knob mixing
valves are alike. Some only have temperature control, no volume.

In short, Id *never* have the individual hot/cold knobs, anywhere
outside, perhaps, a slop sink.

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

John Albert <j.al...@snet.net> wrote:

>I would never want a single-knob control.

Sounds like you had a cheap, uncontrolled valve. I do like pressure balanced
valves. They strike a reasonable compromise between the cost of a temperature
controlled valve and getting scalded when someone flushes a nearby toilet. Never
seen a PB valve that wasn't single control.

That said, what does annoy me are single knob shower valves that force you to
dial through full cold before they start blending in hot water. Always get hit
with that last little blast of cold water as I turn off the water and exit the
shower. Plus, there is no way to dial back the pressure - it has to be full on
or controlled at the head.

[DerbyDad03]

<gfre...@aol.com> wrote:

>
> It makes me wonder how the baby boomers and their parents actually
> survived without all of this new "safety".
>
> We had lawn darts, diving boards at every pool, gas cans that you
> could actually get the gas out of, and a car seat for a kid clipped
> over the seat back with a little steering wheel in front.
>

It's not about those of us who have survived, it's about the many who
haven't.

Compare the percentage of children who survive car crashes in today's car
seats vs. the survival rate for those in the "car seat with a little

steering wheel in front".

I suppose you want us to go back to cars without crumble zones or air bags.
Many of us have survived accidents without all that "safety".
Unfortunately, there are many people that are no longer with us because
they weren't "inconvenienced" by all this mandated safety equipment.

[k...@attt.bizz]

...and how about all those little tykes who are never allowed to play
in the dirt and then get asthma and all sorts of diseases because
their immune systems don't work properly.

"Safety" is a two-way street.

[morti...@gmail.com]

Sorry I have to resurrect this because I'm pissed as hell at these bullshit "scald safe" faucets in my home.

I recently installed an inline water heater. It's not a high-end brand, Eco-Temp or something like that, we needed a new water heater and this one was priced similar to a 40-gallon tank heater, so we got it. It runs on propane (we do not have natural gas).

Just so you understand how inline water heaters work. When you turn on the hot water anywhere in the house, this thing fires up a propane burner which heats a coil of copper pipe that winds through the unit. As the water flows through, it's heated by the propane. There is no tank - water is heated on-demand as you need it.

I have no idea whether this is a "feature" (or lack of) in my specific inline heater, or if all inline heaters work this way. The problem is the intensity of the burner does not adjust adequately based on flow rate. If you turn the hot on full blast, the water is passing through the flames much more quickly, and doesn't heat up as much. If you turn on the hot water only a little, it passes through the flames much more slowly and you get much hotter water.

What this means is, if I want cooler water, I can't reduce the hot handle - that reduces the quantity of hot water, but increases the temperature of the hot side. I have to INCREASE the cold side to make it cooler, and leave the hot alone.

This is IMPOSSIBLE to do with a single handle faucet. When you turn it towards cold, it is both reducing the hot and increasing the cold, and the net difference ends up being about the same. The more you turn it towards the blue, the hotter the hot water gets, which cancels out the increased supply of cold water. One temp is all you get.

That is, until the hot water is trickling so slowly it reaches 140*F, at which point the safety kicks on at the inline water heater and shuts down everything. Then you're back to cold water no matter how you turn the faucet.

Yes, I've tried adjusting the little valve thingy on the sides of the single-handle faucets to increase the max amount of hot water - makes no difference. And also, about half the faucets in my house, the set screws were so crusty/rusted I either couldn't turn them or broke something trying to get them loose.

[morti...@gmail.com]

I can't stand this type of nanny-state bullshit, with regulations stepping in to prevent things that common sense should be preventing.

The red handle provides hot water, hot enough to burn you. Be careful.

PLEASE GIVE ME BACK MY RIGHT TO CONTROL THE WATER TEMPERATURE IN MY HOUSE.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Don't know about the USA but in Canada they are legal if you have a
"tempering valve" on the water heater, which mixes hot and cold to
limit the output temperature.

[HerHusband]

> I recently installed an inline water heater. It's not a high-end
> brand, Eco-Temp or something like that, we needed a new water heater
> and this one was priced similar to a 40-gallon tank heater, so we got
> it. It runs on propane (we do not have natural gas).

> the intensity of the burner does not adjust adequately based on flow
> rate. If you turn the hot on full blast, the water is passing through
> the flames much more quickly, and doesn't heat up as much. If you
> turn on the hot water only a little, it passes through the flames much
> more slowly and you get much hotter water.

It sounds like your tankless water heater is undersized for your
situation.

Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a
given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get
cooler water.

Likewise, if the water coming into your home is colder, the outgoing
water will be colder too. The heater can only raise the temperature so
much.

It would be like trying to heat an entire house with a small space
heater. If you close the doors you might be able to heat one room. Open
the doors and you'll lose heat faster than the heater can warm it.

When you bought your heater you should have checked the temperature of
your water supply, what flow rate you would need (how many fixtures you
would be running at once), and selected a heater that could meet those
requirements.

At this point, you really only have a few options.

1. Return the tankless heater and go back to a tank heater.

2. Replace the tankless heater with a more powerful model.

3. Add a valve to the water line to reduce the flow rate (giving the
heater more time to heat up the water).

Of course, putting low flow aerators on all of your fixtures would help
too.

One way you can test if your water heater is the culprit is to open a hot
water valve at a sink or washing machine outlet. Basically someplace with
the "two handle" operation you are describing. If the water cools down as
you open the faucet further, you know the heater isn't able to keep up.

> I'm pissed as hell at these bullshit "scald safe" faucets in my home.

As far as I know, single handle pressure balanced shower faucets are now
required for new construction (or remodels when you upgrade the
plumbing).

You might try replacing the balancing valve in the faucet, it might just
be defective. Sometimes they get plugged up with grit and stop moving
correctly.

> half the faucets in my house, the set screws were so crusty/rusted
> I either couldn't turn them or broke something trying to get them
> loose.

Odds are the pressure balancer is crusty/rusted too. Time to do some
maintenance.

Good luck,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[micky]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 20:11:02 -0700 (PDT), morti...@gmail.com wrote:

>

>What this means is, if I want cooler water, I can't reduce the hot handle -=
> that reduces the quantity of hot water, but increases the temperature of t=
>he hot side. I have to INCREASE the cold side to make it cooler, and leave=
> the hot alone.
>
>This is IMPOSSIBLE to do with a single handle faucet. When you turn it tow=

I noticed this, and I don't like them because of this. Because you have
no control of how much water comes out. . I think I've seen this kind
of faucet in gym locker rooms, And they had it in the Hilton I just
stayed in, though there one person's use of hotwater probably has no
effect on its temperature.

>ards cold, it is both reducing the hot and increasing the cold, and the net=
> difference ends up being about the same. The more you turn it towards the=
> blue, the hotter the hot water gets, which cancels out the increased suppl=

>y of cold water. One temp is all you get.
>

>That is, until the hot water is trickling so slowly it reaches 140*F, at wh=
>ich point the safety kicks on at the inline water heater and shuts down eve=

>rything. Then you're back to cold water no matter how you turn the faucet.
>

>Yes, I've tried adjusting the little valve thingy on the sides of the singl=
>e-handle faucets to increase the max amount of hot water - makes no differe=
>nce. And also, about half the faucets in my house, the set screws were so =
>crusty/rusted I either couldn't turn them or broke something trying to get =
>them loose.

However i didn't realize there were so many problems.

A) I don't know anything about the law.

Besides Hubby's suggestions, and depending on how many places this is a
problem, could you replace the shower fixture with a kitchen sink style
fixture, whose handle moves in two planes and with which you can adjust
both the temp and the volume? I can't remember now seeing them in a
shower or bathtub but I saw one in a bathroom sink a couple days ago
(of course the house was 30 or 40 years old)

It might be easier, no tile work, for example, to replace the water
heater.


My own bathtub/shower doesn't work like I remember it. If I don't want
a blast of water, just moderate, I can turn on the hot, and then it
takes only a minute adjustment to the cold to change the temperature of
the mixed water. It's not bad, but I sure thought it used to work
differently and I don't know how it coudl have changed.

[R. P. McMurphy]

On 07/08/2015 10:11 PM, morti...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I recently installed an inline water heater. It's not a high-end brand, Eco-Temp or something like that, we needed a new water heater and this one was priced similar to a 40-gallon tank heater, so we got it.

Tankless water heaters suck and they don't really save money.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Why blame safety regulations for your crappy water heater? Or is the
valve going bad? With my single handle shower faucets I turn the
handle to about 11 o'clock, make a minor adjustment if needed and I'm
set to shower. Makes no difference if anyone flushes a toilet, the
dishwasher is filling or the other shower is going.

It is also possible the sensor in the faucet is not working properly
too. You should be able to set the maximum temperature at a safe
level and just turn the handle to full hot and be within showering
range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:31:55 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:

>
> At this point, you really only have a few options.
>
> 1. Return the tankless heater and go back to a tank heater.
>
> 2. Replace the tankless heater with a more powerful model.
>
> 3. Add a valve to the water line to reduce the flow rate (giving the
> heater more time to heat up the water).
>
> Of course, putting low flow aerators on all of your fixtures would help
> too.
>

Agree. Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer. I see
what's going on and how it's annoying, but I'd say the root cause
are the properties of the tankless. It would be solved by having
a tankless sized to maintain constant water temp up to whatever
the max usage rate of the whole house is. But that will likely
take a much larger model, because you have to support the max
reasonable load of the whole house. And if he's having this
problem with just one point of use, it would likely require a much
bigger unit to support two or three simultaneous draws.
Alternative, as you say, is to restrict the hot water flow rate
so that the tankless can keep up. Even then though, I wonder
how variable their burn rate is and if they can actually
maintain a perfectly constant outgoing temp rate? IDK, because
I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting
with cost.

[Mayayana]

I'm not certain, but I think where I live plumbers
are not allowed to install separate valves, but
you can still buy them. It sounds like what you
need is a real water heater. Then if you do the
shower plumbing yourself you can probably switch
over to dual valves. But with a decent water heater
you might be happy with the old mixing valve.

[HerHusband]

> Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer.

There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the
application.

As with most things, people buy the wrong thing then complain about the
item as a whole. "Those things don't work" instead of "I got the wrong
model".

A tankless heater designed for a single faucet isn't going to perform well
for an entire house.

> I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting
> with cost.

I looked at tankless models when we built our house. We didn't have gas
available and electric models would have required major electrical supply
upgrades. We have relatively cold well water so we would have needed a
large model. And, as you say, they're kind of expensive.

However, I have used tankless heaters at many cabins and cottages and they
perform very well when sized correctly. Best part is the hot water never
runs out.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[HerHusband]

> Tankless water heaters suck and they don't really save money.

That's an inaccurate generalization.

Technically, tankless water heaters "flow", not suck. :)

As for saving money, that depends on the application. If you use hot water
regularly throughout the day, you probably won't notice a major difference
compared to a tanked model (other than the hot water never runs out). On
the other hand, if you have a cabin or rental unit that can sit empty for
days, you'll save money by not heating water when no one is using it.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[trader_4]

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 10:57:03 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
> > Sounds like another satisfied tankless customer.
>
> There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the
> application.
>

I'd say even if they're sized right, the fact that in most cases
you'll never recover the increased upfront costs of the unit
and installation are something that's wrong with them. That cost
can include running a larger gas service. The OP might run into
that if he tries to put in a larger one. And the alleged savings
in operating costs, I think in many cases are overstated.

> As with most things, people buy the wrong thing then complain about the
> item as a whole. "Those things don't work" instead of "I got the wrong
> model".
>
> A tankless heater designed for a single faucet isn't going to perform well
> for an entire house.
>
> > I don't and won't have one, for a variety of reasons, starting
> > with cost.
>
> I looked at tankless models when we built our house. We didn't have gas
> available and electric models would have required major electrical supply
> upgrades. We have relatively cold well water so we would have needed a
> large model. And, as you say, they're kind of expensive.

There you go.

>
> However, I have used tankless heaters at many cabins and cottages and they
> perform very well when sized correctly. Best part is the hot water never
> runs out.
>

That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation.
For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip
side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most
tankless, you don't.

[croy]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 14:55:32 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
<unk...@unknown.com> wrote:


>There's nothing wrong with tankless as long as they are sized for the
>application.

Well, yes there are some things. They are expensive. That's
because they have a lot going on in the unit in order to
operate properly and safely. And that means a lot can go
wrong, and very few qualified technicians to fix it, usually
only one source for parts, and that means repairs can cost
more than the original installation.

They do have some good selling points, but consumers should
know about the good and the bad before making a decision.

--
croy

[morti...@gmail.com]

Because the safety regulations are the reason that valve even exists. Without the safety regulations, I wouldn't have to adjust or replace anything, I'd just turn the hot valve a little less or more to get the temperature of water I need.

As for the crappy water heater - yeah, maybe it is not the best, but if I had two-handle faucets, it would be totally fine.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:55:14 PM UTC-4, morti...@gmail.com wrote:
> > range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature.
>
> Because the safety regulations are the reason that valve even exists. Without the safety regulations, I wouldn't have to adjust or replace anything, I'd just turn the hot valve a little less or more to get the temperature of water I need.
>
> As for the crappy water heater - yeah, maybe it is not the best, but if I had two-handle faucets, it would be totally fine.

Apparently two handle, old style shower valves are still sold:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-Revival-2-Handle-Shower-Faucet-in-Vibrant-Brushed-Nickel-K-16214-4A-BN/100094257

So, I'm not sure it's some safety regulation is the reason you
have the more popular single handle type. The single handle ones
are the type most people prefer and are going into most new homes,
etc. But it looks like you can have what you want. How feasible
it is to change it, IDK, that depends, but it's not trivial that's
for sure.

I agree you have a valuable point though, and one that you probably
wouldn't realize until it's too late. Which is if you have a tankless
that can't maintain a constant temperature across the flow rate
when using the shower and/or shower plus other draws at the same time,
then you will have the problem you describe. If that is happening
with just the shower, it definitely sounds like the tankless is under
sized. What make/model is it? Also something that should help
would be to reduce the flow rate at the shower head, assuming it's
not already limited flow.

[sms]

On 7/8/2015 9:30 PM, HerHusband wrote:

> Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a
> given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get
> cooler water.

This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low
flow the water is too hot. Changing the mix at the faucet for more cold
and less hot doesn't work because then the hot water, while lower in
volume, is much hotter.

Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
regardless of the flow? It would not be difficult to do this but a good
flow meter that works for hot water is not cheap.

Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
property? Even for vacation homes it's easy to fit something that turns
the hot water heater off when not in use.

[Mark Lloyd]

On 07/09/2015 10:09 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

> That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation.
> For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip
> side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most
> tankless, you don't.
>

I remember visiting some friends once, during a milti-day power failure
(caused by ice on tress). One of the best things about going home was
getting a hot shower.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"If we should put god in the Constitution there would be no room left
for man." -- Robert G. Ingersoll

[CRNG]

On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 09:25:37 -0700, croy <ha...@spam.invalid.net> wrote
in <9p7tpahjujm6u46rb...@4ax.com>

+1
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 1:23:22 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
> On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 12:55:14 PM UTC-4, morti...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > range. Maybe a slight adjustment for seasonal cold water temperature.
> >
> > Because the safety regulations are the reason that valve even exists. Without the safety regulations, I wouldn't have to adjust or replace anything, I'd just turn the hot valve a little less or more to get the temperature of water I need.
> >
> > As for the crappy water heater - yeah, maybe it is not the best, but if I had two-handle faucets, it would be totally fine.
>
> Apparently two handle, old style shower valves are still sold:
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-Revival-2-Handle-Shower-Faucet-in-Vibrant-Brushed-Nickel-K-16214-4A-BN/100094257
>
> So, I'm not sure it's some safety regulation is the reason you
> have the more popular single handle type. The single handle ones
> are the type most people prefer and are going into most new homes,
> etc. But it looks like you can have what you want. How feasible
> it is to change it, IDK, that depends, but it's not trivial that's
> for sure.

I'm not sure we can state that's it's "not trivial" without knowing the situation in a given bathroom.

If the shower originally had a 2 handle valve which has been replaced with an escutcheon plate and a single handle, then reverting back to 2 faucets might not be that hard at all.

https://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/smitty-plate-one-hole-three-and-a-half-inch-specs.png

Granted, if there is only the single hole in the existing wall, no easy access to the plumbing, etc. then things do get a bit more complicated, but I don't know that we can make the "not trivial" assertion without more information.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 3:24:23 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> On 7/8/2015 9:30 PM, HerHusband wrote:
>
> > Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at a
> > given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it, you'll get
> > cooler water.
>
> This isn't his problem.

That would seem to be exactly his problem. At a slower flow rate,
it's able to heat the water hotter. If he had a unit with a much
higher capacity, then he wouldn't be having the problem.

>The problem is that tankless heater is not
> heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at low
> flow the water is too hot.

It can't heat to the same temperature at 5 gal a minute as it can
at 1 gal a minute. It's very much an issue of the flow rate.

Changing the mix at the faucet for more cold
> and less hot doesn't work because then the hot water, while lower in
> volume, is much hotter.
>

That would indeed be the problem he stated.

> Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
> temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
> regardless of the flow? It would not be difficult to do this but a good
> flow meter that works for hot water is not cheap.

I would certainly hope so. Otherwise when you were drawing .1 gal
a minute, you'd get steam, wouldn't you?

>
> Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
> property?

If you had a big family and had experiences of running out of hot
water I can see it. Around here, they are putting in two tank type
to support large homes, with Jacuzzi type tubs, etc. I can see
putting one in there instead of two tank type.

>Even for vacation homes it's easy to fit something that turns
> the hot water heater off when not in use.

Not so easy unless you have a predictable schedule of when you're
going to be there. For vacation rentals it wouldn't work well
either.

[HerHusband]

>> Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
>> a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
>> you'll get cooler water.

> This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
> heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
> low flow the water is too hot.

If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes:

1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature.

2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective.

Both are easy fixes.

> Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
> temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
> regardless of the flow?

I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
(typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
the heater.

As I mentioned earlier, the original poster should check the water
temperature at a valve near the water heater. If the temperature remains
fairly constant at high and low flow, the heater is probably fine. The
problem is probably a defective faucet.

> Why would anyone put in a tankless water heater in a residential
> property?

Space savings, potential energy savings, endless hot water, gadget wow
factor. How important any of these are depends on the situation and the
individual.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[trader_4]

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:38:25 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:

>
> > Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
> > temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
> > regardless of the flow?
>
> I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
> a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
> (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
> It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
> big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
> the heater.
>

There is a big difference. The tank type has most of a tank of hot
water at close to the same temperature. When you start drawing
water, you can pull a lot of water at whatever rate you want and
the temp is not going to vary much. If you pull enough, eventually
the temp will drop as the cold water entering the bottom of the tank
starts to effect the hot water leaving the top.

With a tankless, the burn rate of fuel has to be adjusted to
the flow rate. Otherwise you'd get steam at .1 gal an hour
and the temp would vary wildly based on flow rate. How exactly
they do that, IDK, but I'd suspect they use some kind of
modulating gas valve.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/9/2015 4:03 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 07/09/2015 10:09 AM, trader_4 wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> That is an advantage. How much it matters, depends on your situation.
>> For me, running out is not a problem with my tank type. On the flip
>> side, when my power goes out, I still have hot water, while with most
>> tankless, you don't.
>>
>
> I remember visiting some friends once, during a milti-day power failure
> (caused by ice on tress). One of the best things about going home was
> getting a hot shower.
>

I've had people suggest I go tankless water heater.
Of course, the thousand dollars or so is a factor.
The hot shower during a power cut is a very good
thing.

Will stick with my tank type heater for now.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

[thekma...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 8, 2008 at 3:13:53 AM UTC-4, samuel...@gmail.com wrote:
> We are remodeling our bathroom and I want the "old fashioned" two
> faucets: one for hot and the other for cold.
>
> Both the plumber and the plumbing supply company say that two faucets
> have been declared illegal and that we must, by law, use the one
> faucet (for both hot and cold) in the shower. They say that the
> legislature mandated one faucet in case someone flushed the toilet and
> somebody else is taking a shower.
>
> Only my wife (of 30 years) and I live at home and, duh, we know when
> the other is showering or using the toilet. We knock on the wall or
> simply ask, "may I flush?"
>
> Yes, I have used the one faucet shower (e.g., hotels) and have a
> strong preference for the two faucet shower.
>
> Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
> faucets in a shower?
>
> If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
> see this in writing.
>
> P.S. I can understand mandating safe electricity practices, of course,
> but faucets in a shower?
>
> Thanks.

____
I prefer single handle(sinks and tubs) because I
am terribly dyslexic and always grab hot for cold
faucet or vice versa. But to deny someone a two-
handle setup is just communist, if you axe me!

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:38:25 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:

Someone other than HerHusband asked:

>
> > Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
> > temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
> > regardless of the flow?

Yes, per the site linked to below, they do exist. I quote, but offer no examples:

"Some types of tankless water heaters are thermostatically controlled; they can vary their output temperature according to the water flow rate and inlet temperature."

>
> I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either. You set
> a maximum temperature and the heater heats the water to that level
> (typically 120 degrees). A tankless heater isn't really all that different.
> It's just heating the water as it comes in instead of preheating it in a
> big tank. Either way the water should always be 120 degrees when it leaves
> the heater.

Not so. Flow Rate is known drawback of tankless WH. Well, maybe not a drawback, per se, but a key factor in sizing a unit. It's a drawback in the sense that you may need to purchase a bigger/more expensive unit based of your flow rate/temperature rise requirements.

The more flow you demand, the lower the water temp at the output because the water is not in "contact" with the burners for as long a time.

Granted, flow rate will impact a tank heater also in that you will run out of 120 degree water sooner with a higher flow rate, but the difference is that regardless of how many showers you turn on, you *will* get 120 degree water out of the tank for some period of time. With a tankless heater, you may never get 120 degree water if the flow rate outpaces the heater's ability to impart the required temperature rise.

From: http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/sizing-new-water-heater

SIZING TANKLESS OR DEMAND-TYPE WATER HEATERS
Tankless or demand-type water heaters are rated by the maximum temperature rise possible at a given flow rate. Therefore, to size a demand water heater, you need to determine the flow rate and the temperature rise you'll need for its application (whole house or a remote application, such as just a bathroom) in your home.

[DerbyDad03]

Not being dyslexic, I would like to ask, in a kind and serious manner:

If your malady causes you to grab the opposite faucet handle, does it not cause you to turn the single handle in the opposite direction than intended?

[thekma...@gmail.com]

9:33 AMDerbyDad03 wrote:
"- show quoted text -

Not being dyslexic, I would like to ask, in a kind and serious manner:

If your malady causes you to grab the opposite faucet handle, does it not cause you to turn the single handle in the opposite direction than intended? "

Sometimes.

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

thekma...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Now, is it really true that some legislature has actually outlawed two
>> faucets in a shower?
>>
>> If so, which legistature (e.g., federal, state, county)? I need to
>> see this in writing.

Depends on which version of the UPC your area is using. Best to call your local
code office:

http://mcadamsplumbing.com/two-three-handle-faucets-illegal/

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

A better answer is more money than brains.
In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
not even close.

[TimR]

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
> not even close.

Probably true.

But it might pay for itself in energy savings plus water savings. Water is cheap in the US but that isn't true everywhere. We had a tankless in Germany for the kitchen, based on not wasting water (kitchen was a long way from the boiler).

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

While you may very well be right in regards to your second comment, your first comment doesn't hold water. (pun intended)

"More money than brains"

The fact that someone can afford to pay for the pleasure of "endless hot water" doesn't mean they suffer from diminished brain capacity.

If someone offered you free endless hot water, would you pass it up? I know I wouldn't. So, if my resources were such that I could absorb the initial and incremental cost differences of tanked vs. tankless hot water without feeling any pain, I'd do it in a second.

We all do things like that quite often. We could sit on wooden boxes instead of couches. We could cook over an open fire instead of on a gas range. The fact that we spend more than we actually *need* to on things that make our lives more enjoyable doesn't (always) make us idiots.

Granted, when we make decisions based on unsubstantiated data and/or spend more than we can comfortably afford, then the "brain power" argument is valid.

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:01:11 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
> On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> > In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
> > not even close.
>
> Probably true.
>
> But it might pay for itself in energy savings plus water savings.

It would cost me more. I can just about guarantee that we would use more water if we never ran out of hot. Even with a 50 gallon tank, SWMBO and I can empty the tank when taking a shower, either separate or shared.

Heck, on a lazy, winter Sunday morning, we'd probably stay in the shower until noon. ;-)

[trader_4]

-On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:23:24 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 1:24:11 PM UTC-4, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> > On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 05:36:55 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
> > <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:
> >
> > >>> Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
> > >>> a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
> > >>> you'll get cooler water.
> > >
> > >> This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
> > >> heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
> > >> low flow the water is too hot.

> > -------------------------------------------------------->

+1
And so typical. In another thread, Clare calls for me to be
censored, but he goes around slamming people as having no brains
because they might choose a tankless.

I could see it as being useful in a vacation property or a rental
property for example. If you only go there a few days a week,
it's not maintaining a tank of hot water. And for vacation rental
properties, same thing. When the renters show up, they have hot
water.

[Bob]

On 7/10/2015 12:23 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
> not even close.
>

Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner!

And here's what those tankless fanboys never want to talk about.
What happens when the tankless controls fail (and they will) during a shower?
Suddenly (with no warning) you find yourself rinsing shampoo out of your hair in 50 degree Fahrenheit water.

No thanks, I'll keep my cheap tank style heater.

And FWIW, I have a 50 gal natural gas water heater and I have NEVER run out of hot water.

[sms]

On 7/9/2015 10:36 PM, HerHusband wrote:
>>> Tankless heaters are generally rated for a given temperature rise at
>>> a given flow rate. If you draw water faster than it can heat it,
>>> you'll get cooler water.
>
>> This isn't his problem. The problem is that tankless heater is not
>> heating to a specific temperature regardless of the flow rate so at
>> low flow the water is too hot.
>
> If the water is too hot at low flow, there are two likely causes:
>
> 1. The water heater is set at too high of a temperature.
>
> 2. The pressure balance valve in the shower faucet is defective.
>
> Both are easy fixes.
>
>> Does any tankless hot water heater monitor the flow rate and output
>> temperature and then adjust the flame to keep the temperature constant
>> regardless of the flow?
>
> I have no idea, but a standard tank model doesn't do this either.

Wrong.

The temperature of the water out of tank model is constant regardless of
the flow rate. Sure you can drain it faster than it can re-heat the
water if the flow rate is very high, but that is not the normal case in
a properly sized tank heater.

A tankless model could mix cold water with hot water at lower flow rates
to keep the output temperature constant (rather than trying to adjust
the flame intensity. Maybe some do this.

[sms]

On 7/10/2015 10:23 AM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> In normal use a tankless will NEVER pay for itself in energy savings -
> not even close.

That is true, but people put in tankless water heaters for other
reasons. Someone mentioned a vacation home where they didn't want a tank
heater constantly cooling and re-heating.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 7/10/2015 2:31 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> It would cost me more. I can just about guarantee that we would use more water if we never ran out of hot. Even with a 50 gallon tank, SWMBO and I can empty the tank when taking a shower, either separate or shared.
>
> Heck, on a lazy, winter Sunday morning, we'd probably stay in the shower until noon. ;-)
>

There are other ways to get there aside from tankless. My old oil fired
boiler would keep up forever but it was not very efficient. Most
electric water heaters have a first hour rating of 50 or 60 gallons. My
indirect fired tank has a rating of about 250 gallons. It is 40% better
on oil than my old setup.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 11:01:04 -0700 (PDT), TimR <timot...@aol.com>
wrote:

Water isn't cheap here either - but unless it is a big house and the
heater is at the wrong end, unless it is a very high quality unit it
will still not last long enought to pay for itself - and even then, a
unit of high enough quality to last that long will cost so much it
STILL won't pay for itself.

It's just about the APPEARANCE of being "green"

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Move to iceland - hot water there truly IS endless - AND free.

> I know I wouldn't. So, if my resources were such that I could absorb the initial and incremental cost differences of tanked vs. tankless hot water without feeling any pain, I'd do it in a second.

If I needed endless hot water, perhaps - but I've NEVER run out of hot
water - in a household with 2 daughters, and a standard 40 gallon gas
water heater. Growing up with 7 siblings and a 30 gallon electric
water heater it took some strategic planning.

[bob haller]

mine is a 75 gallon 75,000 btu tank. it supplies endless hot water. my lat tank was 75,000 btu 50 gallons. but they quit making that one..

i know someone who went tankless the entire thing with install cot about 3 grand. and the time to saving money on gas is never

[Susan Johann]

replying to gfretwell, Susan Johann wrote:
Yes, I've experienced temperature changes when other people in the house used
water. I realize people can get scalded. by having the temperature set too
high on the water heater but in our family of six it never happened and I
don't know of anyone personally who has had this problem.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/two-faucets-in-shower-still-legal-329902-.htm

[Susan Johann]

replying to Blattus Slafaly, Susan Johann wrote:
I'm with you!

[Susan Johann]

replying to hallerb, Susan Johann wrote:
Mine doesn't allow low flow of hot water or high flow of cold water.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 1/18/2020 8:14 PM, Susan Johann wrote:
> replying to gfretwell, Susan Johann wrote:
> Yes, I've experienced temperature changes when other people in the house
> used
> water. I realize people can get scalded. by having the temperature set too
> high on the water heater but in our family of six it never happened and I
> don't know of anyone personally who has had this problem.
>

After 13 years the OP can finally finish his renovations. Thanks for
your help

[nosocialism]

If I lived in that state that outlawed a two-handled faucet, I would consider moving to a different state. The Nanny State needs to be outlawed!!!!!!

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/two-faucets-in-shower-still-legal-329902-.htm

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/20/2020 12:31 PM, nosocialism wrote:
> If I lived in that state that outlawed a two-handled faucet, I would
> consider moving to a different state. The Nanny State needs to be
> outlawed!!!!!!
>

You may have to move to Russia
Are Two and Three handle Shower Faucets Illegal ..
mcadamsplumbing.com › two-three-handle-faucets-ille...
The Uniform Plumbing Code and International Building Code, in accordance
with ASSE 1016, require that all tub/shower faucets now be of the
pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Two and three
valve handles are not. The purpose for this is to prevent serious harm
from hot water scalding.

[Hawk]

Completely understand the code and that's for new construction. They
won't be making people change over if their fixture has the original
two/three handle faucet. Otherwise, they better be willing to pay to
have it updated.

[Grumpy Old White Guy]

On 11/20/2020 12:31 PM, nosocialism wrote:

> If I lived in that state that outlawed a two-handled faucet, I would consider moving to a different state. The Nanny State needs to be outlawed!!!!!!
>

Obamacare clearly states, "if you like your shower faucet, you can keep it."

However, you do need to wear a mask and maintain social distancing while showering.

["\"Re...@home.com]

FWIW, our 1950s shower had 4 handles ! Shower and tub were separate.
When the original recently broke and was irreparable, it cost about
$1000 in parts and labor to have it replaced with a single handle.

The labor was a bear due to the way the pipes for the 4 handle had to be
re-worked, and working in the back of the closet where we could get to
the pipes, etc. Also needed some tile work.

[gfre...@aol.com]

What broke that couldn't be fixed? That was the beauty of those old
brass fixtures. They could be fixed. Home depot might not have the
stems and seats but you can find them online.

["\"Re...@home.com]

While investigating a small leak into the basement, we found that one of
the "cylinders" that the stem screwed into was corroded at its junction
with the main valve body. From residue built up under the valve, it
appears it was leaking slowly for several (many?) years.

When we tried to unthread the "cylinder" from the base, it broke away
and the corrosion damage to the body meant we had to replace the whole
thing.

[Clare Snyder]

The 2 handle shower is still legal if you have a "tempering valve" at
the water heater - a code requirement up here. If I have a plumber
replace the tank next time he will have to install the valve. If I do
it myself it can stay the way it is for another cycle or untill I
sell the house (if the HI finds it and the new buyers require it)

[jane doe]

The Uniform Plumbing Code and International Building Code, in accordance with ASSE 1016, require that all tub/shower faucets now be of the pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Two and three valve handles are not. The purpose for this is to prevent serious harm from hot water scalding.

The exact text from the Uniform Plumbing Code book, ISSN 0733-2335, states in section 420.0 – SHOWER
AND TUB/SHOWER COMBINATION CONTROL VALVES:

“Showers and tub/shower combinations in all buildings shall be provided with individual control valves of the pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Gang showers, when supplied with a single temperature controlled water supply pipe, may be controlled by a master thermostatic mixing valve in lieu of individually controlled pressure balance or thermostatic mixing valves.” (pg. 30-31).

So what does this all mean to you? Well, if you have a 2 or 3 handle tub/shower valve currently in your home, you have been grandfathered in and you don’t need to immediately replace it. However, if something goes wrong with that valve and it must be replaced, you will have to do so with a single handle pressure balanced or thermostatically controlled valve.

While you can still purchase these two or three handle faucets online and from some suppliers and install them yourself, or have a non licensed plumbing professional install them, we wouldn’t recommend this. This devalues your home and puts your family at risk of severe water scalding. Let a licensed professional do the necessary work to make sure your home is repaired to code and under a solid warranty.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 14:01:18 +0000, jane doe
<c5e4d5a4e1a473d2...@example.com> wrote:

>The Uniform Plumbing Code and International Building Code, in accordance with ASSE 1016, require that all tub/shower faucets now be of the pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Two and three valve handles are not. The purpose for this is to prevent serious harm from hot water scalding.
>
>The exact text from the Uniform Plumbing Code book, ISSN 0733-2335, states in section 420.0 – SHOWER
>AND TUB/SHOWER COMBINATION CONTROL VALVES:
>
>“Showers and tub/shower combinations in all buildings shall be provided with individual control valves of the pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Gang showers, when supplied with a single temperature controlled water supply pipe, may be controlled by a master thermostatic mixing valve in lieu of individually controlled pressure balance or thermostatic mixing valves.” (pg. 30-31).
>
>So what does this all mean to you? Well, if you have a 2 or 3 handle tub/shower valve currently in your home, you have been grandfathered in and you don’t need to immediately replace it. However, if something goes wrong with that valve and it must be replaced, you will have to do so with a single handle pressure balanced or thermostatically controlled valve.

Which CAN be a 2 handle or 3 handle type - they DO make and sell
them. Also a tempering valve at the water heater that limits the max
water temp can eliminate the requirement fot the thermostatically
controlled shower unit - at least here in Ontario where THEY are a
requirement. If I have a plumber replace my water heate rhe HAS to
install the tempering valve. If I install it myself I can just replace
it as is

[trader_4]

On Friday, June 11, 2021 at 10:01:23 AM UTC-4, jane doe wrote:
> The Uniform Plumbing Code and International Building Code, in accordance with ASSE 1016, require that all tub/shower faucets now be of the pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Two and three valve handles are not. The purpose for this is to prevent serious harm from hot water scalding.
> The exact text from the Uniform Plumbing Code book, ISSN 0733-2335, states in section 420.0 – SHOWER
> AND TUB/SHOWER COMBINATION CONTROL VALVES:
>
> “Showers and tub/shower combinations in all buildings shall be provided with individual control valves of the pressure balance or the thermostatic mixing valve type. Gang showers, when supplied with a single temperature controlled water supply pipe, may be controlled by a master thermostatic mixing valve in lieu of individually controlled pressure balance or thermostatic mixing valves.” (pg. 30-31).
>
> So what does this all mean to you? Well, if you have a 2 or 3 handle tub/shower valve currently in your home, you have been grandfathered in and you don’t need to immediately replace it. However, if something goes wrong with that valve and it must be replaced, you will have to do so with a single handle pressure balanced or thermostatically controlled valve.

Sounds dubious to me. I can see it as a requirement if the shower/tub is being replaced,
it's a bathroom remodel, etc. But not if it's just that the old valve needs to be replaced.
And whatever it is, it's always up to the local or state authority that has jurisdiction as
to if it's OK or not.





>

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <91bec25c-39b9-47a4...@googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net says...

>
> Sounds dubious to me. I can see it as a requirement if the shower/tub is being replaced,
> it's a bathroom remodel, etc. But not if it's just that the old valve needs to be replaced.
> And whatever it is, it's always up to the local or state authority that has jurisdiction as
> to if it's OK or not.
>
>
>
>
>

I hate those one valve showers. Seems that the mix is often too cold
for me . Especially in the winter time where the incomming water is
much colder. I would rather take my chances of the water comming out
too hot. As long as you tell others in the house not to use the water
it is mostly safe.

[gfre...@aol.com]

If you get a permit and the valve is replaced it will have to be a
current code valve in most places. If the old valve body remains and
it is just "repaired" it can stay.
Without a permit, it is up to how much your "plumber" values his
license if he has one.

[gfre...@aol.com]

You can go it and crank up the heat on those valves. You usually
remove the handle and rotate the plastic disk that limits the travel
or sets the balance. I just set mine up wide open and use the common
sense you were given.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <76q7cghj93gob9f90...@4ax.com>,
gfre...@aol.com says...

> >
> If you get a permit and the valve is replaced it will have to be a
> current code valve in most places. If the old valve body remains and
> it is just "repaired" it can stay.
> Without a permit, it is up to how much your "plumber" values his
> license if he has one.
>
>

Glad we can do our own electrical and plumbing work with out a permit or
contractor in most cases for repairs. Even some new additions to the
house like another outlet or light.