Sump pumps -- GFCI required?
Jay-T
120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
duplex GFCI receptacle.
The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
flooded.
Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
feet from the floor?
Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?
RBM
"Jay-T" <JayT@xkljcvbnm,.lkm> wrote in message
news:hgbfo4$vek$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI protected.
>I do a lot of work with pumps, and from my experience, about 1 in 10 sump
>pumps will trip a GFCI, when brand new, right out of the box. You have two
>choices: Cheat, and replace the GFCI with a standard outlet, or cut the
>plug off of the pump and hard wire it with a switch to shut it off, which
>wouldn't require GFCI protection
hal...@aol.com
wqrote up my sump pump:(
first for no GFCI.......... sale fell thru........
\but I installed GFCI, second home inspector wrote it up saying you
should never GFCI a sump pump. second buyer bought home anyway......
I beleve a single non GFCI outlet is proper
RBM
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:433beaf8-1e0d-44c6...@m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Home inspectors are not by any stretch, electrical inspectors. If you had
five different ones, you'd probably get five different opinions.
Typically, electrical wiring is inspected and certified, when installed, and
grandfathered until such a time when changes are made to it, otherwise,
virtually all the wiring in a home that isn't 90 degree, would have to be
replaced. If the outlet that you plug your pump into was installed before
GFCI protection was required, there is most likely no legal reason why you
should have to replace it.
Jay-T
news:4b29458f$0$5001$607e...@cv.net...
Thanks. I may end up going with the first option, "Cheat, and replace the
GFCI with a standard outlet", since having a sump pump that trips the GFCI
when in use doesn't make sense.
I guess I could do the second option of cutting the plug off and hard wiring
it. But, I would have to figure out how to do that because the sump pump I
have has a plug with two cords going into it -- I assume one is power to the
pump and the other is from the float switch. If I did that approach, would
I have to have a shut-off switch added to the circuit, or would the
dedicated sump pump circuit breaker be sufficient to serve as the shut-off?
RBM
"Jay-T" <Ja...@eyurtiohgf.ghj> wrote in message
news:hgcgsk$k49$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>within sight of it. You could also install a lock on the circuit breaker
tra...@optonline.net
> "RBM" <r...@live.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just make sure that the GFCI doesn't feed other outlets downstream.
If it does and you eliminate it from the sump pump outlet, make sure
to re-install it in the next downstream outlet.
John Grabowski
*The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their location
be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because people will plug
things in no matter where the receptacle is and what it is for. I have seen
plenty of extension cords hanging from garage ceilings to agree with the
requirement that garage door opener receptacles be GFI protected.
Unfortunately that does present a problem as you found out the hard way. I
suggest that you write to the NFPA about your personal experience in this
case.
My thought is that there should be another type of receptacle for the sump
pump such as a twist lock without GFI protection. That would make the
receptacle unavailable for general use and keep it for sump pump use only
and thus eliminate the potential damage from nuisance tripping. If GFI
protection is required for the pump, an equipment GFI can be installed along
with the twist lock receptacle. An equipment GFI does not have the same low
threshold for tripping as the one used for people protection and
consequently is less prone to nuisance tripping.
Doug Miller
>>I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
>>120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
>>duplex GFCI receptacle.
>>
>> The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
>> flooded.
>>
>> Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
>> Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
>> feet from the floor?
2008 NEC, yes -- which IMHO is completely insane.
2005 and earlier NEC, no.
>>
>> Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
>> receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?
Won't matter.
>
>*The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
>receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their location
>be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because people will plug
>things in no matter where the receptacle is and what it is for. I have seen
>plenty of extension cords hanging from garage ceilings to agree with the
>requirement that garage door opener receptacles be GFI protected.
Yes, but note that it also says "for purposes of this section, unfinished
basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as
habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like."
[2008 NEC, Article 210.8(A)(5)]
So put a TV, easy chair, and your beer fridge within a yard or two of the sump
pit, and you've turned that "portion or area of the basement" into a
"habitable room" -- which means that "for purposes of this section" it's no
longer "unfinished" and therefore *not* required to have a GFCI.
There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
Note also that the *2005* NEC contains the same language, and additionally two
pertinent exceptions to the GFCI requirement that were removed in the 2008
Code: "Receptacles that are not readily accessible" and "Receptacles located
within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily
moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected..."
So if the governing authority in the OP's jurisdiction is the 2005 (or
earlier) Code and not 2008, he apparently has no worries.
Bill
> receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their location
> > be GFI protected.
>
Not in Oregon. There are local amendments to this rule and a GFCI is not
required on a sump pump (in Oregon).
Check with your local electrical inspector.
Mark
does the pump trip the GFI whenever the pump is underwater, or only
during the on/off surge?
If it trips whenever the pump is underwater, then you may want to
investigate the source of the leakage. And don't put your hand in the
water when the pump is plugged in.
Mark
bud--
>
> There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
> single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
> circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.
>
> Note also that the *2005* NEC contains the same language, and additionally two
> pertinent exceptions to the GFCI requirement that were removed in the 2008
> Code: "Receptacles that are not readily accessible" and "Receptacles located
> within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily
> moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected..."
>
> So if the governing authority in the OP's jurisdiction is the 2005 (or
> earlier) Code and not 2008, he apparently has no worries.
I would replace the GFCI with a single (not duplex) 15A receptacle. If
at some point in the future (like a home inspection) this is flagged it
is not that hard to reinstall a GFCI.
I would call 7 1/2 feet high not "readily accessible". If it was
installed before the 2008 NEC and is a single receptacle it should be
compliant now. (And who is to say if a single receptacle is not what was
installed.)
Or if you are having any electrical work inspected, ask the inspector if
they would theoretically approve a single receptacle in that case. If
they would, have it inspected. An inspector has discretion to modify
what is required, and this is a reasonable modification. If passed, it
IMHO is compliant in the future.
--
bud--
Jay-T
> To the O/P
>
> does the pump trip the GFI whenever the pump is underwater, or only
> during the on/off surge?
I am the OP. I do not know for sure when the sump pump trips the GFCI. I
own the property but another family lives there, not me. When I checked the
basement recently, there was water in the basement in the sump pump area,
about 1-2 inches above the floor level. There was no power to the sump
pump, and resetting the GFCI made the pump turn on and it pumped out all of
the water without tripping the GFCI again.
The sump pump is on a dedicated circuit that goes directly from the main
panel (on its own 15-amp breaker) to the GFCI receptacle in the ceiling.
Nothing else is on that circuit -- no switches, no receptacles, etc.
The sump pump had been there for 3+ years and used to be plugged into a
regular, non-GFCI, outlet elsewhere in the basement with an extension cord.
During those 3 years, it never failed to work.
The new dedicated sump pump circuit with the ceiling GFCI outlet above the
sump pump was installed 6 months ago by a licensed electrician. I guess it
is possible that the pump tripped the GFCI some time during the last 6
months and no one noticed it. The family that lives there rarely goes into
the basement and may not have thought to check the basement for water after
a rain. But, my guess is that the GFCI was tripped more recently.
Jay-T
> "Jay-T" <Ja...@eyurtiohgf.ghj> wrote in message
>>
>> I guess I could do the second option of cutting the plug off and hard
>> wiring it. But, I would have to figure out how to do that because
>> the sump pump I have has a plug with two cords going into it -- I
>> assume one is power to the pump and the other is from the float
>> switch. If I did that approach, would I have to have a shut-off
>> switch added to the circuit, or would the dedicated sump pump
>> circuit breaker be sufficient to serve as the shut-off?
> It would require a means of disconnect within 50 feet of the pump and
> within sight of it. You could also install a lock on the circuit
> breaker.
Good, the main panel is less than 30 feet away and in direct sight of the
sump pump. The dedicated sump pump circuit breaker is very clearly marked
and is at the bottom of the panel away from the other circuit breakers. So,
I assume that would serve as the disconnect. I would rather do that than
have another switch somewhere that someone could accidentally turn off or
turn off intentionally and forget to turn it back on.
I would still have to figure out how the wiring in the sump pump plug is set
up. It's a molded plug and two cords go into it -- one from the back and
one from the side. I am guessing that the cord that ges into the side of
the plug is a switch loop coming up from the float, but I don't know. I
would have to figure that out if I decided to cut the plug off and hard wire
the sump pump.
Jay-T
Thanks. The sump pump is on its own circuit and nothing else is on that
circuit -- no sitches, no outlets, etc.
Jay-T
>> I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated
>> 15-amp 120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling,
>> and it is a duplex GFCI receptacle.
>>
>> The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the
>> basement flooded.
>>
>> Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the
>> National Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the
>> ceiling about 7 1/2 feet from the floor?
>>
>> Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a
>> single receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with
>> the NEC?
>
>
> *The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
> receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their
> location be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because
> people will plug things in no matter where the receptacle is and what
> it is for. I have seen plenty of extension cords hanging from garage
> ceilings to agree with the requirement that garage door opener
> receptacles be GFI protected.
> Unfortunately that does present a problem as you found out the hard
> way. I suggest that you write to the NFPA about your personal
> experience in this case.
If I figure out who the NFPA is, and what their contact/mailing information
is, I may just do that.
> My thought is that there should be another type of receptacle for the
> sump pump such as a twist lock without GFI protection. That would
> make the receptacle unavailable for general use and keep it for sump
> pump use only and thus eliminate the potential damage from nuisance
> tripping. If GFI protection is required for the pump, an equipment
> GFI can be installed along with the twist lock receptacle. An
> equipment GFI does not have the same low threshold for tripping as
> the one used for people protection and consequently is less prone to
> nuisance tripping.
I think that is a good suggestion. It makes sense and it solves the problem
that is intended to be solved by the new NEC. Maybe you could write to the
NFPA too and submit your suggestion to them.
In terms of safety, one problem with the latest code for sump pumps in
unfinished basements is that the GFCI could cause the pump to fail and the
basement to flood. Then, there would be the newly-created hazard of someone
walking in the water and accidentally coming into contact with any
electrical power source in the basement.
Jay-T
>
> I would replace the GFCI with a single (not duplex) 15A receptacle. If
> at some point in the future (like a home inspection) this is flagged
> it is not that hard to reinstall a GFCI.
I am having a little trouble figuring out the "single (not duplex) 15A
receptacle" option.
When I do a search for single 15-amp receptacles, all I see are receptacles
that have differently-shaped holes for the plug to go into -- there is a
ground hole and then 2 flat slots that are in the same line, not parallel
with each other. So, I would need a different style plug than the standard
one that is now on the sump pump.
Meanwhile, I can find a single 20-amp receptacle that has a slightly
different configuration than a standard 15-amp plug, but it looks like a
standard plug could go into it (I don't know if that's true). But, then I
would have a receptacle that looks like it is for a 20-amp circuit, but the
existing sump pump circuit is on a 15-amp circuit breaker. I would have to
go to the property and check, but I suspect that since it is a dedicated
15-amp circuit that is only for, and only connected to, the sump pump, it
probably is wired with 14/2 wire not 12/2 wire.
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
If the area is an unfinished area/workshop, then the exception to the
rule would seem to apply, if I read earlier posts correctly.
RBM
"Jay-T" <JayT@xkljcvbnm,.lkm> wrote in message
>as you suspected, a two wire cord going to the float, pretty self
>explanatory
RBM
"Doug Miller" <spam...@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:hgdfa9$sbo$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
To be technically correct, he may then have to install additional outlets,
as per habitable rooms rules
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>> There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
>> single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
>> circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
>
>Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.
So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
receptacle.
>I would call 7 1/2 feet high not "readily accessible".
So would the Code -- the definition of "readily accessible" includes not
needing portable ladders to reach it.
Doug Miller
>John Grabowski wrote:
>> Unfortunately that does present a problem as you found out the hard
>> way. I suggest that you write to the NFPA about your personal
>> experience in this case.
>
>If I figure out who the NFPA is, and what their contact/mailing information
>is, I may just do that.
NFPA = National Fire Protection Agency.
www.nfpa.org
RickH
My new home passed without it in 1998, things may have changed.
I personally would not want any critical piece of equipment like that
on a GFCI. Mkes no sense, its in the hole anyway.
Congoleum Breckenridge
If the Sump Pump or Freezer have 3-wire grounded cords, the shouldn't
need a GFCI anyway.
My Sump Pump and all three refrigerator/freezers are on non-GFCI outlets.
Steve Barker
>
>> It's not done by the appliance, but the receptacle location. The NEC
>> requires all outlets in unfinished parts of basements to be GFCI
>> protected.
Unless it is a dedicated SINGLE outlet. Sump pumps CAN'T be on GFCI's.
ransley
> I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
> 120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
> duplex GFCI receptacle.
>
> The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
> flooded.
>
> Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
> Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
> feet from the floor?
>
> Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
> receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?
You already flooded so you know the answer. Dont use one on a frige or
sump pump.
RBM
"Steve Barker" <ichase...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AaGdna09Uv0JYrfW...@giganews.com...
The NEC no longer has any exceptions
John Grabowski
*I had the same problem several months ago trying to find a 15 amp, 120 volt
single receptacle. My usual supply house doesn't stock them anymore and
apparently Home Depot does not or was out of stock at the time. I wound up
going to another supply house that had them. They are available, but you
may have to look more. The fifteen amp that you found is for 220 volts and
you should not put a 20 amp single there.
John Grabowski
"Jay-T" <JayT@xkljcvbnm,.lkm> wrote in message
> John Grabowski wrote:
>>> I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated
>>> 15-amp 120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling,
>>> and it is a duplex GFCI receptacle.
>>>
>>> The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the
>>> basement flooded.
>>>
>>> Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the
>>> National Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the
>>> ceiling about 7 1/2 feet from the floor?
>>>
>>> Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a
>>> single receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with
>>> the NEC?
>>
>>
>> *The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
>> receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their
>> location be GFI protected. This apparently was changed because
>> people will plug things in no matter where the receptacle is and what
>> it is for. I have seen plenty of extension cords hanging from garage
>> ceilings to agree with the requirement that garage door opener
>> receptacles be GFI protected.
>> Unfortunately that does present a problem as you found out the hard
>> way. I suggest that you write to the NFPA about your personal
>> experience in this case.
>
> If I figure out who the NFPA is, and what their contact/mailing
> information is, I may just do that.
The pertinent article in NFPA 70 is 210.8 and you can submit your suggestion
on the form below:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/CodesStandards/NFPAProposalForm.doc
Jay-T
Thanks. I'll keep looking around.
> The fifteen amp that
> you found is for 220 volts and you should not put a 20 amp single
> there.
Oops.
Jay-T
>> "Jay-T" <JayT@xkljcvbnm,.lkm> wrote >>> If I figure out who the NFPA is,
>> information is, I may just do that.
>
> The pertinent article in NFPA 70 is 210.8 and you can submit your
> suggestion on the form below:
> http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/CodesStandards/NFPAProposalForm.doc
>
Thanks. I'll do the form and submit it. I'm not going to try to create the
actual suggested wording. I'll just write something that explains what my
suggestion is and why.
bud--
> In article <a94d9$4b2a54f9$cde8d59b$15...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
>>> single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
>>> circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
>>
>> Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.
>
> So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
> receptacle.
>
You usually have good advice. This one isn't.
The pump, float switch or line cords designed for 20A may not fail
safely when operated on a 30A circuit. In addition to higher current
the trip time can be longer. I would particularly wonder about the line
cords.
A smart person uses UL listed equipment.
--
bud--
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <a94d9$4b2a54f9$cde8d59b$15...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, bud--
> <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to "125-volt,
>
>>>> single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
>>>> circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
> >>
>>> Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.
>>
>> So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
>> receptacle.
>>
>
>You usually have good advice. This one isn't.
>
>The pump, float switch or line cords designed for 20A may not fail
>safely when operated on a 30A circuit.
I've got news for you: the line cord on a sump pump isn't "designed for 20A".
Go have a look at one. Tell me what gauge the conductors are.
Dan Lanciani
Is GFCI protection required for 15A or 20A 220V outlets?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jules
>>The pertinent article in NFPA 70 is 210.8 and you can submit your suggestion
>>on the form below:
>>http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/CodesStandards/NFPAProposalForm.doc
>>
>>
... and the world ends in 2012. Crap. ;-)
RBM
"Dan Lanciani" <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote in message
news:135...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
No, just 125 volt. Not a bad idea. The OP can rewire the circuit for 240
volt, change the outlet, and pump, and he's off to the races
bud--
The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt. That
means, for instance, that the conductors will survive the available
fault current for the time until a 20A breaker/fuse will open. That is
why you can have 18ga extension cords on a 20A ckt. I wouldn't bet that
is true on a 30A breaker, which may have a higher fault current or will
take a lot longer to trip at the same fault current.
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <6f2d4$4b2bbc48$cde8d5a3$23...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, bud--
> <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> In article <a94d9$4b2a54f9$cde8d59b$15...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, bud--
>>> <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>>>> There's another workaround: the GFCI requirement applies only to
> "125-volt,
>>>>>> single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles." So install a 30-amp
>>>>>> circuit and receptacle, and change the plug on the sump pump.
>>>>> Then it is not UL listed - it was designed and tested on a 20A ckt.
>>>> So what? It's not a Code violation to plug unlisted equipment into a
>>>> receptacle.
>>>>
>>> You usually have good advice. This one isn't.
>>>
>>> The pump, float switch or line cords designed for 20A may not fail
>>> safely when operated on a 30A circuit.
>>
>> I've got news for you: the line cord on a sump pump isn't "designed for 20A".
>
>> Go have a look at one. Tell me what gauge the conductors are.
> >
>
>The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt.
Go have a look at the line cord on a sump pump. Tell me what gauge the
conductors are.
Doug Miller
>The line cords are designed to be safe to operate on a 20A ckt. That
>means, for instance, that the conductors will survive the available
>fault current for the time until a 20A breaker/fuse will open. That is
>why you can have 18ga extension cords on a 20A ckt. I wouldn't bet that
>is true on a 30A breaker, which may have a higher fault current or will
>take a lot longer to trip at the same fault current.
You're obviously another one of those misguided souls who believes that
breakers are there to protect the stuff that's plugged in to the receptacles.
Repeat after me: Breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring.
Breakers are there to protect the branch circuit wiring. Breakers are there to
protect the branch circuit wiring. Breakers are there to protect the branch
circuit wiring.
The Daring Dufas
Hummm, is that true of GFCI and arc fault breakers too? I be scared 'O
lectwisity. Dat's why I don't be messin wit nuttin over 13.8kv.
TDD
Doug Miller
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:29:38 GMT, spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>(2) Fixture Wire. Fixture wire shall be permitted to be tapped to the
>branch-circuit conductor of a branch circuit in accordance with the
>following:
>(1) 20-ampere circuits � 18 AWG, up to 15 m (50 ft) of run length
>(2) 20-ampere circuits � 16 AWG, up to 30 m (100 ft) of run length
>(3) 20-ampere circuits � 14 AWG and larger
>(4) 30-ampere circuits � 14 AWG and larger
Does not apply. We're talking about a cord-and-plug connection. A line cord is
*not* "fixture wire".
Grumpy
Yes we need some type of guidance but some of codes are so stupid
and unusable it is not funny it is ridicules.
Because some dumb bastard did something stupid got self kill,
then they punished all of people by putting some nuisance code
that all rest of us got to pay for it and those are facts, the system in
this
Country is that it don't make any since. I do not care if any one agree with
me or not, over 40 years working for industry I seen it all.
But then again their are some license Electricians doing such slapy work
I would not just take their license, but put them in jail for few years.
"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7ouugqF...@mid.individual.net...
>> The latest code edition now requires that all unfinished basement
>> receptacles as well as all garage receptacles regardless of their
>> location > be GFI protected.
>>
>
> Not in Oregon. There are local amendments to this rule and a GFCI is not
> required on a sump pump (in Oregon).
>
> Check with your local electrical inspector.
>
Jay-T
>> "Dan Lanciani" <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote in message
>>
>>
> No, just 125 volt. Not a bad idea. The OP can rewire the circuit for
> 240 volt, change the outlet, and pump, and he's off to the races.
Thanks. I did read something about that on an old forum when I did an
Internet search prior to my original post. I guess the concept is that the
purpose of the GFCI's in unfinished basements is to prevent ordinary users
from a shock hazard if they unplug an appliance or device (including a sump
pump) and use the receptacle for another purpose. And, I guess they assume
that would not apply for a 220-volt receptacle.
Although that means I could change the whole circuit wiring to 220 volts,
and get a new 220-volt sump pump, I don't plan on doing that. One reason is
that if somehow the 220-volt is safe enough according to NEC for the actual
use of the sump pump (without unplugging it and plugging something else in),
then that would be no more safe than me just changing the 110-volt GFCI
outlet to a non-GFCI outlet (as long as no one unplugs that and plugs
something else in).
So, I guess I'll either cheat and change the existing GFCI to a non-GFCI
outlet, or I'll hard wire it since it is less than 30 feet away from, and in
direct line of sight with, the main panel circuit breaker for the sump pump.
bud--
That ignores what I wrote.
Using time-trip curves for SquareD, and based on over 1500 field
measurements made by UL, a short circuit at the end of a 6' #18 line
cord plugged into a branch circuit is very likely to trip a 15 or 20A
breaker on "instantaneous". In all cases the breaker would trip in 3
seconds and in that case the fault current was 80A.
In fact, breakers do provide significant protection for "the stuff that
is plugged in to the receptacles". Why do you think the NEC has the tap
rules that were provided by gfretwell?
And GFCIs and AFCIs increase the protection for "the stuff that is
plugged in to the receptacles".
David Dini from UL has written "The branch circuit overcurrent
protective device (OCPD), (i.e. a fuse or circuit breaker), is
specifically designed to protect electrical circuits, including the
branch circuit conductors and flexible cords, against the unwanted
effects of overcurrents."
------------
Regarding your kludge of the sump pump on a 30A circuit - if the pump
was UL labeled (highly likely) it is a code violation under 110.3-B.
Your point of a 30A circuit was to avoid a code violation.
--
bud--
RBM
"Jay-T" <JayT@xkljcvbnm,.lkm> wrote in message
>
>This is the point that John Grabowski was making. For things like essential
>pumps, we should be able to use something like a twist lok outlet and plug.
>This would prevent improper use of a non gfci protected outlet
Jay-T
news.eternal-september.org
Jay-T <Ja...@eyurtiohgf.ghj> typed:
Good point; thanks.
--
--
Live in the moment;
be open to the possibilities
that life has to offer.
gary.j....@gmail.com
> I have a sump pump in an unfinished basement. It is on a dedicated 15-amp
> 120-volt circuit, the outlet/receptacle is on the ceiling, and it is a
> duplex GFCI receptacle.
>
> The sump pump failed because the GFCI receptacle tripped, and the basement
> flooded.
>
> Are sump pumps required to have a GFCI receptacle according the National
> Electrical Code (NEC) even if the receptacle is on the ceiling about 7 1/2
> feet from the floor?
>
> Could I change the receptacle from a duplex GFCI receptacle to a single
> receptacle that is not GFCI, and still be in compliance with the NEC?
http://ecmweb.com/quizzes/code-quiz-gfci-protection-personnel?page=2
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
circuit, and / or B) - on a GFCI????
And with a ceiling mounted plug for the sump pump, nothing less than a
twist-lock should even be considered - - - -Either an L5-15 or L5-20
Percival P. Cassidy
years ago...
What about a duplex outlet supplying both the 120V sump pump and the
charger for the battery-powered backup pump? Does that circuit need a
GFCI breaker?
Perce
John G
John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV
Robert Green
> Article 620.85 applies to elevators, dumbwaiters, and escalators. The
> sump pump that is referred to is one that might be located in a pit
> under this type of equipment, NOT in a residence.
from the Mike Holt archives. Since it deals with dwellings, I assume this
is the relevant section (sump pumps at very end):
https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/GFCIProtection4Personnel~20020105.htm
Dwelling Units
210.8 Ground-Fault Protection
(A) Dwelling Units. (1) Bathroom Area Receptacles. GFCI protection is
required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a
dwelling unit. Figure 8
a.. Author's Comment: Proposals to allow receptacles for dedicated
equipment in the bathroom area to be exempted from the GFCI protection rules
were rejected because the code panel members felt that it was not in the
interest of safety to allow appliances without GFCI protection in this area.
(2) Garage and Accessory Building Receptacles. GFCI protection is required
for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in garages and grade-level portions of
unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of
a dwelling unit. Figure 9
Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for the garage
door opener.
Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.
a.. Author's Comment: Receptacles are not required in accessory buildings,
but if a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle is installed, it must be
GFCI-protected. Figure 10
(3) Outdoor Receptacles. All 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outdoors of
dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs
shall be GFCI-protected. Figure 11
a.. Author's Comment: Receptacles are not required outdoors of a
multifamily dwelling, but if a 15A or 20A, 125V receptacle is installed, it
must be GFCI-protected. Figure 12
Exception: GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting
or deicing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are
supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28. Figure 13
(4) Crawl Space Receptacles. All 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed
within a dwelling unit crawl space must be GFCI-protected.
a.. Author's Comment: The Code does not require a 15A or 20A, 125V
receptacle to be installed in the crawl space, except when air-conditioning
or heating equipment is installed in this area, see 210.63.
(5) Unfinished Basement Receptacles. GFCI protection is required for all 15A
and 20A, 125V receptacles in each unfinished portion of a basement not
intended as a habitable room, but used for storage or as a work area. Figure
14
Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.
Micky
<robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote:
>
>Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
require GFCI?
>dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
>cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.
pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.
Robert Green
news:acqm6b99fr540r1gq...@4ax.com...
sump pump outlet with a single twist lock outlet and plug so that if someone
decided to use that outlet for something else, it would be incompatible with
normal plugs. Whether they would remember to reconnect the twist lock plug
to the outlet after discovering that fact is anyone's guess. (-:
--
Bobby G.
gfre...@aol.com
Google search. Those exceptions were eliminated in 2008.
gfre...@aol.com
>"Micky" <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>news:acqm6b99fr540r1gq...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:12 -0500, "Robert Green"
>> <robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
>>
>> Does this mean it can have a double-receptacle? And still not
>> require GFCI?
>>
>> >dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
>> >cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.
>>
>> My house was clearly designed with a receptacle right next to the sump
>> pump. But it's a two outlet receptacle.
>
>Good question. My own inclination would be to replace that dedicated duplex
>sump pump outlet with a single twist lock outlet and plug so that if someone
>decided to use that outlet for something else, it would be incompatible with
>normal plugs. Whether they would remember to reconnect the twist lock plug
>to the outlet after discovering that fact is anyone's guess. (-:
are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
pump.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
circuit and should be exempt from GFCI requirement. Using the
twistlock connections makes it unlikely that anything else might be
plugged into the circuit.
Not 100% sure of code requirements, but is how I would do it if I had
a house with a sump pump.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
install twist-lock receptacles and plugs to make it clear it is
DEDICATED to the specialized equipment with the matching plugs.
(assuming there are no other outlets or devices on the circuit)
gfre...@aol.com
US those "dedicated outlet" exceptions are all gone and have been for
the last 3 cycles. The only exceptions now are for "ice melting
equipment" outside and alarm systems inside (basements crawl spaces
etc)
Micky
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> >Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
> >not readily accessible.
> >
> >Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
> >dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
> >cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.
> >
>
>
> You have to be careful when you look at just anything that pops on a
> Google search. Those exceptions were eliminated in 2008.
So does that mean a sump pump *has* to be on a GFCI? I can see some
seriously bad results arising from putting a sump pump (or a refrigerator)
on a GFCI. Having said that, I haven't had a nuisance trip from a GFCI in
quite some time and I now wonder if the refrigerator that was causing the
trips wasn't actually suffering from real current leakage.
--
Bobby G.
>
John G
trader_4
> <gfre...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> <stuff snipped>
>
> > >Exception No. 1: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are
> > >not readily accessible.
> > >
> > >Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
> > >dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
> > >cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.
> > >
> >
> >
> > You have to be careful when you look at just anything that pops on a
> > Google search. Those exceptions were eliminated in 2008.
>
> Indeed. Looking more closely that article appears to be from 2002. My bad.
>
> So does that mean a sump pump *has* to be on a GFCI?
Robert Green
news:bnan6b5t4jbgu1hsl...@4ax.com...
<stuff snipped>
> All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
> are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
> pump.
be used for both 110 and 220v applications. I see them listed for 110v use:
Leviton 2311 Locking Plug, 20A, 125V, L5-20P, 2P3W
https://www.platt.com/platt-electric-supply/Nema-Twistlock-Plugs-20-Amp-Plugs/Leviton/2311/product.aspx?zpid=161638
Whether or not the NEC approves of them for 120v applications is another
story I am not able to comment on other than I use them in several places in
my house and as I recall, they passed inspection (quite some time ago).
I made the suggestion re: twist locks to specifically deal with someone who
might unplug the sump pump to use for say a vacuum cleaner and then forgets
to reconnect the sump. Having once had a cleaning lady who plugged a 10A
cannister vac into a UPS outlet, there's merit in preventing people from
doing things like that. (-:
Or, as I reread what you wrote, are you saying that a 240v pump obviates the
need for a GFCI?
--
Bobby G.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
there and wired before the exemptions dissappeared the exemption still
stands - and doing as I suggested WILL pass a "condition inspection"
I just had a "condition inspection", called an "e-safe" for insurance
purposes here last month, and up here they have complicated things.
The ESA (Electrical safety Authority)enforces the common electrical
code, which would grandfather GFCI and AF requirements, but the new
e-safe regulations are implemented under the CSA (Canadian Standards
Association) which over-rides the code and requires GFCI for all
outlets within 6 feet of a faucet or sink and all exterior outlets
under something like 8 feet (2.5 meters) from the ground.
Unfinished basements and attached garages (not sure about detatched
since I don't have one) do not require GFCI and nor do "dedicated
outlets" for refrigerators and other devices - which do not need to be
"dedicated circuits"
So, on one circuit with a bathroom outlet, a refrigerator and an
outdoor outlet, there are 2 GFCI outlets and one standard outlet on
the same circuit.
This passed E-Safe inspection in November (and yes, I did need to pull
a permit to install the GFCI outlets)
Up here ANY work on aluminum wire, including like for like
replacements of switches, outlets, and luminaires requires a permit.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
moisture on the compressor start cap will trip the GFCI.(particularly
if it is a metal can) Older fridges and frezers had metal can caps.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote:
><gfre...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:bnan6b5t4jbgu1hsl...@4ax.com...
>
><stuff snipped>
>
>> All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
>> are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
>> pump.
>
>I am not sure I understand your comment. Twist locks, in my experience, can
>be used for both 110 and 220v applications. I see them listed for 110v use:
>
>Leviton 2311 Locking Plug, 20A, 125V, L5-20P, 2P3W
>
>https://www.platt.com/platt-electric-supply/Nema-Twistlock-Plugs-20-Amp-Plugs/Leviton/2311/product.aspx?zpid=161638
>
>Whether or not the NEC approves of them for 120v applications is another
>story I am not able to comment on other than I use them in several places in
>my house and as I recall, they passed inspection (quite some time ago).
>
voltage and current, all having specific NEMA configuration numbers
which I included in my original recommendation - so yes, twist locks
ARE allowed by the NEC for 120 volt use.
>might unplug the sump pump to use for say a vacuum cleaner and then forgets
>to reconnect the sump. Having once had a cleaning lady who plugged a 10A
>cannister vac into a UPS outlet, there's merit in preventing people from
>doing things like that. (-:
>
>Or, as I reread what you wrote, are you saying that a 240v pump obviates the
>need for a GFCI?
Roger Blake
> All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
> are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
> pump.
pump disabled due to the GFCI tripping. If it came down to it I'd
temporarily install a GFCI receptacle for an "inspection" then remove
it afterwards.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)
NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zak W
@news.eternal-september.org:
> On 2015-12-12, gfre...@aol.com <gfre...@aol.com> wrote:
>> All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
>> are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
>> pump.
>
> I really don't give a damn if it's "required" - I don't want the sump
> pump disabled due to the GFCI tripping. If it came down to it I'd
> temporarily install a GFCI receptacle for an "inspection" then remove
> it afterwards.
>
critical applications. We were fine without GFIs on sump pumps for 75
years, and all of a sudden our lives depend on having a GFI? I don't think
so. How many people have you heard about getting electrocuted by their
fridge or sump pump?
Just more bullshit regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?
gfre...@aol.com
and they do have internal shorts in the compressor. I put them on a 2
to 3 adapter, the old one with the pigtail and put a scope with a
current probe on the pigtail. There is definitely current spiking on
the ground. It is not enough to trip a breaker but it does trip the
GFCI
If you cut open the freon line, you will smell the burnt freon.
gfre...@aol.com
<robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote:
>Or, as I reread what you wrote, are you saying that a 240v pump obviates the
>need for a GFCI?
>
>--
>Bobby G.
>
need for a GFCI but it only applies to 15 & 20a 120v receptacles
>
>
>
>
>
>
Robert Green
news:oqeo6b58o14qccup9...@4ax.com...
all 240v gear and the 120v outlets that are ceiling mounted and power
specific items (not necessarily dedicated but items like a radial arm saw).
FWIW, I saw my first twist lock connector on an old portable tube radio
circa 1940 my dad had that had two different types of batteries and came in
a folding wood case. He had rigged up some sort of AC power for the unit
using a twist-lock connector which kind of negated its portability. As I
recall the price of the high voltage battery made operating the unit an
expensive proposition. Replaced many years later by one of the first Sony
shirt-pocket portable AM radios powered by a more affordable 9vdc cell.
--
Bobby G.
Robert Green
news:2015121...@news.eternal-september.org...
> > All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they
> > are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v
> > pump.
>
> I really don't give a damn if it's "required" - I don't want the sump
> pump disabled due to the GFCI tripping. If it came down to it I'd
> temporarily install a GFCI receptacle for an "inspection" then remove
> it afterwards.
"growing up." I had a lot of nuisance trips using some Slater GFCI's I got
at Hechinger's (George should know them!).
I've got Leviton 20A GFCI's just about everywhere and haven't had one trip
since the gardener tried to repair the extension cord he had just
hedge-clippered in half with a pen-knife and masking tape. Needless to say
he failed his audition . . .
I can see the sump being on a non-GFCI outlet when no one's home. However,
the combination of water, electricity and many times sloppy Chinese pump
manufacturing still make me want the protection of a GFCI on anything that
contacts groundwater. I would run it a long time "under test" to make sure
I could trust it if we were away on vacation.
--
Bobby G.
Robert Green
> Just more bullshit regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
> Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?
coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons
drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! <sarcasm alert>
On a serious note, I assume GFCI's have saved *some* lives but I've yet to
come up with a site that even hazards a guess how many lives have been
saved. One site said "countless" and that might be the closest estimate
because it seems no one has counted them. Even harder to come by seem to be
any figures relating the number of nuisance trips one can expect. My own
anecdotal evidence strongly suggests nuisance trips are much reduced from
GFCI designs of ten years ago, but it's just one data point. Where's Danny
D? If anyone could find those numbers, I'd bet on him. I seem to recall
others here making similar observations about decreasing nuisance trip
rates.
I suspect that the NEC has been changed to reflect the better designs of
modern GFCIs as the exceptions to where they are not needed seem to be
disappearing.
--
Bobby G.
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> There are specific twist lock configurations for each combination of
> voltage and current, all having specific NEMA configuration numbers
> which I included in my original recommendation - so yes, twist locks
> ARE allowed by the NEC for 120 volt use.
remember) that I believed to be codeworthy when installed. Thanks.
--
Bobby G.
gfre...@aol.com
<robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote:
>"Zak W" <Za...@gmail9.com> wrote in message
>
>> Just more bullshit regulations, like which way to mount a 120v receptacle?
>> Ground-hole up or down? How about if it's mounted on a ceiling?
>
>Everyone knows it's ground-hole pointed south to take advantage of the
>coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons
>drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! <sarcasm alert>
>
code language about it. On argument is if the ground is up and the
cover comes loose it will hit the ground pin but that is not enough to
drive a code change.
There also does not seem to be any consensus of how the cord should
hang (pin up or down ref the direction of the cord on a flat plug) I
have examples of both here.
The only thing that is somewhat a convention is that switched
receptacles are installed in the opposite orientation from the
unswitched ones. That makes sense as long as the user understands it.
Uncle Monster
[8~{} Uncle Short Monster
cl...@snyder.on.ca
practice of "splitting" an outlet and switching only one half -
allowing you yo use the outlet for something that stays on as well as
a lamp you switch - all in the same box.
gfre...@aol.com
than the rest, whether that is "half hot" or the whole thing.
Then the question is which one do you switch?
I like the logic that the top is hot and the bottom switched since
that will usually be the lamp you don't move around and the top is
available for portable equipment.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
>
>[8~{} Uncle Short Monster
It would APPEAR they are intended to be installd ground down, as the
embossed printing in the plastic front is right side up in that
orientation.
Here in Ontario I would venture to guess over 90% are installed U
down, neutral left.
Paint...@unlisted.moc
<mrelect...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Exception No. 2: GFCI protection is not required for a receptacle on a
>> dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a specific
>> cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.
>
>Yeah these are the old rules. Most of the exceptions have been eliminated in
>the 2011 and 2014 code updates.
was eliminated. And I did work for an electrician years ago, so I do
support following the code. But I think the code has gone overboard in
recent years and some of their rules are senseless nit-picking, and a
few are downright wrong.
If a GFCI is now required on a sump pump, THIS is WRONG.....
Granted, safety for people should come above and beyond protecting
property, but there are situations where they need to look at common
sense. This is one of them. A person is more likely to get electrocuted
in a flooded basement, than one that is not flooded, because a sump pump
is keeping the basement dry.
When I lived in a house that had a sump pump, I ALWAYS UNPLUGGED IT,
when I was doing maintanance on it, such as cleaning the pit. Whenever
an electrical cord enters water, a person should uplug the cord before
contacting the water. That's just common sense. Yet, it seems our
schools dont teach stuff like that anymore, and we now live in a society
full of idiots..... That apparently is why the code keps getting
changed.
However, there are two instances where I will NOT use a GFCI. A
Refrigerator/freezer and a Sump Pump. You can move the fridge to a place
that dont require a GFCI, but you cant move a sump pump. However, there
are cheating methods. You can get a 14ga (or heavier) extension cord and
plug the sump pump into an outlet located on the first floor of the
house, rather than in the basement. Or just install a non-GFCI outlet on
the ceiling above the pump, label it "SUMP PUMP ONLY - DO NOT UNPLUG",
and if the inspectors come, tell them it was like that when you moved
in. It's not like they are going to put you in jail for it. The worse
they can do is make you install a GFCI. Many inspectors wont even notice
it, if your electrical system is in decent shape.
I'm not going to risk flooding my basement over a code rule that is not
in the best interest, and should be changed.....
Sometimes consumers need to speak up as well as electricians when it
comes to these codes. Just because it's written in a book, dont mean
it's correct....
---
I should make mention that many years ago, I lived in a house that was
prone to basement flooding. After a heavy rain, that sump pump ran
continuous for days. If it plugged up with debris, or failed for any
reason, that basement would quickly flood, and by "flood" I mean it
could get as deep as 6 feet of water. (bottom of basement windows). One
time there was a power outage, by the time the power company turned the
power back on, there was about 5ft of water. When the power came back
on, the sump pump did not run, because the wash machine, furnace and
other stuff in the basement was under water and had tripped some
breakers when the power came back on. The breaker box was in the
basement and water was close to that box. There was no way to shut off
the power without going into the basement. Swimming thru a flooded
basement did not bother me, but doing so in a basement with electric
devices under that water did bother me a lot.
I went outside, cut the band, and removed the electric meter. Then I
swam thru the basement, turned off all breakers, except one for the
upstairs. Then I tossed the sump pump cord out a basement window,
plugged it into an extension cord, and plugged it in to an upstairs
outlet, and replaced the meter. I phoned the power company, told them
what I did, and they were understanding.
I was glad when I moved from that place. Dealing with the basement
flooding was a constant struggle...
I dont have a basement now, nor a permanent sump pump. But I do have a
portable sump pump that I may occasionally need to pump out the pit
where my well pressure tank sits, or other farm related things that need
to be pumped out. If I plug that sump pump into a GFCI it trips
immediately. Yet the pump works fine. I just mke sure it's plugged into
a non-GFCI outlet and dont make bodily contact with the water while it's
running. I have checked the pump, it appears normal, but I think a
little moisture gets into the switch, which is what causes a GFCI to
trip. Otherwise I dont know why it trips the GFCI....
Paint...@unlisted.moc
>This passed E-Safe inspection in November (and yes, I did need to pull
>a permit to install the GFCI outlets)
>Up here ANY work on aluminum wire, including like for like
>replacements of switches, outlets, and luminaires requires a permit.
safety to get their hands into your wallet and fill their own pockets.
They know that some people will actually be stupid enough to buy the
permit. But think about this.... How are they going to know if you
replaced an outlet or switch??? Unless they have detailed photos of
every room in your home, they wont even know if you change a light
fixture.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
inspection but did not install the GFCIs because electrician said I
didn't need to (very recent change) - so I needed a permit to get the
re-inspection. First inspector was very understanding and granted me a
no fee permit and no re-inspection fee.
Micky
<robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote:
>
>I can see the sump being on a non-GFCI outlet when no one's home. However,
>the combination of water, electricity and many times sloppy Chinese pump
>manufacturing still make me want the protection of a GFCI on anything that
>contacts groundwater. I would run it a long time "under test" to make sure
>I could trust it if we were away on vacation.
foot above the water, the motor and the swich and anything else.
Micky
>Or just install a non-GFCI outlet on
>the ceiling
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
from being connected to the circuit, and prevent having to rout cords
across the floor and up walls to an outlet.
Micky
and the big room wasn't used for anything. I wonder if it has a sump
pump yet, or if they did anythign to keep it dry in the first place.