Water pressure booster pump won't start consistently - do you rebuild the bearings?

[Arlen Holder]

My outdoor water pressure booster pump occasionally won't start,
particularly after doing some irrigation watering.

It never happened before under those circumstances, but it happened twice
in the past week - where letting it sit with the breakers turned off for an
hour and then turning the breakers back on seems to "fix" it temporarily.

The booster pump works for weeks if I don't irrigate - but if I do - the
booster has failed to start twice - once I heard screeching sounds until I
shut the breakers - but this last time I heard nothing.

Then for weeks, it works fine - with normal sounds.

I'm perplexed - but the first thing I'm assuming is that it's heating up
due to bearings - I'm not sure if that's the case - but the screeching wsa
something - even if I don't hear it now.

Do you guys with wells periodically rebuild your water pressure pump?
This one could be as old as from the 80s.

[Uncle Monster]

Have you considered calling a plumber? O_o

[8~{} Uncle Curious Monster

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

> Have you considered calling a plumber?

You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, are:
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
the plate on the motor:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg>
General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
<http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx>

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
<https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup>

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg>

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6584167pressure06.jpg>

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg>

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
<https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf>

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, are:
1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

[trader_4]

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 8:37:09 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 13 Aug 2018 16:37:22 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:
>
> > Have you considered calling a plumber?
>
> You're joking, right?
>
> My main questions for those who have experience with such things, are:
> 1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
> 2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
> 3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?
>
> Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in
> this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who
> do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how
> to use a telephone.
>
> Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's
> the plate on the motor:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1473519pressure05.jpg>
> General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
> Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L
>
> I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you
> know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:
> <http://www.flotecpump.com/residentialpage_resource_ts_jetpump.aspx>

IDK why you call it a pressure booster pump instead of just a pump.
It sounds like it's a jet pump and the only one. Jet pumps differ from
a piston pump in that they can bring up water from depths that are lower
than the max lift of a piston pump, which I think is like ~28 ft?
They use two pipes, one pushes water down the well to the other part
of the pump where a jet action picks up water and it comes back on
the other line.

>
> It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost
> impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

Frame size, voltage, speed, hp and maybe if it's suited for a wet location,
etc if it's exposed.

>
> The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:
> <https://www.ge.com/keywords/model-number-lookup>
>
> The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg>
>
> There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to
> look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.

[Uncle Monster]

Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing, control circuits, pressure tanks, etc? If not, you may need to call a professional. It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run. I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what they're doing can cause a lot of damage. I know from experience because of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer. You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and electrical safety. If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Pump Monster

[Dean Hoffman]

70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
pump starting point.

>
> The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg>

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.

Notice the tube
leading away from it.

>
> I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:
> <https://www.l-3.com/private/ieee/Motor%20Protection%20Principles.pdf>
>
> My main questions for those who have experience with such things, are:
> 1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
> 2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
> 3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

I'd probably just replace the entire pump. There will be wear on
the impeller
so it won't be at its most efficient.

[trader_4]

Helpful as usual, I see. It's AHR, he actually asks a home repair question
and first you give him snide remarks, then all kinds of reasons why putting
a new motor on a pump may require a plumber. You didn't answer a single
question he asked. Quite a performance.

[Uncle Monster]

Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever. I didn't see you offering any help. You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Observant Monster

[dpb]

I don't have any experience w/ jet pumps; we're too deep here so
everything is submersible...

But, certainly sounds quite probable is a bearing problem and likely
happens only when you irrigate (so far, the rest is coming) because it's
running nearly if not continuously so doesn't have interval to cool down
between.

Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined
which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?

Is there a manual thermal reset on the pump or is it one of the internal
bimetallics? If there's a red reset button, if it had tripped you'd
have to manually reset; if no external reset then it could have tripped
and but would automatically reset once cooled off. If it's getting this
hot that that's happening, it's time...

If there's a local shop, and you can work out the schedule, I'd probably
take it to him and let him do the bearings unless you've got the
toolset; we've got a really good local shop and for something like this
he would in all likelihood be able to get it in/out in an afternoon if
scheduled it. If he couldn't, would likely have a loaner or the well
folks should.

OTOH, if it's all as old as you say may be, there's something to be said
for new and at your leisure rebuild the old one and you've got a spare... :)

Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no
need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and
service rating are the key items...

The first Q? still is to determine whether it's the motor or the pump
with the problem, however.

--

[Dean Hoffman]

No bearings in the actual pump. They rely on the motor's bearings.

[dpb]

On 8/13/2018 9:21 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> On 8/13/18 9:18 PM, dpb wrote:

...

>> Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined
>> which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?
>
>       No bearings in the actual pump.  They rely on the motor's bearings.
>>

...

I allowed as had no 'spearmints with jet pumps... :)

Thanks.

--

[trader_4]

Why would I do that when I have your sister coming over?

> I didn't see you offering any help.

Wrong yet again, of course.

[Uncle Monster]

Which sister Traitor_4ever pervert? Any of my sisters would kick your ass for being a Liberal Leftist Commiecrat and opening your mouth to them. <snicker> ^_^

> > I didn't see you offering any help.
>
> Wrong yet again, of course.
>

So you solved the guy's problem? I'm sure you didn't give an airborne fornication for the fellow's safety. o_O

> > You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU. ^_^
> >
> > [8~{} Uncle Observant Monster

[8~{} Uncle Gotcha Monster

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 19:21:52 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

> No bearings in the actual pump. They rely on the motor's bearings.

The motor will likely have two standard bearings.

I won't know what to buy until I take the motor apart, but the downtime is
crucial because there won't be water pressure in the house.

I tried to find a parts diagram on the web for the model but I can't find
one yet.
General Electric Jet Pump Motor 5KC39QN1157AX

HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I will call GE tomorrow, where I'm not beholden to GE but if I replace the
bearings, I need to know ahead of time which ones to order.

The real problem first is that I don't know what's wrong, because it's
clearly intermittent.

What's irksome is that I don't understand the sensing pressure mechanism.

It seems to be MISSING a sensing of the OUTPUT pressure at the bladder.

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 19:18:11 GMT, dpb wrote:

> I don't have any experience w/ jet pumps; we're too deep here so
> everything is submersible...

You're the second person to mention this, so I should be very clear that
the well itself is 500 feet deep and it has, AFAIK, its own pump at the
bottom.

Clearly I have separate breakers for the well pump versus the booster pump.
They are two different pumps.

The well pump brings up the water and stores it in tanks that are 10 feet
high. The tanks don't develop enough water pressure for the house, so the
booster pump boosts the pressure for the house.

If the booster pump is off, then there is water that just dribbles out the
faucets in the house. They will dribble for 10,000 gallons, but they just
dribble.

If the booster pump is working, then there is water pressure at the house.
Lots and lots of water pressure (a garden hose shoots dozens of feet).

Suffice to say the booster pump has only one purpose and the well pump has
a different purpose.

> But, certainly sounds quite probable is a bearing problem and likely
> happens only when you irrigate (so far, the rest is coming) because it's
> running nearly if not continuously so doesn't have interval to cool down
> between.

Yes. That's what I think also.
It could be the pressure switch - but that wouldn't "heat up".
The booster pump would heat up.

Although ... I did put my hand on it when it didn't go on, and it wasn't
even warm. But it's inside at the bearings where it matters most.

> Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined
> which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?

Ah. I just answered that (I respond in line). The pump, surprisingly, does
not feel in the least hot the second time this happened. I was there within
whatever time frame it took for the water pressure to be used up, as I was
using the hose at the same time as the irrigation was on.

SO I was probably fifteen or twenty minutes after the pump failed to go on
(or however long it takes to use up the pressure in the big blue bladder).

I was *surprised* that the pump housing wasn't hot in the least.
SO it might be the pressure switch.

I'm not sure what the gauge is reading because the gauge may be reading the
pressure of the 10 foot column of water that is only a few feet behind the
pump.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg>

So the main thing I have to figure out is what that gauge is trying to tell
me.

> Is there a manual thermal reset on the pump or is it one of the internal
> bimetallics?

I looked for a red button, but didn't find any.
I think it's internal.

> If there's a red reset button, if it had tripped you'd
> have to manually reset; if no external reset then it could have tripped
> and but would automatically reset once cooled off. If it's getting this
> hot that that's happening, it's time...

Yup. I agree. It's NOT getting hot, but I'm not sure I got to it in time.
It wasn't even warm though, and pumps are heavy metal, so you'd think
they'd be a heat sink - so I'm not positive that it thermally reset.

That's why I need to troubleshoot. My only indication that it's the pump is
that I heard a squeal which made me immediately shut the breaker. The
squeal stopped - so it was definitely the pump. But that squeal hasn't
happened again and that was a few days ago where the pump has gone on
hundreds of times for sure since then.

> If there's a local shop, and you can work out the schedule, I'd probably
> take it to him and let him do the bearings unless you've got the
> toolset; we've got a really good local shop and for something like this
> he would in all likelihood be able to get it in/out in an afternoon if
> scheduled it. If he couldn't, would likely have a loaner or the well
> folks should.

I've done bearings before. And I've taken things to a local shop before.
In general, in California anyway, it's not worth the labor at $200/hour.

Bearings are cheap. The problem is that every time I take apart an outdoor
motor, the long bolts are so frozen that they snap. This motor is "indoor"
(it's in a shed) so it may be easier. I don't know. But that's the downtime
issue.

The downtime matters because there is no water pressure while the pump is
out of commission.

> OTOH, if it's all as old as you say may be, there's something to be said
> for new and at your leisure rebuild the old one and you've got a spare... :)

That's my plan.
Unless it's the pressure switch.

I have no idea how old it is though.
But it could be the original for all I know.

I think it might NOT be the pump though.
That's why I need to ask how the pressure switch works.

The one thing that perplexes me is that I don't see ANY indication of the
bladder pressure being measured.

It looks like what's being measured is the INPUT pressure to the pump, not
the OUTPUT pressure.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg>

But that makes no sense.
Does it?

> Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no
> need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and
> service rating are the key items...

The "frame" is what matters, I think, as long as it's about 1HP and 3450
RPM, which is the easy part. I'm not sure what the "frame" is though.
Is the "frame" on this sticker?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>

> The first Q? still is to determine whether it's the motor or the pump
> with the problem, however.

Yup. The pump appears to have two switches that control it.
a. The water level indicator relay (which is known to be working fine!)
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg>
b. The booster pressure indicator relay (which is a mystery to me)
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg>

The "mystery" is that there is NOTHING coming out of the booster by way of
pressure sensors that I can see.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>

The gauge seems to be INPUT pressure, but that makes no sense.
Who cares what the input pressure is.
The OUTPUT pressure is what matters, right?

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 18:25:12 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

> 70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
> pump starting point.

Thanks for mentioning that the 70 psi is the shutdown point.
I'm guessing it's measuring that right off the bladder, even though the
gauge is on the pump itself.

Given that the gauge generally reads the same all the time, that 70 psi
"might" also be the pressure of the column of water in the full tanks (I'd
have to do the F=P/A math) where the tanks are ten feet high a few feet
behind the motor).

One thing I need to look at is whether the pressure gauge shows a lower
pressure when the home has no water pressure. I "think" it always shows the
same pressure - so that's why I think it might be showing the pressure of
the water column BEFORE it gets to the pump (I'd have to check in the
morning as I had not thought about it until now).

> The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.
> Notice the tube leading away from it.

Ah. That tube. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it!
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg>

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>

That is interesting. If I bypass that, the pump should go on and off
(depending on if it's normally open or normally closed).

For it to be a pressure switch, it needs a 'sensor' somewhere.
Maybe the sensor is under those contacts?

> I'd probably just replace the entire pump. There will be wear on
> the impeller so it won't be at its most efficient.

I don't disagree. I've disassembled plenty of pumps, where almost all the
time the outdoor water pumps have these long bolts that break EVERY damn
time. I spend most of my time trying to get them out.

Meanwhile, the bearings are frozen onto the shaft (especially if they were
making noise).

The good news is that bearings are dirt cheap - the bad news is that taking
apart the motors generally is impossible due to those long bolts that
break.

I don't mind replacing the pump, but I can't find an exact one on Google.
The model number just doesn't match anything. I do have an email that I
sent to GE and I will call General Electric in the morning to ask where I
can get a replacement.

I'm not beholden to GE - but I have to match that 'frame'.
Do you have advice as to what the frame is?
I don't see it explicitly on the label.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>
Do you?

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 18:35:11 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

> Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.
> I didn't see you offering any help.
> You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned
> about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU.

Let's stop bickering.
It's just foolish to say "call a plumber" on this newsgroup.
You got all upset that I said that - and I understand.

I apologize if you're all upset.

You think I'm gonna kill myself, and I told you I'm an EE but that doesn't
(a) give me immunity from electrocution, nor does it (b) teach me anything
about how the pressure switch works, and (c) it doesn't help me figure out
what "frame" this pump happens to use.

You can continue to be afraid of your own shadow, but I'm not.

All I need, for now, is helpful advice.
Your advice, so far, has not been helpful.

To be helpful, if you actually have experience you claim, then you would
easily be able to answer these three basic questions.
1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 18:28:33 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> Helpful as usual, I see. It's AHR, he actually asks a home repair question
> and first you give him snide remarks, then all kinds of reasons why putting
> a new motor on a pump may require a plumber. You didn't answer a single
> question he asked. Quite a performance.

Thank you for realizing that his response just wasted his time, my time,
and your time.

As you note, this is a home repair group for heaven's sake.
This is a pump that boosts the pressure of the water system.
I'm an electrical engineer - but that doesn't help much here.

I think his first response was just dead wrong - but his second response
was a shitload of excuses because my response got him upset.

I apologize to him if my response that his response wasn't helpful upset
him.

I have no problem admitting I know nothing about booster pumps.
Particularly I don't know how that pressure sensing system works.

To troubleshoot, I have to figure out if it's the pressure sensor, or the
pump motor. It's one or the other. (I think it may be the motor because I
heard a noise at one point - but it could be the sensor because the pump
won't go on at times.)

If he really has the experience he claims to have, he would be able to
answer these basic questions... which will help me a lot.

1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

NOTE: I saw your post on the specs, where the only one that I'm confused on
is what "Frame" am I currently using? Is the frame on this sticker?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 18:08:55 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> IDK why you call it a pressure booster pump instead of just a pump.

Thanks for your helpful advice.

I agree with you. It's a pump. Specifically, it's a 1HP 3450RPM pump.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9787347pressure01.jpg>

The job, AFAIK, is to boost the pressure coming out of the filled water
tanks, because, the tanks are comopletely full so the well pump (which is
500 feet deep) is working just fine.

Without the pressure pump, there is no water pressure inside the house.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg>

The label, on the outside, says it's a "Jet Pump", whatever that means.
If I need to replace it, I am guessing I just need to match the bolts.

> It sounds like it's a jet pump and the only one. Jet pumps differ from
> a piston pump in that they can bring up water from depths that are lower
> than the max lift of a piston pump, which I think is like ~28 ft?

In this case, the well has its own pump that is 500 feet deep.
There's nothing wrong with the well pump as the water tanks are full.

There's plenty of water in those tanks.
There's just no pressure when the pressure pump fails to turn on.

> They use two pipes, one pushes water down the well to the other part
> of the pump where a jet action picks up water and it comes back on
> the other line.

I am sure this is a two-pump system.
1. There is a pump inside the well (deep down), and,
2. There is a pump outside the tanks (on the surface).

The pump deep down is working just fine as the water tanks are full.
There's plenty of water.

There's just no pressure.
The pressure comes from this pump.

> Frame size, voltage, speed, hp and maybe if it's suited for a wet location,
> etc if it's exposed.

It's in a shed. Nice and (reasonably) dry. Here is the label.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6757739pressure04.jpg>

General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor
Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I agree with you that I think the only spec that matters is:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>
a. The frame size - *where is the frame size listed?*
b. The voltage - this is running off of 110 it seems
c. The speed - this is 3450 rpm
d. The HP - this is 1 HP

> The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.

Ah. I didn't realize that relay was actually a pressure switch.
How on earth does it *measure* the pressure?

How can it sense the pressure from OUTSIDE the water supply?
This is a key question because the reason the pump isn't going on could
either be the pump is going bad - or - the pressure sensor is going bad.

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 18:22:47 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

> Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing,
> control circuits, pressure tanks, etc? If not, you may need to call a professional.
> It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run.
> I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what
> they're doing can cause a lot of damage. I know from experience because
> of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer.
> You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and
> electrical safety. If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for
> your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe
> and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything.

All I'm asking is advice from someone who has troubleshot these things.

1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Those are my main three questions.
Do you have helpful input on those three questions?

I apologize for pointing out that your comment about "call a plumber"
wasn't appropriate for this newsgroup.

All of your questions are off topic - and none of your posts so far are
intended to be helpful - that much is clear to all.

But I will faithfully answer your questions, even though this entire post
is a waste of time since it doesn't help anyone solve the problem at hand,
which is a basic home repair issue.

> Do you have experience working on pumps, electrical power, plumbing,
> control circuits, pressure tanks, etc?

Of course I do.
I'm a degreed electrical engineer for heaven's sake.
But I always will admit that the theory doesn't apply to the practical.

So having a degree in EE doesn't mean I know how to fix pumps.
I readily admit that.

For example, they NEVER cover pump bearings in college.
They don't cover frame sizes.
They don't even cover pumps, per se (they do cover motors).

> If not, you may need to call a professional.

If that's your advice, then it's clear you know nothing of helpful use.
I'm sorry to be blunt. But your advice is a complete waste of time.
For you. For me. For everyone.
It just is.

> It's for your own safety and may cost you less in the long run.

Again, platitudes.
What you say is what a grandmother would say.
You can't be helpful in a group called "alt.home.repair".

Why don't you just man up and admit you know nothing about pumps?
I can admit it.
Why can't you?

> I've repaired systems like that and someone who has no clue about what
> they're doing can cause a lot of damage.

Jesus. If you're so afraid of your own shadow, why do you bother to post
anything to an alt.home.repair newsgroup?

The fact is that I know nothing about pumps, but, you've shown that you too
know even less than I do.

Plus, your posts just waste your time, my time, and everyone elses' time.

> I know from experience because
> of having to repair major DIY damage done by a clueless customer.

What are you talking about?
It's a booster pump for heaven's sake.
Not a nuclear reactor.

All I'm asking is advice from someone who has troubleshot these things.

1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Those are my main three questions.
Do you have helpful input on those three questions?

> You need at least a basic understanding of electrical circuits and
> electrical safety.

Holy shit. I said I'm an EE. What do you want me to do, post my degree for
you? Assume that I know all about volts and amps (and how to design chips,
for heaven's sake).

Having said that, being an EE doesn't give you any experience in pumps,
although the operation of motors is covered in theory for sure.

But "bearings" aren't covered.
Neither is how to get the pump open without breaking those long bolts.
Nor is how to fit a new pump to the old housing (the frame, so to speak).

None of that is covered in a 5-year engineering program.
You can argue that you think it should be covered; but it's just not.

I don't make the EE curriculum.
I just ask the questions.

> If you don't possess such knowledge, I'd fear for
> your safety. If you still wish to tackle the repair, please be safe
> and make sure the power is off before you dig into anything.

Jesus Christ. If you're so afraid of your own shadow, you don't belong in
this newsgroup. You just don't.

If you *truly* have experience in troubleshooting pumps, you'll be able to
answer the simple questions posed...

[dpb]

On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

>
> You're the second person to mention this, so I should be very clear that
> the well itself is 500 feet deep and it has, AFAIK, its own pump at the
> bottom.

Ah! That's significant new factoid...

> Clearly I have separate breakers for the well pump versus the booster pump.
> They are two different pumps.
>
> The well pump brings up the water and stores it in tanks that are 10 feet
> high. The tanks don't develop enough water pressure for the house, so the
> booster pump boosts the pressure for the house.

OK, what you've not shown picture of is the connections to the well pump
other than just the box but not where the signal comes from.

We run just off pressure in the storage tank; the pressure switch is
40-60 with no additional booster. Sounds like you're running an
essentially unpressurized tank and relying on the booster pump for
distribution pressure entirely.

> I'm not sure what the gauge is reading because the gauge may be reading the
> pressure of the 10 foot column of water that is only a few feet behind the
> pump.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg>
>
> So the main thing I have to figure out is what that gauge is trying to tell
> me.
>

...

> I think it might NOT be the pump though.
> That's why I need to ask how the pressure switch works.

I'd suspect that's highly unlikely to have caused the previous
noise...the question will be when it fail next time to look at position
of contacts; did they fail to close? If they function and you've got
power, then it's the thermal switch that's cut out.

> The one thing that perplexes me is that I don't see ANY indication of the
> bladder pressure being measured.
>
> It looks like what's being measured is the INPUT pressure to the pump, not
> the OUTPUT pressure.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg>
>
> But that makes no sense.
> Does it?
>
>> Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no
>> need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and
>> service rating are the key items...
>
> The "frame" is what matters, I think, as long as it's about 1HP and 3450
> RPM, which is the easy part. I'm not sure what the "frame" is though.
> Is the "frame" on this sticker?
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>

Not really conventional frame number; the "jet pump motor" describes the
mounting flange arrangement which is what you have to match to the pump.

...

> Yup. The pump appears to have two switches that control it.
> a. The water level indicator relay (which is known to be working fine!)
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg>

Never seen water level as input; what would help would be to see what
the inputs to that relay come from...it's not possible to tell which
pipe goes/comes to/from in that mess of stuff hooked to the tank...are
you sure somewhere along there there isn't another pressure tap going to
the well pump pressure switch? I don't know what "level" they'd be
measuring or where that sensor would be...that and an overall plumbing
diagram is what we're missing.

> b. The booster pressure indicator relay (which is a mystery to me)
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg>
>
> The "mystery" is that there is NOTHING coming out of the booster by way of
> pressure sensors that I can see.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>
>
> The gauge seems to be INPUT pressure, but that makes no sense.
> Who cares what the input pressure is.
> The OUTPUT pressure is what matters, right?

That's common pressure at the outlet...was pump running or off at the time?

75 psi is pretty high for domestic water altho if you've got long runs
and small diameter feeds there may be sufficient pressure drop before it
gets to the house...

--

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 22:34:49 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Ah! That's significant new factoid...

Thanks for asking. I guess it's common to have only one pump, but I
definitely have a separate pump underground for the well, and the tanks are
unpressurized. They're open to the air at top (so to speak in that they
have a manhole cover and a vent at top.

> OK, what you've not shown picture of is the connections to the well pump
> other than just the box but not where the signal comes from.

It's night now, but here's a picture taken during the day a while ago:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7831116pressure09.jpg>

Let me know what you want a photo of, as I do realize a photo is better
than me trying to explain it.

> We run just off pressure in the storage tank; the pressure switch is
> 40-60 with no additional booster. Sounds like you're running an
> essentially unpressurized tank and relying on the booster pump for
> distribution pressure entirely.

It's good to know your pressure is 40 to 60 psi, where mine seems to be, in
the photo, at around 75 psi (give or take a few). What I'm trying to figure
out is where the pressure switch is located, where people told me the tube
goes to it which puts it UNDER the relays in this photo.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9787347pressure01.jpg>

I guess the right side of that motor *holds* the pressure, which seems
strange to me that a motor would hold pressure at all - since I would
expect the bladder to hold the pressure instead.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>

But there is no sensor wires that I can see at the bladder.
It's odd to me that the pump holds the pressure for such a long time.

> I'd suspect that's highly unlikely to have caused the previous
> noise...the question will be when it fail next time to look at position
> of contacts; did they fail to close? If they function and you've got
> power, then it's the thermal switch that's cut out.

I agree with you that the noise can only be one thing.
But the symptoms don't indicate a bad motor either.
It wasn't in the least hot when it made that noise for example.

So what I need to do is *test* that pressure switch.
But how?

> Not really conventional frame number; the "jet pump motor" describes the
> mounting flange arrangement which is what you have to match to the pump.

I'm confused. Are you saying all 1HP 3450 RPM single-phase 120VAC "jet pump
motors" have the same mounting hole arrangement?

I'm used to frame numbers like "56F" for example, but this doesn't seem to
have a frame number.

> Never seen water level as input; what would help would be to see what
> the inputs to that relay come from...it's not possible to tell which
> pipe goes/comes to/from in that mess of stuff hooked to the tank...are
> you sure somewhere along there there isn't another pressure tap going to
> the well pump pressure switch? I don't know what "level" they'd be
> measuring or where that sensor would be...that and an overall plumbing
> diagram is what we're missing.

This is the wiring diagram to the first of the two relays outside on the
shed wall - but this relay is for the full tank switch:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg>

This relay is working properly as it is pulled *in* which it should be,
because there is a switch INSIDE the water tank, that indicates that there
is enough water for the pressure pump to run.

As far as I can tell, there is no external wiring for the pressure switch
other than it goes from the fusebox to the pressure switch directly which
you can see in the black electrical conduit in this picture.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9113867pressure02.jpg>

> That's common pressure at the outlet...was pump running or off at the time?

The pump was most definitely OFF when all these pictures were taken.
The pressure never seems to vary, but I admit I don't look at it all that
much.

> 75 psi is pretty high for domestic water altho if you've got long runs
> and small diameter feeds there may be sufficient pressure drop before it
> gets to the house..

The house is a few hundred feet away and the runs to the other side are,
oh, I don't know, 500 or more feet away. I'm not worried, right now, about
the pressure being high as it has *always* been high (I can use a garden
hose as a weapon almost).

Right now, too much pressure isn't my problem. :)

I need to figure out how to troubleshoot that pressure switch.
And, I need to buy some bearings for that motor.
And line up a spare motor (in case I break the long bolts).

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 06:18:44 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

> I'm used to frame numbers like "56F" for example, but this doesn't seem to
> have a frame number.

Duh. I'm an idiot!
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>

I just noticed the FRAME number on that motor plate!
Right where it should be!

*It's "FR 56C"*

I don't know why I didn't see this before.
(Nobody else did either - even though I had posted the picture).

Sigh. That at least solves the mystery of the frame number!

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 06:24:36 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

> *It's "FR 56C"*

That makes things infinitely easier to look up for replacement because this
is all that matters, I think.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>

1. Horsepower = 1HP with a service factor SF of 1.4 (i.e., 1.4HP full load)
2. Frame = 56C
3. Power = 120VAC single phase
4. Locked rotor code = L (9 to 10 volts)

With that, the first hit is this $261 motor:
<http://www.electricmotors.com/1hp-3600rpm-nol-56cb-frame-jet-pump-motor.html>

Reference on the service factor (SF):
<http://www.inyopools.com/Blog/is-a-1-0hp-motor-the-same-as-a-1-5hp-motor/>

Reefernce on the locked-rotor code (L):
<http://www.arescobuyersclub.com/nameplates.html>

[trader_4]

The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it. Those two nuts adjust the cut-in and cut-out pressures.

Now that you described the whole setup, I see why you're calling it a booster pump.

[Dean Hoffman]

56C. You can probably buy the bearings at an auto parts store.
The pumps I'm familiar with (Berkeley) have this seal.
<http://www.spapumpsandmore.com/v/vspfiles/photos/PPUFSEALVITON-2.jpg>
Replace it.
I'd probably just buy a pump of the same horsepower if I was
replacing it. It should
handle the job. The wiring, circuit breaker, etc are sized for that
horsepower.
Just out of curiosity, is the wiring code compliant?

[Uncle Monster]

Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped in the top of the water tank. Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems share similar characteristics. The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump. As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the units that have the specifications, otherwise, you should be able to look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the equipment to a different brand or similar equipment. The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors. There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on servicing pump and pressure tank systems. ^_^

https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7

https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

[8~{} Uncle Pumpped Monster

[dpb]

On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 13 Aug 2018 18:25:12 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>
>> 70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
>> pump starting point.
>
> Thanks for mentioning that the 70 psi is the shutdown point.
> I'm guessing it's measuring that right off the bladder, even though the
> gauge is on the pump itself.

>
> Given that the gauge generally reads the same all the time, that 70 psi
> "might" also be the pressure of the column of water in the full tanks (I'd
> have to do the F=P/A math) where the tanks are ten feet high a few feet
> behind the motor).

It's static pressure of the system at the point; there will be a check
valve down the well so it doesn't run back down when pump is off..

> One thing I need to look at is whether the pressure gauge shows a lower
> pressure when the home has no water pressure. I "think" it always shows the
> same pressure - so that's why I think it might be showing the pressure of
> the water column BEFORE it gets to the pump (I'd have to check in the
> morning as I had not thought about it until now).

It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.

>> The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.
>> Notice the tube leading away from it.
>
> Ah. That tube. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it!
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg>
>
> Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
> I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>
>
> That is interesting. If I bypass that, the pump should go on and off
> (depending on if it's normally open or normally closed).
>
> For it to be a pressure switch, it needs a 'sensor' somewhere.
> Maybe the sensor is under those contacts?

The "sensor" is just a calibrated spring; you can adjust the on/off
pressure within reason by the turn screw.

...

[dpb]

On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:

...

> Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
> I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>
>

...

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
more than interposing relay.

--

[trader_4]

IDK why he insists on debugging the whole system. I guess if he wants
to know how it works, that's OK. But he heard a squeal coming from
the pump, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'd simply wait
until it's not working and see if there is voltage on the motor.
If yes, he knows the pump is the problem. If not, then he can just
follow the voltage.

He keeps looking for a sensor or wires coming out of the tank. Yet
he posted a picture of a pump pressure switch, clear as day. That
is the "sensor" and that has to have a connection to the water coming out
of it. It doesn't have to be hooked directly to the tank, it could
just be connected to the water line coming out of the tank.

[dpb]

'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does
he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't
understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of
those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction
whether it needs study or not... :)

Yes, since the system is all tied together, for the purposes of control
"pressure is pressure" at the point relatively close to the tank. He
should investigate the possibility the gauge itself is stuck; it's
immaterial to system operation but if not functional could lead to
confusing the issues thinking there's pressure when there's not...the
one here was stuck last month when we hooked up the new well--I hadn't
noticed until we opened the system and the needle didn't move... :)

I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
will run out wherever that is.

What isn't shown clearly is how the well pump is controlled; whether
there really is a second sensor or whether that other relay is just the
secondary to it off the pressure switch on the booster pump.

--

[trader_4]

I bet this is a low flow well and the tanks are there to slowly accumulate
water over a long period. We had another poster here, Danny I believe,
that had this kind of system. Are they one and the same? IDK. That they
both had a penchant for over analyzing, taking lots of pictures would
suggest they are. But I didn't think Danny was the kind of guy that
would be mounting tires at home or fueling his car at home from cans,
so IDK.

>
> What isn't shown clearly is how the well pump is controlled; whether
> there really is a second sensor or whether that other relay is just the
> secondary to it off the pressure switch on the booster pump.
>
> --

I would bet that the submersible is controlled by a level sensor in
the storage tanks and that another float serves as an interlock on
the pressure pump to keep it from running if the water in the tanks
is all gone.

But again, seems to me the only thing he really needs to do is see if
there is voltage on that pump when it's not working. He said it was
squealing, but I guess it could also squeal if it was out of water,
so maybe that's a possibility too. Come to think about it, being out
of water would also fit with it happening only when it's used for
irrigation. But that could also fit with a motor going bad, the
problem showing up when it's used the most. You'd also think that
if the water wasn't flowing, one of the first things you'd check would
be if the tanks were empty, but who knows.

[dpb]

Agreed, I was simply suggesting it would be interesting to actually know
for certain that is the setup.

As far as diagnostics, that's certainly where to start when it isn't
functioning; then see if thermal switch tripped it and work backwards.

Certainly there's almost certainly new or rebuilt in the near future
given there is squealing at least on one occasion; who knows what noises
it makes while running and nobody's around before it quits or does shut
off in time to not actually fail.

That's a good call probably on the low-capacity well and reason for
storage tank(s)--I'm not used to having to do that; there's always
plenty of water in a hole here for domestic wells...so the trickle over
longer time concept doesn't come into play and don't actively think
about that kind of installation. The level/float switch then does make
perfect sense to control the actual pump.

--

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 11:58 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> That's a good call probably on the low-capacity well and reason for
> storage tank(s)--I'm not used to having to do that; there's always
> plenty of water in a hole here for domestic wells...so the trickle over
> longer time concept doesn't come into play and don't actively think
> about that kind of installation.  The level/float switch then does make
> perfect sense to control the actual pump.

Wonder if he knows what the down-hole pump capacity/HP rating
is...that'd give an idea what its output is.

The new well here put out 75 gpm w/ an almost wore-out oilfield 10 hp
rig for the test/cleanout run...it probably has at least 3X the
capacity; put a 3 in the hole that's between 25-30 gpm which is plenty
for the house and cattle...

--

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 03:25:10 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:

> 56C.

Yeah. I saw that, belatedly as "FR 56C". Thanks.

That means I really only need a "jet pump motor" that is frame 56C that is
1 HP (service factor 1.4 or thereabouts).

What's amazing to me is that the pressure must be held in that motor rubber
o-rings because the pressure tube is on the output of the motor. That's
amazing that it holds the pressure so well at the impeller.

> You can probably buy the bearings at an auto parts store.

I just replaced the flywheel pilot bearing in a Toyota so I do realize that
I can "find" a bearing locally if I have it in my hands, but the problem is
downtime - especially if it's a non-standard bearing.

Bearings are dirt cheap - but they have to be the right size & type.
I tried GE but they don't provide parts diagrams, they say.

> The pumps I'm familiar with (Berkeley) have this seal.
> <http://www.spapumpsandmore.com/v/vspfiles/photos/PPUFSEALVITON-2.jpg>
> Replace it.

Thank you for pointing out the seal, as this pump must have a similarly
amazing seal, since it holds pressure at the impeller side of the pump at
about 75 PSI without any leaking that I can determine.

That's just amazing.
Suffice to say that seal will be hard to source also - without parts
diagrams anyway ... so my main goal is a parts diagram but GE says they
don't supply them.

I tried a local pump place that GE recommended (Johnstone Pumps) but they
only sell to pros (and they didn't find a lookup for the model anyway and
they told me nobody rebuilds pumps - too expensive to do so).

> I'd probably just buy a pump of the same horsepower if I was
> replacing it.

I agree. The downtime will be only an hour or so, compared to days to
source the parts if I have to take the pump apart first.

> It should
> handle the job. The wiring, circuit breaker, etc are sized for that
> horsepower.

I agree. The simplest path is to troubleshoot the reason why the pump is
intermittently not going on, and, if that indicates a problem with the
pump, to just replace it and then take my sweet time rebuilding the old one
(or turn it into a wood lathe or disc sander).

> Just out of curiosity, is the wiring code compliant?

I'm sure it is as everything else is code compliant (AFAIK).

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 00:54:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you
> previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it.

I see the water pipe that someone mentioned, where it's also a relay based
on all those contacts visible on top.

I guess it surprises me that the front of the pump where the impeller must
be is "pressurized" since that's where the metal tube is coming out of.

The pump must have an EXCELLENT seal to hold that much pressure for so long
without leaking past 75PSI at any time I've ever looked.

> Those two nuts adjust the cut-in and cut-out pressures.

That's good to know as I didn't know what exactly they adjusted.

> Now that you described the whole setup, I see why you're calling
> it a booster pump.

The pump appears to have only one purpose, which is to boost the water
pressure of the bladder from ambient pressure to about 75 psi.

I've seen these bladders everywhere where I live, so, they're pretty common
(every single home has one).

It's odd that someone said the "water tank" is pressurized, as that would
be astoundingly crazy to pressurize a 10,000 gallon set of tanks when all
you need to do is pressurize these little 4-foot tall bladder tanks.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 05:01:41 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:

> Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped
> in the top of the water tank.

Thank you for being helpful on the questions asked.

The 10,000 gallon water tanks are unpressurized - they simply hold water.
They can't be pressurized as there is a manhole cover on top that fits
loosely and there is a three or four inch vent in the middle of the top
also.

The only tank that is "pressurized" is the four-foot tall blue bladder tank
that is pictured in the previous set of photos inside the pressure pump
shed.

> Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems
> share similar characteristics.

I'm sure of that, which is why asking here on a.h.r can be fruitful.

> The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the
> contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

You bring up an interesting point that the pressure switch may be
adjustable, which, if I can find the adjustment, would be useful perhaps
for troubleshooting purposes.

> As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the
> units that have the specifications, otherwise, you should be able to
> look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the
> equipment to a different brand or similar equipment.

As shown in the photos, you're correct the nameplate has everything I need.
* 1 HP (Service Factor 1.4), single-phase 115/230VAC, Frame 56C, Code L

It's the Internet that doesn't have any parts diagrams on the model:
* General Electric Jet Pump Motor Model 5KC39QN1157AX

I called GE, which was a two-hour experience because GE sold all their
motors to two different enterprises...

Fractional HP Motors went to Riegel Beloit at 260-416-5400
1HP & up went to Marathon/Century 800-541-7191

You don't want to know what happened when I called each of those.

> The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward
> and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor
> or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors.

I'm familiar with the "bulge" of the electrolytic starting caps but I don't
see one in this motor (it could be internal - but probably not) - but
that's a good idea to keep in mind for what to purchase ahead of time in
addition to the bearings.

I can't yet find a parts diagram where Riegel Beloit told me that this
motor was specially made for Marathon and then for Jacuzzi Brothers, so a
parts diagram may be hard to find based on the model number alone.

> There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on
> servicing pump and pressure tank systems.

> https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7
> https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml

Thanks for those URLs. As noted, I've replaced and rebuilt motors before,
where the main issue is that of downtime so I want to source the bearings
first. Once the bearings are in my hands, they're easy to source but it
takes time if they're not standard sizes - so that's why I'm seeking a
parts diagram first.

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 2:37 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

> The pump appears to have only one purpose, which is to boost the water
> pressure of the bladder from ambient pressure to about 75 psi.
>
> I've seen these bladders everywhere where I live, so, they're pretty common
> (every single home has one).
>
> It's odd that someone said the "water tank" is pressurized, as that would
> be astoundingly crazy to pressurize a 10,000 gallon set of tanks when all
> you need to do is pressurize these little 4-foot tall bladder tanks.

Well, if one has well capacity that is sufficient for demand, the
"normal" way a system is configured is that the pressure tank _is_ the
pressurizing element for the distribution system when the pump isn't
running and there is no secondary booster pump.

The air pressure in the tank is set at -2 psi relative to cutout
setpoint when the tank is empty and the bladder/diaphragm is then
compressed/stretched to produce exit water pressure on demand.

The system here operates 40-60 psi with an 80 gal pressure tank
capacity; when the pressure drops below the low cut-in, the pump kicks
on and supplies both demand and refills the tank to pressure at which it
cuts off and the cycle starts over...

With a system such as yours you have an extremely large reservoir
because (apparently) the well can't keep up to demand and so must be
able to pump into the holding tank whether there's current demand or not
in order to have sufficient volume on hand for demand.

Or, demand rate could possibly be very high if one were doing
large-scale irrigation or the like, but normal residential demand plus
several hundred head of cattle doesn't tax this well at all even on 100+
F days when they hit the water pretty hard.

Granted, it would make no sense to try to pressurize the whole system
under that operating scenario, but as noted, while that's what's common
where you are, overall that's a relatively uncommon installation type;
definitely not what I was thinking of when we started!

As for how good a seal; 75-100 psi isn't all that much to try to seal;
also note and check -- given the age of the system there's at least a
reasonable chance that pressure gauge isn't working at all but is frozen
up, particularly if it's not an oil-filled one but direct.

--

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 2:37 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:

> On 14 Aug 2018 00:54:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:
>
>> The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you
>> previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it.
>
> I see the water pipe that someone mentioned, where it's also a relay based
> on all those contacts visible on top.

...

That's why it's called a pressure "switch" :)

The water pressure compresses the spring until the contacts lift (open)
when pressure reaches the setpoint thus stopping the pump, when the
pressure drops the spring relaxes as the bottom support goes away and
eventually the contacts close turning the pump back on...

Given your system configuration, I'm still curious as to what size pump
is down-hole if you know???

Also, is the a production ag operation or the like so irrigation demands
are extremely high volume as compared to "just" lawn. 10,000 gal would
be about 1/3-rd of an Acre-inch of water or an inch over a third of an
acre which would be pretty hefty for most residences...

--

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 07:00:20 GMT, dpb wrote:

> It's static pressure of the system at the point; there will be a check
> valve down the well so it doesn't run back down when pump is off..

You're right!

I tested the gauge pressure just now by turning off the power and then
running the garden hoses at the house until they petered out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg>

Interestingly, at the booster pump shed, the hose on the wall did NOT peter
out, as the pressure gauge barely dropped from a bit over 70psi ....
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg>
to about 66 psi when the water was an unusable dribble at the house
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5704779pump11.jpg> Gauge at 66psi

I could tell that the blue booster tank was 'empty' as I could tilt it by
hand ever so slightly when it is empty but I can't budge it when it is
full.

And yet, when I turned on the faucet on the pump house wall, it was fine!
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg>

So that gauge pressure is really almost completely input pressure!

> It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
> frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.

The gage appears to be working as there was plenty of pressure (i.e.,
66psi) "at" the booster pump shed - but none a few hundred feet away at the
house.

So it appears that the "static pressure" of a full tank of water in the
10,000 gallon tanks is about 65psi. The booster pump boosts that up so that
the water won't just dribble at the house.

It has to be the input pressure, actually, just looking at the front of the
motor, which is a big cast-iron casing - that must be the pressure area:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9413854pump02.jpg>

> The "sensor" is just a calibrated spring; you can adjust the on/off
> pressure within reason by the turn screw.

Thanks for the description of the pressure sensor and switch, where I took
a look today at the *bottom* to see the pressure pipe coming in:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3186082pump05.jpg>

I see there are two nuts that can be calibrated at the front of the sensor:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9137017pump07.jpg>

And two sets of power lines going into the back of the sensor:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg>

And a closer look shows the input tube of water pressure on the bottom.
The wires appear to have two circuits from the side.

The pressure sensor switch casing says "Pumptrol" on the outside.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1957278pump10.jpg>

Printed inside it says Control Circuit A600, Square D,
Class 9013, Ser B, Type FSG-2, On 30, off 50, Form U,
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6351926pump09.jpg>

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 8:01:46 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
> On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 10:54:46 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
> > On 13 Aug 2018 18:35:11 GMT, Uncle Monster wrote:
> >
> > > Go fellate yourself Traitor_4ever.
> > > I didn't see you offering any help.
> > > You lack the expertise to assist the fellow or to be concerned
> > > about his safety anyway so your best bet is to STFU.
> >
> > Let's stop bickering.
> > It's just foolish to say "call a plumber" on this newsgroup.
> > You got all upset that I said that - and I understand.
> >
> > I apologize if you're all upset.
> >
> > You think I'm gonna kill myself, and I told you I'm an EE but that doesn't
> > (a) give me immunity from electrocution, nor does it (b) teach me anything
> > about how the pressure switch works, and (c) it doesn't help me figure out
> > what "frame" this pump happens to use.
> >
> > You can continue to be afraid of your own shadow, but I'm not.
> >
> > All I need, for now, is helpful advice.
> > Your advice, so far, has not been helpful.
> >
> > To be helpful, if you actually have experience you claim, then you would
> > easily be able to answer these three basic questions.
> > 1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
> > 2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
> > 3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?
>
> Most pressure switches work off the air pressure from the air trapped in the top of the water tank.

Baloney. And it's a good thing too, because most tanks have relied
on bladders that contain the air for a long time already. The
switch would have to be involved with the bag, it isn't. The pressure
switch is on the tank plumbing and reacts to the water pressure.
It would work if you put it in the air part of a tank without a bladder,
because the pressure is the same. IDK how you'd put it in a modern tank
with a bladder and get to the air.

Most pressure switches made for well water and pressure tank systems share similar characteristics.

Maybe because they are essentially the same thing. Around here, if you
have a well, you have a pump and pressure tank.

The switches are adjustable to the desired pressure and control the contactor(high current power relay) that supplies power to the pump.

Again, there is no relay in a typical water pump. The pressure
switch simply is the switch for the AC to the motor.

As far as the pump or motor goes, there should be nameplates on the units that have the specifications,

He's posted the info, pics, etc. yesterday.

otherwise, you should be able to look up the specs using the model numbers and cross-reference the equipment to a different brand or similar equipment. The bearing replacement on an electric motor is usually straightforward and if it's some years old, you may consider replacing the motor capacitor or capacitors if there are start and a run capacitors. There are websites that go into more detail with pictures on servicing pump and pressure tank systems. ^_^
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yatp85n7
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y8dugtml
>
> [8~{} Uncle Pumpped Monster

You were doing better making snide remarks, maybe you should stick
to that.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 07:28:42 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come
> from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything
> more than interposing relay.

The setup is only now starting to make sense to me now that folks explained
how the pressure switch works and where it was!
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4252649pump04.jpg>

The pressure switch was in plain sight all along - but I thought it was
just a relay of some sort (which it is - but it's more a pressure switch):
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg>

This is the fusebox panel (which contains circuits for the well pump also):
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7831116pressure09.jpg>

There are two "relays" that must be closed in order for the pressure pump
(aka booster pump, aka GE Jet Pump Motor) to turn on:
1. The water tanks must have water in them
2. The pressure must drop below a given preset value

You can see the first relay in this picture where it's the relay on the
left (ignore the right relay - that's a relay for the well pump itself):
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg>

It's hard to notice from just that photo, but that left-most relay is
pulled in an eighth of an inch when the fuse panel allows electricity.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg>

This is exactly what is supposed to happen - which indicates that the big
water tanks themselves have enough water in them as there is an "empty"
switch that will *open* that circuit if there isn't enough water. Of this
I'm positive as I had issues in the past when the tank ran dry due to me
forgetting to turn the power back on so I climbed on top of the big water
tanks and pulled that level sensing switch out and flipped it upside down
and the booster pump started working when I did that.

The second relay is, of course, the pressure switch & relay which is
attached to the booster pump motor.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg>

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 3:37:33 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 00:54:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:
>
> > The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you
> > previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it.
>
> I see the water pipe that someone mentioned, where it's also a relay based
> on all those contacts visible on top.

It's not a relay, it's just a pressure switch. You say you're an electrical
engineer and you can't identify a switch vs a relay?

>
> I guess it surprises me that the front of the pump where the impeller must
> be is "pressurized" since that's where the metal tube is coming out of.
>
> The pump must have an EXCELLENT seal to hold that much pressure for so long
> without leaking past 75PSI at any time I've ever looked.
>
> > Those two nuts adjust the cut-in and cut-out pressures.
>
> That's good to know as I didn't know what exactly they adjusted.
>
> > Now that you described the whole setup, I see why you're calling
> > it a booster pump.
>
> The pump appears to have only one purpose, which is to boost the water
> pressure of the bladder from ambient pressure to about 75 psi.

It's purpose is to suck up water and force it into the tank until
it reaches the cut-off pressure.

>
> I've seen these bladders everywhere where I live, so, they're pretty common
> (every single home has one).
>
> It's odd that someone said the "water tank" is pressurized, as that would
> be astoundingly crazy to pressurize a 10,000 gallon set of tanks when all
> you need to do is pressurize these little 4-foot tall bladder tanks.

I think they were referring to the pressurized water tank, not the
unpressurized storage tanks. The setup you have is not the common type
where there is only the one pressurized tank. I suspect you have a low
flow well and that;s why you need the storage tanks?

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 07:50:09 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> IDK why he insists on debugging the whole system.

I think I understand your point, where generally, debugging can only happen
after I understand how the system works.

Once I understand how it's supposed to work, only then is it obvious where
to check for water pressure and voltage.

> I guess if he wants
> to know how it works, that's OK. But he heard a squeal coming from
> the pump, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

This is true. Too true. :)

> I'd simply wait
> until it's not working and see if there is voltage on the motor.

I think that can be arranged ... all I have to do is use a lot of water, I
think, we I can do later today in the irrigation cycle.

The main question, of course, is WHERE to look for voltage, so I guess I
should test it now while it's working as I haven't figured out these wires
yet...
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg>

> If yes, he knows the pump is the problem. If not, then he can just
> follow the voltage.

This is the right answer - which is to wait for the pump to not go on when
it should, and then see if the problem is the pressure switch or the pump
itself.
a. If it's the pressure switch, there will be no voltage coming out
b. If it's the pump, there will be voltage at the switch but no pumping

I just have to figure out which leads that is.

> He keeps looking for a sensor or wires coming out of the tank. Yet
> he posted a picture of a pump pressure switch, clear as day.

Only when people told me that the thing I thought was just a relay is
actually the pressure switch (and relay) - where this pipe on the underside
proves it.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg>

> That
> is the "sensor" and that has to have a connection to the water coming out
> of it. It doesn't have to be hooked directly to the tank, it could
> just be connected to the water line coming out of the tank.

You are correct. That input pressure tube is attached to the cast iron
"front" octopus of the motor itself - which is where the water both comes
in, and appears to go out to the blue bladder tank.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9413854pump02.jpg>

[Uncle Monster]

It's been several years since I was able to walk and work but when I was working, I would go to one of several motor shops other than Grainger to get parts for motors and pumps. The motor shops had a lot of knowledgeable guys working the counter who could help customers and tradesmen because they had seen it all. The motor shops also did pump repair in addition to electric motor repair. I don't know what size city you're in but here in Birmingham, Al there is a Johnstone, a W.W. Grainger and a half dozen independent industrial supply houses where me and the guys would go to get the repair parts needed for various pumps and motors. The electrical supply houses also carried various motors and pumps or the parts were a phone call away. I kind of miss working. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Frustrated Monster

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 08:24:21 GMT, dpb wrote:

> 'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does
> he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't
> understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of
> those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction
> whether it needs study or not... :)

You are correct that I didn't know how it works until only about an hour
ago. For one, I didn't realize that the pressure switch had a water
connection until someone mentioned the pipe!
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg>

In my defense, I never said that I understood how it works - I was asking
how it works.

A few things that I figured out today that people told me earlier are not
intuitive, for example, the 66 PSI is static pressure that is always there,
and the 75 PSI is all that the booster pump seems to add but the whole
"front" of the motor where the impeller must be is open to not only the
bladder tank but the big water tanks too ... so that is not intuitive!
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8642122flow01.jpg>

> Yes, since the system is all tied together, for the purposes of control
> "pressure is pressure" at the point relatively close to the tank. He
> should investigate the possibility the gauge itself is stuck; it's
> immaterial to system operation but if not functional could lead to
> confusing the issues thinking there's pressure when there's not...the
> one here was stuck last month when we hooked up the new well--I hadn't
> noticed until we opened the system and the needle didn't move... :)

I tested the gauge sort of by opening the water supply at the wall of the
pump house when the main house had no water pressure - and while the gauge
read 66 psi, the water pressure was fine at the wall of the pump house.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg>

So I have no reason to disbelieve the gauge pressure, especially as there
is definitely a ten foot high column of water coming into that "front"
cast-iron end of the pump motor:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9413854pump02.jpg>

> I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
> though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
> he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
> there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
> will run out wherever that is.

This is the wiring diagram for the water level sensor:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg>

The level sensor is EASY to test and it is working fine!

The water level sensor simply floats in the tank. When it floats, it closes
a switch in the level sensor, which closes the circuit you see above in the
wiring diagram which pulls in the relay you see below:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg>

That level sensing part of the circuit is definitely working (and it can be
manually operated simply by pushing it in with a stick like you see in this
picture):
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1228994flow02.jpg>

> What isn't shown clearly is how the well pump is controlled; whether
> there really is a second sensor or whether that other relay is just the
> secondary to it off the pressure switch on the booster pump.

The well pump that is 500 feet underground has its own curcuit breaker, and
it has its own relay plus it has a box to determine when it's free running
(i.e., no water in the cavity 500 feet down) and it has a timer box also.

The well pump circuit breaker is well marked in this picture and the three
right-most boxes are all for the well pump (they have nothing to do with
the booster pump).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7831116pressure09.jpg>

The well pump is easy to test as it goes on and off all the time.
It won't go on if the tanks are full (that's what the second of the black
relays are for) and it won't go on if there is no water in the cavity 500
feet down (it will spin freely and one of those two boxes will detect the
current change and shut it down) and it seems to also have a timer (I think
that's the third box).

[trader_4]

It's not a relay, it's simply a pressure activated switch.

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 3:58 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

> I tested the gauge pressure just now by turning off the power and then
> running the garden hoses at the house until they petered out.
>

> Interestingly, at the booster pump shed, the hose on the wall did NOT peter
> out, as the pressure gauge barely dropped from a bit over 70psi ....
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg>
> to about 66 psi when the water was an unusable dribble at the house
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5704779pump11.jpg> Gauge at 66psi
>
> I could tell that the blue booster tank was 'empty' as I could tilt it by
> hand ever so slightly when it is empty but I can't budge it when it is
> full.
>
> And yet, when I turned on the faucet on the pump house wall, it was fine!
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg>
>
> So that gauge pressure is really almost completely input pressure!
>
>> It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
>> frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.
>
> The gage appears to be working as there was plenty of pressure (i.e.,
> 66psi) "at" the booster pump shed - but none a few hundred feet away at the
> house.
>
> So it appears that the "static pressure" of a full tank of water in the
> 10,000 gallon tanks is about 65psi. The booster pump boosts that up so that
> the water won't just dribble at the house.

...

Water static head is 1 psi/2.3 ft elevation so that would require 65/2.3
= 28 ft height above that point.

That experiment illustrates the point raised before of you have
extremely high pressure losses in the distribution system it appears or
the house is up on a hill, maybe?

--

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 5:40:52 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 08:24:21 GMT, dpb wrote:
>
> > 'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does
> > he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't
> > understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of
> > those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction
> > whether it needs study or not... :)
>
> You are correct that I didn't know how it works until only about an hour
> ago. For one, I didn't realize that the pressure switch had a water
> connection until someone mentioned the pipe!
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg>
>
> In my defense, I never said that I understood how it works - I was asking
> how it works.
>
> A few things that I figured out today that people told me earlier are not
> intuitive, for example, the 66 PSI is static pressure that is always there,

Those water tanks must be mighty high and/or mighty high up a hill to
get 66 PSI without a pump.

> and the 75 PSI is all that the booster pump seems to add but the whole
> "front" of the motor where the impeller must be is open to not only the
> bladder tank but the big water tanks too ... so that is not intuitive!
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8642122flow01.jpg>

Looks like a typical pump to me and it's old.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 14:43:02 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> It's not a relay, it's simply a pressure activated switch.

OK. Actually, you have to be right - so thanks for clarifying that as there
is no transformer that I can see to make a magnetic "switch".

The main question now is where to check for voltage:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg>

Obviously the green is a common ground.
There are two blue wires going to the motor.
It's hard to tell colors from that picture so I might clean them up a bit
with the power off.

The two black appear to be the input lines but it's hard to tell from that
picture.

Nonetheless, with a common ground, it makes sense to have four lines, where
two are likely the input from the fuse panel and two are the output to the
motor.

I'll clean it up a bit and check the voltages, where I would expect to have
220VAC on the input at all times that the water tanks are full but nothing
on the output until the pressure drops to somewhere less than 70 psi.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 14:50:59 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> Those water tanks must be mighty high and/or mighty high up a hill to
> get 66 PSI without a pump.

The water tanks are in parallel with each other and they are definitely on
the same concrete platform as the pump house so their water height is all
that matters as they are directly behind the booster pump shed and on the
same concrete platform.

I'm guessing that they're 10 feet high ... they may be a bit taller ... but
not 15 feet.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 08:41:30 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> But again, seems to me the only thing he really needs to do is see if
> there is voltage on that pump when it's not working.

Agreed. It wasn't until about an hour ago that I understood even what the
components were.

> He said it was
> squealing, but I guess it could also squeal if it was out of water,
> so maybe that's a possibility too.

The booster pump was never out of water (the tanks are completely full) but
the squeal is disturbing - but hasn't returned - even when the pump
wouldn't turn on.

You are correct though that the only thing left for debugging is to figure
out if it's the pressure switch or the motor itself where it would be
unlikely to be the motor but the voltage at the pressure switch when the
motor is supposed to turn on will tell me everything.

> Come to think about it, being out
> of water would also fit with it happening only when it's used for
> irrigation. But that could also fit with a motor going bad, the
> problem showing up when it's used the most. You'd also think that
> if the water wasn't flowing, one of the first things you'd check would
> be if the tanks were empty, but who knows.

The tanks are as full as they can get. They can't get fuller.
So water level isn't the problem.

I think you're right that the only thing left to debug is right at that
pressure switch.

[trader_4]

By my calculation it would take 66x2.3 = 152 ft. A very tall tank and/or
way up a hill. Or his pressure gauge is kaput or something else is going
on, like he's measuring it with pressure still in the tank.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 09:58:59 GMT, dpb wrote:

> That's a good call probably on the low-capacity well and reason for
> storage tank(s)--I'm not used to having to do that; there's always
> plenty of water in a hole here for domestic wells...so the trickle over
> longer time concept doesn't come into play and don't actively think
> about that kind of installation. The level/float switch then does make
> perfect sense to control the actual pump.

You are completely correct that the well will never pump water for more
than about five minutes before running dry.

Then the well will sit idle for a timed period (I think it's set to
something like 20 minutes or so). Then it tries again.

It takes many days (sometimes weeks) to fill the big water tanks, depending
on drought conditions.

I think the biggest source of confusion was I had no clue how this booster
pump setup worked because it never gave me a reason to care before.

This is the first time it had a problem. I think I understand almost
everything now ... what I don't understand exactly I can figure out - which
is the wiring at that relay.

The plan right now is simple ... now that you helped me understand how it
works. I will simply test the voltage while it's working, and then test the
voltage when it's not. :)

The one-time sound is an issue of concern ... so it still may be related.

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 4:40 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 08:24:21 GMT, dpb wrote:

...

>> I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor,
>> though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if
>> he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else
>> there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads
>> will run out wherever that is.
>
> This is the wiring diagram for the water level sensor:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2443640pressure10.jpg>
>
> The level sensor is EASY to test and it is working fine!
>
> The water level sensor simply floats in the tank. When it floats, it closes
> a switch in the level sensor, which closes the circuit you see above in the
> wiring diagram which pulls in the relay you see below:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1279096pressure07.jpg>

...

Well, (so to speak :) ), that Q? was raised before we knew there _were_
two pumps and that there was a large storage tank elsewhere...as in the
followup sidebar w/ T4, that is _not_ a typical residential intallation
here nor for most of the other ahr regulars I believe.

Once those facts were revealed, _then_ all became much clearer as to
what the system is and how it must operate.

You've got to be able to pump what water there is over a long-enough
time to have sufficient reserve -- although 10 kgal is quite a reserve
for just a residence -- unless you have long(ish) periods where the well
is dry or nearly so or do you really irrigate that much on a regular basis?

I'm still curious as to what the actual down-hole pump size info is
altho it has no bearing on any of the issues, just wondering what kind
of actual well capacity might be...

--

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 10:11:28 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Wonder if he knows what the down-hole pump capacity/HP rating
> is...that'd give an idea what its output is.
>
> The new well here put out 75 gpm w/ an almost wore-out oilfield 10 hp
> rig for the test/cleanout run...it probably has at least 3X the
> capacity; put a 3 in the hole that's between 25-30 gpm which is plenty
> for the house and cattle...

Holy shit. The tank input line has a flow gauge which goes round and round
which NEVER indicates more than about 6 gallons a minute and which can only
do that fast pace for only a few minutes before it shuts down.

[dpb]

Well, that won't generate anything close to 65 psi; more like 25-30 at 1
psi/2.3 ft head.

The pressure is coming from the tank bladder airfill that should be
about 68 psi if the cutoff is 70 psi -- which just about matches
observation.

--

[trader_4]

Again going back to our previous poster friend, I think he was in CA
and they had a requirement that where he lived in the hills that a
certain amount of water was required to be stored for use in a fire.
That could be part of the need for so much capacity.

[Uncle Monster]

Go fornicate yourself Traitor_4ever. Perhaps you should blame it on President Trump? I know you believe you're an expert on everything but you're not. You're an insufferable unintelligent buttocks who should just STFU and stop making a fool out of yourself. Nuff said. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Amused Monster

[trader_4]

Oh my, if you're so upset now, you better take some extra pills before
you look at the pics Arlen just posted of the pressure switch and how it's
connected via tubing directly to the water at the pump. Which is again
exactly what I said.

[dpb]

...

Duh! Thanks.

The pressure is from the bladder tank since the rest of the system is
still full. If it's set approx correctly if he's operating at 50-70 psi
the empty air pressure should be ~68 psi or -2 psi from shutoff setpoint.

That makes pretty close to observed so I'd guess that's functional...if
he were to totally open the system, of course, that would go away but
he's got the supply from the reserve tanks to keep pipes full even when
the little tank isn't even if the well pump isn't running, either.

--

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 15:05:29 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Well, (so to speak :) ), that Q? was raised before we knew there _were_
> two pumps and that there was a large storage tank elsewhere...as in the
> followup sidebar w/ T4, that is _not_ a typical residential intallation
> here nor for most of the other ahr regulars I believe.

It's my fault for not understanding the booster pump system well enough to
explain how it works.

I just checked the power wiring to and from the pressure switch and it's as
one would logically expect, with 120 volts each on the two input black
wires to the common green ground and essentially zero volts on the two
inside blue wires to the motor when the gauge pressure is at 75psi.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg>

> Once those facts were revealed, _then_ all became much clearer as to
> what the system is and how it must operate.

The only electrical thing to test now is what happens, electrically, at
this pressure switch, when the gauge pressure drops to around 65 psi.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7459999flow03.jpg>

>
> You've got to be able to pump what water there is over a long-enough
> time to have sufficient reserve -- although 10 kgal is quite a reserve
> for just a residence -- unless you have long(ish) periods where the well
> is dry or nearly so or do you really irrigate that much on a regular basis?

Codes are now that everyone has to have a separate tank for fire alone,
where much of that 10,000 gallons is already reserved for fire via the
designs of the low-water cutoff switches.

> I'm still curious as to what the actual down-hole pump size info is
> altho it has no bearing on any of the issues, just wondering what kind
> of actual well capacity might be...

I don't know. The wells never put out more than 6 gallons a minute.
And even that only happens for a few minutes at a time only.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 15:08:57 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Well, that won't generate anything close to 65 psi; more like 25-30 at 1
> psi/2.3 ft head.
>
> The pressure is coming from the tank bladder airfill that should be
> about 68 psi if the cutoff is 70 psi -- which just about matches
> observation.

Thanks for running that calculation.

The only thing left to troubleshoot now that the system is figured out is
the voltage on the pressure switch when it's supposed to go on.

Right now, moments ago, when it was in the static pressurized state, it had
120VAC on each input black lead and essentially noise on the two blue leads
to the motor (all to the green common ground).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg>

Do you know if there is a way to bypass the pressure switch without
jumpers? It's not important if there isn't a way to test it manually.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7459999flow03.jpg>

I'll just shut the electricity or let the irrigation run for a while until
the booster is forced to turn back on. When the booster turns back on, I'll
test the voltage. If it doesn't turn back on, I'll test the voltage.

I don't think I will have anything to report until I run that test.

[dpb]

That's a small well here...irrigation wells may be as much as 800-1000
gpm. altho more common in the lower hundreds than above 500 any more as
water table has dropped.

OK, that and your follow-up on capacity reserve answers the Q?. It's
almost a dry hole but while fortunately it's not an issue of such
limited supply not familiar with personally I do know there are large
areas in particularly mountainous regions without large aquifers to tap
into.

--

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 5:49 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 15:08:57 GMT, dpb wrote:

...

> The only thing left to troubleshoot now that the system is figured out is
> the voltage on the pressure switch when it's supposed to go on.

Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does
it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...

> Right now, moments ago, when it was in the static pressurized state, it had
> 120VAC on each input black lead and essentially noise on the two blue leads
> to the motor (all to the green common ground).
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg>

Well, did you not check for 240V _across_ the two blacks??? One would
presume nobody's moved anything and got both on the same phase, but... :)

> Do you know if there is a way to bypass the pressure switch without

> jumpers? ...


Sure, just take a screwdriver with non-conductive handle and push down
to close the contacts...let go and it'll reopen if pressure >cutoff or
run 'til builds pressure if drops while closed.

--

[Uncle Monster]

Are you through fornicating yourself yet? When you get done with that you can fellate yourself. Don't strain yourself. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Amused Monster

[trader_4]

BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there, it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump. The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would normally go down the well isn't used.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 14:13:31 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> It's not a relay, it's just a pressure switch. You say you're an electrical
> engineer and you can't identify a switch vs a relay?

I admit I goofed calling it a relay. I have no excuse as it's a "pressure
switch".

I didn't look closely and simply assumed there were coils there, like there
must be on the relay that gets pulled in when the storage tanks have water
in them.

Looking closely, it appears to work like thus:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8642122flow01.jpg>

a. The pressure gauge is on the OUTPUT of the motor impeller
b. That is also on the output of the pressure bladder
c. So, gauge pressure is bladder pressure which, interestingly has to also
be the pressure on the pipes coming OUT of the storage tanks
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg>

This makes no sense to pressurize the storage tanks from down below the
water level - but the only way that is not the case is if there is a check
valve INSIDE that cast iron front of the motor near the impeller.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9413854pump02.jpg>

Outside the booster pump house is a "relay" that will pull itself in when
the water level is high enough to operate the booster pump:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3441065flow02.jpg>

Inside the booster pump house is a "pressure switch", which gets its
pressure reading from the impeller cast-iron side of the motor via a hollow
pipe.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9773849pump01.jpg>

It then opens or closes this switch where the two input black wires are
each 120VAC to the green common ground and the two output blue wires are to
the booster pump motor.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg>

I don't think I'll have anything to report back until I measure the voltage
when it's supposed to turn on, and even then, it has to fail for me to find
the problem.

But I at least now know that those two blue wires to ground are where to
look!

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 16:12:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there,
> it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump.
> The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would
> normally go down the well isn't used.

Wow. All that just from this crappy picture?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg>

You are almost certainly correct though, as GE pointed me to Riegel Beloit
who bought the GE motor division 260-416-5400 who told me to go to GE
Marathon/Century 800-541-7191 who told me that GE made this motor only for
Marathon who made it only for Jacuzzi Brothers as a custom built motor
(that's from memory of the phone calls today looking for a parts diagram).

So can I just buy any 1HP (SF 1.4) 56C frame motor?
The impeller would also need to be inspected when the motor is removed.

BTW, the bladder tank spec is here.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9829184flow05.jpg>
Model WX302, Well-X-Troll
Factory precharge 38 psi
Maximum working pressure 125 psi
Test pressure 125 psi

So it's working at about half its maximum pressure and roughly about double
its precharge pressure.

This says it's 86 gallons.
https://www.amazon.com/Amtrol-WX-302-Well-Pressure-Tank/dp/B005VPQ0D0

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 6:44 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 16:12:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:
>
>> BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there,
>> it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump.
>> The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would
>> normally go down the well isn't used.
>
> Wow. All that just from this crappy picture?
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg>

...

Well, that one doesn't take much; it's a jet pump but there's only the
input and one discharge port being used so that pretty-much tells the
story that the down-hole isn't being used (not to mention we also now
know that the hole if 500-ft or so w/ a puny little submersible). :)

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 7:45:00 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 16:12:22 GMT, trader_4 wrote:
>
> > BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there,
> > it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump.
> > The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would
> > normally go down the well isn't used.
>
> Wow. All that just from this crappy picture?
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8580487pump08.jpg>
>
> You are almost certainly correct though, as GE pointed me to Riegel Beloit
> who bought the GE motor division 260-416-5400 who told me to go to GE
> Marathon/Century 800-541-7191 who told me that GE made this motor only for
> Marathon who made it only for Jacuzzi Brothers as a custom built motor
> (that's from memory of the phone calls today looking for a parts diagram).
>
> So can I just buy any 1HP (SF 1.4) 56C frame motor?
> The impeller would also need to be inspected when the motor is removed.
>

Since you need the pump for water for the house, I would probably just buy a whole new pump. Is it worth it to buy a motor, tear it apart, then find out you have a problem with the pump section, getting it back together, need another part, etc? Looks like you got your service life out of it. That is assuming you figure out the problem is the pump. If you have some time, you might find a deal on one online, even ebay.

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 7:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
...

> Since you need the pump for water for the house, I would probably just buy a whole new pump. Is it worth it to buy a motor, tear it apart, then find out you have a problem with the pump section, getting it back together, need another part, etc? Looks like you got your service life out of it. That is assuming you figure out the problem is the pump. If you have some time, you might find a deal on one online, even ebay.
>

...

+1

It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same
form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.

I replaced the isolation valve when hooking up the new well since old
one had gotten where bypassed pretty badly (not too unexpected since it
had been there since 1964 I believe). Just 2" galvanized but it took
both of us and a 4-ft cheater to break the union open to get it out of
there, and this well house is a tight block building much more
weatherproof than that shed so things are in pretty-near pristine
appearance.

I was going to put a ball valve in there but after that decided the
fewer joints to break loose the better so we replaced it with another
gate valve as they have standard length so didn't have to break any more
joints free...besides, the well folks had been around almost a week by
then and had service call come in for others who were out of water in
100 F temps so let 'em get on their way soonest seemed reasonable at the
time. :)

It'll probably be a chore when he gets around to breaking this system
open, too, so the less to be done the better is probably _agoodthing_
(tm) ...

--

[Dean Hoffman]

The next question you should ask is "How do I adjust the air
pressure in my
bladder tank?"
<https://www.ehow.com/how_6025664_adjust-air-pressure-bladder-tank.html>
The temptation to ask if college boys know how to air car tires was
really strong
but I resisted it. There's always Flip Wilson's excuse.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLifea3NHQ>

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 17:20:31 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Well, that one doesn't take much; it's a jet pump but there's only the
> input and one discharge port being used so that pretty-much tells the
> story that the down-hole isn't being used (not to mention we also now
> know that the hole if 500-ft or so w/ a puny little submersible). :)

Well, it might not take much for you, but I didn't notice any of that!

I did notice something funny in the pressure switch today, which does seem
to have an electromagnet inside it (I think) which is energized only when
the power is on and when the pressure is low (I think).

I'm not sure yet, but I can make it go on and off with the power on by
moving this plate back and forth, which has two little dangled contacts.

Contacts pushed open with a stick:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4628253flow06.jpg>

Contacts pushed closed with a stick:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1733078flow07.jpg>

With no power, the plate will not snap back once I open it.
With power, it will snap only if the pressure is low (got to test more).
If the pressure is higher, it won't snap back if I opened it up manually.

That means there are at least three states to this contact plate when there
is power:
a. Open (I can easily manually open it and it will stay open)
b. Closed (I can push it closed but it won't stay closed)
c. Energized closed (It was originally closed and it stayed closed)

I need to test again but I have to use up the water pressure again.

BTW. The sparks at the contacts when I make or break a connection under
power are green. I normally see yellow or blue sparks in things - but these
are a very pretty green!

[Gil]

On 8/14/2018 5:50 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 8/14/2018 3:58 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> ...
>
>> I tested the gauge pressure just now by turning off the power and then
>> running the garden hoses at the house until they petered out.
>> Interestingly, at the booster pump shed, the hose on the wall did NOT
>> peter
>> out, as the pressure gauge barely dropped from a bit over 70psi ....
>>   <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6541228pump03.jpg>
>> to about 66 psi when the water was an unusable dribble at the house
>>   <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5704779pump11.jpg> Gauge at 66psi
>>
>> I could tell that the blue booster tank was 'empty' as I could tilt it by
>> hand ever so slightly when it is empty but I can't budge it when it is
>> full.
>>
>> And yet, when I turned on the faucet on the pump house wall, it was fine!
>>    <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7395493pump12.jpg>
>>
>> So that gauge pressure is really almost completely input pressure!
>>
>>> It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's
>>> frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.
>>
>> The gage appears to be working as there was plenty of pressure (i.e.,
>> 66psi) "at" the booster pump shed - but none a few hundred feet away
>> at the
>> house.
>>
>> So it appears that the "static pressure" of a full tank of water in the

>> 10,000 gallon tanks is about 65psi. The booster pump boosts that up so
>> that

>> the water won't just dribble at the house.

> ...
>
> Water static head is 1 psi/2.3 ft elevation so that would require 65/2.3
> = 28 ft height above that point.

Just wanted to point out, your math is a little off. Should be 65 x 2.3
which indicates a head of 149.5 feet. ( 1 foot of head produces .43 lbs
of pressure.)

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 7:58 PM, Gil wrote:
...

> Just wanted to point out, your math is a little off. Should be 65 x 2.3
> which indicates a head of 149.5 feet. ( 1 foot of head  produces .43 lbs
> of pressure.)

...

trader already beat you to it... :)

--

[Gil]

On 8/14/2018 5:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 14:50:59 GMT, trader_4 wrote:
>
>> Those water tanks must be mighty high and/or mighty high up a hill to
>> get 66 PSI without a pump.
>
> The water tanks are in parallel with each other and they are definitely on
> the same concrete platform as the pump house so their water height is all
> that matters as they are directly behind the booster pump shed and on the
> same concrete platform.
>
> I'm guessing that they're 10 feet high ... they may be a bit taller ... but
> not 15 feet.
>

If as you say, they are only approx. 10 feet, then that is only going to
create approx. 4.3 pounds of pressure to the inlet of the booster pump.
You have a duff gauge and/or a plugged line between the pressure switch
and the pump output.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 16:01:59 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does
> it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...

It's pretty clear now that the two outside (black) wires are the two 120VAC
phases coming in, and the two inside (blue) wires are the two phases going
into the motor.

<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg>

> Well, did you not check for 240V _across_ the two blacks??? One would
> presume nobody's moved anything and got both on the same phase, but... :)

Yeah. 118VAC RMS on each to the green ground when the motor is running and
236VAC RMS to each other when the motor is running, as measured on my DMM.

Interestingly, I originally checked each black incoming phase to the steel
water pipe expecting that to be grounded - but it wasn't all that good as
the voltage was around 20 volts so I used the green ground instead.

> Sure, just take a screwdriver with non-conductive handle and push down
> to close the contacts...let go and it'll reopen if pressure >cutoff or
> run 'til builds pressure if drops while closed.

Something weird happened, but wasn't repeatable, but it could be the
pressure built up.

a. I turned the circuit breaker back on
b. The motor ran
c. I checked all the voltages (which were as expected)
d. With a stick I pulled the contacts open
e. Obviously the motor stopped
f. But when I let go with the stick, I expected the contact to slam back
g. They didn't. They stayed open. Huh?
h. I pushed them closed, expecting them to stay closed
i. They didn't. They opened when I let go of pressure.
j. Huh?

What I'm "thinking" (but need to test) is that there is an electromagnet
which keeps the contacts closed (something kept them closed in step (b)
above. Maybe it was just the lack of pressure though, and not an
electromagnet.

Contacts pushed open:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4628253flow06.jpg>
Contacts pushed closed:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1733078flow07.jpg> contacts closed

Anyway, I'll have to test again as there seems to be three states:
a. Contacts automatically closed and they stay closed
b. Contacts pushed open and they stay open
c. Contacts pushed closed but they won't stay closed

It could depend on the pressure though... but "something" keeps the
contacts closed which didn't do it once I opened them manually.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 17:45:37 GMT, in alt.home.repair you wrote:

> It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same
> form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.

I'm not sure what you're saying there as your edits got garbled (it happens
to all of us), but I do AGREE that buying a motor as a spare is a good idea
given that (a) repair costs more than a motor, and (b) with the pump there
is no water pressure.

Plus, it's always handy to have an extra 1HP motor around to use as a disk
sander or whatever.

The problem of course is matching what is needed to fit nicely.
a. 1 HP (SF 1.4) is a given, as is 115/230VAC & 3450 RPM & Frame 56C.
b. The "jet pump" part seems to be in the "cast iron" head.

BTW, I realized that the model number is actually SHORTER than I posted,
because they mix the model and serial number together, it seems.

The model number seems to be: 5KC39QN
<https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=5KC39QN+motor&ia=web>

I'm still confused about this "jet pump" part of the spec though.

I need to learn more about this "jet pump" part because I think if I just
buy a motor, it's not a "jet pump motor" but just a "motor". The "jet pump"
part seems to be in that cast-iron head - which would likely stay since it
has all the pipes connected to it.

Can I just buy "any old" booster-pump motor that fits those basic specs?
Like, for example, this one?
https://www.sustainablesupply.com/tools-hardware-industrial-supplies/electric-motors/pump-motors

[Arlen Holder]

On 15 Aug 2018 01:16:45 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

> BTW, I realized that the model number is actually SHORTER than I posted,
> because they mix the model and serial number together, it seems.
>
> The model number seems to be: 5KC39QN
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=5KC39QN+motor&ia=web>

First hit explains the model number a bit.
5KC39QN
It might even be just 5KC39 for the model.

<https://shop.dreisilker.com/blog/5kcp39-motors-the-howto-guide-on-replacing-5kcp39-motors/>
5 = motor
KCP = permanent split capacitor (only mine is a KC & not KCP)
39 = 48 frame motor (notice that doesn't agree with the nameplate 56C)
All 48 frame motors have a 1/2" diameter shaft and a 5-1/2" diameter body.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:02:57 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 16:01:59 GMT, dpb wrote:
>
> > Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does
> > it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...
>
> It's pretty clear now that the two outside (black) wires are the two 120VAC
> phases coming in, and the two inside (blue) wires are the two phases going
> into the motor.

Uh oh, I expect you'll be hearing from Fretwell about calling them phases, that's supposed to be verboten. Saying two phases is pure heresy. Where were you when we were having that long electrical engineering discussion about what 240/120 service really is in the other thread?

[trader_4]

I said if it is the pump, you should probably be looking for a whole pump, not a motor. DPB said it doesn't have to be a jet pump either, which I agree with.

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 8:02 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

> It could depend on the pressure though... but "something" keeps the
> contacts closed which didn't do it once I opened them manually.

Of course it depends on the pressure...looks like it ran just long
enough to get above the cut-in point. Remember, it doesn't pull in
until it gets _below_ the setpoint; soon as it's above it'll stay open
until it gets below again even if it hasn't gotten to cut-out. All it
takes is _just_ above and as far as the switch is concerned it's as good
as "stop".

And, yes, I'm sure there's an electromechanical assist in there so the
contacts will "make" and "break" solidly, not drift in and out solely on
the spring compression...

--

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 8:16 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 17:45:37 GMT, in alt.home.repair you wrote:
>
>> It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same
>> form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.
>
> I'm not sure what you're saying there as your edits got garbled (it happens
> to all of us), but I do AGREE that buying a motor as a spare is a good idea
> given that (a) repair costs more than a motor, and (b) with the pump there
> is no water pressure.

Wasn't garbled at all; says exactly what I wrote and meant -- the
replacement pump doesn't have to be a jet pump, any of about same rating
and similar pressure boost will serve the purpose. Whether any cheaper
or not I don't know, but pumps are dime a dozen kinds of articles...

> Plus, it's always handy to have an extra 1HP motor around to use as a disk
> sander or whatever.
>
> The problem of course is matching what is needed to fit nicely.
> a. 1 HP (SF 1.4) is a given, as is 115/230VAC & 3450 RPM & Frame 56C.
> b. The "jet pump" part seems to be in the "cast iron" head.
>
> BTW, I realized that the model number is actually SHORTER than I posted,
> because they mix the model and serial number together, it seems.
>
> The model number seems to be: 5KC39QN
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?&q=5KC39QN+motor&ia=web>
>
> I'm still confused about this "jet pump" part of the spec though.
>
> I need to learn more about this "jet pump" part because I think if I just
> buy a motor, it's not a "jet pump motor" but just a "motor". The "jet pump"
> part seems to be in that cast-iron head - which would likely stay since it
> has all the pipes connected to it.
>
> Can I just buy "any old" booster-pump motor that fits those basic specs?
> Like, for example, this one?
> https://www.sustainablesupply.com/tools-hardware-industrial-supplies/electric-motors/pump-motors

All that matters is that it has the same form factor; whether there's a
single or a couple pretty-much universal for jet pumps I don't know but
I'd guess there are a fairly limited number of designs for any given
pump size class so it's probably not too hard to find one that will work.

As for the frames, those are standardized _excepting_ if a vendor did
build a custom item for a given distributor like you say Marathon may
have done for GE...in that case the standard may be close but they may
have modified something just enough that you had to stay with them for
parts...

<https://www.baldor.com/Shared/pdf/nema_chart_04.pdf>

--

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:02:57 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
> > On 14 Aug 2018 16:01:59 GMT, dpb wrote:
> >
> > > Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does
> > > it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...
> >
> > It's pretty clear now that the two outside (black) wires are the two 120VAC
> > phases coming in, and the two inside (blue) wires are the two phases going
> > into the motor.
>
> Uh oh, I expect you'll be hearing from Fretwell about calling them phases, that's supposed to be verboten. Saying two phases is pure heresy. Where were you when we were having that long electrical engineering discussion about what 240/120 service really is in the other thread?
>
>

>
>
> > <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1169657flow04.jpg>
> >
> > > Well, did you not check for 240V _across_ the two blacks??? One would
> > > presume nobody's moved anything and got both on the same phase, but... :)
> >
> > Yeah. 118VAC RMS on each to the green ground when the motor is running and
> > 236VAC RMS to each other when the motor is running, as measured on my DMM.
> >
> > Interestingly, I originally checked each black incoming phase to the steel
> > water pipe expecting that to be grounded - but it wasn't all that good as
> > the voltage was around 20 volts so I used the green ground instead.
> >

Forgot to add, you should find out why it's not grounded. For starters, the green supply ground wire should ground the motor and since the pipe is steel, it should be grounded too. Probably it is, maybe you just didn't have a good connection to it with the test probe.

[dpb]

Since they're paired and not stacked, the second adds volume but not
pressure, so it's only more like 2.3 psia.

On the latter, he's got a pressurized pressure tank just upstream a
couple feet that's producing the static pressure reading since the
system is still full...

--

[Dean Hoffman]

On 8/13/18 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 13 Aug 2018 18:25:12 GMT, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>
>> 70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the
>> pump starting point.
>
> Thanks for mentioning that the 70 psi is the shutdown point.
> I'm guessing it's measuring that right off the bladder, even though the
> gauge is on the pump itself.
>
> Given that the gauge generally reads the same all the time, that 70 psi
> "might" also be the pressure of the column of water in the full tanks (I'd
> have to do the F=P/A math) where the tanks are ten feet high a few feet
> behind the motor).
>
> One thing I need to look at is whether the pressure gauge shows a lower
> pressure when the home has no water pressure. I "think" it always shows the
> same pressure - so that's why I think it might be showing the pressure of
> the water column BEFORE it gets to the pump (I'd have to check in the
> morning as I had not thought about it until now).
>
>> The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.
>> Notice the tube leading away from it.
>
> Ah. That tube. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it!
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5845028pressure08.jpg>
>
> Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed.
> I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5816454pressure03.jpg>
>
> That is interesting. If I bypass that, the pump should go on and off
> (depending on if it's normally open or normally closed).
>
> For it to be a pressure switch, it needs a 'sensor' somewhere.
> Maybe the sensor is under those contacts?
>
>> I'd probably just replace the entire pump. There will be wear on
>> the impeller so it won't be at its most efficient.
>
> I don't disagree. I've disassembled plenty of pumps, where almost all the
> time the outdoor water pumps have these long bolts that break EVERY damn
> time. I spend most of my time trying to get them out.
>
> Meanwhile, the bearings are frozen onto the shaft (especially if they were
> making noise).
>
> The good news is that bearings are dirt cheap - the bad news is that taking
> apart the motors generally is impossible due to those long bolts that
> break.
>
> I don't mind replacing the pump, but I can't find an exact one on Google.
> The model number just doesn't match anything. I do have an email that I
> sent to GE and I will call General Electric in the morning to ask where I
> can get a replacement.
>
> I'm not beholden to GE - but I have to match that 'frame'.
> Do you have advice as to what the frame is?
> I don't see it explicitly on the label.
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>
> Do you?
>
Answered in another place. A farmer solution would be to
replace the
pressure switch since it's the easiest and cheapest to try. There's no
way to
know if your pump motor's inherent protection is kicking out and resetting
unless you happen to be there and can feel if the motor is getting hot.
You might want to think about using a hose on the intake of the pump
if you decide to replace it. It would ease replacement if you can't find
a duplicate pump. Maybe Sharkbite or similar fittings on the output side
also.
I think there are cell phone apps available that would call you if
the water
level in your storage tanks drops too much.

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 9:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

...

> Forgot to add, you should find out why it's not grounded. For starters, the green supply ground wire should ground the motor and since the pipe is steel, it should be grounded too. Probably it is, maybe you just didn't have a good connection to it with the test probe.

...

Well, there was one short chunk of PVC at the pressure tank, who knows
what's been done elsewhere... :)

--

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 9:17 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 8/14/2018 8:03 PM, Gil wrote:

...

>> If as you say, they are only approx. 10 feet, then that is only going
>> to create approx. 4.3 pounds of pressure to the inlet of the booster
>> pump. You have a duff gauge and/or a plugged line between the pressure
>> switch and the pump output.
>
> Since they're paired and not stacked, the second adds volume but not
> pressure, so it's only more like 2.3 psia.

...


Ignore that, you're right, I was again thinking of the 2.3 ft/psi
instead of 0.43 psi/ft...

--

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 9:12 PM, dpb wrote:
...

> All that matters is that it has the same form factor; whether there's a
> single or a couple pretty-much universal for jet pumps I don't know but
> I'd guess there are a fairly limited number of designs for any given
> pump size class so it's probably not too hard to find one that will work.

...


That of course is only if you're trying to replace the motor and keep
the pump.

Like T4, I think the better course given their age is just replace both
and be done with it and get another 30 years.

--

[Dean Hoffman]

On 8/13/18 8:08 PM, trader_4 wrote:

> IDK why you call it a pressure booster pump instead of just a pump.
> It sounds like it's a jet pump and the only one. Jet pumps differ from
> a piston pump in that they can bring up water from depths that are lower
> than the max lift of a piston pump, which I think is like ~28 ft?
> They use two pipes, one pushes water down the well to the other part
> of the pump where a jet action picks up water and it comes back on
> the other line.

I'd never heard of the two pipe system until you mentioned it. So I
had to look it up. Popular Mechanics has a short article.
<https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/how-to/a152/1275136/>
I'm in an area where a single pipe system is good enough. We used
to have artisan wells here. I don't know if any of those are still working.

[dpb]

On 8/15/2018 5:35 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
...

>    I'm in an area where a single pipe system is good enough.  We used
> to have artisan wells here.  I don't know if any of those are still
> working.

I think they graduated to sculpture... :)

"artesian"

There were a number in low-lying areas around here, too, but the water
table has now dropped sufficiently owing to widespread irrigation that
I'm unaware of any still running.

--

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 19:01:49 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Of course it depends on the pressure...looks like it ran just long
> enough to get above the cut-in point. Remember, it doesn't pull in
> until it gets _below_ the setpoint; soon as it's above it'll stay open
> until it gets below again even if it hasn't gotten to cut-out. All it
> takes is _just_ above and as far as the switch is concerned it's as good
> as "stop".
>
> And, yes, I'm sure there's an electromechanical assist in there so the
> contacts will "make" and "break" solidly, not drift in and out solely on
> the spring compression...

Thanks for confirming how the pressure switch works.

I ran some more tests today, where what appears to have happened is that
there may be an electromagnet of some sort because something snaps those
contact closed with a bit of force that I had to overcome with the wooden
stick and then it wouldn't re-engage (so it's not just a mechanical
spring).

I agree with your assessment.

Hopefully I'll test more for sure today as I left the booster pump ganged
circuit breaker off all night so there is no water pressure in the house at
this moment.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 18:39:46 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> Uh oh, I expect you'll be hearing from Fretwell about calling
> them phases, that's supposed to be verboten.

Oh? Yikes. I didn't know about Fretwell. I didn't even think that there's
anything wrong with using the word phases but I agree that there are two
different concepts going on, where the three lines emanating from a power
plant are definitely three phases at 120 degrees apart, but by the time two
of those multiply-stepped-down lines hit my transformer, they're in a
center-tap transformer configuration, which isn't the same thing.

But I think I'll try to stay out of phase discussions as this is about
booster pump motors.

> Saying two phases is pure heresy.

It is?

> Where were you when we were having that long electrical engineering
> discussion about what 240/120 service really is in the other thread?

I only come here when I have a problem to solve. :)

I'm not really all that concerned about "phase" terminology though, but I
can imagine that others are - so I appreciate the warning to use my terms
more delicately.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 19:27:35 GMT, dpb wrote:

> Well, there was one short chunk of PVC at the pressure tank, who knows
> what's been done elsewhere... :)

Good point that there is PVC all over ... which there is. All over.

For example, the four-inch pipe coming out of the storage tanks is PVC,
which means that the steel input you see is actually screwed into PVC.

Same thing on the output, where the pipes in the ground leading to the
house directly outside the booster pump shed appear to be PVC.

I actually got around 75 volts or so to the pipes, as I looked at my
pictures before deleting them from the phone.

But your response explains what we're seeing, which is all that matters,
which is understanding what is.

[dpb]

On 8/14/2018 4:51 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
...

> The main question now is where to check for voltage:
> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6939192pump06.jpg>
>
> Obviously the green is a common ground.
> There are two blue wires going to the motor.
> It's hard to tell colors from that picture so I might clean them up a bit
> with the power off.
>
> The two black appear to be the input lines but it's hard to tell from that
> picture.

Well, when you look at the overview, since the switch box is mounted
directly on the motor, the two going to it can't be anything else
leaving only the two to the right... :)

...

> I'll clean it up a bit and check the voltages, where I would expect to have
> 220VAC on the input at all times that the water tanks are full but nothing
> on the output until the pressure drops to somewhere less than 70 psi.

Actually that will be closer to 50 psi or so if the switch is adjusted
to anything close to a normal 20 lb cycle. For this application they
may have tightened that up some but that would be normal. That relates
back to your other comment last evening regarding being surprised didn't
pull in again after you'd broken contact after a short running time.

From the above comment regarding colors, it looks to me like _perhaps_
the two supplies (blue) have been hot from the connectors leading to
discoloration of the insulation. It may just be from exposure but that
they're blackened ends and then transition to pristine as get farther
from the connectors makes me question.

I'd check on that while the pump has been running a while and also see
about cleaning up those connections. I'm not that keen on the slide-on
connectors for higher current applications; there's really not that much
good contact area often.

--

[dpb]

On 8/15/2018 11:48 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> From the above comment regarding colors, it looks to me like _perhaps_
> the two supplies (blue) have been hot from the connectors leading to
> discoloration of the insulation.  It may just be from exposure but that
> they're blackened ends and then transition to pristine as get farther
> from the connectors makes me question.
>
> I'd check on that while the pump has been running a while and also see
> about cleaning up those connections.  I'm not that keen on the slide-on
> connectors for higher current applications; there's really not that much
> good contact area often.
>
"From the above comment regarding colors, it looks to me like _perhaps_

the two supplies (blue) have been hot..."

Check that--blue is the motor leads, not supply...

--

[dpb]

Oh, from pictures one can't tell, the insulation doesn't _look_ hardened
but if that were so it would a be dead giveaway "Houston, we have a
problem"...

--

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 18:49:53 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> I said if it is the pump, you should probably be looking for a
> whole pump, not a motor. DPB said it doesn't have to be a jet
> pump either, which I agree with

Ah. Good point. I was equating pump & motor, where they're clearly
different.

The motor ends at the spinning shaft.
The pump is that cast iron stuff with all the pipes attached to it.

I agree that replacing the whole thing (pump + motor) is probably better
than trying to rebuild the motor and seals since I can't easily source the
motor bearings and seals without having better proactive sources (like a
good parts diagram).

I'm ok with plumbing although I'd prefer less rather than more of it.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 19:12:37 GMT, dpb wrote:

> the replacement pump doesn't have to be a jet pump, any of about same rating
> and similar pressure boost will serve the purpose.

Agreed. Thanks for the clarification that:
a. Any pump of similar rating will do, as,
b. It doesn't need to be a "jet pump".

> All that matters is that it has the same form factor; whether there's a
> single or a couple pretty-much universal for jet pumps I don't know but
> I'd guess there are a fairly limited number of designs for any given
> pump size class so it's probably not too hard to find one that will work.

I agree that the only thing that matters is the "form factor" which means
it has to fit with the pipes without too much redesign of piping if I
replace the entire pump.

If I replace the entire pump, I'd likely replace the pressure switch at the
same time I would think.

> As for the frames, those are standardized _excepting_ if a vendor did
> build a custom item for a given distributor like you say Marathon may
> have done for GE...in that case the standard may be close but they may
> have modified something just enough that you had to stay with them for
> parts...
> <https://www.baldor.com/Shared/pdf/nema_chart_04.pdf>

Thanks for that chart - although I had to grab my magnifying glasses!

Given I'm looking for a frame 56C:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>

The frame is a 56C according to the label...
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2105511pressure05.jpg>

Unfortunately as you noted, the third line of your chart has a "56" and a
"56H" but no "56C" (where the "C" may or may not be significant).

The nice thing is the chart has measurements so I may need to get a rule up
there and take some...