Cat 5 for automatic sprinkler wiring

[jeffric...@gmail.com]

Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall and winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:38:54 AM UTC-5, jeffric...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall and winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone?

Cat 5 wire is generally much smaller gauge, 24/26.
Sprinkler wire is 18 gauge. Cat 5 is for signaling
voltages/currents, not to deliver power to solenoids.
So I'd say the answer is no, it shouldn't be used,
but it might work. And even if you did use
it, then it would have to be Cat 5 rated for direct burial.

Why did they run Cat 5 to the sprinkler areas instead
of normal sprinkler wire that everyone else uses?

[philo]

Yep , might as well get the right stuff...

It's about $75 for 250 feet

[jeffric...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:00:41 AM UTC-7, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:38:54 AM UTC-5, jeffric...@gmail.com wrote: > Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall and winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone? Cat 5 wire is generally much smaller gauge, 24/26. Sprinkler wire is 18 gauge. Cat 5 is for signaling voltages/currents, not to deliver power to solenoids. So I'd say the answer is no, it shouldn't be used, but it might work. And even if you did use it, then it would have to be Cat 5 rated for direct burial. Why did they run Cat 5 to the sprinkler areas instead of normal sprinkler wire that everyone else uses?

Thanks for your response. The wiring is actually run through the house and is not and will not be buried. From what I can read about the solenoid needs a .30amp to open the valve and .19 amp to keep it open and each wire from the Cat 5 has a max current of .57amp so I'm thinking it can work. I'm going to try it tonight when I get home. I have no idea why the low voltage guys ran Cat 5, and I didn't look until this past weekend.

[tra...@optonline.net]

24 gauge wire is 26 ohms per 100 ft
26 is 41 ohms
18 gauge, which is standard sprinker wire is 6

You can do the math for your installation. There is also NEC code
that covers some of these issues, not sure what it says about what
you're proposing to do. It's kind of unusual for the sprinkelr
control valves to be located inside the house. Every installation
I've seen, they are in boxes in the ground.

[Stormin Mormon]

Check with the fire marshall. You'd not want
the house to burn down because your sprinklers
are wired wrong.

I've never seen low voltage wiring sprinklers,
what's with that?

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 2/11/2014 12:11 PM, philo wrote:
>
>
> Yep , might as well get the right stuff...
>
> It's about $75 for 250 feet

Goes to the annunciator board, and auto
dialer?

[Steve F.]

On 2/11/2014 5:43 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> I've never seen low voltage wiring sprinklers,
> what's with that?
>

Really? I have never seen high voltage wiring sprinklers. :-)

Regardless, Cat 5 is rather odd.

[jeffric...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:38:54 AM UTC-7, jeffric...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall and winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone?

Fortunately I work at a place that employs many electrical engineers, I got a hold of one with a Phd in EE, and hashed out a plan. Got home, tried it and worked. Used a multimeter to measure data and no loss in amps or voltage; opened, closed and kept open the solenoid with no issues. The volts and amps are well in the range of what Cat 5 can handle. I will not bury the cable but will use conduit from the house to the valves and make sure the cable is not exposed to moisture in the valve box. Maybe I will make a video and put it on Youtube. Thanks for taking the time to answer!

[jeffric...@gmail.com]

The timer control box is in the garage, not the valves. Sorry if it sounded like that.

[Oren]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:43:31 -0500, Stormin Mormon
<cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I've never seen low voltage wiring sprinklers,
>what's with that?

... guess you have never seen low voltage landscape lighting either.

--
"Dumb is local...As soon as you go 15 miles away from your dumbness, you see how dumb you are." -- Sherrod Small

[Oren]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:03:34 -0800 (PST), jeffric...@gmail.com
wrote:

> I will not bury the cable but will use conduit from the house to the valves and make sure the cable is not exposed to moisture in the valve box. Maybe I will make a video and put it on Youtube.

I'd be interested in the video. What kind of conduit, PVC? The wire
has to exit, then it is exposed to the chance of moisture when the
valve eventually leaks water and floods the valve box with water.

Can you tell us the marking on the present wire - low voltage wire has
conductor wire pairs that could be mistaken for CAT 5.

Not mine though.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:54:17 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:03:34 -0800 (PST), jeffric...@gmail.com
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I will not bury the cable but will use conduit from the house to the valves and make sure the cable is not exposed to moisture in the valve box. Maybe I will make a video and put it on Youtube.
>
>
>
> I'd be interested in the video. What kind of conduit, PVC? The wire
>
> has to exit, then it is exposed to the chance of moisture when the
>
> valve eventually leaks water and floods the valve box with water.
>

I don't understand why some people want to re-engineer a simple
job into a non-standard and far more difficult abortion. The
proper direct burial rated sprinkler
cable, 18 gauge, is available, it's relatively inexpensive and
very easy to install. Instead,
he's proposing to run conduit and use Cat5 which is typically 24 or 26
gauge, that most likely is rated for indoor use in dry locations only.
Those small wires are going to be more difficult to work with, more fragile, running conduit costs money and time. But more importantly, you're not supposed to take a cable rated for dry locations and put it underground,
whether it's in a conduit or not. In addition to the issue that you
pointed out, ie that exposed portion of the cable is obviously going
to be in a wet valve box, any underground conduit is subject to
moisture just from condensation. That's why you can't take Romex
for example and put in in an underground conduit.

Can he get away with it? Maybe, but I don't see the point. And in the
future, if someone ever calls a pro to work on it, one look at this
and they are going to know it was an amateur job. IDK about anyone
else, but I'd rather have stuff done right, look right, especially
when it's easier to do that compared to what he's proposing.

[Bob_Villa]

Wouldn't it be prudent to tell the OP your concerns instead of looking for approval from Oren?

[Daring Dufas: Hypocrite TeaBillie on welfare]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:38:54 AM UTC-6, jeffric...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall and winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone?

generally they use braided wire so it can flex.

[tra...@optonline.net]

braided? you mean stranded? I've never seen sprinkler
wire that was either. Typical is solid.

[jeffric...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:41:51 AM UTC-7, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:54:17 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote: > On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:03:34 -0800 (PST), jeffric.@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > > > I will not bury the cable but will use conduit from the house to the valves and make sure the cable is not exposed to moisture in the valve box. Maybe I will make a video and put it on Youtube. > > > > I'd be interested in the video. What kind of conduit, PVC? The wire > > has to exit, then it is exposed to the chance of moisture when the > > valve eventually leaks water and floods the valve box with water. > I don't understand why some people want to re-engineer a simple job into a non-standard and far more difficult abortion. The proper direct burial rated sprinkler cable, 18 gauge, is available, it's relatively inexpensive and very easy to install. Instead, he's proposing to run conduit and use Cat5 which is typically 24 or 26 gauge, that most likely is rated for indoor use in dry locations only. Those small wires are going to be more difficult to work with, more fragile, running conduit costs money and time. But more importantly, you're not supposed to take a cable rated for dry locations and put it underground, whether it's in a conduit or not. In addition to the issue that you pointed out, ie that exposed portion of the cable is obviously going to be in a wet valve box, any underground conduit is subject to moisture just from condensation. That's why you can't take Romex for example and put in in an underground conduit. Can he get away with it? Maybe, but I don't see the point. And in the future, if someone ever calls a pro to work on it, one look at this and they are going to know it was an amateur job. IDK about anyone else, but I'd rather have stuff done right, look right, especially when it's easier to do that compared to what he's proposing.




Let me clarify some things, the low voltage certified electricans which was inspected and passed have installed Cat5e 24AWG though the internal structure of the house, not buried outside. I am NOT going to bury the cat5 at all. There is a electrical box inside the outside part of the exterior wall where the cat5 ends, I am going to get a junction box place it at the exterior location of where the cat5 exits then connecting it to actual sprinkler 18 gauge wire to the valves and valve box where I place the connections in a grease connection tube to prevent exposure to water.

The alternative is for me to dig a trench completely around my house, which is not a trival distance nor easier than what I'm doing, buy more wire, drill holes in my walls...hmmm... seems like the cat5 meets all the perameters necessary to connect the valves safely and fucntionally, why not do it... I'm not the only one thats done it, there are a few people that now I've researched it more that have done it sucessfully and operating without problems for years.

[tra...@optonline.net]

That makes a lot more sense. When you said:

"I will not bury the cable but will use conduit from the house to the valves and make sure the cable is not exposed to moisture in the valve box. "

it sure sounded like you were going to use the Cat5 in an underground
conduit. But if I understand it correctly, wherever the controller is,
you're going to use the Cat5 inside the house to get to another location
in the house where you can then go outside to the valves.

The thing you should check is the NEC section on low voltage,
current limited wiring. Cat5 is probably covered under communications
circuits, not power circuits. A lot of people think that because it's
low voltage, there are no codes and you can do what you want. What you
have is a Class 2 low voltage power application and there are NEC codes,
including what kind of cable is permissible. It's possible that Cat5 cable
intended for signaling applications, doesn't meet the reqts for what you're using it for. Issues there are fire/smoke rating of the jacket, etc.
It might be OK, but it should be checked.

[Oren]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 06:03:55 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
<pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Wouldn't it be prudent to tell the OP your concerns instead of looking for approval from Oren?

Seems he did give the OP some concerns to consider. He even gave you
some things to consider about electrical panel SPD's. You posted your
opinion why the panel SPD's are "useless". Nothing I saw you right
supported that notion; except your opinion, in which your are entitled
to have.

Trader does not need my "approval", just so you know.

[Tekkie®]

tra...@optonline.net posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

>
> braided?
>

That was his armpit hair he was referring to.

--
Tekkie

[Bob_Villa]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:22:02 PM UTC-6, Oren wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 06:03:55 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
>
> <pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Wouldn't it be prudent to tell the OP your concerns instead of looking for approval from Oren?
>
>
>
> Seems he did give the OP some concerns to consider.

Yes he did...after I mentioned it.

[Oren]

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 18:33:52 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa

<pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:22:02 PM UTC-6, Oren wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 06:03:55 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa
>>
>> <pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >Wouldn't it be prudent to tell the OP your concerns instead of looking for approval from Oren?
>>
>>
>>
>> Seems he did give the OP some concerns to consider.
>
>Yes he did...after I mentioned it.

He gave you something to consider after you said electrical panels
SPD's are "useless", too. You snipped and did not address how he
sought my approval, though.

--
Hillary Clinton: I haven't driven a car since 1996

[tra...@optonline.net]

Excuse me? I was the first person to respond to the OP's original post,
long before you ever showed up.

[Bob_Villa]

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:46:58 AM UTC-6, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> Excuse me? I was the first person to respond to the OP's original post,
>
> long before you ever showed up.

No, excuse me!

[jamesgang]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:31:23 AM UTC-5, jeffric...@gmail.com wrote:

If you have excess wires to the location you could double them up to lower the resistance.

[Tekkie®]

jamesgang posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

> If you have excess wires to the location you could double them up to lower the resistance.
>

BZZZT wrong, next please...

--
Tekkie

[gregz]

I've used 4 pair for some things. Putting 4 in parallel makes 18 gauge.

Greg

[tra...@optonline.net]

Sigh. Again you can do what you want, but it's a code violation
to use small conductors in parallel, even for low voltage power. I
believe that is the point Tekkie was making.

[Tekkie®]

tra...@optonline.net posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

>

> Sigh. Again you can do what you want, but it's a code violation
> to use small conductors in parallel, even for low voltage power. I
> believe that is the point Tekkie was making.
>

Exactly!

--
Tekkie

[tra...@optonline.net]

One other thing worth mentioning in this plan to use Cat 5 for
sprinkler wiring in the house. The OP mentioned talking with a
PHd EE at work and
being told to take some measurements to confirm that it works. Hopefully
one of those measurements was to look at the power source rating and
make sure that whatever wire is used, it can safely handle the max
short circuit current that the controller can supply. Presumably this
is a class 2 device and the rating will be on the transformer. Just
because a valve he has works with say 100ma, doesn't mean that's all the
wire has to be able to handle.

[jamesgang]

On Monday, February 17, 2014 4:09:03 PM UTC-5, Tekkie® wrote:

Then you should say that. Because using multiple conductors does increase the current capacity. This is one of those cases where I probably would not care about the code.

[dpb]

On 2/11/2014 8:05 PM, jeffric...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:22:05 AM UTC-7,
> tra...@optonline.net
wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:40:32 PM UTC-5,
>> jeffric...@gmail.com
wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:00:41 AM UTC-7,
tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:38:54 AM UTC-5,
jeffric...@gmail.com wrote:

> Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? ...

>> Cat 5 is for signaling voltages/currents, not to deliver power to
>> solenoids. So I'd say the answer is no, it shouldn't be used, but
>> it might work. And even if you did use it, then it would have to be
>> Cat 5 rated for direct burial. Why did they run Cat 5 to the
>> sprinkler areas instead of normal sprinkler wire that everyone else
>> uses?

...

>>> Thanks for your response. The wiring is actually run through the
>>> house and is not and will not be buried. From what I can read
>>> about the solenoid needs a .30amp to open the valve and .19 amp
>>> to keep it open

...

>> you're proposing to do. It's kind of unusual for the sprinkelr
>> control valves to be located inside the house. Every installation
>> I've seen, they are in boxes in the ground.
>
> The timer control box is in the garage, not the valves. Sorry if it
> sounded like that.

So how does the signal get to the solenoid if it's not buried to it???

Sounds like there is a Cat 5 for control and "regular" sprinkler wire to
the valve solenoids, maybe?

--

[tra...@optonline.net]

I think what he's saying is that they ran Cat5 to various spots inside
the house. There is Cat5 wiring inside the house from the sprinkler
controller in the garage to the couple of places inside the house
that are near where the outside sprinkler valves are. He's proposing
to use the Cat5 from the controller, through the house, then transition
to sprinkler wire for the underground run to the valves where it exits
the house. The alternative would be to run sprinkler wire underground
all the way, but that would require a much longer run underground and
around the house. At least that's what I think he's saying.

[sms]

On 2/11/2014 8:38 AM, jeffric...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall and winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone?

It depends on the gauge. Cat 5 could be anywhere from 28AWG to 24AWG.
24AWG could handle the current of a valve solenoid (about 300mA to
activate, 230mA to hold). 24AWG is rated at 570mA. 26AWG would work too.
28AWG would be a bad idea; it would almost certainly work, but you'd be
exceeding the current capacity by a slight amount so the resistance
would go up and the voltage to the valve would decrease but the valve
would still operate.

So if it's 24AWG then it'd be fine, if a little strange.

[tra...@optonline.net]

As I pointed out before, you're ignoring the *power source*. This is like saying 18 gauge wire is fine
off an AC panel because it's only going to a 100 watt light.
The cable has to be able to support the max worst case current
that the controller is capable of supplying.

[Alex Fan]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 at 8:38:54 AM UTC-8, jeffric...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall and winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone?

It will work fine. Please get cable rated for POE+ and outdoor/direct burial rated. POE+ is rated higher voltage/amperage then Sprinkler required.

[Scott Lurndal]

Alex Fan <200...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 at 8:38:54=E2=80=AFAM UTC-8, jeffric...@gmail=
>.com wrote:
>> Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall a=
>nd winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys=
> installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and =

>the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone?
>

>It will work fine. Please get cable rated for POE+ and outdoor/direct buri=

>al rated. POE+ is rated higher voltage/amperage then Sprinkler required.

Cat5 for sprinklers? Not a very good idea at all. Sprinkers run best
from 18 or 16 AWG (depending on length of run); the 24AWG in Cat 5 is
a bit undersized for the valve open current.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:39:38 GMT,

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

>Alex Fan <200...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 at 8:38:54=E2=80=AFAM UTC-8, jeffric...@gmail=
>>.com wrote:
>>> Anyone use Cat 5 for sprinkler wiring? I had a home built over the fall a=
>>nd winter and now I beginning to set up my sprinklers. The low voltage guys=
>> installed Cat 5 to my garage and to both sprinkler areas in the front and =
>>the back yard. Now I'm wondering if I can use the wire. Anyone?

I don't understand. You seem to say it's already insalled for your
sprinklers, and yet you wonder if you can use it? Aren't you using it
already? What does Cat5 do in your garage?

>>
>>It will work fine. Please get cable rated for POE+ and outdoor/direct buri=
>>al rated. POE+ is rated higher voltage/amperage then Sprinkler required.
>
>Cat5 for sprinklers? Not a very good idea at all. Sprinkers run best
>from 18 or 16 AWG (depending on length of run); the 24AWG in Cat 5 is
>a bit undersized for the valve open current.

I thought the whole post was strange. Maybe the low voltage guys had
extra cat5 so they used it. Does it even come designed for burial?

[Bob F]

Yes. I have some cat5 direct burial cable.