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New Water Heater equals Air in Lines?
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rdoc
Mar 5, 2013, 9:19:37 PM3/5/13
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Some Background:
So... a little while back I replaced the electric water heater. We get a lot
of minerals and sulfur gas in our well and it was finally too much for the
bottom element. It was a straight-forward job of unscrewing the hot and cold
lines from the insulated nipples, slide the old one out, new nipples, crank
down the flex lines and reattach the 220. Only real difference this one has
is the digital temp deal on the side... set at 130F. I know some won't like
that temperature but there are no children or elderly but I have immune
issues left over from Lyme disease and it's not worth not having your water
at biologically safe temperatures, especially with a well.
The Problem:
Ever since the installation I have had air in the hot lines. This is present
in both the feeds to the front and back of the house and affects all the
spigots. It never gets worse but it never gets better... any time you run a
faucet it is fine until the hot water makes it to the tap and then it
gurgles and spits every few minutes.
I can't see any way for air to get in the lines at the heater level (they
split right above the unit) but that's where it has to come from or it would
not affect both ends of the house. I wondered if the holding tank was water
logging any faster than usual, but it is not (old fashioned but not old
galvanized tank style). We get the sulfur gas like many wells out here that
turns everything red and brown but one would not think this would occur from
that on the exact day the new heater is installed. It certainly is annoying.
What could be causing this?
Thanks.
posted to home.repair and rural in hopes of hitting pertinent experience.
So... a little while back I replaced the electric water heater. We get a lot
of minerals and sulfur gas in our well and it was finally too much for the
bottom element. It was a straight-forward job of unscrewing the hot and cold
lines from the insulated nipples, slide the old one out, new nipples, crank
down the flex lines and reattach the 220. Only real difference this one has
is the digital temp deal on the side... set at 130F. I know some won't like
that temperature but there are no children or elderly but I have immune
issues left over from Lyme disease and it's not worth not having your water
at biologically safe temperatures, especially with a well.
The Problem:
Ever since the installation I have had air in the hot lines. This is present
in both the feeds to the front and back of the house and affects all the
spigots. It never gets worse but it never gets better... any time you run a
faucet it is fine until the hot water makes it to the tap and then it
gurgles and spits every few minutes.
I can't see any way for air to get in the lines at the heater level (they
split right above the unit) but that's where it has to come from or it would
not affect both ends of the house. I wondered if the holding tank was water
logging any faster than usual, but it is not (old fashioned but not old
galvanized tank style). We get the sulfur gas like many wells out here that
turns everything red and brown but one would not think this would occur from
that on the exact day the new heater is installed. It certainly is annoying.
What could be causing this?
Thanks.
posted to home.repair and rural in hopes of hitting pertinent experience.
rdoc
Mar 5, 2013, 9:37:53 PM3/5/13
to
"rdoc" <be...@this.net> wrote in message
news:AImdnVJVqqchOqvM...@giganews.com...
Paul Drahn
Mar 6, 2013, 12:02:16 AM3/6/13
to
escape? Just pop it a bit until just water comes out.
Paul
micky
Mar 6, 2013, 5:37:48 AM3/6/13
to
On Tue, 5 Mar 2013 21:19:37 -0500, "rdoc" <be...@this.net> wrote:
>
>
>I can't see any way for air to get in the lines at the heater level (they
>split right above the unit) but that's where it has to come from or it would
>not affect both ends of the house. I wondered if the holding tank was water
>logging any faster than usual, but it is not (old fashioned but not old
>galvanized tank style). We get the sulfur gas like many wells out here that
>turns everything red and brown but one would not think this would occur from
>that on the exact day the new heater is installed. It certainly is annoying.
>
>What could be causing this?
fIs it possible the sulfur is reacting with something in the HWH and
>
>
>I can't see any way for air to get in the lines at the heater level (they
>split right above the unit) but that's where it has to come from or it would
>not affect both ends of the house. I wondered if the holding tank was water
>logging any faster than usual, but it is not (old fashioned but not old
>galvanized tank style). We get the sulfur gas like many wells out here that
>turns everything red and brown but one would not think this would occur from
>that on the exact day the new heater is installed. It certainly is annoying.
>
>What could be causing this?
making gas. Some material in the new HWH that wasn't in the old one?
As tp air entering, if there were a leak, it seems a lot more likely
water would be exiting. (Of course I have city water which is under
pressure. I don't know how well water systerms are set up.)
Especially when you're not usig the hot water, but if there is a
chance air is getting sucked in, maybe you can at the joints you
fiddled with for the installation, wrap a soaking wet towl around the
joint and maybe that will keep air from getting in, for the length of
a test. This is just a guess. I've had spitting but only after
water was drained from pipes.
NapalmHeart
Mar 6, 2013, 6:09:29 AM3/6/13
to
"micky" <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:0t6ej8p2v5k649j3i...@4ax.com...
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 6, 2013, 9:08:51 AM3/6/13
to
On Mar 6, 6:09 am, "NapalmHeart" <kol...@freedomnet.org> wrote:
> "micky" <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> You might want to try pulling the anode rod.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Unstated is how long this has been going on. Has water
been drawn from all the hot water faucets to get air out
of all the lines? If all else has been ruled out, then I would
agree it might be the anode rod reacting and generating gas
and that would be worth ruling out. Assuming of course that
the rod can be pulled. If it's a basement and no clearance,
then that's a problem.
> "micky" <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Unstated is how long this has been going on. Has water
been drawn from all the hot water faucets to get air out
of all the lines? If all else has been ruled out, then I would
agree it might be the anode rod reacting and generating gas
and that would be worth ruling out. Assuming of course that
the rod can be pulled. If it's a basement and no clearance,
then that's a problem.
rdoc
Mar 6, 2013, 9:15:03 AM3/6/13
to
"Paul Drahn" <pdr...@webformixair.com> wrote in message
news:kh6ii5$41u$1...@dont-email.me...
read somewhere not to test them so as to not make them pop prematurely.
Maybe I'll turn it off and run it down to lukewarm and open it to see but
one would think that after a month or so and all the air that's hit the
spigots that it would be purged. Of course, after this long I'm open to
anything, just about.
rdoc
Mar 6, 2013, 9:15:04 AM3/6/13
to
"micky" <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:0t6ej8p2v5k649j3i...@4ax.com...
makeup of the tank.
rdoc
Mar 6, 2013, 9:15:04 AM3/6/13
to
"NapalmHeart" <kol...@freedomnet.org> wrote in message
news:kh782p$u1l$1...@dont-email.me...
to have that there and in good shape. These minerals can wreak havoc on
elements. It doesn't *appear* that anything is being hurt by this
situation... pulling the anode might guarantee that something gets hurt,
wouldn't it?
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 6, 2013, 9:59:33 AM3/6/13
to
On Mar 6, 9:15 am, "rdoc" <b...@this.net> wrote:
> "NapalmHeart" <kol...@freedomnet.org> wrote in message
>
> news:kh782p$u1l$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "micky" <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> "NapalmHeart" <kol...@freedomnet.org> wrote in message
>
> news:kh782p$u1l$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:0t6ej8p2v5k649j3i...@4ax.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
He's suggesting pulling the anode to see if it's the source
> - Show quoted text -
of the problem. Since you have sulfur and a lot of minerals,
it's possible that the water is reacting with the anode, causing gas.
If it is the anode, there are ones made of other
metals, Al?, that don't react as much. They are typically used to
solve problems of the water smelling bad.
How long has this been going on now? At all hot water
faucets?
rdoc
Mar 6, 2013, 10:58:06 AM3/6/13
to
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:f9dbf46f-d2cb-4aa8...@c6g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
house and I've waited it out for a couple of months hoping to see some other
reason present itself. It only starts after the hot water replaces the cold
at the taps.
This is a Whirlpool ES50R123-45D and it is 48 inches high and up on three
bricks. It would be very close as for clearing at the floorboards above. It
might depend on whether it can be navigated through some pipes and such
above. I had to replace one of these a long time ago at an in-law's house
but I really don't remember much about it, now. Seems to me that theirs
being rotted off was no big deal getting out but angling the new one in gave
us trouble... I even want to say we cut an inch or two off but I might be
mixing memories with something else as we always are into something around
this farm. Come to think of it... they have low ceilings down their place.
How long is a the anode and can I buy one at the big box hardware or do I
special order one? My water goes through spells where it smells worse than
other spells, but now that you mention it these last couple of months have
been really bad.
Thanks again.
willshak
Mar 6, 2013, 1:22:39 PM3/6/13
to
or: http://preview.tinyurl.com/c54adyq
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @
chaniarts
Mar 6, 2013, 2:38:34 PM3/6/13
to
nestork
Mar 6, 2013, 5:12:55 PM3/6/13
to
'chaniarts[_3_ Wrote:
> ;3025835']
> they make foldable anodes for low clearance situations
Yes, they're called "segmented" anode rods, but if you just say that you
want one that'll bend, fold or flex cuz of the lack of overhead
clearance, then everyone will know what you mean.
[image:
http://shop.garn.com/images/products/preview/p-0069%20anode%20rod%20%20segmented.jpg]
If it were me, I would NOT pop the P&T relief valve on the water heater
just to see if any gas comes out. These things can be notorious for not
closing fully afterwards, resulting in a continuous drip from the relief
valve down pipe.
--
nestork
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 7, 2013, 8:31:18 AM3/7/13
to
> or:http://preview.tinyurl.com/c54adyq
>
> --
> Bill
> In Hamptonburgh, NY
> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
> To email, remove the double zeros after @- Hide quoted text -
>
> --
> Bill
> In Hamptonburgh, NY
> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
>
> - Show quoted text -
That whole thing is based on the premise that there is
> - Show quoted text -
air trapped in the pipes somewhere. That seems unlikely
to me, since he says it's been going on for months. At
some point, if air is coming out, it would exhaust itself
and several months seems like a very long time. Also,
since it's coming out of ALL the hot water taps, it would
have to be trapped in a common part of the pipes, close
to the WH. That it's coming from either the tank or the
pipes close to the tank are further verified by the fact
that he says the air only shows up when hot water
arrives at the faucet. All that suggests to me that it is
in fact being generated inside the tank.
rdoc
Mar 7, 2013, 9:11:17 AM3/7/13
to
made of Aluminum, Zinc and Tin. It is 42" and will likely clear. I looked at
the tank and the 'anode' sticker is between several holes/plugs. A diagram I
found doesn't show those other holes so I pulled the one that looks closest
to that diagram and there is foam under it. Can/Should I just cut that foam
away or is this a sign that I'm looking at the wrong place. The previous
tank had a hex that sat slightly higher than the rest of the tank, so this
may be something I need to research.
rdoc
Mar 7, 2013, 9:11:21 AM3/7/13
to
"nestork" <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote in message
news:nestork...@diybanter.com...
agree about the relief valve. Any air should have been gone long ago and any
in there now muxjh be being generated. As I said in another post, I read a
piece a while back that suggested that was actually a very bad idea that
could result in a pop-off at conditions below usual standards.
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 7, 2013, 10:07:34 AM3/7/13
to
On Mar 7, 9:11 am, "rdoc" <b...@this.net> wrote:
> "nestork" <nestork.b7da...@diybanter.com> wrote in message
you do open the TPR, it may then leak. I agree with that.
But on the other hand, if you never open it, is it possible
that it's frozen and won't open if it has to? If it does leak,
a new one is $10. But then there is the issue of whether
you can get the old one unscrewed, etc...... I have to
admit, I'm not in the habit of fooling with mine.
> "nestork" <nestork.b7da...@diybanter.com> wrote in message
>
> news:nestork...@diybanter.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > 'chaniarts[_3_ Wrote:
> >> ;3025835']
> >> they make foldable anodes for low clearance situations
>
> > Yes, they're called "segmented" anode rods, but if you just say that you
> > want one that'll bend, fold or flex cuz of the lack of overhead
> > clearance, then everyone will know what you mean.
>
> > [image:
> >http://shop.garn.com/images/products/preview/p-0069%20anode%20rod%20%...]
> news:nestork...@diybanter.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > 'chaniarts[_3_ Wrote:
> >> ;3025835']
> >> they make foldable anodes for low clearance situations
>
> > Yes, they're called "segmented" anode rods, but if you just say that you
> > want one that'll bend, fold or flex cuz of the lack of overhead
> > clearance, then everyone will know what you mean.
>
> > [image:
>
> > If it were me, I would NOT pop the P&T relief valve on the water heater
> > just to see if any gas comes out. These things can be notorious for not
> > closing fully afterwards, resulting in a continuous drip from the relief
> > valve down pipe.
>
> The one they are suggesting is only 42" so it should be good. I think I
> agree about the relief valve. Any air should have been gone long ago and any
> in there now muxjh be being generated. As I said in another post, I read a
> piece a while back that suggested that was actually a very bad idea that
> could result in a pop-off at conditions below usual standards.- Hide quoted text -
> > If it were me, I would NOT pop the P&T relief valve on the water heater
> > just to see if any gas comes out. These things can be notorious for not
> > closing fully afterwards, resulting in a continuous drip from the relief
> > valve down pipe.
>
> The one they are suggesting is only 42" so it should be good. I think I
> agree about the relief valve. Any air should have been gone long ago and any
> in there now muxjh be being generated. As I said in another post, I read a
> piece a while back that suggested that was actually a very bad idea that
>
> - Show quoted text -
I guess there are two sides to that issue. One is that if
> - Show quoted text -
you do open the TPR, it may then leak. I agree with that.
But on the other hand, if you never open it, is it possible
that it's frozen and won't open if it has to? If it does leak,
a new one is $10. But then there is the issue of whether
you can get the old one unscrewed, etc...... I have to
admit, I'm not in the habit of fooling with mine.
Harry K
Mar 7, 2013, 12:23:14 PM3/7/13
to
On Mar 7, 5:31 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:
Yep. Can't be anywhere else and the possibility of air being 'sucked
into a joint' is zero.
Harry K
wrote:
into a joint' is zero.
Harry K
NapalmHeart
Mar 7, 2013, 12:28:34 PM3/7/13
to
news:X8qdnQAKwcyQPaXM...@giganews.com...
It can be covered by foam, but a little more research won't hurt.
Here are a couple of links that look at this from a different perspective.
http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/technical/water-heater-odors.php
http://www.mrwa.com/watersmellrotteneggs.htm
Here are a couple of links that look at this from a different perspective.
http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/technical/water-heater-odors.php
http://www.mrwa.com/watersmellrotteneggs.htm
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 7, 2013, 12:38:21 PM3/7/13
to
On Mar 7, 12:28 pm, "NapalmHeart" <kol...@freedomnet.org> wrote:
> "rdoc" <b...@this.net> wrote in message
>
> news:X8qdnQAKwcyQPaXM...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > <trad...@optonline.net> wrote in message
On my State WH it's also a hex head, think it was 1 1/8"?, but
it was obviously the only fitting there. I'd make sure the new
one will clear. Otherwise there are ones available that are
linked together that will go in for sure. I think waterheaterrescue
is one place that sells them. Also, you might want to check
around to make sure you're getting a decent price.
>
> It can be covered by foam, but a little more research won't hurt.
>
> Here are a couple of links that look at this from a different perspective.
>
> http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/technical/water-heater-odors.php
>
> http://www.mrwa.com/watersmellrotteneggs.htm- Hide quoted text -
> "rdoc" <b...@this.net> wrote in message
>
> news:X8qdnQAKwcyQPaXM...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > <trad...@optonline.net> wrote in message
it was obviously the only fitting there. I'd make sure the new
one will clear. Otherwise there are ones available that are
linked together that will go in for sure. I think waterheaterrescue
is one place that sells them. Also, you might want to check
around to make sure you're getting a decent price.
>
> It can be covered by foam, but a little more research won't hurt.
>
> Here are a couple of links that look at this from a different perspective.
>
> http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/technical/water-heater-odors.php
>
TimR
Mar 7, 2013, 3:08:29 PM3/7/13
to
I'm still skeptical about the anode being the problem.
I've heard of anodes being a problem with smell. The usual reason given is that they encourage bacteria growth which releases hydrogen sulfide. I've never seen it happen myself. My inlaw's water has that smell, but it's from a well, and in both the hot and cold water. The hot water is worse of course because it volatilizes. But while I haven't seen it, there are lots of articles that say it happens.
But how does an anode release air? It can't be the HS gas. There's only a tiny amount dissolved in water, it just happens to affect our nose very easily. If it were concentrated enough to burp at a faucet, it probably would be enough to kill you. For sure it would corrode anything nearby, probably eat through pipes.
I haven't seen anyone suggest any other gas that an anode can produce. Well, long ago there was a report of hydrogen in a water heater, but I tracked down the original report and it turned out to be something else, long story.
And if it were any other gas, I don't think the OP would be reporting it as air. Does it smell at all? Will it burn?
And if it were some other kind of bacteria reacting with the anode, and it's making enough gas to burp, I'm not sure I'd want to drink it. Must be like jello inside, with that much bacteria.
How about this for a scenario? Your well pump is injecting air into the water supply. You actually have air in both hot and cold water pipes. BUT, you never notice it in cold water for two reasons. Cold water dissolves more air, and your cold water pipe layout has some areas where it gets trapped. Your hot water tank has a dip tube for cold water entry, but hot water leaves through the top. Your water sits in the tank long enough for air to separate and form a layer on top of the water.
The thing is, an anode is a pain in the butt to get out. They're usually screwed in really tight. And even if you get a shorter one or segmented one, you still need clearance to get the old one out. I wouldn't try this except as a last resort.
I've heard of anodes being a problem with smell. The usual reason given is that they encourage bacteria growth which releases hydrogen sulfide. I've never seen it happen myself. My inlaw's water has that smell, but it's from a well, and in both the hot and cold water. The hot water is worse of course because it volatilizes. But while I haven't seen it, there are lots of articles that say it happens.
But how does an anode release air? It can't be the HS gas. There's only a tiny amount dissolved in water, it just happens to affect our nose very easily. If it were concentrated enough to burp at a faucet, it probably would be enough to kill you. For sure it would corrode anything nearby, probably eat through pipes.
I haven't seen anyone suggest any other gas that an anode can produce. Well, long ago there was a report of hydrogen in a water heater, but I tracked down the original report and it turned out to be something else, long story.
And if it were any other gas, I don't think the OP would be reporting it as air. Does it smell at all? Will it burn?
And if it were some other kind of bacteria reacting with the anode, and it's making enough gas to burp, I'm not sure I'd want to drink it. Must be like jello inside, with that much bacteria.
How about this for a scenario? Your well pump is injecting air into the water supply. You actually have air in both hot and cold water pipes. BUT, you never notice it in cold water for two reasons. Cold water dissolves more air, and your cold water pipe layout has some areas where it gets trapped. Your hot water tank has a dip tube for cold water entry, but hot water leaves through the top. Your water sits in the tank long enough for air to separate and form a layer on top of the water.
The thing is, an anode is a pain in the butt to get out. They're usually screwed in really tight. And even if you get a shorter one or segmented one, you still need clearance to get the old one out. I wouldn't try this except as a last resort.
TimR
Mar 7, 2013, 3:33:46 PM3/7/13
to
Had another thought.
Well systems often have an expansion tank. There's usually a pressurized side, maybe air is getting in from there?
Well systems often have an expansion tank. There's usually a pressurized side, maybe air is getting in from there?
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 7, 2013, 3:44:31 PM3/7/13
to
On Mar 7, 3:08 pm, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> I'm still skeptical about the anode being the problem.
It was just one possibility that was suggested. I don't think
> I'm still skeptical about the anode being the problem.
it's necessarily a likely culprit either. Problem
is there just doesn't seem to be any good explanation
and the anode, if it can be removed, is pretty easy to rule
out.
>
> I've heard of anodes being a problem with smell. The usual reason given is that they encourage bacteria growth which releases hydrogen sulfide. I've never seen it happen myself. My inlaw's water has that smell, but it's from a well, and in both the hot and cold water. The hot water is worse of course because it volatilizes. But while I haven't seen it, there are lots of articles that say it happens.
>
> But how does an anode release air? It can't be the HS gas. There's only a tiny amount dissolved in water, it just happens to affect our nose very easily. If it were concentrated enough to burp at a faucet, it probably would be enough to kill you. For sure it would corrode anything nearby, probably eat through pipes.
chemistry could account for a reaction at the anode.
Here is another thought. What happens if
you have a bad electric heating element that has the
electric element in contact with the water? That would
produce oxygen and hydrogen. Maybe that is more
likely than some kind of reaction at the anode. Might be
worth seeing if air shows up with the tank turned off.
>
> I haven't seen anyone suggest any other gas that an anode can produce. Well, long ago there was a report of hydrogen in a water heater, but I tracked down the original report and it turned out to be something else, long story.
>
> And if it were any other gas, I don't think the OP would be reporting it as air. Does it smell at all? Will it burn?
unusual, would be reported as air, because that's what
we tend to think of as "trapped" in a water system.
>
> And if it were some other kind of bacteria reacting with the anode, and it's making enough gas to burp, I'm not sure I'd want to drink it. Must be like jello inside, with that much bacteria.
>
> How about this for a scenario? Your well pump is injecting air into the water supply. You actually have air in both hot and cold water pipes. BUT, you never notice it in cold water for two reasons. Cold water dissolves more air, and your cold water pipe layout has some areas where it gets trapped. Your hot water tank has a dip tube for cold water entry, but hot water leaves through the top. Your water sits in the tank long enough for air to separate and form a layer on top of the water.
>
> The thing is, an anode is a pain in the butt to get out. They're usually screwed in really tight. And even if you get a shorter one or segmented one, you still need clearance to get the old one out. I wouldn't try this except as a last resort.
got mine unscrewed on a 5 year old tank without anything
special. If it's 15 years old, that could be a whole different
thing.
TomR
Mar 7, 2013, 4:02:18 PM3/7/13
to
TimR wrote:
> I'm still skeptical about the anode being the problem.
>
> I've heard of anodes being a problem with smell. The usual reason
> given is that they encourage bacteria growth which releases hydrogen
> sulfide. . . . .,
> I'm still skeptical about the anode being the problem.
>
> I've heard of anodes being a problem with smell. The usual reason
> given is that they encourage bacteria growth which releases hydrogen
>
> But how does an anode release air? It can't be the HS gas. There's
> only a tiny amount dissolved in water, it just happens to affect our
> nose very easily. If it were concentrated enough to burp at a
> faucet, it probably would be enough to kill you. For sure it would
> corrode anything nearby, probably eat through pipes. . . . . ,
> But how does an anode release air? It can't be the HS gas. There's
> only a tiny amount dissolved in water, it just happens to affect our
> nose very easily. If it were concentrated enough to burp at a
> faucet, it probably would be enough to kill you. For sure it would
>
> And if it were any other gas, I don't think the OP would be reporting
> it as air. Does it smell at all? Will it burn? . . . . ,
> And if it were any other gas, I don't think the OP would be reporting
>
> How about this for a scenario? Your well pump is injecting air into
> the water supply. You actually have air in both hot and cold water
> pipes. BUT, you never notice it in cold water for two reasons. Cold
> water dissolves more air, and your cold water pipe layout has some
> areas where it gets trapped. Your hot water tank has a dip tube for
> cold water entry, but hot water leaves through the top. Your water
> sits in the tank long enough for air to separate and form a layer on
> top of the water.
I think that is a very interesting theory, although I doubt the part about
> How about this for a scenario? Your well pump is injecting air into
> the water supply. You actually have air in both hot and cold water
> pipes. BUT, you never notice it in cold water for two reasons. Cold
> water dissolves more air, and your cold water pipe layout has some
> areas where it gets trapped. Your hot water tank has a dip tube for
> cold water entry, but hot water leaves through the top. Your water
> sits in the tank long enough for air to separate and form a layer on
> top of the water.
"your cold water pipe layout has some areas where it gets trapped". But,
the idea that the hot water tank is a place where the pumped-in air can get
released and trapped seems plausible to me. And, if cold water holds more
trapped gases than hot water, when the gas-infused cold water gets heated in
the hot water tank maybe that releases the dissolved/trapped air.
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 7, 2013, 4:07:51 PM3/7/13
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
One big hole in that theory is why this phenomena only
> - Show quoted text -
started right when the water heater was replaced and
not with the old one which would have identical
characteristics with regard to trapping air. I'm
thinking my electrolysis by a bad heating element sounds
better. I've never heard of that happening, but it sounds
theoretically possible, no?
TomR
Mar 7, 2013, 4:23:17 PM3/7/13
to
inadvertent electrolysis to my post since it is an electric hot water
heater. I had even started looking up electrolysis of water (which I
generally think of as involving DC rather than AC current
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water ), and wondered if there
was some type of spurious leak of electricity causing the water to break
down into hydrogen and oxygen. And, I tried searching for electrolysis with
AC current instead of DC. I am not so sure that AC will really produce
hydrogen and oxygen from water, but I don't know for sure.
But, if the "air" coming out of the hot water spigots really is a mixture of
hydrogen and oxygen, I guess holding a flame near the spigot could produce
some interesting results -- hopefully just a popping sound and not a real
explosion. And, I guess there would be no smell to the gas as there would
be if it was hydrogen sulfide gas.
TimR
Mar 7, 2013, 4:30:09 PM3/7/13
to
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 4:07:51 PM UTC-5, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> One big hole in that theory is why this phenomena only
>
> started right when the water heater was replaced and
>
> not with the old one which would have identical
>
> characteristics with regard to trapping air. I'm
>
> thinking my electrolysis by a bad heating element sounds
>
> better. I've never heard of that happening, but it sounds
>
> theoretically possible, no?
I've never heard of it happening either, but it seems like a good idea to check it.
> One big hole in that theory is why this phenomena only
>
> started right when the water heater was replaced and
>
> not with the old one which would have identical
>
> characteristics with regard to trapping air. I'm
>
> thinking my electrolysis by a bad heating element sounds
>
> better. I've never heard of that happening, but it sounds
>
> theoretically possible, no?
If it's electrolysis, it is splitting water into a stochiometric mixture of oxygen and hydrogen.
Just put a small plastic bag over the faucet, turn it on, and collect some of the gas. Test it with a match or lighter. Hydrogen mixed with the ideal ratio of oxygen should definitely burn.
TimR
Mar 7, 2013, 4:32:21 PM3/7/13
to
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 4:23:17 PM UTC-5, TomR wrote:
>
>
> Good point. I was actually thinking of adding the far out possibility of
>
> inadvertent electrolysis to my post since it is an electric hot water
>
> heater. I had even started looking up electrolysis of water (which I
>
> generally think of as involving DC rather than AC current
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water ),
If you use DC, you get hydrogen at one electrode and oxygen at the other.
>
>
> Good point. I was actually thinking of adding the far out possibility of
>
> inadvertent electrolysis to my post since it is an electric hot water
>
> heater. I had even started looking up electrolysis of water (which I
>
> generally think of as involving DC rather than AC current
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water ),
If you use AC, you get a mix of gas.
BUT, your water has to be conductive. You need to add enough salt, acid, lemon juice, etc. to let the current flow. Pure water won't conduct.
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 7, 2013, 4:36:42 PM3/7/13
to
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 7, 2013, 4:37:54 PM3/7/13
to
folks that have nat gas in their water from fracking.....
TimR
Mar 7, 2013, 9:10:01 PM3/7/13
to
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 4:37:54 PM UTC-5, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> Maybe she'll light up like one of those faucets from the
>
> folks that have nat gas in their water from fracking.....
Could be fracking, too.
>
> Maybe she'll light up like one of those faucets from the
>
> folks that have nat gas in their water from fracking.....
Harry K
Mar 7, 2013, 11:07:00 PM3/7/13
to
On Mar 7, 12:33 pm, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> Had another thought.
>
> Well systems often have an expansion tank. There's usually a pressurized side, maybe air is getting in from there?
All well systems (except direct pumping) have a "tank" that uses a
> Had another thought.
>
> Well systems often have an expansion tank. There's usually a pressurized side, maybe air is getting in from there?
bubble to that uses air to keep the system pressurised. Even if the
bladder is leaking over the period he reports. All the air would have
been gone by now and he would be having major problems with short
cycling. If you are referring to the real "expansion tank", small and
separate frm the main tank, same thing would apply - air would be gone
by now.
Harry K
Harry K
Mar 7, 2013, 11:15:02 PM3/7/13
to
On Mar 7, 12:08 pm, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> I'm still skeptical about the anode being the problem.
>
> I've heard of anodes being a problem with smell. The usual reason given is that they encourage bacteria growth which releases hydrogen sulfide. I've never seen it happen myself. My inlaw's water has that smell, but it's from a well, and in both the hot and cold water. The hot water is worse of course because it volatilizes. But while I haven't seen it, there are lots of articles that say it happens.
>
> But how does an anode release air? It can't be the HS gas. There's only a tiny amount dissolved in water, it just happens to affect our nose very easily. If it were concentrated enough to burp at a faucet, it probably would be enough to kill you. For sure it would corrode anything nearby, probably eat through pipes.
>
> I haven't seen anyone suggest any other gas that an anode can produce. Well, long ago there was a report of hydrogen in a water heater, but I tracked down the original report and it turned out to be something else, long story.
>
> And if it were any other gas, I don't think the OP would be reporting it as air. Does it smell at all? Will it burn?
>
> And if it were some other kind of bacteria reacting with the anode, and it's making enough gas to burp, I'm not sure I'd want to drink it. Must be like jello inside, with that much bacteria.
>
> How about this for a scenario? Your well pump is injecting air into the water supply. You actually have air in both hot and cold water pipes. BUT, you never notice it in cold water for two reasons. Cold water dissolves more air, and your cold water pipe layout has some areas where it gets trapped. Your hot water tank has a dip tube for cold water entry, but hot water leaves through the top. Your water sits in the tank long enough for air to separate and form a layer on top of the water.
If he has a submersible, there is no air available to inject. HOWEVER
> I'm still skeptical about the anode being the problem.
>
> I've heard of anodes being a problem with smell. The usual reason given is that they encourage bacteria growth which releases hydrogen sulfide. I've never seen it happen myself. My inlaw's water has that smell, but it's from a well, and in both the hot and cold water. The hot water is worse of course because it volatilizes. But while I haven't seen it, there are lots of articles that say it happens.
>
> But how does an anode release air? It can't be the HS gas. There's only a tiny amount dissolved in water, it just happens to affect our nose very easily. If it were concentrated enough to burp at a faucet, it probably would be enough to kill you. For sure it would corrode anything nearby, probably eat through pipes.
>
> I haven't seen anyone suggest any other gas that an anode can produce. Well, long ago there was a report of hydrogen in a water heater, but I tracked down the original report and it turned out to be something else, long story.
>
> And if it were any other gas, I don't think the OP would be reporting it as air. Does it smell at all? Will it burn?
>
> And if it were some other kind of bacteria reacting with the anode, and it's making enough gas to burp, I'm not sure I'd want to drink it. Must be like jello inside, with that much bacteria.
>
> How about this for a scenario? Your well pump is injecting air into the water supply. You actually have air in both hot and cold water pipes. BUT, you never notice it in cold water for two reasons. Cold water dissolves more air, and your cold water pipe layout has some areas where it gets trapped. Your hot water tank has a dip tube for cold water entry, but hot water leaves through the top. Your water sits in the tank long enough for air to separate and form a layer on top of the water.
you do hve a good point. Some wills produce water that has air
dissolved in it. It could be coming out of solution and collecteding
as you suggested.
I occasionaly get a short 'burp' from my system. Never paid attention
if it is only from the hot side.
<snip>
Harry K
TimR
Mar 8, 2013, 8:15:02 AM3/8/13
to
I'm not sold on any analysis yet. It's just been my experience that until you find the real "root cause," you're spinning wheels spending money.
It might be useful to know the water analysis. I assume you wouldn't drink well water without an occasional test, so you should know pH, TDS, hardness, conductivity, etc.
Even though these symptoms appeared when the water heater was changed, it's not a given that this was the cause. Maybe the characteristics of the well had changed, and it would have happened with either heater. That's the kind of coincidence that drives you nuts troubleshooting.
It might be useful to know the water analysis. I assume you wouldn't drink well water without an occasional test, so you should know pH, TDS, hardness, conductivity, etc.
Even though these symptoms appeared when the water heater was changed, it's not a given that this was the cause. Maybe the characteristics of the well had changed, and it would have happened with either heater. That's the kind of coincidence that drives you nuts troubleshooting.
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 8, 2013, 8:31:33 AM3/8/13
to
"any time you run a faucet it is fine until the hot water
makes it to the tap and then it gurgles and spits every few minutes. "
some kind is getting generated in the WH, by whatever reaction
you would think it
would show up as the first hot water arrives. But you'd also
think that it would not last too long. I mean how much gas
could there be? You would think in a few minutes it would be
over. And then if you drew hot water again in like 5 or 10 mins
you would have no air, or at least no noticeable air. And if you let
it
recover for say 8 hours, then you'd have more air again.
Another interesting experiment would be to turn off the
WH, use up all the hot water and see how it behaves
with just cold water in it. Is it possible this "gurgling/spitting"
isn't even due to air/gas? Another key experiment would
be to get the water going into a container, preferabley via
a hose, maybe on the washing machine tap, to verify that
bubbles are in fact responsible. I mean you would
certainly think it's air/gas related, but who knows. Is it
possible something is partially blocking the flow, causing
the fits and spurts?
=
Mar 8, 2013, 11:37:30 AM3/8/13
to
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:c253b562-f12d-482a...@y4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
the water and this situation becomes a safety issue. The current flow will
eat away the element materials at the point of contact and the problem will
get worse fast. At some point, electricity will be felt in the water
depending upon the quality of the ground via pipes, water and wiring. Don't
do a hand test in the water to find out though -- use a neon tester or a
meter and watch what you touch. As the current increases, a breaker should
trip.
From a safety standpoint though, check this out right away.
Tomsic
TimR
Mar 8, 2013, 5:03:24 PM3/8/13
to
There is a far simpler possible answer.
When the water heater was replaced, all the hot water pipes drained and filled with air.
Most of it came out, but a little continues to be trapped and causes the spit and gurgle. It doesn't take much air to do so, and it can be a pain to get the last little bit out.
Occam's Razor, anyone?
Now, for electrolysis. I just doubt it can produce enough gas. I can see two obvious ways to test for it.
Capture some of the gas. Fill your laundry tub halfway with water, put a clear plastic bag inside it, can be a dry cleaner bag or similar. It doesn't have to hold pressure. Open the bag under water so it fills. Run a hose from the hot water faucet into the bag. The air/gas/whatever will collect. Poke a small hole in the top of the bag, squeeze a little gas out and use a lighter to check.
If it does not pop, it is NOT electrolysis. If it does pop, electrolysis is not confirmed, it could still be methane from the well.
Second way: If it is electrolysis, somewhere you have a circuit completed through the water. The element is 240 V, just two hots, no neutral. The case exterior is grounded. So electrolysis would require jolts to leak from the element through the tank coating to the metal body and back to the panel through the ground. The voltage would be 120 of course, not 240. Put a clamp on ammeter on the bare ground wire. You shouldn't measure any current. Disconnect the ground wire, and if it is electrolysis it should stop. You might be able to measure voltage between ground wire connection and ground wire with them disconnected. (I always get in trouble here with voltmeter measurements.)
That would mean you have a bad element AND a bad tank coating on a new tank, and it just seems unlikely.
When the water heater was replaced, all the hot water pipes drained and filled with air.
Most of it came out, but a little continues to be trapped and causes the spit and gurgle. It doesn't take much air to do so, and it can be a pain to get the last little bit out.
Occam's Razor, anyone?
Now, for electrolysis. I just doubt it can produce enough gas. I can see two obvious ways to test for it.
Capture some of the gas. Fill your laundry tub halfway with water, put a clear plastic bag inside it, can be a dry cleaner bag or similar. It doesn't have to hold pressure. Open the bag under water so it fills. Run a hose from the hot water faucet into the bag. The air/gas/whatever will collect. Poke a small hole in the top of the bag, squeeze a little gas out and use a lighter to check.
If it does not pop, it is NOT electrolysis. If it does pop, electrolysis is not confirmed, it could still be methane from the well.
Second way: If it is electrolysis, somewhere you have a circuit completed through the water. The element is 240 V, just two hots, no neutral. The case exterior is grounded. So electrolysis would require jolts to leak from the element through the tank coating to the metal body and back to the panel through the ground. The voltage would be 120 of course, not 240. Put a clamp on ammeter on the bare ground wire. You shouldn't measure any current. Disconnect the ground wire, and if it is electrolysis it should stop. You might be able to measure voltage between ground wire connection and ground wire with them disconnected. (I always get in trouble here with voltmeter measurements.)
That would mean you have a bad element AND a bad tank coating on a new tank, and it just seems unlikely.
TimR
Mar 8, 2013, 5:24:17 PM3/8/13
to
I may have been too skeptical about electrolysis.
I googled and found a case where someone was getting air in the lines, and solved it by raising the water heater off the concrete floor with insulation.
His theory was current flowing from the element to the floor through the water. A concrete floor is normally considered effectively at ground potential.
I don't know what else would account for that fix working.
It does seem if you had that much current flowing, you'd quickly eat a hole in your tank. That's what corrosion is.
I googled and found a case where someone was getting air in the lines, and solved it by raising the water heater off the concrete floor with insulation.
His theory was current flowing from the element to the floor through the water. A concrete floor is normally considered effectively at ground potential.
I don't know what else would account for that fix working.
It does seem if you had that much current flowing, you'd quickly eat a hole in your tank. That's what corrosion is.
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 9, 2013, 8:44:44 AM3/9/13
to
On Mar 8, 5:03 pm, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> There is a far simpler possible answer.
>
> When the water heater was replaced, all the hot water pipes drained and filled with air.
>
> Most of it came out, but a little continues to be trapped and causes the spit and gurgle. It doesn't take much air to do so, and it can be a pain to get the last little bit out.
I'd buy that for a few days to a week. But he said it's been
> There is a far simpler possible answer.
>
> When the water heater was replaced, all the hot water pipes drained and filled with air.
>
> Most of it came out, but a little continues to be trapped and causes the spit and gurgle. It doesn't take much air to do so, and it can be a pain to get the last little bit out.
going on for a long time, got the impression it's been months,
though I don't recall if he's actually given a number. And in
every case I've been involved with it was over in a matter
of minutes once that line was flowing. It's not unusual to
open a faucet a week later, that hasn't been used and have
air come out of it, but that isn't what he's saying. He says
he has spurting, gurgling going on continously, on all hot
faucets. And also that the spurting starts when the hot
water arrives at the faucets. That strongly suggests that it's
not coming from some random place, but actually from the
tank.
>
> Occam's Razor, anyone?
>
> Now, for electrolysis. I just doubt it can produce enough gas.
fill a test tube up with gas in a matter of minutes.
I can see two obvious ways to test for it.
>
> Capture some of the gas. Fill your laundry tub halfway with water, put a clear plastic bag inside it, can be a dry cleaner bag or similar. It doesn't have to hold pressure. Open the bag under water so it fills. Run a hose from the hot water faucet into the bag. The air/gas/whatever will collect. Poke a small hole in the top of the bag, squeeze a little gas out and use a lighter to check.
>
> If it does not pop, it is NOT electrolysis. If it does pop, electrolysis is not confirmed, it could still be methane from the well.
>
> Second way: If it is electrolysis, somewhere you have a circuit completed through the water. The element is 240 V, just two hots, no neutral. The case exterior is grounded. So electrolysis would require jolts to leak from the element through the tank coating to the metal body and back to the panel through the ground. The voltage would be 120 of course, not 240. Put a clamp on ammeter on the bare ground wire. You shouldn't measure any current. Disconnect the ground wire, and if it is electrolysis it should stop. You might be able to measure voltage between ground wire connection and ground wire with them disconnected. (I always get in trouble here with voltmeter measurements.)
>
> That would mean you have a bad element AND a bad tank coating on a new tank, and it just seems unlikely.
tank wall.
The outside of the element is grounded. If it has a hole in it, the
path could be
from the hot electrode inside to the metal outside of the heating
element. A
very short path. Also, it would not require a coated tank. The
elements screw
in and the metal plug part of the element is uncoated.
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 9, 2013, 8:47:49 AM3/9/13
to
On Mar 8, 5:24 pm, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> I may have been too skeptical about electrolysis.
>
> I googled and found a case where someone was getting air in the lines, and solved it by raising the water heater off the concrete floor with insulation.
>
> His theory was current flowing from the element to the floor through the water. A concrete floor is normally considered effectively at ground potential.
>
> I don't know what else would account for that fix working.
I don't know how that would account for it working, unless
> I may have been too skeptical about electrolysis.
>
> I googled and found a case where someone was getting air in the lines, and solved it by raising the water heater off the concrete floor with insulation.
>
> His theory was current flowing from the element to the floor through the water. A concrete floor is normally considered effectively at ground potential.
>
> I don't know what else would account for that fix working.
something else is very wrong. The WH should be grounded
via the AC wiring and whether it's sitting on the concrete
floor should have no effect.
TimR
Mar 9, 2013, 1:43:08 PM3/9/13
to
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 8:47:49 AM UTC-5, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> I don't know how that would account for it working, unless
>
> something else is very wrong. The WH should be grounded
>
> via the AC wiring and whether it's sitting on the concrete
>
> floor should have no effect.
>
Water heaters run on 240V. That's two hots, no neutral, no ground. They'll work fine if the tank is not grounded although of course it is supposed to be. There's a risk of somebody getting a shock if somehow one of the hots does short to the case. The case would then be hot with respect to the floor, or with respect to you if you were standing on the floor.
>
> I don't know how that would account for it working, unless
>
> something else is very wrong. The WH should be grounded
>
> via the AC wiring and whether it's sitting on the concrete
>
> floor should have no effect.
>
=
Mar 10, 2013, 6:37:31 PM3/10/13
to
"TimR" <timot...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:df7a73c6-8dfc-4686...@googlegroups.com...
heater in the house shorted to the tank which was not grounded for some
reason. The voltage appeared on the water pipes which were fed from a well
and pump in the barn. On their way to the well, the pipes were connected
to metal stanchions of some 20 dairy cows who used metal water cups fed by
the pipe.
Our first clue that something was wrong was when the cows got jumpy and
stopped giving milk. We then started getting slight shocks when touching
faucets in the house or the barn. I got out the neon tester and found that
the tester would light up with one lead on any water pipe and the other lead
on a wire made out of a metal coat hanger that I stuck into the ground. The
climax came when I brushed a bare ground wire from the house electrical
panel against a water pipe by mistake. The sparks flew and the water heater
breaker tripped. It was a miracle that we didn't electrocute either a
person or a cow. And, yes, we did install solid grounds on the pipes and
bonded them to the electrical panel ground too.
Later, we found a rupture in the water heater heating element probably due
to a lightning strike.
Tomsic
TimR
Mar 10, 2013, 10:13:49 PM3/10/13
to
On Sunday, March 10, 2013 6:37:31 PM UTC-4, = wrote:
> Later, we found a rupture in the water heater heating element probably due
>
> to a lightning strike.
>
>
>
> Tomsic
It seems likely to me that if you have current flowing from the element to any part of the tank, you will quickly erode one of the contacts and destroy either tank or element. If it is to the tank itself, you're going to corrode a hole in it.
> Later, we found a rupture in the water heater heating element probably due
>
> to a lightning strike.
>
>
>
> Tomsic
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 11, 2013, 11:06:12 AM3/11/13
to
On Mar 10, 6:37 pm, "=" <not.m...@not.net> wrote:
> "TimR" <timothy...@aol.com> wrote in message
conductor. An electric water heater must be grounded.
> They'll
> work fine if the tank is not grounded although of course it is supposed to
> be.
Above you said no ground?
> There's a risk of somebody getting a shock if somehow one of the hots
> does short to the case. The case would then be hot with respect to the
> floor, or with respect to you if you were standing on the floor.
Uh huh, which is why they must be grounded unless they are
installed incorrectly.
>
> Ah, yes. When I lived on a farm some years ago, the electric hot water
> heater in the house shorted to the tank which was not grounded for some
> reason. The voltage appeared on the water pipes which were fed from a well
> and pump in the barn. On their way to the well, the pipes were connected
> to metal stanchions of some 20 dairy cows who used metal water cups fed by
> the pipe.
>
> Our first clue that something was wrong was when the cows got jumpy and
> stopped giving milk. We then started getting slight shocks when touching
> faucets in the house or the barn. I got out the neon tester and found that
> the tester would light up with one lead on any water pipe and the other lead
> on a wire made out of a metal coat hanger that I stuck into the ground. The
> climax came when I brushed a bare ground wire from the house electrical
> panel against a water pipe by mistake. The sparks flew and the water heater
> breaker tripped. It was a miracle that we didn't electrocute either a
> person or a cow. And, yes, we did install solid grounds on the pipes and
> bonded them to the electrical panel ground too.
>
> Later, we found a rupture in the water heater heating element probably due
> to a lightning strike.
>
> Tomsic
Which is what may be going on in the water heater under discussion.
With the resistance element in contact with the water, he would likely
be getting electrolysis of the water into hydrogen and oxygen.
> "TimR" <timothy...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:df7a73c6-8dfc-4686...@googlegroups.com...
>
> On Saturday, March 9, 2013 8:47:49 AM UTC-5, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> > I don't know how that would account for it working, unless
>
> > something else is very wrong. The WH should be grounded
>
> > via the AC wiring and whether it's sitting on the concrete
>
> > floor should have no effect.
>
> Water heaters run on 240V. That's two hots, no neutral, no ground.
Running on 240V does not negate the need for a grounding
> news:df7a73c6-8dfc-4686...@googlegroups.com...
>
> On Saturday, March 9, 2013 8:47:49 AM UTC-5, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> > I don't know how that would account for it working, unless
>
> > something else is very wrong. The WH should be grounded
>
> > via the AC wiring and whether it's sitting on the concrete
>
> > floor should have no effect.
>
> Water heaters run on 240V. That's two hots, no neutral, no ground.
conductor. An electric water heater must be grounded.
> They'll
> work fine if the tank is not grounded although of course it is supposed to
> be.
> There's a risk of somebody getting a shock if somehow one of the hots
> does short to the case. The case would then be hot with respect to the
> floor, or with respect to you if you were standing on the floor.
installed incorrectly.
>
> Ah, yes. When I lived on a farm some years ago, the electric hot water
> heater in the house shorted to the tank which was not grounded for some
> reason. The voltage appeared on the water pipes which were fed from a well
> and pump in the barn. On their way to the well, the pipes were connected
> to metal stanchions of some 20 dairy cows who used metal water cups fed by
> the pipe.
>
> Our first clue that something was wrong was when the cows got jumpy and
> stopped giving milk. We then started getting slight shocks when touching
> faucets in the house or the barn. I got out the neon tester and found that
> the tester would light up with one lead on any water pipe and the other lead
> on a wire made out of a metal coat hanger that I stuck into the ground. The
> climax came when I brushed a bare ground wire from the house electrical
> panel against a water pipe by mistake. The sparks flew and the water heater
> breaker tripped. It was a miracle that we didn't electrocute either a
> person or a cow. And, yes, we did install solid grounds on the pipes and
> bonded them to the electrical panel ground too.
>
> Later, we found a rupture in the water heater heating element probably due
> to a lightning strike.
>
> Tomsic
With the resistance element in contact with the water, he would likely
be getting electrolysis of the water into hydrogen and oxygen.
tra...@optonline.net
Mar 11, 2013, 11:11:34 AM3/11/13
to
when you have a chest cold? Some of them are just two electrodes
seperated by about 1/2" that go into the water in the plastic
container.
They rely on the circuit being completed by the water, current flowing
which then heats the water. The electrodes don't erode, at least
not enough to keep them working for a very long time. And you
can't get electrocuted because the electrodes are covered by
a plastic shield, you can't touch the water in the container when
the electrode top part goes into it, etc. I think the instructions
say
something about adding a bit of salt if the water is unusually pure
and it doesn't start heating on it's own.
TimR
Mar 11, 2013, 11:20:17 AM3/11/13
to
On Monday, March 11, 2013 11:11:34 AM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> Have you seen the vaporizers that you use to humidify a room
>
> when you have a chest cold? Some of them are just two electrodes
>
> seperated by about 1/2" that go into the water in the plastic
>
> container.
>
> They rely on the circuit being completed by the water, current flowing
>
> which then heats the water. The electrodes don't erode, at least
>
> not enough to keep them working for a very long time.
I'd forgotten about those.
> Have you seen the vaporizers that you use to humidify a room
>
> when you have a chest cold? Some of them are just two electrodes
>
> seperated by about 1/2" that go into the water in the plastic
>
> container.
>
> They rely on the circuit being completed by the water, current flowing
>
> which then heats the water. The electrodes don't erode, at least
>
> not enough to keep them working for a very long time.
You have a point. I guess I was thinking DC, which WOULD quickly erode a hole.
They don't produce any electrolysis though, do they? At least not that I've heard. It's been a long time since I've seen one.
As far as grounding a hot water heater, what I said was correct. You are required to do so as a safety feature. BUT, they will heat water fine without grounding; they only need two hots to function.
TimR
Mar 11, 2013, 12:25:28 PM3/11/13
to
The modern ones use carbon electrodes. I found an owner's manual for an older metal electrode one. According to it, the water needs to have some minerals to work, and if not then add salt. But if there are too many minerals, or you add too much salt, too much current flows and the electrodes quickly corrode.
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