What type of joint compound to use ?
raym...@nospam.raleigh.ibm.com
1. Lightweight spackeling compound
2. Regular spackeling compound
3. Joint compound (two different varieties, green lid and blue lid)
Which type is used if:
1. You are filling a nail hole.
2. Filling in depressions on ceiling the size of a silver dollar.
3. Skim coating a wall.
Lyle Pakula
easier it is to apply and sand off. Joint compound is a little
stickier, so it's used for the taping coat. The regular is heavier, so
it's a little more durable (for the second coat). The lightweight is
easier to sand off, and easier to put on (the finish coat). Personally,
buy the lightweight and use it as an all purpose compound. For the
tasks you listed, use the lightweight for all of them.
raym...@NOSPAM.raleigh.ibm.com wrote:
--
Lyle Pakula
HollyLewis
>
>1. Lightweight spackeling compound
>2. Regular spackeling compound
>3. Joint compound (two different varieties, green lid and blue lid)
>
>Which type is used if:
>
>1. You are filling a nail hole.
>2. Filling in depressions on ceiling the size of a silver dollar.
>3. Skim coating a wall.
For filling holes or depressions deeper than 1/4" or so, use spackle. It's
more elastic than joint compound and thus can be used thicker without cracking
as it dries.
For wide, shallow depressions and for skim coating, use joint compound. It's
typically cheaper, tends to be more readily available in large quantities, and
works better for thinner applications.
As for light vs. regular spackling, I have no idea. I've always just bought
"all-purpose spackle" and never noticed there was more than one kind!
Green lid vs. blue lid joint compound also baffles me (the lid on the last
bucket I bough is red) but it's probably a thinner formula with more water,
used mostly for spray-on or roll-on texturing methods, vs. a thicker formula
that's best for joints and for heavier knife-applied texturing.
Holly
Claude Sharpe
raym...@NOSPAM.raleigh.ibm.com wrote:
>
> I see basically 3 types of mud to buy.
>
> 1. Lightweight spackeling compound
> 2. Regular spackeling compound
> 3. Joint compound (two different varieties, green lid and blue lid)
>
> Which type is used if:
>
> 1. You are filling a nail hole.
Joint compound -- a little bit of it....
> 2. Filling in depressions on ceiling the size of a silver dollar.
Joint compound ---- a little bit more...
> 3. Skim coating a wall.
Joint compound ---- a whole lot....
It ain't rocket science. The other stuff is joint compound
in a smaller cup.......THERE'S A CUSTOMER BORN EVERY MINUTE
----- P T Barnum
Andy in Dallas
raym...@nospam.raleigh.ibm.com
Sorry Andy but you are dead wrong. Lightweight spackle is just that
"lightweight" weighs about as much as a bag of marshmallows, the same
size bucket of regular spackle weighs as much as a gallon paint can.
A contractor we used once had both kinds on hand. So obviously there
is an application for one vs. the other.
Now as far as the difference between spackle and joint compound. I
really don't know except that they are sold in different sections of
the store, the "heavy weight" spackle has more of a sheen to it vs
joint compound. So again, I doubt your theory.
As far as the two different kinds of pre-made joint compound, I recall
reading about it but I really don't remember. I believe it said one
was slightly harder to work with but would yeild better results.
No it's not rocket science but it's not as straight forward as you
think..... THERE'S A KNOW IT ALL BORN EVERY SECOND.
.... Ray Jennings
Pat Strong
Ray, there is a difference between light weight spackle and light weight
joint compound. Spackles shrink less, I am not sure but I think that they
have polymer additives. The really light weight spackle, ( I call it the
"fluffy stuff") that is like a bag of marshmallows, is only good for tiny
spans and extremely fine skim. It lacks the cohesion of the heavier stuff
but you can paint right over a freshly spackled spot.
You use light weight joint compound for higher builds, to span bigger
areas. The drawback is that because they are distributed with alot of
water, they shrink more when they dry. They crack if they are built up too
thick.
As for the heavy weight, I haven't a clue. I only use the light( and I
don't tape and float much), perhaps it is more structurally strong. I know
it's heavier.
People get confused about the difference between spackle and drywall mud
because often mud is used to do the same thing spackle does. The
difference is that you can use drywall mud for spackle if you don't mind
waiting for it to completely dry, but you would be foolish ( because of
expense, tensile strength, and dry time) to use spackle to tape and float.
Is that clear as taping mud?
Pat
Vasos Panagiotopoulos +1-917-287-8087 Bioengineer-Financier
But I was surprised to find some of them use lime instead of gypsum.
That's funny because in Greece my ancestors used to use lime paste
over brick for all their buildings (no hallow walls because of quakes
and heat). What I found annoying is some spackle uses evaporating
agents (darn, I forgot what they call it - it smells like the stuff fetal
pigs were stored in in high school bio lab) - while it's nice if you
want to paint quickly after that, it makes smoothing with damp brush
instead of sandpaper dang near impossible.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bioengineer-Financier, NYC
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian http://WWW.Dorsai.Org/~vjp2
vjp2@{MCIMail.Com|CompuServe.Com|Dorsai.Org}
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[DQ2K: Make the Murky Clown Frown!]
Paul Broussard
>
> I see basically 3 types of mud to buy.
>
> 1. Lightweight spackeling compound
> 2. Regular spackeling compound
> 3. Joint compound (two different varieties, green lid and blue lid)
>
> Which type is used if:
>
> 1. You are filling a nail hole.
Use spackle for small stuff, joint compound for larger areas, It flows
far better than spackle, but shrinks more and dries slower. I usually
use joint compound for everything, if I can fix the patches ahead of
time.
Joint compound comes in regular and lightweight. I prefer the regular,
although finishers like the lightweight because it shrinks less, sands
easier and dries quicker. But it's also softer by a good bit.
--
Broussard Paint Contractors, friend of Bill's
"careful, we might learn from this"- Calvin
TinMan1332
>although finishers like the lightweight because it shrinks less, sands
>easier and dries quicker. But it's also softer by a good bit.
I've got these tough, rough, blue collar construction worker hands... I have
noticed I can sand the lightweight compound with the palm of my hand. That
stuff is a little too soft for my taste.
Larry Caldwell
> I see basically 3 types of mud to buy.
>
> 1. Lightweight spackeling compound
> 2. Regular spackeling compound
> 3. Joint compound (two different varieties, green lid and blue lid)
There are more kinds than that. There are also various hot muds that set
quickly. You can buy 20 minute, 30 minute, up to about 60 minute hot
mud. Sometimes it is also lightweight.
Joint compound usually comes in two different types: all-purpose and
topping compound. All-purpose sets up harder and is harder to finish,
but holds tape joints better. Topping compound is smoother and softer to
sand. You can buy bags of dry all-purpose mud that will keep forever if
it is dry. Then you can mix up just a little bit for small jobs.
There is also a spray texture mud (White Line) for orange peel finish,
and various other spray textures designed to be rolled on or blown on.
> Which type is used if:
> 1. You are filling a nail hole.
> 2. Filling in depressions on ceiling the size of a silver dollar.
Just about any joint compound will work.
> 3. Skim coating a wall.
Oops. Different stuff. You use plaster top coat for this, much harder
than joint compound. You can trowel it smooth like cement. It leaves a
finish that is really durable and difficult to ding up.
-- Larry
TinMan1332
>There are more kinds than that. There are also various hot muds that set
>quickly. You can buy 20 minute, 30 minute, up to about 60 minute hot
>mud.
Not to mention 5 minute (a favorite of mine, mix quickly and work even quicker
<G>). 45 minute and 90 minute.
Standard spackle and or lightweight spackle will cause one nothing but grief
when trying to use these as joint compound. Since they cost more and are
difficult to use on large areas... why would one even try.
From my past experiences, I now just pass on the lightweight drywall
compound... I personally feel its too soft. OTOH, it being softer may help a
novice get a better finish in the end.
sengsa...@my-deja.com
thin water consistency general purpose lightweight and more. But I've
come away with answers on how much to thin-down the mud for various
steps in the process of finishing sheetrock.
I've found that if it's too dry when you put the tape on, the tape will
not adhere on 100% of it's surface. You see this after it's dry, and
need to slice it open with a blade and force some compound in there.
And if it's too thick when you are on your last coat, you can't feather
it to the wall very well. Also, I noticed when you are on you last
coat, if you lay it on and scrape it off a few times (skim coating over
your last coat), the mud in your pan dries out quickly, requiring some
water and remixing.
I was looking for a measure of consistency of the mud. I thought of a
'universal' test: take 1/8 cup of mud, place it on a knife, then drop it
on a concrete floor, 4 feet above the surface. The diameter of the
splat would be the consistency measurement. My sister said 'the
consistency of pancake batter on the finish coat', but I'm not so sure
what pancake batter should look like either!
The questions I have are "Is there a measure of consistency that could
be communicated here?", and "What are the optimal consistencies for the
various steps in the process?"
--Dale--
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
John Barry
Garden-variety drywall compoune works fine, right out of the bucket, for me.
Just keep the bucket covered unless transferring compound to your small
work-bucket.
And, when taping, slop it on relatively thick (1/4"?) before applying tape.
And get the tape up there quickly. Then squeeze out as much as possible
when bedding tape, before immediately applying light coat on top of tape.
Lots of light coats seem to work best, and not fussing with it while drying
HTH,
John
<sengsa...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7qls45$dhm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
KenMez
spot
John Barry <j...@zedak.com> wrote in message
news:7qm405$k...@dfw-ixnews21.ix.netcom.com...
Steve Manes
>I've searched around the usenet for drywall mud joint compound thick
>thin water consistency general purpose lightweight and more. But I've
>come away with answers on how much to thin-down the mud for various
>steps in the process of finishing sheetrock.
To echo and expand on what others have said, don't obsess on the
compound. A ready-mix is good for all applications (except
skim-coating, which is another topic).
However, on the first coat don't try to force out every last drop of
compound from under the tape. That's what will lead to a dry joint
and separation later. Use a flexible five or six-inch knife (not
one of those stiff Allway jobbies) and smooth the joint with the flat
of the blade. Gently remove any high spots. Don't worry about any
small voids. Subsequent coats will cover those later.
Use a compound tray, basically a 12" thing that looks like a bread
baking tin. Transfer compound to it; NEVER vice versa. Throw out
what's left over.
If you have left-over compound after smoothing a joint, don't put it
back in the pan. Slap it on the next joint to avoid contaminating the
tray with any grit. If it's dirty, scrape it off and throw it out..
Then clean the knives.
Keep your blades clean. Maybe I obsess too but I clean my knives in
water every fourth or fifth joint.
Wetting the tape will make for better adhesion but it takes a
practiced touch with a knife to avoid tearing or roughing it up.
When I finish for the day, I use a sprayer to lay a thin coat of water
on the compound. This will dissolve any crusting that may accumulate
on the top during the day and which can lead to gouges on your
subsequent coats.
Before laying down another coat of compound, run a clean blade down
the joint to remove any loose stuff.
Before the last coat, use a hand (not power) sanding pad and drywall
screen to _gently_ remove any high spots. Avoid sanding into the tape
or drywall paper. Then use a hand broom to remove any dust.
On the final coat, try for a smooth, very thin coat. If there are
tiny scratches, don't worry. Mark where they are with a pencil on the
drywall and continue. You can touch them up later (usually within the
hour) with a two-inch knife before you wet sand the joint prior to
priming.
If you're _real_ obessive, you can do what I do on potentially visible
joints, such as those over wall sconces. Shine a work light directly
up the wall to look for imperfections before wet sanding.
Steve Manes
If you plan to finish the wall with an enamel, it's a good idea to
give the whole wall a light skim coat of compound before wet sanding.
I use a 22" squeegee device from Tex-Master for this purpose. This is
the exception to the "ready mix is okay" rule. I mix a cup of water
per gallon of ready-mix and stir it with a compound paddle and an
electric drill and apply it with a 1/2" nap paint roller.
Daniel Hicks
>
> Huh? Methinks you obsess about one component of the job.
> Garden-variety drywall compoune works fine, right out of the bucket, for me.
> Just keep the bucket covered unless transferring compound to your small
> work-bucket.
Another thing -- don't put "used" mud back in the bucket. Scoop out
what you can work with into a trough, and discard what's left when
you're done. (Also discard the mud in the trough when it gets
"overripe" from drying out or collecting bits of paper and dirt while
you're working.) Dried-out specks of mud contaminate the mud in the
bucket and make it "skip" when spread.
Daniel Hicks
"until right"), but one way to avoid the over-dry, tape-peeling problem
is to wet the tape before installation. Dip in in water and wring it
out by squeegeeing it out between your fingers before installation.
sengsa...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I've searched around the usenet for drywall mud joint compound thick
> thin water consistency general purpose lightweight and more. But I've
> come away with answers on how much to thin-down the mud for various
> steps in the process of finishing sheetrock.
>
sengsa...@my-deja.com
post. My conclusion is that those of you who use mud straight out of
the bucket are making the job harder than it has to be and/or getting a
reduced quality finish.
And to answer my first question, there seems to be no way to measure the
consistency of mud, other than just to know what it looks and feels
like.
To answer my second question, I talked to several people who get paid to
finish drywall, and they all thin the mud to various degrees. My
interpretation from the interviews was that the thicker your coat is
going to be, the thicker you mud should be. For instance, if you are
doing outside corners (a thick coat), you want some thick mud (but even
here, the pros I talked with thinned a little bit, but the instructions
on the container said no need to thin the compound for this type of
coat).
The pros said that you want it thin enough to "go on easy", but thick
enough so it "don't fall off your knife". And thick enough where it
won't droop on a thick coat. And there was consensus on having the
thinnest consistency for the finish coat. One indicator of too thick
mud that I learned is if you get those bubbles as you are applying the
mud, and they won't go away. I always see those bubbles, but if your
mud is too thick, then even with repeated strokes, the bubbles remain.
With thinner mud, the bubbles go away after a few passes with the blade.
Like I said, a lot of mud's gone up (several buckets) in the last few
days. I tried it straight from the bucket, various brands. One labeled
"MAC" (machine application consistency) was the most usable straight
from the bucket, but I think MAC means that it's been pre-thinned! For
the 'normal' (non-MAC) mud, I found that thinning the mud made it much
easier to get it on the wall like I wanted.
At first, I pulled some mud into the tray and thinned just that small
batch. Water sprinkled on the mud and stirred, flopped, and so on with
the knife. Once consistant, I'd go at the job, noting how easily it
went on the wall. Sometimes it'd be too wet (not leaving enough mud on
the wall, or dripping off the knife excessively). I learned something
there. I also noticed that putting up and taking off mud will dry your
mud out quickly. And that too-wet-mud might be perfect only 10 minutes
later! I'd look at the wall and say "wow, that's a perfect 4 foot, by 5
inch, by 1/8 inch with one knife full'. That's "the zone". That's when
a mental note was taken as to the consistency. And another 10 or 15
minutes later, I'd have too dry mud, and I'd have to sprinkle-in some
water, and remix. I'd been scraping down the wall before mudding, and
keeping my knife out of debris, so there was no need to throw out the
mud, just get it back into the zone.
Once I got settled into the consistnecy I liked for the kind of coat I
was doing, I mixed bigger batches. What I did was to put some water
(maybe a 1/2 to 1 cup) in a 5 gal pail of mud, and stir the top 6 or 8
inches until it was consistent. As I knifed-out mud to use, after a
while, I'd feel the layer that didn't get thinned (the knife sort of
sticks in the thick mud, and doesn't move as smoothly), and I'd add more
water, and stir the next 6 or 8 inches down. This worked out great.
In article <7qm405$k...@dfw-ixnews21.ix.netcom.com>,
"John Barry" <j...@zedak.com> wrote:
> Huh? Methinks you obsess about one component of the job.
> Garden-variety drywall compoune works fine, right out of the bucket,
for me.
Like I said, I tried this out of the bucket approach, and it was much
harder for me to get the results I liked with un-thinned,
out-of-the-bucket mud. The biggest contrast was trying
out-of-the-bucket mud on the finish coat, with a long knife. No matter
what the pressure, the mud was just much thicker than I needed or
wanted.
If you thought I was obsessive before, you'll really think so now (after
writing all of this). But the pros I talked with had a lot more to say
about thickness than they had time to tell me about, so it's like any
trade... there are a lot of tricks contained therein.
In article <37CF1ECA...@ieee.org>,
Daniel Hicks <danh...@ieee.org> wrote:
> Another thing -- don't put "used" mud back in the bucket. Scoop out
> what you can work with into a trough, and discard what's left when
> you're done. (Also discard the mud in the trough when it gets
> "overripe" from drying out or collecting bits of paper and dirt while
> you're working.) Dried-out specks of mud contaminate the mud in the
> bucket and make it "skip" when spread.
>
I can see tossing contaminated mud, but I can't see tossing mud that's
simply got a bit drier than I like (is that overripe?). My pan is
always free of debris and dried mud chunks. But let's face it,
depending on which coat you're working on, the mud in my tray has been
on the wall 20 or more times! Let's take the finish coat, for instance.
A conservative estimate would be that of 90% of the mud I put on the
wall comes back off. I can put a quart of mud in my tray and do a
finish coat on 10 or 15 joints. But after about three, the mud starts
to dry a bit. At that point, I add water, get it back to "the zone" and
continue. If you let it get _really_ dry, and it get's lumpy, yeah,
toss it, but if you have some zen with your mud, you'll keep it in shape
(I threw in the zen thing because I wanted to give John some ammo on the
obsessive thing).
In article <bC=PN8SapVB4X+x...@4ax.com>,
Steve Manes <sma...@NOSPAM.HEREmagpie.com> wrote:
>
> To echo and expand on what others have said, don't obsess on the
> compound. A ready-mix is good for all applications (except
> skim-coating, which is another topic).
>
I've harped on out of the bucket enough! I do appreciate the thinning
down and applying with a roller idea. But how much different is a skim
coat than a finish coat over a joint? I mean, you've got your fill coat
done, you've only got to 'skim' over the joint to hide the ridges left
from last time, and feather it to the wall. Why would you use thick
mud?
> If you have left-over compound after smoothing a joint, don't put it
> back in the pan. Slap it on the next joint to avoid contaminating the
> tray with any grit. If it's dirty, scrape it off and throw it out..
> Then clean the knives.
>
Like I said above, I keep things clean. There's nothing loose on the
wall, and I keep my tool out of gritty places. Putting scraped-off mud
on the next joint isn't workable! Time is critical when doing the
finish coat. If you drop a bunch of mud on joint 2, and go back and
finish joint 1, you've got a mess to deal with, because the edges have
dried-out, and you've made more sanding work for yourself. On earlier
coats (tape and fill coats), I avoid contamination of my mud by the
knife full. If I scrape something chunky, or touch my knife to the
floor, I go scrape the bad part it off in the trash (or for small
amounts, on the outside of my tray). But in those earlier coats, I
really don't care about a chunk or the streak that results... I'm going
to have a finish coat that will cover those. If you keep in mind the
goal of each coat, you see. Tape coat - imbed the tape and leave no
high spots, Fill coat - fill the valley, with a slight depression,
Finish coat - remove imperfections (ridges, streaks, etc).
>
> On the final coat, try for a smooth, very thin coat.
I agree 100%, but I don't see how you can get a "very thin coat" with
out-of-the-bucket mud. I wish more of the mudders around here spoke
english, but the ones that did have command of the language said that
they added the most water on the finish coat.
>
> If you're _real_ obessive, you can do what I do on potentially visible
> joints, such as those over wall sconces. Shine a work light directly
> up the wall to look for imperfections before wet sanding.
>
You might call it obsessive, but I think we all know that 1) it doesn't
take a rocket scientist to mud walls, and 2) it does take quite a long
time. The result of 1) and 2) is that most of us would have plenty of
brain power to spare while working. Why not use those extra CPU cycles
to make the next joint a bit easier and of higher quality?
--Dale--
In article <7qls45$dhm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Daniel Hicks
>
> A lot of mud on the walls, and discussions with the pros since my last
> post. My conclusion is that those of you who use mud straight out of
> the bucket are making the job harder than it has to be and/or getting a
> reduced quality finish.
I've never thinned mud, but I've found it quite useful (and possibly
absolutely required) to "work" it for a minute or two before spreading
it. And my rule on applying it is to ALWAYS apply the thinnest coat
possible. It's a lot easier to add more than it is to take it off.
Tim Werbstein
about plastering. You must have also evaluated the hardness of the
resulting plaster against plaster whose mud had not been rewetted and
remixed much.
In my "youth" I experimented with gypsum plaster (a natural builder I
was!): I added water and remixed (retempered) the mud until I could
produce a look alike for blackboard chalk. This I cast in a large
diameter plastic straw. After several batches it worked.. looked and
wrote just like chalk. Then I tried adding yet more water and remixing
until I could produce a "trick" stick of chalk, which would crush as you
tried to write with it! This was a great prank on unsuspecting
teachers! Yet I graduated!
Of course my lesson was that adding water and retempering can soften the
resulting plaster if not limited by the total amount of water and period
after initial set.
sengsa...@my-deja.com
Interesting experiments. And easy to do, too. Since I have so much
time to think during mudding, it did cross my mind that the finished
product's properties might be changed by adding water and remixing. I
even thought I might call the manufacturer to ask about that. But from
what I could tell, there was no difference in the hardness of the dried
mud.
Now I can tell for sure that the "Light" mud is different when dry than
the "normal" mud. The light can be scratched very easily when dry. The
corner of your knife will gouge the corner much more easily with light
mud than normal mud.
One thing about the pre-mixed mud I'm using, it's not like plaster (ie
plaster of paris) that 'cures'. It dries. It comes wet in the bucket.
So I figured that adding water would cause it to shrink more as it
dried (that's the warning on the label of the mud bucket), but not
change it's properties when dry.
Interesting experiment with the "chalk - crumbly chalk". Too bad they
don't have chalkboards in school any more, or I'd do that experiment
with my elementary school daughter (she has a great sense of humor, and
an interst in science... not sure about her new teacher!).
In article <37D65CA5...@hwagwashington.com>,
Daniel Hicks
>
> It looks like you have done a thorough job researching and learning
> about plastering. You must have also evaluated the hardness of the
> resulting plaster against plaster whose mud had not been rewetted and
> remixed much.
>
> In my "youth" I experimented with gypsum plaster (a natural builder I
> was!): I added water and remixed (retempered) the mud until I could
> produce a look alike for blackboard chalk. This I cast in a large
> diameter plastic straw. After several batches it worked.. looked and
> wrote just like chalk. Then I tried adding yet more water and remixing
> until I could produce a "trick" stick of chalk, which would crush as you
> tried to write with it! This was a great prank on unsuspecting
> teachers! Yet I graduated!
>
> Of course my lesson was that adding water and retempering can soften the
> resulting plaster if not limited by the total amount of water and period
> after initial set.
Recall that standard mud, especially the premix stuff, is a "drying" vs
"setting" compound -- it must dry out to harden and can be softened with
water once hard. Plaster of Paris, on the other hand, will set under
water (I've done it). A "setting" type mud will behave differently from
regular premix.
PaulMmn
about mud in your eye. Er, mud on your wall:
The only thing I can add to your excellent treatise on mudding is that
you can't have a hard day at work, zip home along the interstate at 70
mph, slam into the driveway, change into your work clothes, and start
mudding.
Mudding takes a bit of zen-- you have to approach the job as something
that won't be done -now-, won't be done in a hurry.
You have to put yourself into a relaxed state of mind: You must be
'in the zone' along with your mud. (:
Once you accept this as something not susceptible to the A.S.A.P.
mentality of the workplace, you'll have much better success at taping
and mudding.
--Paul E Musselman
Pau...@ix.netcom.nospam.com
sengsa...@my-deja.com
It reminds me of the lady who's husband would get out of the car and
first go around the yard, touching the trees and plants. Only then
would he come in the house and interact with her and the kids. No
one asked why he did this until well into his retirement. The wife
finally asked about this behaviour and the man said he was hanging all
of his troubles outside on the plants... a transition between the
stressful world and interaction with his family.
--Dale--
In article <YQrfN7Yz8zSpZz...@4ax.com>,