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Major Tornado in Oklahoma City
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nestork
May 20, 2013, 6:20:19 PM5/20/13
to
The tornado that tore through Oklahoma City today left a path of
destruction over a mile wide. In some places the damaged area is 2 1/4
miles across. My understanding is that tornado;s are generally less
than 300 yards across, but the damage can extend over a much larger area
because of the debris the tornado throws around.
I'm thinking that more intense storms like this are the result of global
warming. With warmer air temperatures you have more moisture in the
air, and as that moisture condenses to form rain you get more energy
released into the surrounding atmosphere. More energy = more powerful
storms.
I heard on the news that with global warming would come more powerful
hurricanes, and I guess we're going to be seeing larger and more
powerful tornados too.
--
nestork
k...@attt.bizz
May 20, 2013, 8:59:31 PM5/20/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 00:20:19 +0200, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:
>
>The tornado that tore through Oklahoma City today left a path of
>destruction over a mile wide. In some places the damaged area is 2 1/4
>miles across. My understanding is that tornado;s are generally less
>than 300 yards across, but the damage can extend over a much larger area
>because of the debris the tornado throws around.
Mile wide tornadoes aren't rare.
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:
>
>The tornado that tore through Oklahoma City today left a path of
>destruction over a mile wide. In some places the damaged area is 2 1/4
>miles across. My understanding is that tornado;s are generally less
>than 300 yards across, but the damage can extend over a much larger area
>because of the debris the tornado throws around.
>I'm thinking that more intense storms like this are the result of global
>warming. With warmer air temperatures you have more moisture in the
>air, and as that moisture condenses to form rain you get more energy
>released into the surrounding atmosphere. More energy = more powerful
>storms.
>I heard on the news that with global warming would come more powerful
>hurricanes, and I guess we're going to be seeing larger and more
>powerful tornados too.
...or that tornadoes aren't exactly a rarity in OK.
Idiot.
IGot2P
May 20, 2013, 9:37:51 PM5/20/13
to
mile of land as they are in Florida.
ChairMan
May 20, 2013, 10:58:04 PM5/20/13
to
In news:knej5f$pul$1...@speranza.aioe.org,
IGot2P <IGo...@crsales.com> belched:
they don't call it tornado alley for nothing.
I've lived in NorthTX for over forty years and its spring time, its tornado
season
Look up the one that went threw Dallas in 57, it wern't no little twister
IGot2P <IGo...@crsales.com> belched:
I've lived in NorthTX for over forty years and its spring time, its tornado
season
Look up the one that went threw Dallas in 57, it wern't no little twister
Pete C.
May 20, 2013, 11:46:14 PM5/20/13
to
nestork wrote:
>
> The tornado that tore through Oklahoma City today left a path of
> destruction over a mile wide. In some places the damaged area is 2 1/4
> miles across.
same location 13+ years ago, and numerous ones in the state over the
centuries. It's sadly nothing out of the norm for the area, just higher
casualties and publicity due to the ever increasing population.
THE...@isnear.com
May 21, 2013, 3:51:51 AM5/21/13
to
THE END IS NEAR
THE END IS NEAR
Stormin Mormon
May 21, 2013, 7:11:57 AM5/21/13
to
I think it was the Michael Savage show, I was listening last night. He reminds us that the same part of the world, Oklahoma, has been getting tornados for the last several hundred years of recorded history. Long since mankind started using fossil fuels. That the earth has been cooling for the last 30 or so years. And that we should expect the likes of Al Gore to be back in the news.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"nestork" <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote in message news:nestork...@diybanter.com...
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"nestork" <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote in message news:nestork...@diybanter.com...
Frank
May 21, 2013, 8:38:36 AM5/21/13
to
All the storms like this have happened in the past. Build in a hundred
year flood plain like on the Jersey shore or in a tornado alley,
eventually the statistics will catch up with you.
k...@attt.bizz
May 21, 2013, 8:48:45 AM5/21/13
to
k...@attt.bizz
May 21, 2013, 8:51:56 AM5/21/13
to
On Mon, 20 May 2013 22:46:14 -0500, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
wrote:
The meteorologist on the drive in this morning was saying that the
chance of a damaging tornado in that area is 30% within 25 miles of
any given spot, each May. The chance of a killer tornado in OK is
100%, each May.
wrote:
chance of a damaging tornado in that area is 30% within 25 miles of
any given spot, each May. The chance of a killer tornado in OK is
100%, each May.
k...@attt.bizz
May 21, 2013, 8:52:33 AM5/21/13
to
tra...@optonline.net
May 21, 2013, 9:07:12 AM5/21/13
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
The worst tornado in the US was back in 1925. Killed 695.
Did global warming cause that too?
Home Guy
May 21, 2013, 9:51:08 AM5/21/13
to
What are the chances of seeing higher nationwide insurance costs due to
these floods, explosions, forest fires and tornadoes?
these floods, explosions, forest fires and tornadoes?
bud--
May 21, 2013, 11:18:12 AM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 7:07 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On May 21, 8:38 am, Frank<frankdotlogu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 5/20/2013 6:20 PM, nestork wrote:
>>
>>> The tornado that tore through Oklahoma City today left a path of
>>> destruction over a mile wide. In some places the damaged area is 2 1/4
>>> miles across. My understanding is that tornado;s are generally less
>>> than 300 yards across, but the damage can extend over a much larger area
>>> because of the debris the tornado throws around.
Tornadoes that wide are rare but occur.
> On May 21, 8:38 am, Frank<frankdotlogu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 5/20/2013 6:20 PM, nestork wrote:
>>
>>> The tornado that tore through Oklahoma City today left a path of
>>> destruction over a mile wide. In some places the damaged area is 2 1/4
>>> miles across. My understanding is that tornado;s are generally less
>>> than 300 yards across, but the damage can extend over a much larger area
>>> because of the debris the tornado throws around.
>>
>>> I'm thinking that more intense storms like this are the result of global
>>> warming. With warmer air temperatures you have more moisture in the
>>> air, and as that moisture condenses to form rain you get more energy
>>> released into the surrounding atmosphere. More energy = more powerful
>>> storms.
>>
>>> I heard on the news that with global warming would come more powerful
>>> hurricanes, and I guess we're going to be seeing larger and more
>>> powerful tornados too.
>>
>> The global warming alarmists blame everything on global warming.
>> All the storms like this have happened in the past. Build in a hundred
>> year flood plain like on the Jersey shore or in a tornado alley,
>> eventually the statistics will catch up with you.
When was the last time the arctic ocean got as ice free as it is getting
now?
Specific events can't be linked to global warming. Trends can. "More
energy = more powerful storms" is true in general (but can't be tied to
this tornado).
(I don't think anyone links current hurricane activity to global warming
at this point.)
>
> The worst tornado in the US was back in 1925. Killed 695.
> Did global warming cause that too?
Did they predict a major storm with possibility of tornadoes days in
advance of the 1925 tornado?
Was there 15-40 minutes warning for the 1925 tornado?
Did they have sirens and weather radio for warning in 1925?
This tornado people were advised to drive away. Looking at scenes of
destruction I can see why. I don't remember that advice previously.
Kurt Ullman
May 21, 2013, 10:44:11 AM5/21/13
to
In article <519b8262$0$33870$c3e8da3$a909...@news.astraweb.com>,
Katrina. The Hurricane Forecase center and others were pointing to GW as
heating up the seas and how we were going to see the norm being like
that year. The next year they forecast 5 more storms than appeared in
what was one of the more sedate years for hurricanes. THAT was explained
away by at least a couple people as being related to GW because that
caused sand storms in Africa that built up sand particles in the
atmosphere that made it harder for hurricanes to form.
GW was the reason for the exceedingly warm weather in 2012 winter
and there were many forecasts that it was going to be another repeat
this winter. Which, returned to the mean. I have already heard that GW
will be responsible to another hot, hot summer and a draught. We'll see
how that works out.
>
> This tornado people were advised to drive away. Looking at scenes of
> destruction I can see why. I don't remember that advice previously.
This is a new wrinkle the Weather Service put in place for this
year. Mostly related to alarm fatigue and people were ignoring the
warnings. So, they jazzed them up a little bit more and made them a
little more specific as to what to expect.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the bastards."-- Claire Wolfe
bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>
> Specific events can't be linked to global warming. Trends can. "More
> energy = more powerful storms" is true in general (but can't be tied to
> this tornado).
>
> (I don't think anyone links current hurricane activity to global warming
> at this point.)
It was a few years when we had the big outbreaks before and after
>
> Specific events can't be linked to global warming. Trends can. "More
> energy = more powerful storms" is true in general (but can't be tied to
> this tornado).
>
> (I don't think anyone links current hurricane activity to global warming
> at this point.)
Katrina. The Hurricane Forecase center and others were pointing to GW as
heating up the seas and how we were going to see the norm being like
that year. The next year they forecast 5 more storms than appeared in
what was one of the more sedate years for hurricanes. THAT was explained
away by at least a couple people as being related to GW because that
caused sand storms in Africa that built up sand particles in the
atmosphere that made it harder for hurricanes to form.
GW was the reason for the exceedingly warm weather in 2012 winter
and there were many forecasts that it was going to be another repeat
this winter. Which, returned to the mean. I have already heard that GW
will be responsible to another hot, hot summer and a draught. We'll see
how that works out.
>
> >
> > The worst tornado in the US was back in 1925. Killed 695.
> > Did global warming cause that too?
>
> Not a valid way to compare.
>
> Did they predict a major storm with possibility of tornadoes days in
> advance of the 1925 tornado?
> Was there 15-40 minutes warning for the 1925 tornado?
> Did they have sirens and weather radio for warning in 1925?
Talk about lack of valid comparisons.
> >
> > The worst tornado in the US was back in 1925. Killed 695.
> > Did global warming cause that too?
>
> Not a valid way to compare.
>
> Did they predict a major storm with possibility of tornadoes days in
> advance of the 1925 tornado?
> Was there 15-40 minutes warning for the 1925 tornado?
> Did they have sirens and weather radio for warning in 1925?
>
> This tornado people were advised to drive away. Looking at scenes of
> destruction I can see why. I don't remember that advice previously.
year. Mostly related to alarm fatigue and people were ignoring the
warnings. So, they jazzed them up a little bit more and made them a
little more specific as to what to expect.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the bastards."-- Claire Wolfe
Bob F
May 21, 2013, 10:49:15 AM5/21/13
to
Bob F
May 21, 2013, 10:50:25 AM5/21/13
to
Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I think it was the Michael Savage show, I was listening last night.
> He reminds us that the same part of the world, Oklahoma, has been
> getting tornados for the last several hundred years of recorded
> history. Long since mankind started using fossil fuels. That the
> earth has been cooling for the last 30 or so years. And that we
> should expect the likes of Al Gore to be back in the news.
> .
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
WOW! You actually believe that garbage??
> I think it was the Michael Savage show, I was listening last night.
> He reminds us that the same part of the world, Oklahoma, has been
> getting tornados for the last several hundred years of recorded
> history. Long since mankind started using fossil fuels. That the
> earth has been cooling for the last 30 or so years. And that we
> should expect the likes of Al Gore to be back in the news.
> .
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
Kurt Ullman
May 21, 2013, 11:12:11 AM5/21/13
to
In article <c7ydnbNUTq-mFQbM...@earthlink.com>,
from Ghostbusters. \
"Dogs and Cats! Living Together! Mass Hysteria!"
Kurt Ullman <kurtu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is a new wrinkle the Weather Service put in place for this
> year. Mostly related to alarm fatigue and people were ignoring the
> warnings. So, they jazzed them up a little bit more and made them a
> little more specific as to what to expect.
I call this the Bill Murray school of forecasting. Remember the line
> This is a new wrinkle the Weather Service put in place for this
> year. Mostly related to alarm fatigue and people were ignoring the
> warnings. So, they jazzed them up a little bit more and made them a
> little more specific as to what to expect.
from Ghostbusters. \
"Dogs and Cats! Living Together! Mass Hysteria!"
Attila Iskander
May 21, 2013, 11:20:46 AM5/21/13
to
"Climate Disruption" is a dead horse that only fools continue to flog.
<http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/052013-656858-science-news-undermines-climate-change-claims.htm>
Five Reasons The Global Warming Scare Is Fading
Climate Hysteria: The unraveling of the global warming scare continues
thanks to several recent important pieces of science news.
The alarmists who have hyped fear for decades should be ashamed
of themselves.
k...@attt.bizz
May 21, 2013, 11:31:05 AM5/21/13
to
anything else, HomoGay.
tra...@optonline.net
May 21, 2013, 11:31:19 AM5/21/13
to
On May 21, 10:19 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
I didn't say it's a valid way to compare. It's just as valid
though as trying to tie this latest tornado to global warming.
And it shows that deadly tornadoes are nothing new or
unusual.
>
> Did they predict a major storm with possibility of tornadoes days in
> advance of the 1925 tornado?
> Was there 15-40 minutes warning for the 1925 tornado?
> Did they have sirens and weather radio for warning in 1925?
Those are valid points. To those you should add,
was the population of the areas hit anywhere near what
it is today?
>
> This tornado people were advised to drive away. Looking at scenes of
> destruction I can see why. I don't remember that advice previously.
Are you sure about that? I heard people talking about
possibly driving away AFTER, but was not aware that
officials had given out that advice. It seems especially
odd advice, because if 25 people try to drive away
it's one thing. If you give that advice to the whole town,
everybody not only where the tornado actually wound
up hitting, but everyone in the path of where it might
be in 10 mins, how well is that going to work?
though as trying to tie this latest tornado to global warming.
And it shows that deadly tornadoes are nothing new or
unusual.
>
> Did they predict a major storm with possibility of tornadoes days in
> advance of the 1925 tornado?
> Was there 15-40 minutes warning for the 1925 tornado?
> Did they have sirens and weather radio for warning in 1925?
was the population of the areas hit anywhere near what
it is today?
>
> This tornado people were advised to drive away. Looking at scenes of
> destruction I can see why. I don't remember that advice previously.
possibly driving away AFTER, but was not aware that
officials had given out that advice. It seems especially
odd advice, because if 25 people try to drive away
it's one thing. If you give that advice to the whole town,
everybody not only where the tornado actually wound
up hitting, but everyone in the path of where it might
be in 10 mins, how well is that going to work?
Stormin Mormon
May 21, 2013, 12:24:17 PM5/21/13
to
I wonder. Is the Obama economic depression due
to global warming?
.
.
"Frank" <frankdo...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:knfpla$roq$1...@dont-email.me...
to global warming?
.
.
"Frank" <frankdo...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:knfpla$roq$1...@dont-email.me...
Stormin Mormon
May 21, 2013, 12:25:08 PM5/21/13
to
Folks were heating with wood and coal
back then. Lots of carbon dioxide into
the air.
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:ba47cc45-af34-4da7-a7d9-
back then. Lots of carbon dioxide into
the air.
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:ba47cc45-af34-4da7-a7d9-
Frank
May 21, 2013, 12:51:25 PM5/21/13
to
Frank
May 21, 2013, 12:59:57 PM5/21/13
to
here in Delaware. My son was driving on the road with me and we looked
to see a scene out of the Wizard of Oz taking place only a few hundred
yards from us of a tornado taking out a school gym.
Son asked what to do and I said, "Floor it." Tornado was coming at us
but we avoided it. Besides the school gym, only a mile from where I
live, there were 6 houses made uninhabitable. Fortunately no one was
hurt. Tornado was pretty narrow in that houses damaged that I saw were
not even next to each other.
Oren
May 21, 2013, 1:24:00 PM5/21/13
to
>They may not be a rarity in OK but they are not as common per square
>mile of land as they are in Florida.
Had you said lightening strikes, then I would agree. Tornadoes - no
>mile of land as they are in Florida.
way.
tra...@optonline.net
May 21, 2013, 1:24:34 PM5/21/13
to
On May 21, 12:59 pm, Frank <frankdotlogu...@comcast.net> wrote:
> not even next to each other.- Hide quoted text -
could have been done to prevent at least some of the loss of life.
Within hours of the Newtown CT school shooting, all the pumdits,
politicians, etc were calling for more gun regulations, without any
evidence that what they were proposing would have made a
difference.
In the cases of tornados and schools, I don't think
any have true tornado shelters. I think most just rely on
some sections of the building being built stronger than
the rest? But, how smart is that in an area that is prone
to frequent tornadoes? They apparently had plenty of
warning, but not true shelter to go to.
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have yet to see anyone in the media talking about what
> - Show quoted text -
could have been done to prevent at least some of the loss of life.
Within hours of the Newtown CT school shooting, all the pumdits,
politicians, etc were calling for more gun regulations, without any
evidence that what they were proposing would have made a
difference.
In the cases of tornados and schools, I don't think
any have true tornado shelters. I think most just rely on
some sections of the building being built stronger than
the rest? But, how smart is that in an area that is prone
to frequent tornadoes? They apparently had plenty of
warning, but not true shelter to go to.
Oren
May 21, 2013, 1:31:09 PM5/21/13
to
>I'm thinking that more intense storms like this are the result of global
>warming.
So why hasn't there been a Category 6 or 7 Hurricane?
>warming.
Think again.
Oren
May 21, 2013, 1:38:23 PM5/21/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 06:07:12 -0700 (PDT), "tra...@optonline.net"
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>The worst tornado in the US was back in 1925. Killed 695.
>Did global warming cause that too?
No. That was the Bush ancestors.
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>The worst tornado in the US was back in 1925. Killed 695.
>Did global warming cause that too?
Frank
May 21, 2013, 2:11:50 PM5/21/13
to
construction that could hold up to a 200 mph wind. I'd probably get in
my basement and stand under house's steel beam.
You see these tornadoes on TV and think you could out run them, which
you can but in real life, during a storm they might get right on you.
We had a near tornado a couple of years ago. I looked out to dark sky
and saw a flutter of strange leaves coming in. The turbulence came near
the ground about a mile from here and brought down several trees in a
development. One house with two Cadillacs in garage was completely
destroyed. People were OK but Cadillacs destroyed. No one knew what was
coming. They did not call it a tornado because funnel did not hit the
ground but wind damage was bad.
Oren
May 21, 2013, 5:23:46 PM5/21/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 10:24:34 -0700 (PDT), "tra...@optonline.net"
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>In the cases of tornados and schools, I don't think
>any have true tornado shelters. I think most just rely on
>some sections of the building being built stronger than
>the rest? But, how smart is that in an area that is prone
>to frequent tornadoes? They apparently had plenty of
>warning, but not true shelter to go to.
Many homes in this area have shelters, below ground. I bet in the old
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>In the cases of tornados and schools, I don't think
>any have true tornado shelters. I think most just rely on
>some sections of the building being built stronger than
>the rest? But, how smart is that in an area that is prone
>to frequent tornadoes? They apparently had plenty of
>warning, but not true shelter to go to.
days a root cellar was a safe haven, if they had it.
Okie folks endure.
Jim Rusling
May 21, 2013, 8:06:06 PM5/21/13
to
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
>
>nestork wrote:
>>
>> The tornado that tore through Oklahoma City today left a path of
>> destruction over a mile wide. In some places the damaged area is 2 1/4
>> miles across.
>
>
>nestork wrote:
>>
>> The tornado that tore through Oklahoma City today left a path of
>> destruction over a mile wide. In some places the damaged area is 2 1/4
>> miles across.
>
>It's tornado alley, this tornado was really bad, as was the one in the
>same location 13+ years ago, and numerous ones in the state over the
>centuries. It's sadly nothing out of the norm for the area, just higher
>casualties and publicity due to the ever increasing population.
One thing that made this so bad is that it went from nothing to an F5
>same location 13+ years ago, and numerous ones in the state over the
>centuries. It's sadly nothing out of the norm for the area, just higher
>casualties and publicity due to the ever increasing population.
in about 1 hour.
--
Jim Rusling
More or Less Retired
Mustang, OK
k...@attt.bizz
May 21, 2013, 8:19:36 PM5/21/13
to
shelters to the older schools, like the one that was flattened. These
things don't happen overnight.
One woman was just saying that she'd built a storm cellar in her
garage floor within the last year. She said that she was going to
rebuild and that the shelter was going to be the centerpiece of her
new house.
k...@attt.bizz
May 21, 2013, 8:20:23 PM5/21/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 12:24:17 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**NOJUNK**@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I wonder. Is the Obama economic depression due
>to global warming?
Yes.
<cayoung61**NOJUNK**@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I wonder. Is the Obama economic depression due
>to global warming?
nestork
May 21, 2013, 9:13:33 PM5/21/13
to
It's rare that we get them, but we've even had tornados as far north as
Winnipeg. One tornado in 2007 was classified an F5 because it tore two
large houses off their foundations and threw them around.
That one was in the town of Elie (pronounced "ee lie") which is west of
Winnipeg.
'2007 Elie, Manitoba tornado - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie,_Manitoba_tornado)
A few years ago there was a tornado in a campground in Alberta that
killed some campers.
When I was a kid, we had a super strong wind here one day which I don't
know if it was actually a tornado or not. The only reason I remember it
was because I remember our teacher telling us that if we find ourselves
in a wind like that again, the best thing to do was to try and find a
ditch to lay in so that we were protected by the ground on each side of
us.
--
nestork
bud--
May 22, 2013, 10:09:39 AM5/22/13
to
house, the best option may to drive away.
For alarm fatigue there is new NWS language - something like "tornado
emergency". With 2 other bad tornadoes in the last 15 years I don't
think there is alarm fatigue in Moore.
bud--
May 22, 2013, 10:56:54 AM5/22/13
to
On 5/21/2013 12:11 PM, Frank wrote:
> On 5/21/2013 1:24 PM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>> On May 21, 12:59 pm, Frank <frankdotlogu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> In the cases of tornados and schools, I don't think
>> any have true tornado shelters. I think most just rely on
>> some sections of the building being built stronger than
>> the rest? But, how smart is that in an area that is prone
>> to frequent tornadoes? They apparently had plenty of
>> warning, but not true shelter to go to.
>>
I am surprised schools do not have a safe shelter. Probably will be a
> On 5/21/2013 1:24 PM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>> On May 21, 12:59 pm, Frank <frankdotlogu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> In the cases of tornados and schools, I don't think
>> any have true tornado shelters. I think most just rely on
>> some sections of the building being built stronger than
>> the rest? But, how smart is that in an area that is prone
>> to frequent tornadoes? They apparently had plenty of
>> warning, but not true shelter to go to.
>>
lot more common in the future. They could also be a community shelter. A
school at least half-way north in MN was recently destroyed by a strong
tornado. The rebuilt school has a FEMA rated shelter.
>
> They would need an actual shelter. I understand that there is no
> construction that could hold up to a 200 mph wind.
subsidies for shelter rooms good for 250 mph wind. A lot of shelter
rooms have been built. Some people whose houses were destroyed rode out
the tornado in shelter rooms. Some included neighbors. That must be one
reason the death toll was so low.
> I'd probably get in
> my basement and stand under house's steel beam.
workbenches. There are few, if any, basements in Moore. Reports said
only 31% of US houses have basements. If there is no basement, shelter
rooms can be built on the first floor and aren't that expensive for a
new house. Small rooms underground are also built.
>
> You see these tornadoes on TV and think you could out run them, which
> you can but in real life, during a storm they might get right on you.
advance warning, and knowing the approximate path, driving out is
practical and in this case safer than staying. One person drove home
from work, picked up the family, and drove away. The tornado wound up a
few blocks away from his house. He was an emergency responder, drove
home, and walked to one of the destroyed schools.
dpb
May 22, 2013, 10:35:12 AM5/22/13
to
On 5/22/2013 9:56 AM, bud-- wrote:
...
> I am surprised schools do not have a safe shelter. Probably will be a
> lot more common in the future. They could also be a community shelter. A
> school at least half-way north in MN was recently destroyed by a strong
> tornado. The rebuilt school has a FEMA rated shelter.
...
They do now; drove thru OKC yesterday on way back home from TN and
listened to much local radio coverage on way thru...they said that
particular school was built in 70s and was typical of the time which
would be just light industrial-type construction of block walls w/
welded roof trusses.
>> They would need an actual shelter. I understand that there is no
>> construction that could hold up to a 200 mph wind.
>
> You can build to protect from any wind speed you want. FEMA has provided
> subsidies for shelter rooms good for 250 mph wind. A lot of shelter
> rooms have been built. Some people whose houses were destroyed rode out
> the tornado in shelter rooms. Some included neighbors. That must be one
> reason the death toll was so low.
TA&M has done a bunch of work on safe room construction and has quite a
bit of online footage of test projectile shots, etc., ... We did some
support work at ORNL for the defense facilities at the DOE plants in Oak
Ridge while there to protect nuclear processing facilities there. Many
of the production buildings there are still from Manhattan project days
or the Cold War buildup in the 50s and were, of course, built either as
"temporary" structures in the beginning or to simply meet the present
need in the 50s. So, 60-70 yr later they're still hollow clay tile
infill walls between columns on as much as 20-ft spacing and 20 to 60 ft
tall. Needless to say, they wouldn't take much--fortunately likelihood
of large tornadoes there is very low altho there were several small ones
within a couple of miles of the facilities during our 25 years there so
like almost everywhere in the US they're not unknown...
Anyway, as noted elsewhere it's possible to do quite a lot w/ only a
relatively small amount of effort--it's just that a tuabafor wall w/
some sheathing and a layer of sheetrock is essentially invisible to a
missile approaching at 100+ mph w/ a small cross section in the forward
direction (another tubafor, iow).
>> I'd probably get in
>> my basement and stand under house's steel beam.
>
> Low down in a corner would likely be safer. NWS recommends under
> workbenches. There are few, if any, basements in Moore. Reports said
> only 31% of US houses have basements. If there is no basement, shelter
> rooms can be built on the first floor and aren't that expensive for a
> new house. Small rooms underground are also built.
...
In the basement, that's probably better agreed, altho against the
approaching-direction wall under a solid beam would be pretty good _if_
the beam support is secure. If it's on a block wall that's above grade
maybe "not so much". One of the big problems in conventional basements
for storm cellars is they're not designed for egress in the aftermath.
Don't know about Moore, specifically, how it was generally developed.
If much of it was tract housing wouldn't be surprising as they were
generally built as slab for low initial cost. In local town in SW KS
generally homes are and have been built w/ basements precisely for that
reason since very early on--the farmhouse we're in was built by g-father
and started in 1915 within the year after homesteaded the home place and
they lived in the basement after it was roofed over while finishing the
rest. Some tract houses built in the late 50s thru early 70s in town
were built on slabs, however, owing to them being built during the early
gas expansion phase when quick 'n cheap was more important than other
considerations.
Generally, in conventional housing basements are better if below grade
and not just half-depth so still can collapse a block wall, say on top
of you. In an EF5 like Moore, above ground w/ conventional construction
there's a pretty good chance it'll just level it to the main floor.
That's what happened in Greensburg, KS, a few years ago, and what
appeared in what footage I've seen to be the case in quite a few cases
in Moore.
There are a fair number of just storm cellars on some of those. All the
schools have been at least modified to have solid walls added as infill
where were initially just block walls and roofs over those areas also
strengthened.
--
...
> I am surprised schools do not have a safe shelter. Probably will be a
> lot more common in the future. They could also be a community shelter. A
> school at least half-way north in MN was recently destroyed by a strong
> tornado. The rebuilt school has a FEMA rated shelter.
They do now; drove thru OKC yesterday on way back home from TN and
listened to much local radio coverage on way thru...they said that
particular school was built in 70s and was typical of the time which
would be just light industrial-type construction of block walls w/
welded roof trusses.
>> They would need an actual shelter. I understand that there is no
>> construction that could hold up to a 200 mph wind.
>
> You can build to protect from any wind speed you want. FEMA has provided
> subsidies for shelter rooms good for 250 mph wind. A lot of shelter
> rooms have been built. Some people whose houses were destroyed rode out
> the tornado in shelter rooms. Some included neighbors. That must be one
> reason the death toll was so low.
bit of online footage of test projectile shots, etc., ... We did some
support work at ORNL for the defense facilities at the DOE plants in Oak
Ridge while there to protect nuclear processing facilities there. Many
of the production buildings there are still from Manhattan project days
or the Cold War buildup in the 50s and were, of course, built either as
"temporary" structures in the beginning or to simply meet the present
need in the 50s. So, 60-70 yr later they're still hollow clay tile
infill walls between columns on as much as 20-ft spacing and 20 to 60 ft
tall. Needless to say, they wouldn't take much--fortunately likelihood
of large tornadoes there is very low altho there were several small ones
within a couple of miles of the facilities during our 25 years there so
like almost everywhere in the US they're not unknown...
Anyway, as noted elsewhere it's possible to do quite a lot w/ only a
relatively small amount of effort--it's just that a tuabafor wall w/
some sheathing and a layer of sheetrock is essentially invisible to a
missile approaching at 100+ mph w/ a small cross section in the forward
direction (another tubafor, iow).
>> I'd probably get in
>> my basement and stand under house's steel beam.
>
> Low down in a corner would likely be safer. NWS recommends under
> workbenches. There are few, if any, basements in Moore. Reports said
> only 31% of US houses have basements. If there is no basement, shelter
> rooms can be built on the first floor and aren't that expensive for a
> new house. Small rooms underground are also built.
In the basement, that's probably better agreed, altho against the
approaching-direction wall under a solid beam would be pretty good _if_
the beam support is secure. If it's on a block wall that's above grade
maybe "not so much". One of the big problems in conventional basements
for storm cellars is they're not designed for egress in the aftermath.
Don't know about Moore, specifically, how it was generally developed.
If much of it was tract housing wouldn't be surprising as they were
generally built as slab for low initial cost. In local town in SW KS
generally homes are and have been built w/ basements precisely for that
reason since very early on--the farmhouse we're in was built by g-father
and started in 1915 within the year after homesteaded the home place and
they lived in the basement after it was roofed over while finishing the
rest. Some tract houses built in the late 50s thru early 70s in town
were built on slabs, however, owing to them being built during the early
gas expansion phase when quick 'n cheap was more important than other
considerations.
Generally, in conventional housing basements are better if below grade
and not just half-depth so still can collapse a block wall, say on top
of you. In an EF5 like Moore, above ground w/ conventional construction
there's a pretty good chance it'll just level it to the main floor.
That's what happened in Greensburg, KS, a few years ago, and what
appeared in what footage I've seen to be the case in quite a few cases
in Moore.
There are a fair number of just storm cellars on some of those. All the
schools have been at least modified to have solid walls added as infill
where were initially just block walls and roofs over those areas also
strengthened.
--
dpb
May 22, 2013, 1:03:14 PM5/22/13
to
On 5/22/2013 9:35 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 5/22/2013 9:56 AM, bud-- wrote:
> ...
...
> On 5/22/2013 9:56 AM, bud-- wrote:
> ...
>> Low down in a corner would likely be safer. NWS recommends under
...
> Don't know about Moore, specifically, how it was generally developed. If
> much of it was tract housing wouldn't be surprising as they were
> generally built as slab for low initial cost....
> much of it was tract housing wouldn't be surprising as they were
Also, don't know OTOMH what water table levels are in the area...some
areas in central KS have fairly high levels during wet weather so that's
a reason, too...
--
Ed Pawlowski
May 22, 2013, 1:40:11 PM5/22/13
to
On Wed, 22 May 2013 08:56:54 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>
wrote:
>>>
>
>I am surprised schools do not have a safe shelter. Probably will be a
>lot more common in the future. They could also be a community shelter. A
>school at least half-way north in MN was recently destroyed by a strong
>tornado. The rebuilt school has a FEMA rated shelter.
>
I heard on the news that for one school they paid over $1 million for
the shelter. This week the budget would pass, last week, probably
not.
wrote:
>>>
>
>I am surprised schools do not have a safe shelter. Probably will be a
>lot more common in the future. They could also be a community shelter. A
>school at least half-way north in MN was recently destroyed by a strong
>tornado. The rebuilt school has a FEMA rated shelter.
>
the shelter. This week the budget would pass, last week, probably
not.
dpb
May 22, 2013, 2:30:36 PM5/22/13
to
large sections into shelters at such price tags when a smaller area of
adequate size for the population of the school could have been done for
much less.
Sometimes, however, they do have a dual purpose of serving as shelter
for surrounding neighborhoods as well, not just the school itself. A
lot depends on the individual locality situation, obviously.
And, of course, the point about what will/won't pass a bond issue vote
is very dependent on the timing wrt to such events altho Moore and the
OKC area particularly has had such a history one would think it would be
a pretty easy sell.
Greensburg, KS, was wiped out almost entirely May 4, 2007. It was
estimated at 1.7 mi in width while the town was barely 2 and it made
almost a bullseye hit. Only a little towards the easternmost end of
town was relatively unscathed. It's track length was also in the 22-23
mi range, very similar to Moore. Interestingly, it was the first EF5
after the enhanced Fujita scale was introduced and the first of the F5
classification since the May 3, 1999, in Moore.
I drove up to Greensburg early that next morning (it's only about 100
mi) and came up a county road from the south that wasn't yet roadblocked
and got into town and spent most of the day helping folks gather up
enough personal belongings out of the rubble to get them through a few
days. Somewhat like this outbreak in OK this past weekend, it also
followed up there w/ a lot of rain the next several days to make things
more of a pita for early cleanup efforts.
A fine older gentleman from our local church was injured severely in it
in his daughter's home when a beam fell and hit him and he unfortunately
didn't make it, passing away in hospital in Dodge a week or so later.
And, on the other end, out here in the western quarter of the state
we're just drying up and blowin' away in sustained D4 drought classified
as "Exceptional" and the most severe category they keep. We've not had
a good t-storm and real relief since spring of 2011--just a few spotty
showers here and there. All had here over the weekend was just enough
sprinkles could see fresh tracks in the driveway when we got back home
last night.
But, it rained on us every day we were gone from E OK, AR, TN, going and
then at least some every day in TN and drove in heavy rain from Forrest,
AR until almost Shawnee, OK, yesterday before finally cleared it. The
initial front went thru Forrest about midnight w/ pretty good t-storm
but nothing severe and then the second wave hit there just as we were
getting on the road yesterday morning. Dodged cells and heavy downpours
to steady rain all the way except for a twenty minute stretch just
before Little Rock. Kept wishing (and still do) that could drag it home
w/ us...
--
k...@attt.bizz
May 22, 2013, 2:33:30 PM5/22/13
to
basements more closely relates to frost line and terrain - if you've
got to dig a hole anyway, might just as well make it a basement.
dpb
May 22, 2013, 3:16:59 PM5/22/13
to
generalization. Where we were in VA that it was such a pita to deal w/
the water problems w/ basements was probably the #2 reason; the most
common was the excavation cost of there being so much rock in so many
places it was simply cost-prohibitive. OTOH, in TN it was pretty common
in current construction even though a lot of limestone 'cuz it was
pretty easy digging even that deep despite it and water generally wasn't
an issue.
OTOH, in much of FL and in TX where grandparents are it's all
water-table--it's only a few feet at most to standing water in dry
weather and when it's wet need rocks to hold it in the ground to keep
from floating it away... :)
Had a rental house in VA (Lynchburg, actually) that was full basement on
level lot. When it got wet in rainy season, water came thru the slab
floor in every minute crack and one could hear the floor flex from the
pressure. I was right young pup back then and having grown up in dry
country and not ever experienced such a phenomenon plugged and caulked
all the places after one episode w/ wet-setting patching. The next time
it rained for a week it did actually crack the slab in new places as
well as reopening some of the existing simply from the static head of
water higher than the floor level all around the house. Pretty amazing
it was... :)
In the end, I think a big thing is whether it just becomes more-or-less
standard practice in an area and whether that happens is generally
related to all the above factors and what's gone before in the area...
--
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