Why Don't Square Head Screws Catch On?
Robert Groover
jev...@ghg.net (jim evans) writes:
>Why doesn't this major advancment/improvement in screw design catch
>on?
I've been wondering that for 25 years. I think some of the RV makers had
started using them by '73, and I've heard that they've been a standard in
Canada for longer than that. Myself, I'm TIRED of Philips drivers camming
out.
There's a lot of inertia: if you're a store owner, you have to watch your
inventory turnover; if you're a user, you don't need worries about whether
you can get what you need. However, if it's true that Robertsons are well
established in Canada, I would have expected that Robertson usage would
migrate southwards - and that hasn't happened.
There is a hardware store in Lynchburg VA (McFeely's?) which seems to be
a mail-order specialist in Robertsons, and eventually I think I'll just
buy a stock from them and switch over for my own (small) usage.
Robert Groover gro...@netcom.com (PGP key on request)
Member ECS, AVS, ACM, OSA, Sen.Mem.IEEE, Reg'd Patent Atty
"All men by nature desire knowledge."
Jon Metherd
I'd love to hear some real working professionals respond to this...
As to my own DIYer experience, I've seen Robertson "square-drive" screws come in and out
of fashion (they always seem to be promoted as the "latest thing" in every TV home show)
every few years since I noticed them in the mid-80s.
I wish I knew why they don't "dominate the industry," as many DIY sources would suggest,
but my guess is that one of the biggest advantages to Robertson screws is meaningless to
most builders (who probably don't care to buy new tools and change supply sources):
Robertsons shine most during reuse! If I was a builder, who already had plenty of philips
screwdrivers, and could count on getting philips screws everywhere on the planet (and
cheaply! who ever thought that something from Philips would become so ubiquitous?), why
would I worry about Robertson screws if all I do is screw together (once) walls that will
never be seen again (unless you're Superman)?
Maybe the philips screw will be superseded the day after VHS VCRs are junked en masse
(for anything, please!)?
jim evans wrote:
> About 2-3 years ago the shelves of my 3 regular hardware stores
> blossomed with square drive (Robertson) screws. They are wonderful
> for power screw drivers. The bit will stay in the slot under much
> more driving torque. I switched to them immediately, but . . .
>
> Slowly over time the stock has continuously shrunk until today there
> are only a few sizes and a small stock of them, while the price has
> climbed (All, I assume, because of low and decreasing demand).
>
> Why doesn't this major advancment/improvement in screw design catch
> on?
>
> jim
>
> ___
>
> Have a home upkeep question? Try my help page. It's sort of an alt.home.repair FAQ.
>
> http://www.ghgcorp.com/jevans/HomeRepair.htm
Jon Metherd
Robert Groover wrote:
> However, if it's true that Robertsons are well established in Canada, I
> would have expected that Robertson usage would
> migrate southwards - and that hasn't happened.
Yes, well, the U.S. and Canada were also going to go metric together...
Canada: no problem U.S.: metric what?
Be reminded that the Robertson's popularity in Canada is easily explained by
noting that Canada is the country of origin of this wonder invention. I'm sure
that even the mentioning the square drive screw in the Netherlands is some
form of punishable felony!
padlin
>
> Why doesn't this major advancment/improvement in screw design catch
> on?
>
I don't use them because of the cost difference. I like them and would
use them if they were priced the same as the philips.
Bob
Kevin RIley
There wonderful, There're all I use.
As a boat builder they're great for use with a bit brace (the third most used neandertool
used by boat builders).
I also need a ready supply of Si Bonze fasteners boats, McFeelys has them in stock in
square drive and I have them in a day or so.
These guys have all you'd ever need for wood work I don't know about the price
difference because I haven't bought regular screws for about 5 years.
Go to http://www.mcfeelys.com/ and ask for a catalog
jim evans wrote:
> About 2-3 years ago the shelves of my 3 regular hardware stores
> blossomed with square drive (Robertson) screws. They are wonderful
> for power screw drivers. The bit will stay in the slot under much
> more driving torque. I switched to them immediately, but . . .
>
> Slowly over time the stock has continuously shrunk until today there
> are only a few sizes and a small stock of them, while the price has
> climbed (All, I assume, because of low and decreasing demand).
>
> Why doesn't this major advancment/improvement in screw design catch
> on?
>
> jim
>
> ___
>
> Have a home upkeep question? Try my help page. It's sort of an alt.home.repair FAQ.
>
> http://www.ghgcorp.com/jevans/HomeRepair.htm
--
Kevin
Alpha Geek
Boat builder, Pilot, Harley rider
Too many hobbies
(Remove nospam from address to reply)
See the latest boat
http://www.radix.net/~lindo/Boats_Page.htm
ROGER DE VRIES
They certainly caught on me, I don't know about anybody else.
I have a lumber yard near me that sells the square drives in 50lb boxes
(YIPPEE!!). The brand name is "Scorpion", and they come galvanized from
1in up to 4in I believe (I haven't heard of Robertson around here- NY).
These screws are FAR superior to phillups, IMO. Besides being less prone
to stripping out when driving due to the square drive head, they also
have a drill point which eliminates the need to drill a pilot hole,
which in turn saves you time (which in fact may make up for the
additional cost).
....I really only have two questions in life:
Why can't I order a bagel in a deli with a _little_ butter (I tried
"just a little butter"- "lightly buttered"- "easy on the butter"- not
too much butter, alright?" but nothing works) instead of getting 5/8in
of fattening, cholesterol ridden butter slopped on it, or have the death
juice running down my arm as I attempt to eat it (in the case of a
toasted bagel). And...
Why on earth do we still need SLOTTED screws in THIS day and age!?!?
Roger D(isgusted)
Jack A. Zucker
Jon Metherd wrote:
>
> I'd love to hear some real working professionals respond to this...
>
> As to my own DIYer experience, I've seen Robertson "square-drive" screws come in and out
> of fashion (they always seem to be promoted as the "latest thing" in every TV home show)
> every few years since I noticed them in the mid-80s.
My one experience with them was less than thrilling. I was making
built-in shelves for the garage and using drywall screws to assemble the
2x4s. After going through several phillips bits, I went and bought the
square drive bits and associated screws. I found that they tore up the
heads of the screws and slipped and rounded off just about as easily as
the phillips variety.
-Jaz
John Bunting
I am only a DIY'er, but I think the beauty of square drive screws is
that it is a one-handed operation! You stick the screw on the
powerdriver bit and it does not fall off, freeing your other hand to
hold the work. I don't know why anyone still buys phillips or
slotted(terrible!).
.
To email me, please remove nspam. My correct address is:
John Bunting bun...@bcl.net Quincy, IL
Brent Robinson
This is interesting. I just returned from a year in Toronto where it was
nearly impossible to find a Philips screw. The only screws available were
"square drive". I resisted for a while, then swithched (had no choice).
Now I'm going back to Toronto to buy a supply of the square ones, since I
can't find them in Las Vegas.
Jon Metherd wrote in message <6cmcl3$h...@newsops.execpc.com>...
>I'd love to hear some real working professionals respond to this...
>
>As to my own DIYer experience, I've seen Robertson "square-drive" screws
come in and out
>of fashion (they always seem to be promoted as the "latest thing" in every
TV home show)
>every few years since I noticed them in the mid-80s.
>
>I wish I knew why they don't "dominate the industry," as many DIY sources
would suggest,
>but my guess is that one of the biggest advantages to Robertson screws is
meaningless to
>most builders (who probably don't care to buy new tools and change supply
sources):
>Robertsons shine most during reuse! If I was a builder, who already had
plenty of philips
>screwdrivers, and could count on getting philips screws everywhere on the
planet (and
>cheaply! who ever thought that something from Philips would become so
ubiquitous?), why
>would I worry about Robertson screws if all I do is screw together (once)
walls that will
>never be seen again (unless you're Superman)?
>
>Maybe the philips screw will be superseded the day after VHS VCRs are
junked en masse
>(for anything, please!)?
>
JBOBST
Menard's (bless 'em!) has square drive screws in many varieties at about the
same prices as (bleahhh!) phillips screws. Sooner or later common sense will
prevail. IMHO if builders really cared about their work quality, they'd deep
six the phillips things now. The only thing in the same league with square
drive is Torx, and it seems to be most cvommon in appliances and automobiles.
JBO...@AOL.COM
David B. Goldstein
Not sure I agree with the underlying premise that they have not caught on. For example,
square drive screws are readily available in a wide variety of sizes at Home Depot.
paull
Jack A. Zucker <j...@gwis.com> wrote in article
<34EEDA03...@gwis.com>...
> Jon Metherd wrote:
> > I'd love to hear some real working professionals respond to this...
> After going through several phillips bits, I went and bought the
> square drive bits and associated screws. I found that they tore up the
> heads of the screws and slipped and rounded off just about as easily as
> the phillips variety.
>
> -Jaz
Square head screws do not come into the handyman work I do. All of the
screw hardware is Philips head. My only contact with square head screws is
when working on mobile homes. Because all of my tools for screw work are
Phillips head, it is irritating to come across a square head. I half to
break my work routine, go to the van and get my square head tools. Then I
remove the square heads and replace them with Phillips heads. My next time
at that particular job site, I or the next person will not have to deal
with the interruption.
I suppose if the building industry had begun with square heads instead of
slot head and Phillips, then I probably would have hand tools geared for
all square head work. Then it would be Phillips head that would be the
nuisance. Most every thing I deal with now is phillips. I do not have
many slot head uses today. It was not too long ago, I encountered about
50/50 flat head and phillips head.
I find the home center products are designed to be installed or monted with
a screw gun and phillips head.
Stan Debick
>On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:43:31 -0500, "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@gwis.com>
>wrote regarding square drive screws:
>
>>I found that they tore up the heads of the screws and slipped
>>and rounded off just about as easily as the phillips variety.
I've encountered just the opposite. It is often easier to break the shank
of the screw than it is to strip the head. I've done this a # of times when
attempting to sink screws without predrilling.
Randy Wittchen
Hi Jaz
Square drive screws were invented and patented by a Canadian named
Robertson. In Canada we refer to them as Robertsons as cross-slot
screws are referred to a Phillips.
There are three sizes of the square socket heads and corresponding bits
(oddly enough known as Robertson #1, #2 and #3). If you use too small a
bit you will cam out as the bit fit too loosely. I have never cammed
out a Robertson when using the correct bit size but I have snapped the
heads off off a number of them over the years.
It is my understanding that Robertson held his patent closely for a
number of years and it is only after the patent expired that screws
other than those he produced came on the market under the name of square
drive screws. This may have contributed to the lack of initial market
penetration in the US. I find there is no price differential between
Phillips and Robertson head screws as noted by some US posters. A
number of years ago (about 30 I think) I met a tourist from the US in
Victoria who was loading up his RV shpping cartons of Robertsons in
various sizes to take back home with him. He had used Robertsons when
helping out his Canadian relative do some home repairs and loved them.
He was almost evangelical about what an advance this was over other
screws he had used in the past.
James L. Miller Jr.
has anyone suggested goverment conspiracy yet?
David B. Goldstein wrote in message <34EF13F0...@sprintmail.com>...
Johnny Skinner
It seems this thread pops up every 2 or 3 months. What seems even stranger to me is
no one seems to know that a relatively recent updating of the Robertson screw design
called a Quadrex is superior to the square drive. It combines a square recess with the
cross slots of the Phillips. With the quadrex driver there is less chance of cam out
than
the typical square drive, yet they can be removed with a phillips bit.
Cheers,
Johnny
Bill Harnell
The reason that they don't "catch on" in the USA is probably twofold - NIH
(Not Invented Here) and the fact that most American manufacturers of these
screws (that I have encountered) do not comply with the original Robertson
requirement of a tapered socket.
Screws manufactured in Canada (and some from the USA) pose no problems and
can be driven into wood further, and more easily, than hardened drywall
screws.
--
Regards,
Bill Harnell [bha...@adss.on.ca]
Jack A. Zucker <j...@gwis.com> wrote in article
<34EEDA03...@gwis.com>...
> Jon Metherd wrote:
> >
> > I'd love to hear some real working professionals respond to this...
> >
> > As to my own DIYer experience, I've seen Robertson "square-drive"
screws come in and out
> > of fashion (they always seem to be promoted as the "latest thing" in
every TV home show)
> > every few years since I noticed them in the mid-80s.
>
> My one experience with them was less than thrilling. I was making
> built-in shelves for the garage and using drywall screws to assemble the
> 2x4s. After going through several phillips bits, I went and bought the
> square drive bits and associated screws. I found that they tore up the
> heads of the screws and slipped and rounded off just about as easily as
> the phillips variety.
>
> -Jaz
>
Bill Harnell
Actually, they should cost considerably less, given the differential
between the US and Canadian dollar. Today (Saturday, Feb 21), the US dollar
enjoys a 42¢ premium!
--
Regards,
Bill Harnell [bha...@adss.on.ca]
jim evans <jev...@ghg.net> wrote in article
<34f1f937...@news.newsguy.com>...
> On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:01:37 -0500, padlin <pad...@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Why doesn't this major advancment/improvement in screw design catch
> >> on?
> >>
> >
> > I don't use them because of the cost difference. I like them and would
> >use them if they were priced the same as the philips.
>
> I figure they'd be about the same price if they sold a well a
> phillips.
--={Flyer}=--
>My one experience with them was less than thrilling. I was making
>built-in shelves for the garage and using drywall screws to assemble the
>2x4s. After going through several phillips bits, I went and bought the
>square drive bits and associated screws. I found that they tore up the
>heads of the screws and slipped and rounded off just about as easily as
>the phillips variety.
>-Jaz
Rub a bit of wax from a candle or a piece of canning wax on the screws
before you drive them. You'll save time and horsepower.
Don't use soap - it attracts moisture and the screws'll rust.
To respond via e-mail, remove the '!' from the address.
Joe Shlabotnick
Could it be a case of 'not-invented-here' syndrome? (I understand that the
Robertson fellow who invented these screws was a Canadian.)
Andrew Barss
In rec.woodworking Johnny Skinner <jski...@i-55.com> wrote:
: It seems this thread pops up every 2 or 3 months. What seems even stranger to me is
Can you explain how they're less likely to cam out than a regular
Robertson screw?
-- Andrew Barss
: Cheers,
: Johnny
--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Andrew Barss
Graduate Advisor, Department of Linguistics, University of Arizona
Communications 314A, 621-2201 or 621-6897
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Jack A. Zucker
Bill Harnell wrote:
>
> Actually, they should cost considerably less, given the differential
> between the US and Canadian dollar. Today (Saturday, Feb 21), the US dollar
> enjoys a 42¢ premium!
>
Someone's making a killing then because they DO cost more here in the
US.
-Jaz
LSSBob
Jack: I tried some square drive stainless screws about a month ago...an
awkard (sic) job putting up a clothes rack in the barn...used a very
high end square driver bit and still rounded off the bit...barely backed
out the screws and ended up using sheet rock screws...square drive seems
to me like one of those things that look super on paper but don't meet
expectations. Best regards...Bob
Shawn Grossman
Jack A. Zucker wrote:
>
> Jon Metherd wrote:
> >
> > I'd love to hear some real working professionals respond to this...
> >
> > As to my own DIYer experience, I've seen Robertson "square-drive" screws come in and out
> > of fashion (they always seem to be promoted as the "latest thing" in every TV home show)
> > every few years since I noticed them in the mid-80s.
>
> built-in shelves for the garage and using drywall screws to assemble the
> 2x4s. After going through several phillips bits, I went and bought the
> square drive bits and associated screws. I found that they tore up the
> heads of the screws and slipped and rounded off just about as easily as
> the phillips variety.
>
> -Jaz
shop, we tried switching to square drive screws. Maybe it was the type
of drills we used (pneumatic), I don't know. Every 4th or 5th one would
strip out. Yes, I know how to use a drill, yes I know how to drive a
screw.
--
It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong. It takes a bigger man to
laugh at him.
danh...@millcomm.com
In <34f096f7...@news.newsguy.com>, jev...@ghg.net (jim evans) writes:
>About 2-3 years ago the shelves of my 3 regular hardware stores
>blossomed with square drive (Robertson) screws. They are wonderful
>for power screw drivers. The bit will stay in the slot under much
>more driving torque. I switched to them immediately, but . . .
>
>Slowly over time the stock has continuously shrunk until today there
>are only a few sizes and a small stock of them, while the price has
>climbed (All, I assume, because of low and decreasing demand).
>
>on?
It is catching on. It just takes time. The pros have embraced square
drive screws for a number of special purposes. It's really the Saturday
afternoon types that haven't started using them.
Twenty years ago Phillips head screws were uncommon, but now they are more
common than slotted screws. Square drive will get its chance, it's just
that it may not be in our lifetime.
Dan Hicks
Hey!! My advice is free -- take it for what it's worth!
http://www.millcomm.com/~danhicks
TinMan1332
See my post under "cordless drills" where this was originally mentioned.
TinMan1332
padlin <pad...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> I don't use them because of the cost difference. I like them and would
>use them if they were priced the same as the philips.
They cost more... because if they are made to the proper specs, they are much
tougher and harder to break or round out at the head that other screws.
Phillips (or crosscut) screws could be made to tougher specs, but the tip would
probably jump out of the head in tough conditions. The square drive solves this
problem and allows more force to be transfered without slippage.
J.P.
SWilli4447
>It is catching on. It just takes time. The pros have embraced square drive
screws for a number of special purposes.
I agree. I install blinds and draperies and even though I get free hex head
slotted screws by the thousands, I pay cash money for the square drives and I
smile when I write the check. I run up to 500 screws a day (mainly #6 x 1 1/4
through wallboard into studs) and would never go back to slots or phillips.
Life's too short for the frustration and humans only come with a max of two
hands...
Steve
TinMan1332
LSSBob <fore...@juno.com> writes:
Like everything else... quality differs from item to item. The screws in
question were most likely of low quality stainless.
J.P.
Dan Lanciani
In article <34EF26...@direct.ca>, witt...@direct.ca (Randy Wittchen) writes:
[...]
| There are three sizes of the square socket heads and corresponding bits
| (oddly enough known as Robertson #1, #2 and #3).
Interesting. Are you sure there is no #0? I have some RF filters that
are held together with square-drive screws which are decidedly smaller
than a #1 bit will fit. I thought I even saw a #0 listed in some catalog
when I didn't need one, but haven't been able to find it since. :(
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
stev
In article <6cnidv$d8i$1...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>, ba...@u.arizona.edu says...
>
>In rec.woodworking Johnny Skinner <jski...@i-55.com> wrote:
>It seems this thread pops up every 2 or 3 months. What seems even
>stranger to me is no one seems to know that a relatively recent
>updating of the Robertson screw design called a Quadrex is superior
>to the square drive. It combines a square recess with the
>cross slots of the Phillips. With the quadrex driver there is less chance
>of cam out than the typical square drive, yet they can be removed with a
>phillips bit.
I bought some of these in 90 or 91, so theve been around awhile.
>Can you explain how they're less likely to cam out than a regular
>Robertson screw?
>
> -- Andrew Barss
I'd like to hear that myself. The ones I used didnt work as good
as either a Phillips or a Robertson. Phillips bits cam out bad on
the combo screws, and the square socket is compromised by the slots
cut out for the Phillips. Why is there a need for both Phillips
and a square drive on 1 screw? There is no need to combine both.
Its a sales gimmick.
steve kolacki
--
stev_ix_netcom_com
*******************
Jon Metherd
paull wrote:
> I suppose if the building industry had begun with square heads instead of
> slot head and Phillips, then I probably would have hand tools geared for
> all square head work. Then it would be Phillips head that would be the
> nuisance. Most every thing I deal with now is phillips. I do not have
> many slot head uses today. It was not too long ago, I encountered about
> 50/50 flat head and phillips head.
> I find the home center products are designed to be installed or monted with
> a screw gun and phillips head.
Well, let's watch our history here!
Philips head screws are so fundamentally superior to slotted screws, especially
in power-driven applications, that they have made remarkable progress in
replacing them, despite only gaining momentum during the middle of this century
(someone correct me on this date, but as I understand it, Philips really began
pushing their screw bit design during the late 40s & 50s).
Also, I've found that many DIY shelving products and the like involve Philips
screws for the majority of the work, but will utilize Allen heads for many of
the more important/tougher joints (including a disposable wrench into the kit).
Keith Bohn
Dan is correct. The #0 is used for trim head screws.
McFeely's might have them.
Keith Bohn
b2d
>Interesting. Are you sure there is no #0?
>Dan Lanciani
RBowles96
RIGHT ON!! McFeelys posted here several minths ago about the history of the
square drive. Canadian design, Detroit didn't cooperate, U.S. design is close
but not the same. Phillips by design slips out of the slots at a predetermined
torque. Believe mcFeelys site has the history, or maybe it's still available
vis DEJANEWS. FYI Bondhus makes a ball end screwdriver that drives the screw
at ~15DEG from the axis. Very handy in tight locations! Now if only PC would
contract from them for the Pocket Cutter machine that uses square drive screws
...
In article <888088843.304588@michelob>, "Joe Shlabotnick" <shlab...@usa.net>
writes:
Danny Bolt
For my two cents worth, square drives have caught on. I use them for wood,
drywall and sheet metal and find them much superior to phillips drive. The
only hassle is I now have to carry a screwdriver in my work pants pocket
that fits straight, phillips and square.
Dan Bolt, Des Moines
Uwe Behle
jim evans (jev...@ghg.net) wrote:
: On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:10:58 -0800, LSSBob <fore...@juno.com> wrote:
: >>Jack: I tried some square drive stainless screws about a month ago...an
: >>awkard (sic) job putting up a clothes rack in the barn...used a very
: >>high end square driver bit and still rounded off the bit...(snip)
: I've run probably 15 pounds of 3" #8 square drive screws and I've
: never seen that happen. After over a hundred screws a bit can wear to
: the point it starts caming out, but I've never had a new bit round-off
: on me. What does happen sometimes is the bit deforms the square hole
: in the and screw cams out, if driving is very hard, but a phillips
: would have stripped out long before. I've never quite understood why
: this happens. I guess it's because there is a small taper to the bit
: and, I guess, the hole.
: jim
Why don't you guys use Torx-type screws? I have broken torx bits
without ever damaging the head of the screw. Seems to be the best alter-
native of all for really big screws. Just don't use anything smaller than
a #30 torx.
Greetings,
Uwe
Bill Harnell
If you rounded off the bit, there's not a thing wrong with the screws! Just
buy a quality bit next time you go shopping.
In 30 years of using Robertson screws and drivers I have _never_ rounded a
bit unless I used the wrong size bit (too small). I still use the same set
of Robertson screwdrivers that I bought in 1955.
Can't say that about any of my Phillips drivers. They seem to get replaced
about once per year except for one set of "Snap-OFF" drivers that seems to
endure.
--
Regards,
Bill Harnell [bha...@adss.on.ca]
---------------
LSSBob <fore...@juno.com> wrote in article <34EFCF...@juno.com>...
> Jack: I tried some square drive stainless screws about a month ago...an
> awkard (sic) job putting up a clothes rack in the barn...used a very
> high end square driver bit and still rounded off the bit...barely backed
> out the screws and ended up using sheet rock screws...square drive seems
> to me like one of those things that look super on paper but don't meet
> expectations. Best regards...Bob
>
Bill Harnell
I'm looking at the five drivers that I purchased back in 1955. They have no
"official" designation, except for the screw sizes they are designed to be
used with (others may have). Some of them have been used so much that the
screw designation is worn off.
I rely on the colour of the handles to determine which one should be used
with which screw size.
In order of increasing size, they are:
Handle Colour Bit Size
Orange .050" -
Yellow .070" -
Green .090" - #5,6,7 screws
Red .110" - #8,9,10 "
Black .135" - #12,14 "
Bit Size dimensions were measured at the tip of the driver. True
"Robertson" bits are usually tapered approximately .005" from tip to base.
--
Regards,
Bill Harnell [bha...@adss.on.ca]
--------------------------------
Dan Lanciani <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote in article <138...@news.IPSWITCH>...
Johnny Skinner
Andrew,
Not being a physicist or mechanical engineer, I hesitate to answer why they don't cam out.
As a cabinetmaker of more than 20 years I base it upon my experience. I used phillips until
I discovered the advantages of square drives. I used square drives until I discovered
quadrex screws. The driver has the square drive along with part of the phillips drive. The
bit holds the screw like crazy. Of course, some would think it an advantage that the average
homeowner who doesn't have square drivers can remove the screws with a phillips driver should
it become
necessary.
The drivers come in the box with the screws I buy. Buying them by the thousand they aren't
significantly more expensive than phillips, and much more cost effective considering the
labor
savings over phillips.
Regards,
Johnny
RBowles96
McFeelys specializes in screws.
MikeG
Hello,
Perhaps I can shed a little light on this subject since I am an automotive
fastener account manager. I work for a fastener manufacturer that supplies
screws to automotive and industrial accounts. This whole question comes
down to good old supply and demand. Yes, the Robertson drives work well in
a single feed situation, however, in automated feed systems they are too
difficult to start . . . ie no point. However, a phillips has a point and
tends to start much quicker. A torx has six lobes and therefore the bit
only has to turn 1/6 of a turn to start in the recess.
Since the volume of screws used in the woodworking industry in so small in
comparison. Only specialty houses like Mc Feelys (spelling??) have them
manufactured. Most screws purchased in your local hardware and home
improvement center are imported by the container and packaged in the
USA/Canada. (These are garbage!!!) This is the reason your screws cam out.
In fact, most of these import screws do not even have the correct geometry
in the recess for a phillips. A good quality phillips screw can be driven
without much end load under most situations. Phillips has released a new
version of this and is called an ACRII (for anti cam out resistant) and uses
a ribbed bit and vertical ribs in the recess to reduce cam out. (The bit
works great with regular phillips screws and I highly recommend this)
Finally, I believe that the patent has long since expired on Robertson so I
do not believe that is an issue. However, I will check on this and let you
know if anyone is interested.
mike
jim evans wrote in message <34f096f7...@news.newsguy.com>...
>About 2-3 years ago the shelves of my 3 regular hardware stores
>blossomed with square drive (Robertson) screws. They are wonderful
>for power screw drivers. The bit will stay in the slot under much
>more driving torque. I switched to them immediately, but . . .
>
>Slowly over time the stock has continuously shrunk until today there
>are only a few sizes and a small stock of them, while the price has
>climbed (All, I assume, because of low and decreasing demand).
>
>Why doesn't this major advancment/improvement in screw design catch
>on?
>
Daniel Shafner
Keith Bohn wrote:
>
> Dan is correct. The #0 is used for trim head screws.
>
> McFeely's might have them.
>
> Keith Bohn
> b2d
>
Actually, the trim head screws use a #1. The #0 head is used on the very tiny
4 and the 6 shafts. The color code for the #0 square tip screw driver is
yellow. The #2 is red. The #3 is black. I think this color coding is
universal. The #1 is a combination colors, black and green. Those are for the
7" screw drivers.
The trim head screws are one of the few styles NOT made in America or Canada
where there are actually standards for production quality. Overseas, the
quality varies, so it is up to the integrity and whim of your supplie -- like
the unimpeachable McFeely's -- to grade them and stock them.
I love the square tip. And I mean that sincerely. Never overestimate the
tastes of the screwing public. That's why they are not more popular. It is a
status quo thing, regardless how it may improve the quality of one's life.
Those are my thoughts, anyway.
--
Daniel Shafner
shafner at webspan dot net
If you outlawed rap music, then only
criminals would listen to rap music.
/ `-' ) ,,,
| IU U||||||||[:::]
\_.-.( '''
David J. McBride
Uwe Behle wrote:
> Why don't you guys use Torx-type screws? I have broken torx bits
> without ever damaging the head of the screw. Seems to be the best alter-
> native of all for really big screws. Just don't use anything smaller than
> a #30 torx.
I had to read through about 40 of these square drive posts to finally
get to the one I was looking for.
I first saw the Torx screws at the January '96 NAHB Convention/Show
here in Houston. They were either Canadian or Taiwanese (or both) in
origin. Recently, one of the older home improvement houses here has
begun stocking them. I have been using 3-1/4 and 2 inch #8s with a #25
torx driver in construction (as opposed to woodworking) and have to say
I am highly impressed. They have a shiny gold colored finish I cannot
identify. I have yet to strip one, in pine anyway and have found that
they require very little force, almost sucking themselves in.
--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
David J. McBride
Houston, Texas
Jon Shemitz
paull wrote:
> Square head screws do not come into the handyman work I do. All of the
> screw hardware is Philips head. My only contact with square head screws is
> when working on mobile homes. Because all of my tools for screw work are
> Phillips head, it is irritating to come across a square head. I half to
> break my work routine, go to the van and get my square head tools. Then I
> remove the square heads and replace them with Phillips heads. My next time
> at that particular job site, I or the next person will not have to deal
> with the interruption.
Oh, that's just so sensible. Now that site is part Phillips and part
square. The next person who has to work there won't just have to make a
(gasp!) second trip to the van to get a non-default set of tools,
they'll be continuously changing them.
--
http://www.midnightbeach.com - for info about me, my work, my writing,
and my homeschool resource pages.
Mj.
how do you make a square countersink for these screws??
John Milton
Dan Lanciani (ddl@danlan.*com) wrote:
: [...]
: | There are three sizes of the square socket heads and corresponding bits
: | (oddly enough known as Robertson #1, #2 and #3).
: Interesting. Are you sure there is no #0? I have some RF filters that
: are held together with square-drive screws which are decidedly smaller
: than a #1 bit will fit. I thought I even saw a #0 listed in some catalog
: when I didn't need one, but haven't been able to find it since. :(
: Dan Lanciani
: ddl@danlan.*com
There are at least 4 sizes, and the handles are colour coded as follows
Smallest
Yellow {#4 screws}
Green {#6 screws}
Red {# 8 & #10 screws}
Black {#12 & #14 screws}
Largest
About the only thing in the construction area in Canada where philips is
still the usual choice is drywall, not sure why, perhaps the mud sticks
in them better?
--
ben...@adobe.com
fore...@juno.com wrote:
> Jack: I tried some square drive stainless screws about a month ago...an
> awkard (sic) job putting up a clothes rack in the barn...used a very
> high end square driver bit and still rounded off the bit...barely backed
> out the screws and ended up using sheet rock screws...square drive seems
> to me like one of those things that look super on paper but don't meet
> expectations.
Well, it couldn't have been a "high end" bit if something as soft as stainless
steel bits rounded it off. Stainless steel is much softer than the hardened
steel used in drywall bits.
One other note: Phillips was actually designed *TO* cam out. Yup, it's a
feature, not a bug - or at least it was way back when drills had cords but no
clutches. The theory was that if you needed more torque than could be gotten
out of a Phillips head, then something else was wrong - you didn't drill a
pilot hole for instance. Obviously, while this is good in theory, it just
doesn't fly in the real world, where IME square drive screws are much better.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@adobe.com
Just say "In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they're not."
Opinions are mine alone.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Jack A. Zucker
ben...@adobe.com wrote:
>
> Well, it couldn't have been a "high end" bit if something as soft as stainless
> steel bits rounded it off. Stainless steel is much softer than the hardened
> steel used in drywall bits.
>
I disagree. I can dull my rc62 plane blades on soft-ole-pine. It's not
inconceivable that stainless steel screws could round off hardened steel
spinning at 1200 RPM.
-Jaz
Dave Bischoff
Must have been a poor quality or misfitting bit. I resist using anything
else because the Robertson (square) is so superior to Phillips or flat-head.
In fact if I buy something that comes with Phillips screws (or worse) I'll
just throw them away rather than fight with them if I have the right size
Robertsons in my workshop. The screw stays on the bit allowing one-hand
operation, it doesn't cam out, and they seldom strip the head.
Of course, here they are readily available. Wood screws are almost always
this type - only drywall screws use a Phillips head. We've been using
Robertson screws for close to a hundred years in Canada. Construction
components like electrical boxes/fixtures, furniture, and major appliances
(the familiar North American brands) contain Robertson screws.
I would ask why Torx hasn't caught on. It's like a new improved Robertson.
LSSBob wrote in message <34EFCF...@juno.com>...
>Jack: I tried some square drive stainless screws about a month ago...an
>awkard (sic) job putting up a clothes rack in the barn...used a very
>high end square driver bit and still rounded off the bit...barely backed
>out the screws and ended up using sheet rock screws...square drive seems
>to me like one of those things that look super on paper but don't meet
>expectations. Best regards...Bob
Jim Sokoloff
"Dave Bischoff" <dave.b...@telus.com> writes:
> I would ask why Torx hasn't caught on. It's like a new improved
> Robertson.
I'm not so sure it's a clear "improvement" over square-drive. I find
it hard to believe one could strip a square-drive during installation
unless you were flat-out doing something wrong. (Like driving a screw
into damp PT lumber without pre-drilling, trying to engage the screw
with the bit already rotating at speed, etc.)
Torx, I'm not so sure about the resistance to stripping. Plenty of
trim screws on my old Jeep are Torx (admittedly the smallish sizes)
and they strip easily. (Not at easily as Phillips would in the same
application, but I think square-drive would be more robust.)
---Jim
ben...@adobe.com
Hey Jaz, thanks for reminding me that there are people out there who are not
using common sense, and therefore I should be totally anal in my posts.
It's my fault for assuming that any reasonable person reading my post would
realize that we (the person I responded to and myself) were both talking
about *premature* wear on the square bit from use with stainless steel
screws, in a comparison to wear on a Phillips bit doing similar work with a
similar number of hardened drywall screws. I am sorry for previously not
spelling this all out in detail.
But, hey, it's not my fault that I'd get quoted out of context.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@adobe.com
Just say How many feet of pine can you plane, Jaz, before you get cam out?
Simon White
Dave Bischoff wrote:
>
> Must have been a poor quality or misfitting bit.
I was teaching Sam, who is eight, to put in screws, and he stripped
several Robertsons.
If the bit isn't properly engaged it is easy to do. Of course if you
are an adult or have any feel for tools you can tell whether the screw
is on the bit properly.
Speaking of which one can get Robertson drivers with a square-ball
shaped tip which allow driving at up to about a thirty degree angle.
Possibly the best feature of Robertsons is that the screws stay on the
bit, and vice versa - put the screw in horizontally, once it is started
you can leave the screwdriver sticking straight out and go for coffee,
impress your friends.
> I would ask why Torx hasn't caught on. It's like a new improved Robertson.
I don't like them that much. They're like hex screws - kind of neat,
like any of the other million oddball screwhead designs, but they have
more sides than Robertson and a more finicky design, and I doubt if they
will hold up as well. Also once you get paint in them I doubt it will
be easy to clean out, this typically isn't a problem with Robertsons.
I use Robertsons exclusively, and my American relatives who are at all
interested often get a couple of screwdrivers and several hundred screws
for birthdays etc. Typically you only have to use tham once to be
hooked. Using any really good tool is a pleasure, and until you use
Robertson screws you won't really appreciate that this is true of screws
too.
Simon
Michel Theriault
As a follow-up, for any one who doesn't (yet) know how much better
square drive screws are over phillips, you can order a sampler pack
with a driver from the market section of http://www.storm.ca/~mjt.
(yes, yet another example of shameless promotion - just trying to
spread the word so to speak about the best screw known to woodworkers
- the fact that I'm Canadian has nothing to do with it........)
Michel.
---------------------------------
Michel Theriault
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
m...@storm.ca
Thomas Ryan
Yes, McFeely's has #0 drivers. In response to someone who
talked about color coded screwdrivers, McFeely's sells those
also. I've recently gotten several orders from McFeely's
and the service is great.
Tom Ryan (State College, PA)
In article <6cp48p$g...@newsops.execpc.com> b...@execpc.com (Keith Bohn) writes:
>From: b...@execpc.com (Keith Bohn)
>Subject: Re: Why Don't Square Head Screws Catch On?
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:00:39 GMT
>Dan is correct. The #0 is used for trim head screws.
>McFeely's might have them.
>Keith Bohn
>b2d
>>Interesting. Are you sure there is no #0?
>>Dan Lanciani
Thomas Ryan
I'm a new convert to drill-drivers (just got a DeWalt 12v), and
have had some trouble with the high-torque and high speed available
(sure beats my old Yankee screwdriver). I've had some trouble
going easy on the trigger. The first screw I tried was a Phillips,
and the Philips cross slots were completely lost and the middle
of the screw was a perfectly round conical hollow before I got
the screw half-way in. Since then I've gotten a lot better. But
I have a lot less problem with the square drive. It is important
to get the drill bit solidly into the screw before starting.
I've seen references to using drywall screws, but my understanding
is that these are not as strong as good square-drive wood screws.
Tom Ryan
In article <34f140a2...@news.newsguy.com> jev...@ghg.net (jim evans)
writes:>From: jev...@ghg.net (jim evans)
>Subject: Re: Why Don't Square Head Screws Catch On?
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:34:01 GMT
>On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:10:58 -0800, LSSBob <fore...@juno.com> wrote:
>>>Jack: I tried some square drive stainless screws about a month ago...an
>>>awkard (sic) job putting up a clothes rack in the barn...used a very
>>>high end square driver bit and still rounded off the bit...(snip)
>I've run probably 15 pounds of 3" #8 square drive screws and I've
>never seen that happen. After over a hundred screws a bit can wear to
>the point it starts caming out, but I've never had a new bit round-off
>on me. What does happen sometimes is the bit deforms the square hole
>in the and screw cams out, if driving is very hard, but a phillips
>would have stripped out long before. I've never quite understood why
>this happens. I guess it's because there is a small taper to the bit
>and, I guess, the hole.
>jim
Jack A. Zucker
I think your question has been answered:
1) They are more expensive (in the US)
2) They are harder to find. If you get stuck and need a screw or a
driver on a sunday (at least in the US), you are out of luck.
3) They vary in quality - Many have experienced stripping of the screw
head and the drivers
4) They were developed in outside the US. (That's not my opinion but
many US citizens employ a not-developed-here attitude)
5) They are butt-ugly when exposed
-Jaz
paull
> Torx, I'm not so sure about the resistance to stripping. Plenty of
> trim screws on my old Jeep are Torx (admittedly the smallish sizes)
> and they strip easily. (Not at easily as Phillips would in the same
> application, but I think square-drive would be more robust.)
What is the market for square head screws? By reading posts on this
thread and remebering a similar thread two years ago, I don't feel square
head are in high use. I read that some people use them and like them. I
personally only see square head used heavily in mobile home construction.
What countries use square head screws and what trades use them heavily? I
don't see many square head in my travels within the U.S.A.
Brian Evans
To me, Torx has a problem stripping off the driver bits. Being
Canadian, I use Robertson for woodworking since there's no other easily
available choice, and because they're superior (even though a determined
person can strip them out if working at it). Even drywall screws now
come in robertson. But I like internal Hex best of all - the Allen
type, used in machine screws. You can put very high torque on that type
of drive.
Brian
Jim Sokoloff wrote:
>
> "Dave Bischoff" <dave.b...@telus.com> writes:
>
> > I would ask why Torx hasn't caught on. It's like a new improved
> > Robertson.
>
> I'm not so sure it's a clear "improvement" over square-drive. I find
> it hard to believe one could strip a square-drive during installation
> unless you were flat-out doing something wrong. (Like driving a screw
> into damp PT lumber without pre-drilling, trying to engage the screw
> with the bit already rotating at speed, etc.)
>
> Torx, I'm not so sure about the resistance to stripping. Plenty of
> trim screws on my old Jeep are Torx (admittedly the smallish sizes)
> and they strip easily. (Not at easily as Phillips would in the same
> application, but I think square-drive would be more robust.)
>
> ---Jim
d bethel
Jim Sokoloff wrote:
>
> I'm not so sure it's a clear "improvement" over square-drive. I find
> it hard to believe one could strip a square-drive during installation
> unless you were flat-out doing something wrong. (Like driving a screw
> into damp PT lumber without pre-drilling, trying to engage the screw
> with the bit already rotating at speed, etc.)
> ---Jim/
/
I'm assuming that PT means pressure treated wood here.
Why the heck would you pre-drill that stuff? It's incredibly soft.
D
Chris Lewis
>> I'm not so sure it's a clear "improvement" over square-drive. I find
>> it hard to believe one could strip a square-drive during installation
>> unless you were flat-out doing something wrong. (Like driving a screw
>> into damp PT lumber without pre-drilling, trying to engage the screw
>> with the bit already rotating at speed, etc.)
>> ---Jim/
>I'm assuming that PT means pressure treated wood here.
>Why the heck would you pre-drill that stuff? It's incredibly soft.
Damp PT, as sometimes is the case with any damp softwood, is both soft,
and sticky.
I don't predrill screws except with hardwood or when I need precise depth
control on plywood. I just put up with the fact that I'll torque the
heads right off some small percentage (less than 1%) of square-drive
screws that I drive, and have a pair of vice-grips handy...
The only time I strip square heads is when the screw is in its third or
fourth reuse, is 2 1/2 inches or longer, and wasn't predrilled (meaning, in
softwood lumber). Or, when the screw is in a very awkward position, or
I wasn't paying attention...
--
The rumours of my demise are greatly exaggerated.
Support the anti-Spam amendment. Join at http://www.cauce.org/
Anti-spam resources: http://spam.abuse.net
Thomas J. Zimmerman
In article <34f096f7...@news.newsguy.com>, jev...@ghg.net (jim evans)
wrote:
> About 2-3 years ago the shelves of my 3 regular hardware stores
> blossomed with square drive (Robertson) screws. They are wonderful
> for power screw drivers. The bit will stay in the slot under much
> more driving torque. I switched to them immediately, but . . .
>
> Slowly over time the stock has continuously shrunk until today there
> are only a few sizes and a small stock of them, while the price has
> climbed (All, I assume, because of low and decreasing demand).
>
> Why doesn't this major advancment/improvement in screw design catch
> on?
>
> jim
>
> ___
>
> Have a home upkeep question? Try my help page. It's sort of an
alt.home.repair FAQ.
>
> http://www.ghgcorp.com/jevans/HomeRepair.htm
Hey jim the reason they are not popular is simple they look like crap and
if you do any kind of work where you need a screw head to look good it
does not work A phillips head looks better.
Thomas J. Zimmerman
Randy Cavallin
On 22 Feb 98 06:35:59 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>In article <34EF26...@direct.ca>, witt...@direct.ca (Randy Wittchen) writes:
>
>[...]
>| There are three sizes of the square socket heads and corresponding bits
>| (oddly enough known as Robertson #1, #2 and #3).
>
>Interesting. Are you sure there is no #0? I have some RF filters that
>are held together with square-drive screws which are decidedly smaller
>than a #1 bit will fit. I thought I even saw a #0 listed in some catalog
>when I didn't need one, but haven't been able to find it since. :(
>
> Dan Lanciani
> ddl@danlan.*com
Actually there is a #0 which is the smallest of the bunch. Also of
note is that the screwdriver handles are coloured according to the
size: 0= yellow, 1=green, 2=red and 3=black with #2  being the
most common. This makes looking for the right driver for the job much
easier.
And yes I am from Canada where we love our Robertsons because of
their ability to hang onto the screw in almost any position... the
driver head actually tightens slightly into the screw's hole because
of a slight taper making it very easy to maneuvre screws into odd
angles. If you really want Robertsons, any Canadian hardware store
sells em..
Cold Canuck
Jim Sokoloff
d bethel <dbe...@erinet.com> writes:
> I'm assuming that PT means pressure treated wood here.
Yes.
> Why the heck would you pre-drill that stuff? It's incredibly soft.
Yes, but very hard to drive big screws into. (Seems like it's high
friction, hard to compress the damp wood, or I don't know what).
I was driving some 3.5" #14 phillips (because I can't buy square drive
that big around here) and it was no dice, even with a brand new #3
bit. Predrilled, and they of course went in like butter... (Like you,
I figured it would be unnecessary, so I wasted an hour or so farting
around instead of the 10 minutes it would have taken to predrill in
the first place.)
---Jim
Bill Harnell
Don't forget the orange coloured handle - it's the smallest of the readily
available Robertson drivers <G>!
--
Regards,
Bill Harnell [bha...@adss.on.ca]
--------------------------------
Randy Cavallin <cav...@cyberbeach.net> wrote in article
<34f3bd6d...@news.cyberbeach.net>...
Keith Bohn
Paul,
Problem is you're not looking in the right places. The architectural
woodwork industry has pretty much switched over to square drive screws
but they are usually concealed.
In case your wondering where to go to see architectural woodwork, go
to your Taco Bell and look at the order counter. Then run over to
your bank and look at the teller line. It's all architectural
woodwork, just varying degrees of quality.
Keith Bohn
b2d
Keith Bohn
Thomas,
Huh?
If we are talking about the black Philips head and the black square
drive head screws I'd have to think it's a matter of beauty and the
eye of the beholder.
Keith Bohn
b2d
RBowles96
The Phillips was designed to cam out at a predetermined torque. I've bought
many 100 box packages of sheetrock screws but be careful they are brittle. I'm
going to replenish with deck screws. Bondhus makes a ball end screwdriver for
the Roberston screws allowing driving at ~15 degrees of axis.
RBowles96
Sometimes a change is difficult.
David J. McBride
jim evans wrote:
> . . . but, I found
> if I didn't predrill the screws split the wood immediately above and
> below the screw head. This wasn't a structural problem,it was a
> cosmetic one, forcing me to predrill every screw--a real pain. Does
> anyone know a way to avoid this?
While we are on the subject of square drives, McFeeley's offers several
of their screws with an "auger" style tip. Often, this is sufficient to
prevent spliting as it serves to predrill just before the threads begin
to bite. check out McFeeley's website.
--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
David J. McBride
Houston, Texas
Chris
On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:22:18 GMT, jev...@ghg.net (jim evans) wrote:
>On 25 Feb 1998 16:51:21 GMT, cle...@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
>wrote:
>
>>Damp PT, as sometimes is the case with any damp softwood, is both soft,
>>and sticky.
>>
>>I don't predrill screws except with hardwood or when I need precise depth
>>control on plywood.
>
>I recently built a fence using screws and PT pickets. The wood was
>soft and easy to run the screw into without predrilling but, I found
>if I didn't predrill the screws split the wood immediately above and
>below the screw head. This wasn't a structural problem,it was a
>cosmetic one, forcing me to predrill every screw--a real pain. Does
>anyone know a way to avoid this?
>
>jim
>
>___
>
>Have a home upkeep question? Try my help page. It's sort of an alt.home.repair FAQ.
>
>http://www.ghgcorp.com/jevans/HomeRepair.htm
>
Try using screws with auger points (a small slot ground into the tip).
They drill their way into the wood. Nibs (which are small ridges
under the screw head) help the screw self countersink itself into
the wood. A Robertson (square drive) screw with an auger point
and nibs is the ultimate deck screw.
Chris B.
Larry Meile
What are you trying to avoid, the pre-drillng or the pain?
For what it's worth, I've found the Makita Quad-Drive to be a solution.
The drill holds an adaptor that a double-ended bit fits into. One end
is a drill and countersink and a quick flip exposes the other end which
is a screw bit. Unfortunately I haven't found them with a square-bit,
only Philips.
Larry
Chris Lewis
In article <01bd4286$ce81b5e0$85c6...@bharne.adss.on.ca>,
Bill Harnell <bha...@adss.on.ca> wrote:
>Don't forget the orange coloured handle - it's the smallest of the readily
>available Robertson drivers <G>!
The orange handle is #00.
I have seen a #5 driver (I have no idea whether there's a colour code for
it. It was black). I have also seen square drive screws in furniture
whose head is even larger than #5.
Going by screw guage, #2 is mostly for #8 screws, sometimes #10. #3 is #10,
#12 and #14. #1 is for #6 screws. From what I use, #2 Robertson are
by far the most common. #1 second, and #3 third. I don't remember buying
any #0 or #00 or seeing anything larger than #3 for sale.
Chris Lewis
In article <tar.27....@psu.edu>, Thomas Ryan <t...@psu.edu> wrote:
>I've seen references to using drywall screws, but my understanding
>is that these are not as strong as good square-drive wood screws.
It depends on what you mean by "strong".
Drywall screws are hardened steel. Normal woodscrews aren't.
Drywall screw heads will generally not strip, they'll chew up the driver
real bad, and simply don't have as good a grip as a square head.
With a high quality driver, you can do a pretty reasonable job of driving
hardened phillips. However, _still_ not as good as an ordinary square
drive screws with a reasonable quality driver.
Chris Lewis
In article <6d2h5k$7pa$4...@gte1.gte.net>,
Thomas J. Zimmerman <wc...@gte.net> wrote:
>Hey jim the reason they are not popular is simple they look like crap and
>if you do any kind of work where you need a screw head to look good it
>does not work A phillips head looks better.
If you're building something that relies on the "look" of an ordinary
screw head, you're building crap in the first place.
[Besides, a visible square head looks better than a visible phillips.
Both from the perspective that the phillips head is usually chewed, and
from the fact that a square head implies that the builder knows what they're
doing ;-)]
You can buy "covers" for both square head and phillips if you insist on
leaving the screw heads visible. See the Lee Valley Catalog for instance.
Alan_Browning
In article <6d6ods$4...@bcarh8ab.bnr.ca>, cle...@ferret.ocunix.on.ca says...
>
>In article <6d2h5k$7pa$4...@gte1.gte.net>,
>Thomas J. Zimmerman <wc...@gte.net> wrote:
>
>>Hey jim the reason they are not popular is simple they look like crap and
>>if you do any kind of work where you need a screw head to look good it
>>does not work A phillips head looks better.
>
>If you're building something that relies on the "look" of an ordinary
>screw head, you're building crap in the first place.
Can't say that one type (slotted, phillips, square, hex) looks any better than
any other. The big difference is in what the screw is made of: brass, zinc
plate, black, galvanized.
I get a laugh from this thread because a friend of mine uses the term "square
head" interchangably with "Swede" and "Swedish". He's Swedish himself so please
don't send any messages of indignation my way.
AlB
Ben Polit
Larry Meile wrote:
>
> What are you trying to avoid, the pre-drillng or the pain?
> For what it's worth, I've found the Makita Quad-Drive to be a solution.
> The drill holds an adaptor that a double-ended bit fits into. One end
> is a drill and countersink and a quick flip exposes the other end which
> is a screw bit. Unfortunately I haven't found them with a square-bit,
> only Philips.
> Larry
types are available.
Jim Sokoloff
Larry Meile <meile~spam...@bc.edu> writes:
> What are you trying to avoid, the pre-drillng or the pain?
> For what it's worth, I've found the Makita Quad-Drive to be a solution.
> The drill holds an adaptor that a double-ended bit fits into. One end
> is a drill and countersink and a quick flip exposes the other end which
> is a screw bit. Unfortunately I haven't found them with a square-bit,
> only Philips.
Buying a spare $30 drill is the way I deal with the need to pre-drill
holes and then drive screws into them. Works a charm, is very
efficient, and uses off the shelf, available anywhere bits and
drivers.
---Jim
Doug Miller...see my sig for real e-mail address
In article <6d7ng7$ldl$1...@gte1.gte.net>, bob...@gte.net (Bob Ward) wrote:
+On 27 Feb 1998 18:12:56 GMT, Alan_B...@brown.edu (Alan_Browning)
+wrote:
+
+>
+>Can't say that one type (slotted, phillips, square, hex) looks any better
than
+>any other. The big difference is in what the screw is made of: brass, zinc
+>plate, black, galvanized.
+>
+>I get a laugh from this thread because a friend of mine uses the term
"square
+>head" interchangably with "Swede" and "Swedish". He's Swedish himself so
please
+>don't send any messages of indignation my way.
+>
+>AlB
+
+It could be that these fasteners originated with Sweden... that it
+might not be an ethnic joke after all.
+
Nope -- the inventor was a Canadian.
Michel Gagnon
Kirk Kerekes <red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net> wrote:
> I had the opportunity to make a first-hand bit of research into this
> question today -- I went to Lowe's to buy some exterior woodscrews to
> build some raised-bed garden frames with.
>
> On the shelf were stainless-steel screws with square-drive heads, and
> various grades of galvanized screws with Phillips heads.
>
> I really wanted the stainless steel screws, but I ended up selecting the
> galvanized. Why?
>
> Because the numbskulls that designed the package-labelling for the square
> drive screws did _not_ specify what size of square drive bit was required.
> In order for me to be certain I had the correct bit, I would need to take
> the screws over to the Lowe's tool ghetto, open the box, and try the bits
> out. As the bits are not generally packaged to allow this, even this
> exercise is probably futile.
> .....
For most or all your work, you need two Robertson drives:
- #2 (red handle), for most or all the work (#8 and most #10 screws we
see in Canada)
- #1 (green handle), which will do some small stuff (#4, #5 and #6
screws).
It is also wise to invest in a few #2 screwdrivers and have one with a
tiny stem and a very long one. I round off one #2 screwdriver every
second or third year, while I still have my original Phillips
screwdriver.
In case you wonder, part of our Canadian distinctiveness is that we
don't pre-drill holes except in oak or in very very old wood, or with
very large #12 or #14 screws.
--
Michel Gagnon -- Montréal (Québec, Canada)
Michel...@videotron.ca
ROGER DE VRIES
Kirk wrote:
"Understand,I haved used square drive screws, and like them, but until
the manufacturers get serious about making it easy to use them, they
will remain a niche product."
I have always used "Scorpions" brand square drives- they supply a drive
bit in each box, and more importantly, they have a dril-point- YIPPEE!!
(plus they sell them in 50# boxes as well)
Roger D
RBowles96
I once worked with a Norwegian "kid" that wore a T-shirt with "You can always
tell a Norwegian but you can't tell him much". In retrospect I think it might
be true.
In article <6d6vn8$g...@cocoa.brown.edu>, Alan_B...@brown.edu
(Alan_Browning) writes:
>He's Swedish himself so please don't send any messages of indignation my
>way.
RBowles96
Understand your feeling but I don't recall seeing a Phillips package with size
identification.
Bill A
On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:00:29 -0600, red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net (Kirk
Kerekes) wrote:
>The "bit in every box" approach is an effective one -- it lowers the
>anxiety level about buying square drive screws for the first time.
>
>--
I've become quite enamored with the "Scorpion" brand of square-head
fasteners-and they put a fresh bit in every box.
Bill
Alan Hilton-Nickel
I dunno Jim, they caught on in Canada OK (that's where I'm from), but
I've noticed very few opportunities here in California to use my
Robertson screwdriver set. Possibly it's because with a Philips or
Slotted screwdriver, it's usually possible to use the driver in your
hand without changing tools. Results in a lot of mismatches and stripped
heads. You tend to get much fewer stripped threads when you use
Robertsons (although I *have* done it on more that one occasion!)
Another advantage of Robertson screws is that you can plunk one onto the
end of your driver (electric or otherwise) and it will stay there while
you line it up. Almost one-handed operation!
Alan
jim evans wrote:
>
> About 2-3 years ago the shelves of my 3 regular hardware stores
> blossomed with square drive (Robertson) screws. They are wonderful
> for power screw drivers. The bit will stay in the slot under much
> more driving torque. I switched to them immediately, but . . .
>
> Slowly over time the stock has continuously shrunk until today there
> are only a few sizes and a small stock of them, while the price has
> climbed (All, I assume, because of low and decreasing demand).
>
> Why doesn't this major advancment/improvement in screw design catch
> on?
>
> jim
>
> ___
>
> Have a home upkeep question? Try my help page. It's sort of an alt.home.repair FAQ.
>
> http://www.ghgcorp.com/jevans/HomeRepair.htm
--
Alan T. Hilton-Nickel Electronics Performance Engineer
Phone (408) 260-7742 eMail: hil...@earthlink.net
Bill Harnell
Judging from the corespondence in this thread, the same is also true of
many Americans <wide grin>!
--
Regards,
Bill Harnell [bha...@adss.on.ca]
--------------------------------
RBowles96 <rbow...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980228152...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Bill Harnell
Based on the screw sizes and the screwdrivers that I have in my workshop,
following are screw sizes and the appropriate Robertson screw driver handle
colours:
#2, #3 orange
#4, #5 yellow (Yes, there ARE #5 screws available)
#6, #7 green (and #5,s too <G>)
#8, #9, #10 red (and 9's as well)
#12, #14 black
There probably are #s 0, 1, and 11 available as well - I just don't have
any here.
To the gent who doesn't pre-drill anything but oak - he'd better not try
maple, yellow or white birch that way or he'll have lots of loose screw
heads lying around!
--
Regards,
Bill Harnell [bha...@adss.on.ca]
--------------------------------
jim evans <jev...@ghg.net> wrote in article
<34f88c06...@news.newsguy.com>...
> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:00:29 -0600, red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net (Kirk
> Kerekes) wrote:
>
> >I had the opportunity to make a first-hand bit of research into this
> >question today -- I went to Lowe's to buy some exterior woodscrews to
> >build some raised-bed garden frames with.
> >
> >On the shelf were stainless-steel screws with square-drive heads, and
> >various grades of galvanized screws with Phillips heads.
> >
> >I really wanted the stainless steel screws, but I ended up selecting the
> >galvanized. Why?
> >
> >Because the numbskulls that designed the package-labelling for the
square
> >drive screws did _not_ specify what size of square drive bit was
required.
> >In order for me to be certain I had the correct bit, I would need to
take
> >the screws over to the Lowe's tool ghetto, open the box, and try the
bits
> >out. As the bits are not generally packaged to allow this, even this
> >exercise is probably futile.
>
> I've never seen but one size Robertsons in the hardware departments
> around me. When I go to buy bits there is only one size--the same
> size as the screws, so this has never been a problem. I'd never even
> about this issue 'till I started this thread and learned that smaller
> screws come with smaller size recesses.
>
> Actually, now that you bring it up, I don't remember boxes of phillips
> screws stating whether they're #1, #2 or #3 either. I think this is
> standard by screw size, so I assume it's the same for Robertsons.
RBowles96
Alomost nothing, real truth! Best thing since the pocket.
In article <34F80C35...@earthlink.net>, Alan Hilton-Nickel
claude charbonneau
> Simon
The basic truth is that Robertson screws are a Canadian invention and as
such caused an immediate dis-interest on the part of the americans, I
have boat builder friends as far away as florida begging me to send them
robertson stainless screws because they cant find them. Philips screws
when using a power driver are usually destroyed, fine if you never want
to remove them again.
Montréal, Canada
R.J.
Au contraire;
I think you'd have to get Asia interested in the screwhead.
Most of the ( bulk ) screws available at my hardware stores
come from "Made in Taiwan" boxes.
( actually, the thoughts of investing in
still another set of screwdrivers and screwdriver bits
does sort of turn me off )
I will be happy when everyone discontinues "slotted" screws, though.
B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.... see you on the dark side of the moon
Rick Fox
Jeez, Kirk.
If it's above your budget to buy both a #1 and a #2 bit just in
case, maybe you're in the wrong field.
Kirk Kerekes <red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net> wrote
Bill Harnell
Hi, Kirk;
I really MUST agree with your latest comment regarding snide remarks.
I presume that your implication is that calling folks "numbskulls" (your
initial comments) don't constitute "snide" remarks!!!
--
Regards,
Bill Harnell [bha...@adss.on.ca]
--------------------------------
Kirk Kerekes <red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net> wrote in article
<redgate-0203...@aux165.tulsa.oklahoma.net>...
> In article <01bd45fc$81142c60$6426...@NNTPDA6B.bnr.ca>, "Rick Fox"
> <rick***f...@nortel.com> wrote:
>
> . Jeez, Kirk.
> . If it's above your budget to buy both a #1 and a #2 bit just in
> . case, maybe you're in the wrong field.
> .
>
> Snide remarks tell more about speaker than his subject...
>
>
> . Kirk Kerekes <red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net> wrote
> .
> . > I really wanted the stainless steel screws, but I ended up
> . selecting the
> . > galvanized. Why?
> . >
> . > Because the numbskulls that designed the package-labelling for
> . the square
> . > drive screws did _not_ specify what size of square drive bit was
> . required.
> . > In order for me to be certain I had the correct bit, I would need
> . to take
> . > the screws over to the Lowe's tool ghetto, open the box, and try
> . the bits
> . > out. As the bits are not generally packaged to allow this, even
> . this
> . > exercise is probably futile.
> . >
>
> --
> Kirk & Diane Kerekes / Red Gate Ranch -- <red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net>
> | The picture atop of this message, if present, was
> | made by "Saving Face" for the Macintosh, available at:
> | http://www.santafe.edu/~smfr/utils.html
>
Richy
Kirk Kerekes <red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net> wrote in article
<redgate-0303...@aux146.tulsa.oklahoma.net>...
> The "folks" referred to were the unspecified individuals responsible for
> the inexcusable lack of essential information (driver size requirements)
Kirk, P-lease. Inexcusable? Anyone familiar at all with square drives can
glance at a screw and know what size it is. Most are #2, anyway. I don't
recall most drywall screw packages saying what size bit they require -
you're expected to know.
As for being too cheap to buy two bits - if you're at ALL interested in
square drives, buy a #1 and #2 and be done with it. Sheesh!
Rich
Just say no name-calling involved
Thomas Gauldin
I've sure become a believer in using good Robertson head screws. A few
years back, I did away with all the drywall and wood screws in my shop and
drove to Lynchburg VA one afternoon. There, I went to McFeeley's and bought
a couple hundred dollars of Robertson head screws and a handful of driver
bits.
I've never regretted the decision.
The two principle driver sizes are the small and medium ones. I can glance
at a screw and tell which I need. The screws cling to the drive like it was
magnetized, due to the close tolerance. They seldom, if ever, cam out and
the high quality screws McFeeley's sells are strong. One of the first
things I learned was to NOT HOLD the darn screw threads with my fingers,
since I was always slicing myself on the sharp threads.
Another advantage of the driver is that a quick touch to a grinding wheel
gives you a virtually new driver, since its just a square piece of metal.
Tom Gauldin, Raleigh NC
-NetMeeting ils.four11.com, Live Birdfeeder Action
ICQ 7022136 fax (919) 676-1404
ftp://ftp.mindspring.com/pub/users/scoundrl/gauldin1.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Here's to the land of the Longleaf Pine,
The Summerland, where the sun doth shine,
Where the weak grow strong, and the strong grow great,
Here's to Downhome, the Old North State.
Bill Harnell
Hi, again;
Kirk Kerekes <red...@tulsa.oklahoma.net> wrote in article
<redgate-0303...@aux146.tulsa.oklahoma.net>...
> In article <01bd4666$1ac3f3e0$85c6...@bharne.adss.on.ca>, "Bill Harnell"
> <bha...@adss.on.ca> wrote:
>
> . Hi, Kirk;
> .
> . I really MUST agree with your latest comment regarding snide remarks.
> .
> . I presume that your implication is that calling folks "numbskulls"
(your
> . initial comments) don't constitute "snide" remarks!!!
>
> The "folks" referred to were the unspecified individuals responsible for
> the inexcusable lack of essential information (driver size requirements)
> on a box of square-drive screws. They were not being addressed directly,
The sizes are quite standard and probably, for that reason, were not
printed on the screw boxes. Same is true of slotted, Philipps, Torx,
clutch, Cluthé, Allen, Bristo and many other screw types althought some are
more "forgiving" than others.
> and are not (as far as I know) a party to this discussion. Note that we
> are discussing their paid job performance here, not their personal life
or
> behavior.
>
> I feel that there is a substantial difference between:
>
> 1) referring to nameless, faceless persons who have perpetuated
> thoughtless acts of professional nitwititude as "numbskulls" and --
>
> 2) making snide and dismissive remarks about individuals who are part of
> this conversation.
>
> That said, I would agree that namecalling rarely rebounds to anyone's
credit.
'Nuff said <G>!
Jim Sokoloff
"Thomas Gauldin" <scou...@mindspring.com> writes:
> The two principle driver sizes are the small and medium ones. I can glance
> at a screw and tell which I need. The screws cling to the drive like it was
> magnetized, due to the close tolerance.
[snip]
> Another advantage of the driver is that a quick touch to a grinding wheel
> gives you a virtually new driver, since its just a square piece of metal.
You must have a tighter tolerance grinding wheel than mine, or I
missed a step along the amateur machinist path. :-)
---Jim
Thomas Gauldin
Jim Sokoloff wrote in message ...
You don't understand. The bit itself is like square bar stock. The bar
stock sticks down into the screw's head. . . but is LONGER than the head is
deep. When it eventually rounds off from the occasional camming action,
touching the END of the driver to the wheel shortens it. The shortening
action removes much of the rounded off part, leaving the higher up "square"
part of the bar stock exposed. Therefore, you get a good grip on the next
screw again.
This cannot be done on a Phillips-type driver, since it has a tapered point.
The taper of the driver matches the internal taper of the screw head. By
removing part of the end of a Phillips driver, it still will sit no deeper
in the next screw you use- thus it will still not grip as well as a new one
with full contact.
Tom Gauldin, Raleigh NC
-NetMeeting ils.four11.com, Live Birdfeeder Action
ICQ 7022136 fax (919) 676-1404
ftp://ftp.mindspring.com/pub/users/scoundrl/gauldin1.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Here's to the land of the Longleaf Pine,
The Summerland, where the sun doth shine,
Where the weak grow strong, and the strong grow great,
Here's to Downhome, the Old North State.
>
>---Jim