What amp rating/wire rating to add dedicated circuit for fridge?
Brad and Julie Vaughn
to use in the breaker box and what size of wire to run to the outlet.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Mike Simpson
Mike Simpson
Brad and Julie Vaughn <jfa...@socket.net> wrote in message
news:s046jj...@corp.supernews.com...
KPH
CharlieDIY
>I am pretty sure that a 15 A breaker needs a #14 wire not a #12.
>
Makes no difference. Small appliance circuits need to be 20 amp, thus require
a 12 gauge wire, not 14.
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
>
>I am moving my Fridge to a different wall. I was wondering what size breaker
>to use in the breaker box and what size of wire to run to the outlet.
>Thanks for any suggestions.
Check with your local electrical codes to be sure, but here in Canada,
all branch circuits that 5-15R receptacles are to be protected by
a 15A breaker.
Also, about the circuit itself, the Ontario Hydro Electrical Safety Code
(comprises the Canadian Electrical Code) says in section 26-704(2):
Each receptacle installed for a refrigerator shall be
supplied by a branch circuit that does not supply any
other outlets, except a recessed clock receptacle
intended for use with an electric clock.
You used to be able to power a range hood on the same circuit, but
not any more (since 1994).
--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "The greatest gift interracial couples
DAXaCK associates | and families bestow on society is the
Scarborough, Ontario, Canada | reality of equality."
http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | -- Candace Mills, Magazine Publisher
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Harry Hall
<jfa...@socket.net> wrote:
>I am moving my Fridge to a different wall. I was wondering what size breaker
>to use in the breaker box and what size of wire to run to the outlet.
>Thanks for any suggestions.
>
=======
Unless you have some ungodly large commercial refrigeration
unit, 15 amp breaker and 14ga wire is fine. I have a new 22 cu ft
unit with all the bells and whistles - tag says 6 amp max draw.
OTOH, if you think anything else may be on that circuit, can't
hurt to make it: 20a breaker and 12ga wire. Just a 'coupla bucks
more. =;-0
Harry
Mike Simpson
breaker larger than a 15amp, a 15 protecting a circuit wired with #12 is
just fine.
Come to think of it...why on earth would anyone wire outlets using #14
anyway? My jurisdiction *requires* all general purpose circuits to be
wired using #12, and are considering changing code to require #12 in all
lighting as well!!
Mike Simpson
KPH <k...@integrityonline.com> wrote in message news:3802...@205.238.18.7...
Cross Eyes
>
> I am pretty sure that a 15 A breaker needs a #14 wire not a #12.
a 15 amp breaker is code?
Back to the books, son..
CharlieDIY
>Come to think of it...why on earth would anyone wire outlets using #14
>anyway? My jurisdiction *requires* all general purpose circuits to be
>wired using #12, and are considering changing code to require #12 in all
>lighting as well!!
Has anyone given a reason for the lighting circuits? Care to figure out how
many 40 watt fluorescent bulbs can run on a 15 ampere circuit, at 110 volts?
The answer is more than 40. While #14 wire is cheaper than 12, and is easier
to work, I cannot see the beginnings of sense in 20 amp circuits for lighting.
Receptacles, yes, in this power crazy age, but for lights?
Charlie Self
Word Worker
CharlieDIY
>Unless you have some ungodly large commercial refrigeration
>unit, 15 amp breaker and 14ga wire is fine. I have a new 22 cu ft
>unit with all the bells and whistles - tag says 6 amp max draw.
> OTOH, if you think anything else may be on that circuit, can't
>hurt to make it: 20a breaker and 12ga wire. Just a 'coupla bucks
>more.
You're okay at the end about the size, if not adding other items to the
circuit, but I'm almost dead certain this is a small appliance circuit, and, as
such, needs a 20 amp breaker, thus 12 gauge wire.
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
>
>I am pretty sure that a 15 A breaker needs a #14 wire not a #12.
A circuit protected for 15A must have a *minimum* wire size of #14.
There's nothing wrong with using #12, since it is larger - in fact
many commercial installations do not use wire under #12.
Hey! You could use #6 if you like spending money - though that
size wire won't fit on the screw terminals of your receptacles, so you
would have to use pigtail leads to attach the #6 wire to the receptacles,
but these would have to be at least #14.
Bennet K. Langlotz
The advantages of using 12AWG at a minimum for all circuits:
One can add light fixtures later, and increase the breaker to 20A,
without needing another branch, or a larger panel if spaces are short.
Less wire used if there are long runs from the panel to the room
(assumes one designs for fewer branches.)
Lower voltage drop (probably pays for the cost difference in wire
sizes.)
One need stock only one wire size, a likely cost saver for the
homeowner
--
Bennet K. Langlotz
ne...@langlotz.com
Bennet K. Langlotz
>KPH wrote:
>>
>> I am pretty sure that a 15 A breaker needs a #14 wire not a #12.
>
>You are saying that running a refrigerator compressor thru a #14 wire on
>a 15 amp breaker is code?
>Back to the books, son..
Sir, you seem to be new to this group. We tend to have a very
friendly and open discourse here, with particular sensitivity to those
who might be in error. If you know more than the poster, you might
put yourself in the role of a kind teacher. Your message seems to
demean the poster, and does not offer any information to assist the
ignorant.
We have developed a culture here, and I thought you might want to know
about it. Lots of very positive teaching and learning goes on, in an
atmosphere as friendly as your favorite home-town hardware store or
lumberyard.
to...@over.the.rainbow.com
few things
In the US national electric code the dedicated refrigeration outlet
can be 15 or 20 a. It is not one of the 2 required 'small appliance"
circuits in the kitchen. As was stated you can use #12 copper on a 15
a circuit but not the other way around (#14 on a 20). The NEMA 5-15
15a receptacle can be used on a 20a circuit if there is more than one
"outlet" on that circuit. The NEMA 20 receptacle as used in the US
will accept a 15 a (standard plug).
One unmentioned reason contractors use #14 and 15a curcuits is "box
fill". The regular 3 x 2 x 2.3/4" (14 cu/in) box is not big enough
for a #12 Romex in and out with a device. You notice the new plastic
boxes are 16 cu/in. Greg
hitman
>"thought now" that you quoted...I don't think that I want to know. Quite
>honestly, your statement that "most uses for general circuits are lamps that
>use #18 wire" just doesn't make any sense IMHO.
What size wire does the TV, VCR, CD player, table lamp, clock,
computer, etc. etc. use? What size wire is used for the a paddle fan
or its light. How about the wires going to the ballast in the
fluorescent?
They're not designed to have 20A running thru them.
The opinion in at least the counties around me is to use 15A circuits
but exceed code by putting in more outlets.
IMHO this makes a lot more sense.
>
>My last word...simply put, the NEC provides a *minimum* level of safety,
>with virtually no regard to good "design", ease of use, or future
>expandibility. If meeting code is sufficient for you then so be it...to me
>that's simply designing "downhill". Thankfully, there are *many*
>professionals in the electrical industry who do strive to exceed code within
>the confines of budget restraints.
I hope that what they consider exceeding code is still safe.
Why not exceed code with 30A circuit? Or 40A? When is exceeding code
actually worse?
>There are also enlightened townships
>who constantly strive to change *many* to *all*.
30A or 40A?
>
>Mike Simpson
>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> The more you own the more you have to fix!
>> Lin and Ron
>> Sebastian Fl, formerly NJ
>> (Maplewood, Neptune, Bricktown[Laurelton], Toms River)
>>
>> to E-Mail remove GARBAGEMAIL from address
>>
>>
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>
__________________________________________
The more you own the more you have to fix!
Lin and Ron
Sebastian Fl, formerly NJ
(Maplewood, Neptune, Bricktown[Laurelton], Toms River)
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hitman
Langlotz) wrote:
>rspicerGA...@spacey.net (hitman) wrote:
>
>>Many have changed their approach to this 15A vs. 20 A for general
>>circuits. The thought now, which makes sense, is that since most uses
>>for general circuits are lamps that use #18 wire it isn't reasonable
>>to put them on a 20A breaker.
>
>By this logic, you wouldn't use a 15A breaker either.
You misunderstood. Not talking about how much a light draws but if
there is a fault in the lamp causing it to draw more than its cord can
handle but less than the 20A breaker, you've got a serious problem
>
>Keep in mind that a lamp can't draw any more current than the bulb you
>put in it (~250W ~<3A.) I would be curious to hear of a reasonable
>scenario where a lamp draws more than 15A but less than 20A.
That would also be quite a bulb.
>--
>Bennet K. Langlotz
>ne...@langlotz.com
__________________________________________
Mike Simpson
be running through any of the examples that you quote??? I just fail to
see what point you're trying to make here....sorry!!! :-(
Mike Simpson
hitman <rspicerGA...@spacey.net> wrote in message
news:380be16a...@news.spacey.net...
> >I don't know who the "many" are that you refer to are, and based on the
> >"thought now" that you quoted...I don't think that I want to know.
Quite
> >honestly, your statement that "most uses for general circuits are lamps
that
> >use #18 wire" just doesn't make any sense IMHO.
> What size wire does the TV, VCR, CD player, table lamp, clock,
> computer, etc. etc. use? What size wire is used for the a paddle fan
> or its light. How about the wires going to the ballast in the
> fluorescent?
> They're not designed to have 20A running thru them.
> The opinion in at least the counties around me is to use 15A circuits
> but exceed code by putting in more outlets.
> IMHO this makes a lot more sense.
> >
> >My last word...simply put, the NEC provides a *minimum* level of safety,
> >with virtually no regard to good "design", ease of use, or future
> >expandibility. If meeting code is sufficient for you then so be it...to
me
> >that's simply designing "downhill". Thankfully, there are *many*
> >professionals in the electrical industry who do strive to exceed code
within
> >the confines of budget restraints.
> I hope that what they consider exceeding code is still safe.
> Why not exceed code with 30A circuit? Or 40A? When is exceeding code
> actually worse?
> >There are also enlightened townships
> >who constantly strive to change *many* to *all*.
> 30A or 40A?
>
> >
> >Mike Simpson
> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
to...@over.the.rainbow.com
circuits ignores the difference between overcurrent protection and
short circuit protection. A listed appliance or fixture (the U/L tag)
is wired to handle the full load current the device can pull when
running. In a case of lamps this is limited by the watt rating and
number of sockets. Motor driven appliances will also have internal
overload protection. The line cord will handle the calculated full
load current plus a safety factor. 18 Ga will still be enough to
handle the momentary current of a direct short though until the
overcurrent device in the panel trips. When you are dealing with
branch circuit wiring the installer has no clue what will be plugged
in so itr must be designed with a full load current rating of the
overcurrent device plus a generous safety factor. Technically #14
could handle 20 amps but the "dagger note" at the bottom of table
310-16 limits it to 15 because they know there are people who will
load a circuit to the max and run it that way indefinately. Same with
#12 @ 20 and #10 @ 30. These are the circuit sizes that typically end
at receptacles. Greg
John Coggins
There's a well-defined formula for calculating the time that a wire
of a certain size (circular mils) and insulation rating can
tolerate a given short circuit current. It's a pretty ugly formula:
squares and logs and conversions to Kelvin temp.
But here's a sample result: "A 1/0 copper cable rated for T1 = 90 C
has a maximum short circuit temperature of T2 = 250 C. If the
protective device operates in t = 1 cycle (0.0167 seconds at 60
Hertz), the maximum allowable short circuit current is 32,700 amps.
Larger short circuit currents or slower protective devices would
require larger cables."
hz...@hotmail.com
--{ BuilderNews, http://www.buildernews.com/newsgroups/news }--
Providing Quality Web Based News Group Access to Leading
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hz...@hotmail.com
I assume,it is a regular household fridge.
Use 15A breaker, 14/2 wires. Have a cold beer & a sefe sleep.
Zoltan
rode...@gmail.com
hub...@ccanoemail.ca
>So, if I am reading correctly, it is ok to run 14/2 wire for outlet for refrigerator
>if that outlet is on its own breaker.
.. is different from mine .. here in ButtSnuck
Flatsuania .. ?
Why not ask your local experts ?
... just a thought.
John T.
Snag
> So, if I am reading correctly, it is ok to run 14/2 wire for outlet for refrigerator if that outlet is on its own breaker.
>
than 15 amp breaker . 12 gauge is OK for 20 amps .
--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crotchety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !
Ed Pawlowski
> So, if I am reading correctly, it is ok to run 14/2 wire for outlet for refrigerator if that outlet is on its own breaker.
>
be good. My 2 year old 28 cu. ft. refrig call for just 6.0A. Check the
rating on yours to be sure.
Rod Speed
"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.xxx> wrote in message
news:hJUzG.139680$Us2....@fx07.iad...
fridge. It should be done so any fridge will work fine.
Ralph Mowery
> On 5/28/2020 2:02 PM, rode...@gmail.com wrote:
> > So, if I am reading correctly, it is ok to run 14/2 wire for outlet for refrigerator if that outlet is on its own breaker.
> >
>
> 12/2 is a better choice . If you go with 14 ga wire , use no larger
> than 15 amp breaker . 12 gauge is OK for 20 amps .
> --
>
>
refrigerators draw now electrically you could probably run # 18 wire if
not too far. I am sure the code would have no less than # 14 and a 15
amp breaker.
Those newer refrigerators are not like the old days when they started up
and drew so much current the TV set picture would shrink down in size
for a few seconds.
However if I were doing it, I probably would go with # 12 unless there
was some other code to meet.
Peeler
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:
<FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>
--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: <XnsA97071CF43...@85.214.115.223>
Clare Snyder
are less than about 50 feet from the breaker #14 will work. HOWEVER -
I would suggest running #12, allowing you to run a 20 amp breaker on
the OFF chance that you might someday want to run a refrigerator that
requires more than 15 amps, or particularly if you have a longish wire
run - to avoid or at least minimize voltage drop
Hawk
The cost of 12 gauge wire and 20 amp breaker is minor compared to a 14
and 15 amp. Go with the 12/20 in cases of upgrades in the future.
Bob F
> So, if I am reading correctly, it is ok to run 14/2 wire for outlet for refrigerator if that outlet is on its own breaker.
>
the 12.
When I replaced the #14 wire with a #12, I was amazed how much the 1500
watt heater on the circuit increased it's heat output.
I never buy #14 wire. The price difference in negligible.
trader_4
Next!
trader_4
15A, 14g meets code and works for me.
Dean Hoffman
> So, if I am reading correctly, it is ok to run 14/2 wire for outlet for refrigerator if that outlet is on its own breaker.
>
amp. That would mean 12/2 with ground. Also add a gfci breaker or
outlet if the frig outlet is within 6 feet of a sink.
https://www.hunker.com/13722988/kitchen-electrical-codes-what-you-need-to-know
Ed Pawlowski
don't need gfci. You don't want it tripped while you are away for a
couple of days with a freezer full of steaks.
Clare Snyder
From
https://www.esgroundingsolutions.com/nec-now-requires-gfci%E2%80%99s-on-refrigerators-is-there-really-a-technical-reason-to-put-a-gfci-on-a-refrigerator/
The GFCI requirements for refrigerators are governed primarily under
NEC Article 210.8 and 210.52, and had little to no change from the
2008 version of the code to the 2011 version. Here is the breakdown
governing refrigerators and GFCI protection (according to the NEC 2011
Handbook):
•All commercial buildings/kitchens are required to have GFCI for
refrigerators. See NEC 210.8(B)(2).
•In a Dwelling Unit (house or apartment) refrigerators located inside
the kitchen do NOT have to have a GFCI. See 210.8(A)(6), Exhibit
210.13, 210.52(B)(1), 210.52(B)(2), 210.52(B)(3), and Exhibit 210.28.
If the circuit feeding the refrigerator outlet is branched to any
other outlet, it must be a 20-A circuit. If the circuit feeding the
refrigerator outlet is a dedicated individual circuit, than it can be
either 15-A or 20-A.
•In a garage or an unfinished basement of a Dwelling unit, the
refrigerator must have a GFCI circuit. In fact ALL outlets must be
GFCI in garages and unfinished basements. See 210.8(A)(2) and Exhibit
210.10.
It is important to note that while the text of the code clearly
mandates GFCI protection for all receptacle outlets in garages and
unfinished basements, the Exhibits use the word “Freezer” when showing
GFCI protection (see exhibits 210.10 and 210.12). This has been the
source of confusion and has led some to believe that refrigerators are
exempt from the GFCI requirement, and that freezers require it. E&S
Grounding Solutions does not interpret the code this way.
Our understanding of the NEC is that both freezers and refrigerators
must have GFCI protection in every situation other than in a kitchen
of a dwelling unit. This is almost certainly a grandfathered hold out
and will not stay in the code for much longer. The bottom line is that
we should all prepare for the day when EVERY receptacle outlet is not
only GFCI, but AFCI (Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter) as well.
Now what is NOT specifically addressed is a refrigerator or freezer
in finished soace OTHER than a kitchen - - -
Jim Joyce
wrote:
the top third was a giant STOP sign. The text underneath warned me that all
of the receptacles in the garage are protected by GFCI, so if I want to
place a refrigerator or freezer in the garage I'll need to have an
electrician install a dedicated non-GFCI receptacle. If I fail to do that,
the builder will not assume any liability for spoiled food.
And now I see that refrigerators and freezers are supposed to be GFCI? :)
> Now what is NOT specifically addressed is a refrigerator or freezer
>in finished soace OTHER than a kitchen - - -
trader_4
nec 210.52(B)(1)
Exception No. 2: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, a receptacle outlet to serve a specific appliance shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
trader_4
exactly what is plugged into a garage receptacle? Every home I've owned,
they were simply receptacles and over the years, you plugged in whatever
you wanted at the time.
Scott Lurndal
>On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 8:58:36 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>> On 5/28/20 2:02 PM, rode...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > So, if I am reading correctly, it is ok to run 14/2 wire for outlet for refrigerator if that outlet is on its own breaker.
>> >
>> The latest article I found on a short search said 120 volts, 20
>> amp. That would mean 12/2 with ground. Also add a gfci breaker or
>> outlet if the frig outlet is within 6 feet of a sink.
>>
>> https://www.hunker.com/13722988/kitchen-electrical-codes-what-you-need-to-know
>
>Unfortnuately, it's wrong.
>
>nec 210.52(B)(1)
>
>Exception No. 2: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, a receptacle
>outlet to serve a specific appliance shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual
>branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
>
'If the circuit feeding the refrigerator outlet is a dedicated
individual circuit, than it can be either 15-A or 20-A.'
FromTheRafters
Clare Snyder
residence does not need to be on a GFCI. In a commercial space it must
be on a GFCI and in unfinish space it must be on a gfci.
When I had my electrical system inspected (esa-safe inspection with
service change and for insurance purposes) the circuit my refrigerator
is on and the circuit my freezer is on (in the basement) both passed -
the fridge is not on GFCI but the other outlets on the circuit
haveGFCI outlets - same for the freezer (finished basement). Pretty
well the rest of the house is on either AFCI or GFCI with the
exception of the furnace and the central vac and the 240 volt loads
(range, drier, compressor, and AC)
TimR
What I notice is that the OP (21 years ago) was moving a refrigerator to another wall. Is it going to stay this time? Or move again? I'd want whatever circuit I put in be ready for the next use.
Secondly, he's doing it himself. DIYers tend to use 14 because 12 is stiffer and a bit harder if you're working alone. I've always used 12 myself but I've occasionally said some bad words during a project.
bruce2...@gmail.com
If the house had a 60 amp breaker you'd have still more possibilities. Heck, some people even start by building an all steel frame. Imagine replacing a house's all wooden frame with all steel.
gfre...@aol.com
of them.
>
>> Now what is NOT specifically addressed is a refrigerator or freezer
>>in finished soace OTHER than a kitchen - - -
>
>I have a mini fridge in my office...not on a GFCI receptacle.
they are required to be AFCI (30ma ground fault protection) so that
bad compressor that trips the GFCI will trip an AFCI.
A properly working fridge will not trip a GFCI. The problem is most
garage fridges are someone else's hand me down.
gfre...@aol.com
210.52, a receptacle outlet to serve a specific appliance shall be
permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15
amperes or greater."
The 2020 got stricter and all receptacles in the controlled area s are
to be GFCI whether they are 120 or 240, and amp rating. That is the
range and the dryer if you weren't paying attention along with the
compressor and welder in the garage.
trader_4
I see it clearly stating:
A number of common kitchen appliances must also be on dedicated circuits, which means they don't share the circuit with any other appliances, outlets or lights. These appliances include:
Refrigerator ( 120V/20A )
Garbage disposal ( 120V/15A )
Dishwasher ( 120V/15A )
Electric range ( 240V/50A )
That's wrong. As you acknowledge, a fridge is allowed on a 15A circuit.
And that's not all that's wrong. AFAIK, NEC doesn't require the garbage
disposal or dishwasher to be on separate circuits either, often they are
on one.
gfre...@aol.com
total load can't exceed the circuit capacity and continuous loads (or
the largest motor load) have to be computed at 125% of nameplate
rating. Most dishwashers and garbage disposals could fit within that
on a 20 circuit. I also see them use a multiwire circuit with a split
duplex for that combo if the inspector will let them but usually they
say it is too close to the sink, even if it is in the cabinet so it
has to be GFCI. That generally means a 1900 box with 2 GFCI
receptacles in it on that multiwire.
Clare Snyder
install with the service change and inspection - 2 years ago so not
2020 code. -and each of those breakers for my panel is $300 .
That means $1500 worth of breakers - - - - instead of $300 for normal
breakers - so an extra $1200. Not sure how they work on 240 when there
is no neutral current, and on the range there CAN be neutral current
and there CAN be unballanced current between the 2 legs - the
circuitry and logic gets pretty complicated to handle all the
permutations
gfre...@aol.com
wrote:
are expensive.
What will trigger this upgrade will depend on the AHJ but I assume any
new circuit or panel upgrade would. Beyond that it is a local
decision.