Oxygen concentrator sound level

[Gordon Shumway]

We now have an oxygen concentrator in our house and it is noisy. What have any of you seen or done to reduce the sound output
from one of these machines?

www.invacare.com/Platinum_10_Concentrator

Thanks.

[Frank]

Can't see page. Is this US? Thought machines were quieter.

[Taxed and Spent]

That can't be! "Quiet oxygen concentrator includes Invacare HomeFill
system port for inventory flexibility."

http://www.invacare.com/cgi-bin/imhqprd/inv_catalog/prod_cat_detail.jsp?s=0&prodID=IRC10LXO2&catOID=-536890256


I have no idea - did the company say that your unit is "quiet"?

[bob_villain]

We had these in a nursing facility, ask kindly for another unit. They become more noisy after they have been worked-on and their aging process. New ones are definitely quieter. I'm assuming this is a rental unit?
If you bought it, you can put a longer tube/extension, and put it in another room. You shouldn't enclose it.

[Gordon Shumway]

Yes it's US. Use the link that Taxed and Spent posted -- his works.

They claim to be quiet but it's relative. It is quieter than rolling along beside an 18 wheeler at 60 MPH but it's difficult
to get to sleep with it running, even in when it's in a different room.

[Frank]

I see site from your url. Says quiet and another site says 58 dB which
may be about normal speaking voice level or a refrigerator running.
Maybe not real noisy but could be a problem when sleeping. I'd probably
locate the unit outside the bed room or use ear plugs.

Oxygen output can be more than most people need and I believe there are
portable battery operated units that are much smaller.

Many years ago before these units were available I almost had to use
oxygen at home but fortunately didn't. It could be a pain with tanks
and liquid delivered to your house and lines running all over the house.

[Gordon Shumway]

The rep that delivered it (we don't own it we rent it) said "You'll get used to it." He said the one the VA uses is "a little
quieter, but not much." The nearest VA is about 60 miles away and for "a little quieter" I'm reluctant to get involved with
the VA.

[Gordon Shumway]

Yes, it's a rental unit. It has a 50 foot hose on it and it's down the hall and in the family room about 40 feet away, but
it's a lot noisier than a mouse pissin' on a blotter. :-(

[bob_villain]

On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 6:21:51 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:

I will assume that you choose not to engage...or you have me blocked. You're not my favorite either, but I have worked on these at a nursing home. Maintenance for 16 yrs.

[bob_villain]

They have a compressor in them and can become noisy...I would ask for another unit, preferably, newer.

[Ed Pawlowski]

IMO, the Invacare units are not a quiet as some others, especially the
10 liter model. . None are as quiet as a refrigerator if that is what
you are expecting.

Note also, that unit is capable of putting out 10 lpm. Most patients
are on 2 lpm and rare cases to 4 lpm. If you actually need 10 liters
you are in serious trouble.

Check with your supplier and see if they have other units that are less
capacity, but quieter. I like AirSep or Devilbiss.

As for location, if you have a spare room where you can close the door
it makes a big difference. It should be well ventilated though, at
least in summer an open window.

If you are in an area of low humidity you should have a humidifier
bottle too. You fill it with distilled water and the flow bubbles
through it.

If you go out a lot with oxygen ask for a conserver unit and home fill
system. A standard D tank is heavy and will last about 4 hours on 2lpm.
With a conserver system you can get a smaller 3000psi tank that will
last about 8 hours. Easier to handle in a carry case with a strap.
They are expensive so many suppliers don't want to give them to you.

The only true quiet systems use liquid oxygen. They are rare these days
as the tank has to be filled every 8 days or so, but they are dead quiet.

[bob_villain]

Ed is up to date, we occasionally would accept folks requiring more than 10lpm and would need 2 machines with a Y connection. Not good!

[Gordon Shumway]

I originally had a 5 liter unit, with about 29,000 hours, and the Homefill II companion. When I complained about the lengthy
time required to fill the tanks I was given the 10 liter unit that had about 1500 hours on the clock. It was noticeably
quieter but still not what I would classify as quiet.

I was told the Homefill II system required a minimum of 2 LPM to fill the tanks and could use up to 3 LPM. With my need of 3
LPM that put the Homefill II system getting only the minimum for oxygen.

I was hoping there was some sort of sound absorbing material that could be placed near the unit, not encapsulating it, to
help reduce the noise.

[Gordon Shumway]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 16:47:57 -0700 (PDT), bob_villain <pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 6:21:51 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>
>I will assume that you choose not to engage...or you have me blocked. You're not my favorite either, but I have worked on these at a nursing home. Maintenance for 16 yrs.

Neither. See my response to one of your other posts in this thread.

[bob_villain]

Alf, is this a sleeping issue? Have you tried 3M ear plugs?

[Gordon Shumway]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 21:11:06 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

>On 7/22/2016 6:32 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>> We now have an oxygen concentrator in our house and it is noisy. What have any of you seen or done to reduce the sound output
>> from one of these machines?
>>
>> www.invacare.com/Platinum_10_Concentrator
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
>
>IMO, the Invacare units are not a quiet as some others, especially the
>10 liter model. . None are as quiet as a refrigerator if that is what
>you are expecting.

I had never seen one of these units before and was surprised at their noise.

>Note also, that unit is capable of putting out 10 lpm. Most patients
>are on 2 lpm and rare cases to 4 lpm. If you actually need 10 liters
>you are in serious trouble.

I'm at 3 LPM.

>Check with your supplier and see if they have other units that are less
>capacity, but quieter. I like AirSep or Devilbiss.

Thanks for that info.

>As for location, if you have a spare room where you can close the door
>it makes a big difference. It should be well ventilated though, at
>least in summer an open window.

It's as far from the bedroom that the 50 foot hose allows.

>If you are in an area of low humidity you should have a humidifier
>bottle too. You fill it with distilled water and the flow bubbles
>through it.

Illinois is not known for low humidity in the summer.

>If you go out a lot with oxygen ask for a conserver unit and home fill
>system. A standard D tank is heavy and will last about 4 hours on 2lpm.
> With a conserver system you can get a smaller 3000psi tank that will
>last about 8 hours. Easier to handle in a carry case with a strap.
>They are expensive so many suppliers don't want to give them to you.

I have one case but it's not the most convenient and will be ordering one from a different manufacturer when the retailer's
inventory is replenished.

>The only true quiet systems use liquid oxygen. They are rare these days
>as the tank has to be filled every 8 days or so, but they are dead quiet.

Progress is good, but there are times the good old days have appeal. :-)

[Terry Coombs]

Might be different where you are (I'm in N. central Arkansas) , but I have
nothing but good things to say about VA medical care . Because I live more
than 40 miles from the nearest facility , they set me up with an appointment
with a local (and very very good) Ortho guy to look at the torn muscles in
my arm . My visits to the nearest facility for annual physical checkups have
also been great - and no extended waits for an appointment .

--
Snag

[Gordon Shumway]

Hehe, not many seem to remember Alf. Yes, it is a sleeping issue, more for my wife than me though. I'll suggest the ear plugs
to her... again.

BTW, I know I'm not your favorite. Uncle Monster always was. ;-)

[Micky]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 18:39:22 -0400, Frank <"frank "@frank.net> wrote:

Portable?

I just saw a 20-year neighbor last night and for the first time he had
a portable one. There were two people sitting between me and him, at
a table, plus it was probably on the far side of him, and I didn't
hear it. The guy retired from the fire department on disability
years ago, and he's seemed fine all this time, but I resisted drawing
conclusions. But he probably was, and I guess for sure he is now.

[Gordon Shumway]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 23:48:15 -0400, Micky <NONONObobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 18:39:22 -0400, Frank <"frank "@frank.net> wrote:
>
>>On 7/22/2016 6:32 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>> We now have an oxygen concentrator in our house and it is noisy. What have any of you seen or done to reduce the sound output
>>> from one of these machines?
>>>
>>> www.invacare.com/Platinum_10_Concentrator
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>Can't see page. Is this US? Thought machines were quieter.
>
>Portable?

No, it's for use in the home -- stationary.

http://www.invacare.com/cgi-bin/imhqprd/inv_catalog/prod_cat_detail.jsp?s=0&prodID=IRC10LXO2&catOID=-536890256

>I just saw a 20-year neighbor last night and for the first time he had
>a portable one. There were two people sitting between me and him, at
>a table, plus it was probably on the far side of him, and I didn't
>hear it. The guy retired from the fire department on disability
>years ago, and he's seemed fine all this time, but I resisted drawing
>conclusions. But he probably was, and I guess for sure he is now.

I've been looking at those. I've only been on oxygen therapy for about 4 months and haven't decided if I want to spend 3
grand on one of those units to replace the cylinders. Maybe some day.

[mike]

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I need some help with an oxygen
concentrator.
I'm finding almost zero info on the machine.
I've asked around at medical stores. They all seem paranoid and
don't want to offer any advice at all. They claim they just send them
back to the vendor for service. That ain't gonna happen.

I bought it at a garage sale with the intention of using it
as an oxygen generator for a small oxy-propane torch. They claimed
it worked. Date codes suggest that it's little used.

Invacare XPO100
Software version 3
PM due 9/2018

Was missing external filter.
Internal filter is dirty, but not restrictive.
Removing it didn't fix error.

Press to level 5
Press + and Battery Level to put into continuous mode.
Runs about 30 seconds until error
Error Code: 3 and 4 lights on.
Pressing + and - gives no secondary error code.
Manual says
Abnormal Compressor Operation.
It does seem to put out something, but it's not concentrated
oxygen. Apparently, they take a while to "get up to speed."


It has a demand sensor, but I'm not about to suck on it.
No idea what killed the previous owner. ;-)
I thought continuous mode would eliminate the possibility
that it requires demand.

Is this thing fixable? Would be nice if it's just operator
error.
I don't need any medical certifications,
just oxygen that makes propane burn hotter.

[dadiOH]

"Gordon Shumway" <Rho...@Planet.Melmac> wrote in message
news:cl75pblnlgao8pfid...@4ax.com...

They vary considerably in noise level both from manufacturer to manufacturer
and from model to model. I have used two in conjunction with my CPAP thing:
the first was pretty noisy; the second - a Resperonics Everflo - is not,
can't even hear it from 4-6 feet away.

Our bed's headboard abuts a bathroom wall. The machine is in a cabinet on
that wall in the bathroom. I led the supply tube through the common wall to
the CPAP machine. Naturally, the cabinet doors are open for heat
dissapation when the machine is on.

BTW, the prices on these machines vary greatly. The one I now have can be
purchased at prices as low as $600 but my insurance company leases it. The
provider bills them $300/mo, they pay $100/mo. Yes, $100/mo. for a machine
that can be purchased for $600. With a 3 year warranty. MediCare...The
World's Greatest Opportunity to Get Rich.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 00:20:37 -0700, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:



>At the risk of hijacking the thread, I need some help with an oxygen
>concentrator.
>I'm finding almost zero info on the machine.
>I've asked around at medical stores. They all seem paranoid and
>don't want to offer any advice at all. They claim they just send them
>back to the vendor for service. That ain't gonna happen.
>
>I bought it at a garage sale with the intention of using it
>as an oxygen generator for a small oxy-propane torch. They claimed
>it worked. Date codes suggest that it's little used.
>
>Invacare XPO100
>Software version 3
>PM due 9/2018

You can get the owners manual here
http://www.invacare.com/cgi-bin/imhqprd/inv_catalog/prod_cat_detail.jsp?prodID=XPO100

Yes, most medical places send them back for certified repair shops
since they are dealing with a medical device. Potential liability if
you FUp

It may require you to be breathing on a cannula even in continuous
mode, but I don't know for sure. I did not read the manual. Many
portable units give oxygen only when the patient is breathing in and
stop when they exhale.

I have no idea how you intend to use this with a torch. Unlike a
tank, there is no real pressure or regulation.

[dadiOH]

"Gordon Shumway" <Rho...@Planet.Melmac> wrote in message

news:hsi5pbhdidl94om6i...@4ax.com...

You could put it in a box lined with acoustical tiles but you'd have to
provide for air supply and heat dissapation with vents or fan.

You could set up posts and drape material around and over them, leaving gaps
at top and bottom.

You could put it in another room and close the room to that room and the
door to the room where you are.

[bob haller]

put a extension air line on the unit, put it in another room, where the noise wouldnt cause issues

[bob_villain]

You are still popular...on the internet and retro-channels. Google image your name once. http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/BenDarrenBach/alf_zps8xmaudgv.jpg

[Terry]

On 07/23/2016 07:52 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> BTW, the prices on these machines vary greatly. The one I now have can be
> purchased at prices as low as $600 but my insurance company leases it. The
> provider bills them $300/mo, they pay $100/mo. Yes, $100/mo. for a machine
> that can be purchased for $600. With a 3 year warranty. MediCare...The
> World's Greatest Opportunity to Get Rich.

Sleep apnea has several causes but a preventable one is when people are
so fat that their airways become obstructed and their lungs don't have
room to breath.

Medicare should give these fatties a two year warning to either lose
weight and eliminate the CPAP dependence or pay for the CPAP themselves.

Or maybe we should treat junk foods like cigarettes and tax the hell out
of them.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 7/23/2016 7:52 AM, dadiOH wrote:


> BTW, the prices on these machines vary greatly. The one I now have can be
> purchased at prices as low as $600 but my insurance company leases it. The
> provider bills them $300/mo, they pay $100/mo. Yes, $100/mo. for a machine
> that can be purchased for $600. With a 3 year warranty. MediCare...The
> World's Greatest Opportunity to Get Rich.
>
>

Ah, not really. They cut the payments 24% as of July 1 and will
probably put some of the suppliers out of business. That $100 covers a
machine that can cost up to $3000 for a good one, all the supplies,
portable tanks, service, delivery, and a replacement at 2 AM if your
stops working.

I know two people in the business and used to work part time for one of
them. When the rates were higher, they made a decent living, but with
present rates they are considering closing. When you bill that $100 you
can also wait a long time to get paid too.

[Steve Stone]

On 7/22/2016 6:32 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
> We now have an oxygen concentrator in our house and it is noisy. What have any of you seen or done to reduce the sound output
> from one of these machines?
>
> www.invacare.com/Platinum_10_Concentrator
>
> Thanks.
>

Build a box around it padded with acoustic tiles.

[anonymous]

Put the unit in the basement, drill a hole thru the floor, add a hose extension of some sort and you're done.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 7/23/2016 2:16 PM, Steve Stone wrote:

Then add a refrigeration unit to move out the heat so the compressor
does not burn out. .

[dadiOH]

"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:E9SdnQFZVesPPg7K...@giganews.com...

> On 7/23/2016 7:52 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>
>
>> BTW, the prices on these machines vary greatly. The one I now have can
>> be
>> purchased at prices as low as $600 but my insurance company leases it.
>> The
>> provider bills them $300/mo, they pay $100/mo. Yes, $100/mo. for a
>> machine
>> that can be purchased for $600. With a 3 year warranty. MediCare...The
>> World's Greatest Opportunity to Get Rich.
>>
>>
>
> Ah, not really. They cut the payments 24% as of July 1 and will probably
> put some of the suppliers out of business. That $100 covers a machine
> that can cost up to $3000 for a good one, all the supplies, portable
> tanks, service, delivery, and a replacement at 2 AM if your stops working.

No, that was $100/month for the machine that can be purchased for $600+-.
Yes, it was delivered; I have no tanks; there are no supplies save a filter
that is not user serviceable and which they change annually. I suspect they
are compensated by the manufacturer for any repairs since it has a 36 month
manufacturer's warranty.

I strongly suspect they would be billing much more for a machine costing
$3000 although I can't imagine one actually being worth that. As far as
cutting payments goes, may we credit Obama's grand scheme - ObamaCare - for
that? I know that it takes $150/month out of MY pocket.

I still say that being paid $100/month for a $600 machine is financial rape.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 7/23/2016 3:47 PM, dadiOH wrote:

> No, that was $100/month for the machine that can be purchased for $600+-.
> Yes, it was delivered; I have no tanks; there are no supplies save a filter
> that is not user serviceable and which they change annually. I suspect they
> are compensated by the manufacturer for any repairs since it has a 36 month
> manufacturer's warranty.
>
> I strongly suspect they would be billing much more for a machine costing
> $3000 although I can't imagine one actually being worth that. As far as
> cutting payments goes, may we credit Obama's grand scheme - ObamaCare - for
> that? I know that it takes $150/month out of MY pocket.
>
> I still say that being paid $100/month for a $600 machine is financial rape.
>
>

They get the same amount no matter what is supplied. My wife has a
$2000 concentrator, $1500 fill system, portable tanks 3000psi, $1500+
conserver system and the suppler bill $124 a month. He may make out on
yours, but he gets the same on every other system. Not nearly as
lucrative as you perceive.

[dadiOH]

"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message

news:Sd6dnaum_N6qUg7K...@giganews.com...

How much they get depends upon what the supplier and insurance company have
agreed to. No idea what Medicare pays.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Insurance companies don't spend foolishly. There is more involved that
you are aware of. I worked part time for a home oxygen provider for a
few years.

https://www.healthindustrywashingtonwatch.com/2015/11/articles/other-health-policy-developments/other-cms-developments/cms-releases-2016-medicare-dmepos-fee-schedule-reflecting-steep-cuts-based-on-dmepos-competitive-bidding-rates/

[Art Todesco]

Yeah, that's really a problem. I put one in a walk in closet; not a
really big closet, but still a walk in and it raised the temp a whole
lot. So much that I was concerned about the unit overheating and
causing other problems. As someone said, put it as far away as possible
and add extra hose.

[bob_villain]

How can I pot this delicately...have you tried putting your wife in another room? 8^)

[Uncle Monster]

A late friend of mine had his O2 machine on the other side of his house from where he was spending most of his time. The air line was probably 100 feet long. I have an oxygen machine in my room here at the center and it makes noise but not enough to bother me and I have sensitive hearing. I just turn up the sound on the TV/computer. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Oxygen Monster

[Gordon Shumway]

The thought has crossed my mind. ;-)

[bob_villain]

I wonder how "pot" got in my head...too far to be a typo?

[Ed Pawlowski]

I spoke to the owner of the company I used to work for. Even though
that contract is for 3 years, even though there are no more payments
after that time they are still obligated to service the equipment and
give you supplies as long ass you are using it. So they get paid for
36 months, but the service is for the life of your use even it goes
another 15 years.

Medicare payments have been reduced at least three times. Ten years
ago he was billing more than double what he is billing today for the
same number of patients. The only changes is that in that time
expenses have gone up.

If you are interested in getting on the gravy train you can buy his
business. He will sell rather than close so he is not charged with
patient abandonment. He was offered $1million about 10 years ago and
is hoping to get $50k now.

[mike]

If you had read the manual, you'd know that it's mostly safety fluff
and "press go" information. There's one page on diagnostics and
I published the results of that in my first post.
There is a continuous mode that should not require demand, but
the manual is vague on exactly what that means.
Was hoping to get more definitive info from our 16-year veteran fixing
them.

>
> I have no idea how you intend to use this with a torch. Unlike a
> tank, there is no real pressure or regulation.

Well, that is an unknown.
The experimental plan goes something like.
Concentric inverted tin cans with water fill.
Concentrator displaces the water to fill the apparatus.
Put a weight on top to get the desired pressure.
Light the torch. It's a tiny torch, so probably don't
need much oxygen at all. Just want it hotter.

I figgered $10 for an oxygen concentrator was a low risk
impulse purchase. They swore it worked...yeah right...
And, maybe I'll need one some day
and can have it refurbed.
>

[dadiOH]

"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message

news:nk7apb9on7sq1bkud...@4ax.com...

I hope he saved during the gravy days.

[unit...@gmail.com]

Totally understand!!!
Your description, although funny- IS SO TRUE!
Same dilemma for my mom and her machine. Thinking we need to store it in the basement to simply TOLERATE it in our lives!!!

[Ed Pawlowski]

You can easily run 25 feet of tubing and put the concentration in a
different room with the door closed. Even a large walk-in closet with
plenty of sace but not a regular closet.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 8 Dec 2019 15:20:01 -0800 (PST),

Where was the post that this one is an answer to?

[kingo...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 22, 2016 at 5:33:46 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
> We now have an oxygen concentrator in our house and it is noisy. What have any of you seen or done to reduce the sound output
> from one of these machines?
>
> www.invacare.com/Platinum_10_Concentrator
>
> Thanks.

Have a couple of friends on oxygen. In a bible study or church, their machines are very disturbing to those around them by preventing them from hearing the speaker(s. Certainly don't want to discourage their participation, but would like suggestions on reducing their sound of operation.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Shut them off and let the people pass out. A little CPR after and they
will be back to normal

Machines make noise. Deal with it. If they could be made quiet the
engineers would have done it so they could brag how quiet they are.

What a bunch of compassionate hypocrites at a bible study. Evidently
you never learned anything from it. WWJD?

[rbowman]

On 01/19/2020 05:21 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> What a bunch of compassionate hypocrites at a bible study. Evidently
> you never learned anything from it. WWJD?

Heal them...

[Mike Duffy]

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:21:13 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Machines make noise.

This brings to mind something I've wondered about the past few years.

We can increase efficiency in internal combustion engines by supercharging.

Would it not also increase efficiency by a factor of 5 by eliminating the
~80% inert nitrogen in the intake manifold? For sure, an oxygen
concentrator would take away some power, but then superchargers do so as
well. They seem to be worth the extra weight as well, all things
considered.

[gregz]

A muffler. A blanket, bag, something that does not block any venting. If a
vent, a hand sewn vent extension right angle to vent, made out of a quilted
cloth.

Greg

[Dean Hoffman]

Set the concentrators in something like a wicker laundry basket or
clothes hamper?

[Tim and Jammy Bakker]

On 1/19/20 6:41 PM, kingo...@gmail.com wrote:
> Have a couple of friends on oxygen. In a bible study or church, their machines are very disturbing to those around them by preventing them from hearing the speaker(s. Certainly don't want to discourage their participation, but would like suggestions on reducing their sound of operation.

Maybe pray they will be healed and no longer dependent on the oxygen concentrator? Or doesn't praying actually work?

[Ed Pawlowski]

What exactly to you think a concentrator does? In concentrates oxygen
by eliminating nitrogen. So you are suggesting a concentrator feeds a
concentrator?

There are silent portable systems that can go 8 hours on a small tank.
Given to Medicare reimbursement to the supplier most are not going to
give an additional $3500 in equipment and get nothing back.

There is also liquid tanks but they have to be filled about every 7
days, not at all profitable.

[Mike Duffy]

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 10:25:23 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> What exactly to you think a concentrator does? In concentrates oxygen
> by eliminating nitrogen. So you are suggesting a concentrator feeds a
> concentrator?

I'm not clear on your point. I suggest that the air intake for the engine
take in straight oxygen instead of air (21% oxygen). If you wanted, you
could also compress the oxygen with a supercharger. Is that what you are
getting at?

Supercharged or not, with 100% oxygen, for the same size of cylinder you
can inject 5 times the amount of fuel. That should give 5 times the
horsepower for the same engine weight.

Probably there will be other engineering considerations, like burning holes
through the pistons. But it seems an avenue worth exploring. I'm just
curious about why nobody has ever tried it.

[trader_4]

AFAIK, they just get more power out of the same size engine by getting
more air/fuel mix into the same displacement. But if that's the efficiency
effect, ie getting more power from the same size engine, then yes,
feeding it pure oxygen should do the same thing. You could put more
fuel/air mix in the same space.

[Ed Pawlowski]

OK, misunderstood you. Would be interesting to see. Theoretically you
may be right but getting that much oxygen for a sustained time is
probably the biggest obstacle to overcome.

[trader_4]

Probably because there is no practical, cost effective way to produce
the required oxygen. What would the required flow rate have to be
compared to the flow rate from one of those portable O2 units?
IDK what you're gaining for common applications, eg powering cars.
You'd be getting a smaller engine size in return for space, cost and
power taken up by an O2 generator, another system. I guess one place
to start would be to see how much O2 one of those portables makes and
if you used it to just replace some of the air, how much more power you
could get from the same engine. If it's some reasonable amount, then
maybe it has merit.

[Ed Pawlowski]

I think you have to carry LOX and have limited range. Could make a hell
of a dragster though.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <7VkVF.16612$Pj7....@fx14.iad>, e...@snet.xxx says...

>
> I think you have to carry LOX and have limited range. Could make a hell
> of a dragster though.
>
>
>

They have been injecting nitrous oxide in engines for years. Stock
engines can take a small bost and engines with heaver duty parts can
take more. As always the problem is storing enough in the car to go for
a long distance. The nitro seems to be stable and not flamable before
it reaches over 500 deg F and then the oxygen seperates out and you can
inject more fuel in the engine for more power.

The concentrators seperates the oxygen in air from the nitrogen.
Probably would take a big concentrator to be useful in a car.

[Frank]

I think size is the problem as the car would need far more oxygen than a
human. I can't find the different requirements but it does sound
interesting. There are large concentrators. Power for the concentrator
would come off the engine.

[rbowman]

On 01/20/2020 08:58 AM, Mike Duffy wrote:
> Probably there will be other engineering considerations, like burning holes
> through the pistons. But it seems an avenue worth exploring. I'm just
> curious about why nobody has ever tried it.

It's easy enough to destroy your engine and drivetrain with nitrous
without getting that exotic.

[rbowman]

On 01/20/2020 10:25 AM, Frank wrote:
> I think size is the problem as the car would need far more oxygen than a
> human. I can't find the different requirements but it does sound
> interesting. There are large concentrators. Power for the concentrator
> would come off the engine.

And might consume as much power as it produced.

[rbowman]

On 01/20/2020 09:52 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
> I think you have to carry LOX and have limited range. Could make a hell
> of a dragster though.

I imagine somebody tried it and found it wanting.

https://www.dragzine.com/news/flashback-friday-the-story-of-the-leathal-fuel-called-hydrazine/

Hey, if it works in a Titan II rocket it ought to work in a fuelie. Or
maybe they were emulating a Me-163. Hydrazine, methanol, and 80%
hydrogen peroxide. What's not to like?

My physics TA was a drag racing fan. He liked to point out the textbook
illustration of the maximum coefficient of friction and linear
acceleration was getting bent at the strip. He also mentioned that if
you were trying to adjust the CG on a commercial airliner depleted
uranium was just the stuff.

https://wise-uranium.org/ruxcw.html

Another good reason not to fly.

[Mike Duffy]

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 19:27:23 -0700, rbowman wrote:

> And might consume as much power as it produced.

Might? I decided to perform a simple first order estimation:

From
https://www.usa.philips.com/healthcare/product/HC1076773/simplyflo-oxygen-concentrator/specifications
we get some basic specs on the concentrator:

4.1 Kg, 2 litres/min O2 produced, 120 W power consumed. (Also specified is
O2 concentration 87% to 96%; I use 91% for calculation below marked with
"&".)

From https://www.gregraven.org/hotwater/calculators/airflow-hp.html we get
(for a 1600 cc engine) the relation of 54 cubic feet per minute of normal
air to make 78 horsepower.

First, we figure out how many of the O2 concentrators we need:

54 cubic feet per minute = 1530 litres / min. If one O2 concentrator
produces 2 litres / min, we need the equivalent of 765 O2 concentrators.

These (or one big one) will weigh in at 3.1 metric tons (4.1 kg * 765), and
require 120 W * 765 = 92 Kw = 122 hp.

The power from the engine though, is 5 * 78 hp * 0.91 (&) = 335 hp. (The
factor of 5 is the gain from using pure oxygen instead of air). But we need
to subtract the 122 hp used by the concentrator, thus 233 hp. Effective
'gain' is 233 / 78 = 3.0

From
http://blogs.youwheel.com/2014/04/14/engine-weight-a-comprehensive-list/

We get an entry for a 1600 cc engine:

VW flat-4 Type 1 250 1600cc dual port

I have no idea of the actual power rating of this engine; I am only
interested in the weight of 250 Kg.


So the entire contraption (concentrator + engine) ends up wighing 3.35
metric tons (3.1 + 0.25).

Total power available to wheels is increased by a factor of 3.
Total weight is increased by a factor of 13.5

So on first glance, probably it won't work. But then again, one big
concentrator should be more efficient than 765 small ones. If it could be
made 4 or 5 times more efficient (13.5 / 3), we reach the break-even point.

Then, we need to work out how not to burn holes through the engine head.

[Frank]

Good analysis. I am also reminded of a Scotty Kilmer video reminding
that if you turbocharge an engine you must remember they you need a
beefed up drive train to adequately handle the extra power.

[rbowman]

On 01/21/2020 06:52 AM, Frank wrote:
> Good analysis. I am also reminded of a Scotty Kilmer video reminding
> that if you turbocharge an engine you must remember they you need a
> beefed up drive train to adequately handle the extra power.

One of the down ticks for the Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ is the 2 liter
engine. When asked why they don't turbocharge it Toyota answers it is
well balanced as it is and more power would mean a redesign. Even the
tuners say any engine work will need a beefier clutch.

i wonder what the current trend towards smaller engines with boost will
mean in longevity. It's not like a few decades ago when cars were
over-engineered.

[Frank]

Did a quick google on this and engines are apparently OK for longevity
but adding more parts like the turbocharger means more stuff that might
break down.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <r079qa$rfc$1...@dont-email.me>, "frank "@frank.net says...

>
> Did a quick google on this and engines are apparently OK for longevity
> but adding more parts like the turbocharger means more stuff that might
> break down.
>
>

For common on the road usage I have always though the turbocharges and
such was just more stuff to cause trouble. Just make the engine larger.

I can see them for race cars where you want max performace for minimum
weight and plan on rebuilding them after almost every race.

[Frank]

Some people like those jackrabbit starts but not for me. Car and Driver
may not like my non-turbo Subaru but Consumer Reports loves it.

[trader_4]

I think the advantage is that the turbo is there to boost power when
needed, but when not, the smaller engine gets better fuel economy.
If you put a larger engine in to get the peak power, it would burn
more fuel even at lower power output. And apparently reliability
isn't that much of an issue. They are essentially two fans on a shaft
and should last the life of the engine.