Why are radiators made of cast iron
Sam Takoy
Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.
Thanks in advance,
Sam
Lefty
"Sam Takoy" <samt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hn1uh2$d73$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Cheap, durable.
'nuff said?
David Nebenzahl
> Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
> Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.
Aluminum might be better, but wasn't around when cast-iron radiators
were first made. Iron is an excellent metal for casting and conducts
heat well (and is less expensive than other metals, like copper, that
are better conductors).
--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.
- a Usenet "apology"
DD_BobK
In no particular order........
cheap, decent heat transfer characteristics, relatively good corrosion
resistance, low tech manufacturing methods
cheers
Bob
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>Hi,
>
>Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
>Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.
They are. Newer homes, with hydronic heat, have copper or copper/aluminum
baseboards. Cast iron baseboards have become *expensive* (and a waste of
money).
The Daring Dufas
I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
TDD
Doug Miller
>Sam Takoy wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
>> Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.
>>
>
>be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
>period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
>of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
Finally, a correct answer.
The Daring Dufas
I guess majoring in physics wasn't useless after all. *snicker*
TDD
EXT
I don't know that ALL radiators are made of cast iron, mostly old radiators
made around the time of WWII and earlier were cast iron. These days many are
fined tubes, or other materials. The ones used in Europe seem to be made
from pressed sheet steel.
Doug Miller
Guess not. But, yes, you hit the nail on the head. The principal advantage of
cast iron radiators is that they retain heat very well, which provides a much
more even heat than the aluminum fin-tube radiators do.
willshak
allow toddlers around them). They have enclosures especially built for
them which also helps with the ugly part.
Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
water on top of them.
I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
HeyBub
Because straw isn't very durable?
The Daring Dufas
> The Daring Dufas wrote the following:
>> Sam Takoy wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another
>>> metal? Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal
>>> with.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>> Sam
>>
>> I would imagine one benefit of a heavy cast iron radiator would
>> be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
>> period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
>> of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
>>
>> TDD
> The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot (don't
> allow toddlers around them). They have enclosures especially built for
> them which also helps with the ugly part.
> Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
> water on top of them.
> I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
>
When I was a kid and an inmate at the Catholic Parochial Gulag back
in the middle of the last century, the building had radiators with
hissing contraptions on the top side that reminded me of the valve
on a pressure cooker. If I remember right, there was steam coming
out of the thing that could very well have contributed to keeping
the humidity up in the building.
TDD
The Daring Dufas
I've read about the Scandinavian or Finnish style fireplaces that have a
huge mass of masonry which does the same darn thing. I've always thought
that if I were to ever build a home, I would want such a fireplace. Add
a bit of hysteresis to the heating cycle and keep things comfortable.
TDD
Tony
The aluminum fin baseboard "radiators" are actually "convectors", not
radiators. Most of the heat from them is cold air going in the bottom
and warm air coming out the top, known as a "convection current". If
you sit in front, 2 feet away, you won't feel the heat on your body like
you do if you sit in front of a radiator. Radiators also have
convection currents but not nearly the same as a convector.
Tony
It's called "steam heat".
Tony
> Doug Miller wrote:
>
> I've read about the Scandinavian or Finnish style fireplaces that have a
> huge mass of masonry which does the same darn thing. I've always thought
> that if I were to ever build a home, I would want such a fireplace. Add
> a bit of hysteresis to the heating cycle and keep things comfortable.
>
The only problem is they take a long time before putting out any real
heat. Maybe a fire all day until the mass of masonry gets hot. The
more mass, the longer it will take. Also the more mass, the more even
the heating will be.
The Daring Dufas
I think the nuns were trying to cook us.
TDD
mike
Agreed. I don't like heating systems with a large lag factor. I want
instant heat when I want heat, and when things are warm enough, I
don't want the system to keep pumping out heat.
Doug Miller
>The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot (don't
>allow toddlers around them).
Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's circulated
through them.
>They have enclosures especially built for
>them which also helps with the ugly part.
Some do. Many don't.
>Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
>water on top of them.
>I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware that many
homes are heated by hot water, not steam.
The Daring Dufas
It's not like I wouldn't have central heat. This winter when Global
Warming was falling all over Alabama and we had the coldest winter
in many years, that's the sort of time I would use it silly.
TDD
willshak
many homes and buildings.
You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.
The Daring Dufas
> Doug Miller wrote the following:
>> In article <hvOdncxwVvAqvAjW...@supernews.com>, willshak
>> <will...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
>>> (don't allow toddlers around them).
>>
>> Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
>> circulated through them.
>>
>>
>>> They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps with
>>> the ugly part.
>>>
>>
>> Some do. Many don't.
>>
>>
>>> Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
>>> water on top of them.
>>> I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
>>>
>>
>> Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware that
>> many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.
>>
> I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source for
> many homes and buildings.
> You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.
>
YOU DAMN KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!
TDD
Ed Pawlowski
"willshak" <will...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote
> The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot (don't
> allow toddlers around them). They have enclosures especially built for
> them which also helps with the ugly part.
> Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of water
> on top of them.
> I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some radiators are very good looking
and have rather refined patterns in the casting. Steam and cast iron, IMO,
is the best way to heat. Hot water is better for the lower temperature,
but steam allows heat to be transported longer distances from the boiler
without the use of pumps.
Oren
wrote:
>Hi,
Longevity and durability. Penitentiaries built in the 30s had cast
iron radiators. This was before Jimmy Hoffa ever walked the line.
Originally a coal fired plant that was later up dated, but the
radiators never changed.
In '92 radiators were still used after 60 years?
(service/maintenance).
Al Capone walked the same corridors, before his transfer to Alcatraz.
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote the following:
>> In article <hvOdncxwVvAqvAjW...@supernews.com>, willshak
> <will...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot (don't
>>> allow toddlers around them).
>>>
>>
>> Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's circulated
>> through them.
>>
>>
>>> They have enclosures especially built for
>>> them which also helps with the ugly part.
>>>
>>
>> Some do. Many don't.
>>
>>
>>> Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
>>> water on top of them.
>>> I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
>>>
>>
>> Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware that many
>> homes are heated by hot water, not steam.
>>
>I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source for
>many homes and buildings.
>You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.
>
about radiators. You do. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
circulated through them.
aemeijers
> Hi,
>
> Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
> Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Sam
were already foundries in place that new how to make stuff out of it.
And properly brewed and cast, they also last close enough to forever,
that looking for other materials didn't seem cost effective. If it ain't
broke, etc.
When the era of enclosed radiators started, and people wanted smaller
radiators that didn't suck up so much wall space, they did bring out
copper with fins inside a sheet metal box.
Weight and convenience didn't matter that much, other than to the poor
SOB pipe-fitter installing them. Not like most of them ever moved once
installed. And cast iron, unlike finned copper, has a lot of mass, and
stays warm longer after the steam or water cycles off. That buffers the
temp swings in the room, a little. Anybody know what year they started
attaching fans to room radiators?
--
aem sends...
aemeijers
> Doug Miller wrote the following:
>> In article <hvOdncxwVvAqvAjW...@supernews.com>, willshak
>> <will...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot
>>> (don't allow toddlers around them).
>>
>> Horse-puckey. They don't get any hotter than the water that's
>> circulated through them.
>>
>>
>>> They have enclosures especially built for them which also helps with
>>> the ugly part.
>>>
>>
>> Some do. Many don't.
>>
>>
>>> Another advantage is you don't need a humidifier, just put a pan of
>>> water on top of them.
>>> I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
>>>
>>
>> Ahh, that explains your misconceptions. You're apparently unaware that
>> many homes are heated by hot water, not steam.
>>
> I was raised in NYC in the 1940s. Steam was the main heating source for
> many homes and buildings.
> You haven't been around long enough to contradict me on what I remember.
>
they didn't have to mess with having a boiler. Probably still do in the
older parts of town. I'm sure individual stand-alone houses had their
own little boilers.
--
aem sends...
willshak
Doug Miller
them. Do you contend that they can?
dpb
...
> Nothing there says that radiators get hotter than what's circulated through
> them. Do you contend that they can?
Where on earth did you get such a notion that any other poster had any
idea they get hotter than supply?
All he said was that they are hot surfaces and small persons should be
kept away -- which is all true (particularly if steam heat as opposed to
hot water, the surface temperature may be pretty hot on full flow).
Hot water in a tub isn't any hotter than the water out of the water
heater, either, but it can surely scald (particularly young, tender skin).
Typical hot water heat may be in the 180F max range while steam can be
around 215F--that's plenty warm enough to say "ouch" even giving a few
degrees for radiator surface temperature and distribution drop as
opposed to steam outlet temperature .
--
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>....
>
>> Nothing there says that radiators get hotter than what's circulated through
>> them. Do you contend that they can?
>
>Where on earth did you get such a notion that any other poster had any
>idea they get hotter than supply?
>
>All he said was that they are hot surfaces and small persons should be
>kept away -- which is all true (particularly if steam heat as opposed to
>hot water, the surface temperature may be pretty hot on full flow).
He said they were extremely hot, or some such -- which is *not* true of most
hot-water systems.
dpb
Well, that isn't saying they're hotter than the water is it?
And, it then depends on the definition of what one means by "extremely"
and I'd give the other guy the benefit of the doubt...all one has to do
is have a recollection as a little kid at grandma's house and you'll be
convinced for life (and you _can_ amhikt).
--
dpb
...
> And, it then depends on the definition of what one means by "extremely"
...
And, the word was "very" which is even less incriminating of any real
problem...
--
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
wrote:
Right. Cast iron isn't worth its hype. Copper/aluminum is the way to go for
homes (cast iron is more rugged for commercial use).
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Nope. I this sense they're both "convectors". A "radiator" (without
convection) wouldn't be at all efficient. The source temperature would have
to be much too high.
Doug Miller
willshak erroneously stated. It's _steam heat_ that's (potentially) dangerous.
Doug Miller
Missing the point, both of you. The "lag factor" isn't an issue when the room
stays at a comfortable temperature all the time. It's apparent that you've
never lived in a home with a hot-water heating system using cast iron
radiators.
Tony
That I don't doubt. On second thought, I don't think they would cook
you all the way, because then they couldn't torture you anymore.
JIMMIE
> Hi,
>
> Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
> Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Sam
Wood would really suck.
Jimmie
Tony
It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
conditions.
If your schedule is erratic, yes, stick to light weight copper/aluminum.
Tony
Yes, heating systems with radiators normally run at higher temps then
convectors. Besides, Google is your friend. Do a search for
"baseboard convectors".
Here is some more for you!
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/qa/baseboard-vs-radiator-heat.aspx
"A: Mark Eatherton, a plumbing and heating contractor in Denver,
Colorado, replies: Radiators and baseboard convectors both depend on hot
water as their heat source. The similarity stops there. As their name
implies, radiators deliver heat in the form of radiant energy. In other
words, the energy from a radiator travels through the air without
heating the air until it strikes a solid object. The object is warmed,
which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator�s primary function
is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.
Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off. In some cases,
they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
minimal compared with their overall output potential."
Tony
Instead of beating around the bush, steam under pressure is much hotter
than water in a hydronic system.
The Daring Dufas
Were you a fellow sufferer of the slings and arrows of the crazy women?
TDD
willshak
In my very first message I said STEAM radiators. I never said HOT WATER
radiators, but somehow you seem to have missed that.
"I was brought up in homes with STEAM radiators in NYC".
Then, in my response to you. where you somehow read STEAM as HOT WATER,
I said
"STEAM" was the main heating source for many homes and buildings".
Yet you still contend that I am talking about HOT WATER.
Do you deny that a STEAM radiator, which you have obviously have never
seen or heard of, can get much hotter than a HOT WATER radiator?
http://images.google.com/images?q=steam%20radiators&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
or http://tinyurl.com/yb5uzcm
Your turn to try to save face again, Go.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
I missed nothing, though it's apparent that you can't read. ...and you're
wrong.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still matters
if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast iron
has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
hype.
>
>If your schedule is erratic, yes, stick to light weight copper/aluminum.
When we had a hydronic system (we have heat pumps now), we'd set the
thermostat to 59F at night, 64F during the mornings and late afternoons, and
62F during the day. If we were cold, simply crank the thermostat a few
degrees. The cycle would then restart itself. Eratic, yes. Programmed,
sure. Did I ever want cast iron? Hell no.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Do you believe every sloppily worded article on the Internet? The fact is
that for a "radiator" to work the temperature difference would have to be
*far* more than 100F. Think of an infrared heater. A boiler isn't going to
do it. Convection is a *large* percentage of the heat transfer. Radiation is
miniscule.
>Here is some more for you!
>
>http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/qa/baseboard-vs-radiator-heat.aspx
>
>"A: Mark Eatherton, a plumbing and heating contractor in Denver,
>Colorado, replies: Radiators and baseboard convectors both depend on hot
>water as their heat source. The similarity stops there. As their name
>implies, radiators deliver heat in the form of radiant energy. In other
>words, the energy from a radiator travels through the air without
>heating the air until it strikes a solid object. The object is warmed,
>which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator�s primary function
>is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
>temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.
>
>Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
>most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
>radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off.
No they *CONVECT* heat long after they're shut off.
> In some cases,
>they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
>their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
>baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
>minimal compared with their overall output potential."
More sloppy wording to go with the sloppy thought.
Tony
Yes, I've been Nunned (crying like a baby). Funny, just the other day
my sister was telling about the time she asked her teacher/nun if she
could be an alter girl. The nun told her that she has way too many sins
to stand up there, that she would desecrate the holiness of the church.
And that's putting it mildly, in her words it sounded a hundred times
worse.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Most steam systems are not under (significant) pressure; certainly not
domestic steam systems.
The Daring Dufas
My first grade teacher was Sister Godzilla, an American nun. In the
second grade the whole teaching staff was replaced with Irish nuns
who believe in capital punishment for small children for things like
talking in the restroom. There was Sister Torture, Sister Autopsy,
Sister Defenestration, Sister Vivisection, Mother Mothra and Father
Bigfoot. Because I had nuns as teachers when I was a small boy, I
have absolutely no fear of terrorists. I do have an inexplicable
fear of albino Penguins.
TDD
Doug Miller
>In my very first message I said STEAM radiators. I never said HOT WATER
>radiators, but somehow you seem to have missed that.
No, I didn't miss that. You apparently missed the fact that the whole thread
was about cast iron radiators, though, not "steam radiators". [Hint: check the
title of the thread.]
>"I was brought up in homes with STEAM radiators in NYC".
>Then, in my response to you. where you somehow read STEAM as HOT WATER,
>I said
>"STEAM" was the main heating source for many homes and buildings".
>Yet you still contend that I am talking about HOT WATER.
I never contended that you're talking about hot water. Quite the contrary, in
fact, as you appear to have been completely ignorant of the existence of hot
water systems -- you stated that cast iron radiators are dangerously hot.
That's not true. Radiators _in steam systems_ are dangerously hot, regardless
of what they're made of. Cast iron radiators _in hot water systems_ are *not*
dangerously hot.
>Do you deny that a STEAM radiator, which you have obviously have never
>seen or heard of, can get much hotter than a HOT WATER radiator?
Of course it can. Do you deny that a cast iron radiator in a hot water system
is nowhere nearly as hot as a cast iron radiator in a steam system? And can
you figure out that the dangerous temperatures are the result of the use of
_steam_, not the material that the radiator is made from?
Sheesh.
Tony
> On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
>> daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
>> change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
>> conditions.
>
> You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still matters
> if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast iron
> has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
> expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
> hype.
OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
when using a heating system with a lot more mass. Just like there is no
comfort gained with hot water baseboard vs hot air. The copper,
aluminum, and mostly the hot water left inside convectors doesn't have
any more mass then hot air. Yes you are correct, no one likes hot water
baseboard more than hot air. Just because it has more mass than hot air
doesn't make it any better. You are right.
Tony
>> temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.
>>
>> Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
>> most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
>> radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off.
>
> No they *CONVECT* heat long after they're shut off.
>
>> In some cases,
>> they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
>> their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
>> baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
>> minimal compared with their overall output potential."
>
> More sloppy wording to go with the sloppy thought.
Yes, you are right and all the internet info is wrong. You are so much
smarter than most of the world. You are incredible. Companies call
their product "convectors" but you are so smart, you know they really
aren't convectors, and all the silly people in the world call, and have
called for 100 years, those heavy cast iron things that radiate heat
"radiators" but you, you are so damn smart that you know more than the
rest of the world. You know the cast iron things are really convectors.
Damn, the whole world had it wrong all this time. Thank Gawd you came
to teach us the truth!
Tony
Oh thank Gawd it's you to save us again! I thought steam, at just a
couple pounds of presure will get hotter than the boiling point of
water, you know, 212F+. And you know that hydronic systems have water
in them that seldom goes above 160F, and somehow your mind tells you
that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+. How do you do it? You are
todays Einstein!
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
>>> daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
>>> change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
>>> conditions.
>>
>> You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still matters
>> if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast iron
>> has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
>> expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
>> hype.
>
>OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
>when using a heating system with a lot more mass.
No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.
>Just like there is no
>comfort gained with hot water baseboard vs hot air.
There is a difference, though not all will agree on which is better.
>The copper,
>aluminum, and mostly the hot water left inside convectors doesn't have
>any more mass then hot air.
Water doesn't have more thermal mass than air? Ok, if you say so...
> Yes you are correct, no one likes hot water
>baseboard more than hot air. Just because it has more mass than hot air
>doesn't make it any better. You are right.
Of course..
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>>> which in turn warms the surrounding air. A radiator’s primary function
>>> is affecting the mean radiant temperature, or the average surface
>>> temperature of the surfaces surrounding your body.
>>>
>>> Older style upright cast-iron radiators are usually massive things, with
>>> most weighing a couple of hundred pounds. By their nature, they tend to
>>> radiate energy long after the heat has been shut off.
>>
>> No they *CONVECT* heat long after they're shut off.
>>
>>> In some cases,
>>> they can cause the room temperature to overshoot by a few degrees, but
>>> their overall comfort is superior to that of their cousins, the
>>> baseboard convectors. Radiators have some convective output, but it is
>>> minimal compared with their overall output potential."
>>
>> More sloppy wording to go with the sloppy thought.
>
>Yes, you are right and all the internet info is wrong.
The *words* are used improperly, but what's new?
>You are so much
>smarter than most of the world. You are incredible.
Smarter than you, obviously. The fact that *you* are in awe is
understandable.
>Companies call
>their product "convectors" but you are so smart, you know they really
>aren't convectors, and all the silly people in the world call, and have
>called for 100 years, those heavy cast iron things that radiate heat
>"radiators" but you, you are so damn smart that you know more than the
>rest of the world. You know the cast iron things are really convectors.
> Damn, the whole world had it wrong all this time. Thank Gawd you came
>to teach us the truth!
Do try to think some time. You might learn something.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
I see you're illiterate, as well as being stupid as a stump.
>And you know that hydronic systems have water
>in them that seldom goes above 160F
Bullshit. Most are set for 180F to 200F. The higher the temperature the
higher the efficiency.
>and somehow your mind tells you
>that 160F is just as dangerous as 212F+.
Of course you're a liar, too.
>How do you do it? You are todays Einstein!
With you as a reference, I can see how you would come to that conclusion.
Ed Pawlowski
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote
>>And you know that hydronic systems have water
>>in them that seldom goes above 160F
>
> Bullshit. Most are set for 180F to 200F. The higher the temperature the
> higher the efficiency.
They may be set at 180, but the actual temperature downstream is much less
and declines as it goes.
Doug Miller
>On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:10:40 -0500, Tony <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:50:12 -0500, Tony <tony....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It shouldn't be a problem unless you change the thermostat a few times
>>>> daily. And if you do, set the setting on your electronic thermostat to
>>>> change the high/low settings an hour ahead, or more or less to suit your
>>>> conditions.
>>>
>>> You have to do that anyway, with hydronic heating. However, it still
> matters
>>> if you decide that it's too cold and ask for more heat. For homes, cast
> iron
>>> has no advantages, some disadvantages (some major, some minor), and is more
>>> expensive than copper/aluminum. It's got nothing going for it outside of
>>> hype.
>>
>>OK sure, cast iron is all hype like you say. There is no comfort gained
>>when using a heating system with a lot more mass.
>
>No. Mass means nothing. All it does is take longer to warm up.
*And* cool off, which means that the temperature changes much more gradually.
Tony
This poor boy never heard sarcasm before.
Tony
Nope, no idea what sarcasm is, he really thinks I think He's smart.
LOL!
>
>> Companies call
>> their product "convectors" but you are so smart, you know they really
>> aren't convectors, and all the silly people in the world call, and have
>> called for 100 years, those heavy cast iron things that radiate heat
>> "radiators" but you, you are so damn smart that you know more than the
>> rest of the world. You know the cast iron things are really convectors.
>> Damn, the whole world had it wrong all this time. Thank Gawd you came
>> to teach us the truth!
>
> Do try to think some time. You might learn something.
He does! He really thinks I think He's smart.
LOL!
Plonk! Not worth my time.
harry
> Hi,
>
> Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
> Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.
>
>
> Sam
The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much. There are lots
of disadvantages. As they are made in sections they often leak if
taken out and the joints are stressed. They are very expensive and
labour intensive to make. They heat up and cool slowly due to their
mass.
harry
> "Sam Takoy" <samta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:hn1uh2$d73$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> > Hi,
>
> > Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another metal?
> > Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal with.
>
> > Thanks in advance,
>
> > Sam
>
> made around the time of WWII and earlier were cast iron. These days many are
> fined tubes, or other materials. The ones used in Europe seem to be made
> from pressed sheet steel.
Radiators made in Europe are indeed made of pressed steel. Cast iron
radiators went out in the 1950's. They rely on the water inside being
chemically treated to prevent corrosion. (The pipes are often copper).
Hower we are moving away from this technology towards plastic pipes
buried in the floor (usually though not always concrete). Water
temperatures are then much lower so increasing boiler efficiency.
Boiler efficiencies of over 100% are possible.
harry
> The Daring Dufas wrote the following:
>
>
>
> > Sam Takoy wrote:
>
> >> Why is cast iron a good material for radiators? Why not another
> >> metal? Would certainly make them a little lighter and easier to deal
> >> with.
>
> >> Thanks in advance,
>
> >> Sam
>
> > be the mass of metal will hold heat and release it over a long
> > period of time. I also think that a copper or aluminum radiator
> > of similar thickness would be prohibitively expensive.
>
>
> The disadvantages are that they are big and ugly and get very hot (don't
> them which also helps with the ugly part.
> water on top of them.
> I was brought up in homes with steam radiators in NYC.
>
>
> Bill
> In Hamptonburgh, NY
> In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
>
> - Show quoted text -
Steam radiators don't have to be very hot.
harry
>
> >> willshak wrote:
> >>> Doug Miller wrote the following:
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are showing your ignorance here. The temperature of steam depends
on it's pressure. That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
pressure. If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
The upper limit can be as high as you like.
harry
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:13:27 -0500, Tony <tony.mik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>
> >>> willshak wrote:
> >>>> Doug Miller wrote the following:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Afraid not. Lower temperature systems have a higher efficiency.
BTW, there are no efficient heating systems in America.
Doug Miller
>The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.
As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all, actually.
> There are lots
>of disadvantages. As they are made in sections they often leak if
>taken out and the joints are stressed.
Yeah, that's a pretty frequent occurrence, too, taking them out and stressing
the joints.
> They are very expensive and
>labour intensive to make.
What planet did you grow up on?
>They heat up and cool slowly due to their
>mass.
That is one of the biggest advantages.
Doug Miller
>
>Radiators made in Europe are indeed made of pressed steel. Cast iron
>radiators went out in the 1950's. They rely on the water inside being
>chemically treated to prevent corrosion.
Untrue. In a closed system, once all of the dissolved oxygen reacts with the
iron, no further oxidation will take place (unless additional oxygen is
introduced later).
chaniarts
> In article
> <c99e53e3-eeb8-464d...@f8g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> harry <susan.a...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>> The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.
>
> As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
> actually.
huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and aluminium
rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide (white). they just
don't rust orange like iron does.
Doug Miller
>You are showing your ignorance here. The temperature of steam depends
>on it's pressure. That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
>pressure. If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
>120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
>The upper limit can be as high as you like.
How many steam heating systems are you aware of that operate at, or below,
atmospheric pressure? Please cite specific examples.
Tony
I thought we were talking about a one pipe system? Maybe that was
another thread, maybe not??
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the ramp
up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
nothing.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Poor dork can't read.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
I think you're illiterate. In fact I *know* it.
>>
>>> Companies call
>>> their product "convectors" but you are so smart, you know they really
>>> aren't convectors, and all the silly people in the world call, and have
>>> called for 100 years, those heavy cast iron things that radiate heat
>>> "radiators" but you, you are so damn smart that you know more than the
>>> rest of the world. You know the cast iron things are really convectors.
>>> Damn, the whole world had it wrong all this time. Thank Gawd you came
>>> to teach us the truth!
>>
>> Do try to think some time. You might learn something.
>
>He does! He really thinks I think He's smart.
>LOL!
>
>Plonk! Not worth my time.
Facts, apparently, never are.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Not much less at the first radiator - certainly not 20F lower. Ideally there
is no loss inbetween the furnace and the first radiator (wasted heat).
Obviously the water is going to cool as it winds through the loop.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
wrote:
Wrong. In this case, the gas fire is hotter than the loop. You want the loop
to be as hot as possible to minimize the heat lost in the heat exchanger. Heat
pumps operate at a lower temperature for similar reasons (lower delta-T).
>BTW, there are no efficient heating systems in America.
Now you're just being stupid.
Doug Miller
Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and aluminum
*oxidize*, but only iron can rust.
Doug Miller
Perhaps you live someplace where you turn your heat on and off every day.
Where I live, it's cold enough in the winter that we leave the heating system
on all the time. We *want* those radiators to stay warm.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
When we lived in VT we changed it several times a day, four times
automatically and another one or two manually. Here we have heat pumps, so no
fiddling with the thermostat.
>Where I live, it's cold enough in the winter that we leave the heating system
>on all the time. We *want* those radiators to stay warm.
I like sleeping in a cold house and reasonable during the day (VT house
59night/64day with a boost to 68F in the evening) .
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Oxides of copper and aluminum are not porous, either (oxidation stops
quickly). Rust is.
Ed Pawlowski
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote
> Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
> However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the
> ramp
> up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
> nothing.
Where is the heat wasted? If the house is constantly losing heat on a cold
day, the heat from the radiator is just helping to maintain it for a longer
time between cycles. The perfect system it to balance the heat loss with
the heat makeup of the radiators to maintain a perfect temperature all the
time.
Doug Miller
Oxidation of iron stops pretty quickly, too, as long as it stays dry.
Nonny
"Doug Miller" <spam...@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:hnbouu$es4$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
The cast iron radiators are most likely used on a single pipe
system, along with an open sump. Air is introduced at the sump
and if the water isn't treated, it can cause excessive rusting.
Yes, closed systems are different, though.
--
Nonny
Luxury cars now offer a great seating option for politicians.
These seats blow heated air onto their backside in the winter and
cooled air in the summer. If sold to voters, though, the car
seats
are modified to just blow smoke up the voter’s rump year-round
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>
>
><k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote
>> Sure, thermodynamics requires things to be symmetrical, that way. ;-)
>> However, the time ramping up and down are inefficient. Waiting for the
>> ramp
>> up, your cold. On the way down, you've wasted that heat. Nothing for
>> nothing.
>
>Where is the heat wasted?
Heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference. If you leave the
difference higher, longer, the loss is more than it would have been if the
temperature came down more quickly. Nothing for nothing.
> If the house is constantly losing heat on a cold
>day, the heat from the radiator is just helping to maintain it for a longer
>time between cycles. The perfect system it to balance the heat loss with
>the heat makeup of the radiators to maintain a perfect temperature all the
>time.
The higher the temperature (difference) the higher the loss.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
We are talking about hydronic and steam heat systems.
Ed Pawlowski
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:mggjp55t17guk3hnu...@4ax.com...
OK, that is true and complies with the laws of physics. But where is the
waste? If I keep my house at 70 with copper, I use the same heat as keeping
my house at 70 with cast iron, cast aluminum, or hollow chicken bones. 70
degrees is 70 degrees and it takes the same Btu to maintain that temperature
over outside ambient no matter the source.
Only way you'd have waste from the higher heat loss is if the temperature
inside overshot the thermostat. That is the fault of system design or bad
equipment, not the heat transfer material. Cast iron allows for a nice
steady heat.
I don't see any loss.
Doug Miller
Yes, and there -- in closed systems, at least -- oxidation stops pretty
quickly, too, as soon as the oxygen is used up.
chaniarts
> In article <hnbp3r$n25$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, "chaniarts"
> <charlie...@nospam.stratus.com> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <c99e53e3-eeb8-464d...@f8g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>>> harry <susan.a...@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.
>>>
>>> As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all,
>>> actually.
>>
>> huh? rust is the metal changing into an oxide. both copper and
>> aluminium rust, forming copper oxide (green) and aluminim oxide
>> (white). they just don't rust orange like iron does.
>
> Wrong. Rust is, by definition, hydrated iron oxide. Copper and
> aluminum *oxidize*, but only iron can rust.
hmm. webster at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rust 1b doesn't
agree with you. i think you need to take it up with them :)
chaniarts
really? aluminim oxide can be formed as a powder, which is pretty porous.
never had a pinhole in copper pipe show green, and still leak?
Doug Miller
Nice try. It says "comparable coating". Copper oxide and aluminum oxide aren't
even remotely similar to rust.
harry
> In article <0c62627e-9b14-4b12-b719-2aa70f734...@o30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, harry <susan.armit...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Radiators made in Europe are indeed made of pressed steel. Cast iron
> >radiators went out in the 1950's. They rely on the water inside being
> >chemically treated to prevent corrosion.
>
> Untrue. In a closed system, once all of the dissolved oxygen reacts with the
> iron, no further oxidation will take place (unless additional oxygen is
> introduced later).
Unfortunately not true. Due to the dissimilar metals in the system,
electrolytic corrosion takes place without oxygen, the results are
black iron oxide and hydrogen gas.
Due to the development of condensing boilers made of aluminium/
stainless steel the problem is worse than ever. Chemicals to prevent
this are vital in such a system.
harry
> In article <c99e53e3-eeb8-464d-874c-ef26d5964...@f8g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, harry <susan.armit...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> >The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.
>
> As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all, actually.
>
> > There are lots
> >of disadvantages. As they are made in sections they often leak if
> >taken out and the joints are stressed.
>
> Yeah, that's a pretty frequent occurrence, too, taking them out and stressing
> the joints.
>
> > They are very expensive and
> >labour intensive to make.
>
> What planet did you grow up on?
>
> >They heat up and cool slowly due to their
> >mass.
>
> That is one of the biggest advantages.
Not true. Well maybe in America where things are still primitive.
harry
>
> - Show quoted text -
There are such things as one pipe steam heating sytems where the steam
pipe is run to fall back from the radiators to the steam boiler. The
condensate runs in the opposite direction to the steam flow (in the
same pipe) back to the boiler.
I think they were popular in America at one time I think.
It's a simple sytem but control is poor and noises are often
generated. The steam pressure is low, the boiler is usually cast iron
and extremely inefficient.
harry
> In article <c264c0b2-c6eb-4a2c-95e4-dcb2625d4...@r1g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, harry <susan.armit...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> >You are showing your ignorance here. The temperature of steam depends
> >on it's pressure. That pressure can be above or below atmospheric
> >pressure. If it is sub-atmospheric the temperature can be as low as
> >120degF. If it is at amospheric pressure the temperature is 212degF.
> >The upper limit can be as high as you like.
>
> How many steam heating systems are you aware of that operate at, or below,
> atmospheric pressure? Please cite specific examples.
I ran a huge sytem personally before I retired. Steam raised was used
to generate electricity. The exhaust steam from the turbines was used
for heating with direct steam radiators. The pressure in them was 0.6
bar (absolute) ie -8psi in your parlance.
harry
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:45:48 -0800 (PST), harry <susan.armit...@virgin.net>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The hall marks of efficiency are the three T's. Time, turbulence and
Temperature difference.
The lower the temperature of the heating medium (ie water in this
case), the greater the energy transferred from the burning fuel to
that medium.
For an excercise, explain the other two T's.
I had a look round the last time I was in America. Appalling. You
are thirty years behind European standards.
harry
>
> - Show quoted text -
The loss arises through the overshoot. If you have a sytem that can
exactly matches heat requirements its possible to make very
significant savings.10-15% would be pretty typical.
Doug Miller
>On Mar 11, 9:54=A0pm, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> In article <c99e53e3-eeb8-464d-874c-ef26d5964...@f8g2000yqn.googlegroups.=
>com>, harry <susan.armit...@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>> >The only benifit of cast iron is it doesn't rust much.
>>
>> As compared to copper or aluminum, which ... don't rust at all, actually.
>>
>> >of disadvantages. =A0As they are made in sections they often leak if
>> >taken out and the joints are stressed.
>>
>sing
>> the joints.
>>
>> > They are very expensive and
>> >labour intensive to make.
>>
>> What planet did you grow up on?
>>
>> >They heat up and cool slowly due to their
>> >mass.
>>
>> That is one of the biggest advantages.
>
>Not true. Well maybe in America where things are still primitive.
<sigh> obviously you're not worth responding to.
Tony
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. With steam coming out some of the
radiators. It's always above atmospheric pressure, not much, I think 2
to 5 pounds. Pipes clang away. I worked at a place that had that heat
about 25 years ago and while I was there he had a new boiler installed.
The old boiler was very inefficient, originally coal converted to oil.
The new boiler was about 1/4 the size and paid for itself in about 3
years.