Putting electrical outlets in stone/masonry walls
RogerT
figure out how to place the new interior outlets in the existing exterior
walls that are made of stone/masonry. I previously posted about this
property regarding sheetrocking, electrical subpanels, etc. The house will
end up being a rental property.
The property is a 3-story side-by-side "semi-detached" twin home with a full
unfinished basement. I own one side of the twin and someone else owns the
other half next door. All of the lath and plaster has been removed from the
interior walls and ceilings down to the studs and joists. However, all 4 of
the outside walls (front, back, and two sides) are stone. I say "stone",
but it's some kind of red clay-looking blocks that are stacked on top of
each other. Those 4 exterior walls then have a rough coat and a finish coat
of plaster applied right on the stone to create the interior side of each of
those 4 exterior walls of the home -- no lath, just stone and two types of
plaster on top of the stone.
My question is about how to place outlets in those stone/masonry walls. I
don't want to do surface mounted outlets and wiring if I can avoid that. I
can easily notch out the openings for the outlets, and notch out a path up
from the floor to each outlet to get the wire to the outlet. The wiring
will come in from underneath via the now-open ceilings from the floor below.
But, how do I actually mount the electrical boxes in place? Would I just
place the boxes, run the wires to them, and then just mortar the boxes in
place? If so, is there any particular type of box that would be good to
use -- metal, plastic, old work, new work, etc? I will be getting a permit,
and this will end up being inspected before the walls are closed up, so
whatever work I have done will need to meet the applicable code
requirements.
Or, is there another way that electrical outlets are typically wired,
mounted, and secured within masonry/stone walls of a home?
John Grabowski
*There are metal electrical boxes made for masonry which you should be able
to get at an electrical supply house. Raco has the #690 one gang which is
2.5" deep or the 695 which is 3.5" deep. Steel City numbers are GW-125-G
for the one gang 2.5" and GW-135-G for the 3.5" depth. The masonry boxes
are also available in multiple gangs. Don't use plastic boxes for this. I
am not sure they are approved for this type of installation.
It sounds as though you have terracotta block. You can fish wires through
that if there isn't too much residual cement and debris inside. You would
have to cut holes for the boxes and then cement them in place. The
terracotta block can be hard. You may need an angle grinder with a diamond
blade to cut through it neatly. Instead of cable, you could use flexible
conduit to feed the box so that you can add or replace wires down the road
without having to remove the box.
You are also required to have an outlet outside in the front and in the
back. If there is an outside air conditioning condenser you will also need
an outlet for servicing purposes near that unless the front or back outlets
are close.
bob haller
>
> - Show quoted text -
OP should stud out te walls for insulation, fact is if the job has a
permit its likely required
RBM
"RogerT" <Rog...@kjhgfghj.jkh> wrote in message
news:il2uvb$1dr$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> that I'd be too quick to chase that stuff. It can be hard and it can be
> soft and wet. Considering the number of chases you'll have to make, you
> may seriously compromise the integrity of the masonry. I have to agree
> with Haller, (first time for everything) you may be required to insulate
> the walls now that the place is gutted. Even if it's not required, you
> might want to consider installing 2x4's on the flat. This way it won't eat
> up too much space, you can install some insulation, and you have something
> to mount boxes to without destroying the block
>
>
RogerT
>> I am planning a complete rewiring of a house that I own,. and I am
>> trying to figure out how to place the new interior outlets in the
>> existing exterior walls that are made of stone/masonry.
> *There are metal electrical boxes made for masonry which you should
> be able to get at an electrical supply house. Raco has the #690 one
> gang which is 2.5" deep or the 695 which is 3.5" deep. Steel City numbers
> are
> GW-125-G for the one gang 2.5" and GW-135-G for the 3.5" depth. The
> masonry boxes are also available in multiple gangs. Don't use
> plastic boxes for this. I am not sure they are approved for this
> type of installation.
Thanks. I just did a search for them online and that looks like exactly
what I should be using. I didn't know that there was something called a
masonry box -- duh, I guess I could have tried a Google search for that.
But, again, thank you.
> It sounds as though you have terracotta block. You can fish wires
> through that if there isn't too much residual cement and debris
> inside. You would have to cut holes for the boxes and then cement
> them in place. The terracotta block can be hard. You may need an
> angle grinder with a diamond blade to cut through it neatly. Instead
> of cable, you could use flexible conduit to feed the box so that you
> can add or replace wires down the road without having to remove the
> box.
It does look like terracotta blocks to me. If I get a chance, I'll try to
get a good picture of it and post it. It is very easy to cut and/or break
out, partly because the blocks are hollow. I already had to do that in a
few areas for other work I was doing
> You are also required to have an outlet outside in the front and in
> the back.
I do know about that code requirement, so that will be part of the plan. I
will also be adding and outside outlet on the side wall next to a driveway.
> If there is an outside air conditioning condenser you will
> also need an outlet for servicing purposes near that unless the front
> or back outlets are close.
There is no central air at this point -- just hot water cast iron radiator
heat. That may mean that I'll want to include lines to each bedroom that
can accomodate window AC units.
RogerT
> On Mar 7, 1:10 pm, "John Grabowski" <jgrabo...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> *There are metal electrical boxes made for masonry which you should
>> be able to get at an electrical supply house. Raco has the #690 one
>> gang which is
>> 2.5" deep or the 695 which is 3.5" deep. Steel City numbers are
>> GW-125-G for the one gang 2.5" and GW-135-G for the 3.5" depth. The
>> masonry boxes are also available in multiple gangs. Don't use
>> plastic boxes for this. I am not sure they are approved for this
>> type of installation.
>>
> OP should stud out te walls for insulation, fact is if the job has a
> permit its likely required.
I didn't think that insulating the outside walls will be required, but maybe
it will -- so I'll check that out.
RogerT
> "RogerT" <Rog...@kjhgfghj.jkh> wrote in message
> news:il2uvb$1dr$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> I am planning a complete rewiring of a house that I own,. and I am
>> trying to figure out how to place the new interior outlets in the
>> existing exterior walls that are made of stone/masonry. I
>> previously posted about this property regarding sheetrocking,
>> electrical subpanels, etc. The house will end up being a rental
>> property.
> I think that John is correct in the block being teracotta. I don't
> know that I'd be too quick to chase that stuff. It can be hard and
> it can be soft and wet. Considering the number of chases you'll have
> to make, you may seriously compromise the integrity of the masonry.
I think I'll be okay with doing the short chases to the outlets without
compromising the integrity of the masonry. Almost all of the wiring will be
done in the open ceilings with only short runs up to wall outlets. If
necessary, I could probably even do that by running conduit up to each
outlet and then mortaring in the open chases around the conduit for more
structural support. In the kitchen where there will be countertop outlets,
all of those walls will already be framed out.
> I have to agree with Haller, (first time for everything) you may be
> required to insulate the walls now that the place is gutted. Even if
> it's not required, you might want to consider installing 2x4's on
> the flat. This way it won't eat up too much space, you can install
> some insulation, and you have something to mount boxes to without
> destroying the block
I hadn't thought about the possibility that I may be required to insulate
the exterior walls now that the place is gutted. But, since you're the
second person to mention that, it is something I will have to look into. I
had actually been considering doing that anyway. My thinking was to frame
out all of the exterior walls and insulate them. Although that would mean
more work and more in materials, it would certain be a plus to have the
walls insulated, and that would also provide the wiring access for outlets,
switches, etc. The house is getting all new replacement windows -- possibly
full-frame replacement windows -- which will also help in terms of
preventing heat loss. One added problem with framing out the exterior walls
is that the house has hot water cast iron radiator heat, and the radiators
are, of course, on the exterior walls -- mostly under windows. So, if I
frame out those walls, I will need to move all of the radiators in about 4+
inches. That means plumbing work, but since all of the other walls and
ceilings are now open, access to all of the radiator plumbing is easy.
However, I posted this question about how to wire and mount the outlets in
masonry walls in case I end up not framing out all of the masonry walls.
RBM
"RogerT" <Rog...@kjhgfghj.jkh> wrote in message
>Many terracotta blocks are very thin material, essentially just a hollow
>block. If you do frame those walls, you could leave the radiators semi
>recessed although with floors and ceilings open, it can't be too big a deal
>to move the pipes a few inches.
John Grabowski
*Since it is going to be a rental unit you should expect the worst from your
tenants. You don't want them running extension cords or blowing breakers
from electric heaters or air conditioners. Put each bedroom's outlets on a
separate 20 amp circuit and make some of them double duplexes (Quads). You
can go the extra mile and install one quad on a separate 20 amp circuit near
a window for an A/C, but the one 20 amp circuit for all of the outlets will
probably suffice with today's energy efficient air conditioners unless they
are very large rooms. Pigtail the receptacles instead of feeding through
each device for less maintenance down the road.
Current code calls for all bedroom outlets (As well as other areas) to be
tamper resistant. Even if they are not required in your area I would still
put them in. They prevent children from sticking things into the outlets.
How about posting pictures of the whole job and during different stages of
the project?
RBM
"John Grabowski" <jgra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4d7697b1$0$12996$607e...@cv.net...
I don't know John, when I was around eight, I stuck a cut off lamp cord into
an outlet. Flames shot out of the cut off end and scared the snot out of me,
so I yanked the plug out. Couple of seconds later, I plugged that sucker
right back in again, although this time nothing happened. Then I grew up and
became an electrician... go figure
>
>
bob haller
Since code will almost certinally require insulation in a full gut
job, and moving all those radiators:(
How old is the boiler?
RBM
"bob haller" <hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:acaac750-dcdb-4e21...@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
First, why are you asking me?
Second, since when is forced air considered an upgrade to hot water?
Third, it's a rental which may not warrant central air
aemeijers
I'm a wimp- I'd do without indoor plumbing before I'd do without central
air. But that is just me. If the place is a gut job, I'd definitely have
the HVAC contractor cost it out both ways before I made a decision. If
there are more than a couple weeks of hot weather each year at OP's
location, central AC will definitely make it easier to rent and/or get a
better price. Do they still do those systems with tiny high-pressure
ducts, for retrofit to steam/water heated places?
Not a fan of hot water heat, personally. I like to have air moving
around, more than convection provides.
--
aem sends...
RBM
"aemeijers" <aeme...@att.net> wrote in message
news:kfKdneTWZcfQJuvQ...@giganews.com...
Central air is just one more thing that the owner must pay for and maintain.
It may be worth the investment, but then again this may be a section 8
situation, where it would become one more thing for the tenants to trash.
RogerT
news:4d7697b1$0$12996$607e...@cv.net...
> *Since it is going to be a rental unit you should expect the worst from
> your tenants. You don't want them running extension cords or blowing
> breakers from electric heaters or air conditioners. Put each bedroom's
> outlets on a separate 20 amp circuit and make some of them double duplexes
> (Quads). You can go the extra mile and install one quad on a separate 20
> amp circuit near a window for an A/C, but the one 20 amp circuit for all
> of the outlets will probably suffice with today's energy efficient air
> conditioners unless they are very large rooms.
I agree about trying to prevent future problems, especially since now is the
best time to include all of the possible outlets and cirucits that will
achieve that. I usually run a lot more than the minimum required number of
circuits, and I put less than the maximum number of allowable outlets on
each circuit. I also use nothing less than 12 guage wire in any circuit (no
14 guage anywhere), even though that may be overkill. And, with the
exception of circuits that require 20-amp breakers (such as kitchens), I use
15-amp circuit breakers even though the 12-guage wire would allow 20-amp
circuit breakers.
> Pigtail the receptacles instead of feeding through each device for less
> maintenance down the road.
I am not sure what pigtailing the receptacles means. I know about
pigtailing the grounds (which I learned here on this newsgroup), but I am
not sure about what pigtailing the receptacles means.
RogerT
news:acaac750-dcdb-4e21...@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
When I bought the property, I had the old oil-fired burner removed and I had
a new gas-red boiler put in. At the same time, I asked about forced air
heat and central air and the HVAC contractors recommended against it. They
said that given the way that the building is constructed, and being a full
3-story building with no real attic above the third floor, it would be
difficult to get cold air to really make it up to the third floor. Now that
everything is gutted down to the studs and ceiling joists, I guess I could
reconsider the idea of putting in duct work for central air. But, as much
as I like central air, I am not sure it would be worth the effort in this
case. As far as heating goes, I tend to think of "forced air" heat as being
"scorched air" heat -- very dry, and not as efficient or even heat system as
hot water cast iron radiator heat.
If I do end up framing out the exterior walls, moving the existing cast iron
radiators about 4+ inches won't be too difficult.
RogerT
>> "bob haller"<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:acaac750-dcdb-4e21...@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>> Has OP considered upgrading to forced air? with AC?
>>>
>>> Since code will almost certinally require insulation in a full gut
>>> job, and moving all those radiators:(
>>>
>>> How old is the boiler?
>>
>> First, why are you asking me?
>> Second, since when is forced air considered an upgrade to hot water?
>> Third, it's a rental which may not warrant central air
> . . . . . If the place is a gut job, I'd definitely have the HVAC
> contractor cost it out both ways before I made a decision.
Since the place is now completely gutted, I may do that. I trust the HVAC
contractor that I usually use, so it may be worth another look. But, my
hunch is that trying to run central air duct work for this 3-story property
may not be worth the cost and effort involved.
> . . . . Do they still do those systems with tiny high-pressure ducts, for
> retrofit to steam/water heated places?
Yes, they are still available.
RogerT
news:4d76c1ec$0$10373$607e...@cv.net...
>> air. But that is just me. If the place is a gut job, I'd definitely have
>> the HVAC contractor cost it out both ways before I made a decision. If
>> there are more than a couple weeks of hot weather each year at OP's
>> location, central AC will definitely make it easier to rent and/or get a
>> better price. Do they still do those systems with tiny high-pressure
>> ducts, for retrofit to steam/water heated places?
> Central air is just one more thing that the owner must pay for and
> maintain. It may be worth the investment, but then again this may be a
> section 8 situation, where it would become one more thing for the tenants
> to trash.
If I do decide to add central air, I don't think I would be too concerned
about tenants somehow trashing or breaking the central air system. The
tenants will be paying all utilities, and I always get the heating/AC
service contract that our local utility company offers. It makes life so
much easier when a tenant calls in the dead of winter saying they have no
heat, or in the heat of summer when they have no AC. I just call the
utility company and they come out the same day and figure it out. Not
everything is covered by the service contract, but most things are. And, by
having the service contract I don't have to worry about finding someone who
can come out and fix the problem.
aemeijers
Other alternative, of course, is to add holes for through-wall units on
each floor. I'd find that preferable to window units, especially window
units installed by amateur tenants 20-some feet above passing
pedestrians. I <hate> window AC units. Can't open window, and almost
every one I have ever seen rattles and leaks air and water in storms.
IIUC, the sizes are now enough of an industry standard, that finding
replacement units 10-15 years from now should not be a problem.
--
aem sends...
bob haller
> "RBM" <r...@live.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4d76c1ec$0$10373$607e...@cv.net...
>
>
>
> > "aemeijers" <aemeij...@att.net> wrote in message
My comments about AC was based on your installing or expecting window
units. They are a PIA, are tough on the new windows your planning on
installing, cost more to operate, and detract from the appearance of
the building, and central air is more comfy too.
with the building gutted this is great time to get AC
Personally I prefer forced air, its more responsive to changing the
thermostat, and elminates the intrusive radiators
Central air will be a positive at rental time
John Grabowski
*You just splice your feed-through wires together and then splice jumpers
onto those to feed your receptacles. That way the full load of the circuit
is not going through the receptacle. This causes the receptacle
terminations to be less affected by heat which can cause loosening of the
termination screws. Also if there is a problem with one receptacle it does
not affect the ones downstream.
bob haller
> >news:kfKdneTWZcfQJuvQ...@giganews.com...
> >> On 3/8/2011 5:06 PM, RBM wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
yep there was a incident on the news someone dropped a window unit
from a 3rd floor window and winged a pedestrian below, they were hurt
but one more step and would of been killed. I think they got hit by
just the power cord, but ended up in the hospital anyway
the water leaking in around a window unit can rot the sill and leak
into lower floors doing damage.
a gutted building..... its a no brainer to get central air
RogerT
>>> Pigtail the receptacles instead of feeding through each device for
>>> less maintenance down the road.
> I am not sure what pigtailing the receptacles means. I know about
> pigtailing the grounds (which I learned here on this newsgroup), but
> I am not sure about what pigtailing the receptacles means.
> *You just splice your feed-through wires together and then splice
> jumpers onto those to feed your receptacles. That way the full load
> of the circuit is not going through the receptacle. This causes the
> receptacle terminations to be less affected by heat which can cause
> loosening of the termination screws. Also if there is a problem with
> one receptacle it does not affect the ones downstream.
Thanks. That makes sense. Since I use 12-gauge wire, it is sometimes hard
getting all of the wires and the receptacle back into the boxes. I guess
doing the pigtailing adds maybe two more wires in the box, but I'll have to
try it that way to see how that works in terms of getting everything back
into the boxes.
RogerT
> John Grabowski wrote:
>> It sounds as though you have terracotta block. You can fish wires
>> through that if there isn't too much residual cement and debris
>> inside. You would have to cut holes for the boxes and then cement
>> them in place. The terracotta block can be hard. You may need an
>> angle grinder with a diamond blade to cut through it neatly. Instead
>> of cable, you could use flexible conduit to feed the box so that you
>> can add or replace wires down the road without having to remove the
>> box.
>
> It does look like terracotta blocks to me. If I get a chance, I'll
> try to get a good picture of it and post it. It is very easy to cut
> and/or break out, partly because the blocks are hollow. I already
> had to do that in a few areas for other work I was doing
Here are two photos I took that show the terracotta blocks:
http://i52.tinypic.com/29mnbk4.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/ygw9s.jpg
The first photo shows the dividing wall between the two properties. The
blocks in the center are for a dual chimney -- one for each of the two
properties. One either side of the chimney are the blocks for the actual
dividing wall. The chimney originally had framing just around that part.
Then a later owner must have framed out a wider section from the front wall
of the property (on the right) back past the chimney. So, on the sides, you
can see the old wallpaper before the newer framing covered it up. Where the
wallpaper is, it is just rough coat and finish coat plaster directly over
the block (like the rest of the exterior walls), then wallpaper on top of
the plaster. On the right is one of the cast iron radiators that is under
the front window.
The second photo is uptairs in another part of the house. It shows what
used to be another no-longer-used chimney chase -- which is also on the
dividing wall between the two properties. I knocked out the chimney way on
my side, and the only point of this picture is to show how the terracotta
blocks are hollow by showing some of the broken off blocks.
Evan
Your ancient heating system sounds like it could be retrofitted
now that you have opened everything up... What are the current
zones configured as ? Replumbing your system so that each
convector is on its own zone using Pex and some zone manifolds
will allow you save energy and have more comfortable tenants...
Since you would be taking apart all the convectors to replumb
them and establish a new thermostatically controlled zone
for each room, it wouldn't be that much trouble to adjust the
cavities they are installed in a few inches...
Better to do this work now while everything is opened up
because it will add thousands more to the bill when your
system eventually fails... Improving the controls for your
heating system combined with the new replacement
windows will result in even more energy savings compared
with heating ALL of the upstairs or downstairs until the
thermostat in the hallway is satisfied... Going the extra
mile and adding insulation to the walls as well couldn't
hurt...
~~ Evan
RogerT
> "RogerT" <Rog...@kjhgfghj.jkh> wrote:
>> I am planning a complete rewiring of a house that I own,....
>> .... One added problem with framing out the
>> exterior walls is that the house has hot water cast iron radiator
>> heat, and the radiators are, of course, on the exterior walls --
>> mostly under windows. So, if I frame out those walls, I will need to
>> move all of the radiators in about 4+ inches. That means plumbing
>> work, but since all of the other walls and ceilings are now open,
>> access to all of the radiator plumbing is easy.
> Your ancient heating system sounds like it could be retrofitted
> now that you have opened everything up... What are the current
> zones configured as ? Replumbing your system so that each
> convector is on its own zone using Pex and some zone manifolds
> will allow you save energy and have more comfortable tenants...
>
> Since you would be taking apart all the convectors to replumb
> them and establish a new thermostatically controlled zone
> for each room, it wouldn't be that much trouble to adjust the
> cavities they are installed in a few inches...
>
> Better to do this work now while everything is opened up
> because it will add thousands more to the bill when your
> system eventually fails... Improving the controls for your
> heating system combined with the new replacement
> windows will result in even more energy savings compared
> with heating ALL of the upstairs or downstairs until the
> thermostat in the hallway is satisfied... Going the extra
> mile and adding insulation to the walls as well couldn't
> hurt...
>
> ~~ Evan
Interesting thought. Thanks. I hadn't thought about creating zoned
heating. This is a 3-story house which is presently all on one single
zone..
Are you suggesting doing all new pex plumbing to the cast iron radiators,
using a home run system to each individual radiator (or at least to each
room/zone, and a thermostat for each radiator or room/zone)? Or, maybe I
could just create 3 or 4 zones -- one for the third floor, one for the
second floor, and one or two for the first floor (the first floor has a
separate heated porch area with French doors to the house, so maybe that
would be on a separate zone from the rest of the first floor).
If I remember correctly, the type of pex that is used for cast iron
radiators is Pex-Aluminum-Pex (Pex-Al-Pex).
I have seen (on TV) thermostat controls that go on individual cast iron
radiators, and I guess a similar device with a wall-mounted thermostat that
controls the valve may exist.
Once I get started doing these types of projects, I do have a tendancy to
say, "Well, since we're already doing X, now would be the best to to go
ahead and also do Y. So, your suggestion fits right into my usual way of
thinking.
Now that all of the walls and ceiling are open, I'll have to give some real
thought to all of the possible heating and cooling options. I do have a
couple of HVAC people that I trust who I can get to look at the house and
give me their suggestions and the pros and cons for each option.
Evan
Zoned heating is more efficient, you don't have to heat the rooms you
aren't using -- in a home where the thermostats are located in a
hallway
the heating plant has to work hard to get that area warm enough to
satisfy the thermostat while dealing with the heat losses in each
room...
If you wanted to keep your cast iron radiators, yes... A new homerun
loop to each radiator/convector location is the best idea... All
fittings
and connections are kept in visible areas that way -- I have seen
people
use Pex as if it were normal pipe using numerous fittings and burying
those fittings in walls... While that is allowable, using Pex in that
manner
totally disregards the reason why Pex was designed, to provide
unbroken
loops for in-floor heating, so using it with fittings along a run
totally
ignores the way it was designed to be used... You are correct in your
remembering the special type of Pex which must be used if you have
any ferrous metals in your piping system...
There may be other heating options available to you since you have
gutted your home at this point, it is just a matter of expense...
You could look at underfloor radiant heating at this point... You
could
look at a mini-ducted forced air system which uses air handler units
and can both heat and cool (which would reduce the number of
electrical circuits you would need to provide in anticipation of
tenants using window units)...
Whatever option you decide on, just make sure you go that little
extra effort to make things up in a workmanlike manner, things
will be easier to maintain in the future... If you decide to go with
a ducted system, go the extra mile and properly seal all the
connections and fittings -- I think most people would be shocked
at how "leaky" their heating/cooling ducts are in a typical house,
the tighter and better insulated any ducts are, the less money
you are spending on conditioning the air in areas of your home
where you won't be enjoying it like inside an unfinished basement
and inside the cavities of your walls...
Don't cheap out -- insulate EVERYTHING now that the walls are
open... If you use mineral wool insulation you will not only add
the insulating value you were looking for but also additional fire
protection and sound deadening... This is useful in interior walls
as well as any walls which may be shared with the other unit
on the common wall...
~~ Evan
John Grabowski
*Deeper boxes will help with pushing the wires back in. On jobs where I use
all #12 I sometimes use stranded wires for the pigtails. That makes it very
easy to push the devices into the box, but I have rolls of stranded on my
truck already. It may not be worth your while to buy some stranded unless
you get a good deal on short rolls at Home Depot.
John Grabowski
*Thanks for the pictures Roger. The terracotta blocks are just the way I
remember them. Good luck with the project and keep a photo documentary so
you can post for all of us when you are finished.