Buried Electrical Wiring in Yard

[Norminn]

Our new-to-us home has a garden and koi pond at the back of the
property. The pond uses a submersible pump and, in winter, a heater to
melt hole in ice. Switch for the present wiring is in garage, which
(I'm guessing) is about 70 feet from the pond. The wire/cable is white,
like two round sections with a flat white section between them. Outlet
(yikes!!) is an outdoorsy looking thing with a metal back and a plastic
cover....it is not fastened to anything for support, just basking on
some rock near the pump/filter. No GFCI. Yike again.

I would like, eventually (fairly soon, like by next spring), install
underground lines for water and for electricity for use at the pond and
the garden. There is a septic field between the house and garden, so
that is (I think) a consideration. When I had a chandelier installed by
an electrician, I asked him about installing underground electric, and
he told me it must be 4' down....I haven't found anything online today
that addresses that....several articles that recommend burying line
12-18", using conduit, RF line, etc.

We had an electric line changed from 220 to 120 when we installed gas
range, so need to re-study what breakers control what in the house, as
those marked on the breaker box may be wrong. Indiana doesn't require
electricians be licensed.... The garage wiring (and pond) may be on the
same circuit as kitchen. Have yet to blow a breaker.

Questions: How deep are gas and electric lines (from utility)
buried..we had 811 mark them, but no idea of the depth. When we had
cable installed (TV and internet), the guy ran a little thing that put
the cable barely into the sod (and cut my puny little 1/4" water line to
the pond). Is cable supposed to be a minimum depth? The cable layout
really screwed my plans for planting shrub and flower beds.

[dpb]

On 5/11/2013 10:14 AM, Norminn wrote:
...

> ... install

> underground lines for water and for electricity for use at the pond and
> the garden. There is a septic field between the house and garden, so
> that is (I think) a consideration. When I had a chandelier installed by
> an electrician, I asked him about installing underground electric, and
> he told me it must be 4' down....I haven't found anything online today
> that addresses that....several articles that recommend burying line
> 12-18", using conduit, RF line, etc.

Unless it's been modified (which I sorta' doubt but didn't verify) NEC
says underground electrical must be 24" _except_ for residential where
if is a branch circuit rather than service entrance and has circuit
protection of 30A or less, then the req'd depth is 12". As always, if
you're concerned about Code compliance, local reqm'ts may differ.

...

--

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

There are devices that put a hiogh-frequency signal onto power lines
and a matching detector to trace the general direction/routing of the
wire. Find an electrician friend who has one of these and use it to
mark the route of the present line. When you find the route, mark it
with paint and then take a number of photos so you have a record. You
can run the new line in over the septic fiekd drain lines, most drain
line are more than 12" below the surface. Also, do your digging with
a manual shovel, not some neighbor with a front loader who will just
dig up whatever is inthe ground. ANd, since the load on the power
line is faily small, you can use more wire and route the lines away
from wherever you think you might be digging in the futue. Just
document with photos where everything is. We had some work done here
45+ years ago and I have some 45+ year-old photos of the work that
still come in handy every few years.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Actually I believe the reqt is that the circuit must be GFCI
protected and 20A or less, then 12" is OK for direct burial
cable. That should suffice for the application. If there is
the possibility of any service wires, cable, phone, etc in
the path of the cable, the local markout folks should be
called. Around here there is one number and they do it
for all the utilites for free.

[dpb]

He said they already were/have been out iirc...

I'm too old for all the GFCI stuff; I learned my Code before were around
so perhaps it has been reworded. As exterior branch circuit newer Code
would require it be GFCI-protected irrespective of depth currently.

As for whether it's 30 or 20A I'm having trouble thinking they would
have changed that part on the depth, but anything's possible...as noted,
it'll be local Code that controls, anyway, so OP should check w/ local
and ask the appropriate folks...

--

[Norminn]

We have 20A. I was surprised to see there was no GFCI on the line to
the pump, as the house is really up to snuff and well done. Even passed
our energy audit with no dings. I called 811 to mark utilities because
I wanted to hire someone to till sod for shrub/flower beds (we have way,
way more grass than anyone needs :o) Also considering putting in a
bocce court. Ennyhoo, the 811 lady said they don't mark owner-installed
stuff, but the pond electric is probably straight line. Dang thing goes
under a mortared rock border 'round pond. In my Googling, I saw a neat
gadget called a pipe puller....

My major challenge, other than planting shrubs and veg. garden, has been
cleaning algae from pond....emptied about 1/2, two days in a row, and
vacuumed algae hanging on the walls of pond. Day after first cleaning
was the first I set eyes on my koi....long winter's nap....the former
owner said there were six, but I'm pretty sure there are seven. Largest
about 1'. At 1" of koi per 10 gal. of water, I'm over capacity by a
good deal. Got a water lily, growing fast, so it is using some fish
waste and the spring algae growth may be ending. It is hard to fine
info about koi that doesn't include advert., but I'm thinking there must
be a pretty good balance between koi and plants without all kinds of
treatments. Filter media is $10 sq. ft. at pet store, but window screen
gets just about as much.

[Norminn]

I don't believe they enforce ANY local code around here....no setbacks,
no junk limit, no problem with abandoned buildings ready to fall
down....but it isn't too close to home.

[Frank]

I've got both cable and FIOS lines to the house and neither are probably
more than six inches under ground. Even the cable and FIOS people have
cut each others lines on installs.

Years ago I hit the electric line running up the street when planting a
tree and believe it is only about a foot down.

[dpb]

On 5/11/2013 11:26 AM, Norminn wrote:
...

> I don't believe they enforce ANY local code around here....no setbacks,
> no junk limit, no problem with abandoned buildings ready to fall
> down....but it isn't too close to home.

For in a yard I'd not worry about it much altho unless it were a really
long pull I'd probably try to route it along an edge so isn't adding to
the clutter where may be sprinkler system, the sewer lines, etc., etc.,
that would be in way of in servicing them down the road.

In that case and if there is no inspection, I'd just do basically like
the cable guy and put it deep enough to not be going to get it w/ the
casual digging of an annual bulb planting and the like but not worry
about real depth as there's little reason to be digging in turf areas.

And, of course, as another respondent noted; make drawings of where
stuff is. Running it in conduit is certainly a way to add some comfort,
obviously.

--

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sat, 11 May 2013 12:23:51 -0400, Norminn <nor...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>
>We have 20A. I was surprised to see there was no GFCI on the line to
>the pump, as the house is really up to snuff and well done. Even passed
>our energy audit with no dings.

First, you know the energy guys won't be checking for GFCI.

It is possible you still have GFCI if it is downstream from a bathroom
circuit or other GFCI circuit in the house. Check to see how it was
done. It does sort of sound like a hack job, but maybe you got lucky.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On May 11, 12:23 pm, Norminn <norm...@earthlink.net> wrote:

You said the outlet for the pump is not secured, just laying
on a rock. The cable is in several sections.....
So, why would you be surprised that there is no GFCI?

 Even passed
> our energy audit with no dings.

An energy auditer is there to look at energy issues, not
to make sure your property is up to electrical code,
about which they aren't expected to have any knowledge.

I called 811 to mark utilities because
> I wanted to hire someone to till sod for shrub/flower beds (we have way,
> way more grass than anyone needs :o)  Also considering putting in a
> bocce court.  Ennyhoo, the 811 lady said they don't mark owner-installed
> stuff,

That is normal.

but the pond electric is probably straight line.  Dang thing goes
> under a mortared rock border 'round pond. In my Googling, I saw a neat
> gadget called a pipe puller....

Probably doesn't matter if you're going to replace it
and do it right.

[tra...@optonline.net]

> tree and believe it is only about a foot down.- Hide quoted text -
>

Cable and FIOS are one thing. An electric utility wire
buried only a foot deep is another and clearly a major
code violation. At least here in the USA

[dadiOH]

Norminn wrote:

> I don't believe they enforce ANY local code around here....no
> setbacks, no junk limit, no problem with abandoned buildings ready to
> fall down....but it isn't too close to home.

Just like Florida, huh? :)

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[dadiOH]

Norminn wrote:

> Largest about 1'. At 1" of koi per 10 gal. of
> water, I'm over capacity by a good deal. Got a water lily, growing
> fast, so it is using some fish waste and the spring algae growth may
> be ending. It is hard to fine info about koi that doesn't include
> advert., but I'm thinking there must be a pretty good balance between
> koi and plants without all kinds of treatments. Filter media is $10
> sq. ft. at pet store, but window screen gets just about as much.

One nice thing about koi is that they are carp and carp aren't as fussy
about water conditions as some.

Re filter, I have no experience with them but a neighbor built a pond and
pumped through several layers of fiberglass (like AC filters).
Periodically, he'd take them out, wash out the top, dirty ones and reorder
them in the stack (they were in a steel barrel).

[micky]

On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:14:25 -0400, Norminn <nor...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Our new-to-us home has a garden and koi pond at the back of the
>property. The pond uses a submersible pump and, in winter, a heater to
>melt hole in ice. Switch for the present wiring is in garage, which
>(I'm guessing) is about 70 feet from the pond. The wire/cable is white,
>like two round sections with a flat white section between them. Outlet
>(yikes!!) is an outdoorsy looking thing with a metal back and a plastic
>cover....it is not fastened to anything for support, just basking on
>some rock near the pump/filter.

I wouldn't worry about this. I leave an extension cord out lying on
the ground, about 8 months a year, for the last 15 years, Including
in the rain. . Some years I left it out all winter, under the snow.
It's never tripped the circuit breaker. FWIW, when it's wet, I am
careful to pick it up at least 2 feet from the end, and I've never
felt a thing.

> No GFCI. Yike again.

Of course that would only do something if the ground was bad, and
since all this stuff just sits there, not too likely.

>
>I would like, eventually (fairly soon, like by next spring), install
>underground lines for water and for electricity for use at the pond and
>the garden. There is a septic field between the house and garden, so
>that is (I think) a consideration. When I had a chandelier installed by
>an electrician, I asked him about installing underground electric, and
>he told me it must be 4' down....I haven't found anything online today
>that addresses that....several articles that recommend burying line
>12-18", using conduit, RF line, etc.
>
>We had an electric line changed from 220 to 120 when we installed gas
>range, so need to re-study what breakers control what in the house, as
>those marked on the breaker box may be wrong. Indiana doesn't require
>electricians be licensed.... The garage wiring (and pond) may be on the
>same circuit as kitchen. Have yet to blow a breaker.
>
>Questions: How deep are gas and electric lines (from utility)
>buried..we had 811 mark them, but no idea of the depth. When we had
>cable installed (TV and internet), the guy ran a little thing that put
>the cable barely into the sod (and cut my puny little 1/4" water line to
>the pond). Is cable supposed to be a minimum depth?

Deep enough the lawn mower won't cut it. When I had cable, it too
was put in like yours. I forget the tool used, a vibrator or
something. Maybe a tickler. I'm sure you can rent one. In your
other post I see you want to use a tiller, So maybe just pull up the
cable, disconnect it from your house, and run it where you want it,
away from the beds, next to the wall or something. Buy a length of
outdoor co-axial cable, connect it with a female-female connector,
wrap it in the silicon tape referred to bellow, bury it all, and then
connect back to the house.

Or maybe call the cable company and say you want to use a tiller,
didnt' realize this when they were there, and how much woudl they
charge to come out and do it again. Who knows, maybe they'll do it
for free.

>The cable layout
>really screwed my plans for planting shrub and flower beds.

Don't let it do that. TV cable is not something special, like if you
dug and uncovered the CERN Collider. The voltage is tiny, for one
thing. You can put your hand on the center lead and the ground and
you won't feel a thing. The installer may have left a foot of
slack in the box on your wall where the cable came out of the ground,
but even if he didn't, it will only take a tiny bit of extra length to
dig a little trench below the cable and and let it lie a few inches
lower where you want to plant flowers. Or better yet, you can just
plant your flowers and shrubs around the cable. The flower and shrub
roots will not hurt it (they'll just detour when the reach something
that's not dirt, like they do when they reach the side of a sidewalk
or the foundation wall of the house) and if perchance after 30 years
a problem ariises, I think the cable company will repair it for free
and won't ask which came first, the shrubs or the cable.

You can even cut the cable and put your own F connectors on the cut
ends (You can borrow a crimping tool or buy a cheap one. It comes in
handy. The self-screw (don't need crimping) F-connectors have never
worked for me.) , then put 3 or 6 feet of extra cable, and wrap the
whole thing with silicon tape. There are other names for this, but
it's tape you stretch to 3 times its length when putting on, and it
pulls back, making a very tight connection. Wrap it around 2 or 3
times and within a few days, it merges into one waterproof blob that
you can bury. In my experience the tape comes wrapped on a white
plastic spool, instead of a cardboard one.

My cable inslaller left a foot in the box and he folded it tightly,
which he shoudlnt' have. Sharp bends tend to make signal rebound
locations which can put ghosts in the tv image. But his didn't so
maybe he knows more about it than I do**. Still, when you bury the
extra 3 feet, let the cable spread out instead of bending or wrapping
it tightly. The cable doesn't have to go in a straight line.

**Or maybe he didn't. I wanted the cable box in the closet, 5 feet
from the tv, instead of where I could see it. The cable itself came
in through the closet so it was no more work for him, but he said he
wasn't sure the cable signal out of the box could go the extra 5 feet.
He seemed sincere and he did it for me so he had no reason to lie.
Later when I was running more cable through the basement ceiling, I
had the cable running 3 times the length of the house, about 120
feet, and it worked fine.

If necessary, more questions can be asked at sci.electronics.repair.

[micky]

On Sat, 11 May 2013 12:23:51 -0400, Norminn <nor...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>

>My major challenge, other than planting shrubs and veg. garden, has been
>cleaning algae from pond....emptied about 1/2, two days in a row, and
>vacuumed algae hanging on the walls of pond. Day after first cleaning
>was the first I set eyes on my koi....long winter's nap....the former
>owner said there were six, but I'm pretty sure there are seven. Largest
>about 1'. At 1" of koi per 10 gal. of water, I'm over capacity by a

We had a really tiny pond. 5' wide by 3' feet horizontally deep, by
8" vertically deep. Cement bottom. My mother wanted water lillies
but they were expensive. We got a turtle, 1.5 inches long, and the
first day it walked out of the pond and maybe we never saw it again.
Although about 5 years later, there was a 8" long 6" high turtle in
our yard. Don't know where it came from.

[Robert]

I would suggest using UF type wire AND putting it in some
PVC pipe, probably 3/4 dia, so that if you should dig
into it while planting a shrub someday, you will hit the PVC
and avoid nicking the UF wire, regardless of the depth....
You don't have to make joints and connectors with the
PVC since it is being used only as an open conduit
and that makes it cheap and easy. The UF will be
resistand to anything that is going to happen...

Just a suggestion, which works well for me, who is
always digging around with a shovel somewhere....

[Norminn]

Only GFCI in house is for bathroom(s)...the outlet is in one, but they
are back to back. I wrote it down somewhere....will get the main panel
labelled properly soon. After the veg. garden gets planted. Only hack
job in this home, as far as I can tell, is wiring to garage and pond.
And the dang 1/4" water line to the pond. The pond had plastic fence
all around, as one of the prev. owners' children is autistic. Got rid
of one section today, as I am too old to climb the thing every time I
want to talk to the fish or plant something :o)

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

On May 11, 3:35 pm, Norminn <norm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 5/11/2013 1:42 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > On Sat, 11 May 2013 12:23:51 -0400, Norminn <norm...@earthlink.net>

> want to talk to the fish or plant something :o)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Be careful about that fence. A pond is an "Attractive Nuisance" and
you may be liable for aynone that gets hurt, neighborhood kids, etc.
Check with your insurance agent!!!!!

[tra...@optonline.net]

On May 11, 3:45 pm, micky <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:14:25 -0400, Norminn <norm...@earthlink.net>

> wrote:
>
> >Our new-to-us home has a garden and koi pond at the back of the
> >property.  The pond uses a submersible pump and, in winter, a heater to
> >melt hole in ice.  Switch for the present wiring is in garage, which
> >(I'm guessing) is about 70 feet from the pond.  The wire/cable is white,
> >like two round sections with a flat white section between them.  Outlet
> >(yikes!!) is an outdoorsy looking thing with a metal back and a plastic
> >cover....it is not fastened to anything for support, just basking on
> >some rock near the pump/filter.
>
> I wouldn't worry about this.  I leave an extension cord out lying on
> the ground, about 8 months a year, for the last 15 years,   Including
> in the rain.  .   Some years I left it out all winter, under the snow.
> It's never tripped the circuit breaker.  FWIW, when it's wet, I am
> careful to pick it up at least 2 feet from the end, and I've never
> felt a thing.
>
> >  No GFCI.  Yike again.
>
> Of course that would only do something if the ground was bad, and
> since all this stuff just sits there, not too likely.
>
>

A GFCI does not depend on a ground. It trips on a
current imbalance between hot and neutral. And not sure
what the part about "all this stuff just sits there" has to do
with a good ground. What is there now is installed half-assed,
so who knows what anyone did.

>
>
>
>
>
> >I would like, eventually (fairly soon, like by next spring), install
> >underground lines for water and for electricity for use at the pond and
> >the garden.  There is a septic field between the house and garden, so
> >that is (I think) a consideration.  When I had a chandelier installed by
> >an electrician, I asked him about installing underground electric, and
> >he told me it must be 4' down....I haven't found anything online today
> >that addresses that....several articles that recommend burying line
> >12-18", using conduit, RF line, etc.
>
> >We had an electric line changed from 220 to 120 when we installed gas
> >range, so need to re-study what breakers control what in the house, as
> >those marked on the breaker box may be wrong.  Indiana doesn't require
> >electricians be licensed....  The garage wiring (and pond) may be on the
> >same circuit as kitchen.  Have yet to blow a breaker.
>
> >Questions:  How deep are gas and electric lines (from utility)
> >buried..we had 811 mark them, but no idea of the depth.  When we had
> >cable installed (TV and internet), the guy ran a little thing that put
> >the cable barely into the sod (and cut my puny little 1/4" water line to
> >the pond).  Is cable supposed to be a minimum depth?
>
> Deep enough the lawn mower won't cut it.   When I had cable, it too
> was put in like yours.  I forget the tool used, a vibrator or
> something.   Maybe a tickler.  I'm sure you can rent one.

Per NEC, the cable to the pond needs to be minimum
of 12" deep. It's an energized 120V circuit, not cable TV.

 In your
> other post I see you want to use a tiller,   So maybe just pull up the
> cable, disconnect it from your house, and run it where you want it,
> away from the beds, next to the wall or something.  Buy a length of
> outdoor co-axial cable, connect it with a female-female connector,
> wrap it in the silicon tape referred to bellow, bury it all, and then
> connect back to the house.

It's a circuit for a pond pump, not cable TV.

[micky]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 05:54:25 -0700 (PDT), "tra...@optonline.net"
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>
>> >Questions: �How deep are gas and electric lines (from utility)
>> >buried..we had 811 mark them, but no idea of the depth. �When we had
>> >cable installed (TV and internet), the guy ran a little thing that put
>> >the cable barely into the sod (and cut my puny little 1/4" water line to
>> >the pond). �Is cable supposed to be a minimum depth?

She's talking about cable tv here, and so I answered about cable tv.

>>
>> Deep enough the lawn mower won't cut it. � When I had cable, it too
>> was put in like yours. �I forget the tool used, a vibrator or
>> something. � Maybe a tickler. �I'm sure you can rent one.
>
>Per NEC, the cable to the pond needs to be minimum
>of 12" deep. It's an energized 120V circuit, not cable TV.
>

......
>
>�In your

>> other post I see you want to use a tiller, � So maybe just pull up the
>> cable, disconnect it from your house, and run it where you want it,
>> away from the beds, next to the wall or something. �Buy a length of
>> outdoor co-axial cable, connect it with a female-female connector,
>> wrap it in the silicon tape referred to bellow, bury it all, and then
>> connect back to the house.
>
>It's a circuit for a pond pump, not cable TV.

In her other post she talked about using a tiller in the flower beds,
where the tv cable had been run. She asked about more than the pond
pump.

[John]

I would use conduit for protection. When I first moved into this house
some numbnuts had run underground cable (no conduit) under a flower bed.
One of the first things the wife wanted in spring is to redo the flower
beds, you can guess what happened. Shovel (was) sharp but survived, had
to pitch the underware ;)

John

[Robert Macy]

Here in Arizona, we recently installed code approved underground cable
to a well head.
Cost of $5,000 [cheap] to go about 150 feet. including wiring and
metering connection to APS utilities.
The ditch required minimum depth [can't remember] and this caught me
off guard, minimum width! [also can't remember]
But it took some guy with a major piece of equipment to dig the trench
for over half a day. Plus, WE chiseled out the solid boulders hit here
and there. Just to meet the depth/width reuqirements.
However, the wiring looked like standard underground cable you can buy
at HD. That 10 Gauge two conductor stuff with GND.

You're not attaching directly to the AC Utilities, so you should be
able to do your own. Put in proper GFCI breaker setup, get a trencher,
dig the minimum depth and width [going around your septic
requirements], and drop in such a cable to lay in 'once and for all'
power to your pond. Put inside a conduit, or not? *IF* you do, arch
the conduit [like a piece of plumbing pipe] so that at each end water
can run out to a void area underground [upside down plastic 'bubble'.]
Seems like a lot of extra effort, but long run will be worth it. And,
I mean long run. The problem can be seen, just envision a conduit that
goes down, comes back up, as though it were a buried water hose with
wires running through it. Long term collect water and just asking for
trouble.
If me, I'd use heavy pvc conduit to shield the cable [cables cost way
too much to allow accidental nicking] That way, if you forget and
accidentally hit the pvc it's sacrificial.