What is max service temperature of GE Silicone II sealant caulking?
Sum Guy
furnace (instead of using duct tape or aluminized tape). This is for
seams in the usual places where air tends to leak out of the duct work
and where the furnace connects to the ducts. This is not for the flue.
I expect the max temperature to be around 200C, and mostly between 50C
and 100C.
I was searching the net for specs on GE's various sealant products, but
can't find very much about max service temperature.
Here's an example of what I can buy at home depot (Canada):
This might be different than what's available in the USA (perhaps only
the label is different, or maybe the formulation is different - I don't
know).
Home Depot in Canada doesn't sell a caulking / sealant product that's
specifically labeled as "high temperature", or furnace, stove or HVAC
duct use.
What I did find at HD is 3 different 3M caulk products, labelled
variously as "Fire Barrier" Sealant IC 15WB (and two others that had a
similar application). These are designed or marketed as sealants that
are applied in drywall seams and around pipes and wires as they pass
through walls (drywall, brick, cement, etc) and I guess they're meant to
contain fire or smoke for maybe an hour or two. I did find on-line
cheps for one of them - and it had a paltry max service temperature of
48C.
I imagine that a job-shop HVAC supplier would probably have high-temp
caulking, but I'm just curious if something like the GE Silicone II
would do just as well (200C really isin't high-temp).
Frank
I used a clear silicone, think it was the type I, to seal around glass
doors on fire place. Holds up well.
Sum Guy
> Well considering your hight temp cut off is around 90c I would
> work with that figure.
There are seams that run close to where the flue exits the furnace that
will quite likely exceed 100C for extended periods.
Jim Yanik
go to any auto parts store and buy the High-temp gasket stuff made by
Permatex. It will tell you on the package it's max temp ratings.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Sjouke Burry
silicon and you can sort of verify that with a
soldering iron.
That should not make it melt down.
At higher temps it turns into a white powder, without
melting, and starts smouldering..
Joe
Years ago GE made a silicone sealant with red iron oxide filler that
was rated for high temperature service. IIRC, there are still versions
of this material available in auto parts stores and perhaps industrial
supply houses. Silicone II in my experience is not a very good product
compared to the the original types.
Joe
The Daring Dufas
Industrial and commercial cooking equipment supply houses sell high temp
silicone sealant. What I have used is red in color it will handle up to
500�F. Look at Dow Corning 736.
http://www.dowcorning.com/content/publishedlit/80-3258.pdf
TDD
ransley
> would do just as well (200C really isin't high-temp).
Buy the Duct oastic sealer made for that job, its in gallon tubs and
costs 1/5th to 1/3rd what silicone costs. The work is done every day
by pros and they dont use expensive silicone. This stuff you just use
a putty knife and it goes fast.
Sum Guy
> Buy the Duct oastic sealer made for that job, its in gallon tubs
> and costs 1/5th to 1/3rd what silicone costs.
Is it available in Canada?
Is it sold at retail, over the counter, at a place that's open past 5 pm
weekdays or open saturday?
Is it sold at only one place in my city, clear across town in industrial
east end?
Or did you factor in any of that criteria?
Sum Guy
sold at the big-box stores would stand up to extended exposure to high
temperatures.
According to this:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/GE-Waterproof-Sealant-4UH03?Pid=search
Grainger is listing the temp range of that product as being -65f to
400f. It appears to be the same product as this:
But I would love to track down an actual GE technical spec sheet for it.
ransley
Why should I factor in anything, im trying you give you help, a proven
method, but your just being an ass. Anyway, Here I can get it retail,
over the counter, at a place open till 8 on even sunday, and its not
to far from me, sure you have it in Canada, so have fun looking, jerk.
Hot Soup
>I'd still just like to know how the home-owner-grade silicone caulking
>sold at the big-box stores would stand up to extended exposure to high
>temperatures.
Like ransley said, mastic is what you need. It's sold at Home
Depot/Lowes/etc in the States...dunno about Canada. Look in the aisle
with the ductwork pieces.
Silicone will work if you like paying more for less. Your call.
Supply temps for a forced air furnace aren't 'high temp' - maybe 120F.
That's well within the range of silicones.
Sum Guy
> > I'd still just like to know how the home-owner-grade silicone
> > caulking sold at the big-box stores would stand up to extended
> > exposure to high temperatures.
>
> Like ransley said, mastic is what you need.
It's not the ductwork that I want to seal. It's more like the furnace
itself, where the plenum meets the furnace, even some places inside the
furnace cabinet, places that run close to some very hot surfaces, places
where it would be hard to get a trowel into, places where a nozzle could
easily reach and inject material.
> Silicone will work if you like paying more for less. Your call.
One tube of silicone for maybe $6 - $8 vs I-don't-know for a pail of
mastic. It's not the $$$ that's the issue here.
Evan
"Places inside the furnace" which probably have no business being
"sealed up" as they were not sealed at the factory...
You do realize that even if you use mastic to seal the joints and
seams
in your duct work that mastic would have to be reapplied every time
someone opens up those ducts to do service...
Why do you feel the need to make your furnace unit more difficult to
take apart by adding silicone caulking to it in areas where it doesn't
need to have it applied...
The goal is to seal the duct work to prevent conditioned air (whether
heated or cooled) from leaking out into unconditioned spaces whether
that be your basement or attic... Attempting to apply sealant onto
parts of the furnace unit where the heated or cooled air are not
exposed to is a foolhardy endeavor which will not result in any
energy savings whatsoever...
As to your questions in your first posting:
NO, the "fire barrier" sealant is not that kind of caulking... It
fills gaps
where wires, pipes, etc. penetrate a wall and will expand to seal
tightly
around those penetrations when it gets heated by a fire and such
sealants are considered "intumescent" and used in passive fire
protection in the manner described...
Using silicone caulking on duct work seems to be silly since there is
another product which is used by competent professionals for the
one of the situations you wish to apply the silicone caulking to...
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453059205
Is what you need to find... I am sure that you should be able to
find a source for that mastic in Canada -- it may have simply
been a matter of NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING FOR...
~~ Evan
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -
You told him Mastic, thats a mistake, now he will want you find a
store that has it, to pick him up, drive him to a store that has it,
buy him a burger, drive him home and show him how to use it, all for
free. But this guy should be paying for your advice now
Sum Guy
> > It's not the ductwork that I want to seal. It's more like the
> > furnace itself, where the plenum meets the furnace, even some
> > places inside the furnace cabinet, places that run close to
> > some very hot surfaces, places where it would be hard to get
> > a trowel into, places where a nozzle could easily reach and
> > inject material.
>
> "Places inside the furnace" which probably have no business
> being "sealed up" as they were not sealed at the factory...
It's a 30-year-old furnace. Lots of slop in how things fit in some
places. Rust in other places have opened up some seams.
> You do realize that even if you use mastic to seal the joints and
> seams in your duct work that mastic would have to be reapplied
> every time someone opens up those ducts to do service...
Hey, I'm not the one advocating mastic. But then again, I don't think
that ducts need to be opened up very often to do servicing...
> Why do you feel the need to make your furnace unit more difficult
> to take apart by adding silicone caulking to it in areas where
> it doesn't need to have it applied...
When there is air blowing through or being sucked through seams, I think
that's a good indication that it probably shouldn't happen. Like when
heated air is escaping through seams where the ductwork is connected to
the furnace. These are seams that are really never taken apart as part
of normal servicing. And if they ever are taken apart, it's probably to
replace something pretty substantial (like the entire furnace). It's
not like I'm going to silicone seal any service doors or panels
(hmmm...)
> The goal is to seal the duct work to prevent conditioned air
> (whether heated or cooled) from leaking out into unconditioned
> spaces whether that be your basement or attic...
And it's also to seal the ducts and passages that pull return air into
the furnace, to prevent the furnace fan from creating a negative air
pressure around the furnace that would lead to air being pulled down
from the flue and creating a reverse air flow in the burner chamber that
cause combustion flames to leap out of the combustion area and into the
area where the thermostat and gas valves are located, and heating and
melting any wiring in that area.
> Attempting to apply sealant onto parts of the furnace unit where
> the heated or cooled air are not exposed to is a foolhardy
> endeavor which will not result in any energy savings whatsoever..
Inside the furnace itself is where you will find places where
conditioned air can escape and where incoming return air passages are
not contained against leakage.
> Using silicone caulking on duct work
Again, it's not the ductwork (distribution runs) that I want to seal
with caulking. It's basicically any of the ductwork in the furnace room
itself, of which there is not really any ductwork as much as the main
distribution and collection plenums or manifolds, air-filter enclosure,
where those structures tie into the furnace, and even some places on or
in the furnace enclosure.
> seems to be silly since there is another product which is used
> by competent professionals for the one of the situations you
> wish to apply the silicone caulking to...
Again, that material might be fine and appropriate to apply during
initial ductwork fabrication and installation. It is not the
appropriate product to use for the situation I'm describing.
> http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453059205
>
> Is what you need to find...
Interesting item listed in it's specifications:
--------------
Odor: Will not contaminate sweet butter
--------------
I'll remember that next time I have some sweet butter nearby.
Doesn't really say anywhere if it's hard or flexible when cured.
Sum Guy
> You told him Mastic, thats a mistake, now he will want you find a
> store that has it,
No, because I don't want to use mastic.
I just want to know what the max service temperature that GE Silicone II
can be exposed to.
But nobody can answer that question, so they go off on tangents about
this mastic shit.
DanG
long haul. You would be better served to look into hard cast duct
sealant. It is normally applied with a paint brush, roller, or
putty knife. It is also offered in caulk tubes. Here is an
example:
www.hardcast.com/products/PDFS/broch/HCS_02_05.pdf--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
Keep the whole world singing . . .
"Sum Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote in message
news:4CD5D27E...@Guy.com...
Sum Guy
> Pure silicone is not good about staying stuck to materials for the
> long haul. You would be better served to look into hard cast duct
> sealant.
I doubt that consumer-grade sealants are pure silicone. And besides,
the tub and bath and exterior door and window sealant product seem to
stick pretty well for the long haul.
Again, all I want to know is the max temperature that GE Silicone II
(door and window) can be continuously exposed to without breaking down,
running or coming off.
Smitty Two
You can answer it. Don't be so helpless. This is a DIY group, after all.
Stick a couple of pieces of 30 year old, rusty furnace-type metal
together with some GE Silicone II and expose it to some heat in your
oven.
Start at 200F for 3 hours, then crank it up in whatever increments you
feel like, leaving it for 3 hours each time. Use a couple of pairs of
pliers to test the integrity of the bond. Watch for fires, melting,
explosions, or any signs that the GE Silicone II might be morphing into
radioactive waste or alien life.
Publish an article detailing the results of your research on eHow, so
future generations will know to what temperature GE Silicone II can
safely be exposed. I'm going to be waiting, because I want to use it to
seal the leaks in my car's exhaust system.
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
Have you called GE? Look on their web site or look on the tube of
silicone, there is usually some number to call.
dpb
...
> Again, all I want to know is the max temperature that GE Silicone II
> (door and window) can be continuously exposed to without breaking down,
> running or coming off.
As you've been told multiple times, go to the GE web site and look up
the technical product data sheet for the specific material of interest.
If it isn't listed as suitable for the application, I'm sure GE will
have a high temperature product that would be.
You're really not trying here...
--
Sum Guy
> > Again, all I want to know is the max temperature that GE
> > Silicone II (door and window) can be continuously exposed
> > to without breaking down, running or coming off.
>
> As you've been told multiple times, go to the GE web site and
> look up the technical product data sheet for the specific material
> of interest.
I've looked there, and if they've posted those specs - I can't find
them.
> You're really not trying here...
I'm asking on the off chance someone here knows where the spec sheet
(not msds) for GE Silicone II might be found, or who otherwise might
already know the answer about max service temperature, or who might have
used it for a high temperature application (and by high temperature, I
don't mean 1000 f. More like 100 C to 200 C (200f to 400f).
If the fuckers at Home Depot carried a silicone calk labelled as
"high-temp" or if the fuckers at GE actually listed the max service
temperature on their fucking products then this thread wouldn't exist.
Evan
>
> --------------
> Odor: Will not contaminate sweet butter
> --------------
>
> I'll remember that next time I have some sweet butter nearby.
>
> Doesn't really say anywhere if it's hard or flexible when cured.
It is quite clear that you are one of the nit-wit engineer type
homeowners that gets hung up on specs and shit that no one
in real life gives a shit about...
The only part of your "furnace" that needs to be air tight in
the manner in which you speak of is the portion where the
plenum enters and the heat exchanger is located...
You NEED NOT seal the rest of the furnace air tight as
only the plenum (where the circulation fan is) and heat
exchanger which are part of the duct work need to be
sealed...
Again, if your furnace is that far gone that air comes out
of it "all over the place" then it has other issues...
If you seal it up so tightly like you are seeking to do,
it will no longer be able to draft air for combustion
and will cease working...
As far as the "the main distribution [trunk] and
collection [return air] plenums or manifolds,
air-filter enclosure, where those structures tie into
the furnace" that is all, umm what do you call it,
DUCT WORK...
Mastic is used by home energy auditors to seal
up leaky seams in existing duct work to improve
air flow (pressure) in the duct work and reduce
the losses of conditioned air escaping the ducts
through other than the intended air registers...
Apparently you have not the first clue of what
you are doing, nor what is actually important
here and seem fixated on performing a totally
unneeded and misguided repair to make your
furnace "look" better...
If you have any further need for the specs on
how whatever GE Silicone II product or whatever
will perform, call GE and ask for it if you can not
locate such information on the internet...
~~ Evan
Evan
> Evan wrote:
> > You do realize that even if you use mastic to seal the joints and
> > seams in your duct work that mastic would have to be reapplied
> > every time someone opens up those ducts to do service...
>
> Hey, I'm not the one advocating mastic. But then again, I don't think
> that ducts need to be opened up very often to do servicing...
ROFL...
I guess that you don't have a central AC unit anywhere in that duct
work at all... Those need to be opened up at least annually to have
the cooling coil in the plenum duct vacuumed and washed clean...
But hey, you sound like one of those guys who thinks that as long
as you keep changing the filters every so often you are getting all
of the dirty and crap out of your duct work...
Lol...
~~ Evan
Sum Guy
> It is quite clear that you are one of the nit-wit engineer type
> homeowners that gets hung up on specs and shit that no one
> in real life gives a shit about...
It's usually the case that "specs and shit" are some-what important when
it comes to how things operate, and for how long, and for how well.
> The only part of your "furnace" that needs to be air tight in
> the manner in which you speak of is the portion where the
> plenum enters and the heat exchanger is located...
Any box, duct or chamber that generates or experiences a negative or
positive pressure should be air tight.
> You NEED NOT seal the rest of the furnace air tight as
> only the plenum (where the circulation fan is) and heat
> exchanger which are part of the duct work need to be
> sealed...
bla bla bla.
Any box, duct or chamber that generates or experiences a negative or
positive pressure should be air tight.
> If you seal it up so tightly like you are seeking to do,
> it will no longer be able to draft air for combustion
> and will cease working...
The furnace room is supplied with a dedicated out-door air supply duct.
The return air ducting, plenum and fan chamber should not be able to
draw air from this combustion supply duct, because if it does then it
means a negative pressure is being created in the furnace room by the
furnace fan, and this negative pressure must relieve itself by drawing
air not only from the combustion supply duct but also the combustion
flue or stack. In my case, the flue stack is not a sealed system with
respect to the furnace and the furnace room, so a negative pressure in
the furnace room will lead to air being drawn down from the flue (and
the combustion air supply duct) into the furnace room and into the leaks
on the return-air side of the fan. Naturally, any reverse air flow in
the flue is not a good thing.
> Apparently you have not the first clue of what you are doing,
We all agree that sealing holes where air is leaking into or leaking
out-of makes the system more efficient, and even more safe to operate.
I just want to use a silicone-based caulk, and you and a few others are
going ape-shit over this mastic, even though I've said that the mastic
is too cumbersome to apply in small or tight spaces, and I don't know if
it dries hard or flexible (I would want flexible).
> nor what is actually important here and seem fixated on performing
> a totally unneeded and misguided repair to make your furnace "look"
> better...
I never said this was about appearance.
Twayne
Sum Guy <S...@Guy.com> typed:
Read the product labels and don't forget about expansion/contraction of the
metalwork. Personally I'd use the heat-resistant tape made for just such
things.
HTH,
Twayne`
zek
400 F is normal and Hi temp 500 F
chaniarts
what did GE say when you called the 800 number that's on every tube?
Bob F
> Sum Guy <S...@Guy.com> wrote in news:4CD5D27E...@Guy.com:
> Permatex. It will tell you on the package it's max temp ratings.
Or buy high-temp silicone at a woodstove store. My local plumbing store even
carries it. Works fine on wood stove exhaust pipe.
cwoli...@gmail.com
cwoli...@gmail.com
Terry Coombs
headers ? You have responded to a message that was posted over 15 years ago
!
--
Snag
Micky
clear, white, and black, but if I were putting it right on the
furnace, I'd use Hi-Temp silicone. Also called RTV Silicone. It
comes only in some strange shade of red. My humidifier was
dripping water on my flue "plenum" and that caused rust holes. I took
it to be welded, and the pro had retired and only some whipper snapper
was there. He tried his best but for every hole he patched, he
burned another hole. He overlaid it with a heavy sheet of metal but
that only fixed 3 of the 5 sides. So I used GE Hi-Temp silicone a
few years ago and I haven't look closely lately but I think it's as
good as new. I watched carefully the first week and the temp of the
burner, which iirc makes spit boil, didn't affect the silicone at all.
I also put it around where the burner meets the furnace, the ~18"
circular plate is bolted to the furnance. It seemed that space was
bigger than it should be and iirc hot air was coming out, air that
should have been going up the chimney.
You should be shopping iirc at an auto parts store, not a hardware
store. Also regular temp black is only available at auto parts
stores.
It's probably a lot more expensive per gallon than mastic, so that's
why people push mastic, but I only used 2 tubes, and I used a lot.
http://siliconesealantpro.com/high-temp-silicone-sealant/
I don't think you need to seal around the air filter or the intake.
Some of the air will sneak by unfiltered, but so what. Eventually it
will all go through the filter. It doesn't have to go through every
time. It's not like the filter catches every particle whenever the air
goes through. Depending on how cold it is and how much the furnace
runs, the air goes through maybe 20 times a day, so if it got fully
filtered the first time, there would be nothing to do the next 19
times or the 20 times tomorrow.
Micky
wrote:
>
>It's probably a lot more expensive per gallon than mastic, so that's
>why people push mastic,
going to use mastic for installations, so they think about using it
for repairs too. They also have an open gallon, so they don't have to
go out and buy a gallon, 128 oz., for a 6 oz. job.
>but I only used 2 tubes, and I used a lot.
drips.
Jack Reed
392 degrees Fahrenheit isn't really high-temp?
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Ed Pawlowski
> replying to Sum Guy, Jack Reed wrote:
> 392 degrees Fahrenheit isn't really high-temp?
>
searing a steak, not so much.
Tiago50
I know this is an old thread, but here is the data from the MSDS:
This product contains methylpolysiloxanes whic
h can generate formaldehyde at approximately 300
degrees Fahrenheit (150'C) and above, in atmosphe
res which contain oxygen. Formaldehyde is a
skin and respiratory sensitizer, eye and throat irrit
ant, acute toxicant, and potential cancer hazard. A
MSDS for formaldehyde is available from Mo
mentive., Methanol released during curing.
You might want to look at using another type of sealant.
--
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zil...@gmail.com
trader_4
added, so it's not suitable for uses like an aquarium. I've seen people
saying it killed fish. Happened on that when I was looking for something
reasonably food safe. The "I" version doesn't have the additive.
Evan needs a daddy
Dude, You are a dick! Just admit you don't know the answer and politely bow
out of the conversation. Talking about shit you may have heard one of your
mom's sugar daddies talking about in passing isn't earning you any points with
the folks who actually know what they are talking about. Just because you
aren't mentally capable doesn't mean others are similarly deficient. Some of
us actually made it through highschool and *gasp* into college where we
*double gasp* learned stuff - ya know - like En-gen-eer-ing...
The max operating temp for GE II is 400F.
Stay out of the way and let the big boys work!
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Idea Factory
I was wondering about muffler and tailpipe sealer - but that is probably not rubbery after cure _ G
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Idea Factory
My sister asked me to find out (internet search) how long her battery is supposed to last (hours/days) for her model cell phone. I told her the real information answer, for her use case, will be so specific to her, that she needs to just try a different (newer) phone and use it as she normally would, to find out how long a typical battery should last. And I offered her my phone. Which means a better answer is to find out under your own specific conditions.
I think if anyone has a good answer for the GE silicone temperature limit question, they wud have written it. Since they/we don't, they/we recommended known options. It may be time to do your own testing/experimenting and find out for all of us, if ithe GE silicone works at ___ temp, and for how long does it stick. This will help forward knowledge, if you choose to share it, for all humankind. G
PS Have you tried to find a product called "_/*_Black Fire Cement_*/_ " ? Its used for sealing wood stoves, etc. (high temp). Pls let us know what works.
Idea Factory
Is there a way to place the mastic into a calling tube and squirt it on/in ? Does the mastic have the right viscosity to be squeezed out of a calling tip ? If so, this mastic wud work for both use cases. Does mastic hold up to furnace temps ? 350 - 750 deg F -G
Idea Factory
So Mr Ransley, if you would be so kind as to please let me know the exact name of the product to which you are referring, as it looks like a typo in your comment. Did you mean to say "HVAC duct seal mastic ?" Does it have a number in the name or any other descriptor ? Please help + be more specific and please take a deep breath, + please do not resort to cavemanish name-calling, when you are frustrated. Oops, now I may have just done the same. Thank you, Greg PS I've noticed, people from Canada are really compassionate, polite, and kind-natured, like the better part of ourselves . And this was all meant with humility + respect to everyone.
Idea Factory
Have you thought about creating a trap door in your ductwork, with an angel grinder, for easier access, for inspecting, sealing and cleaning ? But then you have to make a door which is bigger than the opening and seal around that too . This is quite an interesting exchange of ideas. Thank you all. G
Idea Factory
Anyone ever used Black Fire Cement ? used to seal wood stoves,etc high temp ? G
Idea Factory
Pros out there, please correct me if I'm wrong, - I'm just a kid and only did an apprenticeship with an old man in HVAC. I'm not a pro.
There are mastics which dry rubbery. But please try the silicone,(perform the experiment) be the scientist, and let us all know what the temp is (drill a test hole/port) if it works. If it sticks, if it stays rubbery, how long it lasts. You can forward knowledge for all of us humans, even those who think they already know everything. I can tell all of us are burning with curiosity, insults aside. I know I am. I wonder if they treat their neighbors the way they behave online. Online writing Seems to bring out the "best" in all of us. Black Fire Cement ?
Idea Factory
Or did u just refer to electric furnaces - as in resistive type ? FYI- even they are more efficient that fossil fuel type, just fossils are more heavily subsidized - and therefore cheaper. A good portion/percent of Fossils heat goes up the chimney, but didn't in electric furnaces. And have you looked at the ridiculously high efficiency of ground source heat pumps, which should be used everywhere there is a cold environment, and in reverse for AC? Has anyone realized that a person taking the time to go onto this forum, is doing research ? It is reviewing current knowledge. G
Idea Factory
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Clare Snyder
good for intermittent 650F. Ultra copper is good to 700F
