Will Salt prevent toilet and traps from freezing

[Caulki...@work.com]

To prevent toilet and traps from freezing in an unheated mobile home
this winter I know that most people put either regular anti-freeze or RV
anti-freeze in the toilet bowl and sink traps. But this trailer wont be
connected to water or a sewer until at least next summer. It's just
intended to be used for a guest house and storage. It's sitting on
blocks, and close to being level, but that is all I plan to do to it
before winter except repair the broken windows. When warm weather
returns, I'll re-check the levelness and then connect the utilities.

In the meantime, there is still some water in the toilet and probably
the sink traps. I drained the water heater and pipes. I may just
remove the sink traps and that will solve them. But it's impossible to
get all the water out of a toilet without removing it.

Anyhow, when I connect this to the water next summer, I dont want
anti-freeze pouring out on the ground under the trailer, which could
poison pets and so on. I know the RV anti-freeze is not as poisonous as
the regular type, but still is not good for the environment and animals.
I'm wondering if simply pouring a cup or two of table salt into the
toilet bowl would work. Besides being cheaper, it would not harm
anything when it's flushed out on the ground. Will it work?

[Harry K]

Depends on how cold it gets. Salt water will freeze at lower temps than fresh but when it freezes depends on how much salt is in it.

Harry K

[DerbyDad03]

I would imagine that a shop vac would get enough water out of the toilets
so that it was no longer an issue. I've sucked toilets almost dry before
removing them. Well, the shop vac sucked them dry, not me.

You could adapt the hose with a smaller one to ensure it gets deep down
into trap. If the toilet is not connected to anything underneath, wouldn't
any tiny bit of water left have room to expand?

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 22:38:56 -0600, Caulki...@work.com wrote:



>
>Anyhow, when I connect this to the water next summer, I dont want
>anti-freeze pouring out on the ground under the trailer, which could
>poison pets and so on. I know the RV anti-freeze is not as poisonous as
>the regular type, but still is not good for the environment and animals.
>I'm wondering if simply pouring a cup or two of table salt into the
>toilet bowl would work. Besides being cheaper, it would not harm
>anything when it's flushed out on the ground. Will it work?

It will start to freeze at about 14F and freeze solid at about -5.

Is the risk worth saving a few pennies?

[nestork]

I agree with the idea of sucking the remaining water out of the bowl
siphon channel with a wet/dry vaccuum.

You can buy an adapter at Home Depot to connect the normal 2 1/2 inch
vaccuum hose used by Sears and Shop Vac wet/dry vaccuum cleaners to a
5/8 inch diameter garden hose. I use that kind of adapter to suck the
water out of copper piping before soldering.

If you twist the hose while pushing it into the toilet bowl, you should
be able to get all the way through the siphon channel.




--
nestork

[dadiOH]

<Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
news:nber79l8uheami03t...@4ax.com

Depends on how cold it gets. After all, the Arctic Sea freezes.

But I'm not sure why you care if they freeze. It's not like a pipe which is
full of water which has no where to go if it freezes. If the water in your
traps freezes wouldn't it just expand hamlessly into the empty portions?


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[micky]

On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 22:38:56 -0600, Caulki...@work.com wrote:

>To prevent toilet and traps from freezing in an unheated mobile home
>this winter I know that most people put either regular anti-freeze or RV
>anti-freeze in the toilet bowl and sink traps. But this trailer wont be
>connected to water or a sewer until at least next summer. It's just
>intended to be used for a guest house and storage. It's sitting on

Guest room, I think. Guest houses usually include water!

>blocks, and close to being level, but that is all I plan to do to it
>before winter except repair the broken windows. When warm weather
>returns, I'll re-check the levelness and then connect the utilities.
>
>In the meantime, there is still some water in the toilet and probably
>the sink traps. I drained the water heater and pipes. I may just
>remove the sink traps and that will solve them. But it's impossible to
>get all the water out of a toilet without removing it.

How high is the water level? To the top of the channel, the porcelain
tube that exits the bowl? I'm not a doctor of toiletology, but it
seems to me you could lower the water level below that with a toilet
plunger. If there are no other openings, like to a dishwasher, you
could do the same thing with sink traps.

I'm not a doctor of toiletology, but I don't think mere water can
damage pipes or toilets unless the water is high enough then when it
freezes, it pushes against something and breaks it. A half inch, an
inch of water in the bottom of a 2" passage will freeze and expand but
won't meet any resistance and will just get bigger. Like a bowl of
water will freeze and the water level will rise a little but it won't
break the bowl. If you're not sure of this, put an old bowl with
water in the freezer and see what happens.

>
>Anyhow, when I connect this to the water next summer, I dont want
>anti-freeze pouring out on the ground under the trailer, which could
>poison pets and so on. I know the RV anti-freeze is not as poisonous as
>the regular type, but still is not good for the environment and animals.
>I'm wondering if simply pouring a cup or two of table salt into the
>toilet bowl would work. Besides being cheaper, it would not harm
>anything when it's flushed out on the ground. Will it work?

That seems like a good idea. Maybe it was a bad idea when drain
pipes were made of metal, but everything in my house is plastic or
porcelain. I haven't read yet what the DT's say. If you shorten
yoru question to bare bones, it might be something a good plumber
would answer on the phone for no charge. 4PM (or 30/60 minutes before
closing might be a good time to call. They've finished their paper
work and sometimes have nothing to do.

[micky]

I'm confused. Do you mean withoout anything added, with salt added,
with antifreeze?

How come you don't say 31F?

[Caulki...@work.com]

I guess that the salty water will then freeze. I didn't think it would.

A toilet will crack faster than a pipe will burst. Porcelin has no
"give", whereas a metal pipe will expand a little before bursting, since
metal can stretch. I've seen many toilets break from freezing in
abandoned homes and had one of mine break years ago, when the furnece
quit working. I also had a spare toilet stored outside and even though
I thought it was covered, some rain water must have gotten inside. When
Spring came, it was split in several pieces.

As far as traps, it seems that the plastic ones tend to pop apart more
often than break, but the old brass ones would split wide open.

I guess I'll just remove the traps, and give a try to the using a shop
vac on the toilet, and probably add a little RV anti-freeze too. When I
drain the system in spring, I'll have to put a pail under the trailer's
drain pipe and dispose of the contents in a safe place.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 06:09:05 -0500, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

He asked about adding salt. The salt would dissolve in the water and
make a brine. The brine would start to freeze at about 14 degrees.

Seawater is less saline and would freeze at higher temperatures.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Friday, November 8, 2013 11:38:56 PM UTC-5, Caulki...@work.com wrote:
> To prevent toilet and traps from freezing in an unheated mobile home
>
> this winter I know that most people put either regular anti-freeze or RV
>
> anti-freeze in the toilet bowl and sink traps. But this trailer wont be
>
> connected to water or a sewer until at least next summer. It's just
>
> intended to be used for a guest house and storage. It's sitting on
>
> blocks, and close to being level, but that is all I plan to do to it
>
> before winter except repair the broken windows. When warm weather
>
> returns, I'll re-check the levelness and then connect the utilities.
>
>
>
> In the meantime, there is still some water in the toilet and probably
>
> the sink traps. I drained the water heater and pipes. I may just
>
> remove the sink traps and that will solve them. But it's impossible to
>
> get all the water out of a toilet without removing it.
>
>
>
> Anyhow, when I connect this to the water next summer, I dont want
>
> anti-freeze pouring out on the ground under the trailer, which could
>
> poison pets and so on. I know the RV anti-freeze is not as poisonous as
>
> the regular type, but still is not good for the environment and animals.

Nonsense. It's not poisonous at all. That's why it's labled as non-toxic
right on the container. It's made for winterizing among other things,
potable fresh water systems. I used it for many years on my boat.

>
> I'm wondering if simply pouring a cup or two of table salt into the
>
> toilet bowl would work. Besides being cheaper, it would not harm
>
> anything when it's flushed out on the ground. Will it work?

Except of course the plants, insects, etc that it kills from the
salt.

It will lower the freezing point, but if it gets cold enough it
will still freeze. You live in SC or Alaska?

[Stormin Mormon]

I'd flush the toilet, and then use a turkey baster or
sponge to get the rest of the water out of the tank,
and out of the trap. Salt water is corrosive to metals.

Sorry, friend. So much for "impossible".

Please be sure to use a compressor, and blow out the
water lines. Any low spot may freeze, and crack.
Might still be some water in there.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Stormin Mormon]

Might be able to use the shopvac air discharge,
and blow the water through the trap onto the ground
under the trailer. Pack around the hose with heavy
towel, and turn the shop vac on. Be the first man
in your street to have blown a toilet trap.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/9/2013 6:09 AM, Caulki...@work.com wrote:
>
> A toilet will crack faster than a pipe will burst. Porcelin has no
> "give", whereas a metal pipe will expand a little before bursting, since
> metal can stretch. I've seen many toilets break from freezing in
> abandoned homes and had one of mine break years ago, when the furnece
> quit working. I also had a spare toilet stored outside and even though
> I thought it was covered, some rain water must have gotten inside. When
> Spring came, it was split in several pieces.
>
> As far as traps, it seems that the plastic ones tend to pop apart more
> often than break, but the old brass ones would split wide open.
>
> I guess I'll just remove the traps, and give a try to the using a shop
> vac on the toilet, and probably add a little RV anti-freeze too. When I
> drain the system in spring, I'll have to put a pail under the trailer's
> drain pipe and dispose of the contents in a safe place.
>

Worth knowing, about toilets cracking. A very
real concern, new toilets cost money. My parents
had toilet replaced recently. About $400 including
the plumber's labor.

I've removed toilets, and find that a turkey baster
works nicely to get the last of the water.

[DerbyDad03]

micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 22:38:56 -0600, Caulki...@work.com wrote:
>
>> But this trailer wont be
>> connected to water or a sewer until at least next summer. It's just
>> intended to be used for a guest house and storage.
>

> Guest room, I think. Guest houses usually include water!
>

Guest house. Read the first line left quoted above. He said the water will
be hooked up next summer.

[bob haller]

living in a cold in winter area its common knowledge salt doesnt melt ice much below freezing. plus salt is highly corrosive.

better to use rv antifreeze,

or do the best you can and accept ssome frozen pipes...

even blown down lines can freeze and break.....

or send the home on a winter vacation to florida;0

[DerbyDad03]

bob haller <hal...@aol.com> wrote:
> living in a cold in winter area its common knowledge salt doesnt melt ice
> much below freezing. plus salt is highly corrosive.
>

Define "much below freezing".*

Sodium chloride lowers the freezing temp of water to about 15F in real
world conditions, even lower in the lab.

Magnesium chloride melts ice down to about 5F.

* I once worked for the IT director of a Fortune 500 company. If you were
in a project status meeting and she asked for a cost or a time frame, etc.
and you answered with "It won't cost much" or "It won't take very long"
there would be a very good chance that you wouldn't be invited back to her
meetings. You can't plan things around values like "not much" or "not very
long".

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/9/2013 10:22 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>
> * I once worked for the IT director of a Fortune 500 company. If you were
> in a project status meeting and she asked for a cost or a time frame, etc.
> and you answered with "It won't cost much" or "It won't take very long"
> there would be a very good chance that you wouldn't be invited back to her
> meetings. You can't plan things around values like "not much" or "not very
> long".
>

Yet we all know people that plan their entire lives like that.

[Culvert]

<Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
news:nber79l8uheami03t...@4ax.com...

You would need to test the salt content, by using a salometer. Optimum
content would be between 88 & 92%, but the higher the better. Even then,
it would only be good for 20 degrees F.

[ChairMan]

Man plans and God laughs<g>

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 8 Nov 2013 20:47:34 -0800 (PST), Harry K <tur...@q.com>
wrote:

Good point. The eutectic point for brine is -21C (-6F), so it's not
going to be a very good antifreeze for an unheated building in
Canuckistan. Propylene glycol is a much better idea.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Or compressed air from a portable tank. ;-)

[k...@attt.bizz]

Do you plan your life to the nanosecond?

[micky]

On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 07:25:05 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 06:09:05 -0500, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 09 Nov 2013 00:50:34 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 08 Nov 2013 22:38:56 -0600, Caulki...@work.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Anyhow, when I connect this to the water next summer, I dont want
>>>>anti-freeze pouring out on the ground under the trailer, which could
>>>>poison pets and so on. I know the RV anti-freeze is not as poisonous as
>>>>the regular type, but still is not good for the environment and animals.
>>>>I'm wondering if simply pouring a cup or two of table salt into the
>>>>toilet bowl would work. Besides being cheaper, it would not harm
>>>>anything when it's flushed out on the ground. Will it work?
>>>
>>>It will start to freeze at about 14F and freeze solid at about -5.
>>
>>I'm confused. Do you mean withoout anything added, with salt added,
>>with antifreeze?
>>
>>How come you don't say 31F?
>
>He asked about adding salt.

Good point.

>The salt would dissolve in the water and
>make a brine. The brine would start to freeze at about 14 degrees.

>Seawater is less saline and would freeze at higher temperatures.

Yeah, that's what confused me, I think. Thanks.

[k...@attt.bizz]

The eutectic mix (23.3% NaCl by weight) freezes at -6F. More is not
better. At saturation (not much more, at 26.2%) brine freezes at 32F.

Sol Freezing Pt
% C F
24 -17.00 -1.4
25 -10.40 13.3
26 -2.30 27.9
26.3 -0.00 32.00 <definition point for the Fahrenheit scale

http://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sgpubs/onlinepubs/h99002.pdf

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

The salt/brine onto the ground next Spring will harm plant life in the vicinity of the drop point. I would also worry about the brine/salt damaging any non-plastic pipes in the system.

[Harry K]

Nope. I gave my take-out (good toilet but needed a "handicap" one) to a buddy but he didn't pick it up. I left it out in the open, rained, broke. Not at the trap but in the siphon area in front of the bowl.

Harry K

[Culvert]

<k...@attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:5t3t795d5mucvvlj9...@4ax.com...

The optimum on the salometer is 88.3, to be exact.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Just buy couple jugs of RV anti-freeze and pour little bit of it on
every trap and toilet bowl. Hope you don't have many. Salt water can
freeze when cold way below 32deg. F.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Higher is NOT better, as you said above. At a concentration of
anything above 23.3% (by weight) the freezing temperature goes up
*very* quickly. At its maximum concentration (only 26.3%) the
freezing point is back to 32F.

[Ed Pawlowski]

No, but I do plan parts of it. Like getting the house paid off, lengthy
vacations, major home renovations. I don't take a list to the grocery
store though.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Did you plan, ten years in advance, what day you were going to write
the last mortgage check?

In real life, at least mine, there IS such a thing as "not much" and
"not very long", and even "I'll get to it when I get to it".

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 00:51:37 -0500, k...@attt.bizz wrote:



>>>> Yet we all know people that plan their entire lives like that.
>>>
>>> Do you plan your life to the nanosecond?
>>>
>>
>>No, but I do plan parts of it. Like getting the house paid off, lengthy
>>vacations, major home renovations. I don't take a list to the grocery
>>store though.
>
>Did you plan, ten years in advance, what day you were going to write
>the last mortgage check?

Actually, pretty close. I beat it by a couple of months. I followed
along with an Excel spreadsheet that showed me how much interest I'd
save with every extra dollar added to principle. Great incentive to
pre-pay

>
>In real life, at least mine, there IS such a thing as "not much" and
>"not very long", and even "I'll get to it when I get to it".

Yes, but it is not 100% of your life. You can't be obsessive about it
but most people have some idea where they are headed. You also have
to be able to change when needed.

[k...@attt.bizz]

It's good that you agree. You are human.