Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
jtpr
how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in
my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same
circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go
use the TS.
I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new
electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if
there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like
this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing
this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all
by itself it will blow the breaker.
-Jim
bob haller
both are powering on at the exact same time, the high current draw is
too much.
can you put the saw on one breaker and the dust collector on a
different circuit.
table saws live better on a dedicated 20 amp circuit.
Gus
You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are
doing and the ramifications thereof.
This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC.
Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running.
Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for
20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check.
Also, what else is using that line?
ransley
Use an amp meter to see if it pulls to much and something is wrong.
Nova
13 amps for the saw and about the same for 1.5 HP dust collector.
Typically a 110 volt auto-switch is rated for 15 amps or less. Also
check the current rating of the switch before you burn it out.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
nov...@verizon.net
jtpryan
I could do that, but then I couldn't use the vac switch.
-Jim
jtpryan
Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. I had the electrician wire
it for this when we renovated the house. Nothing else would be using
the line, I just power on one tool at a time.
How hard is it to change the breaker?
Jim
jtpryan
HeyBub
Almost trivial.
0. Remove breaker panel cover.
1. Turn off the target breaker.
2. Remove the wire by unscrewing the connector.
3. Lever out the old breaker (look at the new breaker for the technique)
4. Insert the new breaker - push it down really hard
5. Re-connect the previously disconnected wire. Tighten the screw really
well.
6. Turn on the new breaker.
7. Replace panel cover.
Alternatively, you might try a radio controlled on-off switch. The kind that
allows you to turn on a lamp from across the room. Attach the remote control
to the table saw. Plug your jig saw (or a lamp) into the switch.
Start the saw, wait a sec, push the button to turn on the jig saw/lamp,
which, in turn, will activate the dust collector.
What you're trying to do here is avoid two high-current motors from starting
at the same time.
stan
Too much starting current. Wire them up so that the two items (both
115 volt?) are on different 15 amp circuits. It may take a bit of
(safe) jiggery-pokery for the vacuum switch on one tool to start up
the electrcity to the other tool (the dust collector motor which is
wired to a different supply.
I have exactly this set up, with a 230 volt table saw and then an
arrangement to start up a 115 volt vacuum dust collector, which is not
yet installed! Right now I can plug in a 115 volt window fan that then
starts 'automatically' when the 230 volt bench saw is running.
Naturally the 230 volt and the 115 volt supplies are on different
circuits/breakers.
jtpryan
>
> - Show quoted text -
How did you do that? There is only one "input" on the switch.
-Jim
spaco
a good idea to change the breaker without increasing the wire size,
since you are really pushing that 12 ga. wire. You didn't say how long
the run from the main disconnect to the wall receptacle is. The longer
the run, the bigger the voltage drop to the tools, particularly in
Power-up mode.
I suggest that, to make sleeping at night easier, you get that
electrician back, replace the 12 ga wire with 10 ga, and THEN go to to
30 amp breaker.
If you DO consider going that way, anothe option is to consider
having them bring 220 to that point. Your saw, and maybe your DC may
be able to be rewired to run on 220. If so, you won't have to replace
the wires (you mentioned that they are yellow, (which is
wrong,anyway)so, as long as there's a gound wire, you have enough leads
to do the job.
Pete Stanaitis
---------------------------------------------------------------
dpb
...
> I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This
> is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on
> the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw,
The easiest fix is to return the one you bought for the remote starting
switch...
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5117&wcs=5855&pcs=fam
Alternatively, find one of the plug-in types similar to what you have
but that has a start delay built in as well as stopping to eliminate the
simultaneous starting surge or one that senses motor current from one
circuit but allows the tool to be on another. If the one you have plugs
into the saw outlet and the tool to be controlled plugs into it, it
would be more difficult to modify. There are just current sensors w/
start relays that serve the other function.
My only recommendation on breaker changeout would be that should have
run 30A service for shop circuit instead of 20A, but by Code that would
be 10ga, not 12ga.
A longer time-delay is probably possible to find, but I'd venture it
might be more expensive than the remote start option above.
Leon
"jtpr" <jtp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:47484fc7-7bc0-49f0...@s31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
Something sounds like it could be wrong, I use a 1.5hp collector that
recommends a 20 amp circuit, on 15 amp circuit along with a 15 amp router.
Both coming on at the same time is a problem.
In answer to your question, there are slow blow breakers to address
situations like this but I would still be cautious.
Nova
>
> Something sounds like it could be wrong, I use a 1.5hp collector that
> recommends a 20 amp circuit, on 15 amp circuit along with a 15 amp router.
> Both coming on at the same time is a problem.
>
> In answer to your question, there are slow blow breakers to address
> situations like this but I would still be cautious.
>
>
There are also quite a few circuit breakers from a number of different
manufacturers that have been recalled due to failure to trip when
overloaded. Federal Pacific is one example:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpestlouis.htm
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
bob haller
have the auto switch trip a contactor, basically a large high capacity
relaY.
END OF PROBLEM:)
jtpryan
OK, I would agree with that on the surface. But bear with me a minute
and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
there to handle the initial spike. The point of this entire
exercise is to have the DC running as little as possible and only as
needed. So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in
there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the
absolute max, probably less, and that's it. I do this as a hobby, not
production, so my typical style is to turn on the TS, make 1 or 2
cuts, and turn it off. Is there something I'm missing?
-Jim
dpb
...
> and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
> ... Is there something I'm missing?
Yes. 12ga wire isn't rated (by Code) for 30A.
It is a _VERY_ bad idea, akin to albeit not as bad as the penny in the
bottom of the fuse socket but the overcurrent condition required to trip
a 30A breaker on 20A-rated circuit is dangerous and should not be
considered.
Either find a sequential switch or use something like the remote switch
I posted a link to, rearrange to use two circuits and a control suitable
for that arrangement, pull 10 ga and upgrade to a 30A circuit or revert
to manually starting one and then the other from their respective manual
switches.
--
Leon
"jtpr" <jtp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:47484fc7-7bc0-49f0...@s31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a
second or two after the tool that is plugged into it gets past its initial
start up surge.
HeyBub
>
> OK, I would agree with that on the surface. But bear with me a minute
> and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in
> there to handle the initial spike. The point of this entire
> exercise is to have the DC running as little as possible and only as
> needed. So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in
> there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the
> absolute max, probably less, and that's it. I do this as a hobby, not
> production, so my typical style is to turn on the TS, make 1 or 2
> cuts, and turn it off. Is there something I'm missing?
>
Why not compromise and replace the breaker with the "slo-blo" variety? They
are built to accept temporary surges without going all crazy. One variety is
"High Magnetic Circuit Breaker" which will withstand temporary loads of up
to 20x its rated capacity. Here's one:
http://www.siscobreakers.com/browseproducts/HOM120HM.html
dpb
...
> I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a
It has a time delay.
--
Leon
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:gp4aeq$h19$1...@aioe.org...
Yeah, about a second or two. I was wondering how they implement it.
David G. Nagel
current is there it will trip the breaker.
The problem is the 29 amps that don't trip the 30 amp breaker. That is
where the excess heat comes from to start the fire.
Dave
David G. Nagel
starts so does the timer. When the first motor is up to speed the count
down reaches zero and fires the second motor start.
Dave
bud--
I agree.
dpb actually suggested a 30A breaker with appropriate #10 wire, but a
30A circuit is also a bad idea. Other than that I agree with dpb's
solutions.
A good solution is 2 circuits using a relay/contactor as suggested by
Bob Haller and dpb. The contactor coil connects to the Woodcraft
control. The contactor contacts are in the second circuit that powers
the DC. You could connect a time delay relay between the Woodcraft
control and the contactor so the DC would start a little later. A time
delay relay and contactor could also be connected to start the DC on the
same circuit after a short delay. It may be possible to add a time delay
relay to the Woodcraft control.
All circuit breakers that are used in a house have a time delay trip on
overload.
If motors are hardwired, a breaker may be larger than the wire size, but
it has to be designed properly.
--
bud--
Leon
"David G. Nagel" <nagel...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:PVvtl.15413$as4....@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>>
>> I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a
>> second or two after the tool that is plugged into it gets past its
>> initial start up surge.
> Most likely a count down circuit of some sort. When the first motor starts
> so does the timer. When the first motor is up to speed the count down
> reaches zero and fires the second motor start.
>
> Dave
It seem the OP's switch should have had this feature to start with.
Jay Giuliani
application.
Breakers designed for resistive loads will trip sooner than one designed to
handle motor inrush current. Each manufacturer typically has three or four
motor curves.
Find a local electrical supply and get a breaker rated for HVAC service.