Sharing well and pump--how much should we charge?
Johnn...@gmail.com
were supplied by the developer who old us the land on which we built
last year. Both houses use the well and pump, but only one house
supplies the electricity--and that's our house! We agreed that we
would pay for the electricity along with the rest of our electricity,
but our neighbor should pay us half the cost of the electricity
required to run the pump. Problem is, I don't know how to charge for
that. I don't even know how much electricity the pump uses. It's on
a circuit connected to our house's electrical service--there's no
separate meter. What would be a fair amount to charge?
In case it helps, both families have two adults and two children with
typical water usage--no hot tubs, swimming pools, etc.
Here's another thing I'm wondering about... Ours was the first house
built, and ours was the first plumbing connected to the pump, so I'm
wondering if we paid for some initial set-up that our neighbors didn't
have to pay for. For example, besides the electricity each month,
wouldn't there be a cost to initially run the circuit out to the
pump? What other initial costs might there be that should be shared
with the neighbor?
Finally, when our house was built, we installed a pressure tank. The
purpose of the pressure tank is to improve the overall pressure of the
plumbing in the house and to provide a sort of pressure reserve so
that the pump doesn't have to turn on so frequently. I'm not sure the
cost of this tank and it's related controls, but I know it was over
$1,000. I also know that our neighbor did *NOT* install one of
these. My question is this... Is our neighbor benefiting from our
pressure tank? Besides lessening wear and tire on the pump, is it
also improving the pressure for our neighbor's house, too? (The tank
is located in our house's mechanical room.) Is this something that
our neighbor should be compensating us for?
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
- Johnnie
Smitty Two
<7f54d944-ab0a-4cb4...@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Johnn...@gmail.com wrote:
It's hard to put a dollar value on that stuff. Your neighbor should let
you sleep with his wife once a month, in lieu of any cash compensation.
RBM
<Johnn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f54d944-ab0a-4cb4...@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
That's a crummy situation. Essentially you've paid for the well, plumbing
and wiring as well as support equipment, and the neighbor gets a tap off of
it. It's hard to believe the building codes would even allow that. His use
is causing wear and tear on your equipment. The electric is only a small
part of the cost, eventually the pump and other expensive parts will go.
Will he agree to share those costs? What if he moves, and the pump fails
right after a new owner moves in? I think you should get paid as though you
were selling water to the neighbor, assuming you are the legal owner of this
equipment. I would also expect your and his deeds to spell out this
situation and clarify how to handle it
tom
> I share a well with my neighbor. For both of us, the well and pump
> were supplied by the developer who old us the land on which we built
> last year. Both houses use the well and pump, but only one house
> supplies the electricity--and that's our house! We agreed that we
> would pay for the electricity along with the rest of our electricity,
> but our neighbor should pay us half the cost of the electricity
> required to run the pump.
that last sentence contains the answer.
how is this agreement spelled out, in legal terms? on your closing statement, on deed,
gentlemen's handshake, what?
I would suggest you sit down with neighbor and spell out a simple paper where he
agrees to pay you a monthly stipend which includes a future fee for not only the
electric use (that can not be more than $15 per month) plus some amount for
depreciating the hardware, plumbing, tanks, lines, supplies for parts and repairs for
existing equipment.
there is no need to create tension due to this situation, so my quick solution would
be to create a paper which you both sign and have 2 witnesses for signatures, ie. we
have agreed that our neighbor pays $20 per month which includes all electric and parts
existing or any repairs now and in the next 24 months - this agreement will stay in
force until Feb 2010 at which time it will be renegotiated based on then prevailing
utility rates and consideration to equipment age and any repairs that may need to be
performed in the next 12 months as of Feb 2010
should your neighbor not agree to these terms, make every attempt to come to a
mutually agreeable solution without appearing to be taking advantage of the status now
tra...@optonline.net
> JohnnieMarr wrote:
> > I share a well with my neighbor. For both of us, the well and pump
> > were supplied by the developer who old us the land on which we built
> > last year. Both houses use the well and pump, but only one house
> > supplies the electricity--and that's our house! We agreed that we
> > would pay for the electricity along with the rest of our electricity,
> > but our neighbor should pay us half the cost of the electricity
> > required to run the pump.
>
> that last sentence contains the answer.
>
> how is this agreement spelled out, in legal terms? on your closing statement, on deed,
> gentlemen's handshake, what?
>
> I would suggest you sit down with neighbor and spell out a simple paper where he
> agrees to pay you a monthly stipend which includes a future fee for not only the
> electric use (that can not be more than $15 per month) plus some amount for
> depreciating the hardware, plumbing, tanks, lines, supplies for parts and repairs for
> existing equipment.
>
> there is no need to create tension due to this situation, so my quick solution would
> be to create a paper which you both sign and have 2 witnesses for signatures,
Unfortunately, the stage is already set for tension to be created.
For example, he says they agreed to split the cost of the electricity,
but apparently no mention was ever made of splitting anything else.
So, now trying to get the neighbor to pay more could very easily
create tension, even if he goes about it very nicely and is 100%
right.
I agree with the advice to check the closing documents. This
arrangement should have been spelled out in the deeds or a seperate
agreement at closing. Who's land is the well and pump eqpt actually
on? Did you use an attorney at closing? Was he aware of this
situation and what did he say?
If there are no terms specified anywhere, then I'd figure out what the
estimated life of the well and eqpt is. I'd figure in a yearly
depreciation and have the neighbor pay you half. As for the
electric, you can estimate that too, by knowing the operating draw of
the pump and how long it runs on average. There are devices like the
kill a watt gizmo that will tell you how much electric a device uses
by the day, week, etc. Of course, you still don't know for sure,
because one house could use 3X the water of the other. For example,
suppose the neighbor installs a lawn irrigation system?
Then, you need to keep track of the payments over time that the
neighbor is making towards his half of the depreciation. If it turns
out replacement is needed, for example if the pump were to fail, then
at that time you would credit the amount paid for depreciation of that
particular item against the neighbors share of the replacement cost.
The agreement should spell out that any excess is to be split between
the parties. It should also spell out that for any routine repair, as
opposed to replacement, the cost will be split.
In general, as you are beginning to find out, this is usually a bad
situation that leads to trouble. For the cost of the well and eqpt,
it's just not worth it. It's better to have paid any extra $5K up
front and not have to deal with this, because sooner or later, it
could very easily cost you more than that in legal fees and
headaches. An obvious point where that headache will come into play
is when you go to sell your home? It's not too likely that the next
buyer will overlook this as you did.
hal...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
you could put a water meter on his feed. set a rate and read 3 times a
year. enough to cover electric and killers like pump replacements
i would be concerned at home resale time. YOU will have trouble
selling your home with this entalgment with your neighbor
did other homes do the same thing?
Johnn...@gmail.com
> It's hard to put a dollar value on that stuff. Your neighbor should let
> you sleep with his wife once a month, in lieu of any cash compensation.
Ugh. Not interested. At all.
Andy
Here's and idea. Put in a second pump for yourself. Tell your
neighbor that he can have the "old" system as his own, but he
will have to put in his own electric line. That way two pumps
will use the same suction line (not a problem with a check valve)
and the expense to do these items will be roughly the same.
If the neighbor doesn't go for it, ask him what he would suggest
as a fair division of the costs of providing water to you both.....
By the way, whose land does the suction line exist on ?
If you two reach and agreement, be sure that an easement
is provided to the suction line, or anything that is necessary
for the operation of the system.
Sometimes it's better to bend a little than to insist on what
one feels is one's "just" rights. A good neighbor is far more
of an asset than an old pump....
Andy in Eureka, Texas
Bill
paying him for his cost of gasoline. We all know that there are many costs
associated with owning a car... Purchase, interest on loan, license,
insurance, gasoline, and repair costs.
Same with a well. Every so often need a new pump. Need costly repairs.
Sometimes need to dig a deeper well because well goes dry. Can have trouble
with bacteria or contamination in water and need to treat it. Can have a
daily limit as to how much water can be pumped from certain wells, etc.
What if your neighbor decides to use too much water and this makes the well
go dry for the day and you are left without water?
What if the well goes dry and you need to dig a deeper well? Who pays what?
What if you and your neighbor are without water because the well went dry,
it will cost $10,000.00 to get it fixed, and you decide you want to wait 30
days before having this done (time to get money or loan)? Can your neighbor
sue you because you are not providing them with water?
What if your well becomes contaminated with bacteria and this makes your
neighbors sick? Are you liable for their medical costs?
What if they don't pay you their share and you cut off their water? Can they
sue you?
Etc.
The only way I would do this is to place the well on a separate electric
meter and install a water meter on the neighbor's line. Also a water meter
on your line. (Can tell who is using how much.)
Then find out how much total water can be used from this well daily. Find
out typical maintenance costs over a 10 year period. Cost to replace pump.
Cost for deeper well, etc.
Then get it in writing (with a lawyer doing the writing) that you or future
owners of your house are under no obligation to provide water to your
neighbor, that you are just doing this on a temporary basis until they get
their own well, and that you may disconnect them at any time for any reason.
Also that you are not responsible for any water contamination by bacteria or
otherwise.
That they are limited to using only a certain amount of water a day and if
they exceed this, you can cut off their water without notice.
And if they are late with their payments, there will be a late charge and
interest charges.
That you can change the terms of the agreement at anytime. That the
agreement is not transferrable to another person (future owners of their
house).
Then calculate the cost of electricity they use each month based on their
water usage and charge for that. Also charge for their share of yearly
operating costs (well drilling, pump replacement, repairs, cost of meters,
etc.), and charge for your time to keep track of all this.
Basically the contract would say you are not responsible for anything, can
cut them off anytime you wish, and they must pay for their fair share of
everything (not just electricity).
Perhaps also state that you are charging them a monthly "connection fee"
which will be paid even if they use no water at all and this fee is not
based on usage. (You would not have to calculate usage every month and they
could not come back at you claiming you miscalculated their usage, etc.
wanting a credit.) You could choose to just charge them a monthly fee and
not bother with doing any calculating if you so choose.
Smitty Two
"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Good lord. Two people can't share a well without all that b.s.? If I had
a neighbor that unreasonable, I'd either shoot him or move. There's got
to be a solution that doesn't cost $10,000 to make sure that the guy
doesn't cheat you out of 75 cents worth of water or power.
Harry K
From someone who has been there and done that. I bought a house on a
community well. The well was on the neighbors land - originally ran 4
houses but only mine and the neighbors when I bought.
First and most important (others also said it) - get an agreement in
writing and best preapared by a lawyer.
Points to be covered:
Who is responsible for the maintenance? If it is 'call a plumber'
then just who? The plumber won't come to a call he can't bill for.
If it will be one of you, that person needs to be compensated for the
time. In my case, I wound up as that person - unpaid - because I was
the only one who knew how.
How are costs of maintenance to be shared? Monthly charge (best)? As
needed? - works for minor stuff but a major cost (busted pump) can be
beyond what just writing a check will cover at a moments notice.
How much water is to be used? Very important. In my case I was
frugal with the water but the neighbor was running four sprinklers
24/7 on her pasture.
I finally got fed up with the system and drilled my own well to get
off the 'somethign wrong witht he pump calls' and trying to get a
reasonable split on costs. Still do have the connection to the
community well though (that is deeded).
Bottom line to repeat: Get a legal agreement drawn up.
Re: neighbor getting benefit of your pressure tank. Yes he is
unless there is a one-way valve cutting him off from the tank. The
pressure switch would have to located on his side of the valve though.
Harry K
tra...@optonline.net
> Andy suggest:
>
> Here's and idea. Put in a second pump for yourself. Tell your
> neighbor that he can have the "old" system as his own, but he
> will have to put in his own electric line. That way two pumps
> will use the same suction line (not a problem with a check valve)
> and the expense to do these items will be roughly the same.
Yeah, that's a great idea, make a screwed up situation even more
screwed up. Where exactly is this second electric line gonna go? To
the submersible pump? If he's gonna put in a second anything, then
it should be a second well and pump that's for the neighbot on the
neighbor's property. That fixes it once and for all.
>
> If the neighbor doesn't go for it, ask him what he would suggest
> as a fair division of the costs of providing water to you both.....
Seems the neighbor is getting water right now. So, why would he have
much interest in a new bastardized system?
>
> By the way, whose land does the suction line exist on ?
Even better question, who's land is the well on?
> If you two reach and agreement, be sure that an easement
> is provided to the suction line, or anything that is necessary
> for the operation of the system.
>
> Sometimes it's better to bend a little than to insist on what
> one feels is one's "just" rights. A good neighbor is far more
> of an asset than an old pump....
>
> Andy in Eureka, Texas
Yeah, he should just bend over and take it like a man!
jJim McLaughlin
> I share a well with my neighbor. For both of us, the well and pump
> were supplied by the developer who old us the land on which we built
> last year. Both houses use the well and pump, but only one house
> supplies the electricity--and that's our house! We agreed that we
> would pay for the electricity along with the rest of our electricity,
> but our neighbor should pay us half the cost of the electricity
> required to run the pump. Problem is, I don't know how to charge for
> that. I don't even know how much electricity the pump uses. It's on
> a circuit connected to our house's electrical service--there's no
> separate meter. What would be a fair amount to charge?
Hmmm. Personally, I would'nt be in a siuation where this arrangment
aplied.
But you are, so you have to deal with it.
First thing I'd o would be o put in water meters for each ouse, so that
the gallonage used in each house could be tracked.
Second thing would be o et that pup on a separate meter, not connected
to either house's
domestic electric load.
Yep, could be expensive capital costs. And those sould be split 50 - 50.
Ongoing useage, split the elctric costs each month on the percentage of
water
by gallonage being used at each house. House A uses 10,000 gallons in
month of
January, House B uses 20,000 that month, House A pays 1/3 of pump
electric,
House B pays 2/3 of pump electric for that month. look at the gallonage
each month and readjust each month.
Pumps wear out. How do you propose to take care of pump replacement
15 years down the road? What witten down in advance arrangement do you
have for pipe leak repair in water lines from pump to each house?
You and nighbor have similar sized families now and maybe similar water
use patterns.
What happens when neighbor sells to the proverbial single little old
lady ?
Or the family with a dozen kids?
>
> In case it helps, both families have two adults and two children with
> typical water usage--no hot tubs, swimming pools, etc.
You and nighbor have similar sized families now and maybe similar water
use patterns.
What happens when neighbor sells to the proverbial single little old
lady ?
Or the family with a dozen kids?
>
> Here's another thing I'm wondering about... Ours was the first house
> built, and ours was the first plumbing connected to the pump, so I'm
> wondering if we paid for some initial set-up that our neighbors didn't
> have to pay for. For example, besides the electricity each month,
> wouldn't there be a cost to initially run the circuit out to the
> pump? What other initial costs might there be that should be shared
> with the neighbor?
>
Fahgedabbout that. It was chicken feed.
By the way, what poperty is he well on (or in)? Do you and neighbor i
your deeds both have an easement to get to the water lies for service?
Do you each, in your deeds, have water rights acces to 1/2 the flow of
the well?
> Finally, when our house was built, we installed a pressure tank. The
> purpose of the pressure tank is to improve the overall pressure of the
> plumbing in the house and to provide a sort of pressure reserve so
> that the pump doesn't have to turn on so frequently. I'm not sure the
> cost of this tank and it's related controls, but I know it was over
> $1,000. I also know that our neighbor did *NOT* install one of
> these. My question is this... Is our neighbor benefiting from our
> pressure tank?
The situation you have already described is so screwy, already, that one
can only guess as to how the plumbing was done. Its possible that the
well feeds the pressure tank and the tank feeds both houses. Without
looking
at it an tracing out the plumbing, no one in this news group could tell.
We aren't there, we can't see it.
Besides lessening wear and tire on the pump, is it
> also improving the pressure for our neighbor's house, too? (The tank
> is located in our house's mechanical room.) Is this something that
> our neighbor should be compensating us for?
>
> Any advice is greatly appreciated.
>
>
What attorney represented you in the closing?
What attorney represented the other home buyer?
I can't believe a locality would allow this kind of
arrangement, it would ot be allowed for new construction in this state
(Oregon).
I almost can't believe there is a lender out there who would lend on
either house,
but especially on house two. Then again, lenders are far too often stupid,
as the sub prime farce shows.
Good luck, you are going to need it.
- Johnnie
tra...@optonline.net
Yeah, that should be real easy. The neighbor just bought a new house
and is getting water already under the current system, which was just
an agreement to pay for the electric. I'm sure he'll just say sweet
deal, including even the late fees.
The time for the lawyer and the agreement in writing was BEFORE he
bought this place.
>
> Then calculate the cost of electricity they use each month based on their
> water usage and charge for that. Also charge for their share of yearly
> operating costs (well drilling, pump replacement, repairs, cost of meters,
> etc.), and charge for your time to keep track of all this.
Oh, it gets even better. The neighbor is getting water right now and
only has agreed to pay for electric. Not only to do you want to
renegotiate the whole deal, you want to charge late fees and now
bookeeping fees. That's a real good negotiating strategy.
>
> Basically the contract would say you are not responsible for anything, can
> cut them off anytime you wish, and they must pay for their fair share of
> everything (not just electricity).
And it gets even better. Why don't you call up your mortgage company
and tell them you want 4% instead of 7%, want them to pay you fees for
bookeeping, etc? Should have about the same chance of success.
>
> Perhaps also state that you are charging them a monthly "connection fee"
> which will be paid even if they use no water at all and this fee is not
> based on usage. (You would not have to calculate usage every month and they
> could not come back at you claiming you miscalculated their usage, etc.
> wanting a credit.) You could choose to just charge them a monthly fee and
> not bother with doing any calculating if you so choose.
Here's an idea, why not charge them a fee for breathing air too? Can
anyone be this stupid? This is how a bad situation that could
POSSIBLU be resolved by being reaonable, winds up instead in court.
Bill
> Good lord. Two people can't share a well without all that b.s.? If I had >
> a neighbor that unreasonable, I'd either shoot him or move.
>
It would be nice if neighbors were always nice and a handshake would work
for everything. But if you watch Judge Judy on TV, you will quickly see that
neighbors (who were once friendly) can get to be quite nasty. This is the
reason contracts were invented....
Roger Shoaf
between both properties, and then enter into an agreement that each one of
you will pay a fund to maintain the system. The fund would be in joint
ownership and run with each one of your lots,
Once a pre-determined maintenance reserve fund is established, the funds
would sit and draw interest. In the event of a failure, the fund would have
sufficient reserve to pay for parts and labor to replace.
As far as electric costs, a Hobbs meter can be installed to see how many
hours a month the pump runs. The electric cost can be derived by
multiplying the hours times the rate of consumption, and then by the
electric rate. The neighbor would be responsible for half.
This would be a good deal for both of you.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
<Johnn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f54d944-ab0a-4cb4...@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
dpb
...
>> Then get it in writing (with a lawyer doing the writing) ...
> Good lord. Two people can't share a well without all that b.s.? If I had
> a neighbor that unreasonable, I'd either shoot him or move. There's got
> to be a solution that doesn't cost $10,000 to make sure that the guy
> doesn't cheat you out of 75 cents worth of water or power.
For the present, probably.
But...example that happened just up the road a few years ago.
Old farmstead sold when husband died. The person who bought the place
did so for his mother -- at one point a number of years later they
subdivided a section off w/ the metal shed and a couple of acres since
she had no need for anything other than the house/yard, etc.
Turns out the well was on that sublet piece and the SOB who bought it
laid out the dividing line specifically w/ that piece of information in
mind. The woman and her son didn't think of it and within a month of
the guy taking possession they were out of water one morning when he cut
the line and hooked himself up to "their" well.
W/O a legal arrangement, whoever doesn't have the well in this situation
is at a very serious potential disadvantage down the road.
I agree that this needs to be resolved in an amicable fashion, but it
definitely needs a firm contractual basis and that needs to be
incorporated into the deed(s).
--
hal...@aol.com
contaminate the water, make it turn brite green or something....
appear unconcerned:) after all you know its food coloring:)
but they dont panic and drill their own well............
end of problem
PaPaPeng
>Unfortunately, the stage is already set for tension to be created.
>For example, he says they agreed to split the cost of the electricity,
>but apparently no mention was ever made of splitting anything else.
>So, now trying to get the neighbor to pay more could very easily
>create tension, even if he goes about it very nicely and is 100%
>right.
Haven't read the other responses yet.
My solution would be to ask the neighbor for half the capital cost of
the pump installation and equipment. The agreement will include a
clause that all maintenance and replacement costs for the pump and
accessories will be split down the middle regardless of who was using
the pump when it broke down or whose fault it was.
Then ask him to run his own power line to the pump so that when he
needs run the pump he runs it off his own power supply. Perhaps a
electrician should figure this one out. The neighbor already has a
switch and power cable to turn on the pump. There should be a way to
make this line live to run the pump from his own power source. With
the set up so that the power source from each house wouldn't
interconnect and cause short circuit problems.
A better solution will be a Y or T connector to the well pipe. Each
branch is connected to its own pump. When one pump runs it shuts off
the other branch of the Y. This way there is no dispute as to whose
pump it is when repair costs arise, and no dispute as to who pays for
the power used to run his own pump. You don't have to talk to each
other again.
Dave Martindale
>Finally, when our house was built, we installed a pressure tank. The
>purpose of the pressure tank is to improve the overall pressure of the
>plumbing in the house and to provide a sort of pressure reserve so
>that the pump doesn't have to turn on so frequently. I'm not sure the
>cost of this tank and it's related controls, but I know it was over
>$1,000. I also know that our neighbor did *NOT* install one of
>these. My question is this... Is our neighbor benefiting from our
>pressure tank? Besides lessening wear and tire on the pump, is it
>also improving the pressure for our neighbor's house, too? (The tank
>is located in our house's mechanical room.) Is this something that
>our neighbor should be compensating us for?
If the tank is just connected to the incoming line, then the neighbor is
probably benefitting too. When he opens a valve in his house, the water
will come from your tank, flowing back from your house to the junction
where his water line comes off, until the pressure drops enough for the
pump to turn on. But this isn't ideal for him (there will be a pressure
drop through all that pipe) and certainly isn't ideal for you (you're
providing water from your tank to his house).
A partial fix for this is to put a check valve between the incoming pipe
and your house including the pressure tank. That way, water that has
made it into your tank stays in the tank, for your benefit, and your
pressure doesn't drop suddenly when the other guy opens a tap.
But this may make the pump run more often than is ideal. The solution
to that is for your neighbor to add his own pressure tank, at his
expense. If he's not willing to do this now, when it's clearly mostly
for his own benefit, how willing will he be to pay half the cost of a
replacement pump when it fails?
Dave
Oren
Talk to the developer. After all, it's only been a year. Find out some
more facts from him. You did have inspectors out when the house was
built this year, right? Call their office for documents.
Some places in the desert of Las Vegas, NV have up to 12 homes on
community wells. Apparently, the wells and all on are on an
easement...but I don't know for certain. Again, as others say! Check
your documents.
Is the well on his property and you agreed to pay the electric bill,
because of a slight oversight?
--
Oren
Chris Lewis
If things got nasty, there's no telling of how it would turn out.
Does your ownership agreement say _anything_ about this? Is it
listed as an easement?
I think it's _way_ too late to consider recouping the cost of the
initial installation. Chalk that up to experience, and don't do
it again.
You could purchase a Killawatt meter and monitor the power consumption
for a month or more, split the power consumption in half, and bill him
for that at the current going rate. This only works if the pump is
120V (and preferably plug-connected). Killawatts are only about $40.
At 240V, I dunno of any solutions that cheap.
As for maintenance - the common plumbing elements are: well, pump,
pressure tank, and anything else his water goes through before it
goes off to his house. Like a water softener. He should pay half
the repair bills of any equipment in your place it goes through before
it gets to his. If he objects to that, you will have to consider
whether it's in your best interest to eat the costs, or go the legal
route.
Without some pre-agreement on maintenance, paper or otherwise, you
may well be screwed. A court may consider what little agreement
that there was to be a binding "contract", in which case you're stuck
with it. Legal advice is advised, but don't threaten/start proceedings
until you're ready to make a long term enemy.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
Chris Lewis
> contaminate the water, make it turn brite green or something....
> appear unconcerned:) after all you know its food coloring:)
> but they dont panic and drill their own well............
> end of problem
Fun to contemplate, a dumb idea in reality, and may be the start
of a whole new crop of problems.
Oren
So that rules out the 'ole man?!
--
Oren
Johnn...@gmail.com
I'm surprised the mere idea of well sharing is so foreign to
everyone. It's very common in Wisconsin. It makes a lot of sense.
There are rarely any problems, and I personally have never heard of
any first-hand. Sharing a well causes no problems with deeds,
mortgages, buying, selling, etc. Our deed, and our neighbor's deed,
both have the same language regarding the well and pump, and the deeds
were reviewed by attorneys, title companies, lenders, etc. This is
all legit.
My only problem is *HOW* to split the electricity. We both agree that
we'll split it, and our deeds stipulate that we'll split it, but how
do we split it? I'm waiting to hear back from my neighbor to see if
he agrees on a reasonable amount like $15/mo. I have no reason to
believe he'll argue about it. If he does, I'll just have to install a
meter on that circuit, watch it for a few months to come up with an
average, and then charge based on that. If the cost of a meter is
reasonable, I may do that regardless, as I'm a lover of information,
and I'd just like to know how much juice the pump uses.
I'm satisfied that the cost to run the circuit in the first place is
negligible, and I won't bother my neighbor with that. Besides, we'd
have to run that circuit even if we didn't share a well, and our
neighbor had to run a similar circuit to control the pump, so it's not
worth analyzing.
As for the pressure tank... I'm going to have a non-biased third
party plumber look at the installation and make sure it's fare, and
explore the "check valve" to make sure my neighbor doesn't benefit
from it, or, if necessary, figure out what initial costs should be
shared.
Thanks for all the information everyone!
- Johnnie
tra...@optonline.net
> According to hall...@aol.com <hall...@aol.com>:
It sure is a dumb idea. Not only would someone dumb enough to
contaminate the water be in for a slam dunk civil case, they could be
facing criminal charges as well. Especially today, deliberately
contaminating someones shared water is likely going to lead to serious
trouble.
tra...@optonline.net
> Why not assume that the capital costs heretofore have been paid equitably
> between both properties,
Well, for one thing, there is nothing to suggest who paid for what.
and then enter into an agreement that each one of
> you will pay a fund to maintain the system. The fund would be in joint
> ownership and run with each one of your lots,
>
> Once a pre-determined maintenance reserve fund is established, the funds
> would sit and draw interest. In the event of a failure, the fund would have
> sufficient reserve to pay for parts and labor to replace.
>
> As far as electric costs, a Hobbs meter can be installed to see how many
> hours a month the pump runs. The electric cost can be derived by
> multiplying the hours times the rate of consumption, and then by the
> electric rate. The neighbor would be responsible for half.
>
> This would be a good deal for both of you.
That's very debateable. If you had the opportunity to share your
well with a neighbor under these conditions, would you?
>
> --
> Roger Shoaf
> If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
>
> <JohnnieM...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > - Johnnie- Hide quoted text -
tra...@optonline.net
Good job at inventing new problems that haven't been stated and have
nothing to do with the question.
tra...@optonline.net
> Wow! Lots of responses! Thanks for all the advice.
>
> I'm surprised the mere idea of well sharing is so foreign to
> everyone. It's very common in Wisconsin. It makes a lot of sense.
> There are rarely any problems, and I personally have never heard of
> any first-hand. Sharing a well causes no problems with deeds,
> mortgages, buying, selling, etc. Our deed, and our neighbor's deed,
> both have the same language regarding the well and pump, and the deeds
> were reviewed by attorneys, title companies, lenders, etc. This is
> all legit.
If it's all so common and a swell idea that doesn't lead to any
problems, why are you here asking questions about how to resolve it?
>
> My only problem is *HOW* to split the electricity. We both agree that
> we'll split it, and our deeds stipulate that we'll split it, but how
> do we split it? I'm waiting to hear back from my neighbor to see if
> he agrees on a reasonable amount like $15/mo. I have no reason to
> believe he'll argue about it. If he does, I'll just have to install a
> meter on that circuit, watch it for a few months to come up with an
> average, and then charge based on that. If the cost of a meter is
> reasonable, I may do that regardless, as I'm a lover of information,
> and I'd just like to know how much juice the pump uses.
And what happens when he says, screw you, you're charging me too much,
I'm only paying half? Or when lightning hits the pump and you pay
for it's replacement? Or he sells the place and the new neighbor
decides to put in an irrigation system for 2 acres of lawn?
>
> I'm satisfied that the cost to run the circuit in the first place is
> negligible, and I won't bother my neighbor with that.
That's cool. How about the cost of the well and pump? Who paid for
that? Here we call guys like you a sucker.
cj
Johnn...@gmail.com wrote:
we share a well with the well's owner (whos never here) and another
neighbor. the well's owner charges us $35 a year and i know that i use
alot more water than he does
cj in michigan
dpb
...
> I'm surprised the mere idea of well sharing is so foreign to
> everyone. It's very common in Wisconsin. It makes a lot of sense.
> There are rarely any problems, and I personally have never heard of
> any first-hand. Sharing a well causes no problems with deeds,
> mortgages, buying, selling, etc. Our deed, and our neighbor's deed,
> both have the same language regarding the well and pump, and the deeds
> were reviewed by attorneys, title companies, lenders, etc. This is
> all legit.
Well, you left out the part of it being included in the deeds,
easements, etc. The discussion was over the case in which, as it
sounded like from the original post, one property owner was supplying
water to an adjacent lacking anything other than a very nebulous verbal
arrangement for power.
> My only problem is *HOW* to split the electricity. We both agree that
> we'll split it, and our deeds stipulate that we'll split it, but how
> do we split it? I'm waiting to hear back from my neighbor to see if
> he agrees on a reasonable amount like $15/mo. I have no reason to
> believe he'll argue about it. If he does, I'll just have to install a
> meter on that circuit, watch it for a few months to come up with an
> average, and then charge based on that. If the cost of a meter is
> reasonable, I may do that regardless, as I'm a lover of information,
> and I'd just like to know how much juice the pump uses.
If the agreement were were complete, it would adjudicate the split as well.
Lacking a formal agreement, estimating is fine if you and the neighbor
are both agreeable. Whether that's equitable depends on relative water
use, though, not simply the power charge. While the incremental
operational cost isn't probably enough to worry about excessively, what
about the distribution of repair costs, etc? Are they to be shared
50:50 or on some estimated basis or what? If one uses far more over
time than the other, is it fair that that user pay less than the
fractional amount of water used?
The point really isn't that you and the current neighbor couldn't work
this all out between the two of you (although I'm curious as another
respondent that if there weren't some friction that you would feel
prompted to post the question to usenet) without anything further, but
the scenario of future neighbors who may not be so easygoing. If
there's a firm legal basis for all the ancillary costs besides simply
the incremental power cost, then there's a basis for settlement that
minimizes potential bickering. Again, the basis for this shouldn't be
to try to favor one party over the other but to make it an equitable
(and well-defined) arrangement.
...
> As for the pressure tank... I'm going to have a non-biased third
> party plumber look at the installation and make sure it's fare, and
> explore the "check valve" to make sure my neighbor doesn't benefit
> from it, or, if necessary, figure out what initial costs should be
> shared.
As a shared well, what's not "fair" about him gaining some "benefit"
from the pressure tank -- it's part of the system and the _system_ is
shared. One would presume the well feeds the pressure tank and the tank
then feeds both properties.
Again, the agreement should include the system and costs for maintaining
it, not simply the operational costs.
What happens if the well fails and you're out of town for an extended
period? The neighbor have access to everything they need to get the
problem resolved before you return?
So many questions, so few answers...
--
Pat
> we'll split it, and our deeds stipulate that we'll split it, but how
> do we split it?
You could measure the time the pump runs by adding a clock to the circuit.
The amount of electricity used by the pump can be measured with a amp meter
or watt meter.
Harry K
To say nothing of starting an unneccessary neighbor fued that will go
on for years. There is no reason the neighbor will be pissed off at a
reasonable request to get a legal contract made...well, possibly if he
is an asshole to begin with.
Harry K
Harry K
>
> - Show quoted text -
And just what is unreasonable about asking that a contract be drawn up
with details negotiated?
Things can always be changed by mutual consent.
Harry K
Harry K
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not without a lot more details in the agreement. In case you missed
it somehow, _that_ is what the thread is about.
Harry K
Harry K
There should be much more than just shareing the cost of the
electric. It sounds like he is reasonable so a sit down to hash out
some details is in order. In any case, do not present him with a
'decision' without discussing it with him first.
Picture zero dark 30 on a stormy night when you discover you are out
of water. How are the costs of the plumber going to be shared? That
needs to be in a legal contract. Any reasonble neighbor will
negotiate it.
As for the initial cost that went into drilling/equipment/piping etc.
of the well: That is water under the bridge. You agreed to whatever
the assignment of them were when you bought the lot from the developer
even if yuo didn't consider it. Those costs don't even involve the
neighbor. In effect you want to go back and renegotiate the selling
price. Ain't a gonna happen.
Harry K
.
bigji...@gmail.com
to sell
On Feb 26, 5:27 pm, JohnnieM...@gmail.com wrote:
Herb and Eneva
same well the legal owner has started a water co. This creates all sorts
of problems.
Harry K
Depends. A lot of developments have shared wells and there is no one
"legal owner". It is owned by the community and is part of the
covenants as to what the fees are, who is responsible, etc.
Nothing wrong with shared wells as long as there is an enforceable
contract involved.
Having BTDT, I would never do it again on the 'handshake' method.
Harry K
hal...@aol.com
> It sure is a dumb idea. � Not only would someone dumb enough to
> contaminate the water be in for a slam dunk civil case, they could be
> facing criminal charges as well. �Especially today, deliberately
> contaminating someones shared water is likely going to lead to serious
> trouble.
food coloring would be entirely safe but may scare the other user into
getting their own well...........
it wasnt really a serious suggestion
Chris Lewis
> food coloring would be entirely safe but may scare the other user into
> getting their own well...........
Explain to us what the possible consequences would be of, say, doing
this to a municipal water system.
That is, if you survive the consequences ;-)
> it wasnt really a serious suggestion
Good.
Chris Lewis
> I'm surprised the mere idea of well sharing is so foreign to
> everyone.
It's not foreign. However, entering into one of these without a firm
legal basis for it is not only foreign, but very unwise.
At least you seem to have a reasonable relationship with him.
Sharing electrical costs on a guess of, say, $10-20/month is perfectly
reasonable if you're both happy with it. Measuring it may be more trouble
than it's worth. You could put it in a repair fund.
The real issue is repairs. You need to discuss with him circumstances,
cost sharing, and what constitutes "shared equipment". That will
be well, well supply lines, pump, control systems, and almost certainly
pressure tank (unless you have checkvalves between it and where his feed
taps off). If you have a water softener that feeds him, it's shared too.
Do you have filters? Do they feed him? Etc.
How things get done if your neighbor can't get access to the equipment
while you're away is also an issue. Do you trust them enough to give
'em a key?
As for the initial installation cost, it's probably too late, but,
perhaps no harm in asking if your relationship is that good.
Now, once you get that all thrashed out, write it down in simple and
plain language (should be less than a page), and each should keep
a signed copy. That will keep things sane in the future.
Note: because of various incidents over the past years, people are
getting considerably more leary of small-scale water sharing. You don't
want to face major lawsuits over a contamination problem you didn't
catch. You'll probably need to advise your insurance company.
Oren
Lewis) wrote:
>According to hal...@aol.com <hal...@aol.com>:
>
>> food coloring would be entirely safe but may scare the other user into
>> getting their own well...........
>
>Explain to us what the possible consequences would be of, say, doing
>this to a municipal water system.
>
Room and Board at Gitmo!
>That is, if you survive the consequences ;-)
>
>> it wasnt really a serious suggestion
>
>Good.
(G)
--
Oren
bigji...@gmail.com
Could claim you were checking forleaks- after allit's YOUR well
Heaven bound.
Seems the main question everyone is answering is about the actual pump and
lines supplied by the seller. Are you to assume cost of a new pump since the
seller of the land paid for the well? If not then basic electricity is all I
would charge. As far as the pressure tank you installed does it backfeed into
their supply line? If so then they will rep the benefits of it as well. My
wife's parents are on our well also and I hear my pump kick on a lot when we
are not using water. But they are family so I'm glad to help their situation.
Should have bought one big bladder tank and put it at the well for both
houses. Hope this helps.
--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/sharing-well-and-pump-how-much-should-we-charge-290676-.htm
Swm1954
I'm in a similar situation. I own a rental house that has a well that is
shared with a neighbor. The well is on my property & the pressure tank is
under my house. My lawyer says if there is nothing written in the deed
concerning the shared well, then I can do what I want with what is on my
property. I just put in my fourth pump, have replaced wires 3 times and
pressure switches maybe 4 times. The neighbor has never paid for any
expenses, but does sometimes help with friends and relatives of his when we
need to pull out the pump. When I started doing it all myself, I asked him
to pay $50 per month to help cover costs. He did this for about 2 years &
then that stopped about 8 months ago. I couldn't figure out what the problem
was this time & I didn't have the time or help to do it myself, so I hired a
professional to do the work. They replaced the pump & wires again, so I have
to try to get money from the neighbor, while his wife is going through serious
health problems. I can legally cut off their water, according to my lawyer,
but I don't want to make any enemies & would feel guilty about making his wife
any sicker. But choosing to cut off their water is easier when I see them
buying new cars as I continue to repair & drive my old one. Also, I just
found out that he has his own well, but he just can't afford to put in the
pump, pipe, wiring, pressure tank & switch so he can have his own system.
Anyway, my suggestion to you is to check the deed & the laws in your state &
county. If there is nothing in writing requiring you to keep the water
running for your neighbor, you may be legally able to cut them off. Of
course, like in my case, you risk making an enemy.
Step2001
Lmao zim in that situation now.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/sharing-well-and-pump-how-much-should-we-charge-290676-.htm
RayRay
well, just break down the costs. you gotta know gallons / kwh of running the
pump. that will give you an idea of total water usage from all water usage.
then split that cost. even though you are using less water. or charge them
2/3 or 3/4 of electric cost to run the pump.
as for wear take the total life expectancy of a well pump, plus FUTURE
estimated replacement cost and divide it to get a yearly, then monthly "wear &
tear" figure. that would be fair to me .
my situation is a girlfriend with nephew, his gf and her daughter w/o water
for over a year now coming over to use my shower , get water to flush their
toilet and do laundry. I've had enpugh of it and want to calculate their
water usage (even estimated) so I can inform them the size of the favor I pay
for the additional usage they cause.
gfre...@aol.com
meters. Real meters are not cheap unless you can get a deal on used
ones from the utility.
I think the easiest way is just to run a tab and have all of the users
chip in equally. If you need to meter the electricity, used electric
meters are really cheap since utilities are moving to smart meters.
catalpa
"RayRay" <caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote in
message news:lNveB.364696$JP7.1...@fx09.am4...
Exactly what do you do to find 9 year old posts and why do you waste time
replying to them?
Ed Pawlowski
> tear" figure. that would be fair to me . my situation is a girlfriend
> with nephew, his gf and her daughter w/o water
> for over a year now coming over to use my shower , get water to flush their
> toilet and do laundry. I've had enpugh of it and want to calculate their
> water usage (even estimated) so I can inform them the size of the favor
> I pay
> for the additional usage they cause.
>
of visit, $30 would seem reasonable.
gfre...@aol.com
would get you about 3700 gallons of water/sewer with the fixed fees
according to the chart. I am not sure if there are additional taxes on
that tho.
ralph
Tell the lazy free-loading democrats to get a job and pay to have their
well fixed. Don't molly-coddle democrats, it just makes them even lazier.
hub...@ccanoemail.ca
>>
>>> tear" figure. that would be fair to me . my situation is a girlfriend
>>> with nephew, his gf and her daughter w/o water
>>> for over a year now coming over to use my shower , get water to flush their
>>> toilet and do laundry. I've had enpugh of it and want to calculate their
>>> water usage (even estimated) so I can inform them the size of the favor
>>> I pay for the additional usage they cause.
>>>
>>
>>I pay $60/month for water and sewer for 2 of us. Depending on frequency
>>of visit, $30 would seem reasonable.
>
>That is fairly cheap or you do not use much water. Around here $60
>would get you about 3700 gallons of water/sewer with the fixed fees
>according to the chart. I am not sure if there are additional taxes on
>that tho.
any maintenance / repair of the shared plant is split 50-50.
The line from my property to his is his problem alone.
It is a written agreement that is legally "attached" to our deed.
The cost hasn't changed since the 2 homes were built in 1991.
My lawyer says that I can cancel the agreement but would need to give
him significant time to make other arrangements - like a year ..
My other neighbour was being a nice guy and only charged his
neighbour $ 35. per year - and he has regretted it ever since -
the guy has been a jerk ..
John T.
Terry Coombs
the two of us unless I'm watering the garden . Then it will spike up to
around 35 max - no sewer charge since we're too far out and have a
septic system .
--
Snag
Ed Pawlowski
sewer is a flat rate quarterly. It is pretty consistent every quarter.
We could cut the bill by going naked all the time to eliminate laundry.
Instead of doing dishes, just eat right out of the pot.
Thomas
> Tell the lazy free-loading democrats to get a job and pay to have their
> well fixed. Don't molly-coddle democrats, it just makes them even lazier.
Ben Wronged
Lazy democrats are always looking fo free money. If they have their
water tested and find something wrong with it, they'll get one of those
sleazy late-night tv lawyers and sue yo ass. Even if you win, it will
cost you thousands to defend yourself. There's nothing to gain and
everything to lose. Send them packing ASAP.
debi randel
I also have the same question..howerever I think you are wanting to be paid
for the existing well and all the happy crap that goes. With it...usage fine
fees like the phone conversation...all that stuff was already paid for when it
was installed by whoever....done deal..your sharing the daily cost of it
operating now....put a clause in saying you will split cost if it breaks
steve a.
you answered your on question..you said "we agreed"
sure if he was trying to go back on his word you would have a problem
Oren
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to JohnnieMarr, steve a. wrote:
>you answered your on question..you said "we agreed"
> We agreed that we would pay for the electricity along with the rest of our
>electricity,..why cry now?if your neighbor had of made the same agreement i
>sure if he was trying to go back on his word you would have a problem
>
Leslie
Well said
T Long
Cost of electric used by pump .28 a hour to take a hour long cold shower cost
$ 0.28 according to co Mo electric co op people have been paying way to
much....
VOTE out dumocrats
I agree with you 100%! MAGA.
jessica69872006
--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/sharing-well-and-pump-how-much-should-we-charge-290676-.htm
trader_4
Not unusual. Presumably the landlord told you this before you signed a lease or
moved in. The landlord should have it in the lease. If you knew about it before,
what's the issue? I hope the landlord didn't tell you to go collect money from the
other tenant. The electric used for the pump isn't much, I'd think it's no
more than $5 a month or so, unless it's used for lawn watering or similar.
Frank
> Did you ever find out what to do ? I am having the same issue . We rent
> and the water pump is in our yard. But the landlord said that will
> paying for the neighbors down below us also.
>
about $2 a day for electricity. Landlord should adjust your rent to
account for this. Maybe he already has. At least as a renter you are
not responsible for well. I needed a new one two years ago and it cost
me $7,000. I have enough water to supply our small development but
thankfully do not have to.
trader_4
> On 2/19/2021 9:15 AM, jessica69872006 wrote:
> > Did you ever find out what to do ? I am having the same issue . We rent
> > and the water pump is in our yard. But the landlord said that will
> > paying for the neighbors down below us also.
> >
> Interesting to me as a well owner. Google tells me it could be costing
> about $2 a day for electricity.
at 0.13 per kwh, that, 0.10 per hour. To get to $2, the pump would have
to be running about 20 hours a day. If it runs an hour or two a day, it's
ten or twenty cents.
>Landlord should adjust your rent to
> account for this. Maybe he already has.
when it's a few bucks a month in a rent that's probably 200 times that,
I wouldn't go looking for trouble over it.
Ed Pawlowski
> and the water pump is in our yard. But the landlord said that will
> paying for the neighbors down below us also.
>
equally or put meters and split proportionally.
trader_4
tenants. Two meters would require two pumps and two separate water systems.
Many, probably most of these were never built with that in mind. Even two pumps
isn't possible, if it's a submersible, which is the most common type today. As I
see it, it's a $2 a month issue. But if this renter plans on going to the other
tenant to ask them to pay, I can see $2000 problems before it's over.
Ed Pawlowski
be harder to split the systems but from scratch it is just a tee fitting
and meters. In reality, the cost of the meters is probably 10 years of
pump electricity.
trader_4
a problem that does not exist is going to be a lot more than 10 years
of pump electric usage. By my calculations, it's a couple bucks a month.
So, to even it out, so that the other party is paying their $2 a month
accurately, it would seem to me that it's going to cost a lot more than
$240 bucks, ie ten years amount. And where does it end? I'm sure
there are plenty of duplexes where the landlord told one on the tenants
that they were responsible to mow the lawn. So now, what? Calculate
that value to the dollar? If you were a landlord that had a duplex where
the pump was on one tenant, what would you do? Tell the one tenant
that's the way it is, you're paying it, or go re-plumb the place, put in more
electric meters, etc?
Ed Pawlowski
month you factor $15 into each apartment.
trader_4
in to one tenant's electric meter and not separate from all their other usage.
The simple solution is to explain that to the tenant, that they will be paying
about $2 a month for the power attributable to the water for the other tenant,
that the rent is $1000 a month and that's factored in. The alternate solution
is to install water meters on both sides and an electric meter for the water
pump, then periodically read them, calculate how much each tenant should
pay and for the landlord to bill one $2 and send a check for $2 to the
other tenant, or quarterly $6. That doesn't sound simple to me.
And what do you think the new plumbing and electrical will cost? If I did that,
the rent would be $1025. Is everyone better off?
Kd
hadel
if it plugs in to an outlet , you can get one on amazon for $20. otherwise you need an electrician to hook it for you.
sanchez4040#icloud .com
Ed Pawlowski
> We've been sharing a well for over 20 years there 6 on the well the well
> manager owns 3 properties. We are all suppose to pay our share for
> electric and extra to save for well repairs. The well needed work done
> but the manager says the extra money went to bulk invoices when we only
> get 1 piece of paper a year. Now she wants to charge us for an
> accountant and taxes and lots of misalanius stuff that we don't know
> what that is. We need help. I can't find anyone
>
a meter for electric and divided by 6. Taxes? Again, she should be
able to show you the bill. Could be some sort of real estate tax.
You may or may not need an accountant but you should have a sit down
meeting with the manager to see all the bills and income. You many need
a lawyer to see the agreement you have or make a new one.
Scott Lurndal
during periods when the well couldn't provide sufficient water for the
six properties that share the wellhead - which is not uncommon in regions
suffering from the drought in the American west (DAMHIKT).
Those types of well sharing agreements are often part of the T&C associated with the
property and would have been disclosed during the property purchase.
hub...@ccanoemail.com
wrote:
and even among close neighbours - who have historically
different sharing agreements -
- when we moved here in '94 my well supplied one neighbour
at $ 250. per year and we haven't seen a need to increase it ;
a nearby neighbour was getting $ 25. per year from the
one home supplied from his well < ! >
.. based on a very old friendly-neighbour agreement.
John T.
sbsik
sbsik
8:28 PM (3 minutes ago)
to
I am in a similar situation. My neighbor and I purchased properties months apart from the same seller. There was only one well, and it was located on the neighbor's property.
This I can tell you: a written water agreement spelling things out goes a LONG way. When I purchased my property, I was not concerned about things like that. I SHOULD have been concerned about things like that. Thankfully, the seller was an attorney and set up a water agreement. It was signed by both my neighbor and me and runs with the land. It was part of the closing documents when I purchased my property and was recorded at the county recorder's office.
There is an electric meter which measures electricity used by the water system. Separate water meters measure each household's use, for the primary purpose of apportioning each household's share of the cost of the electricity used to run the water system. An easement was set up that allows my access to the water system and a water line to my property.
The agreement states that use of the water system is governed by the water agreement or by mutual agreement.
All maintenance costs are borne equally. The only restriction on use of water is that it cannot be used to water a permanent pasture.
The neighbor has used approximately 60 percent more water over time than I have. They have also decided that they can unilaterally create rules limiting my use of water. Thanks to the water agreement, it is clear that they lack the authority to do this. I am hugely grateful to the attorney seller for having the foresight to set up a formal water agreement.