Re: How to solder pipes with water running?
zxcvbob
> I have to solder 1/2-inch copper to the shower mixer/manifold. The street
> shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there is always some
> small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented vertically).
>
> How do I overcome this situation of water in the pipes where I need to
> solder? Surely one can't boil the water in the pipes with a little propane
> torch...
>
> I thought about turning on some water valve in the house that is lower, but
> even the bib in the garden is taller than these pipes.
>
> I've heard if you've got standing water in the pipes that you can wick it out
> with rope, or such, so you can solder, but I haven't heard any such trick for
> running water.
>
> What's the trick?
You can't solder pipes with water in them, even with an acetylene torch.
You can buy gelatin capsules (I think that's what they are) to plug
up dripping pipes so you can solder them, then the capsule dissolves.
I've done the same thing with bread before. *Maybe* if you open the bib
in the garden and even a few other faucets to keep the pressure from
building up, you can plug up the pipe good enough with one of those
dissolving plugs to solder it. It's worth a try. You also might look
for a flare or compression coupling that will work and avoid soldering
all together.
Or hire a plumber to replace the leaking street valve.
Best regards,
Bob
Speedy Jim
Although they get frowned upon, the compression fittings
may be a good choice in this situation.
Another possibility, depending on the service configuration,
is to loosen the union fitting at the water meter enough to
keep pressure relieved.
Jim
m Ransley
its the citys $ not your and put in a whole house shutoff. Sure maybe
an oxy acetylene torch may get it hot maybe not. And put in some dam
individual shut offs in that hack house. gees
casino...@fastq.com
DaveC <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> I have to solder 1/2-inch copper to the shower mixer/manifold. The street
> shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there is always some
> small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented vertically).
>
> How do I overcome this situation of water in the pipes where I need to
> solder? Surely one can't boil the water in the pipes with a little propane
> torch...
>
> I thought about turning on some water valve in the house that is lower, but
> even the bib in the garden is taller than these pipes.
>
> I've heard if you've got standing water in the pipes that you can wick it out
> with rope, or such, so you can solder, but I haven't heard any such trick for
> running water.
>
> What's the trick?
There is no trick, you can't solder in water. You could by a ProPress
but they are a little pricey. But if I were you, I'd start with a shovel
and dig out the meter box. There should be a union on the house side of
the meter and with two pipe wrenches I'd disconnect it and allow the
water to drain back from the house.
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SQLit
"zxcvbob" <zxc...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:2kdg6tF...@uni-berlin.de...
You do not have another valve at your house for a water shut off? I have
never seen a home with out the street valve and one at the home for control
of the water system. If you do not have one cut one in when the street valve
is replaced.
rck
bread up the pipe you want to solder. When finished, close faucets and
drains, turn water fully on and the bread will dissolve and flush out. Don't
overstuff or it could take a couple days for the bread to dissolve.
Bob
"DaveC" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BD06D4CC...@news.individual.net...
> I have to solder 1/2-inch copper to the shower mixer/manifold. The street
> shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there is always
some
> small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented vertically).
>
> How do I overcome this situation of water in the pipes where I need to
> solder? Surely one can't boil the water in the pipes with a little propane
> torch...
>
> I thought about turning on some water valve in the house that is lower,
but
> even the bib in the garden is taller than these pipes.
>
> I've heard if you've got standing water in the pipes that you can wick it
out
> with rope, or such, so you can solder, but I haven't heard any such trick
for
> running water.
>
> What's the trick?
> --
> DaveC
> m...@privacy.net
> This is an invalid return address
> Please reply in the news group
>
Brikp
part. See if it will fit.news:0001HW.BD06DD9F...@news.individual.net...
> Also, this all-brass Delta manifold has 4 male pipe-thread fittings (water
> supply; shower head out; tub spigot out). I guess I have to teflon-tape
all
> those and tighten on the copper fittings, then solder on the 1/2-inch
pipe?
> That's a lot of soldering to do at one time.
>
> Am I missing something? Or is this the way to solder on such a manifold?
>
> Thanks,
Jeff Wisnia
> I have to solder 1/2-inch copper to the shower mixer/manifold. The street
> shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there is always some
> small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented vertically).
>
> How do I overcome this situation of water in the pipes where I need to
> solder? Surely one can't boil the water in the pipes with a little propane
> torch...
>
> I thought about turning on some water valve in the house that is lower, but
> even the bib in the garden is taller than these pipes.
>
> I've heard if you've got standing water in the pipes that you can wick it out
> with rope, or such, so you can solder, but I haven't heard any such trick for
> running water.
>
> What's the trick?
As everyone else has told you, you can't solder them with water running
through the joints.
I'm suprised no one else has mentioned this yet, but if you really can't
or don't want to fix the shutoff, then since you asked, here's the "trick".
Go out and rent a pipe freezer, that's what they're made for. They come
in CO2 and electric versions. Here's a CO2 one now:
http://www.pollardwater.com/emarket/Pages/QF1500%20Qwik%20Freezer.asp
Good luck,
Jeff
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"My luck is so bad that if I bought a cemetery, people would stop dying."
Stormin Mormon
it. I know they sell "pipe freezers" for just this type of
thing. Never tried one of those, either.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
Phil Scott
> I have to solder 1/2-inch copper to the shower
mixer/manifold. The street
> shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there
is always some
> small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented
vertically).
>
> How do I overcome this situation of water in the pipes where
I need to
> solder? Surely one can't boil the water in the pipes with a
little propane
> torch...
I am a pro in that sort of business... its not possible.
If there is pressure or water in the pipe at the joint forget
it... water boils at 212F your solder melts at 500F +
depending.
>
> I thought about turning on some water valve in the house
that is lower, but
> even the bib in the garden is taller than these pipes.
>
> I've heard if you've got standing water in the pipes that
you can wick it out
> with rope, or such, so you can solder, but I haven't heard
any such trick for
> running water.
>
> What's the trick?
Go to the hardware store and buy a water service shut off T
handle wrench.. and some liquid wrench penetrant. Soak the
valve in the penetrant for an hour. then apply the wrench
(thats the cock valve at the water meter, out by your front
side walk most likely)... put a short piece of pipe on the
handles if necessary... but not longer than 15"... the valve
should close... if not use the small mini sledge hammer to tap
it gently... these get full of scale sometimes and take a
little persuasion.
Drain all water from the line you are going to solder, open
other valves in the house... follow directions to solder the
joint.
Hint: do not overheat it... just get it hot enough that the
solder flows freely.. practice on some copper scrap first.
Phil Scott
AndrewJ
>I have to solder 1/2-inch copper to the shower mixer/manifold. The street
>shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there is always some
>small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented vertically).
>
>How do I overcome this situation of water in the pipes where I need to
>solder? Surely one can't boil the water in the pipes with a little propane
>torch...
>
>I thought about turning on some water valve in the house that is lower, but
>even the bib in the garden is taller than these pipes.
>
>I've heard if you've got standing water in the pipes that you can wick it out
>with rope, or such, so you can solder, but I haven't heard any such trick for
>running water.
>
>What's the trick?
Hook up a wet vac to suck out the water. Leave it running while you
solder. Wear goggles. Setup the right way this will work for a fact.
Did two cottage renovations this way where four cottages were all
connected with one leaky shut-off.
You must be certain that none of this plumbing is connected to waste
lines or it could lead to an explosion. That is unlikely but sucking
sewer gas through a motor is a bad thing.
-----------------------
All lower case to respond by mail.
If you give a little they give a lot
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/disco
Noozer
> shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there is always
some
> small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented vertically).
Fix the shutoff valve thats broken... Also, you should have a shutoff
someplace in the house as well.
Curt Martin
DaveC wrote:
> I have to solder 1/2-inch copper to the shower mixer/manifold. The street
> shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there is always some
> small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented vertically).
>
> How do I overcome this situation of water in the pipes where I need to
> solder? Surely one can't boil the water in the pipes with a little propane
> torch...
>
> I thought about turning on some water valve in the house that is lower, but
> even the bib in the garden is taller than these pipes.
>
> I've heard if you've got standing water in the pipes that you can wick it out
> with rope, or such, so you can solder, but I haven't heard any such trick for
> running water.
>
> What's the trick?
>
If you don't have another shut off valve to your house, call the damn
water company and tell them to come fis their valve.
HVAC fella
compression fittings , then, youll be able to shut off the water to the
house so you can solder. If the water is only dripping out a bit at a
time, you can take some bread and cram it in until the dripping stops ,
then do your soldering. Then simply turn the water back on and the
bread will emulsify in the pipes and not clog up your faucets -- my
plumber friend taught me this trick.
Dave
_____________________________________________
Have you hugged your A/C Tech today ?
_____________________________________________
LDR
your house where the service entrance is. This would make sense even if
you did not have the problem you asked about. If one of your pipes broke
because it froze, or athrophied because it was galvanized, or a quake
erupted, whatever.. you'll be glad you didn't have to dig up the street
to turn off a valve that barely worked. A little water goes a long way:
don't find out the hard way.
Here's what I did years ago and I swear it worked. As another poster
suggested, I put dry ice on the pipe and aimed a housefan at it.In no
time, the water inside the pipe froze and I acutally had a surprising
lot of time to change the valve. Of course it is not a time to daudle
and it does take balls to do it, but, for what my personal archives are
worth, that's what I did, successfully. In fact, I rank it as my trival
life's greatest victory, just after giving up smoking.
n article <0001HW.BD06D4CC...@news.individual.net>,
m...@privacy.net says...
Yaofeng
I just have to chuckle. There is no limit to human ingenuity. But
why would anyone go such distance on a residential application is
beyond me. I'd rather install block valve to save future trouble. Or
make the city do it.
But again, the original poster maybe just a troll.
>
"Speedy Jim" <vo...@nls.net> wrote in message news:40E18B...@nls.net...
i wonder if siphoning from the hose bib might also help? the can/reservoir
at the ohter end of the siphon would have to be elevated at certain height.
*Maybe* if you open the bib
> > in the garden and even a few other faucets to keep the pressure from
> > building up, you can plug up the pipe good enough with one of those
> > dissolving plugs to solder it. It's worth a try. You also might look
> > for a flare or compression coupling that will work and avoid soldering
> > all together.
> >
> > Or hire a plumber to replace the leaking street valve.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bob
>
> Although they get frowned upon, the compression fittings
> may be a good choice in this situation.
>
> Another possibility, depending on the service configuration,
> is to loosen the union fitting at the water meter enough to
> keep pressure relieved.
be sure you can buy a replacement union washer. (rubber)
why doen'st teh water utilty fix theri meter/shutoffs?
> Jim
JerryD(upstateNY)
compression fitting.
then get it fixed at curb, replace all shut offs with ball valves, remove
the compression shut off.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
This is the best way to do it.
I did this exact thing in our old house.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
Ev
Can't have pressure behind it though.
e
"rck" <musonthemt....@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:YahEc.17850$w07....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
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BBB
don't use nice, wholesome, whole grain bread! The seeds wiped out the
guy's dishwasher. Use Wonderbread!
--
>==> Reply to the name above at poboxes dot com <==<
wayne
suck the water down that pipe!
Wayne
"BBB" <b...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:I4SdnZcmZtJ...@comcast.com...
Chip Stein
jet sweater, it's a rubber plug at the end of a 12" stalk. you stick
it in the pipe and turn it until the plug swells and seals, solder
away then remove. Any decent plumber knows about these. it works if
it's a straight shot. those gel caps aren't worth a shit!
Chip
Chip Stein
jet sweater, it's a rubber plug at the end of a 12" stalk. you stick
Chip Stein
jet sweater, it's a rubber plug at the end of a 12" stalk. you stick
TURTLE
"DaveC" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:0001HW.BD06D4CC...@news.individual.net...
> I have to solder 1/2-inch copper to the shower mixer/manifold. The street
> shut-off valve won't turn off the water completely, so there is always some
> small amount of water filling the pipes (they are oriented vertically).
>
> How do I overcome this situation of water in the pipes where I need to
> solder? Surely one can't boil the water in the pipes with a little propane
> torch...
>
> I thought about turning on some water valve in the house that is lower, but
> even the bib in the garden is taller than these pipes.
>
> I've heard if you've got standing water in the pipes that you can wick it out
> with rope, or such, so you can solder, but I haven't heard any such trick for
> running water.
>
> What's the trick?
> --
> DaveC
> m...@privacy.net
> This is an invalid return address
> Please reply in the news group
>
This is Turtle.
I think Speed Jim got it with the loosing of the union at the water meter and drain all the leakage through the water meter.
TURTLE
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Mili1
vacation
"AndrewJ" <andre...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t1g3e0ph7qf0ks82e...@4ax.com...
Barry Mann
flamable stuff inside their pipes. Perhaps it's hundreds of feet to the
next valves and they have to replace a valve or section of pipe. But,
what to do with the junk that will be trapped in the section to be
replaced or repaired?
There are companies that provide a freezing service. Two liquid
nitrogen filled jackets are placed to isolate the damaged section and
minimize the free liquid trapped in the work area. The frozen plugs act
as temporary valves.
Sure it's a bit of trouble, but it is much cheaper than unloading the
whole section.
-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: u...@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
JTMcC
"Barry Mann" <zz...@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40ebee42$1$avgroveq$mr2...@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
> Oil and chemical companies have a bigger problem. The've got toxic,
> flamable stuff inside their pipes. Perhaps it's hundreds of feet to the
> next valves and they have to replace a valve or section of pipe. But,
> what to do with the junk that will be trapped in the section to be
> replaced or repaired?
>
> There are companies that provide a freezing service. Two liquid
> nitrogen filled jackets are placed to isolate the damaged section and
> minimize the free liquid trapped in the work area. The frozen plugs act
> as temporary valves.
>
> Sure it's a bit of trouble, but it is much cheaper than unloading the
> whole section.
Well, there are a lot of options when welding on in service lines. Stoppers
with hot taps and a bypass, inflatable purge dams with inert purge, air
handlers, welding it hot, ect. Freezing is probably the most infrequently
used, by far.
JTMcC.
Greg
> I've heard of freezing the pipe with dry ice. Never tried
> it. I know they sell "pipe freezers" for just this type of
> thing. Never tried one of those, either.
I'm not sure, but I may have actually saved a workman's life once
while he was attempting this.
He was working alone, preparing to replace a main sprinkler system
shutoff valve. The pipe was maybe 4" diameter. He had some sort of
compressed CO2 tank that he was attempting to freeze the pipe with.
This sounded pretty iffy to me but I figured he knew what he was
doing.
A bit later I happened to go down to the basement to get something. As
I opened the door at the bottom of the stairs I felt like I couldn't
breathe. I called out to the workman, who was about twenty feet away
and around a corner. I got a very weak response.
I ran in and saw that he looked pretty woozy. I took his arm and led
him outside the building where he sat for a good long while.
The next week he had a crew dig up the street to close the city valve
rather than try the freezing technique again.
Greg Guarino
zxcvbob
I've never heard of using compressed CO2 to freeze a pipe that big.
There are electric pipe freezers that have a little refrigeration unit
in them for freezing pipes. That's what the plumber used when he
replaced the main shutoff valve at my water meter. (The street valve
was buried and the ground was frozen.)
Dry ice should work OK if you make a little wooden or styrofoam box to
insulate it, but I'd still call a plumber for a job like this -- there's
too much to go wrong if the ice plug breaks loose while you have the
pipe open and you can't get to a shutoff.
Bob
KLM
wrote:
>
>You do not have another valve at your house for a water shut off? I have
>never seen a home with out the street valve and one at the home for control
>of the water system. If you do not have one cut one in when the street valve
>is replaced.
>
Another person asked what would happen if you had a real leak. The
house could be flooded before the city or a plumber get to shut off
the street valve.
It seems that the priority here is to arrange for the city to fix the
street valve first and do it before winter. While they are doing
that you should get a inside house shut off valve installed. That
will solve a lot of your problems.
zxcvbob
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:27:21 -0500, ran...@webtv.net (m Ransley)
> wrote:
>
>
>>So what are you going to do when a real leak occurs , fix the main,
>>its the citys $ not your and put in a whole house shutoff. Sure maybe
>>an oxy acetylene torch may get it hot maybe not. And put in some dam
>>individual shut offs in that hack house. gees
>
>
> I did plumbing for many years. I once got an emergency call, saying
> the basement was flooding. I went to the job as fast as I could.
> When I got there, the basement was filled with 2 1/2 feet of water. I
> put on my boots and waded thru it, to shut off the street main. I
> shut off the valve, but the water kept gushing out of a broken pipe.
> The valve was useless.
>
> I made several attempts to slip a piece of hose over the broken pipe,
> since I always carried hose to fit 1/2" and 3/4" pipes. The other end
> of the hose had a pipe nipple and valve attached with a hose clamp. I
> hoped to clamp the hose to the pipe, but the pressure was so great
> that I could not get the hose on the pipe. [snip]
Bullshit. If the valve on the end of the short hose was open, the water
pressure would not prevent you from getting the hose on the pipe (unless
you just didn't want to get it on the pipe.) Actually, if you could get
to a threaded end of the pipe you could easily screw an open gate valve
on and then close the valve.
What was this, a 3/4" pipe? how many gallons per minute do you think a
3/4" pipe is capable of delivering? How many cubic feet is a basement?
Let's be generous and say it can deliver 15 gallons per minute, which
is about 2 cubic feet. If the basement was 20x30x8 feet, it would take
about 40 hours to fill it at that rate, not 5 or 6 hours.
It's a good story, but it doesn't hold water. ;-)
Best regards,
Bob
HorneTD
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:51:36 -0500, unli...@private.com wrote:
>
>
>>On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:27:21 -0500, ran...@webtv.net (m Ransley)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So what are you going to do when a real leak occurs , fix the main,
>>>its the citys $ not your and put in a whole house shutoff. Sure maybe
>>>an oxy acetylene torch may get it hot maybe not. And put in some dam
>>>individual shut offs in that hack house. gees
>>
>>I did plumbing for many years. I once got an emergency call, saying
>>the basement was flooding. I went to the job as fast as I could.
>>When I got there, the basement was filled with 2 1/2 feet of water. I
>>put on my boots and waded thru it, to shut off the street main. I
>>shut off the valve, but the water kept gushing out of a broken pipe.
>>The valve was useless.
>>
>>I made several attempts to slip a piece of hose over the broken pipe,
>>since I always carried hose to fit 1/2" and 3/4" pipes. The other end
>>of the hose had a pipe nipple and valve attached with a hose clamp. I
>>hoped to clamp the hose to the pipe, but the pressure was so great
>>sidewalk or curb shutoff tool, but when I went outside, I could not
>>find anything even resembling the shutoff marker cap.
>>
>>I finally called the city water dept. It took them over an hour to
>>arrive, and when they got there, they used a metal detector to find
>>the valve, only to discover that the thing was buried under the lawn,
>>and filled with dirt. It took several more hours to get a special
>>truck there to blow out the valve (with highly compressed air). By
>>the time they got the water shut off, the basement was nearly
>>completely filled with water, and everything down there was ruined.
>>
>>I later explained to the owners that their main valve was bad. They
>>told me that several plumbers in the past had told them to replace it.
>>I also told them their basement floor drain was plugged. They told me
>>that they knew it was. Well, they paid the price for not fixing
>>things properly, when it was needed. Not only did they have to pay me
>>many more dollars than they would if I had been able to shut off the
>>water, but had to pay me to pump out the basement, lost all the stuff
>>they had stored in the basement, including washer, dryer, furnace, and
>>water heater. They had to pay an electrician to inspect and repair
>>the electrical panel (Yes, I pulled the electric meter, and shut off
>>the natural gas while the basement was flooding). Had to pay me to
>>replace the water heater and furnace, and had to pay to have the
>>basement walls inspected for structural damage, and more....
>>I can imagine what their water bill was that month too, and I am not
>>sure if the water dept. charged them for an emergency call.
>>All this because of a defective $5 valve.
>>
>>REPLACE THAT VALVE NOW !!!
>
>
> Nice story.
>
> How long did it take you to make it up?
>
> You need to do more research before you fabricate things like
> this...or at least get a little more experience first.
>
>
> Have a nice week...
>
> Trent©
>
> What do you call a smart blonde?
> A golden retriever.
What makes you so sure that it is made up. I accompanied my father on a
nearly identical service call when I was a lad in Dedham,
Massachusetts low these many years ago. What was different about that
service call was that though the curb valve was working just fine it
took hours to find it beneath two feet of snow in the dark.
--
Tom H
HorneTD
How many times have you accomplished the task you say is so easy. I
have e worked on flowing lines that were 1/2 to 1" in size that were
dammed hard to get a valve onto. I watched and helped my dad with that
task a number of times. There are communities were the service pressure
to the house regulator exceeds 100 PSIG. In the days before quarter
turn ball valves it could be kind of tough to get a rising plate gate
valve onto a flowing line. My Dad would cut the ruptured pipe with a
pipe cutter, rethread the cut end, and thread a bell reducer onto the
new threads. The over sized gate valve was then attached by using a
union because there usually was not room to turn the valve. We would
both get soaked on the worst ones. Right here in Silver Spring,
Maryland I have been on flooded basement calls as a volunteer fire
fighter were a foot of water would accumulate before we could get the
service lateral shut off.
--
Tom H
zxcvbob
I didn't say it was easy, and I've never done it. But I think I could
get a full-flow gate valve on a flowing pipe in an emergency.
Hopefully, I'll never have to find out. I think there's a grain of
truth to "unlisted's" story, but he got caught up in the story and
embellished it way too much. Like the part about the basement
completely filling up in the few hours that the story transpired.
Replacing the valve is still a good idea, even if the story was
completely made up.
Bob
HorneTD
>
> But reread the OP post first. Do you think he's a plumber?...or do
> you think that he's a handyman?
>
> Consider...
>
> One post by him.
> He arrives at a basement with 2 1/2 feet of water.
> He comes with a jig that he's obviously used successfully before.
> Consider the total scope of all he finally did at that location.
>
> Maybe the OP will jump back in in the meantime!
>
>
> Have a nice week...
>
> Trent©
>
> What do you call a smart blonde?
> A golden retriever.
>
>
a plumbing and heating contractor. And the jig he had used before works
well on low pressure lines of say thirty pounds or less.
--
Tom H
HorneTD
Just for grins you might want to try it. Buy a garden house to pipe
thread adapter and a plastic gate valve and threaded adapter. The whole
set will cost about ten to fifteen dollars. Adapt a garden house spigot
to pipe thread, Open the spigot up until it is at maximum flow, try and
attach your valve assembly to the flowing line. If the pressure is over
fifty pounds your in for a struggle.
Maybe someone will do the math for us. How much flow would a relatively
clean three quarter inch lateral flow through forty feet of pipe if the
main that supplies it is at 100 PSIG which is quite normal here.
--
Tom H