PG&E Pole and anchors encroaching more than half the property area

[Paul A]

Hi,
In 2016 we purchased a property (a lot) which is about 10500 sq. ft. It's a perfect circle lot . We were recently were planning to build on it and found that the PG&E electrical Pole and it's anchors lines (3 of them) was encroaching more than half the property which makes it impossible to build a home. We understand they have easement on the deed. This easement was obtained in 1928 and it's in the deed documents it's clearly mentioned. However we understand when an easement is given , it has to be reasonable how it is used. The pole was installed more than 100 years ago and no on built anything there. In 1961 the land was subdivided into lots and the pole stayed by encroaching more than half the property.
So our concern is just because pg& has an easement for a pole, they simply cannot take more than half their property which makes it impossible for a property owner to build anything. We don't want to pay to move the pole when pg&e unreasonably put their pole in our property making the whole lot unusable when they had plenty of room to reasonably put the pole at the corner of the property or outside of it (the common area) where there's plenty of space. This is also a HOA community.
Anyone has some advice or how we should go about this? We are considering legal options (although limiting our legal costs) to have a simple solution or sue pg&e for making our property unusable! I mean logically there's no judge would look at this and see just because pg&e has an easement, they simply cannot take advantage of a situation and use up all or most of the property for their use , in turn making the property useless.

Thanks

[Randy Patzkowski]

On 3/23/2022 6:30:10 PM, Paul A wrote:
> In 2016 we purchased a property (a lot) which is about 10500 sq. ft. It's a perfect circle lot . We were recently were planning to build on it and found that the PG&E electrical Pole and it's anchors lines (3 of them) was encroaching more than half the property which makes it impossible to build a home. We understand they have easement on the deed.

> This is also a HOA community.

An unbuildable lot in a HOA? What were you thinking?
Sell the lot to some other sucker. LOL

[Ed Pawlowski]

You should check out that stuff before you buy. If the easement has
been in place that long you are screwed.

Check the HOA regulations. Maybe you can put in a nice vegetable garden.

You state the easement has to be reasonably used. To mount your defense
on that, hire a civil engineering firm and have them do a study and
prove there is a better way to place the pole. I bet you can get that
done for less than $20,000.

Remember, they did not take more than half the property. It was
subdivided later so their percentage became larger.

Check those HOA regulations. Maybe you can put one of those Tiny Homes
on the front edge. Or park a camper. Or a shed for the tools you need
for the vegetable garden.

I sincerely hope the people you bought the property from gave you a tube
of KY with the deed.

[trader_4]

If the pole was put there 100 years ago, how is it that you didn't see it before you bought this lot in 2016?
If the pole and the guy-wires were there when you bought it, my legal two cents is you're screwed.
If they were added later, given that the electric company has an easement, my legal two cents
is that you're still screwed. No jurisdiction is going to issue a building permit to build a structure where
there is an existing utility easement.

[trader_4]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 7:14:18 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/23/2022 6:30 PM, Paul A wrote:
> > Hi,
> > In 2016 we purchased a property (a lot) which is about 10500 sq. ft. It's a perfect circle lot . We were recently were planning to build on it and found that the PG&E electrical Pole and it's anchors lines (3 of them) was encroaching more than half the property which makes it impossible to build a home. We understand they have easement on the deed. This easement was obtained in 1928 and it's in the deed documents it's clearly mentioned. However we understand when an easement is given , it has to be reasonable how it is used. The pole was installed more than 100 years ago and no on built anything there. In 1961 the land was subdivided into lots and the pole stayed by encroaching more than half the property.
> > So our concern is just because pg& has an easement for a pole, they simply cannot take more than half their property which makes it impossible for a property owner to build anything. We don't want to pay to move the pole when pg&e unreasonably put their pole in our property making the whole lot unusable when they had plenty of room to reasonably put the pole at the corner of the property or outside of it (the common area) where there's plenty of space. This is also a HOA community.
> > Anyone has some advice or how we should go about this? We are considering legal options (although limiting our legal costs) to have a simple solution or sue pg&e for making our property unusable! I mean logically there's no judge would look at this and see just because pg&e has an easement, they simply cannot take advantage of a situation and use up all or most of the property for their use , in turn making the property useless.
> >
> > Thanks
> You should check out that stuff before you buy. If the easement has
> been in place that long you are screwed.
>
> Check the HOA regulations. Maybe you can put in a nice vegetable garden.
>
> You state the easement has to be reasonably used. To mount your defense
> on that, hire a civil engineering firm and have them do a study and
> prove there is a better way to place the pole. I bet you can get that
> done for less than $20,000.

Even that isn't going to be enough. I don't know there is any requirement that
a utility has to do a pole the best way, especially one that has been there for
100 years. If it's true that the pole can be secured
in another way that makes it possible to remove the easement from enough of
the land to make it usable, he could try to get the utility to do that, but I'd expect
even if they will do it, he's going to pay for it. Pay for both redoing the pole and
the legal work to remove the easement, etc.

>
> Remember, they did not take more than half the property. It was
> subdivided later so their percentage became larger.

Bingo. It sounds like the easement was not a great burden on the larger
lot and only became a big problem when it was subdivided into a small lot
with a big easement.

>
> Check those HOA regulations. Maybe you can put one of those Tiny Homes
> on the front edge. Or park a camper. Or a shed for the tools you need
> for the vegetable garden.
>
> I sincerely hope the people you bought the property from gave you a tube
> of KY with the deed.

Hard to figure if this is real or a troll. How could you buy a lot like that and
not see a utility poll rendering it useless?

[Dean Hoffman]

The lot is 118' across if it's a perfect circle. I've seen odd shaped fields because
of rivers, rail lines, etc but not one that's a circle.
There are circular houses if that would help the OP's situation.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/23/2022 8:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

>>> Remember, they did not take more than half the property. It was
>>> subdivided later so their percentage became larger.
>> Bingo. It sounds like the easement was not a great burden on the larger
>> lot and only became a big problem when it was subdivided into a small lot
>> with a big easement.
>>>
>>> Check those HOA regulations. Maybe you can put one of those Tiny Homes
>>> on the front edge. Or park a camper. Or a shed for the tools you need
>>> for the vegetable garden.
>>>
>>> I sincerely hope the people you bought the property from gave you a tube
>>> of KY with the deed.
>> Hard to figure if this is real or a troll. How could you buy a lot like that and
>> not see a utility poll rendering it useless?
>
> The lot is 118' across if it's a perfect circle. I've seen odd shaped fields because
> of rivers, rail lines, etc but not one that's a circle.
> There are circular houses if that would help the OP's situation.

Good idea. Better that circular is a wheel shape with a center open
section. They can build around the guy wire that way. The guy wire can
double as a clothes line.

[Thomas]

Knock it down and see what happens. Just do not get caught. Put the pink stakes on the perimeter circle.

[Marilyn Manson]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 6:30:15 PM UTC-4, panto...@gmail.com wrote:

It is unclear from your post whether you have actually talked to either the HOA
or PG&E. Have you? If so, what is the specific answer that you have been given?

If not, pick up the phone. I'd start with PG&E since it's their pole and their easement.
When my service provider replaced the poles in my neighborhood, I asked the
on-site crew to place the one next to my driveway about 4 ft west of the old location
to make it more convenient for us to park and they did it with a smile.

Another question: What is the real problem - the pole or the guy wires?

In my experience, the pole doesn't need guy wires to the ground if it's attached to
other poles via wires, assuming the load on the pole is balanced. With all the lot-
splitting you mentioned, maybe there is no need for the guys wires any longer. Maybe
the wires could be reconfigured to support the pole in a different manner. Even a
new pole on your lot to support the offending pole with it's own guy wires that would
not cause a building problem. Again, have you actually talked to anyone about your
issue?

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

>
>In my experience, the pole doesn't need guy wires to the ground if it's attached to
>other poles via wires, assuming the load on the pole is balanced.
>

Down-guys are commonly placed when the next-pole-along
has extra strain - like a corner pole.
And for other reasons that aren't always obvious.
If the OPs lot is taken-up with guy wires it might be a
large sub-transmission pole rather than a simple feeder
but - as usual on usenet - too little information ..
John T.

[Scott Lurndal]

hub...@ccanoemail.ca writes:
>
>>
>>In my experience, the pole doesn't need guy wires to the ground if it's attached to
>>other poles via wires, assuming the load on the pole is balanced.
>>
>
>
>Down-guys are commonly placed when the next-pole-along
>has extra strain - like a corner pole.

My longest power outage to date was caused by a
driver[*] missing a 20mph curve and hitting the guy-wire
for a guy-pole. The wire took out the pole, which
was guy-ing (is that a word?) two primary poles
across the road. Both of those primary poles snapped
and one additional primary pole snapped due to
the tension on the primary lines themselves.

Took PG&E almost 24 hours to replace all three primary
poles, the guy pole and the guy-lines and re-establish
the primary.

[*] driving a used crown vic police interceptor.

[Marilyn Manson]

My longest power outage was 5 days due to an ice storm. I
watched the transformer across from my house explode.
30-ish years ago

I was lucky that the wires from the pole to my house were
intact - on the ground, but intact. I cleared all the debris and
placed the wires on top of my wooden fence, 6' off the ground.
My neighbors on both sides never touched their yards so
their wires were tangled in a pile of limbs.

When they finally restored power to the neighborhood they
went house by house looking at the condition of the wires
from the poles to the houses. They deemed mine safe enough
to energize. I had power 4 days earlier than my neighbors.
They had to clear their wires and then get them lifted off the
ground before the PoCo would energize them.

Not sure I'd get away with my method today, but it worked
back then. I have a generator and inlet now, so if the estimated
repair time is greater than 2 hours, I hook it up. 3 times in the
last 2 years.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 14:43:49 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Even modern steel towers will fall like dominos
given the right <wrong> conditions :

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/town_county/storm-blows-out-village-power/article_72317748-2c06-57eb-8391-3b5ebb72c77b.html

John T.

[Marilyn Manson]

I'll bet that ruined a bunch of (very expensive) vacations.

[Paul A]

Yes we initially talked to PG&E few years ago. Even opened an application. But in the process we found that the pole is the main feeder to the community and at&t and cable providers rent the pole from pg&e . We also mentioned to them about the guy wires (3 of them). It's much easier to relocate and they were all just talk saying engineering wise this and that . All they wanted us to put in a down payment of 2 or 3K without even telling us a rough estimate. They say once the down payment is put, then they will use the engineering to see if they can either relocate the pole or guy wires or both. And then provide the estimate. For us what if we spend 5K and then pg&e comes up with some ridiculous numbers and it would be a waste. So we were rethinking and after 1 year or so the application expired. We can start again now. But now we're thinking maybe we can ask them to maybe move the guy wires and estimate only for that. In midst of this , we had to do a survey correctly to see where the pole is in relation with the lot border. The surveyor mentioned something about in the original survey map there's a easement was marked two properties down from us , but nothing was marked on the map on our lot (in 1928 or 1948 or 1961 when it was subdivided). So his thought was why wasn't it marked on the map although it was mentioned in the deed. But people say, once it was mentioned in the deed, then marking on the map is not legally needed. His take was (still need to be verified) is that pg&e had a easement on some other area and because in those days it was just a jungle, they just put the pole in our lot (when it was no lot, for convenience) and got away with it. They should have actually put it in another area outside of the lot which was actually marked on the original as well as updated survey map the county has. Our surveyor mentioned why not ask pg&e to show us documents that proves this. And also mentioned that how did HOA allow this even to be sold as a property and maybe it is their fault. And they should deal with PG&E or allow us to take a bit of the common area (controlled by HOA) to extend our building into it. Even if a easement was mentioned in the deed, usually it should say where or how much they will use. Just because there's a easement, they shouldn't do ridiculous thing like simply use the whole property as they like. Doesn't make sense.

[Marilyn Manson]

What's much easier to relocate? What is the "It's" you are referring to?

> All they wanted us to put in a down payment of 2 or 3K without even telling us a rough estimate.
> They say once the down payment is put, then they will use the engineering to see if they can either
> relocate the pole or guy wires or both. And then provide the estimate. For us what if we spend
> 5K and then pg&e comes up with some ridiculous numbers and it would be a waste.

Why did you jump from "2 or 3K" to "5K"?

> So we were
> rethinking and after 1 year or so the application expired. We can start again now. But now we're
> thinking maybe we can ask them to maybe move the guy wires and estimate only for that. In midst
> of this , we had to do a survey correctly to see where the pole is in relation with the lot border. The
> surveyor mentioned something about in the original survey map there's a easement was marked two
> properties down from us , but nothing was marked on the map on our lot (in 1928 or 1948 or 1961
> when it was subdivided). So his thought was why wasn't it marked on the map although it was
> mentioned in the deed. But people say, once it was mentioned in the deed, then marking on the map
> is not legally needed.

"People say"? What people? Seems like the surveyor you hired thinks it should be on the map. Whose
word are you taking - his or "people's"?

> His take was (still need to be verified) is that pg&e had a easement on some
> other area and because in those days it was just a jungle, they just put the pole in our lot (when it was
> no lot, for convenience) and got away with it. They should have actually put it in another area outside
> of the lot which was actually marked on the original as well as updated survey map the county has.
> Our surveyor mentioned why not ask pg&e to show us documents that proves this. And also mentioned
> that how did HOA allow this even to be sold as a property and maybe it is their fault. And they should
> deal with PG&E or allow us to take a bit of the common area (controlled by HOA) to extend our building
> into it.

And are you following his paid-for advice by asking for the PG&E documents and talking to the HOA?

In your OP you asked "Anyone has some advice or how we should go about this?" (sic) when it sounds like
you have already been given some pretty decent advice.

> Even if a easement was mentioned in the deed, usually it should say where or how much they
> will use. Just because there's a easement, they shouldn't do ridiculous thing like simply use the whole
> property as they like. Doesn't make sense.

Be careful with your wording. My advice is to not go off half cocked and use phrases like "use the whole
property as they like". Get the facts and speak to those facts. Getting all emotional won't help your cause.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/24/2022 3:18 PM, Paul A wrote:

>
> Yes we initially talked to PG&E few years ago. Even opened an application. But in the process we found that the pole is the main feeder to the community and at&t and cable providers rent the pole from pg&e . We also mentioned to them about the guy wires (3 of them). It's much easier to relocate and they were all just talk saying engineering wise this and that . All they wanted us to put in a down payment of 2 or 3K without even telling us a rough estimate. They say once the down payment is put, then they will use the engineering to see if they can either relocate the pole or guy wires or both. And then provide the estimate. For us what if we spend 5K and then pg&e comes up with some ridiculous numbers and it would be a waste.

Having had some experience with engineering studies, (dam, pond, water
level) 5k is far too light. Crap shoot. You can spend double that and
not like the result.

So we were rethinking and after 1 year or so the application expired.
We can start again now. But now we're thinking maybe we can ask
them to maybe move the guy wires and estimate only for that. In
midst of this , we had to do a survey correctly to see where the pole is
in relation with the lot border. The surveyor mentioned something
about in the original survey map there's a easement was marked two
properties down from us , but nothing was marked on the map on our lot
(in 1928 or 1948 or 1961 when it was subdivided). So his thought was
why wasn't it marked on the map although it was mentioned in the deed.
But people say, once it was mentioned in the deed, then marking on the
map is not legally needed.

I'm not a lawyer but I think that is correct but ask one to be sure.
What is the wording in the deed? If it gives a particular section of
the property they can pretty much do what they want in that area. It
may ave been worded loosely in 1928 to encompass the whole area as back
then it was not prime building lots.

His take was (still need to be verified) is that pg&e had a easement
on some other area and because in those days it was just a jungle, they
just put the pole in our lot (when it was no lot, for convenience) and
got away with it. They should have actually put it in another area
outside of the lot which was actually marked on the original as well as
updated survey map the county has. Our surveyor mentioned why not
ask pg&e to show us documents that proves this. And also mentioned
that how did HOA allow this even to be sold as a property and maybe it
is their fault.

Did the HOA exist in 1928?

And they should deal with PG&E or allow us to take a bit of the common
area (controlled by HOA) to extend our building into it.

Why? Doubt that will happen just because you want it

Even if a easement was mentioned in the deed, usually it should say
where or how much they will use. Just because there's a easement, they
shouldn't do ridiculous thing like simply use the whole property as they
like. Doesn't make sense.

Not to you today but it may have in 1928. Just unused land, do what you
need. What is the wording?

Biggest problem I see is money. My guess is PG&E has more money and
lawyers than you do. Given the importance of that pole I'd say it is
not moving. Maybe guy wire if engineers say there is another way.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 3:18:45 PM UTC-4, panto...@gmail.com wrote:

What doesn't make sense and what I asked about after your first post is how is it
that you bought this lot in 2016 with this pole and the guy-wires obstructing it so that
it's unusable to build on? It's not some hidden defect. Maybe you got it for $1
because it was unusable, unsalable and now you want to make it into someone else's
problem. Paying the utility $2K to find out what is possible to solve a problem that
they did not make does not sound entirely unreasonable to me. It's certainly cheap
compared to any other options. Given that this pole now has AT&T and cable providers
using it too, that will increase the cost.

"Even if a easement was mentioned in the deed, usually it should say where or how much they will use. "

Typically with something like this, it says they can use any of the area called out in the easement.
That's the purpose of the easement, it defines where the easement is and what it can be used for.