Best way to wire an outdoor box

[fred.fl...@thecave.com]

I'm referring to this kind of electrical box.
http://www.asi-ez.com/pix/Prod/ASI1B503.gif

When wiring one of these waterproof outdoor boxes on a wall, I've found
that it's not possible to use the traditional methods. What I mean is
that when the box sits flat against the wall, you cant use a romex clamp
on the back. I dont care to have the wire exposed where it enters the
box from the top, bottom or side, so I always bring the wire in the rear
hole. The problem is that you cant clamp it, unless you make a large
enough hole for the whole clamp. While that may seem ok, it's really
not, because water will get behind the box and into the wall.

While my method may not be up to code (due to lack of a clamp), I've
simply drilled a 1/2" hole in the wall, ran the wire thru that hole and
used silicone caulk around the romex. After the silicone drys, I just
let the wire come thru the hole in the box without a clamp. Before
wiring it, I put more silicone in the threaded hole around the cable to
seek water from entering this box.

Is there any other method for doing this?

[RBM]

There are other types of connectors, that can be used, but all of them
will still require a hole around 1 1/4" diameter. I typically lay a
small bead of silicone around the top and half way down the sides of the
box to prevent water entry between the box and structure. It is a
requirement to seal the threaded knockouts as well, or water will seep
into the box.

[Oren]

I have two of these boxes I installed when the columns were built for
my patio cover. The clamp is installed from inside the box (back side
hole), the wire exits OSB first. Mounted the box. Sealed the other
caps to prevent leaks inside.

Then had the columns stuccoed. They are actually recessed into the
stucco after the three coat stucco was applied. GFCI receptacles.

Passed inspection. No chance for water entry (seldom rains in the
desert).

Put the clamp inside the box first, not from the back outside
position. Easy greasy :-\

[Steve Barker]

put the clamp on the inside. use an offset screwdriver to tighten the
screws. Or keep doing what you're doing.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:50:14 -0400, RBM <rb...@live.com> wrote:

Short conduit stub in the box, stuff it in the hole and seal it with
caulk or spray foam, or "dum-dum". Pull the wire in.

[RBM]

To do it correctly, you'd still need a connector on the end of the conduit

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Yes - but a lot more compact than a Romex clamp.

[John Grabowski]

*I usually cut the screws on the Romex connector to make it more compact. I
stuff the hole in the wall with duct seal and caulk around the box. In a
pinch I have used a button connector, but they don't always hold well in a
threaded knockout.

[bud--]

What connector are you using on the end of the conduit.

Is the conduit stub attached to the waterproof box? That connector also
requires a larger hole.

Or maybe you are creating a future Holmes project.

I use RBM's method, with John G's modification. Some waterproof boxes I
drill a hole in the bottom in case water gets in.

bud--

[fred.fl...@thecave.com]

Thanks to all who replied.

What is a button connector?

[RBM]

I actually do the button connector thing as well. I like the fact that
it's an insulator, so if the cable sheath gets cut, nothing will short.
I do use my dikes and modify the button so it fits tight , yet allows
enough room to get the cable through

[RBM]

That was my thought as well. Pipe nipple to threaded coupling to romex
connector, or emt connector to emt to emt/NM choke fitting. How is any
of that more compact

[DerbyDad03]

On Jul 17, 3:15 pm, RBM <r...@live.com> wrote:
> On 7/17/2012 10:53 AM, bud-- wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 7/16/2012 6:42 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> >> On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:27:31 -0400, RBM<r...@live.com>  wrote:
>
> >>> On 7/16/2012 8:15 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> >>>> On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:50:14 -0400, RBM<r...@live.com>  wrote:

> of that more compact- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Wouldn't a threaded PVC terminal connector and a length of PVC conduit
through the wall be a bit more compact than a Romex connector on the
back of the box?

Don't know...just asking.

[tra...@optonline.net]

> Don't know...just asking.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, but then if you pull the romex through it,
which is what the OP was using, then you
still don't have the romex clamped. I've seen
a lot of them done and passed though where
they just pulled the romex through the wall,
into a hole on the box, with no clamp. It
doesn't seem like the worse thing in the world
either, as long as the cable is otherwise
secured nearby before it goes through the
wall.

[RBM]

A little bit, but you still have to clamp the romex to the conduit.

[RBM]

The proper thing to use would be a romex connector threaded into the
back of the box. In my opinion, it makes for a sloppy job, plus I've had
too many occasions where there were sharp burrs on the romex connector
which cut through the jacket, and the conductors and shorted the cable.
This is why I like the Arlington black buttons. (NM-94) They're plastic,
so they insulate. They also hold the cable adequately, and like you say,
where's it going to go. The only caveat is that the buttons aren't
exactly designed for threaded entries, but with a little improv, they
work great.

[DerbyDad03]

What if you transition to single conductors via a junction box inside
the house before going through the wall?

Do single conductors entering a box via conduit have to be secured in
any manner?

[RBM]

That would be fine. If you had a box on the inside, with a knockout in
the back that lined up with the knockout on the outside bell box, you
could cut a short piece of pvc with male adapters on each end, locknut
one end on the inside and thread the outside end into the box. It's just
not the most likely scenario.

[John Grabowski]

*It is a plastic push-in type connector that is very compact and fast to
install. Check the links below:

http://www.aifittings.com/products/images/products/NM96.jpg

http://www.aifittings.com/catalog/non-metallic-fittings-and-supports/black-button-non-metallic-push-in-connectors/NM94

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 08:53:01 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>
wrote:

The BEST way is actuallu a piece of rigid conduit threaded directly
into the back of the weatherproof box, stuffed through the hole in the
wall. Next best is conduit fitting (90 degree) threadeed into one of
the ends of the weatherproof with the box either above or below the
hole the conduit goes through. It can even be sceptre conduit
(plastic)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Granger part #3KG85 (Bell) or equivalent. weatherproof box has 3
threaded openings - top, bottom, and back. Plug top and bottom. Thread
Granger Item # 2CLG3 (power first) or equivalent in the back hole and
stuff it through the wall. Hole needs to be no more than 1.060 inches
to fit the 1.050" diameter conduit.

My local supply house has the parts (different brands) at roughly half
the Granger price, a mile away, in stock.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

And a hunk of rigid conduit even MORE compact.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Better yet, put a junction box on the inside, romex to the box, and
individual conductors to the outside, - no clamp required.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

In answer to your second question, no.

[DerbyDad03]

Good thing cuz I have a few exterior boxes wired that way. I think I
remember checking years go when I wired them but I figured I'd ask
again just to remind myself.

Why does Romex have to be secured?

[RBM]

You seem to be repeatedly missing the point. The Nec doesn't allow you
to just shove a cable through a pipe nipple, which is threaded into the
hub of a box. IT NEEDS TO BE CLAMPED!!!

Even if you used a nipple as a sleeve, it would still require threaded
bushings at the ends, which of course increase it's diameter

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Put a romex clamp on the inside end, strip a foot of the Romex and
feed the "unsheathed" cable through the conduit - and if you read my
previous post you do NOT need threaded bushings (because the conduit
is threaded)

[RBM]

Apparently, you don't know what a threaded bushing is, or what it's
for... either

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

OK - you are talking about the insulator bushing that goes on the
inside of the box. In which case there is no increase in the diameter
of the conduit where it goes through the wall.

[HerHusband]

Mr. Flintstone,

> I'm referring to this kind of electrical box.
> http://www.asi-ez.com/pix/Prod/ASI1B503.gif
> When wiring one of these waterproof outdoor boxes on a wall, I've found
> that it's not possible to use the traditional methods.

Simple answer, don't use that kind of box. Those are designed for surface
mounting with the cable coming in through conduit.

If you want a flush outlet with the cable coming in from the wall, use a
regular "Remodel" style box. Hold it against the wall where you want to
install it, and trace around the perimeter with a pencil (don't include
the mounting flanges at the top and bottom). Take the box down, drill
holes in each of the four corners, then use a jigsaw to cut out the
square opening. Pull the romex out of the wall and feed it into the cable
restraint in the back of the box. Slip the box in the opening, and
tighten down the mounting screws so the "wings" on the back of the box
swing out and lock the box to the wall. If the wall is too thick for the
wings and/or you want additional strength, you can also add screws to the
face of the box. Then install your electrical outlet or switch as usual.
To keep things watertight install an outdoor rated electrical cover (the
kind with the flaps that cover the outlets, or the full cover that lets
you leave cords plugged in). I usually caulk around the perimeter of the
wall opening before installing the box, just for a little added leak
protection. The result is a nice clean installation, with a secure cable,
and no box to bang against on the outside of the wall.

> What I mean is that when the box sits flat against the wall,
> you cant use a romex clamp on the back.

If you must use the surface mount box, install a pipe nipple on the back
that is long enough to reach inside the wall. Then install an "anti-short
bushing" on the opposite end of the pipe nipple so the sharp pipe edge
won't cut into the cable. Then drill a hole large enough for the pipe
nipple and bushing to fit through. If you have access to the stud on the
backside of the wall, use a normal cable clamp to secure the cable to the
stud within 12" of your box. Then feed the cable into the pipe nipple,
caulk around the opening, and secure the box to the wall. Install your
device and a waterproof cover.

Anthony Watson
www.anthonywatson.us
www.mountain-software.com

[bud--]

> ...

>Thread
> Granger Item # 2CLG3 (power first) or equivalent in the back hole and
> stuff it through the wall. Hole needs to be no more than 1.060 inches
> to fit the 1.050" diameter conduit.
>

An insulating bushing is required on the end of the nipple, but that is
still a code violation - the romex has to be clamped the end of the pipe.

It is not particularly difficult to put a romex connector on the back of
the box and seal box to wall.

I am beginning to understand how Holmes finds the disasters in Canadian
houses.

--
bud--

[bud--]

Then you have a box on the inside which may be useful or not.

>
> Why does Romex have to be secured?

In general all wiring methods have to be secured to a box.

--
bud--

[DerbyDad03]

> bud--- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Not true as far as I understand it.

See the earlier posts from RBM and cl...@snyder.on.ca, both of which
confirmed my understanding that single conductors entering a box via
conduit do not have be secured to the box.

Assuming that that is correct, then my question still stands.

[RBM]

Bud is absolutely correct. All wiring methods must be secured to a box.
You asked if individual conductors within a conduit must be secured, and
they needn't be , however the wiring method, the conduit, must be
secured to the box. Likewise, if you transition from one wiring method
to another, they must be secured to each other. This is why you can's
just thread a pipe nipple to the back of a bell box and slip the romex
through it, (as Clare suggested), the pipe nipple needs to be clamped to
the romex.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:40:18 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>
wrote:

Bud. You are not listening. You are seeing "canada" and getting your
back up. If individual conductors enter the box, no clamp is required
at that end - although the insulator inside the box is. The romex can
be clamped at the inside end of the conduit nipple - which is attached
inside the wall, so does not need to be passed through the hole. The
hole only needs to pass the conduit . The proper way would be a
junction box inside, on the end of the conduit, transitioning from
romex to thhn, but using a threaded coupling, with a romex clamp on
the inside end, and separated wires (unsheathed) into the box through
the conduit, meets the requirement of code

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:43:09 -0600, bud-- <remove....@isp.com>
wrote:

The Romex clamp keeps the wires from being put under tension at the
conductor. The conduit protects the wire where it enters the box,
giving the same protection to the connections.

[RBM]

It is not often that you have open space on the inside of a building,
directly in line with an outside box, to locate an otherwise unnecessary
junction box. This however would be a proper method to feed an outside
box, and if this had been your first reply, and not your sixth try at
it, you might be taken for someone that has a clue.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

If the wire comes through the header (rim joist) or the basement
wall, which many do, there IS room for the junction box. If it comes
through a studded wall a junctiom box can be installed in the wall
with a blank cover. Not good in a nicely finished area.

I was working on the ASS U mption that the outside box was outside a
basement wall, or rim joist like most I've worked on.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Jul 18, 7:00 pm, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:38:42 -0400, RBM <r...@live.com> wrote:
> >On 7/18/2012 4:58 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> >> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:40:18 -0600, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com>

> >> wrote:
>
> >>> On 7/17/2012 5:39 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> >>>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:15:48 -0400, RBM<r...@live.com>  wrote:
>
> >>>>> On 7/17/2012 10:53 AM, bud-- wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/16/2012 6:42 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> >>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:27:31 -0400, RBM<r...@live.com>   wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> On 7/16/2012 8:15 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:50:14 -0400, RBM<r...@live.com>   wrote:

Maybe. Sometimes.

If it comes
> through a studded wall a junctiom box can be installed in the wall
> with a blank cover. Not  good in a nicely finished area.

That's for sure.

>
> I was working on the ASS U mption that the outside box was outside a

> basement wall, or rim joist like most I've worked on.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

In my experience, it's rare to see either of the
above arrangements you are talking about.
Around here, they just run the romex
through the wood hole and into the box outside.
The romex is secured inside with a staple close
to where it enters the wall. From there it's
inacessible, so virtually impossible for anyone
to pull on it. And they pass inspection. I
can show you AC disconnects all over the place
installed that way that passed inspection.
Does it technically meet NEC? Apparently not.
But IMO in the grand scheme of things, it's
safe.

One can also wonder if it is not routinely done this
way and people are employing exotic solutions to
comply, why there are not some simple clamps
available for this express purpose.

[bud--]

And a problem if an unfinished area later becomes a "nicely finished area".

>
>>
>> I was working on the ASS U mption that the outside box was outside a
>> basement wall, or rim joist like most I've worked on.
>

> In my experience, it's rare to see either of the
> above arrangements you are talking about.
> Around here, they just run the romex
> through the wood hole and into the box outside.
> The romex is secured inside with a staple close
> to where it enters the wall. From there it's
> inacessible, so virtually impossible for anyone
> to pull on it. And they pass inspection. I
> can show you AC disconnects all over the place
> installed that way that passed inspection.
> Does it technically meet NEC? Apparently not.
> But IMO in the grand scheme of things, it's
> safe.
>
> One can also wonder if it is not routinely done this
> way and people are employing exotic solutions to
> comply, why there are not some simple clamps
> available for this express purpose.

I can't understand the difficulty. It is not hard to use a romex clamp
and do it right.

--
bud--