Generac 8Kw generator balky start and transfer switch makes clicking sounds

[Danny D.]

The power went out today, as expected (it goes out in almost every good storm),
but, what was unexpected was that the Generac 8KW generator didn't kick in.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7488/16002089532_6aff47f371_b.jpg

I had to manually flip the power switch a few times, from auto to manual to off
and back (even though it was on auto all the time and the battery was charged
as evidenced by a 3.8VDC check on the side panel) and there is plenty of
propane in the 500 gallon propane tank. I flipped the breaker a few times.
I pulled the fuse and it looked good.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8679/15815391388_9086fb0b88_b.jpg

Everything looked ok electrically, and, after a few flips of the switch,
it turned on. Recently on its weekly charging cycle, it had been turning
off and on after only a few seconds, so, that's probably related.

While the Generac not starting is one problem, the other oddity was that,
once started, and seemingly running full force, the transfer switch(s)
inside the garage were clicking for about five or ten minutes and then
stopped clicking.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7505/16002089322_521ae182de_b.jpg

I opened the panels, but by the time I opened them, the clicking had
stopped.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7508/15817034197_b2a2d214de_b.jpg

I took a video of the clicking, but I'm not sure where to upload
the movie (it's a 24MB MOV file from an iPad) if needed. Here is
a closeup of each panel - which seems to have a big solenoid inside:
Left: https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7522/16002089132_a30301e7ec_c.jpg
Right: https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7525/16002089242_ece9eca41d_c.jpg

I'm guessing that the propane generator wasn't up to speed at first,
for whatever reason, and that the voltage wasn't as high as it needed
to keep the solenoids down, so, they were clicking? But I never heard
that clicking before, and, the lights were running as soon as the
generator kicked in.

Any debugging suggestions?

[trader_4]

On Friday, December 12, 2014 2:12:39 AM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
> The power went out today, as expected (it goes out in almost every good storm),
> but, what was unexpected was that the Generac 8KW generator didn't kick in.
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7488/16002089532_6aff47f371_b.jpg
>
> I had to manually flip the power switch a few times, from auto to manual to off
> and back (even though it was on auto all the time and the battery was charged
> as evidenced by a 3.8VDC check on the side panel) and there is plenty of
> propane in the 500 gallon propane tank. I flipped the breaker a few times.
> I pulled the fuse and it looked good.
> https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8679/15815391388_9086fb0b88_b.jpg
>
> Everything looked ok electrically, and, after a few flips of the switch,
> it turned on. Recently on its weekly charging cycle, it had been turning
> off and on after only a few seconds, so, that's probably related.
>
> While the Generac not starting is one problem, the other oddity was that,
> once started, and seemingly running full force, the transfer switch(s)
> inside the garage were clicking for about five or ten minutes and then
> stopped clicking.
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7505/16002089322_521ae182de_b.jpg
>
> I opened the panels, but by the time I opened them, the clicking had
> stopped.
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7508/15817034197_b2a2d214de_b.jpg
>

What was going on with the power to the house while this clicking
was going on? Lights going on and off?

> I took a video of the clicking, but I'm not sure where to upload
> the movie (it's a 24MB MOV file from an iPad) if needed. Here is
> a closeup of each panel - which seems to have a big solenoid inside:
> Left: https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7522/16002089132_a30301e7ec_c.jpg
> Right: https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7525/16002089242_ece9eca41d_c.jpg
>
> I'm guessing that the propane generator wasn't up to speed at first,
> for whatever reason, and that the voltage wasn't as high as it needed
> to keep the solenoids down, so, they were clicking?

It's possible it's RPM related. They have control electronics
that presumably look for certain conditions to be present, eg correct
voltage, before putting it online.

But I never heard
> that clicking before, and, the lights were running as soon as the
> generator kicked in.
>
> Any debugging suggestions?

I guess that answers the question about the lights, sounds like
they were on the whole time.

Any possibility the utility power was intermittent, coming back
sporadically? If what you were hearing was the main power relay's
moving, I don't see how you could have clicking and uninterrupted
lights.

For what it's worth, I did some digging into about a 5 year old Generac
that I got for free, to try to resurrect it. The company that had
sold/installed it said it was shot and not worth fixing. This was
just used for house standby here where the power rarely goes out for
more than 15 mins. After I read the many
horror stories on reviews at Amazon, I concluded that I wouldn't buy
one, wouldn't rely on one, and that it wasn't worth putting the
money into the free one. At a minimum, the rotor was shot, possibly the
stator too. So, if I had one that's going, I'd put some money into it,
but before I put a lot into it, I'd go look at those reviews.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 12/12/2014 2:12 AM, Danny D. wrote:
>
> Any debugging suggestions?
>

1) Start with the basics. Change the oil, make sure
the unit is clean and free of dust and debris.

2) Look for online forums. And read any paper work
you have with the machine. Might be able to get
the manual from the web site in pdf.

When my Mom's garage door opener didn't work right,
I found the manual Dad had tucked in behind. Sure
enough, that had the trouble shooting and helped me
to fix the problem.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 05:02:13 -0800:

> What was going on with the power to the house while this clicking
> was going on? Lights going on and off?

I was in the garage that whole time, and the fluorescent lights in
the garage were not flickering.

> I guess that answers the question about the lights, sounds like
> they were on the whole time.

What happened were three things:
a) Power flickered on and off and then off and on and then off.
b) Normally, by now, the generator would have kicked in, but it didn't.
c) So the house was dark (which normally never happens)
d) Opening the door, I could hear the neighbors' generators
e) Looking about, I could tell it was a power outage by the
pattern of which houses had generators & which didn't
f) Going outside, I fiddled with the generator (hitting buttons)
g) The generator kicked on and sounded good
h) The lights went on in the house (and stayed on)
i) But the control boxes in the garage were clicking
j) They clicked for five or ten minutes and then stopped clicking
k) The generator stayed on for hours (it's off now, so, PG&E must
have fixed it)

> Any possibility the utility power was intermittent, coming back
> sporadically? If what you were hearing was the main power relay's
> moving, I don't see how you could have clicking and uninterrupted
> lights.

The PG&E power "could" have been intermittent (how would I have known?).

> I concluded that I wouldn't buy one, wouldn't rely on one, and
> that it wasn't worth putting the money into the free one.

I swear by that thing! You have to remember that, here in California,
up in the hills, our power goes out five or six times a year.
Interestingly, we *thought* it was getting better, in that, during
the drought, the power stayed on for months before going out; but,
it has gone out thrice in as many months.

Sometimes we're out for days (the most I've seen is 3 days); but,
most of the time it's only for a half dozen hours. In this case,
the power came on during the night, as it's still dark outside,
but I see lights on the neighbors' houses who don't have generators
and I opened a window and I don't hear my generator.

Normally, I can hear mine (but nobody elses' since mine is loud);
and I can see which neighbors have lights and which don't (during
the night). But last night, I could hear the neighbor's generator,
because mine wasn't running.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:44:03 -0500:

> 1) Start with the basics. Change the oil, make sure
> the unit is clean and free of dust and debris.

I've never changed the oil, but I doubt that's the problem,
but it's a great idea nonetheless. I'll also take the
battery down to Autozone to have load tested.

It had 536.something hours on the clock when I snapped
that picture of the front panel in the night. I'll look
when it gets light to see how many hours it ran last
night.

> 2) Look for online forums. And read any paper work
> you have with the machine. Might be able to get
> the manual from the web site in pdf.

Googling for "Generac model 09067-9 series 8KW HSB"
I didn't find the manual, so, I'm calling them as we type:
http://www.generac.com/service-support 888-436-3722

[Stormin Mormon]

I think small engines want an oil change every
25 hours or 50, so it's likely over due. I like
Castrol GX, cause it's the one brand that quieted
the rod knock in a truck, I used to have.

Some engines have a low oil shut down DAMHIKT.
That's how I got my first generator, relative
ran one low oil. I'm trying not to let them know
that was the only thing wrong with it. I added
four ounces of oil, and it ran fine. Don't tell
em, please.

Best wishes on the manual. Hope they have good
customer service.

[Danny D.]

Danny D. wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 14:44:02 +0000:

> It had 536.something hours on the clock when I snapped
> that picture of the front panel in the night. I'll look
> when it gets light to see how many hours it ran last
> night.

It now has 540(point 0/10s) now, so, the power was out
for four hours last night.

I'm still on the line with Generac.
They'll send me a manual by snail mail & email.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 09:52:25 -0500:

> Some engines have a low oil shut down DAMHIKT.

That's a good point.
I never *added* oil either!

I'm still on the line with Generac support (they couldn't
find the model at first).

They're sending me "the manual", but I asked them whether it's
1. Owners Manual & Maintenance
2. Parts Manual
3. Wiring Diagram
4. Troubleshooting Guide
5. Service Manual
And, whether it contains the transfer switch information.

[mako...@yahoo.com]

can you describe the clicking in mor detail
click every second?
once a minute?
randomly spaced?
Mark

[Stormin Mormon]

I like our different approaches. You're techie,
and I'm nuts and bolts. Well, mostly bolts.

[Danny D.]

I just listened to the 13 second 24MB video that the iPad created.
It's a fast click. Loud and fast. Maybe 3 or 4 clicks a second.
Rapid, then skips a click or two, then rapid again.

I'm trying to upload to flickr, but it's timing out.
(need a good temporary no-registration video upload site)

Note: I'm not sure why a puny 13 second video is 25 MB.

[Danny D.]

Danny D. wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:19:01 +0000:

> I'm trying to upload to flickr, but it's timing out.
> (need a good temporary no-registration video upload site)
> Note: I'm not sure why a puny 13 second video is 25 MB.

Since Flickr kept timing out on the 25MB 13-second iPad MOV,
I converted it to a 500KB M4V using Handbrake on Linux.

I wasn't sure what format to convert it to, but that seems
to have uploaded to Flickr.

I usually "view source" to find the URL to post for you,
but this HTML source is different than for a photo, so,
let me know if this URL works for you:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/15382730574

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:18:51 -0500:

> I like our different approaches.

I like the advice.

Reading the manual, I see that the leading zero is what threw
off the customer support lady (Rachell).

The file is "9067-9.pdf" and it's called "Manual No. 98374",
titled "Generac II Emergency Power Systems Owner's Manual"
"Revision 0 (11/22/95)".

As you had accurately surmised, it has a low oil pressure
switch cutoff at 8-12psi and and a high-oil temperature
cutoff switch at 284 degrees F.

It's a 570cc engine of 19HP at 3,600RPM with a solid-state
ignition, and Champion R12YC plugs. The oil filter is a
Fram PH-3614, and it takes 1.5 US quarts of 10W30 motor
oil.

You were right that the oil should be changed every 50
hours, so, I have some 'splaining to do since I have never
changed it. Obviously that's my first task of the day, after
I pick up the filter.

[Smarty]

On 12/12/2014 2:12 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Danny,
There is a forum devoted to Generac service and attended regularly by
many Generac technicians. I am guessing you may have a leaking rubber
bellows connecting the air filter chamber to the carburetor, a common
problem, causing poor fuel/air ratio and rough starting and stalling, etc.

Good luck!
Smarty

See the website:

http://www.zillerelectric.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15

[Stormin Mormon]

we make a good team. Wish I lived closer to you,
love to visit some time. Anyhow, sounds like the
machine can use some "routine" (cough, cough)
maint. I know that my equipment doesn't get maint
on proper intervals. Sigh.

Anyhow, be interesting if this helps. can't hurt,
of course. I'd expect to find the oil drain plug
on the side, about half way back. Way down low.

I'm guessing you'll take pictures and post?

[trader_4]

On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:44:25 AM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
> Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:44:03 -0500:
>
> > 1) Start with the basics. Change the oil, make sure
> > the unit is clean and free of dust and debris.
>
> I've never changed the oil, but I doubt that's the problem,
> but it's a great idea nonetheless.

I would think the oil should be changed about once a year,
but I agree an oil change isn't the issue.

>I'll also take the
> battery down to Autozone to have load tested.

Or just replace it if it's 6+ years old. I think that's what
I would do with a standby generator, as just normal PM.
But again, since it starts and runs, that isn't the problem.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 12/12/2014 10:49 AM, Smarty wrote:
>
> Danny,
> There is a forum devoted to Generac service and attended regularly by
> many Generac technicians. I am guessing you may have a leaking rubber
> bellows connecting the air filter chamber to the carburetor, a common
> problem, causing poor fuel/air ratio and rough starting and stalling, etc.
>
> Good luck!
> Smarty
>
> See the website:
>
> http://www.zillerelectric.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15
>

Now, there's a nuts and bolts man. Much like the
bad carb gaskets I've seen over the years.

[Terry Coombs]

Get a Wix filter , they're the best in the business - Fram is crap . A
bunch of the guys on the Sportster email list cut a bunch of filters up and
analyzed the type/quantity/quality of the components . Wix came out on top ,
and I've never used anything else since . FWIW , NAPA Gold filters are made
by Wix .

--
Snag

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:51:42 -0500:

> I'm guessing you'll take pictures and post?

Yes, we'd make a good team (I was always on sports as a kid
and always a good team member).

As for the pictures, the clicking of the transfer switch
caught me offguard (i.e., sans camera), so I was only able
to get a 15 second video of the sound:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/15382730574/

I sent the video to Generac support, but they (predictably)
said they couldn't diagnose over email and offered to send
me to an authorized dealer.

Their manual is pretty bad, and must contain errors, as the
spark plug they suggest doesn't even exist:
Champion R12YC (there is no asterisk explanation either)
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7555/15819550120_5ef881a281_b.jpg

Same with the oil, as the SAE340 grade doesn't exist either.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7487/15387180663_807f552489_b.jpg

Similarly, what the heck is an "oil makeup tank"?
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7487/15387180663_807f552489_b.jpg

I suspect all three are mistakes - but - it's a bummer having to
guess (I'm guessing RC12YC, SAE30, and that there is no such
thing as an "oil makeup tank", which doesn't show on any of the
exploded diagrams).

[Danny D.]

Terry Coombs wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:40:24 -0600:

> Get a Wix filter , they're the best in the business - Fram is crap . A
> bunch of the guys on the Sportster email list cut a bunch of filters up and
> analyzed the type/quantity/quality of the components . Wix came out on top ,
> and I've never used anything else since . FWIW , NAPA Gold filters are made
> by Wix .

I'm sorry didn't see this until I came back from the store.

I bought the Bosch 3330 filter instead:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8583/15819774350_1d9dc07783_b.jpg

And I had to guess which spark plug to use, so I guessed that they
didn't mean R12YC but perhaps they had meant RC12YC?

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:10:22 -0800:

> I would think the oil should be changed about once a year,
> but I agree an oil change isn't the issue.

The manual says 50 hours in one place and every 100 hours
in another. The generator has over 500 hours, but, I didn't
put it all on (I don't remember how much I put on).

So, my plan is to give it a "tuneup", whatever that means to
a propane generator:

1. Battery tested at Autzone for voltage under load,
2. New spark plug (Champion RC12YC I think)
3. Oil change & oil filter
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8583/15819774350_1d9dc07783_b.jpg

[Terry Coombs]

Bosch are good too , I'd run one if Wix were unavailable . I'm not sure
about your spark plug , but i know my Harley runs an RN12YC . There are
charts online of what all the numbers and letters mean ...

--
Snag

[Danny D.]

Terry Coombs wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:57:34 -0600:

>> And I had to guess which spark plug to use, so I guessed that they
>> didn't mean R12YC but perhaps they had meant RC12YC?

> about your spark plug , but i know my Harley runs an RN12YC . There are
> charts online of what all the numbers and letters mean ...

Oh, we spent more than 45 minutes trying to find a RC12YC.
The auto parts guy looked in every cross reference he had.
We googled it on my iPad.
And we even called Generac from the store (which is what took
most of the 45 minutes).

Generac has no clue but they said it 'could' be a typo.
All we know is that the R12YC doesn't exist.

The one good thing that came of the multiple calls to Generac
support was that each person told us something different, which
allowed us to figure out that there is no such thing as the
"oil makeup tank" and that the "SAE340" was a typo.

We now have "revision 1" of the manual, which still says to use
the spark plug which doesn't exist though.

Anyway, I'll pull and compare spark plugs (not that this will
be an exact test but if it's way off, I should be able to see
that as long as it's not off internally).

[Zak W]

"Danny D." <dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote in news:m6f115$e8o$5@dont-
email.me:

Can you describe the "click" itself? Was it like metal tapping metal; or
more like a "thumping"?

[trader_4]

On Friday, December 12, 2014 4:43:45 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
> trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:10:22 -0800:
>
> > I would think the oil should be changed about once a year,
> > but I agree an oil change isn't the issue.
>
> The manual says 50 hours in one place and every 100 hours
> in another. The generator has over 500 hours, but, I didn't
> put it all on (I don't remember how much I put on).
>

100 hours sounds about right. When I said once a year, I was
thinking that few of these home generators are going to run
enough in a year to reach an hour based number.
It should probably be changed once
a year anyway, regardless of usage. It starts up once a week as
a test and runs for like 10 mins, right? Doing that, sitting
outdoors, probably gets condensation into the oil, so changing it
once a year or so is probably a good idea.

[trader_4]

On Friday, December 12, 2014 4:27:35 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
> Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:51:42 -0500:
>
> > I'm guessing you'll take pictures and post?
>
> Yes, we'd make a good team (I was always on sports as a kid
> and always a good team member).
>
> As for the pictures, the clicking of the transfer switch
> caught me offguard (i.e., sans camera), so I was only able
> to get a 15 second video of the sound:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/15382730574/
>
> I sent the video to Generac support, but they (predictably)
> said they couldn't diagnose over email and offered to send
> me to an authorized dealer.
>
> Their manual is pretty bad, and must contain errors, as the
> spark plug they suggest doesn't even exist:
> Champion R12YC (there is no asterisk explanation either)
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7555/15819550120_5ef881a281_b.jpg
>
> Same with the oil, as the SAE340 grade doesn't exist either.
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7487/15387180663_807f552489_b.jpg
>
> Similarly, what the heck is an "oil makeup tank"?
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7487/15387180663_807f552489_b.jpg
>

That would be an oil holding tank that is in addition to whatever oil
is in the engine crankcase. Some cars use that system, Harley's, etc.

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 03:56:58 -0800:

> It starts up once a week as
> a test and runs for like 10 mins, right?

Yes. Ostensibly that's to charge the battery.

[Danny D.]

Zak W wrote, on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:16:52 +0000:

> Can you describe the "click" itself? Was it like metal tapping metal; or
> more like a "thumping"?

Here is a video of the clicking sounds:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/15382730574/

Here's what is inside the transfer cases:

[Stormin Mormon]

On 12/12/2014 7:42 PM, Danny D. wrote:
>
> Generac has no clue but they said it 'could' be a typo.
> All we know is that the R12YC doesn't exist.
>

Oddly, I have an old Champion catalog. No
such plug that I could find. Wish I was
more help.

--

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:22:12 -0500:

> Oddly, I have an old Champion catalog. No
> such plug that I could find. Wish I was
> more help.

Thanks for checking that out.
I have the newer manual from Generac (rev 1 instead of rev 0),
which corrects two of the three errors - but still specifies
the non-existent spark plug.

I'm pretty sure that the plug designation is a typo, but,
when I pull the old one, I'll know for sure so I'll let you
know.

Thanks for looking it up for me.

[Stormin Mormon]

"Oh, that one? I threw away four
of them last week...."

I do have some old plugs. My guess, it's
fairly close to some thing that's for
sale near you.

[Smarty]

On 12/13/2014 9:22 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> On 12/12/2014 7:42 PM, Danny D. wrote:
>>
>> Generac has no clue but they said it 'could' be a typo.
>> All we know is that the R12YC doesn't exist.
>>
>
> Oddly, I have an old Champion catalog. No
> such plug that I could find. Wish I was
> more help.
>

Generac sells a service kit for each generator including spark plug, oil
filter, and air filter. Just buy it and save yourself (and everybody
else) a lot of confusion.

[Danny D.]

Smarty wrote, on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:09:46 -0500:

> Generac sells a service kit for each generator including spark plug, oil
> filter, and air filter. Just buy it and save yourself (and everybody
> else) a lot of confusion.

I didn't know about that, and, certainly Generac support didn't
volunteer that information, particularly when I asked about the oil
and the plug.

But, at this point, I think I'm fine:
a) The oil filter appears to be correct,
b) The spark plug will be compared to the old one
c) The oil is just plain old motor oil (SAE & API notwithstanding)
d) The air filter appears to be a serviceable filter (cleanable)

I'll snap pictures, hopefully later today, as it's not currently raining.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 09:22:12 -0500, Stormin Mormon
<cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/12/2014 7:42 PM, Danny D. wrote:
>>
>> Generac has no clue but they said it 'could' be a typo.
>> All we know is that the R12YC doesn't exist.
>>
>
>Oddly, I have an old Champion catalog. No
>such plug that I could find. Wish I was
>more help.

It will in lall likelyhood be an RJ12yc - or perhaps an RN12c
The R means resistor, the N is 14mm 3/4" long thread, while a J is
14mm 3/8 in long thread, both with 13/16" hex head. An N can be
replaced with a C or R, with 5/8, 3/4, or 5/8 inch hex.
So yes, an R12Yc plug DOES exist (or has in the past). It is a non
reisistor 14mmX3/4" thread projected nose copper core plug. with a 3/4
or 11/16" hex head. - which in MOST cases can be replaced with either
an N12yc or RN12yc plug assuming there is a big enough "plug well" to
get a 13/16" plug socket onto the plug.

[Fred McKenzie]

In article <m6f2fo$e8o$7...@dont-email.me>,

"Danny D." <dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The file is "9067-9.pdf" and it's called "Manual No. 98374",
> titled "Generac II Emergency Power Systems Owner's Manual"
> "Revision 0 (11/22/95)".

Danny D.-

I happen to have a pdf copy of that manual. the spark plug is
illustrated on page 24, item 52. According to the parts list on page
27, it is part number 72347, "D" Spark Plug.

Searching for 72347GS, it is apparently no longer available. I found
two sites that crossed it to part number 491055S. Sears PartsDirect
crosses that to RC12YC.

With regard to the oil change interval, many generators have a short
"break in" interval for the first oil change, then a longer interval
after that. Once you get it running, consider running it on fresh oil
for 24 hours under some load like a couple electric heaters. Then
change oil and observe a 100 hour interval after that.

I hope your clicking was just a reaction to low oil. If not, you may
also find help at <http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=90>.

Fred

[Smarty]

On 12/13/2014 11:17 AM, Danny D. wrote:
> Smarty wrote, on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:09:46 -0500:
>
>> Generac sells a service kit for each generator including spark plug, oil
>> filter, and air filter. Just buy it and save yourself (and everybody
>> else) a lot of confusion.
> I didn't know about that, and, certainly Generac support didn't
> volunteer that information, particularly when I asked about the oil
> and the plug.
>
> But, at this point, I think I'm fine:
> a) The oil filter appears to be correct,
> b) The spark plug will be compared to the old one
> c) The oil is just plain old motor oil (SAE & API notwithstanding)
> d) The air filter appears to be a serviceable filter (cleanable)

The Generac technicians on the forum I previously cited recommended
synthetic oil, and I therefore have been using Mobil 1 for annual oil
changes since I installed my Generac in 2007. Also I am not aware that
the air filter can be cleaned and re-used as you state above. Suggest
you check both of these items carefully.

[Smarty]

On 12/13/2014 11:17 AM, Danny D. wrote:

> Smarty wrote, on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:09:46 -0500:
>
>> Generac sells a service kit for each generator including spark plug, oil
>> filter, and air filter. Just buy it and save yourself (and everybody
>> else) a lot of confusion.
> I didn't know about that, and, certainly Generac support didn't
> volunteer that information, particularly when I asked about the oil
> and the plug.

Here is Generac's web pages where the maintenance kits I previously
referred to are sold.

Although the kits are individually priced at around $50, I bought 10 of
them for $260 online to avoid the annual hassle. The plugs come
pre-gapped, the air and oil filters are exact Generac parts, the kit
also contains a funnel and cleaning cloth for oil clean up, and they
even throw in a small spark plug wrench.

Do yourself a favor if you intend to do the proper annual maintenance
yourself and just buy a batch of these kits. It makes the whole process
much simpler.

http://www.generac.com/all-products/parts-accessories/home-backup

Hope this helps!
Smarty


>
>

[Danny D.]

Fred McKenzie wrote, on Sat, 13 Dec 2014 15:00:15 -0500:

> Searching for 72347GS, it is apparently no longer available. I found
> two sites that crossed it to part number 491055S. Sears PartsDirect
> crosses that to RC12YC.

Thanks for going the extra mile to help a fellow homeowner!

I wasn't able to get to it today due to a personal issue, but, hopefully
soon.

[Danny D.]

I replaced the oil and oil filter of the Generac today, and
much to my chagrin, I found out that the engine is a v-twin
which means it needs two sparkplugs!
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7475/15999887366_0d5119c4c1_b.jpg

Worse yet, I was totally unable to pull out the spark plug wire.
It's either bolted in, or extremely tightly on.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7538/15839615129_8f4571e38b_c.jpg

I was pulling with all my strength on the spark plug boots.
It has some spring mechanism, but I was pulling so hard, that
I was afraid I was going to break the wires.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8675/15403408714_4872312917_b.jpg

As an aside, some animal has chewed on the high-voltage cables.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7533/15839916557_8e95eab7a2_b.jpg

But, the big deal is that I can't get the spark plug cables off,
and I don't want to use super-human force, for obvious reasons.

There must be a trick of some sort ...

[Danny D.]

Terry Coombs wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:40:24 -0600:

> Get a Wix filter , they're the best in the business - Fram is crap .

Interestingly, the filter that was on there was Wix.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8570/15406030833_69a4e2fb07_b.jpg

I'm still confused why there are TWO oil filler caps, one of which
is seemingly on the head on top of one of the cylinders:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8681/15406031673_110ab1d788_b.jpg

It took me a while to realize there was an oil-drain hose, tucked
away *behind* the filter:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7544/16024976062_381057e677_b.jpg

The really bad news is that nowhere near 1.5 quarts came out:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7514/15406031083_6282feb6ba_c.jpg

So, from the start, the generator was very low on oil:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7514/15406031753_689fb6228e_b.jpg

Does anyone know why there are *two* oil filler caps?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8569/15406031533_ca105db40a_c.jpg

[Danny D.]

Smarty wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:49:27 -0500:

> I am guessing you may have a leaking rubber bellows connecting the air
> filter chamber to the carburetor, a common problem, causing poor
> fuel/air ratio and rough starting and stalling, etc.

I saw the air filter had old sound-deadening insulation in it:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7583/15839917967_5abf2b5dd7_c.jpg

I can see a badly chewed on set of high tension wires:
coil #1 https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7533/15839916557_8e95eab7a2_b.jpg
coil #2 https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7575/15406029463_d8401dcdf8_b.jpg

And, the spark plugs are probably shot, but I couldn't get them out:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7485/15403409544_58dabf8053_b.jpg

And, the oil was definitely very low:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7514/15406031753_689fb6228e_b.jpg

So, once I figure out the two enigmas, it should be back up and
running.

Enigma #1:
Why are there two oil fill holes?
Maybe there was truth to the second oil tank in the first
owners manual?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8681/15406031673_110ab1d788_b.jpg

Enigma #2:
Why can't I pull off the spark plug boots?
Maybe they are bolted on somehow? Can that be?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8675/15403408714_4872312917_b.jpg

[CRNG]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:22:10 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote in <m6lumi$p47$3...@dont-email.me>

>I can see a badly chewed on set of high tension wires:
>coil #1 https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7533/15839916557_8e95eab7a2_b.jpg
>coil #2 https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7575/15406029463_d8401dcdf8_b.jpg

That doesn't look good at all.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[Stormin Mormon]

1) Photos showed exposed wire to the low voltage
side of the ignition coil. That could explain a
lot of why it doesn't run properly.
2) Try rotate the spark plug boot left and right,
to free up the metal to metal connection. And use
spark plug grease on the reinstall.

The fins on the flywheel are for cooling air. Please
put the cover back on when you finish service.

[Stormin Mormon]

Was that all the oil you got? Surprised it had
not yet seized up and turned into a rock. I guess
a wise and caring friend of yours knew some how
that you needed to check oil?

No clue about the two oil caps.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 12/15/2014 1:22 AM, Danny D. wrote:
> Smarty wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:49:27 -0500:
>
>
> I can see a badly chewed on set of high tension wires:
> coil #1 https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7533/15839916557_8e95eab7a2_b.jpg
> coil #2 https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7575/15406029463_d8401dcdf8_b.jpg

CY: I saw bare copper low voltage wire, and some
bad insulation on the high voltage wire, on the
other one. The colored wire might be possible
to cut out the bare copper, and splice in some
newer wire. The black wire, I'd buy a roll of
good electrical tape, and wrap it.

>
> And, the spark plugs are probably shot, but I couldn't get them out:
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7485/15403409544_58dabf8053_b.jpg
>
> And, the oil was definitely very low:
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7514/15406031753_689fb6228e_b.jpg
>

CY: Less than a quart and a half, for sure.

> So, once I figure out the two enigmas, it should be back up and
> running.
>
> Enigma #1:
> Why are there two oil fill holes?
> Maybe there was truth to the second oil tank in the first
> owners manual?
> https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8681/15406031673_110ab1d788_b.jpg
>
> Enigma #2:
> Why can't I pull off the spark plug boots?
> Maybe they are bolted on somehow? Can that be?
> https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8675/15403408714_4872312917_b.jpg
>

CY: Most likely lack of maint. Twist left and
right repeatedly, and then pull again. use
spark plug grease inside the boots when
reassembling.

[trader_4]

On Monday, December 15, 2014 1:12:54 AM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
> Terry Coombs wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:40:24 -0600:
>
> > Get a Wix filter , they're the best in the business - Fram is crap .
>
> Interestingly, the filter that was on there was Wix.
> https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8570/15406030833_69a4e2fb07_b.jpg
>
> I'm still confused why there are TWO oil filler caps, one of which
> is seemingly on the head on top of one of the cylinders:
> https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8681/15406031673_110ab1d788_b.jpg
>

That may get back to the separate oil holding tank you mentioned.
You said the manual says it has one, but it actually doesn;t. But
are you sure? If the engine is designed to be used in applications
either with or without the extra tank, you could have one cap on the
engine, one cap on the tank or hoses leading to the tank, etc.
without, then having a cap on the engine

[trader_4]

I would be amazed that with that little oil, the oil pressure or
level cutout wouldn't have shut it down completely long ago. And IDK
how low you can go without screwing the engine, but I agree, I would
think if that's all the oil there was in there, you would think the
engine would be shot.

See my other post about his previously mentioning an external oil tank,
eg a dry sump kind of settup, that was in the manual. If that's actually
there, then maybe what he drained is just from the crankcase, there is
more in the tank? What he drained is clearly one oil drain, the
very obvious one that you'd go to, but could there be another? IDK.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:07:49 -0500:

> Was that all the oil you got? Surprised it had
> not yet seized up and turned into a rock. I guess
> a wise and caring friend of yours knew some how
> that you needed to check oil?

Thanks for that suggestion. Much appreciated.

When that little dribble came out, I was embarrassed to snap
the picture. I actually considered not posting it. I'm shocked
that I allowed the oil level to be *below* the dipstick!

I'm surprised the thing ran at all (since it has a low oil
pressure switch). I realize pressure does not equal volume
(but eventually lack of volume equals lack of pressure).

I suspect that's why it was shutting off in the beginning,
until it built up enough oil pressure. But I'm not sure.

Nonetheless, not only was the oil extremely low, but, it
came out muddy. Mea culpa. <hides head in shame>

> No clue about the two oil caps.

I'm waiting on the Generac support line to ask them.
1-888-436-3722x2(consumer)x2(existing)x2(permanent)x3(all other)...wait...

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:20:38 -0800:

> See my other post about his previously mentioning an external oil tank,
> eg a dry sump kind of settup, that was in the manual. If that's actually
> there, then maybe what he drained is just from the crankcase, there is
> more in the tank? What he drained is clearly one oil drain, the
> very obvious one that you'd go to, but could there be another? IDK.

You are correct in the doubt of whether there is only 1 oil tank
or two oil tanks.

Clearly, there are two oil-filler caps, one of which has a dipstick,
while the other is on top of a cylinder head (which is a weird spot).

Yet, that second (blue) oil filler cap clearly has an oil-can symbol
on it, as does the (black) oil filler cap next to the drain.

OK. I just got off the line with Mitch at Generac. There is only
one oil tank, he says. The blue oil filler cap is for when the
engine is mounted 90 degrees to where mine is mounted, so, he
says, I should use only the black cap.

He says there may be a special tool needed to remove the spark
plug cap, so, he's going to research that for me and get back
to me.

You'd think the manual would mention these two things...

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:15:51 -0800:

> That may get back to the separate oil holding tank you mentioned.
> You said the manual says it has one, but it actually doesn;t. But
> are you sure? If the engine is designed to be used in applications
> either with or without the extra tank, you could have one cap on the
> engine, one cap on the tank or hoses leading to the tank, etc.
> without, then having a cap on the engine

I'm confused, because:
a) The rev 0 manual said there were two oil tanks of different volume,
b) The rev 1 manual only mentions one tank
c) I have two oil-filler caps
d) Yet, the blue one is vertical (so it would be hard to fill).

Generac support (Mitch) asked someone for me, who told him to tell
me that the second (blue) one is for when the generator is mounted
sideways, and for me to use just the first (black) one.

As for the spark plug boot, Mitch says he'll research that further
as a special tool may be needed. It must have some kind of spring
mechanism because it pulled back hard when I tried to pull it off.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:03:50 -0500:

> 1) Photos showed exposed wire to the low voltage
> side of the ignition coil. That could explain a
> lot of why it doesn't run properly.

Yeah. Those wires look chewed on.

Maybe I need to stick some rat poison in there in
addition to putting the cover on.

BTW, the exposed fins are only because I had removed
the cover to them; which I will certainly put back on.

Thanks for noticing that detail!

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:11:13 -0500:

> The colored wire might be possible
> to cut out the bare copper, and splice in some
> newer wire. The black wire, I'd buy a roll of
> good electrical tape, and wrap it.

It's raining now (woo hoo!) but when the rain stops, I will wrap
the blue bare wire with electrical tape (and maybe reinforce it
with some bare copper wire) and wrap up the high-voltage wire
also.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[Smarty]

On 12/15/2014 1:04 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Danny,

I have replied to your prior inquiries in 3 separate posts, and you have
not acknowledged or replied to 2 of them. This will be my final attempt
to help you, barring any acknowledgement or thanks.

As I stated earlier, the Ziller forum I linked in one of my prior
replies to you is the authoritative place for Generac technicians and
advanced home users to assemble and discuss Generac repairs and issues.
I have been using it for nearly 8 years with great success as have many
others.

Rather than asking questions on this home repair forum such as why there
are two oil holes, and other very specific issues which people here are
very unlikely to know. why not go to the Ziller forum and ask people who
are working on these units every day.

If you had ordered or even looked up a description of the Generac
maintenance kit such as the one I previously linked you, then you would
not have had a huge surprise to discover that your generator had 2
cylinders and 2 spark plugs! This stuff is not that hard to find and
read about.

Use the resources Generac and Ziller provide and save yourself a lot of
wasted words, time, and effort.






>

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:12:30 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Terry Coombs wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:40:24 -0600:
>
>> Get a Wix filter , they're the best in the business - Fram is crap .

Generally I agree - but recently I had a good look at the Fram Ultra
Synthetic (Gold) oil filter last week and it appears to be built as
well as any Wix or other mid-line to premium brand filter. It has a
silicone drainback valve, metal end caps, premium dual layer
filtration media, and metal screen support for thefiltration media to
maintain flod spacing. I really could not think of many ways to make
it a better filter.

The silver Tough-Guard is a cheap filter - bsing sold at a more
premium pricepoint than the also cheap Orange ultra-guard filter

Now, to be sure, this is NOT a cheap (or even inexpensive) filter -
Next spring when I change the oil on the Taurus again I'll try to
remember to open it up and get some pictures.

[Danny D.]

Smarty wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 10:59:51 -0500:

> Rather than asking questions on this home repair forum such as why there
> are two oil holes, and other very specific issues which people here are
> very unlikely to know. why not go to the Ziller forum and ask people who
> are working on these units every day.

Hi Smarty,
I apologize for not responding to all your posts, and I did read the
suggestion to go to a generac-specific forum. I had actually gone there
and realized I had to create an account, login, etc, and decided to
call Generac instead (which is well documented).

In addition, I updated this thread, since that's where the question
started. It's usually not a good idea to have multiple threads in
multiple places, so I had opted to remain in this thread and not
open an ancillary thread.

I realize you feel that is folly, and I do understand your point,
but I have had lousy experiences with the quality of results from
many web-based forums, not the least of which is the mechanical
problem of remembering the various logins and passwords unique to
each web based forum - none of which is needed for Usenet posts.

I believe I am moving in the right direction, and I do appreciate
your advice and information. While I fault the manual for not explicitly
stating there are two spark plugs, the fact is that the exploded diagram
shows a v-twin engine, which, even though there are no spark plugs
shown in the exploded diagram, would have intimated two plugs.

Anyway, I have the second plug, and I am just waiting word from
Generac Support (Mitch) on how to properly remove the boots.

[CRNG]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:20:42 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote in <m6ncaa$9da$1...@dont-email.me>

>but I have had lousy experiences with the quality of results from
>many web-based forums, not the least of which is the mechanical
>problem of remembering the various logins and passwords unique to
>each web based forum - none of which is needed for Usenet posts.

+1 on that

[Stormin Mormon]

Well, thanks for sharing. I had a moment or two like
that, over the years. I hope that runs properly for
you with repairs, spark plugs, etc.

--

[Stormin Mormon]

I'd done some small engine work, and
some things stay in memory. The rat
poison sounds proper.


--

[Stormin Mormon]

The blue wire, if it were mine. I'd cut out the bare
part. use wire, crimps, and some electric tape to
spilce what's chewed. But, that's me.

--

[trader_4]

I doubt it. Some of them the rubber boot just grips very tight.

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:05:21 -0800:

> I doubt it. Some of them the rubber boot just grips very tight.

That's a fair enough assumption.

I haven't heard back from Mitch, at Generac, so, in the morning,
I'll give another call.

It sure *felt* like there was a spring on that boot, although
it would have to be a very strong one to give an inch, and then
snap back like that boot did.

It was *not* stuck solid - it moved a good half inch to an inch
and snapped back.

Weird.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 18:42:22 -0500:

> I'd done some small engine work, and
> some things stay in memory. The rat
> poison sounds proper.

The main problem with *outdoor* rat poison is that the animal
dies, and some poor unsuspecting scavenger eats it and dies
also.

So, I have to be careful.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 18:43:28 -0500:

> The blue wire, if it were mine. I'd cut out the bare
> part. use wire, crimps, and some electric tape to
> spilce what's chewed. But, that's me.

That's a good idea.

First thing I will do though, is get the tuneup part done,
and then I'll see what I can do about the wire. It is odd
that not only is the insulation totally gone, but the wire
looks like it was manipulated since the strands are separated
and many are broken.

But, that's not a moving part.

So, I suspect animal damage; but I don't know, for sure.

[CRNG]

On Tue, 16 Dec 2014 07:05:40 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote in <m6olk3$t3h$2...@dont-email.me>

How about just using a mouse trap?

[Smarty]

Danny,

I am delighted that you are converging on a solution, and that help has
been available. It is true that a login is required to participate in
Ziller's forum, but the benefits of talking with many experienced
Generac trained people who are fixing these units on a daily basis
should not be underestimated. They have solved a tough problem I was
having (and I have 2 engineering degrees and 40+ years of repair
experience!) so I just wanted you to get the best and most direct
assistance.

I also urge you to buy the Generac brand maintenance kits going forward.
Everything you need for annual maintenance is there, and they are not
outrageously priced. Once you make the annual maintenance simple you
will be less likely to put it off in the future.

Best of luck Danny and hope I have provided some useful inputs here.

Smarty

[Smarty]

On 12/15/2014 5:28 PM, CRNG wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:20:42 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
> <dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote in <m6ncaa$9da$1...@dont-email.me>
>
>> but I have had lousy experiences with the quality of results from
>> many web-based forums, not the least of which is the mechanical
>> problem of remembering the various logins and passwords unique to
>> each web based forum - none of which is needed for Usenet posts.
> +1 on that

-1 as far as I am concerned!

There are many product-specific forums on the Internet which have very
advanced users as well as product designers which are vastly better at
solving product-specific issues compared to a home repair forum. I
consider them a great asset and hardly consider a login as a good excuse
for not making use of these resources.

[Danny D.]

CRNG wrote, on Tue, 16 Dec 2014 07:40:18 -0600:

> How about just using a mouse trap?

Might work, as long as the vibrations don't set it off.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Get an automatic e-trap Shocks the little beggars to death and hols
up to 20 carcasses???

[trader_4]

+1

When you get to something as specific as a certain model standy generator,
if there is a forum with people with experience, far more likely you're
going to find more useful, pertinent information there and quickly too.
That's where I would go.

[Stormin Mormon]

I doubt that a dead rat has enough poison
in it to kill the next larger animal.

[Stormin Mormon]

With that much exposed copper, I'm guessing
that cylinder is weak, or not firing. Please
include the wire in your tune up done.

[trader_4]

On Monday, December 15, 2014 1:22:34 AM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
> Smarty wrote, on Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:49:27 -0500:
>
> > I am guessing you may have a leaking rubber bellows connecting the air
> > filter chamber to the carburetor, a common problem, causing poor
> > fuel/air ratio and rough starting and stalling, etc.
>
> I saw the air filter had old sound-deadening insulation in it:
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7583/15839917967_5abf2b5dd7_c.jpg
>
> I can see a badly chewed on set of high tension wires:
> coil #1 https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7533/15839916557_8e95eab7a2_b.jpg
> coil #2 https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7575/15406029463_d8401dcdf8_b.jpg
>

Just for the record, only one of them is on the high voltage side,
the one that isn't too bad. The other one, blue, is on the primary side.



> And, the spark plugs are probably shot, but I couldn't get them out:
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7485/15403409544_58dabf8053_b.jpg
>
> And, the oil was definitely very low:
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7514/15406031753_689fb6228e_b.jpg
>
> So, once I figure out the two enigmas, it should be back up and
> running.
>
> Enigma #1:
> Why are there two oil fill holes?
> Maybe there was truth to the second oil tank in the first
> owners manual?
> https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8681/15406031673_110ab1d788_b.jpg
>
> Enigma #2:
> Why can't I pull off the spark plug boots?
> Maybe they are bolted on somehow? Can that be?
> https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8675/15403408714_4872312917_b.jpg

They aren't bolted on. It's a conventional spark plug, with nothing
to bolt to.

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:17:57 -0800:

> They aren't bolted on. It's a conventional spark plug,
> with nothing to bolt to.

UPDATE:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7518/15858099409_1d5313e933_b.jpg

Unfortunately, for me, in the middle of the rainy night, the
power went out again (second time in as many days), with the
8KW generator still lying fallow, no battery, no oil, and all
the covers off and electrical breakers off.

Sticking my head outside on the balcony, I could hear all the
neighbors' generators roaring in the rainy night, so, I knew
it wasn't just me, so, I rolled over, and groaned, and went
back to sleep.

At around 5 in the morning, my 10-year old grandson wanted to
get on the net so I rolled out of my nice warm bed, grabbed
a flashlight, and went out with him to put it back together
in the dark misty air (nice sky though).

It was hard to see, but, we then hit upon the idea of using
the car's headlight, so, with better illumination, we soon
had her running again (still on the old plugs) before sunlight.

My grandson is probably too young for such things, as he was
very uncomfortable in the dark, cold, and rain, and he worried
far too much that we'd get electrocuted (his mom always tells
him that I break far more than I fix, heh heh ...).

BTW, at what age do you start having children work with you
on your "real" home repair projects? Is 10 still too young?

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:17:57 -0800:

> It's a conventional spark plug, with nothing to bolt to.

I picked these up at Kragen/O'Reilly this morning to pull
the plugs off.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7475/16042204641_6480411cde_b.jpg

If the plugs do just pull straight out, this will give me
the leverage, minimizing the risk to the "wire" from the
tremendous force that is needed.

[Danny D.]

CRNG wrote, on Mon, 15 Dec 2014 04:17:46 -0600:

> That doesn't look good at all.

I did have the battery checked:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7543/16044152565_5e7ae3c7de_c.jpg

It's from 2010 & it has a slight bulge (probably froze at some point?).

The parts guy instantly pronounced it dead on sight, but, I had charged
it up the night before on a 6-amp charger and it seemed to be taking
2 amps without issue and holding a charge under the open-circuit
no-load test of a voltmeter.

I had the Kragen/O'Reilly guy test it under load on his battery tester,
which took about 10 minutes, and the report came back as "Good", but
that the battery was on its last "quarter of life".

Given that the battery is 4 years old, I'm sure it *is* on its last
quarter but I asked if they input the date, and they said no, so,
the machine must be evaluating the dynamics of the battery under load.

It has an easy life though. It just sits there and starts the generator
once a week, and gets charged for 20 minutes to repay it for its
effort.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 08:46:35 -0500:

> I doubt that a dead rat has enough poison
> in it to kill the next larger animal.

I picked up this little guy inside the garage a few days ago:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7488/15856870990_5cc3ca8baf_b.jpg

I put gloves on, and picked him up.
He was too sick to run away.

Dunno if he ate any of the rat poison inside the drawers in
the garage, or not.

I didn't have the heart to kill him outright, so, I put him
inside a hollow log outside. I checked today, and he was gone.

[Stormin Mormon]

People mature at different ages, you poopy
head and some never grow up, toilet paper
nose. (I'm over 50, for example.)

Most tens can observe, simple tasks, and
all. I think you did good to put him into
the action. He will be FAR better off in
life if he can turn screws, replace spark
plugs, fill oil, check dip stick, and so
on. Wish more grand parents brought the
kids into reality.

At 5 AM, tell your grand son to get his
buns back to bed and don't come out till
8 AM. Next time he wakes you at 5 AM, he
will be shoveling to find the clean out
trap in the back yard.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:19:34 -0500:

> Next time he wakes you at 5 AM, he
> will be shoveling to find the clean out
> trap in the back yard.

:)

He gets up early. Goes to bed early too. Watches computers all day.
Aspergers. Cute kid.

If only his mom didn't tell him all the time his grandad breaks
everything he fixes. :)

[Stormin Mormon]

I've got mild to moderate aspergers. I relate
to people through work. You can see me on my
Amazon dot com profile. And then you can send
his pic, and we'll decide if he's old enough to
pull spark plugs.

[Ralph Mowery]

"Danny D." <dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:m6sh0c$ciq$3...@dont-email.me...

> The parts guy instantly pronounced it dead on sight, but, I had charged
> it up the night before on a 6-amp charger and it seemed to be taking
> 2 amps without issue and holding a charge under the open-circuit
> no-load test of a voltmeter.
>
>

Unless a battery has an internal short almost all batteries will show full
voltage without a load. The open circuit voltage tells almost nothing
unless the battery is totally bad or dead.
.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[trader_4]

It's being charged/maintained 24/7 by the generator controller using
AC line power. It doesn't need the generator running to charge it.
Four years old, on the last quarter of it's life per the load test,
it's already been taken out, critical need in a power outage, seems like
an easy decision to me.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

After the damage the cute little buggers did around here the last
couple of years I'd have dispatched him.
$1500 damage under the hood of my wife's car in one shot. And that's
just for starters.
The squirrels are even worse.

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 11:58:44 -0800:

> It's being charged/maintained 24/7 by the generator controller using
> AC line power. It doesn't need the generator running to charge it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I think the battery is *only* charged
by the generator (not by line voltage).

I don't see a ~120V to ~14V inverter anywhere.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7518/15858099409_1d5313e933_b.jpg

[Danny D.]

Ralph Mowery wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:17:02 -0500:

> Unless a battery has an internal short almost all batteries will show full
> voltage without a load. The open circuit voltage tells almost nothing
> unless the battery is totally bad or dead.

I agree that, unless one or more cells are shorted, or if the battery
will no longer take any charge whatsoever, an open circuit no-load voltage
test with a DMM won't tell you much.

That is exactly why I brought it to them, to test under load for
at least 10 or 15 minutes.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7543/16044152565_5e7ae3c7de_c.jpg

It tested GOOD. They would have failed it if it tested bad, as they
printed a copy of the test report, so, it clearly was in the lower
range of good.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:46:33 -0500:

> we'll decide if he's old enough to pull spark plugs.

Speaking of spark plugs, I finally got the boots off.
The originals, which were in great shape, are Champion
RC12YC, so I bought the correct spark plugs after all
(assuming the old plugs are the correct size).
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7534/15861874800_19b9347cb2_b.jpg

It wasn't the rubber that was holding it on, but it was
the rubber which was acting like a spring when I was
pulling very hard and then letting go. Unfortunately the
spark plug removal tool was useless because it wasn't
bent right and the ends are far too thick to be useful:
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7481/16023377816_7595e8cac9_b.jpg

I think it was only the metal clip that was holding on to
the spark plug like you can't believe. It was as clean as
new inside, so, there was no corrosion visible anywhere.

So that it's easier, next time, to remove them. I spurted
a dollop of electrical dialectric grease into the boot,
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7517/15863106489_fe619b5404_b.jpg

I also lightly covered the spark plug threads with gray
anti-seize, and carefully replaced the spark plug, knowing
that anti-seize is often not recommended and understanding
why (having read the cautionary reports of mis-torque & misfire).

I then disconnected the generator's breakers to the house,
and switched the generator to "Manual", and it started up
smoothly and quite nicely, purring like a kitten. Much
better than before.

That felt good!

Now all I have left to do is fix the damaged wires.

[Danny D.]

Danny D. wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 18:02:44 +0000:

> If the plugs do just pull straight out, this will give me
> the leverage, minimizing the risk to the "wire" from the
> tremendous force that is needed.

BTW, the plugs were surprisingly in great shape.
https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7534/15861874800_19b9347cb2_b.jpg

What matters to a plug, first and foremost, is a sharp edge,
which concentrates lines of force. The central electrode
was still (almost) as sharp as new.

What matters next is the gap, which was still around 30
thousandths of an inch.

The central insulator was carbon'd up, which is to be
expected, and not at all greasy or damaged.

Overall, there was no reason to replace the plugs, but,
I replaced them anyway since I already had them in hand.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 18, 2014 6:17:31 AM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:
> trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 17 Dec 2014 11:58:44 -0800:
>
> > It's being charged/maintained 24/7 by the generator controller using
> > AC line power. It doesn't need the generator running to charge it.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I think the battery is *only* charged
> by the generator (not by line voltage).

To only charge it with the battery would be a bad design. It's
typically charged by both AC and the generator, if the generator is
running.

>
> I don't see a ~120V to ~14V inverter anywhere.
> https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7518/15858099409_1d5313e933_b.jpg

As I said before, it's part of the control electronics. If you're
that interested, go find a schematic or read the repair/operation
manual.

[trader_4]

I'd say it tested bad. They told you based on the load test that
it was on the last 25% of it's life, which means it has reduced
capacity and they are *guessing* that's about how much life it has
left. You also know it's 4 years old. But it's your generator, house
and battery.

[Stormin Mormon]

I noted the picture of the spark plugs, old and
new. If the old ones were the correct, then the
new ones are a great match. Some times when they
won't release, twisting the spark plug boot will
help break them free. I think the "never sieze"
on the threads is excellent idea. I always grease
or neversieze mine on lawn mowers, etc.

Runs better is encouraging. I'm pleased for you.
And maybe your grand son will learn that Gramps
does fix things, and he can enjoy his 5 AM video.

[Zak W]

"Danny D." <dannyd...@gmail.com> wrote in news:m6uesa$c5n$1@dont-
email.me:

> Now all I have left to do is fix the damaged wires.
>

Piece of cake. It should only take you a week, 200 posts and 50 photos.

You are so entertaining.

Let us know how it goes.

ZW

[Stormin Mormon]

Zakky would also like pictures of your wife
and grand son in swim suits.

Me, I'd like pictures of the blue wire when
repaired. I'm a nerd.

[trader_4]

Given that you ran it with virtually no oil and what was in there
was probably molasses, I'd do another oil change after running it
for an hour or so.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 12/18/2014 9:01 AM, trader_4 wrote:
> Given that you ran it with virtually no oil and what was in there
> was probably molasses, I'd do another oil change after running it
> for an hour or so.
>

If nothing else, pull the dipstick and see
what the oil looks like.

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Thu, 18 Dec 2014 04:29:58 -0800:

> As I said before, it's part of the control electronics. If you're
> that interested, go find a schematic or read the repair/operation
> manual.

I have a schematic but I didn't read it as I'm pretty sure, just
by talking to Generac, that it's charged by the generator only.
But, I could be wrong - but I'm not that interested as the system
is working just fine and all I need to do is fix the one frayed
wire and I'm done.

BTW, I mistakenly said "inverter" in the previous post, when I
had meant "power supply" (since it's AC to DC, and not DC to AC).

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Thu, 18 Dec 2014 04:33:22 -0800:

> I'd say it tested bad. They told you based on the load test that
> it was on the last 25% of it's life, which means it has reduced
> capacity and they are *guessing* that's about how much life it has
> left. You also know it's 4 years old. But it's your generator, house
> and battery.

Fair enough.

If it were a critical application, I'd worry more. I can live without
power when it goes out (like very many people do). If I "really" want
to start the generator, I can "jump it" from my car.

So, it's not a mission critical situation if the battery doesn't
start the generator the next time the power goes out.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Thu, 18 Dec 2014 08:30:05 -0500:

> Some times when they won't release, twisting the
> spark plug boot will help break them free.

Rest assured I twisted and twisted. You can't get even
180 degrees though, due to the very short high-tension
wire, so, it's a situation where you're limited.

Given that the metal-to-metal connection is circular,
and that both metals are nearly pristine showing no
signs of corrosion whatsoever, I think it was just
stuck on tightly, metal to metal.

> I think the "never sieze" on the threads is excellent
> idea. I always grease or neversieze mine on lawn mowers,
> etc.

There are two schools of thought on the never seize.
One school of thought is that it prevents corrosion (by
being the sacrificial anode), while the other school of
thought is that careless people will overtorque and even
more careless people will end up shorting out the electrode
due to the excess of never seize squeezing into the cylinder
itself.

Knowing all that, I'm careful when I use it.

[Danny D.]

Zak W wrote, on Thu, 18 Dec 2014 13:36:03 +0000:

> Piece of cake.
> It should only take you a week, 200 posts and 50 photos.

:)

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Thu, 18 Dec 2014 06:01:42 -0800:

> Given that you ran it with virtually no oil and what was in there
> was probably molasses, I'd do another oil change after running it
> for an hour or so.

I was thinking about that.
The oil I changed, what little was left, was like mud.

I put in Mobile 1, but it's only a quart and a half, so, it's not
a bad idea to run another change in an hour or two of service.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I generally put on just enough to colour the threads on one side.

[Danny D.]

clare wrote, on Thu, 18 Dec 2014 17:03:27 -0500:

> I generally put on just enough to colour the threads on one side.

That's probably just about right.