three Romex sets in ceiling box

[Bill H.]

I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/three-romex-sets-in-ceiling-box-1198964-.htm

[Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC]

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
> I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
> are running out of ceiling box.  I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
> I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
> additional lights in other basement room.
> HELP PLEASE!
>

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?

[trader_4]

Assuming you want the new ones to operate off the same switch, then you
wire them in parallel with the existing light, connecting black to black,
white to white, bare ground wire to bare ground wire. Where you connect
into the exisiting wiring depends on where the new ones are going and
how the existing has been run. Most times you'd connect at the existing
box for the light fixture that's there.

Next issue is how many wires are already in that box and how many it's
allowed to have per code. Typically they accommodate 6 to 10, there
are wire fill tables that show how many wires are allowed for the common
box sizes. You have three romex going in already, if they are each two
conductors, then that's 3x2 conductors + 1 ground =7. If you add another romex to
go to the first new light, that would make it 9. So that box is
supposed to accommodate at least nine 14g wires, assuming it is 14g.
Find the max count in the tables for your box, as long as it's 9 or
more, you're OK. Romex goes into old box, run over to first new box,
daisy chain to next one. Buy old work boxes for the new spots, they
are made to install into existing ceilings.

[gfre...@aol.com]

The typical 4" octagon box used for ceiling lights is 1 1/2" deep and
is full with 7 conductors. (3 14g Romex)
If by remote chance they used a 2 1/8" deep box, it holds 10 14g.
conductors.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Box%20fill%20table.jpg

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 05:44:02 +0000, Bill H.
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:

>I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
>are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
>I need to know HOW to add these.
>Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
>additional lights in other basement room.
>HELP PLEASE!

Hire a "sparky" to have it tone properly and safely. Pretty difficult
to see through the ethernet exactly what setup you have.

[Clare Snyder]

No such thing as 2 phase

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <o32bnep63veo83ph1...@4ax.com>,
cl...@snyder.on.ca says...

>
> >Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
> No such thing as 2 phase
>
>

There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.



Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century polyphase
alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits
were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of a cycle, 90°.
Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently,
three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter
conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and
field assemblies, with windings physically offset to provide two-phase
power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the
largest generators in the world at that time and were two-phase
machines. Three-phase systems eventually replaced the original two-phase
power systems for power transmission and utilization. There remain few
two-phase distribution systems, with examples in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; many buildings in Center City are permanently wired for
two-phase[2] and Hartford, Connecticut.[3]

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Phil Kangas]

"Ralph Mowery" < says...

Thanks for explaining this, Ralph. ;>)

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 19:12:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
<rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>In article <o32bnep63veo83ph1...@4ax.com>,
>cl...@snyder.on.ca says...
>>
>> >Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
>> No such thing as 2 phase
>>
>>
>
>There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
>called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
>I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.
>
>

They were 25 Hz too. Wasn't aware there were any"shaker" transformers
still left in use. Noisy as heck - particularly the old Niagara 25hz
stuff. Transformers heated up from the friction of the laminations
rubbing against each other if they were not oil filled.

>
>Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century polyphase
>alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits
>were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of a cycle, 90°.
>Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently,
>three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter
>conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and
>field assemblies, with windings physically offset to provide two-phase
>power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the
>largest generators in the world at that time and were two-phase
>machines. Three-phase systems eventually replaced the original two-phase
>power systems for power transmission and utilization. There remain few
>two-phase distribution systems, with examples in Philadelphia,
>Pennsylvania; many buildings in Center City are permanently wired for
>two-phase[2] and Hartford, Connecticut.[3]
>

No real reason the
permanently wired" 2 phase buildings cannot be connected to
"split phase" 120/240 supply. Be a bugger sourcing motors - things
like AC unis, driers, etc for an EXTREMELY limitted market.

[trader_4]

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <o32bnep63veo83ph1...@4ax.com>,
> cl...@snyder.on.ca says...
> >
> > >Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
> > No such thing as 2 phase
> >
> >
>
> There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
> called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
> I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>
>If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

He knew you would bite.

[Scott Lurndal]

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees. Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart. That phase is split
using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.

[trader_4]

Wrong again, I ignored it. I ignored it after Clare took the bait.
It was only after Ralph made his detailed post that I replied.

[trader_4]

The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
hots.

Most AC is distributed as three-phase
> power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
> the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
> 21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
> two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
> distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two. I assume
the other side is tied to a primary neutral.

That phase is split
> using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.

No argument there. The issue is what you then have, what it looks like,
what it is, how you describe it.
Go through the simple exercise with questions I posed for Ralph and try to
explain the obvious holes. When you treat 180 as just another phase
difference, a special case if you will where the phases are directly
opposite, you can answer all those questions easily. If you claim
otherwise, then you wind up wandering in the wilderness. Which is why
they won't answer it, step by step.

[Scott Lurndal]

trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> writes:
>On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>> >This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
>> >something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
>> >240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
>> >but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
>> >have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.
>>
>> Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees.
>
>The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
>out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
>hots.

Not so. The 240v service to the house (from the pole pig if you have
one) is one phase of the three phase distribution.

The pole pig takes the 21KVAC (for example) and transforms it to 240VAC.

The grounded conductor starts at the dist transformer, pole pig or service
entrance (a grounding rod (or collection thereof)).

>
> Most AC is distributed as three-phase
>> power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
>> the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
>> 21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
>> two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
>> distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.
>
>I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
>voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.

That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
dozen or so homes. All underground from the nearest substation to
the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
service entrance.

There's no need to distribute the grounded conductor (AKA neutral),
by definition.

Aerial installations may include the grounded conductor for safety
reasons or to help support the cable(that's why there are three wires twisted to most standard
pole-pig based service entrances), but it will be grounded again at your service entrance anyway.

You've certainly noticed that there are two terminals on the pole
pig each for the primary and secondary - that's what provides you
with 240v; the grounded conductor isn't passed through the transformer
(but it may ground the pole pig can if it's metallic).

[trader_4]

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 2:33:17 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> writes:
> >On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> >> >This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
> >> >something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
> >> >240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
> >> >but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
> >> >have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.
> >>
> >> Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees.
> >
> >The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
> >out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
> >hots.
>
> Not so. The 240v service to the house (from the pole pig if you have
> one) is one phase of the three phase distribution.

That does not change the fact that it is in fact two 120V sine wave
voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other. That
is what you get from a center-tapped transformer. That is exactly what
it looks like and what it is. Two voltage sources:

120 Sine(wt)
120 Sine(wt + 180)

>
> The pole pig takes the 21KVAC (for example) and transforms it to 240VAC.
>
> The grounded conductor starts at the dist transformer, pole pig or service
> entrance (a grounding rod (or collection thereof)).
>
>
> >
> > Most AC is distributed as three-phase
> >> power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
> >> the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
> >> 21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
> >> two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
> >> distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.
> >
> >I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
> >voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.
>
> That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
> current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
> dozen or so homes.

It's very typical here, transformer on a pole, connected to one of
the three primaries.

Here is an example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_transformer

All underground from the nearest substation to
> the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
> service entrance.
>
> There's no need to distribute the grounded conductor (AKA neutral),
> by definition.

IDK what you mean by "distribute". There is a neutral from the transformer
to the customers and with transformers like that pictured, there is a
neutral on the primary side also.

>
> Aerial installations may include the grounded conductor for safety
> reasons or to help support the cable(that's why there are three wires twisted to most standard
> pole-pig based service entrances), but it will be grounded again at your service entrance anyway.
>
> You've certainly noticed that there are two terminals on the pole
> pig each for the primary and secondary

Obviously not on all transformers, not on most pole transformers here.
Here are some more:

https://www.featurepics.com/StockImage/20080630/electrical-transformer-stock-image-786145.jpg

https://cdn8.dissolve.com/p/D869_53_406/D869_53_406_1200.jpg

http://www.bristolwatch.com/ele/img/pole_xformer.jpg



All of which is irrelevant, of course to what you have coming in on
the house 240/120 service. Why don't you answer the simple questions
I posed in the example of Ralph's two phase service?

[Dean Hoffman]

We have just two wires from the power company on the poles for
single phase power in my area.
It looks something like this:
<https://www.hvacrschool.com/why-is-240v-called-single-phase/?print=print>

I guess the power company's hot line is actually 13,000 volts
plus a bit .

[trader_4]

And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral. I'll have to
look more around here when out, see if I also see some
transformers connected across two primaries. There are pictures of that,
which Scott was describing, online.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <a0894ab9-cf26-4758...@googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net says...

>
> All of which is irrelevant, of course to what you have coming in on
> the house 240/120 service. Why don't you answer the simple questions
> I posed in the example of Ralph's two phase service?
>
>
>
>

I should have stated that was not my opinion, but a copy and paste from
Wikipeaia.

I don't intend to get into a discussion over this, Just wanted to point
out that by definition there is/was 2 phase in a few parts of the US.
It does not matter what anyone says, there is a certain definition for 2
phase.

Just like the bianary number system there are 10 types of people.
Those that understand and those that don't.

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:46:38 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

No, most residential power is derived from a single phase of the 3
phase distribution system. The primary of the branch transformer is
accross ONE phase of the ncoming power,and the secondary is center
tapped - providing a "split" phase where each side of the service is
180 degrees out of phase with the other - making the voltage of the
two phases additive.

When derived from 2 phases of a 3 phase supply you get 120 and 208
(the sum of 120 degree out of phase)

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 18:33:13 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Yet it IS distributed - just about everywhere. Using ground as a
current return is no longer common.

[trader_4]

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 5:28:23 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <a0894ab9-cf26-4758...@googlegroups.com>,
> tra...@optonline.net says...
> >
> > All of which is irrelevant, of course to what you have coming in on
> > the house 240/120 service. Why don't you answer the simple questions
> > I posed in the example of Ralph's two phase service?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> I should have stated that was not my opinion, but a copy and paste from
> Wikipeaia.
>
> I don't intend to get into a discussion over this, Just wanted to point
> out that by definition there is/was 2 phase in a few parts of the US.
> It does not matter what anyone says, there is a certain definition for 2
> phase.

Sure, what you copied and pasted was what one implementation of two
phase power looked like a hundred years ago. No one denies that
existed. Are you insisting that any two phase power system
has to be 90 deg because that happened to be one of the many possibilities
that was actually implemented?. What you have is just an
example of *one* implementation of a two phase power source. It's not
a "definition" of anything. Which of course is why you can't answer
the simple questions posed, eg if the phase angle difference was instead
set to 89 degrees, 130 deg, 175 deg, would there still be two phases there?
If not, why not? I guess you're implying the answer is no, it has to
be 90 deg and only 90 degrees is ever possible? What happens if I rotate
one coil by ten degrees? It all collapses into a black hole or something?

>
> Just like the bianary number system there are 10 types of people.
> Those that understand and those that don't.

Those that understand can answer simple questions, like those
I posed.

[trader_4]

Oh my, while describing 240/120V service, Clare just said the voltage
of the "TWO PHASES" coming from the transformer are additive.
Bingo!

[trader_4]

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Missed this earlier. First you say that each neighborhood gets one
of the three phases, then you say the typical transformer is connected
between TWO phases, which would be impossible if there is only one
phase going to a neighborhood. The first part is what I see here mostly,
except it's not each neighborhood it's one transformer is connected
to one of the primary phases and it serves a few houses. The next
transformer is connected to typically a different primary phase, etc.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 18:33:13 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>>I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
>>voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.
>
>That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
>current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
>dozen or so homes. All underground from the nearest substation to
>the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
>service entrance.

You have Delta distribution but Wye is very popular.

. http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

The downside of Wye is you are using the ground as a current path and
there is some objectionable current on grounding conductors. That is
also true of the typical service since earth parallels the neutral in
the drop but not as pronounced as it is with Wye distribution. PoCos
like it because it saves one wire.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:46:38 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Medium voltage is typically single phase when it hits the distribution
transformer, either as single ended wye distribution (one hot and one
neutral) or delta distribution (2 hots) but that is still single phase
if the 3d phase is not present on the hubs. The output of the
transformer is also single phase that gets divided with a center tap.
That is how professionals describe it, no matter what contortions
people go through to explain it to morons.

[Mike Oxbern]

On 9/9/2019 8:12 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> Medium voltage is typically single phase when it hits the distribution
> transformer, either as single ended wye distribution (one hot and one
> neutral) or delta distribution (2 hots) but that is still single phase
> if the 3d phase is not present on the hubs. The output of the
> transformer is also single phase that gets divided with a center tap.
> That is how professionals describe it, no matter what contortions
> people go through to explain it to morons.

Exactly!

I have a Siemens breaker panel and a Generac ATS, both labeled single phase.  Only a moron would claim it's 2-phase.

[gfre...@aol.com]

My neighborhood in Maryland had delta distribution with 2 phases
feeding each transformer. I screwed with them, about red leg three
phase but they would not put that in a 1&2 family. It would have only
cost them one more transformer but no dice.

[trader_4]

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-4, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.
>
> Medium voltage is typically single phase when it hits the distribution
> transformer, either as single ended wye distribution (one hot and one
> neutral) or delta distribution (2 hots) but that is still single phase
> if the 3d phase is not present on the hubs. The output of the
> transformer is also single phase that gets divided with a center tap.
> That is how professionals describe it, no matter what contortions
> people go through to explain it to morons.

Not this professional, who I've cited before. An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering, power industry consultant, presenting
a paper at a power engineering conference:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245345037_Center-Tapped_Transformer_and_120-240-V_Secondary_Models

Center-Tapped Transformer and 120-/240-V Secondary Models

Distribution engineers have treated the standard ldquosingle-phaserdquo distribution transformer connection as single phase because, from the primary side of the transformer, these connections are single phase and, in the case of standard rural distribution, single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling, we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary, which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120-/240-V secondary systems are not single-phase line-to-ground systems, but they are three-wire systems with two phases and one ground wire. Furthermore, the standard 120-/240-V secondary system is different from the two-phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180deg instead of three phases separated by 120deg"


And then he proceeds to analyze the circuit back to the transformer,
treating it as two voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase,
applying basic electrical engineering principles. Exactly what I've
said. And you have to treat it that way, there is no other way to
correctly analyze it, which is the point of the paper.

I'm sure he could and would answer the simple questions I posed too,
about changing the phase of Ralph's old 90 deg two phase power to 79 deg,
130 deg, 179 deg or 180 deg, which none of you can answer. I can answer
them, the professor can too, because we understand definitions and
approach it all logically and systematically. We don't rely on an
example of one implementation from 100 years ago and claim that is
what defines phases. That;s the beauty and elegance of science,
it all fits together, we don't make it up as we go.

Sine(wt)
Sine(wt+ O)

O = 90 deg, you have Ralph's example
O = 180 deg, you have split-phase
O = 360 deg, you have two sources in perfect sync

In your world, for some unknown reason, when O=180, we must fall into
some mysterious black hole, where the same rules that apply everywhere
else, no longer apply. In my experience, science and engineering does
not work that way.

[Scott Lurndal]

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

[trader_4]

Of course it does in a wye configuration. Did you look at all those
pictures of pole transformers I posted links to? One connection on top
of the transformer to one primary phase,, the other side is connected
to the neutral, you can see the neutral in some of those pics.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>An IEEE fellow, professor
>of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

[gfre...@aol.com]

Again we are talking about the meaning of terms.
"Primaries" refers to the "ungrounded" conductors feeding the input of
a transformer. The NFPA is really trying to get away from the term
"Neutral" because it gets misused so often and they prefer "Grounded
Conductor".
You notice that replacing neutral more in every cycle.

[trader_4]

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.

[Professor Nutley]

The ubiquitous AA alkaline battery is two phase as well.
If you check the battery voltage, you'll have +1.5 volts.
If you reverse the leads on a voltmeter, you'll have a negative -1.5 volt phase.

[devnull]

On 9/10/19 9:40 AM, trader_4 wrote:
> Not this professional, who I've cited before. An IEEE fellow, professor
> of electrical engineering, power industry consultant, presenting
> a paper at a power engineering conference:
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245345037_Center-Tapped_Transformer_and_120-240-V_Secondary_Models

Every electrical manufacturer in the US calls it single phase.

You and some nutty professor call it two phase.

You might want to rethink your strategy.

[trader_4]

Phase only applies to sources with periodic waveforms. What you're
talking about with a DC source is polarity.

[trader_4]

You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other. Again, your silly argument is like saying
that because tissues are called Kleenex, that someone who analyzes
them, correctly applies science and says they are a soft paper product
made from trees, is wrong.

How would you draw a Thevenin equivalent circuit that represents the
transformer delivering power to a house?

[Professor Nutley]

No, a battery is just a square wave two phase.

[devnull]

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
> nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
> is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
> of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

[Sam E]

[snip]

> You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
> of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
> means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
> service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
> difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.
>
> So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
> say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
> a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
> one of the windings on the generator. Are there
> still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
> two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
> I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
> there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
> 3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
> from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
> electrically different, how they behave differently?
>
> This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
> something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
> 240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
> but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you

> have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Whether you have 1 phase or 2 depends on the reference point, either the
middle of the (center tapped) transformer secondary or one end. It seems
normal to use the point that's grounded.

120V, 120V (2 phases, 180 deg. apart))

or

120V, 240V (same phase)

Some people seem to be confusing this with the single phase at the
transformer primary.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

"God has done nothing for men and women except to scare them out of
their wits." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other
Essays_]

[Joe W]

On 9/9/19 4:28 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

> I don't intend to get into a discussion over this, Just wanted to point
> out that by definition there is/was 2 phase in a few parts of the US.

That describes a 2-phase system (phases 90 degrees apart, and I don't
think anyone here disagrees with that. That they do disagree with is
that being 2-phase keeps anything else from being 2-phase. "2" and
"phase" are WORDS, and not restricted to a single instance.

> It does not matter what anyone says, there is a certain definition
for > 2 phase.

And that isn't it. It is an EXAMPLE of a 2-phase system.

It's as if the first truck you ever saw was a propane delivery truck, so
you think dump trucks can't really be trucks.

[SPAM snipped]

[Mark Lloyd]

On 9/9/19 4:33 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

> When derived from 2 phases of a 3 phase supply you get 120 and 208
> (the sum of 120 degree out of phase)

I'm not sure if it's the way you're supposed to figure it, but

240 * sin(120)

is approximately 208. I haven't seen it, but have heard of large
apartment buildings wired that way.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted
was once eccentric." -- Bertrand Russel

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <LpSdF.93922$sD.1...@fx24.iad>,
why.sho...@be.email.invalid says...

>
> Whether you have 1 phase or 2 depends on the reference point, either the
> middle of the (center tapped) transformer secondary or one end. It seems
> normal to use the point that's grounded.
>
>
>

Just as if you have a person on the north pole and one on the south pole
of the earth. They are standing and extend their right hand past their
head. Which one is pointing up ?

If you are a space ship and can see them both. The seem to be pointing
in opposit directions. So then which one is point up ?

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

> In your world, for some unknown reason, when O=180, we must fall into
> some mysterious black hole, where the same rules that apply everywhere
> else, no longer apply. In my experience, science and engineering does
> not work that way.

It's been a long time since I learned to be suspicious of
discontinuities like that (like that second phase being fine at 179 or
181, but ceasing to exist at 180). It's one way of knowing when a thing
can't be true.

[Sam E]

One end of the primary connects to a live wire. What is the other end
connected to?

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

[trader_4]

Exactly. And again, since no one will attempt to give a definition of
N phase power, I'll give you what I think a sound definition is:


A power delivery method utilizing N sources that are periodic,
of the same frequency, that differ in phase.

And then it becomes where do you look, what are you analyzing.
If one looks at the primary
side of the transformer, then clearly there is only one phase.
However if you look at the secondary side, the three wires going into
the house, then you have two sources, ie the the two halves of the
transformer that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.
Which is what that IEEE paper is about, how you have to treat it as
such to analyze it. For example, if there is reactive loading on
one side of the transformer, purely resistive loads on the other,
then the voltage and current waveforms on one side can have a
phase difference from the other side of the same transformer.
That is what the professor was pointing out, in terms of how it has
to be treated and analyzed.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC <jack.legg.handy...@aol.llc> wrote:

> On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
>> I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
>> are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
>> I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
>> additional lights in other basement room.
>> HELP PLEASE!
>
> First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
> Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house. Are you mental?

[Mark Lloyd]

On 9/10/19 11:35 AM, Professor Nutley wrote:

[snip]

> The ubiquitous AA alkaline battery is two phase as well.
> If you check the battery voltage, you'll have +1.5 volts.
> If you reverse the leads on a voltmeter, you'll have a negative -1.5
> volt phase.

"one or the other" is not the same as 2-phase.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

> No, a battery is just a square wave two phase.

That's a really unusual battery, that keeps reversing polarity. Anyway,
you'd just be getting one phase.

[Mark Lloyd]

On the secondary side of the transformer, you have 2 voltage sources
(both the same voltage). If the phase is the same also, you could
connect both together, for more current.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 4:32:09 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 9/10/19 1:01 PM, devnull wrote:
> > On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> >> You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills.  Neither I
> >> nor the professor said that we would call it two phase.  Only that what
> >> is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
> >> of phase with each other.
> >
> > You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your
> > oscilloscope leads up backwards.
>
> On the secondary side of the transformer, you have 2 voltage sources
> (both the same voltage). If the phase is the same also, you could
> connect both together, for more current.
>

That's true and it also demonstrates that when you treat the transformer
as what it is, two voltage sources differing in phase, it's all
covered. With phase difference of zero, you would have two voltage
sources in perfect sync that could deliver current from both,
like you just said.
With phase difference of 180, you have two sources that deliver
120V with respect to the neutral, or 240V between the two sources.
With phase difference of 90, you have Ralph's two phase from 100 years
ago.

[Sam E]

On 9/10/19 3:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

> Just as if you have a person on the north pole and one on the south pole
> of the earth. They are standing and extend their right hand past their
> head. Which one is pointing up ?
>
> If you are a space ship and can see them both. The seem to be pointing
> in opposit directions. So then which one is point up ?

In that case, what is UP?

Look in a mirror and point to the right with your right arm. The image
in the mirror is pointing to the left with its left arm, but you both
are pointing in the same direction. The mirror image is not reversed
left-right, it's left and right that are reversed.

As to that transformer, what is your point of reference when measuring
phase?

[spam snipped]

[Mike Oxbern]

If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work,  you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of  $125

...if you follow the law, LOL.

[Commander Kinsey]

I thought it was bad here. We only need permits for gas works, or for buildings which can be seen by neighbours. For some reason this excludes conservatories (which are classed as a temporary building?!?), garages, and sheds, as long as they are only 1 storey high. And no I didn't inform anyone when I moved my own gas main. It's MY gas main.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
>> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> >An IEEE fellow, professor
>> >of electrical engineering,
>>
>> I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
>> never touched a piece of wire.
>> Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
>> novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
>
>In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
>principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
>denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
>trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
>that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
>referred to.
>
>

No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 12:35:31 PM UTC-4, Professor Nutley wrote:
>> On 9/10/19 12:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
>> >> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> An IEEE fellow, professor
>> >>> of electrical engineering,
>> >>
>> >> I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
>> >> never touched a piece of wire.
>> >> Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
>> >> novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
>> >
>> > In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
>> > principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
>> > denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
>> > trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
>> > that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
>> > referred to.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> The ubiquitous AA alkaline battery is two phase as well.
>> If you check the battery voltage, you'll have +1.5 volts.
>> If you reverse the leads on a voltmeter, you'll have a negative -1.5 volt phase.
>
>
>Phase only applies to sources with periodic waveforms. What you're
>talking about with a DC source is polarity.

It really depends on how fast you can flip a battery over doesn't ?
See what happens when you start confusing terms.

[gfre...@aol.com]

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> >> On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
> >> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >An IEEE fellow, professor
> >> >of electrical engineering,
> >>
> >> I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
> >> never touched a piece of wire.
> >> Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
> >> novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
> >
> >In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering

> >principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p

> >denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
> >trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
> >that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
> >referred to.
> >
> >
> No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
> specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
> students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:

Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell

from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?

[trader_4]

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

[Clare Snyder]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:40:44 -0500, Mark Lloyd <n...@mail.invalid>
wrote:

>On 9/9/19 4:33 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> When derived from 2 phases of a 3 phase supply you get 120 and 208
>> (the sum of 120 degree out of phase)
>
>I'm not sure if it's the way you're supposed to figure it, but
>
>240 * sin(120)
>
>is approximately 208. I haven't seen it, but have heard of large
>apartment buildings wired that way.

You got it correct. Step to the head of this class.

[Clare Snyder]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:16:47 -0500, Sam E
<why.sho...@be.email.invalid> wrote:

>On 9/10/19 8:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> writes:
>>> On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
>>> on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
>>> exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
>>> connected between one primary and the primary neutral.
>>
>> Primary doesn't have a neutral.
>
>One end of the primary connects to a live wire. What is the other end
>connected to?

Another live wire that is 180 dergrees out of phase.

[Clare Snyder]

Here it is NOT the "taxing authority" - it is the ESA - the
"Electrical Safety Authority"

[Clare Snyder]

Arguing with Trader is like wresting with a pig

[Dean Hoffman]

Aren't they talking about that single wire earth return? That
must be really
rare. I don't remember seeing it anywhere in my little world. EXCEPT
for electric
fencers to keep livestock in.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <h5mgnetgumiv0g6i1...@4ax.com>,
cl...@snyder.on.ca says...

>
> >No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
> >specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
> >students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
> Arguing with Trader is like wresting with a pig
>
>

That is why I try to stay out of it. I just as I thought we would have
another 400 postings on the 2 phase thing.

The 2 phase electrical power system is well defined. Any other
discussion is just a twist of what the uninformed try to make out of it.

Just as you may say water boils at 212 deg F or 100 deg C. It only does
that when under a specific pressure and is pure water.

Water can actually boil over a range of less than room temperature to
several humdred degrees depending on how much pressure it is under.
even just exposed to the normal air, it will boil at a higher
temperature at places lower than sea level and lower temperature at the
top of a mountain.

[Clare Snyder]

I believe it MAY still be in use in one of the western states of
the USA as well as a small portion of remote rural Saskatchewan, and
parts of the Australian outback - but it's use is declining steadily
even there. It WAS common in the rural electrification schemes of many
areas, but stray voltage issues with livestock, among other concerns,
has curtailed ot's use (voltage differential between water lines and
ground is a SERIOUS issue)

[devnull]

On 9/10/19 11:41 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> Water can actually boil over a range of less than room temperature to
> several humdred degrees depending on how much pressure it is under.
> even just exposed to the normal air, it will boil at a higher
> temperature at places lower than sea level and lower temperature at the
> top of a mountain.

Yes, water is 3-phase. ;-)

[trader_4]

Figures that you'd weigh in with a stupid ad hominem attack.

Let's review. An obvious troll posted what was clearly a joke about
two phase. It was ignored, until YOU took the bait, you were so
dumb you not only couldn't see it was a troll but you responded
as if it was a serious remark, where it was obviously a joke.

Then later you posted this:

'The primary of the branch transformer is
accross ONE phase of the ncoming power,and the secondary is center
tapped - providing a "split" phase where each side of the service is
180 degrees out of phase with the other - making the voltage of the
two phases additive. "


Which of course is consistent with exactly what I've been saying.
Yet you then proceed to attack me, when I agree with you. You're
a real piece of work.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:41:08 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <h5mgnetgumiv0g6i1...@4ax.com>,
> cl...@snyder.on.ca says...
> >
> > >No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
> > >specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
> > >students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
> > Arguing with Trader is like wresting with a pig
> >
> >
>
> That is why I try to stay out of it. I just as I thought we would have
> another 400 postings on the 2 phase thing.

If that's the case, why did you join Clare in taking the bait from
an obvious troll? Not only was it a troll, the post was clearly
a joke, not serious.

>
> The 2 phase electrical power system is well defined. Any other
> discussion is just a twist of what the uninformed try to make out of it.

You know you're getting really annoying. You have no technical
grounding in this and don't know what you're talking about.
We've been polite and reasonable. I tried to explain to you
that just because 100 years ago there was *one* example of a two
phase power system, that does not define what two phase is.
Joe tried to explain it to you too, saying that it's like
seeing a propane truck and then insisting that defines what a
truck is, that there can be no other trucks. Or saying that
because there was an implementation of 3 phase 480V, 60 hz,
that defines that 3 phase is and that if you had a system
with 3 phases at 400V, 50hz, or with theoretical phase angles
other than 120 degrees, that three phases are not still there.
If I took that 100 year old 90 deg two phase implementation and
move one winding by ten degrees, made it 100 instead of 90 deg,
would we still have two phases present? Or would the world
collapse into some kind of black hole?


No one disputes
that a hundred years ago there was a two phase power system.
That has nothing whatever to do with what the service coming
into a house looks like, what it is or isn't. I even gave you
an IEEE fellow, a professor of electrical engineering with
40 years experience, a guy who consults for power companies
as a source where he writes exactly about this issue, saying
that 240/120 is really a two phase power source. He gave this
paper at a power industry conference and it's published by the
IEEE, ie it's been peer reviewed:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245345037_Center-Tapped_Transformer_and_120-240-V_Secondary_Models


Distribution engineers have treated the standard ldquosingle-phaserdquo distribution transformer connection as single phase because, from the primary side of the transformer, these connections are single phase and, in the case of standard rural distribution, single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling, we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary, which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120-/240-V secondary systems are not single-phase line-to-ground systems, but they are three-wire systems with two phases and one ground wire. Furthermore, the standard 120-/240-V secondary system is different from the two-phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180deg instead of three phases separated by 120deg. What all of this means is that analysis software and methods must now deal with an electrical system requiring a different set of algorithms than those used to model and analyze the primary system. This paper will describe the modeling and analysis of the single-phase center-tapped transformer serving 120- and 240-V single-phase loads from a three-wire secondary.

>
> Just as you may say water boils at 212 deg F or 100 deg C. It only does
> that when under a specific pressure and is pure water.
>
> Water can actually boil over a range of less than room temperature to
> several humdred degrees depending on how much pressure it is under.
> even just exposed to the normal air, it will boil at a higher
> temperature at places lower than sea level and lower temperature at the
> top of a mountain.
>
>

Thanks for helping prove our point. Yes, water will boil at
different temperatures depending on the pressure. To apply this
to your case, your position is that water can only boil at 212F
because water was boiled in
Philadelphia in 1920 at 212F, end of story. Inquiring, intelligent
minds look at things like that and ask, what if it was at two
atmospheres pressure, what would change? would it still boil at
212F? And that's why I've posed those simple questions about
your example of two phase power from 100 years ago, to try to
get you to look at it logically. to analyze what is there, why
it was called two phase and how it relates to 240/120 today.
Here are those simple questions again;

Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell

from the panel in your house which of the two I had, the old
90 deg two phase morphed or split-phase and how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?


But sadly neither you nor anyone else on the other side of this
will answer those simple questions, for obvious reasons. I've
answered all the questions put to me. You can do that when you
understand the electrical principles. For some reason, you prefer
to wander in the wilderness.

[Commander Kinsey]

Who said it was the taxing authority? And whatever name it is, it's just another nosy / money making government scheme.

[trader_4]

The money typically winds up in the same bucket. I guess Clare is one
of those people they have won over with permit fees, registration fees,
user fees, etc. instead of calling it a tax.

[Mark Lloyd]

On 9/10/19 7:18 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

[snip]

> It really depends on how fast you can flip a battery over doesn't ?
> See what happens when you start confusing terms.

No flipping speed will have it in both directions at the same time,
which you'd need for 2 phase.

--
105 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"If our democracy is to flourish, it must have criticism; if our
government is to function, it must have dissent." -- Henry Steele

[Jerry T]

On 9/10/19 10:41 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

> The 2 phase electrical power system is well defined. Any other
> discussion is just a twist of what the uninformed try to make out of it.

I'm pointing at my 1996 Honda Accord, "THIS is a car. NOTHING else is."
All other cars you see are illusory :-)

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 2:01:56 PM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
> On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> > You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
> > nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
> > is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
> > of phase with each other.
>
> You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

That's totally wrong. Take the scope ground and connect it to the logical
system reference point, the neutral. Take one probe and connect it to
L1 and take another probe and connect it to L2. Nothing "backwards"
there. And you will see two 120V sine wave voltage sources, 180 deg
out of phase with each other. It's how you get 240V between them.

[Mark Lloyd]

That sounded funny until I remembered that the word "phase" is also used
for the states of matter, such as solid liquid and gas.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same. 180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.

[trader_4]

Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.

180 out
> is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
> I am not doing this anymore.

Is it only one phase when Ralph's two phase alternator is at 90 deg,
100 deg or 179 deg phase difference? How about at 181? 270?
If you want to exclude 180 then it would have to be by definition, otherwise
it's just as valid a phase as any of the others. Excluding it would
seem rather odd, because then Ralph's alternator would have 120V
coming out of one winding, 120v with 180 deg phase difference
coming out of the other winding, so if the second one isn't a phase
what would you call it?

[Mike Oxbern]

Here are two plots, one at 0 and one at 180 degrees.

Looks like single phase with the second plot having reversed leads.  Looks electrically useless to me.

http://fooplot.com/#W3sidHlwZSI6MCwiZXEiOiJzaW4oeCkiLCJjb2xvciI6IiMwMDAwMDAifSx7InR5cGUiOjAsImVxIjoic2luKHgrMy4xNDE2KSIsImNvbG9yIjoiIzAwMDAwMCJ9LHsidHlwZSI6MTAwMH1d

Would you like to buy a special dual-polarity AA battery?

[gfre...@aol.com]

OK so you admit what you see is just an artifact of where you hook up
your scope. If I corner ground a delta using exactly the same
transformer with exactly the same input you won't see anything "180"
out of phase.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 22:11:17 -0400, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

Or a grounded conductor.

Pretty soon you are going to be in a semantics discussion about why 2
conductors of a 3 phase are single phase.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:25:02 -0500, Dean Hoffman
<dh0...@windstream.net> wrote:

No we are talking about wye distribution with one phase conductor and
a grounded conductor although there will always be some earth return.
Measuring the grounding conductor coming down the pole from each
transformer on my street that earth return varies from around a half
amp up to almost 3. I also see current on my service neutral with the
main breaker off but I probably have the best GES on the street so I
get a lot of that current.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 06:29:18 -0400, devnull <dev...@void.nul> wrote:

>Yes, water is 3-phase. ;-)

Liquid, solid or gas

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

>And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
>to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
>it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
>the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
>Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
>bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
>electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
>have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
>You can't tell them apart.
>

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.
>

[trader_4]

It's not electrically useless, it's how 240/120 is delivered to your
house on 3 wires. And your graph sure shows two phases, separated by
180 deg. How would you describe that, if not two sine waves, one
180 deg out of phase with the other?

[trader_4]

OMG. There is no 12, 3, 6 and 9. In Ralph's 100 year old 90 deg
two phase example, there is only 12 and 3. Twelve being 0 degrees
and 3 o'clock being 90 deg. Two windings that are 90 deg separated
in phase. Nothing symmetrical about that.

>
> >And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
> >to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
> >it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
> >the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
> >Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
> >bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
> >electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
> >have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
> >You can't tell them apart.
> >
>
> You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
> (using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

Double OMG. It's very simple. We have two alternators on a common
shaft. Each produces a sine wave voltage. They are arranged so that
one winding is shifted 90 deg from the other. Yes? Just loosen up
the winding on one and rotate it ten more degrees. Now you have 100 deg
separation. It's quite amazing you appear to believe that in fact
90 deg is somehow special, sacred, unique and that any other phase
angle can't just as easily be produced, by simply rotating the winding
of one of the alternators.

[trader_4]

No, it's not an artifact, you're seeing exactly what is there.
You act like I want to hook the scope ground to some bizarre point,
like out in space or tied to a water bucket. In fact, it's being
hooked to the neutral, which is the common system reference point.
Do you deny that 240/120 looks like and behaves exactly like two
120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other?

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

[Clare Snyder]

In 3 phase it's all 120 degree phase shift. If you connect the scope
across a single phase, of course that is all you will see

[Dean Hoffman]

On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

> And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
> Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
> as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
> 90. Again:
>
> Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
> phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
> make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
> do. Would there still be two phases
> there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
> now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
> And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
> write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
> Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
> And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
> They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
> things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
> then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
> continuous, falls apart.
>

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?

[Mike Oxbern]

Look like what I'd expect to see with a two channel scope.

Trace 1:  common on L1, signal on L2

Trace 2:  signal on L1, common on L2

Again, would you like to buy a magic dual-polarity AA battery?

[trader_4]

What happened to the NEUTRAL? Do you deny that 240/120V into
a house is TWO 120V sine wave voltage sources, that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other or "of opposite polarity', which
is the same thing? That is the only way you get 240/120 on
three wires.

Or try answering the simple questions I posed from Ralph's
example of two phase, 90 deg power from 100 years ago.
It was two phase, 90 deg apart, on three wires, two hots,
common return. Rotate one
winding so instead of 90 deg, it's 100 deg. Are there still
two phases there? Rotate it to 179 deg. Still two phases?
Rotate it to 180, what happens now? What you have at 180 is
exactly what you have on 240/120V into your house.

[trader_4]

Yes.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:11:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

I don't know what ralph drew but 2 phase 5 wire looks like a clock

https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA212438/

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:32:47 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

There is nothing bizarre with corner grounded delta and any single
transformer is exactly like the one in front of your house.

[Clare Snyder]

For the same reason a 3 phase motor self starts. What does a capacitor
do? it puts the current out of phase with the voltage - and causes the
magnetic field to effectively rotate. Same thing a multi-phase motor
does - but the multi-phase motor does it much more efficiently. 2phase
makes a noisy motor because it bsically gets "kick - rest ,kick
-rest, kick - rest - where a 3 phase gets kick-kick-kick-kick - with
the kicks overlapping each other

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:08:14 -0500, Dean Hoffman
<dh0...@windstream.net> wrote:

Yes, just like a 3 phase motor since you already have a phase shift.
That is another indication that single phase is just that, you still
need a capacitor to create a phase angle no matter how you connect a
single phase motor. They do make shaded poll motors that start
without a capacitor but they do a trick with the shaded pole winding
that makes it look like there is a phase shift. They don't have much
starting torque tho.

[Clare Snyder]

On a 3 phase power supply each phase is a singlr phase power sourse -
so will look like a single phase.

With a multi-trace scope, you overlay the phases and see them
displaced by 33.3% - or 120 degrees

On the old 2 phase system you would find the 2 phases overlap by 25%
- or 90 degrees.

On a split single phase they overlap 100% - or 180 degrees Connecting
the phases in parallel will cause a direct short circuit

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:54:24 -0400, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

But if I ground my scope and look at one of those corner grounded
transformers I will see 120v (RMS) at the center tap and 240v at the
opposite end, in identical phase relationship.

Trader's problem is he can't comprehend that 180 degrees is a straight
line (I guess he had a bent protractor in school) and he starts trying
to confuse the issue with impossible phase shifts.

[Dean Hoffman]

So doesn't that render our modern 240 vac single phase motors
a special case? We call them single phase just because they don't
do the same thing as the old two phase?

[trader_4]

And what happens with 3 phase if you try to connect the phases
in a parallel? A direct short.

What happens with Ralph's 100 year old two phase, 90 deg
three wire power if you connect the two phases in parallel?
A direct short. Was there a point there?

Once again, a 180 deg phase difference is just one of the many
possible phase possibilities and we analyze them all the same
way, using the same rules, methods and tools.

And a 180 deg phase difference is not overlapping 100%, it's
a shift of one half period, which in that terminology would be 50%.


Now you can go ahead and say those comments are like wrestling
with a pig. But as I see it, facts are facts and you're wrong
in the above.