What's a good way to get rid of rain surface rust on tools left outside

[Danny D.]

Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12252772/img/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12252771/img/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

[Oren]

<http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/s_trmt_naval/overview/Loctite-Naval-Jelly-Rust-Dissolver.htm>

...along with some steel wool

Once cleaned to your liking then oil the tools.

[harry]

Steel wool and WD40

[Stormin Mormon]

I'd try wire brush and WD-40. Good an answer as any.

Used to be you could buy rust remover jelly.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kg88ad$71p$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

[Oren]

...and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Naval Jelly

I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/553472_235119_Loctite_Naval_Jelly_Rust_Dissolver.pdf
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water >50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> I'd try wire brush and WD-40.

So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.

Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
tools or just those that have been wire brushed?

Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).

I ask because I never oiled tools before also.

Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
of oxide?

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> Used to be you could buy rust remover jelly.

I called ACE Hardware and they have it in stock for less than $10 a bottle.

Looking up sources of phosphoric acid, I see I can also buy 85% H3PO4
at about $13/Liter or $40/gallon (which makes a ton of naval jelly). :)
http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=phosphoric&affiliate_pro_tracking_id=17:30:

Here is another source of H3PO4 at $50/gallon:
http://www.interstateproducts.com/1_step_rust_killer_pricing.htm

Here's a source of "Aqua Mix Phosphoric Acid Cleaner Substitute"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GFT65O/104-2624253-4972718
The MSDS says it's Urea, monohydrochloride 7-13%
http://www.ptsaquamix.com/index.php?page=Product.Product&externalId=487
Hmm. I wonder if peeing will work on the rust! :)

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800, harry wrote:

> Steel wool and WD40

< warning >... RANDOM rust removal ideas follow ... < / warning>

Seems like the naval jelly & steel wool win out for removing the rust,
and then you guys add an oil (I'm not sure why WD-40 over any other oil).

Looking up what else works, I see there is some discussion as
to whether hydrochloric acid (HCL) or muriatic pool acid would
work since HCl is used to pickle steel (and I have gallons of HCl):
http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/22/21953.htm

Apparently Hydrochloric acid + iron yields iron chloride.

But, if you don't wash all the iron chloride out, water + iron chloride
in a warm environment will regenerate iron oxide (rust) + HCl.

On the other hand, phosphoric acid + iron yields iron phosphate, which,
even if you leave it on the metal, won't go back to iron oxide.

So the phosphoric acid is better than hydrochloric acid for rust removal.

[Zen]

Danny D. wrote:

> What's the best way to get this surface rust off?

Rust Removal using Electrolysis
http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

[Tegger]

"Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote in news:kg8tqg$60g$2
@speranza.aioe.org:

> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
>> I'd try wire brush and WD-40.
>
> So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
> rust,

There's a better alternative these days: EvapoRust. This stuff is
absolutely astounding. It's one of those genuine advances, like the
discovery of germs.

The stuff is literally like magic. Drop your parts in this non-toxic, water
soluble liquid, leave it overnight, and it's as though there was never any
rust on the parts to begin with. A very nice side benefit is that your
original surface texture remains undamaged, unlike wire-brushing.

I've used Naval Jelly for years, but this stuff just totally outclasses it.

http://www.evaporust.com/

The only drawback is that the part you're trying to de-rust needs to be
completely submerged in EvapoRust. You cannot paint it on a surface the way
you would with Naval Jelly, so de-rusting fenders and the like is not
possible unless you have a stock tank full of EvapoRust.

As for rust-preventive treatment afterwards, just a wipe with motor oil is
fine.


--
Tegger

[Ripple Whine]

Zen wrote:

> Rust Removal using Electrolysis http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

The problem with electrolysis is that the result will rust
quicker (unless you protect it).

Here is a naval jelly "secrets of surface rust removal revealed"
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/secrets-surface-rust-removal-revealed-55679.html

[Ralph Mowery]

"Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message

news:kg8tqg$60g$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

Seems that WD-40 is the word of choice for those that don't know any beter.
Cures moles, colds, and tight buttholes.

Motor oil is fine. Most any oil will do to keep the rust down. The oil
provides a barrier from the tool to the air and water. There is a product
made by LPS that is made to help prevent rust. I think it is called LPS2.

The best way is not to let the tools get wet, and wipe them down every year
or so if you do not use them very often.

[Oren]

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\

[Frank]

Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

[Tegger]

"Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote in

news:kg8v91$a5m$2...@speranza.aioe.org:

> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
>> Used to be you could buy rust remover jelly.
>
> I called ACE Hardware and they have it in stock for less than $10 a
> bottle.

Forget that. EvapoRust is what you want. Amazing stuff. Seriously.
http://www.evaporust.com/



--
Tegger

[Oren]

Danny,

When ready to oil after cleaning use a clean rag, motor oil -- applied
sparingly thin. The oil prevents further rust, at least until the
next time <g> I watched my grandfather save his hand saw from the time
I left it in the yard and the dew feel upon it. No belt wippin' that
time ;-|

Don't over think this. Some tools in that tool box you left outside
are not worth keeping.... hack saw blade..

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:47:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\

Hi Oren,

Here is the short form of the explanation.

Naval jelly is plain old phosphoric acid (plus a wetting agent such
as plain old alcohol) which, when applied to my rusty tools, will
convert the rust to 'black powder', which I can then wash off.

Now I know how to clean up the rusty table where the tools lay:

1. Rust on the table
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12255674/img/12255674.jpg

2. Pool acid on the rust
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12255675/img/12255675.jpg

3. All the rust on the table gone
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12255677/img/12255677.jpg

4. New concrete spots are the result! :(
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12255678/img/12255678.jpg

[Oren]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:33:53 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote:

> Hmm. I wonder if peeing will work on the rust! :)

Would weasel piss work?

[Oren]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:56:24 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inv...@example.com>
wrote:

>Forget that. EvapoRust is what you want. Amazing stuff. Seriously.
>http://www.evaporust.com/
>

I saved this link. What about rust on guns and gun barrels?

Safe?

[Oren]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:56:04 -0500, Frank
<frankdo...@comcast.net> wrote:

>> Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\
>>
>
>Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
>I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

Coca Cola is good for cleaning windshields and chrome bumpers when
washed and rinsed.

Will Coca Cola rust a nail? Some say it will.

[Tegger]

Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote in news:oi4gi8pmsb6ogvubtlc51bk30ch0ngou13@
4ax.com:

I clicked the link that said "Click here to read more about Evapo-Rust rust
remover", and it told me this:


"How Evapo-rust affects coatings

"EVAPO-RUST is highly recommended by the NRA gunsmithing school and is
utilized by FBI, CIA, NATO and other law enforcement and forensics
agencies. EVAPO-RUST is perfect for removing oxide weapon finishes such as
Bluing, Parkerizing, Zinc Phosphate, and Browning.

"Anodizing, Cobalt Tungsten Carbide, Powder Coating, Chrome, Nickel, Paint,
and most other coatings will not be removed as long as they do not contain
oxides. EVAPO-RUST will not harm lead or solder points."


So it appears that if your barrels have an oxide finish (bluing, etc),
Evapo-rust will take the bluing off. In other words, NOT safe for oxide
finishes. It appears that Evapo-Rust will remove ANY form of oxide.

--
Tegger

[Jon Danniken]

On 02/22/2013 03:05 PM, Danny D. wrote:
>
> Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
> hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

HCl is just going to cause rust. I use muriatic to dissolve
galvanizing (for welding), and all of the ferrous objects near the
bottle end up getting very rusty.

Jon

[Red]

On Feb 22, 5:34 pm, "Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Looking up what else works, I see there is some discussion as
> to whether hydrochloric acid (HCL) or muriatic pool acid would
> work since HCl is used to pickle steel (and I have gallons of HCl):
>  >

> Apparently Hydrochloric acid + iron yields iron chloride.
>
> But, if you don't wash all the iron chloride out, water + iron chloride
> in a warm environment will regenerate iron oxide (rust) + HCl.
>

I screwed up when I left the lid off a container of HCl setting on my
shop bench. Two days later when I went back in the shop the fumes had
caused every iron tool hanging on the pegboard to have a film of rust
similar to your toolbox. HCl never comes inside any more.

[Doug]

You're correct. My dad was a old builder/carpenter and had naval
jelly around. I presume for the rust on tools? Gee, you're a
pretty smart fella except when it comes to guns <grin>.

[nestork]

Harry:

You could probably save yourself some money here.

Oren's recommendation of Loctite's Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver utilizes a
well known chemical reaction between rust and phosphoric acid that
converts the rust into a black compound called Ferric Phosphate or
FePO4.

Here's what Wikipedia says about using Phosphoric acid to convert rust
to Ferric Phosphate:
_________________________________________________________________________________

'Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid)

Rust removal:
Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application
to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts

reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate,

FePO4.

"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in
the same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is
more often formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is
sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust
killer". As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even
overhead surfaces.

After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid
may be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also
be left in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion
resistance (such protection is also provided by the superficially
similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating
processes).
_________________________________________________________________________________


So, I took a look at the MSDS for Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver,
and sure enough it's mostly phosphoric acid. It's got 10 to 30 percent
phosphoric acid in it. It's got some other stuff in it too, but those
other things are to gel it so that it can be applied to vertical
surfaces and overhead:

'Household Products Database - Health and Safety Information on
Household Products' (http://tinyurl.com/bfjgnv8)

Now, phosphoric acid is commonly used as the active ingredient in toilet
bowl cleaners. If you just go down to your local home center or
hardware store and look at the toilet bowl cleaners they sell, many of
them will give a phosphoric acid content, or have a warning saying that
it contains phosphoric acid.

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads/msds/IPI-PhosAcidBowl.pdf

If Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver has a phosphoric acid content of
10 to 30 percent, you can use any phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner
with a phosphoric acid content between 10 and 30 percent to get
identical results as you'd get with the Loctite product.

Many toilet bowl cleaners will contain hydrochloric acid, but you want
to use phosphoric acid for converting rust into that stable black
compound, ferric phosphate.

Also, EVERY janitorial supply store listed under "Janitorial Equipment &
Supplies" will, in all certainty, sell a phosphoric acid toilet bowl
cleaner you can use on your tools.

Phosphoric acid is a mild acid. It's about the same strength as CLR.
It won't harm your tools if you leave it on too long, but doing that
won't remove any more rust. Once the rust turns black, just wash the
remaining phosphoric acid off your tools with water and dry immediately
with a rag or paper towels.

Rubbing oil over the ferric phosphate won't do anything, and it'll only
make dirt stick to your tools. I would leave out the business about
applying oil to anything because as soon as you use that tool, the oil
film will get wiped/rubbed off anyway. Just keep your tools dry.




--
nestork

[Oren]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 01:26:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inv...@example.com>

wrote:

>Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote in news:oi4gi8pmsb6ogvubtlc51bk30ch0ngou13@
>4ax.com:
>
>> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:56:24 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inv...@example.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Forget that. EvapoRust is what you want. Amazing stuff. Seriously.
>>>http://www.evaporust.com/
>>>
>>
>> I saved this link. What about rust on guns and gun barrels?
>>
>> Safe?
>>
>
>
>I clicked the link that said "Click here to read more about Evapo-Rust rust
>remover", and it told me this:
>
>
>"How Evapo-rust affects coatings
>
>"EVAPO-RUST is highly recommended by the NRA gunsmithing school and is
>utilized by FBI, CIA, NATO and other law enforcement and forensics
>agencies. EVAPO-RUST is perfect for removing oxide weapon finishes such as
>Bluing, Parkerizing, Zinc Phosphate, and Browning.
>
>"Anodizing, Cobalt Tungsten Carbide, Powder Coating, Chrome, Nickel, Paint,
>and most other coatings will not be removed as long as they do not contain
>oxides. EVAPO-RUST will not harm lead or solder points."
>
>
>So it appears that if your barrels have an oxide finish (bluing, etc),
>Evapo-rust will take the bluing off. In other words, NOT safe for oxide
>finishes. It appears that Evapo-Rust will remove ANY form of oxide.

Nice. I double saved the link under guns and home repair. I'll visit
and read more another time. Thanks.

[ChairMan]

"Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kg88ad$71p$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
> http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12252772/img/12252772.jpg
>
> What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12252771/img/12252771.jpg
>
> Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
> Do you use a special formulation?
>
> How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?
>

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

[Oren]

The table is plastic. Easy

The concrete just etched. Porous

No?

[Oren]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:56:30 -0800 (PST), Red <Red...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I screwed up when I left the lid off a container of HCl setting on my
>shop bench. Two days later when I went back in the shop the fumes had
>caused every iron tool hanging on the pegboard to have a film of rust
>similar to your toolbox. HCl never comes inside any more.
>

The pool acid can narly up the metal in a pool pump enclosure (closet)

Even with the cap on, acid off gases out of plastic jugs -- rust.

[gregz]

I don't think using acid is good at first. It would make a good last step
to get into holes. If you leave navel jelly on, it with start to build big
black marks, much like rust converter. I've done this on car rust spots. It
will not rust further once the conversion takes place. Yo can buy
phosphoric at the auto store. It's a paint prep.
Light rust can be taken off with scotchbrite and soapy water.

Greg

[gregz]

Ketchup.

Greg

[Oren]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:58:29 -0600, Doug <do...@noemailaddress.com>

I know my guns. And a tad about rust.

Guns are tools. I ran, controlled, issued and spent many hours in an
Armory making ammo. At least one of those guns shot two escapees in
the ass at ~ 100 yards, maybe one was just hit in the leg. Fun was I
modified at government expenses. 144mm Howitzers are a hoot to shoot.
Make me happy...

Doug, please do not confuse me with yourself about guns. You said
before you would stay out of gun talk, Here you are again - got cha!

My wife is a former range instructor in firearms, Shall we teach you?

[Oren]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan" <nos...@thanks.com>
wrote:

>I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks restoration
>recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
>Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

[Doug]

No.

Now back on topic or closer to topic... I need to see if I have any
naval jelly around because I could use it right now. I see a bit of
rust on a bottom of a built in oven.

Just in case, is naval jelly sold in hardware stores? And I'll
probably need some heat resistant paint for touch up on the oven (if I
want to be picky about it).

[Oren]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 02:47:15 +0000 (UTC), gregz <ze...@comcast.net>
wrote:

I have a very old brass boat propeller. Ketchup is the suggested way
to clean it. Allow the tomato acid to work. Rinse and clear coat, but
I'm not that far yet. I would trust Ketchup. Can't say for rust
though..

[ChairMan]

Is there any other?<g>

[gregz]

I tried tarnX on brass. It says not for brass, and it sort of worked.

I always used navel jelly on my aluminum wheels after the clear wore off. I
know they sell aluminum jelly, but it's just not as strong.

Greg

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:56:04 -0500, Frank wrote:

> Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
> I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

I'll run an experiment tomorrow in the daylight on the rust-stained table.

1. We already know the pool muriatic acid works wonderfully (HCl).
2. I'll try the Naval Jelly I bought today (phosphoric acid).
3. And, for a test, I'll try lemon juice & coca cola.

I'll snap pictures and and report back the results.

[Oren]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan" <nos...@thanks.com>
wrote:

Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him though...

I'd hire him to build me 1940 Ford coupe, if I decide. I provide the
parts.

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
> 10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
> Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
> thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Had to look up 'thixotropic'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

Certain gels or fluids that are thick (viscous) under normal
conditions flow (become thin, less viscous) over time when shaken,
agitated, or otherwise stressed. They then take a fixed time to
return to a more viscous state.

[Ripple Whine]

nestork wrote:

> Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
> company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
> http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads/msds/IPI-PhosAcidBowl.pdf

That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?

[Ripple Whine]

nestork wrote:

> Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
> company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
> http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads/msds/IPI-PhosAcidBowl.pdf

The PDF says it "Removes rust, lime and organic deposits".

Clearly it removes rust - but HOW does it remove calcium oxide (aka lime)
and what does it mean by organic deposits (other than carbohydrates)?

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 06:02:28 +0000, Ripple Whine wrote:

> Clearly it removes rust - but HOW does it remove calcium oxide (aka lime)
> and what does it mean by organic deposits (other than carbohydrates)?

I have no idea, but googling, I see that phosphoric acid reacts with calcium
oxide to form calcium phosphate and water.
http://www.chegg.com/homework-help/questions-and-answers/calcium-hydroxide-phosphoric-acid-react-form-calcium-phosphate-water-q1594465

So the question is really why would we want to convert toilet bowl
limescale to toilet bowl calcium phosphate [Ca2(PO4)3].

Offhand, my guess is that mixing the acid plus the base, nets a salt
which is (I'm guessing) soluble in water - hence easily cleaned.

Since my shower stall is VERY stained with hard water deposits, I might
try it (but I generally use LimeAway) as a separate experiment for the team.

The MSDS for Lime Away says it's 2.5 to 10% Sulfamic Acid (CAS 5329-14-6).
http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/LIME-A-WAY-Cleaner-Trigger-US-English.pdf

I have never heard of Sulfamic Acid but Wikipedia says it's used to
remove rust and lime by converting them to soluble calcium and iron salts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid

I'm guessing that the phosphoric acid mixes with the lime to create a
salt which is then washed away by dissolving in water.

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:29:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

> The table is plastic. Easy
> The concrete just etched. Porous
> No?

Yes. The concrete turned whitish where the phosphoric acid landed
after dripping off the table.

While pool acid is not recommended for hand tools (it pickles them
but apparently makes the result MORE susceptible to rusting), it seems
to work wonderfully for plastic tables.

Tomorrow I will experiment with the following on that rust and on
the lime of my shower stall.

1. Vinegar (aka ketchup)
2. LimeAway (sulfamic acid)
3. Lemon juice (citric acid)
4. Coca cola (weak phosphoric acid)
5. Naval Jelly (strong phosphoric acid)
6. We already know muriatic acid works fantastically on table rust!

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:08:47 -0600, Doug wrote:

> Just in case, is naval jelly sold in hardware stores?

Today I bought 16 fluid oz (about half a liter) of Naval Jelly at
Home Depot (in the paint department) for about $7.

Here is the URL to the same stuff (which is about 25% phosphoric acid):
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-16-fl-oz-Naval-Jelly-Rust-Dissolver-Bottle-553472/203009241

ACE Hardware also has it in stock for less than $10 a bottle.

Looking up sources of phosphoric acid, I see I can also buy 85% H3PO4
at about $13/Liter or $40/gallon (which makes a ton of naval jelly).
http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=phosphoric&affiliate_pro_tracking_id=17:30:

Here is another source of H3PO4 at $50/gallon:
http://www.interstateproducts.com/1_step_rust_killer_pricing.htm

Here's a source of "Aqua Mix Phosphoric Acid Cleaner Substitute"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GFT65O/104-2624253-4972718
The MSDS says it's Urea, monohydrochloride 7-13%
http://www.ptsaquamix.com/index.php?page=Product.Product&externalId=487
Hmm. I wonder if peeing will work on the rust!

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:41:04 +0000, Tegger wrote:

> There's a better alternative these days: EvapoRust.

Googling, I find a recommendation at, of all places, "The Rust Store":
http://www.theruststore.com/Hand-Tool-Rust-Removal-W13C2.aspx

The MSDS for Evapo-Rust says absolutely nothing about what's in it:
http://www.evaporust.com/docs/MSDS%20Evaporust.pdf

As for how it works:
http://www.evapo-rust.com/howitworks/
Apparently the synthetic chelating agent of Evapo-Rust removes the
iron in iron oxide by creating a ferric sulfate complex, and sometimes
there is a black residue from the carbon in the steel.
http://www.evapo-rust.com/faq/

Googling some more, I find Evapo-Rust is "patent pending" by
Harris International, so if we can find the patent, we can figure
out what that synthetic chelating agent is.

The trademark was apparently registered by Daubert Cromwell, LLC in July 2009.
http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/index.jsp

Googling also found "bio-rust" which may be the same thing.
http://www.walter.com/PortalBuilder/Sites/walter/Documents/TDS/BioCircle/BIO-RUST_E.pdf

BTW, some say molasses works the same way:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/body/hrdp_0901_rust_removal_guide/viewall.html

Which might be why the patent was apparently NOT GRANTED even though
it was filed in 2000.

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, ChairMan wrote:

> I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks restoration
> recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
> Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

The apple cider and molasses solution doesn't seem to have worked:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/body/hrdp_0901_rust_removal_guide/viewall.html

[harry]

On Feb 22, 11:09 pm, "Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> > I'd try wire brush and WD-40.
>
> So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
> rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.
>
> Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
> tools or just those that have been wire brushed?
>
> Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).
>
> I ask because I never oiled tools before also.
>
> Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
> of oxide?

I always use WD40 on tools when I put them away. Especially ones I use
infrequently.
Good for garden tools too.

[harry]

On Feb 22, 11:45 pm, "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> "Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message
>

> news:kg8tqg$60g$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> >> I'd try wire brush and WD-40.
>
> > So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
> > rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.
>
> > Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
> > tools or just those that have been wire brushed?
>
> > Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).
>
> > I ask because I never oiled tools before also.
>
> > Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
> > of oxide?
>

> Seems that WD-40 is the word of choice for those that don't know any beter.
> Cures moles, colds, and tight buttholes.
>
> Motor oil is fine.  Most any oil will do to keep the rust down.  The oil
> provides a barrier from the tool to the air and water.  There is a product
> made by LPS that is made to help prevent rust.  I think it is called LPS2.
>
> The best way is not to let the tools get wet, and wipe them down every year
> or so if you do not use them very often.

The advantage of WD40 is you can quickly spray all surfaces in
seconds. Even a pile of tools can be sprayed. OK on electric stuff as
well. You can get it into all the crevices and holes easily.

[harry]

Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
or have different names.
However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
especially on stuff like saws.

WD40 is much faster to apply than rubbing on oil.
Some tools are meant to get wet (eg garden spades)
WD40 has worked fine with me for years, just give
stuff a quick waft when I put it away.
I have a 5litre can of the stuff and a manual refillable aerosol.
BTW, WD40 is made in the US.

You can make your own by mixing kerosine and lubricating oil too.


BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

[harry]

Plastic is porous.
BTW why don't you spell it poros?

As in color (which should be colour)

[harry]

On Feb 23, 5:50 am, Oren <O...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan" <nos...@thanks.com>
> wrote:
>

> >Oren <O...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"
> >> <nos...@thanks.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks
> >>> restoration
> >>> recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
> >>> Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything
>
> >> Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!
>
> >Is there any other?<g>
>
> Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him though...
>
> I'd hire him to build  me 1940 Ford coupe,  if I decide. I provide the
> parts.

You're a funny old fashioned guy?

[harry]

No shit?

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:

> BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
> Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle! :)

[Stormin Mormon]

That English phellow sure phinds phalt with every phreaking thing
that us phrugal home repair pholks phinish with.

Christoffer A. Yung
Phind mo bout Jezuz
www.el-dee-ess.borg (Redneck J man of Home Depot)
.

"Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message

news:kg9vq7$fli$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

[THE COLONEL]

"Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kg9vq7$fli$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?

[Arthur Cruz]

THE COLONEL wrote on %D

> What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?

Surface rust from rain perhaps?

[THE COLONEL]

"Arthur Cruz" <ac...@notforspam.com> wrote in message
news:kgat3b$9ll$1...@news.albasani.net...

> THE COLONEL wrote on %D
>
>> What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?
>
> Surface rust from rain perhaps?

Pretty stupid way of puttin' it, pumpkin head.

[C. Portelli]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:25:42 -0800, THE COLONEL wrote:
> What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?

> Pretty stupid way of puttin' it, pumpkin head.

The word "arse" is a wonderful example of "British english",
versus the "American English" three-letter equivalent.

However, your use of the word "hell" should be capitalized.

Moreover, a "pumpkin head" would seem to be a particularly
American English appellation; should you more appropriately
call him a "damson head?"

[Robert Macy]

On Feb 22, 10:02 am, "Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote:
> Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
>  http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12252772/img/12252772.jpg
>
> What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
>  http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12252771/img/12252771.jpg
>
> Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
> Do you use a special formulation?
>
> How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Soak in Brulin's Unicide 256, uncut. Actually will migrate some of the
metal back into metal.

[THE COLONEL]

"C. Portelli" <cpor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5128ff1c$0$18124$afc3...@read01.usenet4all.se...

Thanks for mucking up the entire post here, babbling Burnie; however, I was
thinking about Charlie Brown at the time.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:46:50 -0800 Robert Macy wrote:

> Soak in Brulin's Unicide 256, uncut.
> Actually will migrate some of the metal back

Googling, I find the MSDS over here:
http://brulin.com/cmsassets/file/msds/161042_msd.pdf

10% dimethyl-N-benzylammonium Chloride (CAS 68424-85-1)
5% Didecyldimethylammonium chloride (CAS 7173-51-5)
2.5% Ethyl alcohol

I'll look up how ammonium chloride can remove rust
since I always thought it CREATED rust!

[Oren]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 06:20:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote:

>The MSDS for Lime Away says it's 2.5 to 10% Sulfamic Acid (CAS 5329-14-6).
>http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/LIME-A-WAY-Cleaner-Trigger-US-English.pdf
>
>I have never heard of Sulfamic Acid but Wikipedia says it's used to
>remove rust and lime by converting them to soluble calcium and iron salts.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid
>
>I'm guessing that the phosphoric acid mixes with the lime to create a
>salt which is then washed away by dissolving in water.

I've used Sulfamic tile and grout cleaner. I see now they sell spray
bottles of it.

I used this one.

TileLab Sulfamic Acid Cleaner

SULFAMIC 1 lb pkg

Concentrated crystals that mix with water to make a safe to use, acid
cleaner. Removes cement grout haze, mortar residue and efflorescence
Use on tile or colored grouts . No toxic fumes.

<http://www.amestile.com/upload/accessories/Sealers%20and%20cleaners/sulfamic.jpg>

HD sold last time I checked.

[Oren]

Turn off the water and empty the bowl with an old turkey baster, done.

[alien8er]

On Feb 23, 12:49 am, "Danny D." <dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:
> > BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
> > Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

Give us a few decades; we probably will.

> That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle! :)

Feh. AEU has manhandled it so far.


Dr. Hot"with kid gloves?"Salt

[ChairMan]

Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan"
> <nos...@thanks.com>
> wrote:
>

>> Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"
>>> <nos...@thanks.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of
>>>> Ricks
>>>> restoration
>>>> recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove
>>>> rust.
>>>> Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything
>>>
>>> Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!
>>
>> Is there any other?<g>
>>
>
> Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him
> though...
>
> I'd hire him to build me 1940 Ford coupe, if I decide. I
> provide the
> parts.

He does some nice stuff, including his wife<eg>
I'd like to know what sources he uses to find out how things
actually looked before people f'ed 'em up.
It can't ALL be in his head. My grandson loves that show and
American Pickers.
I'd like to have either one of their jobs, seems like it be
a lot of fun

[Ralph Mowery]

"Ripple Whine" <Rip...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:kg9lr5$7br$1...@solani.org...

> That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.
>
> How do they accomplish that?

Often if you turn off the water supply and put a bucket of water in the
toilet bowl most of the water will go down the drain similar to when you
flush it.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:25:42 -0800, "THE COLONEL"

Are you insisting on a hyfen between the second and thrid words? It's
pretty clear without it.

[Oren]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 12:37:35 -0600, "ChairMan" <nos...@thanks.com>

I'd be guessing, but he likely has a large collection of catalogs for
collectibles and such. Even information from the companies like Coke,
Pepsi or those that make amusement games.

He does have old items sitting out back of his place that he could use
for some references.

[THE COLONEL]

"alien8er" <alie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:53259d2b-2a3f-4b6e...@y2g2000pbg.googlegroups.com...

What the hell is "feh"?

[Oren]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800 (PST), harry
<harry...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur

You cannot spell Yankee, so hush up, child. Ya'll talk funny. I'm not
a Yank either.

We yank the rope when we need too or pull the cord. We do not yank
anything, except a rope.

[Oren]

Sure. Unlike you with a dark cloud on every horizon.

[WW]

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message news:kg97io$sdb$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

On 02/22/2013 03:05 PM, Danny D. wrote:
>
> Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
> hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

HCl is just going to cause rust. I use muriatic to dissolve
galvanizing (for welding), and all of the ferrous objects near the
bottle end up getting very rusty.

Jon

Jon I have found that to be true also. Used muriatic acid in my shop to
remove some alkali from an item and the fumes rusted all the tools nearby..
WW

[nestork]

harry;3018804 Wrote:
>
> Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
> or have different names.
> However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
> I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
> The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
> especially on stuff like saws.
>

I don't know who said that Coca Cola contains phosphoric acid, but
that's not true. If it were, Coca Cola would taste acidic all of the
time, but it doesn't. In fact, it's easy to remove the acidic "bite"
from the taste of Coca Cola.

Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks) contain an acid called
"carbonic acid". They don't actually put carbonic acid in soft drinks.
They only put CO2 into the soft drink and the CO2 dissolves in the soft
drink and combines with H2O to form carbonic acid: CO2 + H2O =
CH2O3, which is carbonic acid.

[image:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Carbonic-acid-2D.svg/100px-Carbonic-acid-2D.svg.png]

Carbonic acid is an inherently unstable molecule and breaks down to form
CO2 and H2O fairly quickly, but as long as there's lots of CO2 dissolved
in water, carbonic acid will form as quickly as it breaks down, and that
water will remain acidic cuz of the carbonic acid in it.

It's the formation of carbonic acid from the CO2 dissolved in the water
that gives Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks, and beer, and all
carbonated (aka: "sparkling") wines their acidic "bite" when you taste
them). To prove that, just leave any carbonated soft drink sitting in a
glass over night to let all the CO2 come out of it. Then when you taste
it, it'll just taste sweet like sugar water and not have any "bite" in
it's taste at all. If there were acid in the soft drink to begin with
it, that acid wouldn't evaporate, and it would still taste acidic, like
vinegar left out in a glass over night.

It's the carbonic acid you swallow breaking down to form CO2 (gas) and
H2O in your stomach that makes you burp after drinking soft drinks, beer
or sparkling wine.

I kinda doubt that the amount of carbonic acid in a soft drink like Coke
would be sufficiently strong to dissolve rust, so I'd stick with
phosphoric acid which does work.




--
nestork

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:04:12 +0000, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:

>
>harry;3018804 Wrote:
>>
>> Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
>> or have different names.
>> However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
>> I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
>> The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
>> especially on stuff like saws.
>>
>
>I don't know who said that Coca Cola contains phosphoric acid, but
>that's not true. If it were, Coca Cola would taste acidic all of the
>time, but it doesn't. In fact, it's easy to remove the acidic "bite"
>from the taste of Coca Cola.

Wrong.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_phosphoric_acid_is_in_a_can_of_Coke
http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/5402/is-the-amount-of-phosphoric-acid-added-to-colas-enough-to-disrupt-the-function-o


When you start with a false statement, nothing that follows is worth
reading.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Or once in a while, a stupid Brit.

[harry]

If you tell me you are "Sat on your ass", I don't know whether you
are an idle fellow or the owner of a donkey.

[harry]

I meant funny/peculiar not funny/haha!

[harry]

On Feb 23, 10:04 pm, nestork <nestork.b6f2...@diybanter.com> wrote:
> harry;3018804 Wrote:
>
>
>
> > Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
> > or have different names.
> > However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
> > I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
> > The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
> > especially on stuff like saws.
>
> I don't know who said that Coca Cola contains phosphoric acid, but
> that's not true.  If it were, Coca Cola would taste acidic all of the
> time, but it doesn't.  In fact, it's easy to remove the acidic "bite"
> from the taste of Coca Cola.
>
> Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks) contain an acid called
> "carbonic acid".  They don't actually put carbonic acid in soft drinks.
> They only put CO2 into the soft drink and the CO2 dissolves in the soft
> drink and combines with H2O to form carbonic acid:     CO2 + H2O =
> CH2O3, which is carbonic acid.
>

> [image:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Carbonic-aci...]

>
> Carbonic acid is an inherently unstable molecule and breaks down to form
> CO2 and H2O fairly quickly, but as long as there's lots of CO2 dissolved
> in water, carbonic acid will form as quickly as it breaks down, and that
> water will remain acidic cuz of the carbonic acid in it.
>
> It's the formation of carbonic acid from the CO2 dissolved in the water
> that gives Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks, and beer, and all
> carbonated (aka: "sparkling") wines their acidic "bite" when you taste
> them).  To prove that, just leave any carbonated soft drink sitting in a
> glass over night to let all the CO2 come out of it.  Then when you taste
> it, it'll just taste sweet like sugar water and not have any "bite" in
> it's taste at all.  If there were acid in the soft drink to begin with
> it, that acid wouldn't evaporate, and it would still taste acidic, like
> vinegar left out in a glass over night.
>
> It's the carbonic acid you swallow breaking down to form CO2 (gas) and
> H2O in your stomach that makes you burp after drinking soft drinks, beer
> or sparkling wine.
>
> I kinda doubt that the amount of carbonic acid in a soft drink like Coke
> would be sufficiently strong to dissolve rust, so I'd stick with
> phosphoric acid which does work.
>
> --
> nestork

Bit here on the topic. Used as food/colas additive and as a rust
remover.
Apparently there are different sorts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid#Uses

Another good reason not to drink Coca Cola.

Naval jelly and Coke are the same thing.

Also
http://frontview.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/coca-cola-phosphoric-acid-cocaine-2/

[Robert Macy]

If you drop a penny into the liquid [remove any oil films] in about 30
seconds it's shiny like new.

[Doug]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 06:44:45 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dan...@notyahoo.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:08:47 -0600, Doug wrote:
>
>> Just in case, is naval jelly sold in hardware stores?
>
>Today I bought 16 fluid oz (about half a liter) of Naval Jelly at
>Home Depot (in the paint department) for about $7.
>
>Here is the URL to the same stuff (which is about 25% phosphoric acid):
>http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-16-fl-oz-Naval-Jelly-Rust-Dissolver-Bottle-553472/203009241
>
>ACE Hardware also has it in stock for less than $10 a bottle.
>
>Looking up sources of phosphoric acid, I see I can also buy 85% H3PO4
>at about $13/Liter or $40/gallon (which makes a ton of naval jelly).
> http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=phosphoric&affiliate_pro_tracking_id=17:30:
>
>Here is another source of H3PO4 at $50/gallon:
> http://www.interstateproducts.com/1_step_rust_killer_pricing.htm
>
>Here's a source of "Aqua Mix Phosphoric Acid Cleaner Substitute"
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GFT65O/104-2624253-4972718
> The MSDS says it's Urea, monohydrochloride 7-13%
> http://www.ptsaquamix.com/index.php?page=Product.Product&externalId=487
> Hmm. I wonder if peeing will work on the rust!


Not sure but thanks Danny for the info !!

[nestork]

harry;3019314 Wrote:
>
> Bit here on the topic. Used as food/colas additive and as a rust
> remover.
> Apparently there are different sorts.

> 'Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid#Uses)

>
> Another good reason not to drink Coca Cola.
>
> Naval jelly and Coke are the same thing.
>
> Also

> 'Coca-Cola: Phosphoric Acid | Frontview' (http://tinyurl.com/azcurk6)

>
> I contacted coke about this and here is what they said:
>
> A 250 mL serving of Coca-Cola Classic contains 45 mg of
> phosphorus.&#65533; The amount of phosphoric acid is
> proprietary.&#65533;
>
> Looked at another way, there are 18 mg of phosphorus per 100 ml. in
> Coca-Cola Classic.&#65533; This is equivalent to the amount of
> phosphorus, for example, in orange juice and considerably less than in
> milk, cheese, and bread.&#65533;Proportionately, meat products have more
> phosphorus than any other food.&#65533; In fact, the phosphorus in cola
> beverages contributes 3% or less of the total dietary intake of
> phosphorus.
>

I have no idea how much phosphorus there is in Coke, but phosphorus and
phsphoric acid are not the same thing just like carbon and carbon
dioxide are not the same thing. And, of course, a ml of water weighs
very close to one gram, so in approximately 100 grams of Coca-Cola,
there are 18 milligrams of phosphorus, or about eighteen one thousandths
of one percent, which is a TRACE amount, hardly the primary ingredient.

>
> 9. The active ingredient in Coke is phosphoric acid. Its pH is 2.8.
>

No, the active ingredients in Coke are sugar and caffeine. If
phosphoric acid was the active ingredient in Coke, people who like
drinking Coke would enjoy drinking phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner
diluted with water.

Think with your own head... that's why God saw fit to give you a head.
Leave a glass of Coke and some phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner
sitting over night and taste the Coke in the morning. I won't taste
acidic at all. So, where did the phosphoric acid go to? The phosphoric
acid toilet bowl cleaner will still taste the same and behave exactly
the same in every respect as it did before.

The acidic "bite" in the taste of all soft drinks, beer, sparkling wines
and soda water is due to carbonic acid. That acidity in the taste
disappears as the CO2 dissipates from the beverage. That's why soft
drinks go "flat" if left open too long.

Phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner doesn't get weaker if left out
overnight.

> Naval jelly and Coke are the same thing.

Bullchit. Naval jelly contains significant amounts of phosphoric acid.
Coke does not.




--
nestork

[k...@attt.bizz]

Primary? No, but it *IS* added to Coke (and Pepsi). IOW, you're
wrong.

>>
>> 9. The active ingredient in Coke is phosphoric acid. Its pH is 2.8.
>>
>
>No, the active ingredients in Coke are sugar and caffeine. If
>phosphoric acid was the active ingredient in Coke, people who like
>drinking Coke would enjoy drinking phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner
>diluted with water.

What a stupid statement. Phosphoric acid is put there for a reason. It
enhances the flavor.

>Think with your own head... that's why God saw fit to give you a head.

You must have been sleeping late that day, however.

You're *WRONG*.
<more asinine arguments snipped>

[Oren]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:52:43 -0800 (PST), harry
<harry...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Naval jelly and Coke are the same thing

Depends on the application of the product. In this case for the OP,
naval jelly is the tool of choice.

Coke will clean windshields and chrome bumpers on vehicles.

[nestork]

k...@attt.bizz;3019843 Wrote:
> What a stupid statement. Phosphoric acid is put there for a reason. It
> enhances the flavor.
>

'snopes.com: Coca-Cola Acids' (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp)

The 2 to 3 tenths of 1 percent phosphoric acid quoted in that Snopes web
page is what's in the syrup, not in the soft drink.

Assuming a mix ratio of 5:1, one gallon of syrup will make 6 gallons of
soft drink.
'How many glasses of soda does a 5 gallon bag in a box syrup yield if
each glass is 16oz? - Yahoo! Answers'
(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100202061102AAAMnJf)

That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

Coca Cola can hardly be used as a substitute for phosphoric acid because
it supposedly "contains phosphoric acid".




--
nestork

[harry]

Nearly all cheap soft drinks contain phosphoric acid because it is a
cheap substitute for citric acid.
Phosphoric acid can be manufactured cheaply to put in junk products
like Coca Cola.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid#Food_additive

I infer you drink/feed your kids on a lot of this shit.
You need to give up and have a proper diet.

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

On 2/23/2013 3:49 AM, Danny D. wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:
> > BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
> > Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

"Sulfur" isn't Greek. "Phosphor" is.

¬R

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:14:10 +0000, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:

>
>k...@attt.bizz;3019843 Wrote:
>> What a stupid statement. Phosphoric acid is put there for a reason. It
>> enhances the flavor.
>>
>
>'snopes.com: Coca-Cola Acids' (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp)
>
>The 2 to 3 tenths of 1 percent phosphoric acid quoted in that Snopes web
>page is what's in the syrup, not in the soft drink.

...and it gets taken out of the syrup before it goes in the soft
drink? Did you actually think about what you wrote? (I know,
impossible)

>Assuming a mix ratio of 5:1, one gallon of syrup will make 6 gallons of
>soft drink.
>'How many glasses of soda does a 5 gallon bag in a box syrup yield if
>each glass is 16oz? - Yahoo! Answers'
>(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100202061102AAAMnJf)
>
>That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
>about 5 one hundredths of one percent.
>
>Coca Cola can hardly be used as a substitute for phosphoric acid because
>it supposedly "contains phosphoric acid".

That fact is that you are *WRONG*. You can admit it now.

[nestork]

harry;3020197 Wrote:
>
> I infer you drink/feed your kids on a lot of this ****.

> You need to give up and have a proper diet.

[image:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BDysdKuiN_0/S4V-e1LJ_HI/AAAAAAAAAQM/T4XFYOlxi5Y/s320/confused+Bush.jpg]
H U N H ?




--
nestork

[nestork]

k...@attt.bizz;3020466 Wrote:
> That fact is that you are *WRONG*. You can admit it now.

I didn't do it.
Nobody saw nothing.
You can't prove a thing.




--
nestork

[Oren]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 21:52:42 +0000, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:

>I didn't do it.
>Nobody saw nothing.
>You can't prove a thing.

Sincerely,

/s/

Barack Obama

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:14:10 +0000 nestork wrote:

> That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
> about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

While I could have bought 85% phosphoric acid for less,
I simply went to Home Depot and bought the Naval Jelly.

Here is the picture of some of the newly rusted tools before
being pinked:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12287169/img/12287169.jpg

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:14:10 +0000 nestork wrote:

> That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
> about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:14:10 +0000 nestork wrote:

> That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
> about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

> Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
> http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12252772/img/12252772.jpg
>
> What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12252771/img/12252771.jpg

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:35:58 -0800, Oren wrote:
> ... for the OP, naval jelly is the tool of choice.

UPDATE:
Thanks everyone for the advice on the phosphoric acid.

Here is a before picture of some of the newly rusted tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12287169/img/12287169.jpg

The pink slime was muuuuch more gloppy than I had expected:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12287553/img/12287553.jpg

The metal turned black and was washed off in a bucket:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12287531/img/12287531.jpg

Then it was dried before applying motor oil to the metal:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12287582/img/12287582.jpg

In hindsight, the rust-spotted chrome worked the best, and
the prybar steel worked worst - with the saw blades fairing
rather poorly with respect to restoring the original surface:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12287597/img/12287597.jpg

Within minutes of drying, a white "lard" formed on the tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12287619/img/12287619.jpg

Nobody had mentioned that white lard. Any idea what it is?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12287630/img/12287630.jpg

[Danny D.]

[Danny D.]

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:28:25 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

Jesus. Something is wrong (again) with aioe.org because it just hung
and hung.

I see, belatedly, it posted three times!

Sorry about that.

Note: This may post 3 times also (so I will refrain from posting
if that happens). I hope aioe can fix themselves soon if that's the case.

[Danny D.]