installing 15 amp cabinet lights into a 20 amp circuit

[car13]

Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

Thanks!

[Ralph Mowery]

"car13" <car...@google.com> wrote in message
news:1c8b333c-97af-49a4...@googlegroups.com...

It should be as safe as any lights. Hopefully the built in transformer will
have a fuse internal to it rated for the lights.

[Don Y]

Two different issues, here.

First, neither the lights nor the circuit will care. The circuit can
more than adequately supply the load. And, the lights don't care
where their ~15W of power come from (as long as there are no
YELLOW electrons involved! Damn pesky things... :> )

But, your reference to "behind an existing 20A outlet" suggests you want
to hard-wire them to one of the two GFCI counter-top branch circuits
intended for use in a kitchen. There, you run afoul of code as you
are now installing a fixed load (albeit small) that defeats the
purpose of having "two 20A GFCI circuits for SMALL APPLIANCES"

[I.e., why not connect the refrigerator there, as well? Ans: don't!]

[trader_4]

IDK exactly what "behind an existing 20A outlet really means", but as
far as the code goes, I think you probably have a point regarding code
and connecting it to one of the 20A appliance circuits, which are supposed
to be only for plug-in appliances. However, it
is perfectly safe and for just 14W worth of LED lights, I know what I'd do.....
Unless some other circuit is easily available, of course.

[DerbyDad03]

re: "Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"

If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much
light. ;-)

What do you mean by "behind an outlet"?

[Jon Danniken]

He means wiring them into the wire nuts behind a regular outlet, ie not
wiring them to a plug that is plugged into the outlet.

Jon

[car...@google.com]

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

[DerbyDad03]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, car...@google.com wrote:
> Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

In that case...

Safe? Probably. Code? Probably not.

See trader_4's response for the reason.

[Micky]

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), car...@google.com wrote:

>Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

[Don Y]

On 2/22/2016 7:33 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> Trader is right about the code. I don't see a huge problem but it is
> not really legal. If you have a general lighting circuit in there that
> would be the one to use and you can even make a case that it is legal
> on with the dish washer or disposal. Not the fridge

We ran a separate drop off the lighting circuit feeding a pair of
wall switches. The wall switches, in turn, feed two halves of a split
duplex receptacle located above the sink (behind the sconce -- if
that's what it's called?). There, installed a pair of power supplies
the outputs of which then are routed down through the walls to connect
to the under-cabinet light strips.

In this way, we can service the power supplies, adjust intensity, replace
them, etc. without having to worry about "will it physically fit" at
some future date. And, puts the switches controlling them in a comparable
place as the other light switches for the room.

[considered "remoting" the intensity control but figured we could
probably live with one setting. currently set for "workspace lighting",
i.e. bright. If we later decided we wanted to use them as a dim sort
of nightlight, we'd tweek that setting]

[DerbyDad03]

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer. The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues, perhaps
because of aesthetics.

[Micky]

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:53:42 -0800 (PST), car13 <car...@google.com>
wrote:

>Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).
>
>The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads

I missed this part. Bare leads or not, buy a plug and connect it to
the leads. You probably need a plug with screw connectors. Do they
still sell the small 2-prong ones?

Yeah, but nowhere near as many styles as before:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Double-Pole-Flat-Plug-Black-R55-48643-0DE/202077705
and maybe these two
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-125-Volt-Light-Duty-Plug-R52-00101-0WP/100356964
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-10-Amp-2-Pole-Straight-Blade-Plug-White-R52-00123-00W/202077684
but the video in all 3 cases is unrelated to the plug, so I can't tell
if either of these have screws inside. Probably not. Forget I
mentioned them. And if it says Quick in the name, probably won't work
either.

It's good to save the cords from things one throws away, so you can
solder a plug and a few inches of cord onto bare wires or when a plug
fails. I have a box of 20 of these already, in various colors.

> intended to be hardwired inside the wall,

Maybe. But maybe meant to be sold in Europe too so they dont' know
what plug to put on the end.

> and a remote switch.
>
>Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V".

This sort of contradicts that idea, but I still can't imagine selling
something that requires wires coming out of the wall beside or through
the wall plate. I've done that with my TV co-ax, with my bathroom
speaker wires, and with an telephone extension flashing light (for
when the bell is off but I'm awake, so I'll know the phone is
ringing.) I certainly wouldn't do it with 110V.

> The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

IOW max 0.6 amps output.

FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.

**Twice would mean only 50% efficiency, and transformers are better
than that.

>Thanks!

[Micky]

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), car...@google.com wrote:
>>
>> >Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).
>>
>> No you may not do that.
>>
>> Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
>> duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
>> pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.
>>
>> These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
>> appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
>> if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.
>
>He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

> The wires
>might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

> perhaps
>because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

[Micky]

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:27:55 -0500, Micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be?

I partly take this back. The big rubber plugs that go on industrial
extensions cords would look bad almost anywhere -- I agree --
and those are still easy to get. I guess if that is all there were,
that's what I'd use. But HD still sells one model that's small.

And I've been planning ahead so I have extra plugs, that I bought to
be sure of having one when I need it; I have two really thin plugs
meant to go behind a dresser, so they're less than 1/2" thick, with
the wire coming out of the side**; I have the cords with plugs
permanently attached: and before I throw anything in the trash, I take
the cord, or the plug if it unscrews. I'm hoping to go to Guatemala
within a couple years, and I think I'll see what they sell. I like
shopping for hardware when I'm out of the country, if there's
something I need.

**I'm saving these for where space is a problem, but if needed I could
use them elsewhere and just remember where I'm using them in case I
actually do need thin ones. They dont use screws, just metal prongs,
but they work with standard lamp cord (which is also becoming less
common.)

[Paint...@unlisted.moo]

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:32:17 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>
>re: "Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"
>
>If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much
>light. ;-)

They will light the space inside the wall, between the 2 studs on each
side of that outlet. Maybe he could then put a glass block or two into
that wall so the light can be seen.

[DerbyDad03]

I know you took this back later (partly), but even to have made this comment
in the first place was almost enough to make me realize that this conversation
probably isn't worth having with you. However, I'll use it as teaching
moment.

Kitchens are often the most important room in the house and some people
put more money into the blending of aesthetics and functionality in a
kitchen than they do in any other room.

> How bad can a plug be?

Going back to the aesthetics issue, you have no idea what the wires on the
transformer look like. What if they look like this?

http://cdn.instructables.com/FQT/ORX7/GVOW55S5/FQTORX7GVOW55S5.LARGE.jpg

Are you just going to put a plug on these wires? I hope not, but since
kitchen aesthetics don't matter to you, maybe you would.

As far as extending the bare lead wires with a spare cord, where would
store the connections? The wires nuts would have to go in a junction box.
After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
junction box so you can plug it in?

> Or a
> 6-in-1? What's your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

[trader_4]

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first
post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle. That may
be a code violation, because current code requires 20A circuits for
appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it.
But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity,
so I could live with it.

I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for
receptacles is relatively new. If he has an older house, not subject
to that at the time, IDK if it really is a code violation, ie what says
that he can't tap into an existing circuit? He's adding an LED, not adding
counter receptacles.

[trader_4]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:24:31 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

>
> This sort of contradicts that idea, but I still can't imagine selling
> something that requires wires coming out of the wall beside or through
> the wall plate.

I can pretty much guarantee that the install instructions don't say
to do it that way. The correct way would be to wire it into a
junction box and I would hope that's what the instructions would say.

I've done that with my TV co-ax, with my bathroom
> speaker wires, and with an telephone extension flashing light (for
> when the bell is off but I'm awake, so I'll know the phone is
> ringing.) I certainly wouldn't do it with 110V.
>
> > The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"
>
> IOW max 0.6 amps output.
>
> FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
> twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
> other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.
>

Wrong concept here. What you look at is *power* on both sides.
The secondary is 15W, that means ideally, the primary is 15W,
giving a current of 125ma at 120V. It will be a bit more than
that because of losses, but that's the conversion concept.

Using your method, a battery charger that supplies 25A, would be
pulling less than 50A? It sure would be less than 50A, because it's
on the order of 2.5A @ 120V

> **Twice would mean only 50% efficiency, and transformers are better
> than that.
>

See above. You're using equal currents on both sides, when it's
actually equal power.

[DerbyDad03]

I'm still trying to picture how that would be done from a physical
perspective. Assuming the GFCI is in a standard receptacle box, the
connections would need to made inside the wall and inside the box.

I guess I'd like to see his "bare lead" transformer, but if it's similar
to the one that I linked to, it has to be mounted someplace and then
the wires have to somehow have to pass through the wall and into the
receptacle box. It sounds like flush mount junction box would be required
to accept the wires from the transformer (with a proper fitting of course)
and then Romex would need to be run from that junction box to the
receptacle box.

Perhaps there is an existing (remote) junction box for the receptacle
circuit that could be used, but then the wires need to be run from
the transformer back to the fixture itself.

It seems like we are adding more complexity, and therefore possibly more
code issues, than just using an existing lighting circuit or even new
circuit if need be (and possible).

Am I missing something simple on the "physical installation" front?

[trader_4]

I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

[DerbyDad03]

But he specifically said:

"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I thought that we discussing his exact situation, not a situation where a
plug in type transformer is present.

OK, so his transformer isn't like the freestanding one that I linked to, but
it sure sounds like that style of transformer is inside the fixture. Bottom
line is that he has 2 bare wires that he has to attach to a 110VAC source.

[Stormin Mormon]

15 amps of lights, on a 20 amp circuit. Does
not leave much capacity for other devices
which might be plugged in.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

[trader_4]

Well, in the previous post did include the wire in type too,
but it wasn't one where the transformer is part of a panel.
I missed that part. One would think that such a product
would either have a junction box that's part of it or else
be made to mount on a box like a light fixture would.
Neither would seem suited to using it for cabinet
lighting. Which is probably why the ones I've seen have
been like the ones I described.

> OK, so his transformer isn't like the freestanding one that I linked to, but
> it sure sounds like that style of transformer is inside the fixture. Bottom
> line is that he has 2 bare wires that he has to attach to a 110VAC source.

We really need a pic of the actual unit to see what it actually is.

[Micky]

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 05:27:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:24:31 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

>...

>> > The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"
>>
>> IOW max 0.6 amps output.
>>
>> FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
>> twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
>> other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.
>>
>
>Wrong concept here.

Not wrong concept but a calculation that didn't match my concept.
Thanks for the correction,

[trader_4]

What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.

[Micky]

For the record, FWIW, I was really just asking Derby because he got my
goat.

>post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle. That may
>be a code violation, because current code requires 20A circuits for

If it's against code, I'm not counting it as an alternative.

We're talking about a wire coming straight out of the wall, from an
opening in a junction box within the wall, aren't we? How could that
not be a code violation?

>appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it.
>But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity,
>so I could live with it.
>
>I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for

In your other reply to me, iiuc in place of a wire coming out of the
wall, from a junction box within the wall, you were suggesting a
surface mount junction box. I think that would be less aethetically
pleasing than a plug on a wire.

[Micky]

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 04:40:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), car...@google.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).
>> >>
>> >> No you may not do that.
>> >>
>> >> Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
>> >> duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
>> >> pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.
>> >>
>> >> These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
>> >> appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
>> >> if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.
>> >
>> >He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.
>>
>> Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
>> his first post again.
>>
>> > The wires
>> >might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,
>>
>> What phyical issues could those be?
>>
>> > perhaps
>> >because of aesthetics.
>>
>> It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics.
>
>I know you took this back later (partly),

Twice. Once in the next two words and once in the follow-up post.

To be honest, "Screw aesthetics" was directed to you, not the OP. I
know he's not going to ignore aesthetics and I wouldn't either, but
you got my goat with the absurd implication that a plug on the end of
a wire could be unaesthetic, based perhaps on the absurd idea that a
wire he would find** on his transformer could be too ugly for a plug.
Most people with kitchens have things with plugs plugged in, the
toaster, the blender, a George Foreman grill, a radio, a tv, a
microwave, a Mixmaster, one or more device chargers, and maybe other
things (an electric rotisserie?). Putting a plug on his cord will
not detract from the appearance of the kitchen.

**An industrial strength extension cord would look bad plugged into a
kitchen outlet, but you won't find that on a 25 watt device.

> but even to have made this comment
>in the first place was almost enough to make me realize that this conversation
>probably isn't worth having with you. However, I'll use it as teaching
>moment.
>
>Kitchens are often the most important room in the house and some people
>put more money into the blending of aesthetics and functionality in a
>kitchen than they do in any other room.
>
>> How bad can a plug be?
>
>Going back to the aesthetics issue, you have no idea what the wires on the
>transformer look like. What if they look like this?
>
>http://cdn.instructables.com/FQT/ORX7/GVOW55S5/FQTORX7GVOW55S5.LARGE.jpg

What's wrong with them? I'd put on the plug whose url I gave in the
other post (in reply to his first post). If that didn't leave a long
enough wire to mount the box somewhere decent, like under the cabinets
hidden by the cabinet skirt (where I have my extra light) I'd add some
wire too.

>Are you just going to put a plug on these wires? I hope not, but since
>kitchen aesthetics don't matter to you, maybe you would.
>
>As far as extending the bare lead wires with a spare cord, where would
>store the connections?

What connections?

> The wires nuts

What wire nuts? If the wire is not long enough, I'd solder more wire
to it, with the connections offset from each other so there is no
chance of shorting and so the bulge would be smaller, though longer.

> would have to go in a junction box.
>After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
>junction box so you can plug it in?

What junction box?

>> Or a
>> 6-in-1? What's your alternative?
>
>My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
>planning the project.

That's a total non-answer. What is your alternative?

[trader_4]

The OP didn't say that was how he was going to do it. It wasn't clear
what he was going to do, unless you're a mind reader:

"Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"

The possible code violation I was addressing was the issue that Don
brought up. Current code requires dedicated 20A circuits for kitchen
appliances. If it's a circuit that was subject to that, then according
to Don, adding some other wired in load is not code compliant. And I
think he's probably right, but I'm not going to go look it up.

> >appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it.
> >But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity,
> >so I could live with it.
> >
> >I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for
>
> In your other reply to me, iiuc in place of a wire coming out of the
> wall, from a junction box within the wall, you were suggesting a
> surface mount junction box. I think that would be less aethetically
> pleasing than a plug on a wire.
>

I never suggested a surface mount junction box.

If you want another solution, how about finding one of the many
other LED alternatives that have transformers that you can plug
in? Or at least a transformer that is separate from the led fixture?

[Paint...@unlisted.moo]

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:53:42 -0800 (PST), car13 <car...@google.com>
wrote:

>The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads

I really hope those "Bare Leads" are really insulated wire!!!
Otherwise there could be a serious fire hazzard as code violation!

[DerbyDad03]

Why do you consider that an absurd implication? He specifically said:

"with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall"

not

"with bare leads intended to have a plug attached"

Neither of us know what those "bare leads" look like, but I'm leaning
towards them *not* looking like the cord on my KitchenAid Artisan stand
mixer. Since he said the leads were "intended to be hardwired inside the
wall" we can be pretty sure that they did not use an appliance cord, because
appliance cords are not intended to be hardwired inside the wall.

Of course, his description could be wrong. Neither of us know, therefore
my "implication" is no more absurd than your idea of just soldering on
cord with a plug.

A picture would, as always, be helpful.

> Most people with kitchens have things with plugs plugged in, the
> toaster, the blender, a George Foreman grill, a radio, a tv, a
> microwave, a Mixmaster, one or more device chargers, and maybe other
> things (an electric rotisserie?). Putting a plug on his cord will
> not detract from the appearance of the kitchen.

You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like. Again, based on his use of the
words "intended to be hardwired inside the wall" I lean away from the simple
attachment of a plug being aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it may not
even be to code.

It's obvious that you are picturing a totally different set of leads coming
out the device than I am.

Once again, a picture would be, as always, helpful.

>
> >> Or a
> >> 6-in-1? What's your alternative?
> >
> >My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
> >planning the project.
>
> That's a total non-answer. What is your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

That is the only answer I can give until I know what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" actually look like. In the end, that will
still be answer, but it will probably have some more details added once I
know what he is working with.

[Stormin Mormon]

The subject of this thread is a 15 amp cabinet lights.

THAT 15 amps.

[Oren]

... you owe me big time friend.

Standing it line for an hour to "cockus". Three minutes to cast my
selection on a paper ballot. We need to go back to the primary before
2008 change and vote electronically. I could vote and be gone in 10
minutes at my precinct. Shish.

When I signed your tax referendum, twenty minutes to find out anybody
that could give it to me -- I was the first one to sign it. Are people
paying attention or what?

I had to stand beside Donald Trump, Jr. too, while I waited for the
petition to be found and listen to 30-50 seconds of his speech of how
great his amazing father is. Looked like he had one of those $800
hair cuts for cripes sake. Shish.

P.S. you can help vote against that stinking Bllomberg gun initiative
in June, please.

Oh, the misery I suffered tonight :-)

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 6:32:00 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> On 2/23/2016 12:19 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 11:13:52 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> >> 15 amps of lights, on a 20 amp circuit. Does
> >> not leave much capacity for other devices
> >> which might be plugged in.
> >>
> >> --
> >> .
> >> Christopher A. Young
> >> learn more about Jesus
> >> . www.lds.org
> >> .
> >> .
> >
> >
> > What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.
> >
>
> The subject of this thread is a 15 amp cabinet lights.
>
> THAT 15 amps.
>
> --

Yes, you're right. Funny no one else commented on that. IDK what
that's all about.

[trader_4]

If we could just ban the use of the words "amazing" and "tremendous"
we could shut up the whole Trump family. I was watching Donald give
a 2 min interview and he used one 3 times, the other twice.

[DerbyDad03]

Guys...please.

It would be "amazing" and "tremendous" if we could limit the discussion
in this thread to the installation of the LED fixture.

[hah]

On 02/23/2016 05:32 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

[snip]

> What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.
>>
>
> The subject of this thread is a 15 amp cabinet lights.
>
> THAT 15 amps.
>

So you have a 1800 watt (15A * 120V) light. Maybe it's a warming cabinet
(to keep food warm). Put in a dedicated circuit for that.

--
"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for His reputation
if He didn't." -- Jules Renard

[Micky]

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:58:34 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

This is all so silly since he could solve most of this by posting back
and addressing our questions, implied and explicit.

But I took "intended" to refer to a drawing or instructions that came
with the light and nothing to do with the wires' actual appearance. If
you consider that possibility, we might have opinions closer to each
other than they are now.

>Of course, his description could be wrong. Neither of us know, therefore
>my "implication" is no more absurd than your idea of just soldering on
>cord with a plug.
>
>A picture would, as always, be helpful.

True.

>
>> Most people with kitchens have things with plugs plugged in, the
>> toaster, the blender, a George Foreman grill, a radio, a tv, a
>> microwave, a Mixmaster, one or more device chargers, and maybe other
>> things (an electric rotisserie?). Putting a plug on his cord will
>> not detract from the appearance of the kitchen.
>
>You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
>to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.

Well, they don't look like alligators. They look like wires.

>Again, based on his use of the
>words "intended to be hardwired inside the wall" I lean away from the simple
>attachment of a plug being aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it may not
>even be to code.

What in the code prevents connecting two 14, 16, or 18 gauge wires to
a plug?
..........

>>
>> > would have to go in a junction box.
>> >After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
>> >junction box so you can plug it in?
>>
>> What junction box?
>
>It's obvious that you are picturing a totally different set of leads coming
>out the device than I am.
>
>Once again, a picture would be, as always, helpful.
>
>>
>> >> Or a
>> >> 6-in-1? What's your alternative?
>> >
>> >My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
>> >planning the project.
>>
>> That's a total non-answer. What is your alternative?
>
>My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
>planning the project.

So as yet, you don't have an alternative.

[DerbyDad03]

True. They might even look like the wires that come with a bathroom fan.
3 loose wires (18g?) one black, one white, one green. Maybe it's a short
run of Romex. Do you feel that putting a plug on those types of wires
"will not detract from the appearance of the kitchen?"

If you think that either of those will be an OK look, then we have nothing
further to discuss. If you agree with me that that that would not be aesthetically pleasing, then I repeat:

You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.

>

> >Again, based on his use of the
> >words "intended to be hardwired inside the wall" I lean away from the simple
> >attachment of a plug being aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it may not
> >even be to code.
>
> What in the code prevents connecting two 14, 16, or 18 gauge wires to
> a plug?

I don't know. That's why I said *may*. You keep making statements based on
your assumptions of what he is dealing with and I keep leaving it wide open
until we know the details. You have no clue what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like, yet you keep saying things like
"Put a plug on them! Solder on longer wires! It'll be beautiful! It will
meet code!"

That make no sense.

> ..........
> >>
> >> > would have to go in a junction box.
> >> >After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
> >> >junction box so you can plug it in?
> >>
> >> What junction box?
> >
> >It's obvious that you are picturing a totally different set of leads coming
> >out the device than I am.
> >
> >Once again, a picture would be, as always, helpful.
> >
> >>
> >> >> Or a
> >> >> 6-in-1? What's your alternative?
> >> >
> >> >My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
> >> >planning the project.
> >>
> >> That's a total non-answer. What is your alternative?
> >
> >My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
> >planning the project.
>
> So as yet, you don't have an alternative.
> >
> >That is the only answer I can give until I know what the "bare leads intended
> >to be hardwired inside the wall" actually look like. In the end, that will
> >still be answer, but it will probably have some more details added once I
> >know what he is working with.

As I said before, I'm not going to jump to a detail explanation of an
alternative until I have all of the facts. My stated alternative covers
the general situation based on the facts known at this time. To code and
aesthetically pleasing.

[car...@google.com]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")
- The outlet on the left is the one I would like to use to power the panel
- The remote switch

http://imgur.com/37gQ508
This cross section diagram is my attempt to show what I want to do.
- The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?) onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall. This is what I mean't by "behind an existing 20amp outlet".
- The orange circles show the connection (splice?) points

Other points of clarification
- The LED panel does not consume 15amps. I can't find the specs in any documentation, but it may or may not be "rated for 15amp circuits".
- The LED panel has output specs of 24V, max 14.7W.
- The LED panel input spec only says "120V". But, in some other documents, I found a spec that says "Power: 5.3W". Not sure what that means.
- I don't want to attach a plug to the cable and plug it into the outlet from the outside.

[Tekkie®]

car...@google.com posted for all of us...

>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.
>
> Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.
>
> http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
> This image shows the following:
> - The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")

You have to run those 129v leads into some kind of jbox. The jbox must be
fed. The jbox cannot be inside the wall but it can be mounted creatively.

J ad a detailed reply written but the power went out so others can look at
your pix and help guide you. I would just use a plug to an existing outlet.

--
Tekkie

[trader_4]

I'd wire it in as you suggested. As long as the connections are
inside the box the receptacle is in and the max number of wires,
ie fill of the box isn't exceeded, I don't see a problem with it.

[car...@google.com]

More clarification:

The LED panel is definitely rated for a 15amp circuit. Basically, I am not sure if it is ok to run it on a 20amp circuit, and with the wiring method I drew in the diagram.

My questions were:
1) Is it to code?
2) Is it safe?
3) If I wire it to the 20A circuit, does that mean I'm supplying 120V 20A to it?
4) What happens if I supply 20A, when it's only rated to receive up to 15A?

[Micky]

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 05:24:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 6:32:00 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>> On 2/23/2016 12:19 PM, trader_4 wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 11:13:52 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>> >> 15 amps of lights, on a 20 amp circuit. Does
>> >> not leave much capacity for other devices
>> >> which might be plugged in.

>> >> .
>> >> Christopher A. Young

>
>> > What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.
>> >
>> The subject of this thread is a 15 amp cabinet lights.
>>
>> THAT 15 amps.
>>

>Yes, you're right. Funny no one else commented on that. IDK what
>that's all about.

I don't read subject lines. Don't know about everyone else.

[mike]

There's nothing technically wrong with what you are trying to do.
But, there are LEGAL issues.
I use the term "LEGAL" not because I can point to a statute.
You may end up in court if someone is hurt or your house burns down.

Depending on where you live, there are codes and standards with which you
must comply.
I'm not an electrician and what I'm about to say may not use the correct
terms or be precisely correct, but you'll get the gist...

If your fuse/breaker is 20A, EVERYTHING in the walls has to be able to
handle that current. In the USA, that typically means 12 gauge wire
of a type approved for that purpose.

You can't just "splice" wires in the wall. You have to put the splices
in an approved electrical box using approved splicing methods.

Normally, you'd add a new electrical box at the light and run a wire
all the way to the existing outlet box and put splices inside each box.
You'd have to get an electrical permit and have the work inspected when
done.

Depending on where you live, your transgression may never
be discovered and enforcement may be non-existent.
May not be a problem until you try to sell the house and are
required to bring the electrical up to code.
But, if anybody ever gets hurt, even after you sell the house,
the ambulance-chasers might
have a field day assigning guilt.

I have several projects I'd like to do where the cost of doing
it
right exceeds the perceived benefit. I resist those temptations
to do it easy.

[trader_4]

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 4:43:28 PM UTC-5, car...@google.com wrote:
> More clarification:
>
> The LED panel is definitely rated for a 15amp circuit. Basically, I am not sure if it is ok to run it on a 20amp circuit, and with the wiring method I drew in the diagram.
>

It is OK. The only possible code issue was what Don brought up, ie that
kitchens are supposed to have 20A circuits reserved for receptacles for
appliances and it's probably a code violation to hook up a dedicated
light circuit. But this is a 15W LED and it really doesn't have a
material effect on the availability of 20A at the receptacles. And that
is a new requirement, I don't think it would apply to circuits installed
prior to when the new 20A requirement went into effect.

As long as you wire it in at the box with the receptacle, you're OK.
Only other possible issue would be not exceeding the wire fill capacity
of the box.

> My questions were:
> 1) Is it to code?
> 2) Is it safe?

Yes

> 3) If I wire it to the 20A circuit, does that mean I'm supplying 120V 20A to it?

No, the circuit is rated at 20A max, you're supplying it ~ 125ma, assuming
it's really 15W. Whatever it is, it's an LED and insignificant.

[car...@google.com]

One more (hopefully last) clarification:

The diagram I drew is actually incorrect. I was planning on placing the orange splice connections INSIDE the green box, not outside.

Is that code-compliant and/or safe?

[Micky]

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:49:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>> > On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
>> > > On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> > > > On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>> > > > <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > >On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> > > > >> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), car...@google.com wrote:
>>

>> I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
>> probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
>> with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
>> done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
>> in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
>> could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
>> appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.
>
>But he specifically said:
>
>"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I know he said that. It still sounds like regular wires to me.

[time goes by]

But he's posted picture links and counting the whole thread I've got
one loss and two wins.
He doesn't want to use a plug.
But I was right about what the wires look like. Even though he has
4 empty receptacles (probably because the kitchen isn't in use yet).
And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
the wall!!
Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box. It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex. Plus if this
is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
that sparks can't get out.

His drawing either shows no junction box, or it shows the connections
made outside of the box!!!

I have my own home-made under-the-counter light, installed at least 25
years ago. Two sockets using those 110V hotdog-shaped light bulbs
(like are used for bed-lamps) and a separate switch (none of which is
visible, just behind the cabinet skirt), and a two-conductor wire
(lamp cord). I put a plug on the cord and plugged it in. I used
insulated staples or 2-sided tape or something to keep the wire up
under the cabinet.

>I thought that we discussing his exact situation, not a situation where a
>plug in type transformer is present.
>

[trader_4]

Last time I checked, Romex doesn't go through the receptacle cover
or typically any cover at all.

> is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
> the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
> acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
> wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
> that sparks can't get out.
>

Most houses today are using plastic boxes that have plastic tabs
that squeeze against the cable. While it's intended for Romex,
I certainly could live with the round cable going through it.
As for tightening up so sparks can't get out, typical box isn't
made to be spark tight to begin with.

> His drawing either shows no junction box, or it shows the connections
> made outside of the box!!!
>

He's clearly intending to make the connection inside the existing
receptacle box. Good grief. Conductor fill might be a legitimate issue
though, depending on what's in there already.

[Micky]

The thing that covers the hole. I don't know what it's called.

>
>
>> is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
>> the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
>> acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
>> wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
>> that sparks can't get out.
>>
>
>Most houses today are using plastic boxes that have plastic tabs
>that squeeze against the cable. While it's intended for Romex,
>I certainly could live with the round cable going through it.
>As for tightening up so sparks can't get out, typical box isn't
>made to be spark tight to begin with.
>

OK

[trader_4]

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 6:30:39 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

> >> Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
> >> the junction box. It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
> >> cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex.
> >
> >Last time I checked, Romex doesn't go through the receptacle cover
> >or typically any cover at all.
>
> The thing that covers the hole. I don't know what it's called.

Manhole cover?

[DerbyDad03]

Really? The receptacles are empty "probably" because the kitchen isn't in
use yet?

The 2 duplex receptacles next my sink are only used for small electrics
like hand mixers, the crock pot, the coffee grinder, etc. Things that are
plugged in, used and then put away. The vast majority of the time they are
empty. The unfinished counter tells us the kitchen is not in use yet, but
empty receptacles tell us nothing other than that they are empty.

As for your "win" related to the cord. Your *assumption* was correct, while
I chose not to make an assumption and to withhold a suggested method until
we had the details. If your correct guess makes you feel victorious, enjoy
the feeling.

> And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
> the wall!!

And that is acceptable to you? In what world?

That is what I have been trying to get across to you all along. If this is to
be done to code, he is going to need a junction box to accept the cord from
the LED fixture. He will then need to run wire that is rated for in wall use
to that junction box from a source. I could be wrong, but I'll wager that
the cord from the led fixture is not rated for in wall use. Even if it is, it
can't just be run through a hole in the wall.

> Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
> the junction box.

What 2 conductor wire?

Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and

Ground. In addition he said:

"The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?)
onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall."

Even if you have trouble reading, he included a picture.

> It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
> cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex. Plus if this
> is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
> the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
> acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
> wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
> that sparks can't get out.

Sparks? Do you think that the purpose of Romex connectors is to contain
sparks? Wow!

If that isn't a reason for me to slowly back away from this conversation
I don't know what it is.

Moving on...

[Dean Hoffman]

Another word that gets overused is love. A man could love his
country, close relatives, and his dog. But love a movie, a burger,
a store? NO.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Micky]

That's it.

[Stormin Mormon]

Adhesive bandage.

[Micky]

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:45:38 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

We're really going to quibble about "probably". Below you're proud
that you don't make assumptions. So isn't it better to make a
qualified assumption (probably) than an unqualified one?

>
>The 2 duplex receptacles next my sink

Sink? There's no sink in the picture.

> are only used for small electrics
>like hand mixers, the crock pot, the coffee grinder, etc. Things that are
>plugged in, used and then put away. The vast majority of the time they are
>empty.

Not everyone works that way.

>The unfinished counter tells us the kitchen is not in use yet, but
>empty receptacles tell us nothing other than that they are empty.

Who said that was the reason I thought it's not used yet? The
reasons are that the counter has nothing on it, the paint colors don't
match, and the edge of the paint is not straight. But that's not
total proof so I said probably. See?

>As for your "win" related to the cord. Your *assumption* was correct, while
>I chose not to make an assumption and to withhold a suggested method until
>we had the details. If your correct guess makes you feel victorious, enjoy
>the feeling.

MMMmmmMMMmmm. Oh, that's good.

>> And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
>> the wall!!
>
>And that is acceptable to you? In what world?

Where did I say it was acceptable? Four lines down I said " Plus if
this is permitted at all (????)...."

>That is what I have been trying to get across to you all along. If this is to
>be done to code, he is going to need a junction box to accept the cord from
>the LED fixture. He will then need to run wire that is rated for in wall use
>to that junction box from a source. I could be wrong, but I'll wager that
>the cord from the led fixture is not rated for in wall use. Even if it is, it
>can't just be run through a hole in the wall.

That's what I said in an earlier post.

>> Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
>> the junction box.
>
>What 2 conductor wire?

The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.

>
>Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
>Ground.

I see 2 wires and 2 shadows. He might have been wrong when he said
there was a ground.

>In addition he said:
>
>"The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?)
>onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall."
>
>Even if you have trouble reading, he included a picture.

Look at it.

>> It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
>> cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex. Plus if this
>> is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
>> the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
>> acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
>> wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
>> that sparks can't get out.
>
>Sparks? Do you think that the purpose of Romex connectors is to contain
>sparks? Wow!

The purpose of junction boxes is to contain sparks and fire.

[Micky]

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 09:55:35 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 12:07:48 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:58:34 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 1:13:06 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 04:40:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>> >> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), car...@google.com wrote:

..............

>> >You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
>> >to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.
>>
>> Well, they don't look like alligators. They look like wires.
>
>True. They might even look like the wires that come with a bathroom fan.
>3 loose wires (18g?) one black, one white, one green. Maybe it's a short
>run of Romex. Do you feel that putting a plug on those types of wires

They would never put Romex on a less than 20 watt light.

>"will not detract from the appearance of the kitchen?"
>
>If you think that either of those will be an OK look, then we have nothing
>further to discuss.

Red herring. I didn't suggest those wires, you did.

>If you agree with me that that that would not be aesthetically pleasing, then I repeat:
>
>You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
>to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.
>
>>
>> >Again, based on his use of the
>> >words "intended to be hardwired inside the wall" I lean away from the simple
>> >attachment of a plug being aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it may not
>> >even be to code.
>>
>> What in the code prevents connecting two 14, 16, or 18 gauge wires to
>> a plug?
>
>I don't know. That's why I said *may*. You keep making statements based on
>your assumptions of what he is dealing with and I keep leaving it wide open
>until we know the details. You have no clue what the "bare leads intended
>to be hardwired inside the wall" look like, yet you keep saying things like
>"Put a plug on them! Solder on longer wires! It'll be beautiful! It will
>meet code!"

What do you mean "no clue". I've seen 100's of electric lights.

The wires look just like I expected.

And he could put a plug on them. He just doesn't want to, and I
understand that.

>That make no sense.
>

[DerbyDad03]

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
...snip...

> >
> >What 2 conductor wire?
>
> The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.
>
> >
> >Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
> >Ground.
>
> I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.

Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
for you.

I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
(green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
the hot and neutral end.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ

> He might have been wrong when he said there was a ground.

He never said anything about a ground being there or not. All he said
was "The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel..." and he was 100% correct.
Tis you that are wrong.

Pop quiz:

Let's say the device only had 2 wires, a hot and a neutral. What color
would expect those to wires to be?


...snip...

[Don Y]

On 2/24/2016 5:51 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

> Another word that gets overused is love. A man could love his
> country, close relatives, and his dog. But love a movie, a burger,
> a store? NO.

I'm annoyed with the overuse (IMO) of the word "hero".

Someone gets assassinated in a school shooting and they're a "hero".
Really? What particular act of bravery did they accomplish? For
all we know, they may have been cowering behind a CHILD when killed.

This cheapens the term, IMO. A guy who throws himself on a grenade
to protect others is a hero.

[trader_4]

+1 to all the above. I'm still trying to figure out how a romex cable,
typically comes out from a cover plate in Micky's world.

[Micky]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:27:34 -0800 (PST), trader_4
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
>> ...snip...
>>
>> > >
>> > >What 2 conductor wire?
>> >
>> > The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.
>> >
>> > >
>> > >Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
>> > >Ground.
>> >
>> > I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.
>>
>> Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
>> for you.
>>
>> I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
>> viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
>> neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
>> (green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
>> wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
>> the hot and neutral end.

Maybe. There are two shadows, one darker than the other, for each
wire, so it's certainly not clear.

>> http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
>>
>> > He might have been wrong when he said there was a ground.
>>
>> He never said anything about a ground being there or not. All he said

The drawing showed three wires.

>> was "The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel..." and he was 100% correct.
>> Tis you that are wrong.
>>
>> Pop quiz:
>>
>> Let's say the device only had 2 wires, a hot and a neutral. What color
>> would expect those to wires to be?
>>
>>
>> ...snip...
>
>+1 to all the above. I'm still trying to figure out how a romex cable,
>typically comes out from a cover plate in Micky's world.

I'm still trying to figure out how your reading comprehension can be
so low.

[Micky]

I agree. Actually there are two meanings,
1) someone who risks his life (or maybe something else important) for
someone else, and
2) someone who is admired and emulated, most likely by a young person.
A football player can be a boy's hero. Maybe this is a newer
meaning.

But I agree with you, just dying does not make one a hero.

OTOH, Trump was way off base when he implied that all McCain did was
get captured. Coming from a guy who avoided the draft, it was a
particularly obnoxious statement, like many of his. (sorry to bring
in politics, but very related to "hero".)

Something else worth noting. Take almost any TV news story, on the
evening news, and the last sentence where they try to reach a moral or
a conclusion is usually false, unsupported, unrelated, or at best
exaggerated.

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:07:18 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:27:34 -0800 (PST), trader_4
> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
> >> ...snip...
> >>
> >> > >
> >> > >What 2 conductor wire?
> >> >
> >> > The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
> >> > >Ground.
> >> >
> >> > I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.
> >>
> >> Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
> >> for you.
> >>
> >> I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
> >> viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
> >> neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
> >> (green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
> >> wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
> >> the hot and neutral end.
>
> Maybe. There are two shadows, one darker than the other, for each
> wire, so it's certainly not clear.

As long as you are replying to my comments in trader_4's post, I guess
I'll respond here too.

Give up. There is no "maybe" that the neutral (white) wire is visible in
the picture. You need to get a better monitor/device/eyesight. I can see
the white wire on my PC, my iPad and my smartphone.

Maybe Car13 will be nice to you and verify the presence or maybe he'll move
the wires and post another link.

Bottom line is that the neutral wire is visible in the picture, so any
discussion that related to only 2 wires being available is irrelevant.

>
> >> http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
> >>
> >> > He might have been wrong when he said there was a ground.
> >>
> >> He never said anything about a ground being there or not. All he said
>
> The drawing showed three wires.

...because there *are* 3 wires.

>
> >> was "The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel..." and he was 100% correct.
> >> Tis you that are wrong.
> >>
> >> Pop quiz:
> >>
> >> Let's say the device only had 2 wires, a hot and a neutral. What color
> >> would expect those to wires to be?

I asked that question because of your assertion that there are only 2
wires. If we were to suspend reality and agree that there are only 2
wires and then apply your statement "He might have been wrong when he said
there was a ground" do you really think that the wires would be black
and green? In my experience, devices that only provide a hot and a neutral
use black and white, not black and green.

[trader_4]

+1

I can see it. It's partially hidden, but like you said, just knowing
that it's a light, seeing a black and a green, you immediately think
where is the white and then it's not hard to spot.

Bottom line on this whole thing is that to do this 100% absolutely
code compliant would be a real pain in the ass. I could certainly
live with running the wire into the receptacle box and connecting it
there. What would an inspector say? IDK, but they have discretion
and I don't see any real safety issue as long as it's done in a
reasonable way. For example, what happens when an electrician
runs a new cable for a wall receptacle? Do they punch holes everywhere
in the wall to meet the reqt that it be stapled along it's length,
stapled within 12" of the new box, etc? Or do they drill a hole
in the top or bottom plate, cut a hole for a box and just snake the cable?
If you had to strictly follow every last code detail, regardless of the
circumstances, it sure would make for a lot of extra work.

[DerbyDad03]

I couldn't agree more.

This is from a "This Old House" installation. Is it code to have the
Romex come out the wall and left exposed as shown? Maybe a length of
wiremold to cover the Romex would work.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/step/0,,20217311_826161,00.html

I've removed the short cord that comes with shop lights and ran Romex
directly into the housing, secured with a Romex connector. This allowed
me to wire them into a lighting circuit without have to put a receptacle
in the ceiling near each one. Perhaps that is a viable solution for Car13.

Assuming the cord that is on the LED fixture is not code compliant to be
run inside a wall, replacing it with Romex might work. Where he sources
the power from is up to him. Properly, from a lighting circuit, or improperly,
from a counter receptacle box. I realize that I am talking from
both sides by saying he shouldn't run the existing cord inside the wall but
"accepting" a connection to the counter receptacle circuit. It's just that
running the existing cord through the wall makes me very uncomfortable.

[car...@google.com]

Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and everyone else in my building.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more information that is lacking in my description?

Thanks

[Stormin Mormon]

I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.

You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, car...@google.com wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:

Black - Hot
White - Neutral
Green - Ground

>
> I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and everyone else in my building.

OK, here's where things get a little touchy. Please don't take this the
wrong way. After all, you did say: "I do want this to be safe for me and

everyone else in my building."

You don't know what to call the wires which tells me that you haven't
spent much time working with household electrical wiring. You passed the
inspection so now you don't mind going off the reservation. Both of those
things concern me. Are you sure that you are the right person to be
attempting this installation? Do you have friends that have done house
wiring before that would be willing to help/teach you how to do this
safely?

Keep in mind that we are all pretty sure that using that receptacle box
in the first place is not code compliant, so anything else that you do
may only make matters worse.

One of my concerns is that if we just tell you to drill a hole in the wall
and fish that cord into the receptacle box and use wire nuts to match the
wires colors by color, are you going to be able to do that safely? Will you
know if the box is so over crowded that you are so out of code that it is now
unsafe? Do you know how to safely attach stranded wire to solid wire? Do
you know how to safely secure the wire to the box? (You might recall from
my previous posts that I'm not even sure that it is code (or even safe) to
run that cord inside a wall and into a junction box.

>
> I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more information that is lacking in my description?

If you indeed want to tackle this job, we might be able to tell you the
generic steps to get the wiring done, but without actually seeing the
inside of that box, we can't be specific. If they used wire nuts and
pigtails, adding a wire would be done one way (assuming there is room).
If they back-clamped the wires into the receptacle, it will need to be
done in a different way. If there is some sort of shared neutral (I doubt
it) then that adds another element. All I am trying to say is that it all
depends on how that receptacle box is wired.

At the risk of sounding tedious, I really think you need to determine if
that cord should even be run inside the wall. If not, then you are going
to have figure out how to get your source wires into a junction box and
then figure out how to get that cord (safely) into the junction box. As
I mentioned in an earlier post, it might be OK to remove that cord and use
Romex as shown here:

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/step/0,,20217311_826161,00.html


>
> Thanks

Good luck!

[Don Y]

On 2/25/2016 11:44 AM, car...@google.com wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going
> to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct
> and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.
>
> I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned
> about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and
> everyone else in my building.

Then you want it to be "Code compliant"! Period.

[mike]

If it's a 20 amp breaker, don't you need #12?

[Scott Lurndal]

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> writes:
>On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, car...@google.com wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.
>
>As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:
>
>Black - Hot
>White - Neutral
>Green - Ground
>

The canonical terminology (that you'll find in the NEC) is:

Black/Red/Yellow/Brown/Orange/etc. - Current Carrying Conductor
White - Grounded conductor.
Green/Green-yellow/Bare - Grounding conductor.

[car...@google.com]

Thanks everyone. Continued thanks for all the feedback and comments. If the right person is someone who has all the answers then I'm not the right person I guess. But, I'm not an incapable person either.

If there's no safe way to do this, then I'm totally ok skipping the lights. But what would you guys do? Code-compliant or nothing? Or wire to the outlet?

To answer DerbyDad03's concerns:

[DD03] One of my concerns is that if we just tell you to drill a hole in the wall and fish that cord into the receptacle box and use wire nuts to match the

wires colors by color, are you going to be able to do that safely?

[C13] Yes, I can confidently do that. I tested it it "outside" the wall to check functionality and overall lighting effect of the LED panel.

[DD03] Will you know if the box is so over crowded that you are so out of code that it is now unsafe?
[C13] I don't know. I'd have to look it up. Any advice here?

[DD03] Do you know how to safely attach stranded wire to solid wire?
[C13] Yes, I've done that before. Wire nuts, plus add a bit extra length to the stranded wire? Or wrap some stranded wire around the solid wire before the nut?

[DD03] Do you know how to safely secure the wire to the box? (You might recall from my previous posts that I'm not even sure that it is code (or even safe) to

run that cord inside a wall and into a junction box.

[C13] I'd have to look this up too to check. I was going to copy the securing nut/grommet I see on other boxes.

[DerbyDad03]

This is true. It also convinces me that the existing cord cannot be used
to hard wire the fixture into a junction box. If he wants it hard wired,
he is going to have to upsize that cord to match the requirements of the
circuit.

[DerbyDad03]

Please see the other posts related to the fact that you have a 20A circuit.

The cord on the fixture is not 12g, so I don't believe that it can be
brought into the box, which it probably shouldn't be anyway because it is
probably not code to wire the fixture into an counter receptacle circuit.

This is what I was trying to say earlier. You are already going off the
reservation by using the receptacle box. Now you have wire size issues
and a wire type that probably shouldn't be in the wall anyway.

You want it to be safe for you and everyone else in the building, yet it
appears that you will have at least 3 code violations if you continue down
your current path. Forget the receptacle box and do it right.

[car...@google.com]

What if I do this?
1) Connect the supplied cable to a 12-gauge cable (Romex?) outside of the wall and tuck both cables under the cabinet and behind the LED panel. So the entire cable from the LED panel and some length of the 12-gauge cable would be outside the wall.
2) Route the 12-gauge cable in the wall through the junction box.
3) Secure the 12-gauge cable to the junction box.

Alternatively, what would be the right way to do it?

[Stormin Mormon]

It's a branch circuit, not a main line.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 2/25/2016 4:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> The canonical terminology (that you'll find in the NEC) is:
>
> Black/Red/Yellow/Brown/Orange/etc. - Current Carrying Conductor
> White - Grounded conductor.
> Green/Green-yellow/Bare - Grounding conductor.
>

Dear Father Lurndal,
I thought the white carries
current, also?

[Rex]

On 2/25/2016 6:03 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 11:18:26 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, car...@google.com wrote:
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.
>>
>> As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:
>>
>> Black - Hot
>> White - Neutral
>> Green - Ground
>>

> If you want to be pedantic it is
>
> Black - ungrounded conductor
> White - grounded conductor
> Green - grounding conductor but there is a push to call that the
> bonding conductor.
>

In you want to be clear in single phase service (not to be confused with rare two-phase service)

Black = L1 (line)

Red = L2 (line)

White = N (neutral)

Green or bare = G (ground)

[trader_4]

What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
into a 15 or 20A circuit?

[trader_4]

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 2:18:34 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Has anybody asked what the installation instructions say?

Another possible solution is to find a different type of light
that is easier to deal with, maybe separate transformer, that
could be plugged in somewhere, under sink outlet maybe, etc?

[DerbyDad03]

Hey, let me start by saying that I am not a code expert. I've been saying
all along that I'm not sure about the fixture code itself. That said...

I think it's different when the fixture is attached directly to the
fixture box and the wires within the fixture are wire-nutted to the source
wires in the box. Once we start talking about cords from the fixture I don't
think that they can be brought into a junction box but I could be wrong.

I think this section of the code covers what I'm talking about:

NEC 400.8 Uses Not Permitted

(ref. Extension Cord) Flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the
following:

- As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
- Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended
ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
- Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above
suspended or dropped ceilings

I *think* that the fixture cord qualifies as a "flexible cord" and
would therefore not be permitted, especially not permitted inside the
wall. Whether it would be permitted to run from the fixture to a junction
box under the counter or even inside the cabinet is something I'm not
sure of.

[trader_4]

I think you have valid points especially about running it inside
the wall. On the other hand, some manufacturer
made this thing, presumably it's listed, which is why I asked what the
install instructions and pics show. It has a flexible cord that's
supposed to be wired to something. How in the hell are you supposed
to be able to use it?

He could put a plug on the end of it and plug it in, like Micky suggested.

One key to avoiding this is to try to match what you're buying with
what you have to work with.

[WTF]

On 02/25/2016 06:46 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
> into a 15 or 20A circuit?

And what happens when some numbnutz loads a light fixture up with
a couple of these cuz they're too cheap to install proper outlets?

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-1403-Outlet-Socket-Adapter/dp/B001F71O70

[trader_4]

The same thing that happens when people put in bulbs that exceed the
fixture rating, use an extension cord that too small for the loads, etc.
None of those are prevented by whether a breaker is 15A or 20A either.

[WTF]

How come the government doesn't protect me from that?

[Don Y]

Hire an electrician.

[Scott Lurndal]

Could be brown, orange, red, blue, black, yellow, etc. Just not white or green.

>
>Red = L2 (line)

Could be brown, orange, red, blue, black, yellow, etc. Just not white or green.

>
>White = N (neutral)
>
>Green or bare = G (ground)

Green, Green with yellow tracer, bare.

[HerHusband]

I haven't followed this conversation, but why are you using 12 gauge
wire? Your LED cabinet lights are most likely under 20 watts or so. Even
a 14 gauge wire can handle 1800 watts. That's a lot of LED lights.

It sounds like you're wanting to tap power from an existing outlet.
Correct? How many wires enter that box now? How deep is the box? If the
box is at least 2.5" deep and you only have one cable coming in, you're
probably safe to extend the circuit to your cabinet lights. If you have
multiple cables and/or the box is shallow, you could exceed the capacity
of the box.

What kind of connector/fitting is on the undercabinet light? Is it a
standard 3/4" hole with bare wires for hard wiring inside? Or does it
come with a household cord and plug?

I would use 14 gauge romex cable (rated for, and easier to fish inside
walls). If you have room in the source box, it would be better to join
the cables in the box, with short wires to feed the existing outlet. If
space is limited, you could use the terminals on the outlet to "feed
through" the outlet.

Fish the cable through the wall up to your lights. If the fixture is
designed for hard wiring, use a standard cable clamp to secure the cable
to the fixture. Then use wire nuts to make the connections inside the
fixture.

If the fixture is designed with a standard cord and plug, you could cut
off the existing plug and splice it to the Romex (OUTSIDE the wall, don't
bury the splice in the wall). I would slip heat shrink tubing over the
cable, then more heat shrink tubing over the loose wires. Use crimp
connectors to join the wires, then slip the tubing over the
connectors/wires and shrink. Then repeat with the outer heat shrink
tubing. Make sure to secure the cables with clamps (NOT STAPLES) so they
won't get pulled.

Obviously, turn off the power before doing any of this!

Done right, this is a simple and secure installation. Done wrong you can
electrocute yourself or someone you love and/or cause a fire that will
burn your house down.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

[trader_4]

On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 11:46:30 AM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
> > What if I do this?
> > 1) Connect the supplied cable to a 12-gauge cable (Romex?) outside of
> > the wall and tuck both cables under the cabinet and behind the LED
> > panel. So the entire cable from the LED panel and some length of the
> > 12-gauge cable would be outside the wall. 2) Route the 12-gauge cable
> > in the wall through the junction box. 3) Secure the 12-gauge cable to
> > the junction box.
> > Alternatively, what would be the right way to do it?
>
> I haven't followed this conversation,

Obviously.

So far, you're the only one here who thinks it's simple, with no
major code problems.

[HerHusband]

>> I haven't followed this conversation,
> Obviously.

Yep, I only have partial information to go on.

> So far, you're the only one here who thinks it's simple, with no
> major code problems.

It is not a complicated circuit, but yes there are code issues to consider.

1. It is standard practice in remodel work to extend a circuit for a new
outlet or fixture. The biggest issue I can think of would be box fill
requirements in the source box. I did mention the number of cables and size
of the box as a factor in my initial reply.

2. Wire gauge. I DID ask the OP "why" they were using 12 gauge wire.
Obviously, if the circuit is protected by a 20 amp breaker you would need
to use 12 gauge wire on that circuit (14 gauge wire could overheat before
the 20A breaker would trip). Otherwise, 14 gauge wire would be more than
adequate for an LED fixture.

3. Obviously, you can't use standard lamp cord inside a wall. You would
need to use rated cable such as Romex.

4. Connection at the lamp. Ideally the fixture would be designed for hard
wiring, with a proper cable clamp and space in the fixture to make
connections with wire nuts. Unfortunately, many undercabinet fixtures are
made to plug in. The obvious solution would be to install an outlet near
the fixture where the lamp could be plugged in. Unless the lamp
manufacturer provides a certified junction box of some type, there aren't
many low profile options that can fit under a cabinet.

My use of crimp connectors is certainly "NOT" code compliant, but done
properly it is a safe installation as long as the splice is not buried in a
wall and the cables are properly secured.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

[T]

On 02/23/2016 07:10 PM, Oren wrote:
>
> ... you owe me big time friend.
>
> Standing it line for an hour to "cockus". Three minutes to cast my
> selection on a paper ballot. We need to go back to the primary before
> 2008 change and vote electronically. I could vote and be gone in 10
> minutes at my precinct. Shish.
>
> When I signed your tax referendum, twenty minutes to find out anybody
> that could give it to me -- I was the first one to sign it. Are people
> paying attention or what?
>
> I had to stand beside Donald Trump, Jr. too, while I waited for the
> petition to be found and listen to 30-50 seconds of his speech of how
> great his amazing father is. Looked like he had one of those $800
> hair cuts for cripes sake. Shish.
>
> P.S. you can help vote against that stinking Bllomberg gun initiative
> in June, please.
>
> Oh, the misery I suffered tonight :-)
>

Hi Oren,

My first Caucus too. It was "weird". Like voting except you can
politic with those gathered. Everyone loved my "Lyin' Brian's
tax" description.

We had a table to find out precinct. Lyin' Brian's petition
was next to it. Folks would get the precinct number, then move
sideways and sign the petition. As far as I could tell, the
sign rate was 100%. I appreciate you hunting it down!

I will definitely vote to kill Bllomberg gun initiative.

Did you hear that Dear Leader floated Lyin' Brian (Nevada's
Lyin', Betrayin', RINO Governor) for the Supreme Court. Gag.

Is it just me or does Trump's hair cut resemble a golf hat?

Ya, I do owe you one. If for nothing else for having endure
Trump's kids hair cut!

:-)

-T

[gfre...@aol.com]

Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.
I see the real issue with this installation is the cord to the lamp.
This is using the provisions of "fixture wires" that allow an 18 gauge
conductor to be hard wired to a branch circuit. Typically that will be
in a box that is part of the listed product or where the fixture
canopy acts as the cover for a regular device box.
If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

[DerbyDad03]

Thank you! I was hoping you'd respond. :-)

You have essentially confirmed what I considered the main issue with this
installation: That pesky flexible cord.

Could the cord be attached to the bottom of a cabinet, go through a hole
in the cabinet bottom and into a junction box inside the cabinet? From
there a properly sized run of Romex could go into the wall and to the source.

I suggest this as means to avoid having a surface mounted box out in the open.

[Tekkie®]

gfre...@aol.com posted for all of us...

> The fire fighter's union is creating jobs? ;-)

YEAH, except I'm only a volley and not union. Put the wet stuff on the red
stuff. Never lost a foundation yet...

--
Tekkie

[gfre...@aol.com]

Absolutely but at that point, why not just put a duplex receptacle in
there and put a plug on the cord. Then you would have another outlet
for something else.
A "wiremold" box is designed for surface mount and really does not
look that bad. They are also pretty shallow.

[DerbyDad03]

I assume you mean a duplex inside the cabinet, right?

Just in case you missed it, the OP has stated he does not want to plug the fixture
into the existing counter receptacle.

Would it need to be GFCI protected? It couldn't be on the counter appliance circuit,
could it?

> A "wiremold" box is designed for surface mount and really does not
> look that bad. They are also pretty shallow.

Just curious, if that was mounted outside the cabinet, how would it be distinguished as
not being a counter receptacle?

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 15:44:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:08:18 PM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

>> Absolutely but at that point, why not just put a duplex receptacle in
>> there and put a plug on the cord. Then you would have another outlet
>> for something else.
>
>I assume you mean a duplex inside the cabinet, right?

yes

>Just in case you missed it, the OP has stated he does not want to plug the fixture
>into the existing counter receptacle.
>
>Would it need to be GFCI protected? It couldn't be on the counter appliance circuit,
>could it?
>

No it doesn't need to be GFCI, unless it is within 6' of the sink but
it would still be on one of the small appliance circuits.
We have 2 different issues. All 120v receptacles in the kitchen,
dining room, pantry etc need to be 20a with no other outlets (except
for a 15a refrigeration outlet) but only the ones serving the
countertop need GFCI. You will also be picking up wall receptacles in
the dining or similar rooms on the SA circuits but they don't have to
be GFCI.
If you do not avail yourself of the reefer exception, you can put the
fridge on a SA circuit, before or after the GFCI.
There is nothing to say you can't have more than 2 SA circuits. It
just says they all have to be 20a and only serve the areas that
require SA circuits. (you can't go through the wall and serve the
outside deck)
After the 2014 is adopted in your area, it would need to be AFCI
(including 30ma GF protection)

>> A "wiremold" box is designed for surface mount and really does not
>> look that bad. They are also pretty shallow.
>
>Just curious, if that was mounted outside the cabinet, how would it be distinguished as
>not being a counter receptacle?

210.52(C)(5) specifically says receptacles in appliance garages (a
cabinet) are not accessible as counter top receptacles.
It ia also likely to be greater than 20" above the countertop (another
qualifier).

As long as you have 2 "clean" SA circuits in a kitchen remodel they
will usually give you a break if some of the other circuits are
shared. At my house, the fridge is on with the bathroom vanity light
and the lights in the attic. I didn't see it as an issue and when the
Lee County guy inspected me he never even asked because that wall was
not opened up. I did pull in 2 clean circuits and left the old ones so
I have lots of power in the kitchen.

[DerbyDad03]

As always, thank you for sharing your expertise.

[Oren]

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 01:16:46 -0800, T <T...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Ya, I do owe you one. If for nothing else for having endure
>Trump's kids hair cut!

The things I do for my fellow man. His hair reminded me of the
plastic hair used by The Flying Elvises parachute team over Vegas,
only shorter :-\

[HerHusband]

> Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.

I recently replaced our old fluorescent undercabinet lamps with new LED
fixtures. Unfortunately, I could not find a junction box thin enough to
mount under my cabinet. The romex cable already came out of the wall, so I
used crimp connectors and heat shrink tubing to connect the transformer
cord to the romex. I'm sure it doesn't meet code, but it's secure and
easily accessable from under the cabinet.

> If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
> connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
> this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

Could he install the outlet above the cabinet, then run the lamp cord
through the cabinet to plug in the outlet above (with some kind of physical
protection for the cord)?

I used that method when we remodeled my in-laws house, but I had built
dedicated chases in the cabinets for the cord to pass through. Once the
cabinets were installed, I simply slipped the lamp cord up through the
chase and plugged them into the outlets above. The outlets aren't visible
from below unless you stand on a ladder.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

[DerbyDad03]

Could you describe the "dedicated chase"? It sounds as if it's inside the wall.
It that correct?