Pennsylvania Electric Rate Increase

[Dean Hoffman]

Christmas light displays will get more expensive this year.
<https://www.inquirer.com/business/peco-ppl-electricity-prices-rates-increase-pennsylvania-20211126.html>

[Frank]

On 11/26/2021 8:24 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> Christmas light displays will get more expensive this year.
> <https://www.inquirer.com/business/peco-ppl-electricity-prices-rates-increase-pennsylvania-20211126.html>
>

Saw this in the paper this morning:

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/23/1058409703/passing-the-buck-dollar-tree-raises-prices-to-1-25

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 8:24:38 AM UTC-5, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
> Christmas light displays will get more expensive this year.
> <https://www.inquirer.com/business/peco-ppl-electricity-prices-rates-increase-pennsylvania-20211126.html>

I wonder if that "50%" increase is on some top-tier rates, with lesser increases
on lower tiers.

I'm paying
0.045 on the first 510 KWH for "power supply charges"
0.064840 on the next 1093 KWH for "power supply charges"
0.041760 on 1603 KWH for "power supp;ly non capacity charge"
0.066110 on 1603 KWH for "delivery charges"

Plus miscellaneous other bribery and corruption charges.

Cindy Hamilton

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/26/2021 8:24 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

> Christmas light displays will get more expensive this year.
> <https://www.inquirer.com/business/peco-ppl-electricity-prices-rates-increase-pennsylvania-20211126.html>
>

Panic inducing headline. One small power company is increasing a
portion of the bill 50% but that is for energy and not the delivery side
so they may see a 25% increase on the total bill.

The larger companies, much less:
Peco Energy, which serves Philadelphia and its suburbs, will boost its
energy charge by 6.4% on Dec. 1, from 6.6 cents per kilowatt hour to
about 7 cents per kWh.


Based on the Peco increase, my cost in a hot month with lots of AC
running would be $4.00. this time of years. about $1.60.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 26 Nov 2021 06:00:51 -0800 (PST),

"angelica...@yahoo.com" <angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 8:24:38 AM UTC-5, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Christmas light displays will get more expensive this year.
>> <https://www.inquirer.com/business/peco-ppl-electricity-prices-rates-increase-pennsylvania-20211126.html>
>
>I wonder if that "50%" increase is on some top-tier rates, with lesser increases
>on lower tiers.
>
>I'm paying
>0.045 on the first 510 KWH for "power supply charges"
>0.064840 on the next 1093 KWH for "power supply charges"
>0.041760 on 1603 KWH for "power supp;ly non capacity charge"
>0.066110 on 1603 KWH for "delivery charges"

You can probably lower delivery charges if you use grubhub, doordash, or
even Lyft.

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

Good one. I wonder if they'd bring it in one of those Chinese restaurant
take-out boxes.

Cindy Hamilton

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 06:00:51 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"
<angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yikes That is 17-18 cents a KWH.
You used 1603 KWH, what was the bill?

I pay 11.66 cents a KWH top line to bottom line.
(Bill/KWH)
Non-fuel: (First 1000 kWh at $0.067000) (Over 1000 kWh at $0.077620)
Fuel: (First 1000 kWh at $0.025100) (Over 1000 kWh at $0.035100)


I suppose it is better than California. They pay outrageous amounts
and PG&E is still letting their infrastructure rot.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:19:20 -0500, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:

Only if you don't tip them, then they might spit in your electricity .

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 11:26:00 AM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 06:00:51 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"
> <angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 8:24:38 AM UTC-5, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Christmas light displays will get more expensive this year.
> >> <https://www.inquirer.com/business/peco-ppl-electricity-prices-rates-increase-pennsylvania-20211126.html>
> >
> >I wonder if that "50%" increase is on some top-tier rates, with lesser increases
> >on lower tiers.
> >
> >I'm paying
> >0.045 on the first 510 KWH for "power supply charges"
> >0.064840 on the next 1093 KWH for "power supply charges"
> >0.041760 on 1603 KWH for "power supp;ly non capacity charge"
> >0.066110 on 1603 KWH for "delivery charges"
> >
> >Plus miscellaneous other bribery and corruption charges.
> >
> >Cindy Hamilton
> Yikes That is 17-18 cents a KWH.
> You used 1603 KWH, what was the bill?

Somewhere around $300. Outdoor hot tub and indoor air-conditioning
at the first hint of warmth. Sundry other loads like a dehumidifier,
two fridges, running the HVAC blower 24/7/365


Cindy Hamilton

[Dean Hoffman]

Ouch. Mine hit just under $100 a couple times this summer.
I thought that was enough.

[rbowman]

The price per KWH is less for me during the winter when I use
supplemental electric heat. In the summer 95% of the bill is the various
fixed charges. I could pull the mains and it still would cost me about
$35 a month.

[rbowman]

I haven't broken $100 even in the winter with electric space heaters. No
hot tub and no AC helps.

[Wade Garrett]

Mine is a monthly base charge of $39.26 plus .0521/kWH. I use around
650-750 kWH in the summer and 300-450 the rest of the year (low end of
the range in spring/fall).

In the last year, my low bill was $54.18, high was $85.30, most bills
are in the $60-$65 range.

--
Learn to sit back and observe. Not everything needs a reaction.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:30:23 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"

Is that your winter bill with the hot tub running? That is surprising.
My usage is more like 2500 KWH but I am pumping water, cooking and
heating water on that bill along with the same stuff you have.
My wife's oxygen concentrator costs about $35-40 a month to run
according to my Kill A watt. (~450watts) I suppose I could find a way
to bill Medicare for that if I wanted to but I am not screwing with
it.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 26 Nov 2021 07:25:50 -0800 (PST),

"angelica...@yahoo.com" <angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 10:19:22 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 26 Nov 2021 06:00:51 -0800 (PST),
>> "angelica...@yahoo.com" <angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, November 26, 2021 at 8:24:38 AM UTC-5, dean...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> Christmas light displays will get more expensive this year.
>> >> <https://www.inquirer.com/business/peco-ppl-electricity-prices-rates-increase-pennsylvania-20211126.html>
>> >
>> >I wonder if that "50%" increase is on some top-tier rates, with lesser increases
>> >on lower tiers.
>> >
>> >I'm paying
>> >0.045 on the first 510 KWH for "power supply charges"
>> >0.064840 on the next 1093 KWH for "power supply charges"
>> >0.041760 on 1603 KWH for "power supp;ly non capacity charge"
>> >0.066110 on 1603 KWH for "delivery charges"
>> You can probably lower delivery charges if you use grubhub, doordash, or
>> even Lyft.
>
>Good one. I wonder if they'd bring it in one of those Chinese restaurant
>take-out boxes.
>
>Cindy Hamilton

Good one. Both of you.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:39:32 -0800 (PST), Dean

Mine's on autopay and boy is it easy to spend money without paying
attention with autopay.

But I just checked and for the last 2 years it runs 58 to 89 dollars

One approximate month as low as 45. But there's only one of me here.

It tends to be less in the summer, I guess because I use less lighting,
and I don't have AC anymore since it broke. I count and there are about
6 - 8 days a summer that I really wish I had it, although if I had a
wife or daughter, there would be more.

BGE has always had one of the worst webpages, and now when I click on
Details there are no details. But it does let me see an image of the
bill they would have mailed:

Residential - Schedule R
Billing Period: Oct 20, 2021 - Nov 18, 2021 Days Billed: 29
Next Scheduled Reading: December 19, 2021
Meter #G156872197 Read on Nov 18
Current Reading 49238 - Previous Reading 48620
= 618kWh used
ELECTRIC SUPPLY $51.48
BGE 618 kWh x .0833 51.48
BGE ELECTRIC DELIVERY $31.45**
Customer Charge 8.00
EmPower MD Chg 618 kWh x .00594 3.67
Distribution Chg 618 kWh x .03512 21.70
BGE Federal Tax Credit - 1.92
TAXES & FEES $0.79
M D Universal Svc Prog 0.32
Envir Srchg 618 kWh x .000147 0.09
Franchise Tax 618 kWh x .00062 0.38
TOTAL $83.72

**I have to call Grubhub.

If you add up the per Kwh it's about 12.5c per kWh. I don't know how
much it is elsewhere, or at the local competitors.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 16:07:16 -0500, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:

618 KWH, you are damned near Amish ;-)
My wife's oxygen machine uses about 60% of that by itself.
I suppose you have natural gas for heating things and cooking tho.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 26 Nov 2021 19:16:53 -0500,

gfre...@aol.com wrote:

>
>>Residential - Schedule R
>>Billing Period: Oct 20, 2021 - Nov 18, 2021 Days Billed: 29
>>Next Scheduled Reading: December 19, 2021
>>Meter #G156872197 Read on Nov 18
>>Current Reading 49238 - Previous Reading 48620
>>= 618kWh used
>>ELECTRIC SUPPLY $51.48
>>BGE 618 kWh x .0833 51.48
>>BGE ELECTRIC DELIVERY $31.45**
>>Customer Charge 8.00
>>EmPower MD Chg 618 kWh x .00594 3.67
>>Distribution Chg 618 kWh x .03512 21.70
>>BGE Federal Tax Credit - 1.92
>>TAXES & FEES $0.79
>>M D Universal Svc Prog 0.32
>>Envir Srchg 618 kWh x .000147 0.09
>>Franchise Tax 618 kWh x .00062 0.38
>>TOTAL $83.72
>>
>>**I have to call Grubhub.
>>
>>If you add up the per Kwh it's about 12.5c per kWh. I don't know how
>>much it is elsewhere, or at the local competitors.
>
>618 KWH, you are damned near Amish ;-)

Maybe because I live so close to Lancaster.

>My wife's oxygen machine uses about 60% of that by itself.
>I suppose you have natural gas for heating things and cooking tho.

No, but I haven't been using the oven much lately. I even microwave
cookie dough. My interest has been piqued however and I hope I'll start
roasting and broiling more and keep track then

[Ed Pawlowski]

I figure my wife's used 185 kw a month. less than $20.

No, you can't bill Medicare for it either. One of my son's clients
tried it .

[Ed Pawlowski]

My highest month was August at 969.
December to April ran 429 to 506. Hot water, dryer, cooking is gas.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 19:34:17 -0500, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:

How do you heat air and water?

[gfre...@aol.com]

I guess I need to put the meter on it again. I only watched it a few
hours. This is one of those old R2D2 looking rental machines that
farts every 45 seconds or so. It may just be worn out.

>No, you can't bill Medicare for it either. One of my son's clients
>tried it .

I'm OK with that. They do buy her "go bottles".
PT lady says she thinks she can get her off of it. Things are getting
a lot better.

[Ed Pawlowski]

That's good. I also have a machine to fill the bottles too. One of the
benefits of having a family member in the business.

[gfre...@aol.com]

If we had nat gas here, I would have a smaller electric bill I
imagine. My guess is my baseline average without any "heaters" on is
about 2.5 kw/h. At least a kw of it is computers of some sort.

[gfre...@aol.com]

I am tolerating all of it hoping this all goes away soon. Nobody is
really sure why she needs oxygen. (heart and lungs are OK) They are
still doing stuff to see. They say her D Ox is fluctuating.
We are both walking around with oximeters in our pocket trying to make
sense of this. Maybe it just does.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Nat gas here is cheap. I average about $15 a month for two of us.
Dryer, hot water, cooking, grilling. My gas use is 10 to 11 therms
equals about 300kW in electric.

Granddaughter has a place of her own and starting next week use will be
less.

[Bob F]

kW????

[gfre...@aol.com]

The "H" is silent ;-)

[Frank]

Delmarva Power cut off gas to new customers nearly 50 years ago before
my house was built. About half our small development got it before they
cut it off an there is a gas line a few hundred yards away.

Now I see in newer adjacent large development that they are putting in
new gas lines.

I would like a gas line if I could put in a whole house generator but
not sure I would switch heating due to cost and wife likes cooking with
electric.

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

The bill is pretty constant, all year long. Big charges in the
winter for the hot tub; big charges in the late spring, summer, and
early fall for air-conditioning.

Cindy Hamilton

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 07:12:13 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"

I looked at my usage and it is all over the place. We can get it by
the hour, day or month in bar charts online since they put in the
smart meter. It does explain why I can get by with a 5.5KW generator
tho. My average usage, even with the big power hogs on line (central
AC, water heater dryer and oven) is still 2-3 KWH but there are big
peaks and valleys. Some I still don't understand. Others make perfect
sense. It is an interesting way to blow an hour tho, looking at the
detail of your usage. I do understand why Musk says one of his
batteries will level out your demand. With a big enough battery a
3600W generator would run my house. Until I turned on the hot tub
heater anyway. I usually keep the heat off unless I am getting in it.
(11kw heater). That is where natural gas would really make a
difference.

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

Our hot tub is a big 500 (700?) gallon tank that takes the better part
of a day to heat. I'm not sure we'd care to plan our soaks that far
ahead.

Cindy Hamilton

[Ed Pawlowski]

CA is eliminating gas in new homes and a friend i talked with this
morning said MA is planning to eliminate gas and oil in the future.
Emissions is their reasoning.

For things like the dryer or water heater I have no fuel preference as
long as they work. I like gas for cooking. Heat up Naan? Just toss it
on the grate with a medium flame, flip with tongs.

NG for a generator would be nice though.

[Bob F]

Gas cooking can be unhealthy.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2020/5/7/21247602/gas-stove-cooking-indoor-air-pollution-health-risks

[Ed Pawlowski]

Making dark toast and burning food is unhealthy too. That is why there
is a vent over the range.

[Bob F]

No such concern here, since I use mine almost every day, and sometimes
twice in a day. Costs a little over $1/day of gas to keep it hot via hot
water from the house water heater pumped through copper pipes under the
seats.. 6" of extruded polystyrene underneath the tank, 10" of
fiberglass insulation around it, and 3.5" fiber-glassed polyurethane
foam lid keep the losses low.

[Frank]

Offhand it appears to me that eliminating gas and oil for home heating
is incredibly stupid. These uses are extremely efficient versus
automotive where petroleum efficiency is less than 50%. Gas furnaces are
available with over 95% efficiency. With these fuels used to generate
electricity and transmission losses I bet electric home heating is more
inefficient and polluting. Also in colder climates heat pumps alone are
inadequate.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 11:15:40 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"

Mine is 8' roughly square. I think it is ~450 gallons but I don't
really know. With 11,000w I can get about 10-11 degrees an hour so it
is not horrible planning ahead. I really just use it when it is cold
outside and that is not that often. I have a 330kbtu propane pool
heater that would warm it up in 15 20 minutes but I haven't made that
connection yet.

[Scott Lurndal]

gfre...@aol.com writes:
>On Sat, 27 Nov 2021 07:12:13 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"
><angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

>>> >> >I wonder if that "50%" increase is on some top-tier rates, with lesser increases
>>> >> >on lower tiers.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I'm paying
>>> >> >0.045 on the first 510 KWH for "power supply charges"
>>> >> >0.064840 on the next 1093 KWH for "power supply charges"
>>> >> >0.041760 on 1603 KWH for "power supp;ly non capacity charge"
>>> >> >0.066110 on 1603 KWH for "delivery charges"
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Plus miscellaneous other bribery and corruption charges.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Cindy Hamilton
>>> >> Yikes That is 17-18 cents a KWH.
>>> >> You used 1603 KWH, what was the bill?
>>> >
>>> >Somewhere around $300. Outdoor hot tub and indoor air-conditioning
>>> >at the first hint of warmth. Sundry other loads like a dehumidifier,
>>> >two fridges, running the HVAC blower 24/7/365
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Cindy Hamilton
>>> Is that your winter bill with the hot tub running?
>>
>>The bill is pretty constant, all year long. Big charges in the
>>winter for the hot tub; big charges in the late spring, summer, and
>>early fall for air-conditioning.
>>
>>Cindy Hamilton
>
>I looked at my usage and it is all over the place.

My bill is a constant $10.00/month. I use somewhere around
1200KwH/month. With the annual rebate and excess generation, I'll
likely end up net zero for the year. Currently look like
about six years to recoup the cost of the solar panels.

[gfre...@aol.com]

I think gas stoves were popular when houses leaked plenty of make up
air. Now that we are sealing houses up, maybe we do need to turn the
air over more. The answer might be air to air heat exchangers to
scavenge the heat or cooling from the exhaust air.
I also think blocking new natural gas hookups is stupid until we come
up with a replacement. We are already stressing the grid and a few
million electric cars will only make it worse. California may be the
worst example of a broken grid infrastructure and mandates to push it
beyond capacity.. John Oliver did a show about the grid a while ago
and he showed the hooks that failed, causing the Camp Fire. Those
lines are already running beyond their design load and that isn't
getting better.
Another thing Oliver pointed out is the places most suitable for
alternate energy generation are not near any transmission lines to get
that to where the people who need it are. That is a multi decade
project, not just stringing an extension cord across the great plains.
Logically, this should be directional bores, putting the lines
underground and away from the weather that can take them out. It might
also be easier to sell underground lines to the people who will have
to live with them. As long as they know not to drill any deep holes,
they could farm normally on PoCo land.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 00:31:36 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Irma destroyed my pool collectors so I would have to factor that risk
into any PV system I bought.
At this point in my life, I might not live long enough to get my money
back from a system and when it was an option mathematically they were
still $8-9 a watt. I do have a spot on the new addition where I built
the roof with collectors in mind (orientation, additional membrane
etc) but I just can't get interested yet. I still only have room for
~2.3kw using the collectors they proposed then. They say, honestly,
that is only about 13-14 KW/H a day on average here. A buck and a half
a day is not going to make much of a dent in my bill.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/27/2021 6:42 PM, Frank wrote:

>>
>> CA is eliminating gas in new homes and a friend i talked with this
>> morning said MA is planning to eliminate gas and oil in the future.
>> Emissions is their reasoning.
>>
>> For things like the dryer or water heater I have no fuel preference as
>> long as they work.  I like gas for cooking.  Heat up Naan?  Just toss
>> it on the grate with a medium flame, flip with tongs.
>>
>> NG for a generator would be nice though.
>
> Offhand it appears to me that eliminating gas and oil for home heating
> is incredibly stupid.  These uses are extremely efficient versus
> automotive where petroleum efficiency is less than 50%. Gas furnaces are
> available with over 95% efficiency.  With these fuels used to generate
> electricity and transmission losses I bet electric home heating is more
> inefficient and polluting.  Also in colder climates heat pumps alone are
> inadequate.

Now you are confusing the greenies with technical terms like efficiency.

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/546181-banning-natural-gas-in-homes-will-increase-the-consumption-of

When natural gas is being burned in a power plant, only about 45 percent
of the energy contained in it will be converted into electricity. As
that electricity is transported and distributed, additional 6 to 10
percent is lost; and the amount of electrical energy delivered to a
house is typically just one-third of the energy contained in the natural
gas fuel. Consequently, the overall efficiency of a gas heater is almost
three times as high than that of its all-electric counterpart.

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

In retrospect, I wish we'd used gas for heating the hot tub. But it's
comparatively far from the house, and we didn't want to run gas
out there.

Cindy Hamilton

[Frank]

Thanks for pointing out the inefficiency for gas in power generation. I
was under the misunderstanding that it was very high.

The numbers you give undermine the whole electric car push by the greenies.

[Scott Lurndal]

Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> writes:
> Heat up Naan? Just toss it
>on the grate with a medium flame, flip with tongs.

A toaster is faster and easier.

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 7:32:22 AM UTC-5, Frank wrote:

> Thanks for pointing out the inefficiency for gas in power generation. I
> was under the misunderstanding that it was very high.
>
> The numbers you give undermine the whole electric car push by the greenies.

Maybe. I certainly wouldn't mind it if nobody had tailpipe emissions and
it was all transferred to the electric power generation facility.

Cindy Hamilton

[Scott Lurndal]

Frank <"frank "@frank.net> writes:
>On 11/27/2021 2:27 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>> CA is eliminating gas in new homes and a friend i talked with this

California Proposes Limiting Natural Gas Use in New Construction Starting in 2023.

>
>Offhand it appears to me that eliminating gas and oil for home heating
>is incredibly stupid.

Offhand, it appears to me that you have no expertise or facts to back
up your assertions.

> These uses are extremely efficient versus
>automotive where petroleum efficiency is less than 50%. Gas furnaces are
>available with over 95% efficiency.

"So a leading edge (at present) residential heat pump can deliver
heat at 600% efficiency, compared with a gas heater at 50% to 95%
efficiency."

[Scott Lurndal]

I think your numbers are off. A 12-panel setup (350w panels) should
produce about 3.5kw peak. Your insolation is better than mine,
so you should get better than 35KwH/day for most of the summer.

And prices are close to half they were years ago.

It is true that Floridians don't pay the full cost of their
electricity. But that will change.

[gfre...@aol.com]

Out of sight out of mind huh?

OTOH we still make a lot of electricity with coal and a modern EFI car
engine is much cleaner than a soft coal plant and much more efficient.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Not the same. You don't get those little crispy spots that make it so
good. If you don't appreciate the difference, go for it.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:52:59 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)

Prices are coming down on solar. I agree with that but when they
looked at the available space they proposed 2.3 KW and the company
told me, real life experience is you can only average that out to 6
hours a day at the rated capacity. That pro rates against the fact
that you only get optimum radiation a few hours a day without tracking
and you sometimes have clouds and rain during that peak time. I doubt
they had reason to lie. When they wrote the proposal the price for
2.3kw was $17,260 minus all the rebates but the $9k Florida rebate
program that would have made this attractive ran out of money. At 11
cents a KW/H it takes a while to get that back.

>It is true that Floridians don't pay the full cost of their
>electricity. But that will change.

Who pays the rest? Explain.

[Scott Lurndal]

gfre...@aol.com writes:
>On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:52:59 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:

>

>>It is true that Floridians don't pay the full cost of their
>>electricity. But that will change.
>
>Who pays the rest? Explain.

While you'll likely disagree:

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/hidden-costs-fossil-fuels

[rbowman]

I recently read about one of the projects to distribute solar cookers to
third world countries. The women in Afghanistan complained because the
naan didn't have the nice smoky flavor you get when cooking over a cow
dung fire so the organization sent a barrel of liquid smoke with the
next batch of cookers.

They estimated that Ma Sayyid was inhaling the equivalent of three packs
a day when cooking chow for the Sayyid family.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 11:36:42 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> I recently read about

Oh, no! The blabbering starts again...

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Frank]

Tailpipes are pretty clean now with catalytic converters and the like.
The greenies really object to carbon dioxide and call it a pollutant.
It is hypocritical of them to also object to nuclear generation.

[Frank]

Rebates and tax breaks means those of us that do not have this stuff pay
for it.

[Bob F]

Good read. Thanks.

[angelica...@yahoo.com]

I think my utility uses mainly natural gas.

Makes me faintly nauseated to get behind some poorly-tuned engine.
The utility has to have scrubbers. Joe Sixpack's crappy old pickup
is free to spew here in Michigan.

Cindy Hamilton

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:18:22 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"

<angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 12:07:21 PM UTC-5, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 06:32:07 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"
>> <angelica...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 7:32:22 AM UTC-5, Frank wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks for pointing out the inefficiency for gas in power generation. I
>> >> was under the misunderstanding that it was very high.
>> >>
>> >> The numbers you give undermine the whole electric car push by the greenies.
>> >
>> >Maybe. I certainly wouldn't mind it if nobody had tailpipe emissions and
>> >it was all transferred to the electric power generation facility.
>> >
>> >Cindy Hamilton
>> Out of sight out of mind huh?
>>
>> OTOH we still make a lot of electricity with coal and a modern EFI car
>> engine is much cleaner than a soft coal plant and much more efficient.
>
>I think my utility uses mainly natural gas.

>Cindy Hamilton


Michigan seems to have a ~ 3-way split :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Michigan

Sources of Michigan utility-scale electricity generation:
full-year 2020

Natural Gas (32.8%)
Nuclear (28.9%)
Coal (26.7%)
Wind (6.4%)
Hydroelectric (1.7%)
Biomass (2.1%)
Solar (0.3%)
Petroleum (0.1%)

I thought hydro might be a little more ! ?
Ontario is ~ 23 % hydro ..
John T.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:36:15 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)

wrote:

>gfre...@aol.com writes:
>>On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:52:59 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>wrote:
>
>>
>>>It is true that Floridians don't pay the full cost of their
>>>electricity. But that will change.
>>
>>Who pays the rest? Explain.
>
>While you'll likely disagree:
>
>https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/hidden-costs-fossil-fuels

So it is just the normal political posturing. You can point to similar
hidden costs in any electricity generation method. Most "green" energy
involves a lot of back end costs when the panels or turbines are at
end of life and get dismantled. That gets added to the initial
manufacturing pollution and the tax subsidies.
The worst example is nuclear but wind and solar are not far behind.

FPL is a big adopter of solar tho. I doubt it is a big player in the
end. We mostly use nat gas these days. It is way better than the
bunker oil plant we had before, except for the manatees. The gas plant
is so efficient, they are not pumping enough waste heat into the
river.

[gfre...@aol.com]

Welfare for the rich

[gfre...@aol.com]

The technology is not really there yet for nuclear. The end to end
costs are prohibitive even in the power they produced was free. If you
are willing to live with burying the waste and making a permanent
monument out of the decommissioned plants. If they could better
address the back end cost it might be a player. Unfortunately wind and
solar have a back end cost too.
The claim that there were 14,000 abandoned wind turbines was debunked
but they don't want to admit how many there actually are. The big
problem is the cost of taking them down far exceeds any scrap
(recycle) value of the parts and the blades end up being solid waste.
The prediction that they last 20-30 years also isn't working out in
actual practice. The offshore farms are going to be crap in a decade,
if they last that long, particularly if they try it in warm water.
Anyone with a boat understands how hard it is to have anything in salt
water. The warmer the water, the worse it is.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 12:18:22 -0800 (PST), "angelica...@yahoo.com"

That is probably not an EFI engine unless he is just ignoring the
check engine light. These days emission testing is just scanning the
ECU for codes.

[Rod Speed]

Frank <fr...@frank.net> wrote
> Ed Pawlowski wrote

Not if you have enough of a clue to use nukes.

Still have the raping of the environment to get the lithium etc tho.

[Frank]

Would not be so here in Delaware as emissions testing for car
registration is required. I see it is not required in Michigan. I think
some states may not require it in less populated regions.

[Rod Speed]

Scott Lurndal <sc...@slp53.sl.home> wrote

But doesn’t do that when the outside temp is well below freezing.

[gfre...@aol.com]

How much of that is Niagara?
I assume you get a piece of that.

[gfre...@aol.com]

I bet the next generation of cars will log out the ECU online without
you even being able to stop it. It is really just a data path problem
now and when cars are "connected" it won't be a problem. I bet a car
with "OnStar" or any similar connectivity can do that now. Then it
would just be the government polling your car and getting the data.

If you are not throwing codes, they assume you are clean.

[rbowman]

I've sometimes wondered just what comes out of tailpipes these days. My
car's exhaust has almost a vinegar smell. I sometimes miss the aroma of
burning 30W oil and too rich carburetors.

[rbowman]

On 11/28/2021 01:18 PM, angelica...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Makes me faintly nauseated to get behind some poorly-tuned engine.
> The utility has to have scrubbers. Joe Sixpack's crappy old pickup
> is free to spew here in Michigan.

A side-by-side pulled up behind me at a traffic light today. I was glad
I was in front of him since he was producing a huge cloud of smoke. I
didn't think they used two-strokes in them but it reminded me of the
Saab 93 mosquito fogger I used to see around town.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

Beck 1 500 Niagara
Beck 2 1500 Niagara
Pump Genny 175 Niagara

= 26 % of Ontario's total of 8130 MW hydroelectric capacity

Decew 167 < not Niagara but nearby Welland Canal >

Quebec's James Bay Project is a biggie :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bay_Project

John T.

[gfre...@aol.com]

I was just pointing out they don't have a Niagara Falls in Michigan.
Hydro is pretty much built out. You would never get permits to build
another Hoover Dam. Environmental impact statements would be ugly.
We are taking out small hydro plants to restore fish migration.
That's why I mentioned the Manatees at our (and also all coastal power
plants). They are already making concessions to the manatee huggers
and artificially heating the water to bunker oil levels on cold nights
so the manatees will have a warm place to winter over. If the plant
was removed, we would still be burning fossil fuels to heat the water
for the manatee.

[Peeler]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:41:15 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better.
Since when did arguing with a troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving
the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743...@news.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 11:03:25 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

williamwright addressing trolling Rodent Speed:
"This is getting beyond ridiculous now. You're trying to prove black's
white. You're arguing with someone who has been involved with the issues all
his working life when you clearly have no knowledge at all. I think you're
just being a pillock for the sake of it. You clearly don't actually believe
your own words. You must have a very empty life, and a sad embittered soul.
MID: <j08o6b...@mid.individual.net>

[Frank]

A single malfunctioning vehicle may pollute more than scores of cars.
Police like with a radar detector type device could flag these vehicles
and ticket them.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

Many of our hydroelectric plants were built long before
environmental assessments existed.
Beck 1 1922
Beck 2 1954
Abitibi Canyon 1936
Kakabeka 1906
etc etc
I would have thought that Michigan might have a few also.

I once worked at the still-operating 25 Hertz plant
at the foot-of-The-Falls built in 1905 :

https://www.niagarafallstourism.com/blog/the-history-of-the-ontario-power-generating-plant/

John T.

[gfre...@aol.com]

The environmentalists are actually forcing the removal of hundreds of
older FDR era dams in the US to restore natural river flows. Between
that and the Colorado river going dry the US hydro capacity is
actually going to be decreasing. I don't think we built made a hydro
dam since the Johnson administration and any increase in capacity is
only from improving the turbines on existing dams.
We seem to have a dispute between the two branches of environmentalism
there. Are we going to stop carbon or save animals.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

>
>The environmentalists are actually forcing the removal of hundreds of

>older FDR era dams in the US to restore natural river flows. .


Old dams ?
.. or functioning hydroelectric generating stations ?
... any cites for your statement ? seems hokey to me.
John T.

[Scott Lurndal]

It's fretwell, who believes that facts get in the way of his
opinions.

https://www.americanrivers.org/2021/02/69-dams-removed-in-2020/

The _vast_ majority of dams removed since 1912 (1,797 removed)
are small and never provided any significant hydro power production.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:41:29 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Thanks for the link.
In my area it seems like the old dams get assessed for removal
when the cost of upkeep or reconstruction warrants it - then
the years of study & meetings & consultants etc begin.
John T.

[gfre...@aol.com]

This is the top hit on Duck after you get past the ads for dams at
Amazon etc.


https://www.waterpowermagazine.com/features/featuredecommissioning-dams-costs-and-trends

You can dig down for more if you like.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:41:29 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

That is a bigger number than my article cited (350)

I am guessing a lot of that 1800 were not hydro power dams.
At any rate that power is usually going to be made up for with natural
gas. (we hope, not coal)
5-10 MW is still 5-10MW and demand is not going down any time soon. If
we were talking about a 10mw wind farm or solar array you would think
it was significant.

The fact still remains the environmental community seems split on
whether carbon is a bigger issue than wildlife. As I said, we are
using nat gas to heat water for manatees because that plant is more
efficient than the bunker oil plant it replaced and now the manatees
it attracts are dying of cold stress and starvation. (a record number
of manatee I might add). That "natural" cause has eclipsed boat
strikes, lock injuries and other man made causes of death in the last
couple years. The manatee huggers are blaming lake O sugar farmers but
they ignore the fact that a lot of these deaths are far from lake O
discharge points and nobody will address what the grazing potential is
in the areas near the power plants close enough for a leisurely swim
without freezing to death. The manatee may have simply multiplied up
to the limits of their food supply and Darwin is in charge. Now the
debate is whether we should be feeding them. (a federal crime).

but I digress.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:11:36 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

>https://www.waterpowermagazine.com/features/featuredecommissioning-dams-costs-and-trends


Thanks for the link, but this link sure doesn't support what you
said ... quite the opposite.

"Several observations are immediately apparent from the data on hydro
dams removed to date:
The dams tend to be of moderate height (range 5m to 18m).
Most of the dams had a small installed generating capacity (0.4 to
10MW).
The dams are reasonably old (average age 87 years at removal).
Many of the hydro schemes had already been retired at the time of
removal (86%) "

John T.

[gfre...@aol.com]

Ah yes, the government couldn't put out a dumpster fire without having
a study, meetings and consultants evaluating the idea.

[gfre...@aol.com]

What didn't agree with what I said?
87 years old is clearly in the FDR era and I never said they were big
dams. If there are a lot of them (350) that adds up to a lot. I do
believe some are point specific, powering a plant or something but
that load still gets dumped back onto the grid.
If the dam is removed, working or not, there is no way to replace it.

[rbowman]

https://clarkfork.org/our-work/what-we-do/restore-the-best/confluence/

High water in '96, iirc, threatened to breach the dam. Because of its
location it had acted as a settling pond for the heavy metals from the
copper operations at Butte and Anaconda and letting those loose would be
a disaster for the fishery. Even now you're advised to limit the amount
of fish you eat from the Clark Fork and to skip the pike altogether. Too
bad, since there are some nice pike.

https://bonnermilltownhistory.org/the-milltown-dam

Of course it was a long fight with ARCO. In the best capitalist
tradition when they bought Anaconda Copper they thought they were only
buying the assets not the liabilities.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:21:06 -0700, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

I have no trouble believing that old dams are being deconstructed
but Fretwell implied that hydroelectric generation was being lost.
... quite miniscule amounts maybe. as the other links stated.
John T.

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:21:06 -0700, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

Polluted silt was a factor in a dam near me also - even though it
was just a weir - but it was about 120 years old on a river that
flowed by the biggest textile factory in the British Empire
during the war .. go figure.
John T.

[gfre...@aol.com]

It is not the amount per dam, just the number of them. 0.5 MW here and
10MW there pretty soon you have a shitload of watts.
It is the argument they make for solar arrays.
Florida as 7.7 GW of solar installed, spread out over almost 100,000
separate installations.
https://seia.org/states-map
It is unclear if that is peak watts or the average.
I am guessing peak. That is only an hour or so a day with it averaging
~6x peak in KW/H.
A dam runs 24/7, not just when the sun is shining.

[rbowman]

On 11/29/2021 07:46 PM, hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
> Polluted silt was a factor in a dam near me also - even though it
> was just a weir - but it was about 120 years old on a river that
> flowed by the biggest textile factory in the British Empire
> during the war .. go figure.

My electricity comes from the Bonneville Power Authority. I have to
wonder what the dams on the Columbia have collected over the years. Not
that Hanford ever had a leak,,,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

[Peeler]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:21:06 -0700, rbowman wrote:


> https://clarkfork.org/our-work/what-we-do/restore-the-best/confluence/
>
> High water in '96, iirc, threatened to breach the dam. Because of its
> location it had acted as a settling pond for the heavy metals from the
> copper operations at Butte and Anaconda and letting those loose would be
> a disaster for the fishery. Even now you're advised to limit the amount
> of fish you eat from the Clark Fork and to skip the pike altogether. Too
> bad, since there are some nice pike.
>
> https://bonnermilltownhistory.org/the-milltown-dam
>
> Of course it was a long fight with ARCO. In the best capitalist
> tradition when they bought Anaconda Copper they thought they were only
> buying the assets not the liabilities.

There's just NOTHING you will NOT blather about in your inimitable wordy
manner, eh, senile gossip? <G>

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 22:14:11 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> My electricity comes from the Bonneville Power Authority. I have to
> wonder what the dams on the Columbia have collected over the years. Not
> that Hanford ever had a leak,,,

"Bonneville Power Authority" <BG>. Wow, three great-sounding words in a row.
You are outdoing yourself again, senile blabbermouth.