Is there an equation to compare heating costs of propane versus electricity to heat a bedroom?

[Patrick]

Is there an equation to compare heating costs of propane versus
electricity?
Being an empty nester, I have a house that used to have four kids and two
parents down to only the two parents, so I'm wondering if it's efficient
to just heat the bedroom and letting the rest go cold (SF Bay Area temps).
<https://i.postimg.cc/gjJybGM7/heater01.jpg>

Both will heat a room but one is 1500 Watts max at about 25 cents per
killowatt hour while the other is 9000 BTU max at ~$4 per gallon propane.
<https://i.postimg.cc/pXmQ0X5h/heater04.jpg>

Initial hardware costs were a bit more for the propane than electric.

Initial cost for the electric heater was $50+$5=$60 + ~$0.25/kilowatt hour.
<https://i.postimg.cc/XNHccyq6/heater03.jpg>

The propane heater cost $80 and the 20# tank cost $43 = $123+$12=$135
<https://i.postimg.cc/VvVqY2pk/heater02.jpg>
Although I will probably also purchase the $42 refill kit which comes
with the one pount reusable propane tank for in-house convenience.
refill kit so that I can fill the 1 pounder from the 20 pounder tank.
<https://www.homedepot.com/p/Flame-King-1-lb-Refillable-Propane-Cylinder-with-Refill-Kit-YSN1LBKT/305539519>

One issue is carbon monoxide but the unit says it's safe for indoor use.
But how do I figure out which is better in terms of cost efficiency?

BTW, this is my first fill ever of a propane tank where they charged me
$4/gallon and they put in 4.4 gallons but why does the tank say this?
<https://i.postimg.cc/4d3HmBz7/heater05.jpg>
"Save time and money. Did you know. New propane tanks need to be purged
(air evacuated) when filled? This tank is pre-purged."
If you bought a tank that was NOT purged, how would they purge it?

What information do I need to determine which is more cost efficient
(when used to heat up a typical bedroom in a California winter)?

1. Propane is ~$4/gallon. Electricity is ~$0.25/kWh

2. Costco Item #1556535 Mr Heater Portable Buddy 4000/9000BTU
Model MH9BX [SKU 0 89301 00975 2]
$80 + ~10%tax = ~$100 (rounding)

3. Costco Item #261685 Flame King 20LB Empty Propane Tank w/OPD & Gauge
$43 + ~10%tax = ~$50 (rounding)

4. Costco Item #1415862 Vornado Automatic Home Room Heater 750/1500W
Model AWRH (EH1-0097-85) [SKU 0 43765 01507 0]
$50 + ~10%tax = ~$50 (rounding)

Is there an equation that allows me to compare heating costs?

[rbowman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 08:55:32 +0800, Patrick wrote:

> Although I will probably also purchase the $42 refill kit which comes
> with the one pount reusable propane tank for in-house convenience.
> refill kit so that I can fill the 1 pounder from the 20 pounder tank.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Mr-Heater-9000-BTU-Portable-Radiant-Propane-
Heater/3353726

"Approximate 2.4 hour run time on high and 5.4 hour on low with 1 lb
cylinder"

I definitely don't have Bay area temperatures. I have a Big Buddy as a
backup with the 20# tank. It takes a 1# canister but that would be useless
to me. Another consideration is the propane heater is either on high or
low. There is no temperature control.

While I have a forced air gas furnace it is noisy so unless it's very cold
i use 2 1500W electric heaters.

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Space-Heaters/
Lasko/Thermostat/N-5yc1vZc4lhZvqZ1z0ofgf

I saw the Vornado at costco and wasn't impressed. I've had very good luck
with the Lasko brand.

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Space-Heaters/
Lasko/Thermostat/N-5yc1vZc4lhZvqZ1z0ofgf

For a few bucks more you get something where you can set the temperature
anywhere from 65 to 85 degrees and it will cycle on and off to maintain
the set point. Most have a timer function and rotate. I don't use the
rotate feature often but it could be handy.

Sorry I didn't answer your question about cost but for convenience it's
electric hands down.

[hub...@ccanoemail.com]

>
>Is there an equation that allows me to compare heating costs?
>

Yep.
But heating costs are not the problem.
John T.

[Patrick]

On 12 Oct 2023 01:42:41 GMT, rbowman wrote:
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/Mr-Heater-9000-BTU-Portable-Radiant-Propane-
> Heater/3353726
>
> "Approximate 2.4 hour run time on high and 5.4 hour on low with 1 lb
> cylinder"

Thank you for that information about the 5.4 hours being on the low setting
because the box only says 5.4 hours per pound and not what setting it's at.

How the heck do they run these things indoors without carbon monoxide gas?

> I definitely don't have Bay area temperatures. I have a Big Buddy as a
> backup with the 20# tank. It takes a 1# canister but that would be useless
> to me. Another consideration is the propane heater is either on high or
> low. There is no temperature control.

It's GREAT that you have experience with the Big Buddy. Can I ask how well
it heats up a room? Do you need to set it on high or can you leave it low?

> While I have a forced air gas furnace it is noisy so unless it's very cold
> i use 2 1500W electric heaters.
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Space-Heaters/
> Lasko/Thermostat/N-5yc1vZc4lhZvqZ1z0ofgf
>
> I saw the Vornado at costco and wasn't impressed. I've had very good luck
> with the Lasko brand.
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Space-Heaters/
> Lasko/Thermostat/N-5yc1vZc4lhZvqZ1z0ofgf

It was on sale but I've seen the Lasko at Costco on sale in the past too.
https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Space-Heaters/Lasko/Thermostat/N-5yc1vZc4lhZvqZ1z0ofgf

> For a few bucks more you get something where you can set the temperature
> anywhere from 65 to 85 degrees and it will cycle on and off to maintain
> the set point. Most have a timer function and rotate. I don't use the
> rotate feature often but it could be handy.

It's good to know that a key difference is the propane heater is like a
fire in that it's all or nothing while the electric heater is controlled.

> Sorry I didn't answer your question about cost but for convenience it's
> electric hands down.

It's a LOT cheaper in initial costs (about $50 versus about $150 to $200).
But I wonder what the respective costs are to run them to heat a room?

How long would it take the Big Buddy to heat a typical bedroom anyway?

[Ed P]

On 10/11/2023 8:55 PM, Patrick wrote:
> Is there an equation to compare heating costs of propane versus
> electricity?
> Being an empty nester, I have a house that used to have four kids and two
> parents down to only the two parents, so I'm wondering if it's efficient
> to just heat the bedroom and letting the rest go cold (SF Bay Area
temps).
> <https://i.postimg.cc/gjJybGM7/heater01.jpg>
>
> Both will heat a room but one is 1500 Watts max at about 25 cents per
> killowatt hour while the other is 9000 BTU max at ~$4 per gallon propane.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/pXmQ0X5h/heater04.jpg>
>

There are some web sites that will help you. No matter the source, you
will need X Btu to heat the room. Next, compare the cost to make a
given amount of Btu.

> Initial hardware costs were a bit more for the propane than electric.

Ignore initial cost for now. If the unit lasts 5 to 10 years, it is minimal.

>
> BTW, this is my first fill ever of a propane tank where they charged me
> $4/gallon and they put in 4.4 gallons but why does the tank say this?
> <https://i.postimg.cc/4d3HmBz7/heater05.jpg>
> "Save time and money. Did you know. New propane tanks need to be purged
> (air evacuated) when filled? This tank is pre-purged."
> If you bought a tank that was NOT purged, how would they purge it?

There is a vent valve.. They open the vent and pump propane into the
tank and let it vent to the air and be wasted. You pay for that waste,
of course.

>
> What information do I need to determine which is more cost efficient
> (when used to heat up a typical bedroom in a California winter)?
>
> 1. Propane is ~$4/gallon. Electricity is ~$0.25/kWh

Propane produces 91,452 Btu/gallon
1 kW of electric makes about 3400 Btu.

roughly 26.9 kW = 1 gallon of propane.

Or. $6.50 of electric to make the $4 propane.

>
> Is there an equation that allows me to compare heating costs?

Use the above numbers and figure how much heat you will need. That is
the tough part but there are some on line calculators.

Factor in a few other things. Convenience. You have to cart around
tanks, fill them, handle them. If you close off the unused rooms and
continued with the existing central heat, how would the savings be?
Worth the effort?

[Bob F]

Is this guy talking about heating a room with an unvented propane
heater? Sounds crazy to me.

Or is he talking about a space heater compared to heating the whole
house with the propane furnace?

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 12 Oct 2023 08:55:32 +0800, Patrick

<pat...@oleary.com> wrote:

>Is there an equation to compare heating costs of propane versus
>electricity?
>Being an empty nester, I have a house that used to have four kids and two
>parents down to only the two parents, so I'm wondering if it's efficient
>to just heat the bedroom and letting the rest go cold (SF Bay Area temps).
> <https://i.postimg.cc/gjJybGM7/heater01.jpg>
>
>Both will heat a room but one is 1500 Watts max at about 25

I was kicked out of arithmetic class in the 3rd grade. They never let
me back in so I can't help you with sifering, but I can say that I close
the heated air vent and shut the door to one bedroom when it gets cold,
and I put a towel under the door, and I'm dang sure it saves me some
money. I use the other 2 brs and the indoor privy, and there are no
doors to the other rooms, but I've done what I can.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Good point, I'm not sure. I'd not be worried about a couple of hours of
temporary heat but certainly don't want one in a sealed room, especially
if I'm going to sleep.

[Patrick]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:52:55 -0400, Ed P wrote:
> Propane produces 91,452 Btu/gallon
> 1 kW of electric makes about 3400 Btu.
>
> roughly 26.9 kW = 1 gallon of propane.
>
> Or. $6.50 of electric to make the $4 propane.

Thanks for that starter information where what I did was use your numbers
to check myself, and then I ran the numbers as shown below, which concluded
that they both cost almost exactly the same per hour - but the propane
heater puts out more heat per hour.

The rest of what I wrote below is how I came to that conclusion where I
accept ahead of time that I could have made a math error (which is why I
tried to check my numbers against your numbers as a double check).

Since propane comes in 1-pound & 20-pound sizes, I'll do that math.
And since the electric heater is 750 Watt and 1500 Watt, I'll use that.
Likewise, the propane heater is 4000BTU and 9000BTU so I'll use that.
Lastly I pay about $4/gallon for propane & $0.25/kWH so I'll use that.

And a 20-pound propane tank (19.74 pounds, actually) is about 4.7 gallons
of propane (where I received 4.4 gallons today but an exchange is usually
only filled to about 3.5 gallons). Since 1 gallon of propane is ~4.11 lb at
77 degrees F, then a 1 pound propane canister is just under 32 ounces, or a
quart (although I'll be loose with the sig figs).

One gallon of propane is 91,452 BTU so a one-pound canister is 0.243309
times that which is 22,251 BTU. A 20-pound tank filled with 4.4 gallons of
propane would be 402,389 BTU (I'm cutting and pasting so don't worry about
sig figs for now).

1 watt = 3.412141633 BTU/hour from your numbers (thanks!)

So that 1-pound propane canister containing 22,251 BTU is ~6.5 kWh.
The 20-pound propane tank of 402,389 BTU is ~118 kWh.

At $0.25 per kWh, the 1-pound cylinder is ~$1.63 worth of electricity.
The 20-pound propane tank is ~$29.50 worth of PG&E electricity.

My 20-pound tank cost about $20 to fill today, so that's about a dollar per
pound of propane (using easy numbers).

The ads for the propane heater show how long it runs on a tank.

<https://www.lowes.com/pd/Mr-Heater-9000-BTU-Portable-Radiant-Propane-Heater/3353726>

"2.4 hour run time on high and 5.4 hour on low with 1 lb cylinder"

Now comes the problem of how long it takes to heat a room, given one heater
is 750W/1500W and the other heater is 4000BTU/9000BTU.

Back to the conversion factor of 1 watt = 3.412141633 BTU/hour...
750 Watts is 2,559 BTU/hour; 1500 Watts is 5,118 BTU/hour.
4000 BTU is 1,172 Watts; 9000 BTU is 2,638 Watts.

Comparing wattage, they're kind of similar in heat output, with the propane
heater being about 1-1/2 times hotter on low & 1-3/4 times hotter on high
which doesn't seem all that much of a difference but clearly the propane
heater is "hotter" per hour than the electric.

Using the runtime figures of 2.4 hours on high per pound, that's about 0.42
pounds of propane per hour. For runtimes of 5.4 hours on low, that's 0.18
pounds per hour.

Since the 20-pound tank cost about $20 to fill today, that's a dollar a
pound, which means it would cost $0.42/hour on high and about $0.18/hour to
run the propane heater on low.

Meanwhile, the electric heater at 25 cents per kWh is about $0.38 per hour
on high and about $0.19/hour on low.

Hmmmm... assuming no boo boos, they're almost exactly the same price per
hour (although the propane heater outputs from about 1-1/2 more heat per
hour to about 1-3/4 more heat per hour).

Interesting conclusion... if it's correct.

Both cost about the same per hour but the propane puts out a bit more heat.

[Patrick]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 23:54:37 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> Is this guy talking about heating a room with an unvented propane
>> heater? Sounds crazy to me.
>>
>> Or is he talking about a space heater compared to heating the whole
>> house with the propane furnace?
>>
>
> Good point, I'm not sure. I'd not be worried about a couple of hours of
> temporary heat but certainly don't want one in a sealed room, especially
> if I'm going to sleep.

Good question.

I don't know the terminology of a "space heater" as that's the same thing
(to me) as heating a room - and whether or not it's vented is an issue but
every room is vented by the very nature of rooms with open doors and
heating systems that are vented and fireplaces that are chocked open, etc.

However, if you look at the photos, there's absolutely no doubt the heater
is *intended* to be used indoors. It says so right on the box. Everywhere.

Look at the photo and let me know if this is a "space heater" or a "room
heater" because I do not know the difference.
https://i.postimg.cc/gjJybGM7/heater01.jpg

Does that look like a "space heater" or a "room heater" to you?
https://i.postimg.cc/VvVqY2pk/heater02.jpg

[Ed Pawlowski]

Don't get hung up on the cost per hour. If one has to run for two hours
at $1 per hour it is cheaper than a heater that runs one hour at $3 per
hour. Btu is what matters. How long does it make to make say, 30,000
Btu and what is the cost of it.

[Patrick]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 00:47:43 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> Both cost about the same per hour but the propane puts out a bit more heat.
>
> Don't get hung up on the cost per hour. If one has to run for two hours
> at $1 per hour it is cheaper than a heater that runs one hour at $3 per
> hour. Btu is what matters. How long does it make to make say, 30,000
> Btu and what is the cost of it.

OK. That seems simple enough. Are you intimating that it takes about 30,000
BTU to heat up a typical room?

I have to admit that I was starting to get hung up on all the conversions!
That's why I had asked for a simple equation from the start of this quest.

750 Watts is 2,559 BTU/hour; 1500 Watts is 5,118 BTU/hour.
4000 BTU is 1,172 Watts; 9000 BTU is 2,638 Watts.

To get 30,000 BTU per "heating session" is the following I think.

Propane Heater: high = 3.33 hours, low = 7.5 hours
Electric Heater: high = 5.86 hours, low = 11.7 hours

The propane is about 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 faster to get to 30,000 BTU.

(If I did the math right.)

[Patrick]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:37:48 -0400, hub...@ccanoemail.com wrote:
> But heating costs are not the problem.

I'm acutely aware carbon monoxide is a silent killer.

I was talking to a friend about this and he said the propane heater
probably uses a catalyst since the packaging clearly states it's designed
for indoor use, and there's no mention on the box about carbon monoxide.

Still, it seems prudent to have a carbon monoxide sensor in the room.

Even so, the quest is for the math right now where I think I found a
simpler way to assess it given my friend told me it takes him about one to
two hours to heat up his room nice and toasty in the winter with his 1,500
Watt Lasko electric heater (he said he has the fat one and the thin one
where he says they both do the same thing only the fat one twists and turns
and the louvers dance for you but he said none of that matters as all he
does is leave it in the static position for both).

From before...
Electric 1500 Watts is 5,118 BTU/hour; 750 Watts is 2,559 BTU/hour.
Propane 9000 BTU is 2,638 Watts; 4000 BTU is 1,172 Watts.

So if he's running 1,500 Watts for an hour or two to heat a room from cold
to toasty, that is about 5,000 to 10,000 BTU if my head math is right.

Using Ed's question, how long does it take to add 10,000 BTU of heat to a
room?

Propane Heater: high = 1.11 hours, low = 2.5 hours
Electric Heater: high = 1.95 hours, low = 3.9 hours

The propane is about 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 faster to get to 10,000 BTU.

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 01:42:41 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> https://www.lowes.com/pd/Mr-Heater-9000-BTU-Portable-Radiant-Propane-
> Heater/3353726
>
> "Approximate 2.4 hour run time on high and 5.4 hour on low with 1 lb
> cylinder"
>
> I definitely don't have Bay area temperatures. I have a Big Buddy as a
> backup with the 20# tank. It takes a 1# canister but that would be useless
> to me. Another consideration is the propane heater is either on high or
> low. There is no temperature control.
>
> While I have a forced air gas furnace it is noisy so unless it's very cold
> i use 2 1500W electric heaters.
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Space-Heaters/
> Lasko/Thermostat/N-5yc1vZc4lhZvqZ1z0ofgf
>
> I saw the Vornado at costco and wasn't impressed. I've had very good luck
> with the Lasko brand.
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Space-Heaters/
> Lasko/Thermostat/N-5yc1vZc4lhZvqZ1z0ofgf

Hilarious, this endlessly bullshitting self-admiring senile bigmouth
actually claimed today again that he's holding down a job!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA...!!!

--
More of the resident bigmouth's usual idiotic babble and gossip:
I'm not saying my father and uncle wouldn't have drank Genesee beer
without Miss Genny but it certainly didn't hurt. Stanton's was the
hometown brewery but it closed in '50. There was a Schaefer brewery in
Albany but their product was considered a step up from cat piss.

My preference was Rheingold on tap"

MID: <k9mnmm...@mid.individual.net>

[trader_4]

If you think that's crazy, wait until you hear about kerosene space heaters.
Or have the libs banned those?

[trader_4]

It's also one room in the SF bay area which is a moderate climate, not ND.
I looked at Patrick's analysis, didn't check it completely, but at first glance
it looks and feels right. The advantage he pointed out, that the BTU output
of the propane unit is higher, so it can heat the room faster is the main advantage.
The disadvantage, I'd much prefer electric for safety and no combustion
byproducts. Odd that no one has commented on the fact that the libs want to
ban natural gas for cooking, but gas space heaters are widely used. Which
exposes people to more combustion products? A stove that's used for a couple
of hours or a space heater in a closed room?

[Scott Lurndal]

trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> writes:
>On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 12:47:51=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wr=
>ote:

> Odd that no one has commented on the fact that the libs want to
>ban natural gas for cooking

"libs" as a perjorative is counter-productive and juvenile.

Elected officials in certain localities understand that natural
gas is a fundamentally limited commodity, whose scarcity will only
increase over the next decades. So those officials have chosen
to support alternative energy sources in _future_ construction. They
haven't banned existing uses of natural gas. Those officials are
forward-looking and forward-thinking.

>, but gas space heaters are widely used.

You'll need to support your "widely used" characterization of non-vented
natural gas and/or propane space heaters. In my experience they're primarily
used in construction sites with good ventilation, not in homes.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 10:54:56 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> writes:
> >On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 12:47:51=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wr=
> >ote:
> > Odd that no one has commented on the fact that the libs want to
> >ban natural gas for cooking
> "libs" as a perjorative is counter-productive and juvenile.

What's pejorative about it? It's just short for liberals. Are you ashamed of what you are?

>
> Elected officials in certain localities understand that natural
> gas is a fundamentally limited commodity, whose scarcity will only
> increase over the next decades. So those officials have chosen
> to support alternative energy sources in _future_ construction. They
> haven't banned existing uses of natural gas. Those officials are
> forward-looking and forward-thinking.

So then they were lying a few months ago when they claimed the issue was unsafe
pollutants from stoves that were hazardous to human health when inhaled inside the house?

> >, but gas space heaters are widely used.
> You'll need to support your "widely used" characterization of non-vented
> natural gas and/or propane space heaters. In my experience they're primarily
> used in construction sites with good ventilation, not in homes.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HearthSense-30-000-BTU-Ventless-Dual-Fuel-Blue-Flame-Heater-With-Base-and-Blower-T-Stat-Control-140324/313801057

The Hearth Sense ventless blue flame gas wall space heater operates on Natural Gas OR Liquid Propane Gas and gives you 30,000 Maximum BTU of reliable supplemental heat that can heat up to 1,000 sq. ft of living space. Blue flame vent-free gas space heaters are clean burning, fuel efficient and safe to use. This gas heater works much like a central heating system in that it heats the air in the room by circulating warm comfortable air throughout the room. This blue flame cabinet heater is equipped with a thermostat which allows you to maintain and control the desired room temperature.

But then you should have known that, the OP found one and is considering using it.
Do you think they found it in some back alley illegal market?

[Cindy Hamilton]

On 2023-10-12, trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 10:54:56 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> writes:
>> >On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 12:47:51=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wr=
>> >ote:
>> > Odd that no one has commented on the fact that the libs want to
>> >ban natural gas for cooking
>> "libs" as a perjorative is counter-productive and juvenile.
>
> What's pejorative about it? It's just short for liberals. Are you ashamed of what you are?

It certainly sells short the variety of viewpoints that liberals have.
They're like a herd of cats.

>> Elected officials in certain localities understand that natural
>> gas is a fundamentally limited commodity, whose scarcity will only
>> increase over the next decades. So those officials have chosen
>> to support alternative energy sources in _future_ construction. They
>> haven't banned existing uses of natural gas. Those officials are
>> forward-looking and forward-thinking.
>
> So then they were lying a few months ago when they claimed the issue was unsafe
> pollutants from stoves that were hazardous to human health when inhaled inside the house?

No. It's both.

--
Cindy Hamilton

[rbowman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 10:49:05 +0800, Patrick wrote:


> How the heck do they run these things indoors without carbon monoxide
> gas?

The catalytic process doesn't produce CO at dangerous levels. It does
consume oxygen so it can't be used in a perfectly sealed area but few
houses qualify. They do shut down if the O2 is depleted too much.

> It's GREAT that you have experience with the Big Buddy. Can I ask how
> well it heats up a room? Do you need to set it on high or can you leave
> it low?

It will keep about 240 sq ft that is not very well insulated to 65 - 70
degrees with a outside temperature of 32. The high/low is the problem.
There are two catalytic panels, one of which is used for low, both for
high. When it gets too warm, throttling it down to low is necessary. Then
the area starts to cool. Basically you become the thermostat with a lot of
hysteresis.

The Big Buddy does have a fan option powered by D cells. I have not used
it but for a longer term I'd hack it to use an external power supply or a
car battery if a power outage was the problem.

I've also used it in my shed/shop which is about 100 sq ft and complutely
uninsulated with ambient temps below 32. High will drive you out in short
order with the same bang-bang control problem.

The current Big Buddy advertises 4000/9000/18000 BTU but mine is only
9000/18000. For the typical Bay temperatures 9000 will definitely heat a
room unless you live in a drafty castle.

[rbowman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 06:47:43 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

> If you think that's crazy, wait until you hear about kerosene space
> heaters.
> Or have the libs banned those?

The price of kerosene has effectively banned them. They're even worse than
the Mr. Heater propane type being discussed since they don't really work
well except full on.

[rbowman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 06:54:16 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

> It's also one room in the SF bay area which is a moderate climate, not
> ND.
> I looked at Patrick's analysis, didn't check it completely, but at first
> glance it looks and feels right. The advantage he pointed out, that
> the BTU output of the propane unit is higher, so it can heat the room
> faster is the main advantage.

Don't get hung up on faster if the goal is to maintain a comfortable
temperature 24/7.

[Jim Joyce]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 06:47:43 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net>
wrote:

>If you think that's crazy, wait until you hear about kerosene space heaters.

Growing up, we had a couple of kerosene space heaters but we apparently weren't
worried about carbon monoxide because the house was a bit drafty. When the power
would go out during a blizzard, we'd use kerosene lanterns because candles
wouldn't stay lit.

My mother used to say that we lived in a corn crib, but I'm guessing most won't
get that reference.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <koqir3...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
says...

>
> It will keep about 240 sq ft that is not very well insulated to 65 - 70
> degrees with a outside temperature of 32. The high/low is the problem.
> There are two catalytic panels, one of which is used for low, both for
> high. When it gets too warm, throttling it down to low is necessary. Then
> the area starts to cool. Basically you become the thermostat with a lot of
> hysteresis.
>
>

That system seems like what I installed in my house that had natural
gas. There was a natural gas furnace for thr house. At one end was a
single carport that was enclosed, no heat or AC except what would com in
by the open door to the house.

I intalled a ventless heater that had 3 panels and you manually selected
the amount of heat by using one, two, or 3 panels.

I had tried heating that area with one of the kerosene heaters but it
left a smell in the house. The heater worked well otherwise.

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 15:48:51 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> The catalytic process doesn't produce CO at dangerous levels. It does
> consume oxygen so it can't be used in a perfectly sealed area but few
> houses qualify.

I doubt it will consume as much oxygen as your endlessly prattling
abnormally big mouth does every day, pathological blabbermouth. LOL

--
More of the resident senile bigmouth's idiotic "cool" blather:
"For reasons I can't recall I painted a spare bedroom in purple. It may
have had something to do with copious quantities of cheap Scotch."
MID: <k89lch...@mid.individual.net>

[Dean Hoffman]

I can't answer your question. Have you looked at heaters for recreational vehicles? Those might be enough for your climate.
A 20 gallon or so propane tank sounds way too small to be useful. You'll spend a lot of money getting refills. Rumor has it gasoline in California ain't cheap. I definitely wouldn't want a propane tank inside no matter the size.

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 15:52:27 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> The price of kerosene has effectively banned them. They're even worse than
> the Mr. Heater propane type being discussed since they don't really work
> well except full on.

Quite unlike your mouth that is ALWAYS full on. Right?

--
Trump-, Hitler- and Putin-sympathizer lowbrowwoman about Nazi-Germany's good
intentions:
"At the onset all Germany wanted was to build a road to East Prussia which
had been severed from Germany proper by the Danzig Corridor."
MID: <kabnetF...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 15:56:52 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

I suppose that temperature doesn't affect the output of your mouth, or does
it?

--
More of the resident senile gossip's absolutely idiotic endless blather
about herself:
"My family and I traveled cross country in '52, going out on the northern
route and returning mostly on Rt 66. We also traveled quite a bit as the
interstates were being built. It might have been slower but it was a lot
more interesting. Even now I prefer what William Least Heat-Moon called
the blue highways but it's difficult. Around here there are remnants of
the Mullan Road as frontage roads but I-90 was laid over most of it so
there is no continuous route. So far 93 hasn't been destroyed."
MID: <kae9iv...@mid.individual.net>

[Dean Hoffman]

One person here does. Dad's looked a lot like this. He parked his huge one ton truck in the open space. He converted it to a machine shed maybe a half century ago.
<https://www.pinterest.com/pin/242772236136141352/>

[Patrick]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:58:29 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> I had tried heating that area with one of the kerosene heaters but it
> left a smell in the house. The heater worked well otherwise.

Does the propane Big Buddy heater have the same kerosene smell?
I hope not.

I've smelled propane generator in action. They stink too. Different.
Not the mercapthol (or whatever they put in the unburned propane to make it
smell like rotten eggs but the burned smell is not like a wood fire is).

Does the Big Buddy stink that burned propane stink?
Or does the catalyst remove that burned propane stink too?

[Patrick]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 10:04:21 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman wrote:
> I can't answer your question.

I think I have the answer to the heating costs efficiency questions
thanks to the starting point conversion factor Ed & others provided.

Unless I did the math wrong, that particular $80 Costco Big Buddy propane
heater will cost the same per hour as that Costco electric heater will.

But that particular Costco propane heater will output about 1-1/2 times (on
low) more heat (BTU) to 1-3/4 times (on high) more heat in that same hour.

The propane equipment also costs ~3X more and has inherent risks indoors.
It's portable though. And works during a power outage.

But portability & power outages was never the goal.
The goal is indoor room heating (and to return one of the two I bought).

> A 20 gallon or so propane tank sounds way too small to be useful.

The box says it will last 108 hours on the 20-pound tank (set to low).
But I'd probably want to use the 1-pound canisters (5.4 hours on low).

> You'll spend a lot of money getting refills.

In the OP I mentioned a sturdy ~$50 Home Depot refill jig for the 20-pound
to 1-pound refilling (which comes with one Flame King one-pound refillable
propane cylinder) but brass refill adapters are less than $10 online.
<https://www.amazon.com/GASPRO-Propane-Refill-Adapter-Bottles/dp/B01N3CWU1E/>

The 3rd choice for refilling a Flame King 1-pound cylinder is a $25 hose.
<https://www.amazon.com/Lapert-Upgraded-Propane-Extension-Pressure/dp/B09TQGGMC2/>

From the Home Depot test jig, I'm guessing you refill them upside down.
<https://www.homedepot.com/p/Flame-King-1-lb-Refillable-Propane-Cylinder-with-Refill-Kit-YSN1LBKT/305539519>

I paid $3.95/gallon for 4.4 gallons at the local U-Haul. The guy named
"Wilson" filled it up in just a few minutes. No waiting.

I thought they'd cool the tank (like they do when refilling scuba gear)
and then weigh the before and after, but Wilson has a machine (much like a
propane truck does) that measures output in gallons on a big odometer.

> I definitely wouldn't want a propane tank inside no matter the size.

Typical with Costco, a six-foot hose comes with the package that adapts the
20-pound propane tank to the one-pound propane cylinder side fitting.

I think a problem with that adapter hose might be potential fitting leaks.
But we can assume a leak will stink as long as the room is being attended.

[hub...@ccanoemail.com]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 08:55:32 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>

wrote:

>Is there an equation to compare heating costs of propane versus
>electricity?
>Being an empty nester, I have a house that used to have four kids and two
>parents down to only the two parents, so I'm wondering if it's efficient
>to just heat the bedroom and letting the rest go cold (SF Bay Area temps).

Be sure to advise your insurance company - if you plan to use
portable propane heaters in your home ..
John T.

[Jim Joyce]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 10:19:50 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman <dean...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Yep, I actually figured you'd be the one. Our house looked very similar to some
of those, with enough cracks and crevices that the wind would blow through the
house instead of around it. We were kids, we didn't know any different. We
thought it was normal for the water in the toilet to freeze. We were just happy
to finally have indoor plumbing (1964).

[trader_4]

A friend of mine has one that he uses in his house. He's in a retirement community
and his unit has electric heat. I would use one of those temporarily in some place
with ventilation, like a house under construction while working inside, that kind of
thing. But I wouldn't use one regularly for heating a home. I haven't been there when
it's going to see if there is any odor. Also he has to get clear kerosene for it and it's
about 20 miles to the nearest place for that. Apparently regular kerosene clogs up
the wick somehow.

[trader_4]

Another factor in favor of electric, no tank refilling. Having to haul that tank
around to get it refilled will become a pain, IMO.

[Patrick]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:29:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:
>> I think a problem with that adapter hose might be potential fitting leaks.
>> But we can assume a leak will stink as long as the room is being attended.
>
> Another factor in favor of electric, no tank refilling. Having to haul that tank
> around to get it refilled will become a pain, IMO.

The issue isn't hauling the tank around to get it refilled since the tank
only weighs 20 pounds empty. The refilling process is a five minute wait.
And the price of four dollars per gallon seems reasonable to me (is it?).

But having a forty pound (full) tank attached to the heater by a six foot
hose is a bit of an issue if you move the heater around from room to room.

The room I want to head has a fireplace in the middle so that's where
I'd put it. There isn't any electricity outlets on that central stack.

But now that I know the propane costs less per BTU but less than twice as
less, I may return the propane heater to Costco. I'm stuck with the tank.

What can you do with an already filled brand new 20-gallon propane tank?
It has to be hydro tested every 12 years according to Wilson at U-Haul.

I will probably buy a Flame King refillable 1-pound propane cylinder and
the ten-dollar brass adapter to refill it from the 20-pound propane tank.

At the rate I use the 1-pound propane cylinders (mostly for copper pipe
repairs or for heating things to bend them or melting stranded rope ends.

[Scott Lurndal]

Patrick <pat...@oleary.com> writes:
>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:29:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:
>>> I think a problem with that adapter hose might be potential fitting leaks.
>>> But we can assume a leak will stink as long as the room is being attended.
>>
>> Another factor in favor of electric, no tank refilling. Having to haul that tank
>> around to get it refilled will become a pain, IMO.
>
>The issue isn't hauling the tank around to get it refilled since the tank
>only weighs 20 pounds empty. The refilling process is a five minute wait.
>And the price of four dollars per gallon seems reasonable to me (is it?).
>
>But having a forty pound (full) tank attached to the heater by a six foot
>hose is a bit of an issue if you move the heater around from room to room.
>
>The room I want to head has a fireplace in the middle so that's where
>I'd put it. There isn't any electricity outlets on that central stack.
>
>But now that I know the propane costs less per BTU but less than twice as
>less, I may return the propane heater to Costco. I'm stuck with the tank.
>
>What can you do with an already filled brand new 20-gallon propane tank?

20 gallon? or 20 pound? A 20# tank holds about 4.6 gallons of propane.

Buy a propane grill and cook outside. Year round in the bay area.

[Wolf Greenblatt]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:06:08 -0400, hub...@ccanoemail.com wrote:
> Be sure to advise your insurance company - if you plan to use
> portable propane heaters in your home ..

What's with the ridiculous fabrications of scare tactics?

Do you work for "climate science" politicians?
Everything they say is like what you say. Lies. And scare tactics.

Completely baseless dire warnings of death and destruction.
Completely made up. All lies. No facts. Only scare tactics.

Did you notice that it says "for indoor use" on the OP's box?

[rbowman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:58:29 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote:

> I had tried heating that area with one of the kerosene heaters but it
> left a smell in the house. The heater worked well otherwise.

When I was a kid you could always tell who was heating with kerosene. I
don't mind the smell but it's distinctive. Coal stoves had a similar odor.

[rbowman]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 02:24:08 +0800, Patrick wrote:

> Does the Big Buddy stink that burned propane stink?
> Or does the catalyst remove that burned propane stink too?

Not that I have noticed but that may be me. My kitchen stove also uses
propane. A couple of times the pilot light has blown out and I can smell
the raw gas but not when it's operational.

[rbowman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 10:04:21 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman wrote:

> I can't answer your question. Have you looked at heaters for
> recreational vehicles? Those might be enough for your climate.
> A 20 gallon or so propane tank sounds way too small to be useful.
> You'll spend a lot of money getting refills. Rumor has it gasoline
> in California ain't cheap. I definitely wouldn't want a propane
> tank inside no matter the size.

The common tank used for grills and so forth is 20 pounds, not 20 gallons.
I've used 100 pound tanks for stock heaters. The tanks weight about 70
pounds plus 80 pounds of propane when full. They weren't too bad to unload
from a pickup and get into place but i was a lot younger then.

[rbowman]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 02:49:13 +0800, Patrick wrote:

> I think a problem with that adapter hose might be potential fitting
> leaks.
> But we can assume a leak will stink as long as the room is being
> attended.

Run some soapy water over all the connections. I make up a little in a
spray bottle for convenience.

[rbowman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:26:07 -0400, Patrick wrote:

> What can you do with an already filled brand new 20-gallon propane tank?
> It has to be hydro tested every 12 years according to Wilson at U-Haul.

See it to a neighbor with a gas grill or patio heater. It's good to have a
spare when the fire goes out and the steak is half raw.

[Ed P]

https://www.bankrate.com/insurance/homeowners-insurance/does-homeowners-insurance-cover-space-heaters/

Homeowners insurance typically covers damage to and caused by space
heaters, but claims will likely be denied if the space heater is the
primary heating source.
Home insurance rates may be affected by the type of heating equipment
used in a home.

When you file a claim, your homeowners insurance company will
investigate the circumstances that caused the fire. If your insurance
policy has exclusions or limitations involving primary and secondary
heating sources, any claim where the space heater is the primary heating
source could be denied.

[rbowman]

That's a awful sturdy looking corncrib.

https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photography-vintage-corn-crib-american-
west-image36922002

That's what I envisioned, slatted sides to let the corn dry.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 12 Oct 2023 18:45:35 -0400, Wolf Greenblatt

<wo...@greenblatt.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:06:08 -0400, hub...@ccanoemail.com wrote:
>> Be sure to advise your insurance company - if you plan to use
>> portable propane heaters in your home ..
>
>What's with the ridiculous fabrications of scare tactics?
>
>Do you work for "climate science" politicians?
>Everything they say is like what you say. Lies. And scare tactics.
>
>Completely baseless dire warnings of death and destruction.

How do you know they are baseless?

>Completely made up. All lies.

How do you know that?

[rbowman]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:27:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

> A friend of mine has one that he uses in his house. He's in a
> retirement community and his unit has electric heat. I would use one of
> those temporarily in some place with ventilation, like a house under
> construction while working inside, that kind of thing. But I wouldn't
> use one regularly for heating a home. I haven't been there when it's
> going to see if there is any odor. Also he has to get clear kerosene
> for it and it's about 20 miles to the nearest place for that.
> Apparently regular kerosene clogs up the wick somehow.

1-K is low sulfur. You can get into endless arguments over #1 diesel
versus kerosene. There aren't a lot of places left that punp 1-K.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/crown-1-k-fuel-grade-kerosene-5-
gal

5 gallons at Tractor Supply is $55 Kerosene is 139,000 BTU/gal and
propane is 91.330. I'll let someone else do the math.

[Bob F]

There you go again - putting the lie to another right winger's stupid
political idiocy.

[Bob F]

On 10/12/2023 8:42 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On 2023-10-12, trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 10:54:56 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> trader_4 <tra...@optonline.net> writes:
>>>> On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 12:47:51=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wr=
>>>> ote:
>>>> Odd that no one has commented on the fact that the libs want to
>>>> ban natural gas for cooking
>>> "libs" as a perjorative is counter-productive and juvenile.
>>
>> What's pejorative about it? It's just short for liberals. Are you ashamed of what you are?

Like we should use Cons for conservatives. Sounds good.

[Clare Snyder]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:33:13 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:52:55 -0400, Ed P wrote:
>> Propane produces 91,452 Btu/gallon
>> 1 kW of electric makes about 3400 Btu.
>>
>> roughly 26.9 kW = 1 gallon of propane.
>>
>> Or. $6.50 of electric to make the $4 propane.
>
>Thanks for that starter information where what I did was use your numbers
>to check myself, and then I ran the numbers as shown below, which concluded
>that they both cost almost exactly the same per hour - but the propane
>heater puts out more heat per hour.
>
>The rest of what I wrote below is how I came to that conclusion where I
>accept ahead of time that I could have made a math error (which is why I
>tried to check my numbers against your numbers as a double check).
>
>Since propane comes in 1-pound & 20-pound sizes, I'll do that math.
>And since the electric heater is 750 Watt and 1500 Watt, I'll use that.
>Likewise, the propane heater is 4000BTU and 9000BTU so I'll use that.
>Lastly I pay about $4/gallon for propane & $0.25/kWH so I'll use that.
>
>And a 20-pound propane tank (19.74 pounds, actually) is about 4.7 gallons
>of propane (where I received 4.4 gallons today but an exchange is usually
>only filled to about 3.5 gallons). Since 1 gallon of propane is ~4.11 lb at
>77 degrees F, then a 1 pound propane canister is just under 32 ounces, or a
>quart (although I'll be loose with the sig figs).
>
>One gallon of propane is 91,452 BTU so a one-pound canister is 0.243309
>times that which is 22,251 BTU. A 20-pound tank filled with 4.4 gallons of
>propane would be 402,389 BTU (I'm cutting and pasting so don't worry about
>sig figs for now).
>
>1 watt = 3.412141633 BTU/hour from your numbers (thanks!)
>
>So that 1-pound propane canister containing 22,251 BTU is ~6.5 kWh.
>The 20-pound propane tank of 402,389 BTU is ~118 kWh.
>
>At $0.25 per kWh, the 1-pound cylinder is ~$1.63 worth of electricity.
>The 20-pound propane tank is ~$29.50 worth of PG&E electricity.
>
>My 20-pound tank cost about $20 to fill today, so that's about a dollar per
>pound of propane (using easy numbers).
>
>The ads for the propane heater show how long it runs on a tank.
>
><https://www.lowes.com/pd/Mr-Heater-9000-BTU-Portable-Radiant-Propane-Heater/3353726>
> "2.4 hour run time on high and 5.4 hour on low with 1 lb cylinder"
>
>Now comes the problem of how long it takes to heat a room, given one heater
>is 750W/1500W and the other heater is 4000BTU/9000BTU.
>
>Back to the conversion factor of 1 watt = 3.412141633 BTU/hour...
>750 Watts is 2,559 BTU/hour; 1500 Watts is 5,118 BTU/hour.
>4000 BTU is 1,172 Watts; 9000 BTU is 2,638 Watts.
>
>Comparing wattage, they're kind of similar in heat output, with the propane
>heater being about 1-1/2 times hotter on low & 1-3/4 times hotter on high
>which doesn't seem all that much of a difference but clearly the propane
>heater is "hotter" per hour than the electric.
>
>Using the runtime figures of 2.4 hours on high per pound, that's about 0.42
>pounds of propane per hour. For runtimes of 5.4 hours on low, that's 0.18
>pounds per hour.
>
>Since the 20-pound tank cost about $20 to fill today, that's a dollar a
>pound, which means it would cost $0.42/hour on high and about $0.18/hour to
>run the propane heater on low.
>
>Meanwhile, the electric heater at 25 cents per kWh is about $0.38 per hour
>on high and about $0.19/hour on low.
>
>Hmmmm... assuming no boo boos, they're almost exactly the same price per
>hour (although the propane heater outputs from about 1-1/2 more heat per
>hour to about 1-3/4 more heat per hour).
>
>Interesting conclusion... if it's correct.
>
>Both cost about the same per hour but the propane puts out a bit more heat.


Forget figuring out how much it costs to run per hour. ALL you need to
know is the cost per BTU or cost per "therm" or per "watt equivalent"
The cost per hnour comes out in the wash because one runs less than
the other for the same heat output (The same temperature rise)

[Clare Snyder]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:43:26 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 23:54:37 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> Is this guy talking about heating a room with an unvented propane
>>> heater? Sounds crazy to me.
>>>
>>> Or is he talking about a space heater compared to heating the whole
>>> house with the propane furnace?
>>>
>>
>> Good point, I'm not sure. I'd not be worried about a couple of hours of
>> temporary heat but certainly don't want one in a sealed room, especially
>> if I'm going to sleep.
>
>Good question.
>
>I don't know the terminology of a "space heater" as that's the same thing
>(to me) as heating a room - and whether or not it's vented is an issue but
>every room is vented by the very nature of rooms with open doors and
>heating systems that are vented and fireplaces that are chocked open, etc.
>
>However, if you look at the photos, there's absolutely no doubt the heater
>is *intended* to be used indoors. It says so right on the box. Everywhere.
>
>Look at the photo and let me know if this is a "space heater" or a "room
>heater" because I do not know the difference.
> https://i.postimg.cc/gjJybGM7/heater01.jpg
>
>Does that look like a "space heater" or a "room heater" to you?
> https://i.postimg.cc/VvVqY2pk/heater02.jpg
The problem with unvented propane heaters is for roughly every liter
of propane burned you get 1 liter of WATER VAPOUR in the room. In a
drafty well ventilated (read that as DRY) house it's not a big problem
but in a well sealed house/room it can get pretty swampy after a
while.

Electric (or vented propane) do not have this problem

[Clare Snyder]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:01:17 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 00:47:43 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> Both cost about the same per hour but the propane puts out a bit more heat.
>>

>> Don't get hung up on the cost per hour. If one has to run for two hours
>> at $1 per hour it is cheaper than a heater that runs one hour at $3 per
>> hour. Btu is what matters. How long does it make to make say, 30,000
>> Btu and what is the cost of it.
>
>OK. That seems simple enough. Are you intimating that it takes about 30,000
>BTU to heat up a typical room?
>
>I have to admit that I was starting to get hung up on all the conversions!
>That's why I had asked for a simple equation from the start of this quest.

>
>750 Watts is 2,559 BTU/hour; 1500 Watts is 5,118 BTU/hour.
>4000 BTU is 1,172 Watts; 9000 BTU is 2,638 Watts.
>

>To get 30,000 BTU per "heating session" is the following I think.
>
>Propane Heater: high = 3.33 hours, low = 7.5 hours
>Electric Heater: high = 5.86 hours, low = 11.7 hours
>
>The propane is about 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 faster to get to 30,000 BTU.
>
>(If I did the math right.)
You don't need the fancy math. All you need is the COST PER BTU. All
the rest "comes out in the wash"

[Clare Snyder]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:58:29 -0400, Ralph Mowery

<rmow...@charter.net> wrote:

>In article <koqir3...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
>says...
>>
>> It will keep about 240 sq ft that is not very well insulated to 65 - 70
>> degrees with a outside temperature of 32. The high/low is the problem.
>> There are two catalytic panels, one of which is used for low, both for
>> high. When it gets too warm, throttling it down to low is necessary. Then
>> the area starts to cool. Basically you become the thermostat with a lot of
>> hysteresis.
>>
>>
>
>That system seems like what I installed in my house that had natural
>gas. There was a natural gas furnace for thr house. At one end was a
>single carport that was enclosed, no heat or AC except what would com in
>by the open door to the house.
>
>I intalled a ventless heater that had 3 panels and you manually selected
>the amount of heat by using one, two, or 3 panels.

>
>I had tried heating that area with one of the kerosene heaters but it
>left a smell in the house. The heater worked well otherwise.
>

The problem is the cost of Kerosene -------------Uo here it's about
$16.50 Canadian a gallon at retail. Lamp oil is $15 a LITER!!!
South of the border in the USA it's $10 US per gallon - about the
same at today's exchange rate.

[Clare Snyder]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 18:45:35 -0400, Wolf Greenblatt
<wo...@greenblatt.net> wrote:

Having worked at an insurance agency for 17 years the question IS on
your insurance application and no, insurance companies are NOT in the
risk-taking business.

[Clare Snyder]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 19:51:33 -0400, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:

It's for indoor use in your ice fishing shack or hunting shack - not
your house

[Wolf Greenblatt]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:20:03 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

>>Did you notice that it says "for indoor use" on the OP's box?
> Having worked at an insurance agency for 17 years the question IS on
> your insurance application and no, insurance companies are NOT in the
> risk-taking business.

The problem with these baseless lies is not whether or not I should be
scared to death but the person who is telling me I should be scared to
death is making up these baseless lies because THEY are scared to death.

It happens all the time with home repairs.

Someone asks a question how to fix a roof and these people who foment these
scare tactics scream at them to never touch a shingle. It's too dangerous.

They ask on this group how to snake the drains and these same people who
spread these scare myths tell you how dangerous it is to snake the pipes.

They ask how to dig up an irrigation pipe and these same fear mongers
scream at them how dangerous it is if they broke open a gas pipe.

What are they on a home repair group for anyway?
To tell everyone that it's too dangerous to do their own home repair?

They're the ones who should "hire a professional" because they're the ones
too scared to do anything. The rest of us can do our own home repair.

We're not scared to death to go outside and pee on the lawn without
worrying that the insurance company will negate the insurance as a result.

[Wolf Greenblatt]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:21:47 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

>>>Did you notice that it says "for indoor use" on the OP's box?
> It's for indoor use in your ice fishing shack or hunting shack - not
> your house

You haven't been on the thread so you probably don't know they discussed
the catalysts are being used and that the devices are safe for indoor use.

Do you know anything about catalytic converters?
Do you think cats are safe?

Or are they going to set your grass on fire like they said years ago?

[Dean Hoffman]

Clare spun wrenches for a living. In other words, he was/is a mechanic.

[Patrick]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:50:56 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>But now that I know the propane costs less per BTU but less than twice as
>>less, I may return the propane heater to Costco. I'm stuck with the tank.
>>
>>What can you do with an already filled brand new 20-gallon propane tank?
>
> 20 gallon? or 20 pound? A 20# tank holds about 4.6 gallons of propane.
>
> Buy a propane grill and cook outside. Year round in the bay area.

My mistake. 20 pounds nominal. 5 gallons nominal. 40 pounds nominal filled.

Given it costs two or three times more and there are always fire and gas
dangers, I'm probably going to return the propane heater, unopened, and
keep the electric heater but I don't need either of them yet so I was
thinking of testing them out first when it gets cold.

I don't think I can return the 20 pound propane tank once I filled it (I
wouldn't accept it if I was Costco) so I'm stuck with the propane tank.

I could get a gas grill but I also do copper repairs once in a while so
that's why I have my blue 1 pound propane tank but it's not refillable.

You can refill them but they're not designed to be refilled. Only the Flame
King brand sells refillable tanks it seems. They make them better quality.

A gas bbq might be nice since I use my wood fired pizza oven to cook meats.
It can get a gas contraption I think but I just use the wood pan for fuel.

[Patrick]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:07:21 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
> You don't need the fancy math. All you need is the COST PER BTU. All
> the rest "comes out in the wash"

Thanks for advising that the cost per BTU is the important metric.
Nothing is given in costs per BTU though. So math is still needed.

I don't know how to calculate cost per BTU but using Ed's numbers, 1 watt
is 3.412141633 BTU/hour with my electricity bill averaging about $0.25/kWh.

A kilowatt hour must be 3,412.141633 BTU/hour so that is $0.25 for it.
Does that make the price per BTU about 7.327e-5 (cut and pasted from my
Windows calculator which hurts my brain to think in "e-5" numbers).

From my buddy who says it takes an hour to heat a room, and from our
calculations that took about 10,000 BTU expended on average, then maybe I
can get rid of the "e-5" calculating the cost per 10,000 BTU instead.

I don't know how to run those numbers so I think math is still needed.
Do you know how to calculate the cost per BTU for propane & electricity?

[Patrick]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 19:05:06 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman wrote:
>> Or are they going to set your grass on fire like they said years ago?
>
> Clare spun wrenches for a living. In other words, he was/is a mechanic.

Oh. Good. He'd know all about them then. Maybe he can help us figure out if
these propane heaters are using a catalytic converter like others said.

[Bob F]

It would probably take you 20 seconds to find a calculator for that online.

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 23:25:06 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Not that I have noticed but that may be me. My kitchen stove also uses
> propane. A couple of times the pilot light has blown out and I can smell
> the raw gas but not when it's operational.

That begs the question: was your big mouth EVER not operational? LOL

--
Yet more of the abnormal senile gossiping by the resident senile gossip:
"I never understood how they made a living but the space where the local
party store was is now up for lease. It probably was more than helium. I
often walk over the the adjacent market to get something for dinner and
people stuffing balloons in their cars was a common sight. No more. I've
no idea if there is another store in town."
MID: <kafs2nF...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 23:21:31 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> When I was a kid you could always tell who was heating with kerosene.

Haven't you noticed yet, you ALWAYS can tell everyone anything, bigmouth.
LOL

--
Self-admiring gossip lowbrowwoman about his own, incredibly interesting
personality, again:
"Trout is one fish I don't care for. I know it is hair-splitting along the
species line but Coho salmon tastes like trout to me and I don't like it
wither. I do like Atlantic salmon wrapped in parchment with a little dill
and baked."
MID: <knpffn...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 23:46:27 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> That's a awful sturdy looking corncrib.
>
> https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photography-vintage-corn-crib-american-
> west-image36922002
>
> That's what I envisioned, slatted sides to let the corn dry.

For once I trust that you know what you are talking about, hayseed! LOL

--
And yet another idiotic "cool" line, this time about the UK, from the
resident bigmouthed all-American superhero:
"You could dump the entire 93,628 square miles in eastern Montana and only
the prairie dogs would notice."
MID: <ka2vrl...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 23:56:31 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> 1-K is low sulfur. You can get into endless arguments over #1 diesel
> versus kerosene. There aren't a lot of places left that punp 1-K.
>
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/crown-1-k-fuel-grade-kerosene-5-
> gal
>
> 5 gallons at Tractor Supply is $55 Kerosene is 139,000 BTU/gal and
> propane is 91.330. I'll let someone else do the math.

Sure, YOU will do the talking! LOL

--
Self-admiring senile blabbermouth lowbrowwoman about himself, again:
"For $40 a pound I want something off an Angus and dry aged. My standards
were set in the '50s. Where I grew up everybody ate fish on Friday
including the Prods with restaurants having Friday specials. It wasn't
expensive for recognizable species. Pollock was considered trash fish and
stuff like swai was unheard of."
MID: <knpf45...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 12 Oct 2023 23:34:57 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the Endlessly Driveling Senile
Gossip



> The common tank used for grills and so forth is 20 pounds, not 20 gallons.
> I've used 100 pound tanks for stock heaters. The tanks weight about 70
> pounds plus 80 pounds of propane when full. They weren't too bad to unload
> from a pickup and get into place but i was a lot younger then.

Were you weren't one of the strong silent type when you were young, were
you, senile chatterbox? LOL

--
More of the resident bigmouth's usual idiotic babble and gossip:
I'm not saying my father and uncle wouldn't have drank Genesee beer
without Miss Genny but it certainly didn't hurt. Stanton's was the
hometown brewery but it closed in '50. There was a Schaefer brewery in
Albany but their product was considered a step up from cat piss.

My preference was Rheingold on tap"

MID: <k9mnmm...@mid.individual.net>

[hub...@ccanoemail.com]

Yup ... 30 second google search :

https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

John T.

[Scott Lurndal]

That's exactly what we had in the first half of the 20th century.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, October 12, 2023 at 5:26:14 PM UTC-4, Patrick wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:29:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:
> >> I think a problem with that adapter hose might be potential fitting leaks.
> >> But we can assume a leak will stink as long as the room is being attended.
> >
> > Another factor in favor of electric, no tank refilling. Having to haul that tank
> > around to get it refilled will become a pain, IMO.
> The issue isn't hauling the tank around to get it refilled since the tank
> only weighs 20 pounds empty. The refilling process is a five minute wait.
> And the price of four dollars per gallon seems reasonable to me (is it?).
>
> But having a forty pound (full) tank attached to the heater by a six foot
> hose is a bit of an issue if you move the heater around from room to room.
>
> The room I want to head has a fireplace in the middle so that's where
> I'd put it. There isn't any electricity outlets on that central stack.

>
> But now that I know the propane costs less per BTU but less than twice as
> less, I may return the propane heater to Costco. I'm stuck with the tank.
>
> What can you do with an already filled brand new 20-gallon propane tank?

Put it on Craigslist and/or Facebook Marketplace

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:57:40 -0400, Wolf Greenblatt

<wo...@greenblatt.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:21:47 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>>>>Did you notice that it says "for indoor use" on the OP's box?
>> It's for indoor use in your ice fishing shack or hunting shack - not
>> your house
>
>You haven't been on the thread so you probably don't know they discussed
>the catalysts are being used and that the devices are safe for indoor use.
>
>Do you know anything about catalytic converters?

Do YOU know anything about catalytic converters? You seem to think they
are 100% effective and they're not.

And your question was artful, that is, phrased as a question so it can't
be a direct lie, but implying these heaters use catalytic converters.
How do you know the device in question has one? Isn't that something
they would brag about on the box if they did? Yes, it is, so they don't
have one. They use platinum, palladium and rhodium as the catalysts in
cars, 3 of the most expensive metals. With a 30,000 car, their cost is
a tiny percentage (and it's the law anyhow) but with a $90 heater, I
think it would raise the price by a substantial %.

"They have a low oxygen sensor that will shut them off automatically."
So what sort of sensor is it, how does it work and how often does it
fail? Does it get overdosed with age and fail?

>Do you think cats are safe?

Irrelevant here, but no. The purpose of the cats was to make the air as
a whole cleaner, but not to make exhaust gas so clean you can breathe it
safely. People still kill themselves with auto exhaust gas, don't they?
Even though their car has a cat.
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/1998/168/2/impact-catalytic-converters-motor-vehicle-exhaust-gas-suicides
From a 1998 Australian artice, using data up to 1995: ". Between 1976
and 1991 exhaust gas suicides increased at a faster rate than motor
vehicle registrations..... Motor vehicle exhaust gas suicides have
steadily increased as a percentage of total suicides since at least 1970
(7% in 1970, 13% in 1980 and 22% in 1995)."

Do YOU think cats are safe?

>Or are they going to set your grass on fire like they said years ago?

Artfully phrased. Instead of denying a fact, you asked about it. They
said it because it is true. Not short grass that doesn't come close to
the cat, probably not fresh plump green grass, but yes, they do. In
fact we even had a young woman post here to AHR to whom this had
happened, and iirc to make it worse, it was her father's car.

How come you don't know that, and how come you didn't answer my post
where I asked how you know the warnings are baseless and how you know
the warnings are lies? Because you don't have any good answers to
those questions, right?

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 13 Oct 2023 10:23:52 +0800, Patrick

Not "others", just one, and he didn't say it. He *asked* if someone
knew anything about catalytic converters, but he didn't say these had
one. Did he just forget to include a statement that they do, or was
that intentional artfulness? If he just forgot, he should be more
careful in the future because it reminds one of a very common technique
of liars, to ask, in order to put ideas, including false ideas, in
people's heads. It's somewhat similar to "many people are saying", when
in fact no one is saying it except the liar who is talking and maybe his
paid and unpaid stooges.

And they don't. Read my other post from today.

Other than maybe the size, I think this is what you've been talkilng
about:
https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heater-F232000-Indoor-Safe-Portable/dp/B002G51BZU/ref=sr_1_2
The advantage of Amazon is they give more information in their listings
than other online (or in person) vendors. Other store have had 20+
years to imitate Amazon and they don't, and then some people, (the same
vendors, I don't know) complain about Amazon.)

Anyhow, in this case it says " Portable propane heater designed for
emergency heat, tents, campers, job sites, porches, decks, garages,
tailgates, barns, sheds, ice fishing, hunting blinds, and more" They
probably get ths text from the manufacturer, and clearly they are not
willing to say you can use it indoors. If when your widow sues them,
her lawyer argues that "more" included your bedroom, they will say, "No
it didn't".


https://www.reddit.com/r/OffGrid/comments/zs57jt/mr_buddy_heater_safe_indoors/
is interesting: " Even if you aren't burning enough propane for carbon
monoxide to be an issue, I find that burning any propane indoors for a
period of time tends to make the air "different" and it just isn't the
same as when using fuel-burning, heat-exchanged gas fixtures (i.e.
fireplaces, furnaces, etc.)
....
If you must run one of those things indoors to get ANY heat in the
frigid cold, then open the window a crack at one end of the home, and
another at the other end so fresh oxygen gets supplied through a small
draft blowing through the windows."

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:55:20 -0400, Wolf Greenblatt

<wo...@greenblatt.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:20:03 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>>>Did you notice that it says "for indoor use" on the OP's box?
>> Having worked at an insurance agency for 17 years the question IS on
>> your insurance application and no, insurance companies are NOT in the
>> risk-taking business.
>
>The problem with these baseless lies is not whether or not I should be
>scared to death but the person who is telling me I should be scared to
>death is making up these baseless lies because THEY are scared to death.

The problem with your posts is not so much that you don't know what
you're talking about but that you say things you don't know are true or
not but say them affirmatively which such assurance, while calling
people liars who are most likely honest, but you refuse to say how you
know whether they are right or not.

>
>It happens all the time with home repairs.

Your style is very rare here.

Salesmen often have moderately good ideas that they claim are the best
methods, but even they don't label those with other methods to be liars.

>Someone asks a question how to fix a roof and these people who foment
these
>scare tactics scream at them to never touch a shingle. It's too dangerous.

I've never seen anyone say it's too dangerous to fix a roof, either here
or in the print or electronic media. People fix roofs every day. With
100 million homes and roofs that last say 30 years, that would be 3
million roof repair a year in the USA alone. 12,000 a day. Where are
the people saying it's too dangerous?

>They ask on this group how to snake the drains and these same people who
>spread these scare myths tell you how dangerous it is to snake the pipes.

Again no one has ever said that here. I've been reading this group
every day for 25 or 30 years and no one has ever said that.

>They ask how to dig up an irrigation pipe and these same fear mongers
>scream at them how dangerous it is if they broke open a gas pipe.

That does happen. Don't you understand how that can happen and how even
if it doesn't cause an explosion it still means they have to pay for an
emergency crew to come and fix it. In Maryland you should call Miss
Utility before you dig. Every state has a phone number. When I called,
they came out the next day.

(I've met Miss Utility. She was very pretty, as nice as Miss
Turnstiles.
https://www.neh.gov/humanities/2015/januaryfebruary/feature/the-original-miss-turnstiles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Subways#In_popular_culture )

>What are they on a home repair group for anyway?
>To tell everyone that it's too dangerous to do their own home repair?

Find a post in the last month, in the last year, where someone said
that.

>They're the ones who should "hire a professional" because they're the ones
>too scared to do anything. The rest of us can do our own home repair.

I know I can. I don't know about you, jumping to the false conclusion
that a heater has a cat, that it's safe indoors, even when the vendor
doesn't say it.

>We're not scared to death to go outside and pee on the lawn without
>worrying that the insurance company will negate the insurance as a result.

I've avoided being personal but I'll go this far. You are positioning
yourself as a wacko.

[Bob F]

These heaters are catalytic heaters, not converters.

And they do use up oxygen.

https://colemancollectorsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5317

[Scott Lurndal]

micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> writes:
>In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 12 Oct 2023 21:57:40 -0400, Wolf Greenblatt
><wo...@greenblatt.net> wrote:
ed and that the devices are safe for indoor use.
>>
>>Do you know anything about catalytic converters?
>
>Do YOU know anything about catalytic converters? You seem to think they
>are 100% effective and they're not.
>
>And your question was artful, that is, phrased as a question so it can't
>be a direct lie, but implying these heaters use catalytic converters.

Indeed. One must always be careful of first-time posters - it's quite
likely they're just another nym-shift by one of the group trolls.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 13 Oct 2023 08:44:52 -0700, Bob F

FWIW, this was a thread from 10 months ago and the original question was
about a Mr Buddy Heater, the 9000 BTU one. The answer below is sort of
a general one.

>>" Even if you aren't burning enough propane for carbon
>> monoxide to be an issue, I find that burning any propane indoors for a
>> period of time tends to make the air "different" and it just isn't the
>> same as when using fuel-burning, heat-exchanged gas fixtures (i.e.
>> fireplaces, furnaces, etc.)
>> ....
>> If you must run one of those things indoors to get ANY heat in the
>> frigid cold, then open the window a crack at one end of the home, and
>> another at the other end so fresh oxygen gets supplied through a small
>> draft blowing through the windows."
>
>These heaters are catalytic heaters, not converters.

By "these" you're not referring to the Buddy heaters, are you? Maybe to
the ones that Wolf seems to have in mind?

>
>And they do use up oxygen.
>
>https://colemancollectorsforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5317

WRT the Coleman 515, someone said " Original instructions said to leave
two windows or two flaps for a cross breeze to ventilate. A few people
died, a few lawsuits later and poof - no more CF catalytics. "

Other people seem to make them but not the portable type, like the Buddy
is. https://catcousa.com/what-are-catalytic-heaters/

Nowhere in the Buddy are the letters "cataly" found.

[rbowman]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:23:20 -0400, micky wrote:

> WRT the Coleman 515, someone said " Original instructions said to leave
> two windows or two flaps for a cross breeze to ventilate. A few people
> died, a few lawsuits later and poof - no more CF catalytics. "

I have a 515 although I haven't used it in years. It ran on Coleman fuel /
white gas and wasn't very efficient. The fuel didn't seem to wick up into
the dome shaped pad very well.

[Clare Snyder]

I HAVE been on the thread - just not contributing. Yes, I KNOW it
said "for indoor use" - and I know ot was a catalytic heater - and I
know catalytic heaters when running properly produce VERY LITTLE CO -
but I would still not use one in a well sealed structure particularly
without a CO detector.


I HAVE experiende with Catalytic convertors - and fire.
Long time mechanic

If a converter gets "flooded - ie - run too rich it WILL overheat - to
the point it will glow WHITE HOT - and if the heat sheild is missing -
and possibly even if it is not - it WILL burn grass. Not only burn
grass but blister asphault.

My experience was a 1981 Corolla with a sticky throttle that was shut
down and deiselled. It took less than 20 seconds to melt the carpet
and ignite it, which then burned the seat and console. Quick
application of a water hose salvaged the car. The converter was
totally blue after it cooled down and the strata inside was totally
melted. Also a nice shiny spot on the paved driveway where the "tar"
bubbled.

Also not far fromhere a couple years ago - July 2018 -34 cars were
destroyed due to a missing heat sheild on a parked car --

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/34-cars-burned-up-in-niagara-on-the-lake-grass-fire-1.4005136

Doesn't just happen in Canada either -
https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/how-a-cars-catalytic-converter-can-spark-a-massive-fire/509-dbf4ca3b-3be7-45d5-925a-32bf2f3585b7

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 10:06:59 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

I run my BernzoMatic Turbo torch off the 20 lb tank with a coleman
hose.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 10:23:52 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

They are not using a "catalytic converter" they are using a
"catalytic burner" At the root, the chemistry and physics are similar
- but totally different application

[Patrick]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 09:23:10 -0400, hub...@ccanoemail.com wrote:
>>> I don't know how to run those numbers so I think math is still needed.
>>> Do you know how to calculate the cost per BTU for propane & electricity?
>>
>>It would probably take you 20 seconds to find a calculator for that online.
>
> Yup ... 30 second google search :
>
> https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

Thanks for that spreadsheet comparison with the efficiency defaults.
https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

While I was trying to do the math myself, my main response to Clare would
have been nobody can derive the answer without math, where Clare didn't
know that or she would have provided the answer instead of saying that math
isn't ever worth doing so we should always guess at the answer instead.

Ed was working on the math - which helped me a lot as I didn't know how to
proceed at first. It should be obvious if I could figure out the math
myself, I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place of folks.

But Clare telling me no math is ever needed is clearly not at all helpful.

Without resorting to guessing, the calculator hubops provided gave me the
following values where the missing information was that default efficiency.

Propane Gallon $3.95
At 91,333 BTU/gallon & 85% efficiency cost $5,088.04 Per 100 Million BTU

Electric (Resistance) kiloWatt-hour (kWh) $0.25
At 3,412 BTU/kWh & 100% efficiency cost $7,327.08 Per 100 Million BTU

Similar to what I had calculated before, my cost for propane heat is about
69% of that of electric and electric is 144% the cost compared to propane.

Previously I had calculated electric to be 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 that of the
propane (which depended on the heat settings of low or high).

The good news is my calculations and the chart matches, even as I didn't
include the 85% efficiency of propane (which I didn't know about).

Would you agree with the 85% efficiency for propane & 100% for electricity?

[Patrick]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:10:26 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
> I run my BernzoMatic Turbo torch off the 20 lb tank with a coleman
> hose.

Thanks Clare as that's actually a good idea since I don't run the torch all
that often, running it off the 20-pound tank means I can avoid refilling
the 1-pound tank.

Looking for that Coleman hose on the net, the first search result seems
like it would be good to burn snow and ice off of the back steps up north
https://www.amazon.com/SCHTUMPA-Starting-Electric-Ergonomic-Anti-slip/dp/B09F2TK6SC/

I have this kind of old-style all-brass burner torch 1-pound connection.
https://www.amazon.com/Flame-King-YSNAX1-003-Propane-Welding/dp/B08LXVBSKP/

I had a lot of trouble with the search terms to find that adaptor.

Is this what will work to convert the one pound to a 20 pound connection?
https://www.amazon.com/Disposable-Throwaway-Cylinder-Converter-Universal/dp/B00KYDJ694/

I couldn't find a hose. Only that one brass adaptor so far.

[Patrick]

On 12 Oct 2023 23:40:20 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>> What can you do with an already filled brand new 20-gallon propane tank?

>> It has to be hydro tested every 12 years according to Wilson at U-Haul.
>
> See it to a neighbor with a gas grill or patio heater. It's good to have a
> spare when the fire goes out and the steak is half raw.

Thanks for that suggestion that someone else can always use a second tank.

I looked up if propane goes bad like gasoline does & found out it doesn't.
The only thing that ages is the tank has to be inspected every 12 years.
For that, it can be traded in for a "newer" tank with a newer date on it.

I like Clare's idea of finding a 6-foot hose to connect the brass torch
that normally fits onto the top of a 1-pound propane canister to the
20-pound tank as I use the brass torch for things like whipping rope ends.

My torch looks like this (but it's older so it's all brass - no plastic).
https://www.brandnew.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/PropaneTorch-JumboFlame.jpg

This may be the hose needed to mate that Bernzomatic torch to 20-pounders
https://tarcotoolsusa.info/propane-torch-with-2-nozzles/

Or maybe this Flame King hose - I don't know how to tell what it fits onto.
https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/ed4e2ec5-40f5-4701-bf10-167fc1398f64/svn/flame-king-torches-tanks-ysnax1-092-64_1000.jpg

[Patrick]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:12:51 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
>>Oh. Good. He'd know all about them then. Maybe he can help us figure out if
>>these propane heaters are using a catalytic converter like others said.
> They are not using a "catalytic converter" they are using a
> "catalytic burner" At the root, the chemistry and physics are similar
> - but totally different application

The box says it can be used indoors, but there's nothing specific about how
but my current plan is to put it in the fireplace.

I used to burn wood in that fireplace (it's piped for propane but only to
start the logs burning) so I can't imagine burning wood causes any more
carbon monoxide (or uses up any more oxygen) than the propane burner does.

Does it?

[Patrick]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 11:00:48 -0400, micky wrote:
>>You haven't been on the thread so you probably don't know they discussed
>>the catalysts are being used and that the devices are safe for indoor use.
>>
>>Do you know anything about catalytic converters?
>
> Do YOU know anything about catalytic converters? You seem to think they
> are 100% effective and they're not.

The bedroom I'm planning on heating has a fireplace in the middle on a wall
separating two open rooms in that there is only one door to the house (and
one door to the outside). All the rooms are open except the bathroom &
closet.

There is an opening on both sides of that fireplace & of course a chimney.

Are you saying that the propane burner is more dangerous than the fire is?
How can that be?

Billions of people have fireplaces in their homes.
How is this propane heater any different?

[Patrick]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:08:59 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
> I HAVE been on the thread - just not contributing. Yes, I KNOW it
> said "for indoor use" - and I know ot was a catalytic heater - and I
> know catalytic heaters when running properly produce VERY LITTLE CO -
> but I would still not use one in a well sealed structure particularly
> without a CO detector.

It's good you have experience that I don't have on such things.

The bedroom I'm planning on heating has a pretty large fireplace in the

middle on a wall separating two open rooms in that there is only one door
to the house (and one door to the outside). All the rooms are open except

the bathroom & closet. The flue is 1/2 chocked open by California law.

The fireplace has a steel pipe with holes in it used to start the wood
using propane piped from a large tank outside the house.

There is an opening on both sides of that fireplace & of course a chimney.

What I don't like about the fireplace is the carpet gets soiled. They
shouldn't have carpeted the whole bedroom - but they did and that's that.

However, billions of people have fireplaces in their homes, don't they?
Maybe many millions of those people have them in their bedrooms, right?

How is this propane heater there any different than the open fireplace is?

[Patrick]

> Propane Gallon $3.95
> At 91,333 BTU/gallon & 85% efficiency cost $5,088.04 Per 100 Million BTU
>
> Electric (Resistance) kiloWatt-hour (kWh) $0.25
> At 3,412 BTU/kWh & 100% efficiency cost $7,327.08 Per 100 Million BTU

Thanks to your advice and that of Clare and others, I think I should
calculate the cost for 10,000 BTU which is about an hour of room heating.

If I did the math right (by moving the decimal point), heating a room costs

Propane Gallon $3.95
At 91,333 BTU/gallon & 85% efficiency cost $0.51 Per 10K BTU

Electric (Resistance) kiloWatt-hour (kWh) $0.25

At 3,412 BTU/kWh & 100% efficiency cost $0.73 Per 10K BTU

Using rough numbers, it will cost me about fifty cents to initially heat a
room with propane, and about seventy-five cents to heat it with electric.

I didn't even *think* about the carbon monoxide issue until people brought
it up, but wouldn't putting the thing in the fireplace solve that issue?

[Ed P]

When you burn wood in the fireplace, the damper is open. Are you going
to have it open with the propane heater?

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 05:15:53 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 09:23:10 -0400, hub...@ccanoemail.com wrote:
>>>> I don't know how to run those numbers so I think math is still needed.
>>>> Do you know how to calculate the cost per BTU for propane & electricity?
>>>
>>>It would probably take you 20 seconds to find a calculator for that online.
>>
>> Yup ... 30 second google search :
>>
>> https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating
>
>Thanks for that spreadsheet comparison with the efficiency defaults.
>https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating
>
>While I was trying to do the math myself, my main response to Clare would
>have been nobody can derive the answer without math, where Clare didn't
>know that or she would have provided the answer instead of saying that math
>isn't ever worth doing so we should always guess at the answer instead.
>

I didn't say you didn't need math - I said you didn't need
complicated math - and I'm not a "she" - I'm an "old dude"

>Ed was working on the math - which helped me a lot as I didn't know how to
>proceed at first. It should be obvious if I could figure out the math
>myself, I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place of folks.
>
>But Clare telling me no math is ever needed is clearly not at all helpful.

I didn't say no math and I provided the required math

>
>Without resorting to guessing, the calculator hubops provided gave me the
>following values where the missing information was that default efficiency.
>
>Propane Gallon $3.95
>At 91,333 BTU/gallon & 85% efficiency cost $5,088.04 Per 100 Million BTU
>
>Electric (Resistance) kiloWatt-hour (kWh) $0.25
>At 3,412 BTU/kWh & 100% efficiency cost $7,327.08 Per 100 Million BTU
>
>Similar to what I had calculated before, my cost for propane heat is about
>69% of that of electric and electric is 144% the cost compared to propane.
>
>Previously I had calculated electric to be 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 that of the
>propane (which depended on the heat settings of low or high).
>
>The good news is my calculations and the chart matches, even as I didn't
>include the 85% efficiency of propane (which I didn't know about).
>

When you burn propane it's virtually 100% efficient if it's not
vented. Every BTU is released as heat - INSIDE the room.

>Would you agree with the 85% efficiency for propane & 100% for electricity?

Electric heat is virtually 100% efficient too - but a small amount of
that heat is released in the wires from the power station to your
outlet. You only pay for what gets into the house so you are only
loosing the small amount of heat dissipaed in the in-house wiring. I
know - nit-picking but I figured you would be familiar with that
concept - - -

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 05:34:18 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

You didn't look very hard.
https://www.amazon.ca/Buddy-Propane-Hose-Assembly-Swivel/dp/B001CFWF5U/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=buddy+propane+hose&qid=1697251036&sr=8-5
This one ien't coleman but - - This one is - - -

https://www.amazon.ca/Coleman-5-Ft-High-Pressure-Propane-Adaptor/dp/B0009PUQAK

This is the TS4000 torch I use
https://www.amazon.ca/Bernzomatic-TS4000T-Trigger-Start-Torch-Head/dp/B00008ZA09/ref=asc_df_B00008ZA09?tag=bingshopdesk-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80127001873353&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726546379453&th=1

Once you've used one of them you'll NEVER go back to the old solid
brass "antique"

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 05:43:15 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

>On 12 Oct 2023 23:40:20 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>> What can you do with an already filled brand new 20-gallon propane tank?
>>> It has to be hydro tested every 12 years according to Wilson at U-Haul.
>>
>> See it to a neighbor with a gas grill or patio heater. It's good to have a
>> spare when the fire goes out and the steak is half raw.
>
>Thanks for that suggestion that someone else can always use a second tank.
>
>I looked up if propane goes bad like gasoline does & found out it doesn't.
>The only thing that ages is the tank has to be inspected every 12 years.
>For that, it can be traded in for a "newer" tank with a newer date on it.
>
>I like Clare's idea of finding a 6-foot hose to connect the brass torch
>that normally fits onto the top of a 1-pound propane canister to the
>20-pound tank as I use the brass torch for things like whipping rope ends.
>
>My torch looks like this (but it's older so it's all brass - no plastic).
>https://www.brandnew.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/PropaneTorch-JumboFlame.jpg
>
>This may be the hose needed to mate that Bernzomatic torch to 20-pounders
>https://tarcotoolsusa.info/propane-torch-with-2-nozzles/

Nope

>
>Or maybe this Flame King hose - I don't know how to tell what it fits onto.
>https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/ed4e2ec5-40f5-4701-bf10-167fc1398f64/svn/flame-king-torches-tanks-ysnax1-092-64_1000.jpg

Nope

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 05:49:43 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

Putting it in the fireplace will let most of the heat go up the
chimney and draw even more warm air out with it - fireplaces are
TERRIBLY inefficient. All you will get is a bit of radiant heat -
warming you but not the air.

Likely use less oxygen than the wood fire but also produce less heat

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 05:52:36 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

The fire is vented - and the draft produced by the heat going out
the chimey can be enough to slam doors and make windows whistle. Not
much CO danger. The propane burner -even if set in the fireplace -
will not produce as strong a draft (or any if the damper is closed)
With the damper open you will lose a LARGE percentage of the heat and
COULD get a "back-draft" of cold air if not enough heat goes out the
chimney to produce an adequate draft.

It's s LOT more complicated than you imagine.

A wood fire that is not banked down produces VERY little CO. Banked
down like in an airtight stove more CO is produced - but being
airtight it goes out the chimney. A well banked COAL fire in an "open"
parlour stove can kill you pretty quickly as it produces a LOT of CO
and it is free to exit the stove into the room - particularly
since"banking" the fire involves restricting the draft with the Damper

[Patrick]

Clare Snyder wrote on 13.10.2023

> When you burn propane it's virtually 100% efficient if it's not
> vented. Every BTU is released as heat - INSIDE the room.

Thanks for explaining that as the chart defaulted to 85% efficiency for
propane heating and 100% efficiency for resistive electric heating.

If I make the propane 100% efficient, it's output get even better.
https://coalpail.com/fuel-comparison-calculator-home-heating

Propane Gallon $3.95
At 91,333 BTU/gallon & 100% efficiency cost $0.43 Per 10K BTU

Electric (Resistance) kiloWatt-hour (kWh) $0.25

At 3,412 BTU/kWh & 100% efficiency cost $0.73 Per 10K BTU

Earlier, from Ed's and Bob's and Trader's and Hubops figures,
it was determined that 10,000 BTU seems like about how much energy
it takes to heat a typical bedroom once in typical conditions.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 05:56:49 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

I wouldn't sleep with the fireplace either - - - - what about a
proper propane firplace insert - since you have propane piped to the
fireplace????. They are insurance certified, safe, efficient, readilly
available - even in double sided format - but decidedly NOT cheap.

The fireplace is illegal and unsafe if it does not have a non-flamable
hearth around it extending a few feet out and to both sides of the
fireplace opening. Not an issue with a propane insert.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 06:04:27 +0800, Patrick <pat...@oleary.com>
wrote:

As I said in a previous post it COULD - but it wouls then reduce the
efficiency significantly - possibly as low is 15-25% unstead of 85%+

[Clare Snyder]

A sad comment on the state of American education (assoming Patrick is
American) - no math skills and no scientific knowlege at all. This is
all Grade 5 level knowlege for most of us born in the 50s and 60s - -
-

[Patrick]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 20:11:44 -0400, Ed P wrote:
>> How is this propane heater there any different than the open fireplace is?
>
> When you burn wood in the fireplace, the damper is open. Are you going
> to have it open with the propane heater?

I haven't thought about it that far as I didn't even think about the CO
when this conversation started - but it's not hard to open the damper.

Clare said most of the heat will go up the chimney though.

So maybe I'll put the heater somewhere else as the damper is chocked 1/4
open by California law anyway (it's a screw fitting that can be undone).

Since both heaters were bought at Costco, I can return one, but I'm still
working on figuring out which one to return - the propane or the electric.

The electric has more safety features (like automatic &/or timed shutoff).
The propane is 3/4 the expense and 1.5 times the heat (per hour).

Which of the two would you use in a rather open aired high ceiling bedroom
(that has a fan in the ceiling and a two-sided fireplace in the middle)?

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 14 Oct 2023 05:52:36 +0800, Patrick

<pat...@oleary.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 11:00:48 -0400, micky wrote:
>>>You haven't been on the thread so you probably don't know they discussed
>>>the catalysts are being used and that the devices are safe for indoor use.
>>>
>>>Do you know anything about catalytic converters?
>>
>> Do YOU know anything about catalytic converters? You seem to think they
>> are 100% effective and they're not.
>
>The bedroom I'm planning on heating has a fireplace in the middle on a wall
>separating two open rooms in that there is only one door to the house (and
>one door to the outside). All the rooms are open except the bathroom &
>closet.
>
>There is an opening on both sides of that fireplace & of course a chimney.
>
>Are you saying that the propane burner is more dangerous than the fire is?

In my post excepted above, I was arguing with Wolf who I thought
deserved rebuttal (each part for a different reason.) Some of those
rebuttals should be of interest to you, especially when I quote the
Amazon ad that lists places to use such a heater. And the one that asks
what a low oxygens sensor is, how it works, does it fail, does it fail
because of age? I have no idea how a low oxygen sensor works.

But all in all, I don't know the answer to your question. I mostly
know when someone says something doesn't make sense, and you havent'
said silly things. Plus anyone who's taken a negligence course or read
a casebook is going to be very reluctant to tell people to do something
he doesn't know for sure is safe.

>How can that be?

The fireplace has a chimney to expel exhaust gases. The moment you
just mentioned the fireplace, I thought maybe putting the propane heater
in the fireplace would cause it's exhaust gases to go up the chimney,
but I don't know. When you first light a fire in a fireplace, the
smoke (and the other products of combustion) will fill the room unless
you've heated the air in the chimney somewhat. I usually take roll up
some loose newspaper to look like a little torch, light that and hold
it in the chimney for 5 or 10 seconds (I forget) and that warms it up.

I don't have a feel for what a propane heater would do either with or
without heating the air in the chimney, and since aiui the heater makes
no smoke, you couldn't tell by looking if the exhaust gas was going up
the chimney.

>
>Billions of people have fireplaces in their homes.

With chimneys :-)

>How is this propane heater any different?

Maybe you could call the people who make Buddy and/or any of the other
makers of propane heaters and ask if they are suitable. for an indoor
room in a non-drafty house, one with storm windows if you have storm
windows, and when they say No, ask if putting the heater in a fireplace
would make it okay. I would call more than one manufacturer, and I
don't think it's immoral even to call one you're almost sure you won't
buy from, especially if you come back here and tell us what they said.
Find a model they sell similar to the Buddy you think you will buy.

One of the articles I read said that the Buddy, I think it was, was
safer than non-indoor models because it had vents. That sounds like
nonsense. What do they vent where? From the inside of the heater to
the outside? Of course, what else, why would that make it safe. Venting
to outside the house would make it safe.

Another article said "sensors" and I guess they're counting a tip-over
sensor and the low oxygen sensor, so only one of those protects agaisnt
CO.

YOu could also get a CO alarm for that room. My brother gives the best
gifts, and I'd not even thought of getting one but he gave me one and I
put it in the bedroom and one night in the middle of the night it blared
me awake. I turned off the furnace and opened the window. It was
fairly cold in the bedroom when I closed the window, reluctantly, and I
couldn't use the furnace all night until I exmamined it the next day. I
had fiddled with the air intake for the oil furnace and I learned that I
messed it up. The 4" exhaust pipe for the furnace had 1 1/2 inches of
soot all around the inside and only 1" for the exhaust, making it 1/16th
what it should have been. I had to go buy a better, bigger wet/dry
vacuum that could use soot filters in order to clean it. Or maybe first
I called the oil company to clean the furnace. Most years it would
only have a quarter inch or less of soot, iirc.

https://paracogas.com/blog/can-you-use-a-propane-heater-indoors This is
short but on point. Be sure to read the comment by Paul Barbie.


I googled: putting a small propane heater in a fireplace But most of
the hits still were not about your situation.


Based on the title, I thought this wwould be more relevant but it's only
10 minutes: https://youtu.be/AsP9ebLqEow
Note that they let a girl do the narrating and some of the work, but all
the work with power tools, except the drill, is done by a boy.

[Patrick]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 22:55:08 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:
> The fireplace is illegal and unsafe if it does not have a non-flamable
> hearth around it extending a few feet out and to both sides of the
> fireplace opening. Not an issue with a propane insert.

The fireplace is in the center of the tall-ceiling room along a 3/4 wall,
with the bigger room on one side of the two-sided fireplace, and the other
side opens into a smaller room. There is a ceiling fan & balcony door too.

Windows are everywhere as there's a wrap-around balcony all along one room.
There's a full bathroom and walkin closet since this is the master bedroom.

The fireplace itself is white tile for about 18 inches all around on the
walls, and there is a six-inch-tall tiled "step" on both sides which is
about two feet deep. There are heavy chainlink "fenches" on each side too.

The walls are white gypsum board with a stucco-like finish and the room is
carpeted everywhere else - which is why a wood-burning fire is a pita.

The propane has a valve opened by a key in the wall which has to be lit
with a flame which just spits out a short flame out of a couple dozen holes
drilled into a straight pipe about two inches (or whatever) along the
centerline of the fireplace. The flue has a vent whose valve is chocked
open which I'm told is the law that it has to be 1/4 open all year round.

While some rooms in the house have floor vents and others ceiling vents,
this room only has wall suckers and blowers for the forced-air propane
heating (there's a large propane tank outside that is filled periodically).