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Is it legal to lock a main breaker box?
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geneth...@none.com
Jun 9, 2012, 4:16:49 AM6/9/12
to
I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.
I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
company?????
Anyone know anything about this?
One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.
Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)
Gene
outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
If you look on the bottom, there is the tab that sticks out with the
hole, which is meant for a small padlock. The problem is that the box,
had a plastic tab. Why the manufacturer used a plastic tab (the rest of
the box is metal), is beyond me. It had a lock on it, but the plastic
tab broke off, and ever since people keep shutting off the power at
least once a month. That affects all kinds of electronic equipment
inside, and disrupts business. The business owner is a woman who dont
understand all the technical issues, she just wants the box to be tamper
proof. I told her I'd see what can be done, and will install something
if possible.
I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do.
I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
company?????
Anyone know anything about this?
One other thought was to drill a hole right below that slot and just use
a cable tie through the slot and the hole. Anyone can cut it off, but
it might be enough to discourage them. Right now all they need to do is
lift the cover and shut off the breaker. At least a cable tie would
require more effort by tamperers, and still be easily cut in an
emergency.
Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
(Are the codes available online?)
Gene
Message has been deleted
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 9, 2012, 7:40:47 AM6/9/12
to
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, geneth...@none.com wrote:
>I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
>outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
>building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
>individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
>http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
>
>
>I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
>outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
>building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
>individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
>http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
>
>
>I suggested drilling a few holes and putting a hasp on the box, with pop
>rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
>legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
>might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do.
>I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
>company?????
>
>Anyone know anything about this?
If it was high voltage, even inside it would be required to have a
>rivets and padlocking it, but I tend to wonder if there is any sort of
>legal requirements. I suppose in the event of a fire, the Fire Dept
>might want to shut off the power. This makes me question what to do.
>I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
>company?????
>
>Anyone know anything about this?
lock. In this case, code or not, it world be locked.
notbob
Jun 9, 2012, 8:47:20 AM6/9/12
to
It's complicated by local state laws. They are probably all
different. It's also bizarre cuz of onwnership.
Case in point. Back when young and communal living was common, my
wife and I shared expenses with another couple on the home we rented.
One day, the ditzy blonde of the couple declared they were not going
to pay rent, that month, like it was some kinda lifestyle choice. I
ended up having to break the lease and move out, paying some hefty
penalties. The couple decided they were NOT gonna move out and
essentially squat. The electric service was in my name. I called the
utility and told 'em to cut it off. They told me as long as there was
someone living in the house, the would not discontinue service. I
went to the house, turned off the pwr, and put a lock on the breaker
box. The utility found out and demanded I remove the lock. I told
'em not until the shut off service, which they finally did.
The whole episode was ludicrous in the extreme. The box is not the
utility company's. It's installed and owned by the homeowner. So how
come they can dictate its use. Also, they would have no problem
turning off pwr if I failed to pay the bill. Why did they insist they
couldn't turn off the power when someone was illegally using it. To
this day I despise PG&E and jerk 'em around whenever possible.
I would suggest calling the public utilities commision (PUC) in your
state. OTOH, they're no doubt in the major electric utility's pocket
and will refer you back to the utility, but it's worth a shot.
They're all lying scumsucking dirtbags of the worst sort.
nb
--
vi --the heart of evil!
Support labeling GMOs
<http://www.labelgmos.org/>
different. It's also bizarre cuz of onwnership.
Case in point. Back when young and communal living was common, my
wife and I shared expenses with another couple on the home we rented.
One day, the ditzy blonde of the couple declared they were not going
to pay rent, that month, like it was some kinda lifestyle choice. I
ended up having to break the lease and move out, paying some hefty
penalties. The couple decided they were NOT gonna move out and
essentially squat. The electric service was in my name. I called the
utility and told 'em to cut it off. They told me as long as there was
someone living in the house, the would not discontinue service. I
went to the house, turned off the pwr, and put a lock on the breaker
box. The utility found out and demanded I remove the lock. I told
'em not until the shut off service, which they finally did.
The whole episode was ludicrous in the extreme. The box is not the
utility company's. It's installed and owned by the homeowner. So how
come they can dictate its use. Also, they would have no problem
turning off pwr if I failed to pay the bill. Why did they insist they
couldn't turn off the power when someone was illegally using it. To
this day I despise PG&E and jerk 'em around whenever possible.
I would suggest calling the public utilities commision (PUC) in your
state. OTOH, they're no doubt in the major electric utility's pocket
and will refer you back to the utility, but it's worth a shot.
They're all lying scumsucking dirtbags of the worst sort.
nb
--
vi --the heart of evil!
Support labeling GMOs
<http://www.labelgmos.org/>
Steve B
Jun 9, 2012, 12:55:49 PM6/9/12
to
<geneth...@none.com> wrote in message
news:fhv5t7p8b005ksu41...@4ax.com...
would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people
have a key or combo.
Steve
Ralph Mowery
Jun 9, 2012, 1:07:20 PM6/9/12
to
"Steve B" <ste...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jqvv6j$g5k$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>
> > I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA,
> > there
> would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people
> have a key or combo.
>
> Steve
>
I think you may have it backwards. OSHA is concerned about locking
> > I would say that just based on the lockout/tagout statutes of OSHA,
> > there
> would be no problem about locking it. Just make sure the necessary people
> have a key or combo.
>
> Steve
>
electrical items so no power can be applied.
At work there are atleast 100 breaker panels. We put hasps on them to lock
them. Later we were told that we could not do this and to take all the
hasps off. Seems that it is not legal to lock a breaker in the ON
position. We have to lock out each circuit in the panel when we work on
them instead of locking some off and some on.
The rules are very 'funny' from one time to the next and maybe even in each
city.
While they probably will not know, it is best to check with someone in the
electrical inspector department of the area you live.
Tomsic
Jun 9, 2012, 1:31:33 PM6/9/12
to
Enforcement of that code is up to the local electrical inspector. So, call
the city or county office in your area and talk to the electrical inspector
(no charge) and ask what you should do. If you can get something printed or
written from the inspector's office on the subject, that's even better. It
would be worth your while to go to the office and talk personally if that's
possible.
Once you know what to do and complete the work, you may have to have it
inspected and there could be a charge for that -- or you may even need a
permit (not very likely) and there is sure to be a charge for that.
Anyway, work with the inspector who has probably encountered the situation
before.
Tomsic
Evan
Jun 9, 2012, 1:56:14 PM6/9/12
to
On Jun 9, 4:31 am, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
> to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
> prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
> key.
>
> The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
> in.
>
> The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
> not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
> containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
> necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."
You are so full of shit, may AHJ's require total access
to buildings protected by a fire alarm system which
is connected to the fire departments dispatcher...
So yes, given the commercial occupancy access
to the main utility cut offs no matter what flavor
is something the fire department will have a say over...
A lock box containing keys which open the whole
building is how a lot of those AHJ's define
"readily accessible"...
> to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
> prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
> key.
>
> The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
> in.
>
> The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
> not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
> containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
> necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."
You are so full of shit, may AHJ's require total access
to buildings protected by a fire alarm system which
is connected to the fire departments dispatcher...
So yes, given the commercial occupancy access
to the main utility cut offs no matter what flavor
is something the fire department will have a say over...
A lock box containing keys which open the whole
building is how a lot of those AHJ's define
"readily accessible"...
HeyBub
Jun 9, 2012, 2:03:29 PM6/9/12
to
a/c compressor coil thieves.
A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.
Evan
Jun 9, 2012, 2:04:25 PM6/9/12
to
arranged in this manner got hosed by the contractor which
installed that particular style of enclosure given its location
and the fact that it can be tampered with...
You should look at what possible replacements you could
install which would be more tamper resistant... Installing
an accessory padlock hasp on the particular enclosure
you have now might only result in damage to the
enclosure the next time the pranksters want to play at
flipping the switch...
Is that the only means of service disconnect ?
Is the meter can located adjacent to it ?
Is the breaker panel inside main lug only or does it
have an additional means of disconnect {a main breaker)
also ?
It seems like the question to ask is why that specific
type of equipment was installed... Was it required
by the AHJ or was it just the best the contractor
who installed it could cobble together ?
Message has been deleted
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jun 9, 2012, 3:56:26 PM6/9/12
to
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 14:53:34 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>And your qualifications to call someone who quotes NFPA "full of shit"
>is ???
>
>Cite the NEC rule that says the disconnect can't be inside a locked
>door.
Darn thing should be INSIDE the building, for starters.
In the office building where I work every morning, both the main
transformer vault and the electrical service room, which contains a
couple smaller transformers, main disconnect, several timers and 2 sub
panels are under lock and key at all times. 2 other sub-panels are
located in the kitchen. All 4 sub-panels have key-locks on the doors,
but are not locked. This is in Canada - so could be different in the
USA.
>is ???
>
>Cite the NEC rule that says the disconnect can't be inside a locked
>door.
Darn thing should be INSIDE the building, for starters.
In the office building where I work every morning, both the main
transformer vault and the electrical service room, which contains a
couple smaller transformers, main disconnect, several timers and 2 sub
panels are under lock and key at all times. 2 other sub-panels are
located in the kitchen. All 4 sub-panels have key-locks on the doors,
but are not locked. This is in Canada - so could be different in the
USA.
Jim Yanik
Jun 9, 2012, 4:17:39 PM6/9/12
to
"Ralph Mowery" <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:WKWdndpRJNlaH07S...@earthlink.com:
In our TEKTRONIX field service center,we had a master cutoff button in the
middle of the shop,easily accessible,that would shut down the entire shop's
power,in case of someone getting "connected" while working on an energized
instrument.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
news:WKWdndpRJNlaH07S...@earthlink.com:
middle of the shop,easily accessible,that would shut down the entire shop's
power,in case of someone getting "connected" while working on an energized
instrument.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
TomR
Jun 9, 2012, 4:18:01 PM6/9/12
to
gfre...@aol.com wrote:
http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications/Inspections/2008%20National%20Electrical%20Code.pdf
It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
free account or log in.
> This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
> to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
> prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
> key.
>
> The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
> in.
>
> The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
> not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
> containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
> necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."
Thanks for that answer. I am interested in the same question as the OP
about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.
From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a copy of
the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate
protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry
bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an
emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.
Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is located?
The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome to use so finding
the correct citation is sometimes a problem.
For those who posted that the contractor should not have put the main cutoff
outside, that is a requirement in some areas for some types of buildings
(commercial, multiple dwellings, etc). And, my understanding is that the
purpose is so that the local fire department can cut off the power in an
emergency.
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, geneth...@none.com wrote:
>
>> I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
>> outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
>> building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
>> individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
>> http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
>> . . . . ,
>
>> I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
>> outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
>> building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
>> individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
>> http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
>> Anyone know anything about this?
>> . . . . ,
>> Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
>> (Are the codes available online?)
Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, here:
>> (Are the codes available online?)
http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications/Inspections/2008%20National%20Electrical%20Code.pdf
It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
free account or log in.
> This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
> to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
> prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
> key.
>
> The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
> in.
>
> The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
> not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
> containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
> necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."
about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.
From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a copy of
the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate
protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry
bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an
emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.
Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is located?
The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome to use so finding
the correct citation is sometimes a problem.
For those who posted that the contractor should not have put the main cutoff
outside, that is a requirement in some areas for some types of buildings
(commercial, multiple dwellings, etc). And, my understanding is that the
purpose is so that the local fire department can cut off the power in an
emergency.
Message has been deleted
Oren
Jun 9, 2012, 8:42:40 PM6/9/12
to
>Anyone know anything about this?
I do know you NYM shift, regularly. On a daily basis.
What say you?
bob haller
Jun 9, 2012, 8:46:15 PM6/9/12
to
On Jun 9, 4:17 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
> "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28...@earthlink.net> wrote innews:WKWdndpRJNlaH07S...@earthlink.com:
we had that at my technical school, a master safety off. the room has
been reused for other things but the wood floor and that buttons box
are still there unused.....
electronics has morphed into computers, my step son is taking that
class......
good old AW Beattie tech school, now renamed career center
> "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28...@earthlink.net> wrote innews:WKWdndpRJNlaH07S...@earthlink.com:
been reused for other things but the wood floor and that buttons box
are still there unused.....
electronics has morphed into computers, my step son is taking that
class......
good old AW Beattie tech school, now renamed career center
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 9, 2012, 10:11:37 PM6/9/12
to
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" <To...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>>> (Are the codes available online?)
>
>Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, here:
>http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications/Inspections/2008%20National%20Electrical%20Code.pdf
>
>It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
>document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
>free account or log in.
>
You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file.
>>> (Are the codes available online?)
>
>Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, here:
>http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications/Inspections/2008%20National%20Electrical%20Code.pdf
>
>It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
>document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
>free account or log in.
>
Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link.
IMPORTANT NOTICES AND DISCLAIMERS CONCERNING NFPA DOCUMENTS
NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY CONCERNING THE USE OF NFPA
DOCUMENTS
NFPA codes, standards, recommended practices, and guides, of which the
document contained herein is one, are developed
through a consensus standards development process approved by the
American National Standards Institute.
This process brings together volunteers representing varied viewpoints
and interests to achieve consensus on fire and
other safety issues. While the NFPA administers the process and
establishes rules to promote fairness in the development
of consensus, it does not independently test, evaluate, or verify the
accuracy of any information or the soundness
of any judgments contained in its codes and standards.
>
Message has been deleted
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 10, 2012, 8:50:53 AM6/10/12
to
On Jun 9, 4:18 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
> gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem.
With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for
mischef and just open it and flip it off.
With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing
with it.
Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here
they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking
for
the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible,
then
I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power.
> gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, genethurm...@none.com wrote:
>
> >> I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
> >> outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
> >> building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
> >> individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
> >>http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
> >> . . . . ,
> >> Anyone know anything about this?
> >> . . . . ,
> >> Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
> >> (Are the codes available online?)
>
> Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, here:http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications/Inspections/2008%20National%20El...
>
> >> I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
> >> outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
> >> building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
> >> individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
> >>http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
> >> . . . . ,
> >> Anyone know anything about this?
> >> . . . . ,
> >> Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
> >> (Are the codes available online?)
>
>
> It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
> document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
> free account or log in.
>
> > This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
> > to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
> > prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
> > key.
>
> > The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
> > in.
>
> > The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
> > not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
> > containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
> > necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."
>
> Thanks for that answer. I am interested in the same question as the OP
> about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.
>
> From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a copy of
> the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate
> protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry
> bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an
> emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.
That's what I was thinking too. You don't necessarily need a strong
> It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
> document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to set up a
> free account or log in.
>
> > This comes under the definition of readily accessible. You are allowed
> > to put disconnects and overcurrent devices behind a locked door to
> > prevent access by unauthorized persons as long as all tenants have a
> > key.
>
> > The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
> > in.
>
> > The NFPA 70 handbook says "The definition of readily accessible does
> > not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms
> > containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is
> > necessary have a key (or lock combination) available."
>
> Thanks for that answer. I am interested in the same question as the OP
> about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.
>
> From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a copy of
> the key to the local fire department would be considered the appropriate
> protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments carry
> bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the event of an
> emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.
lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem.
With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for
mischef and just open it and flip it off.
With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing
with it.
Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here
they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking
for
the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible,
then
I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power.
Evan
Jun 10, 2012, 10:55:16 AM6/10/12
to
On Jun 9, 2:53 pm, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT), Evan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT), Evan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And your qualifications to call someone who quotes NFPA "full of shit"
> is ???
>
> Cite the NEC rule that says the disconnect can't be inside a locked
> door.
You are full of shit as far as this quote:
> is ???
>
> Cite the NEC rule that says the disconnect can't be inside a locked
> door.
"The fire department is not an issue. If they want in, they will get
in. "
of the above is bullshit as the fire department is one entity
to whom ready access to the utility cut offs is mandatory...
The NEC is one set of standards which must be complied with,
in commercial occupancies you can not get an certificate of
occupancy unless the fire department also signs off, not just
the wiring or building inspector... Having a lock on a main
disconnect or having that disconnect located in a locked
closet or room would not be "readily accessible" per NEC
nor as defined by the fire department without providing a
key which is secured in a fire department only accessible
lock box...
So it seems that any proposed solution which does not
need both the NFPA criteria as well as the NEC (or whatever
local electrical code being enforced) for being "readily
accessible" would not pass muster which includes any
ideas which leave the fire department wanting for a key to
the main shut offs of any utility...
Evan
Jun 10, 2012, 11:04:36 AM6/10/12
to
On Jun 9, 4:18 pm, "TomR" <T...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
> gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 03:16:49 -0500, genethurm...@none.com wrote:
>
> >> I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
> >> outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
> >> building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
> >> individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
> >>http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
> >> . . . . ,
> >> Anyone know anything about this?
> >> . . . . ,
> >> Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
> >> (Are the codes available online?)
>
> Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, here:http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications/Inspections/2008%20National%20El...
>
> >> I have a friend who runs a business. Their main breaker is on the
> >> outside of the building right along a busy back alley. Inside the
> >> building directly behind that main breaker is the panel with all the
> >> individual breakers. The box looks similar to this:
> >>http://www.solarpanelstore.com/assets/ch_dpb222r.jpg
> >> . . . . ,
> >> Anyone know anything about this?
> >> . . . . ,
> >> Is this covered in the USA electrical codes? I dont have the book.
> >> (Are the codes available online?)
>
disconnect outside should have used a more hardened
enclosure... Anything made of plastic and exposed outside
is not of a durable construction...
Also as to the local requirements to have a means of disconnect
located outside, does that requirement actually require the main
over current protection device to be that means of disconnect or
would a properly sized and rated weather tight NEMA safety switch
in the line between the meter can and the main panel also fulfill
that provision of an exterior means of shut off...
Steve B
Jun 10, 2012, 11:05:41 AM6/10/12
to
"Ralph Mowery" <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WKWdndpRJNlaH07S...@earthlink.com...
sure it cannot be turned on during maintenance, either of which might cause
injury or damage. I was an associate degree safety engineer, and understand
the principle.
Steve
Steve B
Jun 10, 2012, 11:07:15 AM6/10/12
to
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote
> A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
> the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.
buy. They are world record holders for popping off padlocks.
Steve
Evan
Jun 10, 2012, 11:09:15 AM6/10/12
to
On Jun 9, 2:03 pm, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever
comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...
building and watch it burn until someone comes with
the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever
comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal
tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the
entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
operations on scene...
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Jun 10, 2012, 11:33:43 AM6/10/12
to
HeyBub
Jun 10, 2012, 11:52:49 AM6/10/12
to
Evan wrote:
>>
>> Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might
>> discourage a/c compressor coil thieves.
>>
>> A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the
>> box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.
>
> Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
> building and watch it burn until someone comes with
> the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
> the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever
> comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal
> tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the
> entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
> operations on scene...
If that's the policy of YOUR fire department, it's time to move.
>>
>> Having a locked breaker box, and a secured lock-out box, might
>> discourage a/c compressor coil thieves.
>>
>> A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the
>> box off the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.
>
> Actually they won't, they will wait safely outside the
> building and watch it burn until someone comes with
> the keys or the power company comes and disconnects
> the circuit to that building from the street... Which ever
> comes first... Fire departments don't mess with metal
> tools near live electrical equipment... Not when the
> entire area and the personnel are wet from the fire fighting
> operations on scene...
Our firefighters are trained to deal with electrical connections, hazardous
or poisonous materials, potential explosive chemicals, and virtually any
other obstacle or threat they could possibly encounter.
A responsible fire department certainly will not wait. For anything.
About three years ago, the apartment house across the street from my place
caught fire. The first piece of equipment was on the scene, so one of the
commanders told me, within three minutes of the dispatch. The fire
department, in short order, had FORTY-TWO pieces of equipment on the scene.
I'm talking vehicles painted red that said "Fire Department." There were
also unaccountably many cop cars, wreckers, and so forth. Moreover, there
were - and here I'm guessing - a half dozen or more pumper trucks attached
to fire plus up to seven or more blocks away awaiting the call for more
water.
A hundred and fifty firefighters are NOT going to be sitting around playing
Scrabble waiting for a Centerpoint Energy truck to meander by.
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 10, 2012, 12:07:28 PM6/10/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
Now what total BS. Who should I believe, Evan or my lying eyes?
I've been there when a fire department responded to a house on fire.
Watched one of the crew members take an axe, break the electric
meter seal and pry the meter out. It came crashing to the ground.
That's what real men do. And why not? It's safe and easy to
do. If they followed Evans armchair advice, there would be a lot of
houses burned to the ground, waiting for the power company to
arrive. And what good would the disconnect in a typical house
do anyway? The vast majority of them are inside the burning
house. Firemen supposed to go inside to turn it off?
TomR
Jun 10, 2012, 12:10:41 PM6/10/12
to
>> Thanks for that answer. I am interested in the same question as the
>> OP about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main
>> cutoff. . . . ,
>> OP about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main
>>
>> Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is
>> located? The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome
>> to use so finding the correct citation is sometimes a problem.
> Access to the service disconnect is in 230.70(A)(1)
>> Do you happen to know where the citation in the NEC about this is
>> located? The free online version of the NEC is a little cumbersome
>> to use so finding the correct citation is sometimes a problem.
> "(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means
> shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of
> a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the
> service conductors."
>
> Readily accessible is defined in article 100
>
> "Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached
> quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those
> to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or
> to resort to portable ladders, and so forth."
Thanks. That really helped and I was able to go right to those sections.
Since Ed showed me how I can do a cut and paste from the NEC, here is a cut
and paste of some of the sections:
===>
Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means.
Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of
being removed or exposed without damaging the building
structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure
or finish of the building.
Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being
reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable
ladders, and so forth.
230.70 General. Means shall be provided to disconnect all
conductors in a building or other structure from the service entrance
conductors.
(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be
installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and
(A)(3).
(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting
means shall be installed at a readily accessible location
either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the
point of entrance of the service conductors.
(2) Bathrooms. Service disconnecting means shall not be
installed in bathrooms.
(3) Remote Control. Where a remote control device(s) is
used to actuate the service disconnecting means, the service
disconnecting means shall be located in accordance with
230.70(A)(1).
<===
One thing that I thought was interesting is the first definition of
"Accessible (as applied to equipment)" which is,
"Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means."
I wonder if that throws a slight curve into to question of whether the
service panel door can be locked -- under the meaning of "not guarded by
locked doors".
I still think that putting a small padlock on the outside main service
disconnect would be okay (with the building tenants, the fire department,
etc. having a key), but I am not 100% positive about that yet.
TomR
Jun 10, 2012, 12:23:36 PM6/10/12
to
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" <To...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>>
>>>> (Are the codes available online?)
>>
>> Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, here:
>> http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications/Inspections/2008%20National%20Electrical%20Code.pdf
>>
>> It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
>> document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to
>> set up a free account or log in.
>>
> You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file.
> Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link.
Thanks for pointing that out. That worked. I know that the free version
> On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" <To...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>>
>>>> (Are the codes available online?)
>>
>> Is the National Electrical Code available online? -- Yes, here:
>> http://www.garnernc.gov/Publications/Inspections/2008%20National%20Electrical%20Code.pdf
>>
>> It is read-only and you can't print it out or cut and paste from the
>> document, but it is free, and this link does not require people to
>> set up a free account or log in.
>>
> You can save it (all 840 pages) on your hard drive as a PDF file.
> Then, as you see below, you can copy and paste. Thanks for the link.
that is on the NFPA.org website doesn't allow cut and paste etc. I think
the only reason that they post a free read-only version is to comply with a
legal decision that stated that if they are going to create regulations that
apply to the public (if adopted by local governmental entities), they have
to make them available for free.
But, I guess that since the link that I posted is from the Garner, North
Carolina government website, they decided that they are entitled to post a
pdf copy the regulations that they adopted (2008 NEC) and make it both free
and able to be cut-and-pasted, printed, etc.
I ran into a similar problem recently when I was trying to cut and past a
page from the 2006 International Residential Code. The only free version
that I could find online was one that would not permit a cut and paste.
Kurt Ullman
Jun 10, 2012, 12:29:53 PM6/10/12
to
In article <jr2d70$5q9$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
Don't they pop the meters if needed?
--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz
--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz
TomR
Jun 10, 2012, 1:11:32 PM6/10/12
to
>> . . . . , I am interested in the same question as the
pulling the meter to cut the power.
One reason that I am interested in this topic is that I have two properties
in the same town that I bought a few years ago. One is a 2-family duplex
with all separate utilities for each tenant and the other is a 3-family
triplex with all separate utilities for each tenant. After buying each one,
I had new electric service installed in both properties.
I had the 2-family duplex done first. For that one, which already had a
separate service panel in the basement for each tenant, the question came up
about whether both tenants had access to the basement. The electrician
explained that with new service being installed, the code required that each
tenant have access to their own service panel and the main service
disconnect. Since both tenants have access to the basement (and the service
panels) -- meaning they each have a key to the basement -- it was okay for
both service panels and main disconnects to be in the basement. As part of
the new service upgrade, the electric meters for each unit were moved to the
outside and mounted on the front wall of the property.
From the NEC citation that gfretwell posted I found this that refers to that
requirement:
230.70 (C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building,
each occupant shall have access to the occupant's service
disconnecting means.
Then, when I had new service installed in the 3-family triplex, I already
had service panels and a main disconnect in each of the three tenants'
apartments. With the new service, I was also adding a separate "house"
panel for the outside lighting etc. And, as before, I was having the
electric meters moved to the outside of the building where each service
entered the building. But, this time, because the property had 3 or more
dwelling units, the local officials required that the 3 tenant services and
1 house service each have an outside main service disconnect. And, in my
case, each of the 4 main service disconnects on the outside of the building
look similar to what the OP has on his building.
My original plan was for the main service disconnects to be inside the
building, right where each service came in, but inside a utility room that
only the property owner (me) could access with a key. Then, in each
apartment, they would each have their own existing service panel (actually a
subpanel), each with its own main cutoff breaker. But, that wasn't okay
with the local code officials, so all 4 main service disconnects are now on
the outside of the building.
I understand why they have that requirement (fire department and other
emergency shutoff capability etc), but it made me a little uncomfortable
since anyone walking by could (and still can) turn off the power to any or
all apartments at any time. All that I have on each outside service
disconnect box now is a short twisted piece of 12 gauge wire holding each
box closed (where a padlock could go). Seems a little strange to me, but
that's how it is. And, it has been 2 years of so since they were installed
and no one has bothered to tamper with the boxes since then. Nevertheless,
I am curious if it really would be okay for me to put small padlocks on each
one -- if any problems with tampering do seem to start up.
>> OP
>> about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.
>>
>> From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a
>> copy of
>> the key to the local fire department would be considered the
>> appropriate
>> protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments
>> carry
>> bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the
>> event of an
>> emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.
> That's what I was thinking too. You don't necessarily need a strong
> lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem.
> With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for
> mischef and just open it and flip it off.
> With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing
> with it.
>
> Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here
> they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking
> for
> the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible,
> then
> I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power.
Interesting. I had not thought about the option of the fire department
>> about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.
>>
>> From what you wrote, it seems like it is okay. Maybe also giving a
>> copy of
>> the key to the local fire department would be considered the
>> appropriate
>> protocol. But, if it is a small padlock, all local fire departments
>> carry
>> bolt cutters on their vehicles so cutting off the padlock in the
>> event of an
>> emergency would be no problem for them even without a key.
> That's what I was thinking too. You don't necessarily need a strong
> lock on it. Just a small lock will discourage 99.9% of the problem.
> With nothing on it, any kid walking by can see it as an invitation for
> mischef and just open it and flip it off.
> With even a small padlock, they are unlikely to bother screwing
> with it.
>
> Also, regarding the fire department in a fire emergency, around here
> they typically don't go looking for the disconnect. They go looking
> for
> the meter and pull it out. If the meter is outside and accessible,
> then
> I wouldn't worry about the fire dept not being able to cut power.
pulling the meter to cut the power.
One reason that I am interested in this topic is that I have two properties
in the same town that I bought a few years ago. One is a 2-family duplex
with all separate utilities for each tenant and the other is a 3-family
triplex with all separate utilities for each tenant. After buying each one,
I had new electric service installed in both properties.
I had the 2-family duplex done first. For that one, which already had a
separate service panel in the basement for each tenant, the question came up
about whether both tenants had access to the basement. The electrician
explained that with new service being installed, the code required that each
tenant have access to their own service panel and the main service
disconnect. Since both tenants have access to the basement (and the service
panels) -- meaning they each have a key to the basement -- it was okay for
both service panels and main disconnects to be in the basement. As part of
the new service upgrade, the electric meters for each unit were moved to the
outside and mounted on the front wall of the property.
From the NEC citation that gfretwell posted I found this that refers to that
requirement:
230.70 (C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building,
each occupant shall have access to the occupant's service
disconnecting means.
Then, when I had new service installed in the 3-family triplex, I already
had service panels and a main disconnect in each of the three tenants'
apartments. With the new service, I was also adding a separate "house"
panel for the outside lighting etc. And, as before, I was having the
electric meters moved to the outside of the building where each service
entered the building. But, this time, because the property had 3 or more
dwelling units, the local officials required that the 3 tenant services and
1 house service each have an outside main service disconnect. And, in my
case, each of the 4 main service disconnects on the outside of the building
look similar to what the OP has on his building.
My original plan was for the main service disconnects to be inside the
building, right where each service came in, but inside a utility room that
only the property owner (me) could access with a key. Then, in each
apartment, they would each have their own existing service panel (actually a
subpanel), each with its own main cutoff breaker. But, that wasn't okay
with the local code officials, so all 4 main service disconnects are now on
the outside of the building.
I understand why they have that requirement (fire department and other
emergency shutoff capability etc), but it made me a little uncomfortable
since anyone walking by could (and still can) turn off the power to any or
all apartments at any time. All that I have on each outside service
disconnect box now is a short twisted piece of 12 gauge wire holding each
box closed (where a padlock could go). Seems a little strange to me, but
that's how it is. And, it has been 2 years of so since they were installed
and no one has bothered to tamper with the boxes since then. Nevertheless,
I am curious if it really would be okay for me to put small padlocks on each
one -- if any problems with tampering do seem to start up.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
John Grabowski
Jun 10, 2012, 5:22:03 PM6/10/12
to
each tenant will receive a key. There are special padlocks that are made to
be cut with a bolt cutter that I have seen on fire sprinkler valves and
fence gates to electrical equipment. The locks have a notch cut into them
making it easier to cut. I think McMaster-Carr sells them.
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 10, 2012, 8:15:06 PM6/10/12
to
On Jun 10, 12:29 pm, Kurt Ullman <kurtull...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <jr2d70$5q...@speranza.aioe.org>,
burning building. The meter usually isn't. Break the
seal, pull the meter.
> In article <jr2d70$5q...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> "Steve B" <ste...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote
>
> > > A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
> > > the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.
>
> > They have the best hydraulic and manual bolt cutters your tax dollars can
> > buy. They are world record holders for popping off padlocks.
>
> > Steve
>
> Don't they pop the meters if needed?
Exactly. The disconnect is most often inside the
>
> > "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote
>
> > > A lock certainly won't hinder the fire department. They'll rip the box off
> > > the wall in a nonce if they feel like it.
>
> > They have the best hydraulic and manual bolt cutters your tax dollars can
> > buy. They are world record holders for popping off padlocks.
>
> > Steve
>
> Don't they pop the meters if needed?
burning building. The meter usually isn't. Break the
seal, pull the meter.
DD_BobK
Jun 10, 2012, 10:11:14 PM6/10/12
to
It's been so much run to have you join in the party at AHR!
If nothing else you provide comic relief.
I guess you don't know any firefighters or seen any in action up
close.
They tend not to do a lot of waiting in general.
It's that whole fire thing, little fires get bigger if left
unattended.
My money is on them not waiting for a key.
That's probably why they study & practice forceable
entry ..........with a side order of "how to defeat padlocks".
http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf (~180 pages of
forceable entry techniques)
http://www.firetowntrainingspecialist.com/items/Forcing%20Padlocks.pdf
Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get
a bit smarter.
I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the
result of serious effort (or injury)
Evan
Jun 10, 2012, 11:02:35 PM6/10/12
to
in question are before that means of disconnect...
You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of
amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main
service feeder wires... That sort of stuff kills...
Fire departments do not play hero with electrical
hazards... If the main switch is locked or wet,
the power is cut off by calling the power company
to kill the street...
Fire departments have to wait for the power company
all the time... Especially when dealing with hazards
due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and
NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks...
If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters
from entering a structure to attack the flames directly
they are quite content to water it down from outside
the building to prevent the spread of fire to other
structures and let it burn itself out...
Evan
Jun 10, 2012, 11:05:24 PM6/10/12
to
On Jun 10, 12:07 pm, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:
LOL... You want your fire department people playing
around like that ? I guess you want your tax money
going to fund the 100% disability pensions of those
injured on duty doing stupid things in non-OSHA
approved ways which would earn the doers a
Darwin Award with clusters...
wrote:
around like that ? I guess you want your tax money
going to fund the 100% disability pensions of those
injured on duty doing stupid things in non-OSHA
approved ways which would earn the doers a
Darwin Award with clusters...
Evan
Jun 10, 2012, 11:11:39 PM6/10/12
to
>
> Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get
> a bit smarter.
>
> I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the
> result of serious effort (or injury)
@DD_BobK:
> Evan, spend less time writing & more time reading, even you might get
> a bit smarter.
>
> I cannot help but wonder wether you born this stupid or is it the
> result of serious effort (or injury)
You are the pot calling the kettle black...
Biggest twit on here in a while...
Fire Departments are under no obligation to
aggressively attack a fire -- so if entry to the
building is unsafe because of an electrical
hazard, they can still put water on the flames
through the window and door openings and/or
douse closely abutting structures to prevent
spread of the flames...
Spend some time learning about arc flash
and other industrial accidents... Even a
small one can permanently disable or kill
you...
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Jun 10, 2012, 11:53:17 PM6/10/12
to
On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Evan <evan.ne...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Have you ever heard of a meter?
>You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of
>amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main
>service feeder wires... That sort of stuff kills...
>
>Fire departments do not play hero with electrical
>hazards... If the main switch is locked or wet,
>the power is cut off by calling the power company
>to kill the street...
What if the main switch is in the (locked) basement?
>Fire departments have to wait for the power company
>all the time... Especially when dealing with hazards
>due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and
>NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks...
>
>If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters
>from entering a structure to attack the flames directly
>they are quite content to water it down from outside
>the building to prevent the spread of fire to other
>structures and let it burn itself out...
Try talking about something you know something about, if you can.
wrote:
>You can get a short circuit of tens of thousands of
>amps if you have any sort of arc flash on the main
>service feeder wires... That sort of stuff kills...
>
>Fire departments do not play hero with electrical
>hazards... If the main switch is locked or wet,
>the power is cut off by calling the power company
>to kill the street...
>Fire departments have to wait for the power company
>all the time... Especially when dealing with hazards
>due to downed wires, they are NOT electricians and
>NOT trained in how to wrestle live wires with hot sticks...
>
>If there is a safety hazard which prevents fire fighters
>from entering a structure to attack the flames directly
>they are quite content to water it down from outside
>the building to prevent the spread of fire to other
>structures and let it burn itself out...
DD_BobK
Jun 11, 2012, 12:11:35 AM6/11/12
to
You are the most dangerous type of contributor to AHR....
you have no idea when you;re out of your depth.
Which, based on your posting, is most of the time.
DD_BobK
Jun 11, 2012, 12:20:26 AM6/11/12
to
First it was a simple padlock on a panel that could be dealt with in
seconds,
now it's downed power lines?
If you're wrong in the initial discussion, change it to something that
might fit your point of view?
TomR
Jun 11, 2012, 1:06:02 AM6/11/12
to
<gfre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:39r9t7lsgbqf3ebao...@4ax.com...
> Did you look here
>
> http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/florida_codes/
>
> Plug in your state.
Thanks. I did find that before at
http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/Free_Resources/NewJersey/2009/09NJ_Residential/09NJResidential_main.html,but I can only do a read-only of the document, no cut-and-paste, no printingcopies of pages, etc.
news:39r9t7lsgbqf3ebao...@4ax.com...
>
> http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/florida_codes/
>
> Plug in your state.
Thanks. I did find that before at
http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/Free_Resources/NewJersey/2009/09NJ_Residential/09NJResidential_main.html,but I can only do a read-only of the document, no cut-and-paste, no printingcopies of pages, etc.
Message has been deleted
Ed Pawlowski
Jun 11, 2012, 6:02:37 AM6/11/12
to
On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 20:28:28 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" <To...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>
>On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:18:01 -0400, "TomR" <To...@tomrljp5.lhd> wrote:
>
>Readily accessible is defined in article 100
>
>"Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached
>quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those
>to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or
>to resort to portable ladders, and so forth."
>
Leaves room for interpretation as to a lock. Any electrical box
>
>"Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached
>quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those
>to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or
>to resort to portable ladders, and so forth."
>
should be in a clear path.
OTOH, turning out the lights is a danger situation and the lock
prevents accidents or even death.
bob haller
Jun 11, 2012, 7:09:59 AM6/11/12
to
On Jun 10, 11:53 pm, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net>
A friend had a bad home fire.
Firefiters cut the service drop lines at the side of the house with
something resembling a pole pruner. this report from my friends. who
had the fire
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net>
Firefiters cut the service drop lines at the side of the house with
something resembling a pole pruner. this report from my friends. who
had the fire
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 11, 2012, 9:16:06 AM6/11/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
You mean like when he told us all that it's illegal to
> - Show quoted text -
vent nitrogen from an HVAC system to the atmosphere
and that you must instead capture it? He still claims
that's true and I've yet to see a reference.
If pulling a meter is so dangerous, going to cause
an arc over, etc. you would think there would be
dead utility workers all over the place. They pull
them every day. Exactly what is going to be so
special about their method as opposed to a fire
fighter doing it?
George
Jun 11, 2012, 9:58:43 AM6/11/12
to
>>>> entry ..........with a side order of "how to defeat padlocks".
>>
>>>> http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf (~180 pages of
>>>> forceable entry techniques)http://www.firetowntrainingspecialist.com/items/Forcing%20Padlocks.pdf
>>
>>>> Evan, spend less time writing& more time reading, even you might get
>>
>>>> http://www.larchmontfire.org/images/fdny_fe.pdf (~180 pages of
>>>> forceable entry techniques)http://www.firetowntrainingspecialist.com/items/Forcing%20Padlocks.pdf
>>
swapout they install jumpers on the horn bypass tabs or close the less
common internal bypass switch on the meter base.
In the case of an emergency with the exception of operating a normal
disconnect switch you won't find any fire fighters in my area touching
electrical equipment. They notify the utility and wait if they feel it
is unsafe to proceed.
Then the utility guy arrives and locates the switches on the primary
lines ahead of the distribution transformer and opens them.
In the case of 480 services the large local utility for our area hasn't
allowed direct metering for over 20 years for safety reasons.
George
Jun 11, 2012, 10:04:45 AM6/11/12
to
On 6/9/2012 2:04 PM, Evan wrote:
>
> It sounds more like the business whose electrical service is
> arranged in this manner got hosed by the contractor which
> installed that particular style of enclosure given its location
> and the fact that it can be tampered with...
Probably not. Unfused service lines must be as short as possible after
entering the building. It isn't all that unusual in commercial
occupancies to have the main panel located some distance inside so the
service lines need to be fused before that location.
> You should look at what possible replacements you could
> install which would be more tamper resistant... Installing
> an accessory padlock hasp on the particular enclosure
> you have now might only result in damage to the
> enclosure the next time the pranksters want to play at
> flipping the switch...
>
> Is that the only means of service disconnect ?
> Is the meter can located adjacent to it ?
> Is the breaker panel inside main lug only or does it
> have an additional means of disconnect {a main breaker)
> also ?
>
> It seems like the question to ask is why that specific
> type of equipment was installed... Was it required
> by the AHJ or was it just the best the contractor
> who installed it could cobble together ?
>
> It sounds more like the business whose electrical service is
> arranged in this manner got hosed by the contractor which
> installed that particular style of enclosure given its location
> and the fact that it can be tampered with...
Probably not. Unfused service lines must be as short as possible after
entering the building. It isn't all that unusual in commercial
occupancies to have the main panel located some distance inside so the
service lines need to be fused before that location.
> You should look at what possible replacements you could
> install which would be more tamper resistant... Installing
> an accessory padlock hasp on the particular enclosure
> you have now might only result in damage to the
> enclosure the next time the pranksters want to play at
> flipping the switch...
>
> Is that the only means of service disconnect ?
> Is the meter can located adjacent to it ?
> Is the breaker panel inside main lug only or does it
> have an additional means of disconnect {a main breaker)
> also ?
>
> It seems like the question to ask is why that specific
> type of equipment was installed... Was it required
> by the AHJ or was it just the best the contractor
> who installed it could cobble together ?
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 11, 2012, 10:40:22 AM6/11/12
to
On Jun 11, 9:58 am, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
So, all your firefighters are pussies? What exactly is so
dangerous about pulling a meter? What is the
utility crew going to do differently than a firefighter would
do pulling a meter on a house or small business? They
show up, cut seal, pull out meter.
We have firefighters running into burning houses to save
people or cats, but we're to believe pulling a meter is
more dangerous?
Geez
>
> Then the utility guy arrives and locates the switches on the primary
> lines ahead of the distribution transformer and opens them.
>
> In the case of 480 services the large local utility for our area hasn't
> allowed direct metering for over 20 years for safety reasons.- Hide quoted text -
dangerous about pulling a meter? What is the
utility crew going to do differently than a firefighter would
do pulling a meter on a house or small business? They
show up, cut seal, pull out meter.
We have firefighters running into burning houses to save
people or cats, but we're to believe pulling a meter is
more dangerous?
Geez
>
> Then the utility guy arrives and locates the switches on the primary
> lines ahead of the distribution transformer and opens them.
>
> In the case of 480 services the large local utility for our area hasn't
TomR
Jun 11, 2012, 11:05:05 AM6/11/12
to
John Grabowski wrote:
>>>> . . . . , I am interested in the same question as the
>>>> OP
>>>> about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.
>>>>
>>>> . . . . , I am interested in the same question as the
>>>> OP
>>>> about whether it is okay to put a lock on this outside main cutoff.
>>>>
> *You can go ahead and put padlocks on the outside disconnects as long
> as each tenant will receive a key. There are special padlocks that
> are made to be cut with a bolt cutter that I have seen on fire
> sprinkler valves and fence gates to electrical equipment. The locks
> have a notch cut into them making it easier to cut. I think
> McMaster-Carr sells them.
Thanks. That's good to know. If I do end up putting locks on, I'll either
> as each tenant will receive a key. There are special padlocks that
> are made to be cut with a bolt cutter that I have seen on fire
> sprinkler valves and fence gates to electrical equipment. The locks
> have a notch cut into them making it easier to cut. I think
> McMaster-Carr sells them.
get cheap little ones that probably aren't even made with hardened steel or
I'll look for the type that you mentioned via McMaster-Carr etc.
Steve Barker
Jun 11, 2012, 11:09:05 AM6/11/12
to
where they don't belong. I've pulled my own meter many times. I just
don't stick my fingers on the terminals after it's out. duh.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
Douglas Johnson
Jun 11, 2012, 12:03:39 PM6/11/12
to
Evan <evan.ne...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Fire Departments are under no obligation to
>aggressively attack a fire -- so if entry to the
>building is unsafe because of an electrical
>hazard, they can still put water on the flames
>through the window and door openings and/or
>douse closely abutting structures to prevent
>spread of the flames...
>
>Spend some time learning about arc flash
>and other industrial accidents... Even a
>small one can permanently disable or kill
>you...
I was a volunteer fireman. We pop the meter out. 10 seconds. As safe as
>Fire Departments are under no obligation to
>aggressively attack a fire -- so if entry to the
>building is unsafe because of an electrical
>hazard, they can still put water on the flames
>through the window and door openings and/or
>douse closely abutting structures to prevent
>spread of the flames...
>
>Spend some time learning about arc flash
>and other industrial accidents... Even a
>small one can permanently disable or kill
>you...
anything can be in that business.
-- Doug
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Jun 11, 2012, 12:38:21 PM6/11/12
to
On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:09:05 -0500, Steve Barker <ichase...@notgmail.com>
wrote:
Yeah, you'd think firemen would be at least that smart. They are trained for
the job, after all.
wrote:
the job, after all.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
denni...@gmail.com
Jun 11, 2012, 2:18:05 PM6/11/12
to
On Saturday, June 9, 2012 4:16:49 AM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
> I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
> company?????
How about the landlord? She runs a business so obviously this is commercial space. If the space is leased, the breaker access is the responsibility of the landlord.
> I'm also not sure who to ask locally about this? Maybe the power
> company?????
bob haller
Jun 11, 2012, 2:24:00 PM6/11/12
to
On Jun 11, 12:54 pm, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
I have pulled a meter several times. its no biggie at all.
one for a broken fuse stuck in its socket, one for upgrading the main
panel, it needed a extra ground bar and tighten some loose stuff, one
had a fried breaker and i didnt want any power at the main.
i called the power company after each one was complete and the power
company didnt care....
they just resealed the meter when they got around to it
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:58:43 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >If utility workers pull them under load as in the case of a meter
> >swapout they install jumpers on the horn bypass tabs or close the less
> >common internal bypass switch on the meter base.
>
> Nope, they just yank them. I watched the guy do mine and 2 neighbors.
> wrote:
>
> >If utility workers pull them under load as in the case of a meter
> >swapout they install jumpers on the horn bypass tabs or close the less
> >common internal bypass switch on the meter base.
>
I have pulled a meter several times. its no biggie at all.
one for a broken fuse stuck in its socket, one for upgrading the main
panel, it needed a extra ground bar and tighten some loose stuff, one
had a fried breaker and i didnt want any power at the main.
i called the power company after each one was complete and the power
company didnt care....
they just resealed the meter when they got around to it
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jun 11, 2012, 2:51:14 PM6/11/12
to
On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:58:43 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:
wrote:
they swapped mine out for the smart meter they just popped the seal,
yanked the meter, and popped the new meter in. According to my UPS
record the house was without power for less than 3 seconds. And the
meter base was NOT opened, nor was power disconnected in any other
way.
>
>In the case of an emergency with the exception of operating a normal
>disconnect switch you won't find any fire fighters in my area touching
>electrical equipment. They notify the utility and wait if they feel it
>is unsafe to proceed.
>
>Then the utility guy arrives and locates the switches on the primary
>lines ahead of the distribution transformer and opens them.
>
>In the case of 480 services the large local utility for our area hasn't
>allowed direct metering for over 20 years for safety reasons.
Likely a totally different situation on higher voltage or 3 phase
>In the case of an emergency with the exception of operating a normal
>disconnect switch you won't find any fire fighters in my area touching
>electrical equipment. They notify the utility and wait if they feel it
>is unsafe to proceed.
>
>Then the utility guy arrives and locates the switches on the primary
>lines ahead of the distribution transformer and opens them.
>
>In the case of 480 services the large local utility for our area hasn't
>allowed direct metering for over 20 years for safety reasons.
services.
ALL of our residential services in my area are underground, so they
can't clip wires or pull pole fuses.
HeyBub
Jun 11, 2012, 4:41:38 PM6/11/12
to
George wrote:
>
>
> If utility workers pull them under load as in the case of a meter
> swapout they install jumpers on the horn bypass tabs or close the less
> common internal bypass switch on the meter base.
>
> In the case of an emergency with the exception of operating a normal
> disconnect switch you won't find any fire fighters in my area touching
> electrical equipment. They notify the utility and wait if they feel it
> is unsafe to proceed.
>
> Then the utility guy arrives and locates the switches on the primary
> lines ahead of the distribution transformer and opens them.
>
> In the case of 480 services the large local utility for our area
> hasn't allowed direct metering for over 20 years for safety reasons.
Boy, you must have a REALLY strong firefighter's union!
>
>
> If utility workers pull them under load as in the case of a meter
> swapout they install jumpers on the horn bypass tabs or close the less
> common internal bypass switch on the meter base.
>
> In the case of an emergency with the exception of operating a normal
> disconnect switch you won't find any fire fighters in my area touching
> electrical equipment. They notify the utility and wait if they feel it
> is unsafe to proceed.
>
> Then the utility guy arrives and locates the switches on the primary
> lines ahead of the distribution transformer and opens them.
>
> In the case of 480 services the large local utility for our area
> hasn't allowed direct metering for over 20 years for safety reasons.
Do they wait for the public works department to turn on the fire plugs?
If my house is at risk because the firemen were too pussified (or unionized)
to turn off the power next door so they could douse my neighbor's fire, I'd
be alarmed.
In an emergency, it's easy. They use something that looks like limb pruning
shears on a fiberglass pole to cut the primaries. Job done.
Sorry about your neighborhood.
George
Jun 11, 2012, 5:25:18 PM6/11/12
to
are using jumpers they just slide them on the tabs. If it has an
internal bypass they move the lever to bypass. In both cases the tabs or
lever are arranged so that you can't put the cover back on if jumpers
are installed or the lever is in bypass.
George
Jun 11, 2012, 5:25:34 PM6/11/12
to
On 6/11/2012 12:53 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> No PPE, nothing. They just cut the seal, pop out the old one and pop
> in the new one in shorts and a t shirt.
Except our rather large utility spends an extra 30 seconds and slips on
two bypass jumpers.
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 06:16:06 -0700 (PDT), "tra...@optonline.net"
> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>> If pulling a meter is so dangerous, going to cause
>> an arc over, etc. you would think there would be
>> dead utility workers all over the place. They pull
>> them every day. Exactly what is going to be so
>> special about their method as opposed to a fire
>> fighter doing it?
>
> The guys doing the meter swaps are doing several dozen a day ... hot.
> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>> If pulling a meter is so dangerous, going to cause
>> an arc over, etc. you would think there would be
>> dead utility workers all over the place. They pull
>> them every day. Exactly what is going to be so
>> special about their method as opposed to a fire
>> fighter doing it?
>
> No PPE, nothing. They just cut the seal, pop out the old one and pop
> in the new one in shorts and a t shirt.
Except our rather large utility spends an extra 30 seconds and slips on
two bypass jumpers.
Message has been deleted
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jun 11, 2012, 7:20:11 PM6/11/12
to
On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:18 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
Don't know what kind of meter or meter base you use in your parts,
but that would be a total impossibility with the residential meters
used by Waterloo North Hydro and Kitchener Wilmot Hydro for the last
50 years, give or take. And they are the same as used by virtually all
former Ontario Hydro (now Hydro One) customers.
but that would be a total impossibility with the residential meters
used by Waterloo North Hydro and Kitchener Wilmot Hydro for the last
50 years, give or take. And they are the same as used by virtually all
former Ontario Hydro (now Hydro One) customers.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Jun 11, 2012, 7:21:57 PM6/11/12
to
On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 19:06:56 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:34 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
>wrote:
>Nothing like that here. I walked with the guy as he did two neighbors
>after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
>have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
>these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
>The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.
Make that VERY well hidden - for safety reasons a meter that could
be bypassed without totally pulling it would NEVER pass Canadian
Safety Authourity inspections (Now TSSA, I guess)
>On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:34 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
>wrote:
>after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
>have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
>these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
>The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.
Make that VERY well hidden - for safety reasons a meter that could
be bypassed without totally pulling it would NEVER pass Canadian
Safety Authourity inspections (Now TSSA, I guess)
George
Jun 11, 2012, 9:28:36 PM6/11/12
to
(and I gather most others just by how common ringless bases are) has
required ringless meter bases for probably 30 years.
Here is a typical ringless meter base:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=100346977&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=100346977&ci_kw={keyword}&kwd={keyword}&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-100346977&ci_gpa=pla
or
http://preview.tinyurl.com/c4y3v8j
You can clearly see there is a tab on each lug. Designs differ but they
all have the same size tab. That way the lineman just pushes on two
jumpers before pulling the meter:
"The USJL-001 jumper lead set is a convenient and safe method to prevent
a customer outage in event of meter removal/changeout. Constructed from
#6 AWG highly flexible insulated copper the working ends are also
machined of solid copper for utmost performance. The working ends are
beveled to permit easy push on installation. Simply push the meter lead
end over the bypass horn and turn the knurled handle until the lead is
tightly secured in place. Turning the knurled handle the opposite
direction will loosen the lead for easy removal."
http://www.utilitysolutionsinc.com/utilitycatalog/2924-29_Electric-Meter-Jumper-Leads.cfm
http://preview.tinyurl.com/8x2mkdd
George
Jun 11, 2012, 9:32:23 PM6/11/12
to
On 6/11/2012 7:06 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:34 -0400, George<geo...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:34 -0400, George<geo...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> Nothing like that here. I walked with the guy as he did two neighbors
> after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
> have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
> these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
> The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.
Here is a reply I just made further up in this thread:
> after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
> have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
> these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
> The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.
Message has been deleted
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 12, 2012, 9:53:37 AM6/12/12
to
On Jun 11, 7:06 pm, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:34 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 6/11/2012 12:53 PM, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:34 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 06:16:06 -0700 (PDT), "trad...@optonline.net"
> >> <trad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >>> If pulling a meter is so dangerous, going to cause
> >>> an arc over, etc. you would think there would be
> >>> dead utility workers all over the place. They pull
> >>> them every day. Exactly what is going to be so
> >>> special about their method as opposed to a fire
> >>> fighter doing it?
>
> >> The guys doing the meter swaps are doing several dozen a day ... hot.
> >> No PPE, nothing. They just cut the seal, pop out the old one and pop
> >> in the new one in shorts and a t shirt.
>
> >Except our rather large utility spends an extra 30 seconds and slips on
> >two bypass jumpers.
>
> >>> If pulling a meter is so dangerous, going to cause
> >>> an arc over, etc. you would think there would be
> >>> dead utility workers all over the place. They pull
> >>> them every day. Exactly what is going to be so
> >>> special about their method as opposed to a fire
> >>> fighter doing it?
>
> >> The guys doing the meter swaps are doing several dozen a day ... hot.
> >> No PPE, nothing. They just cut the seal, pop out the old one and pop
> >> in the new one in shorts and a t shirt.
>
> >Except our rather large utility spends an extra 30 seconds and slips on
> >two bypass jumpers.
>
> Nothing like that here. I walked with the guy as he did two neighbors
> after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
> have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
> these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
> The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.- Hide quoted text -
> after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
> have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
> these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
>
> - Show quoted text -
Same here in NJ. I've seen meters swapped exactly
> - Show quoted text -
as you say. Pull old one out, put new one in. At least
for residential service. Even the maker of the meter
box George points to says the tabs are there to allow
for the option of not interrupting the service. You'd
think if they were critical to preventing some fatal
arc-over, they would say so.
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 12, 2012, 9:57:06 AM6/12/12
to
On Jun 11, 9:32 pm, George <geo...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/8x2mkdd- Hide quoted text -
only in the context of being used to avoid service
interruption during the meter removal. That makes
sense. You would think
if it was an important safety issue for meter removal
that they would say so. Also, with all the meter's out
there without this feature, we should be hearing about
serious accidents where the meter is just pulled. Have
any of those?
> On 6/11/2012 7:06 PM, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:34 -0400, George<geo...@nospam.invalid>
> > wrote:
>
> >> On 6/11/2012 12:53 PM, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:25:34 -0400, George<geo...@nospam.invalid>
> > wrote:
>
> >>> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 06:16:06 -0700 (PDT), "trad...@optonline.net"
> >>> <trad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> If pulling a meter is so dangerous, going to cause
> >>>> an arc over, etc. you would think there would be
> >>>> dead utility workers all over the place. They pull
> >>>> them every day. Exactly what is going to be so
> >>>> special about their method as opposed to a fire
> >>>> fighter doing it?
>
> >>> The guys doing the meter swaps are doing several dozen a day ... hot.
> >>> No PPE, nothing. They just cut the seal, pop out the old one and pop
> >>> in the new one in shorts and a t shirt.
>
> >> Except our rather large utility spends an extra 30 seconds and slips on
> >> two bypass jumpers.
>
> > Nothing like that here. I walked with the guy as he did two neighbors
> > after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
> > have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
> > these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
> > The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.
>
> Here is a reply I just made further up in this thread:
>
> Sounds like you have what are called ring type meter bases. Our utility
> (and I gather most others just by how common ringless bases are) has
> required ringless meter bases for probably 30 years.
>
> Here is a typical ringless meter base:
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?pro...{keyword}&kwd={keyword}&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-100346977&ci_gpa=pla
> >>> <trad...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> If pulling a meter is so dangerous, going to cause
> >>>> an arc over, etc. you would think there would be
> >>>> dead utility workers all over the place. They pull
> >>>> them every day. Exactly what is going to be so
> >>>> special about their method as opposed to a fire
> >>>> fighter doing it?
>
> >>> The guys doing the meter swaps are doing several dozen a day ... hot.
> >>> No PPE, nothing. They just cut the seal, pop out the old one and pop
> >>> in the new one in shorts and a t shirt.
>
> >> Except our rather large utility spends an extra 30 seconds and slips on
> >> two bypass jumpers.
>
> > Nothing like that here. I walked with the guy as he did two neighbors
> > after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
> > have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
> > these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
> > The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.
>
> Here is a reply I just made further up in this thread:
>
> Sounds like you have what are called ring type meter bases. Our utility
> (and I gather most others just by how common ringless bases are) has
> required ringless meter bases for probably 30 years.
>
> Here is a typical ringless meter base:
>
>
> or
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/c4y3v8j
>
> You can clearly see there is a tab on each lug. Designs differ but they
> all have the same size tab. That way the lineman just pushes on two
> jumpers before pulling the meter:
>
> "The USJL-001 jumper lead set is a convenient and safe method to prevent
> a customer outage in event of meter removal/changeout. Constructed from
> #6 AWG highly flexible insulated copper the working ends are also
> machined of solid copper for utmost performance. The working ends are
> beveled to permit easy push on installation. Simply push the meter lead
> end over the bypass horn and turn the knurled handle until the lead is
> tightly secured in place. Turning the knurled handle the opposite
> direction will loosen the lead for easy removal."
>
> http://www.utilitysolutionsinc.com/utilitycatalog/2924-29_Electric-Me...
> or
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/c4y3v8j
>
> You can clearly see there is a tab on each lug. Designs differ but they
> all have the same size tab. That way the lineman just pushes on two
> jumpers before pulling the meter:
>
> "The USJL-001 jumper lead set is a convenient and safe method to prevent
> a customer outage in event of meter removal/changeout. Constructed from
> #6 AWG highly flexible insulated copper the working ends are also
> machined of solid copper for utmost performance. The working ends are
> beveled to permit easy push on installation. Simply push the meter lead
> end over the bypass horn and turn the knurled handle until the lead is
> tightly secured in place. Turning the knurled handle the opposite
> direction will loosen the lead for easy removal."
>
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/8x2mkdd- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I also note that the above clearly talks about this feature
> - Show quoted text -
only in the context of being used to avoid service
interruption during the meter removal. That makes
sense. You would think
if it was an important safety issue for meter removal
that they would say so. Also, with all the meter's out
there without this feature, we should be hearing about
serious accidents where the meter is just pulled. Have
any of those?
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 12, 2012, 10:01:28 AM6/12/12
to
On Jun 12, 12:14 am, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/8x2mkdd
>
> These guys were probably being paid by the meters they replaced and
> they were not doing one extra step. He had 4 in a box on a hand truck
> and he was doing them in about 8-10 minutes a trip from the van.
> He knocked on my door and said my power would be off a few seconds,
> not really waiting for an answer. I told him I was getting my shoes
> and I would come trip the main breaker for him (in the garage). By the
> time I got out there he was putting the new meter in.
>
> I have not seen a meter base like you linked. Maybe they are using
> them now but they weren't when I was working.- Hide quoted text -
bypass. The remaining question is why? I would
bet that the real issue is avoiding service interruption
as a convenience to the customer. That's all the
meter box feature list talks about. If I was doing the
meter swap and was not under time pressure, I'd
do it that way too.
But that says nothing about a horrific accident being
likely to happen because someone pulls a residential
meter without jumpering across it.
> On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:32:23 -0400, George <geo...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 6/11/2012 7:06 PM, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 6/11/2012 7:06 PM, gfretw...@aol.com wrote:
> >> Nothing like that here. I walked with the guy as he did two neighbors
> >> after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
> >> have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
> >> these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
> >> The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.
>
> >Here is a reply I just made further up in this thread:
>
> >Sounds like you have what are called ring type meter bases. Our utility
> >(and I gather most others just by how common ringless bases are) has
> >required ringless meter bases for probably 30 years.
>
> >Here is a typical ringless meter base:
>
> >> after doing my house. There is no internal bypass in any meter can I
> >> have inspected (residential or commercial) I have also never seen
> >> these jumpers you are talking about. Where do they connect?
> >> The jaws are fairly well hidden by the meter.
>
> >Here is a reply I just made further up in this thread:
>
> >Sounds like you have what are called ring type meter bases. Our utility
> >(and I gather most others just by how common ringless bases are) has
> >required ringless meter bases for probably 30 years.
>
> >Here is a typical ringless meter base:
>
> >or
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/c4y3v8j
>
> >You can clearly see there is a tab on each lug. Designs differ but they
> >all have the same size tab. That way the lineman just pushes on two
> >jumpers before pulling the meter:
>
> >"The USJL-001 jumper lead set is a convenient and safe method to prevent
> >a customer outage in event of meter removal/changeout. Constructed from
> >#6 AWG highly flexible insulated copper the working ends are also
> >machined of solid copper for utmost performance. The working ends are
> >beveled to permit easy push on installation. Simply push the meter lead
> >end over the bypass horn and turn the knurled handle until the lead is
> >tightly secured in place. Turning the knurled handle the opposite
> >direction will loosen the lead for easy removal."
>
> >http://www.utilitysolutionsinc.com/utilitycatalog/2924-29_Electric-Me...
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/c4y3v8j
>
> >You can clearly see there is a tab on each lug. Designs differ but they
> >all have the same size tab. That way the lineman just pushes on two
> >jumpers before pulling the meter:
>
> >"The USJL-001 jumper lead set is a convenient and safe method to prevent
> >a customer outage in event of meter removal/changeout. Constructed from
> >#6 AWG highly flexible insulated copper the working ends are also
> >machined of solid copper for utmost performance. The working ends are
> >beveled to permit easy push on installation. Simply push the meter lead
> >end over the bypass horn and turn the knurled handle until the lead is
> >tightly secured in place. Turning the knurled handle the opposite
> >direction will loosen the lead for easy removal."
>
>
> >http://preview.tinyurl.com/8x2mkdd
>
> These guys were probably being paid by the meters they replaced and
> they were not doing one extra step. He had 4 in a box on a hand truck
> and he was doing them in about 8-10 minutes a trip from the van.
> He knocked on my door and said my power would be off a few seconds,
> not really waiting for an answer. I told him I was getting my shoes
> and I would come trip the main breaker for him (in the garage). By the
> time I got out there he was putting the new meter in.
>
> I have not seen a meter base like you linked. Maybe they are using
> them now but they weren't when I was working.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm sure George sees his utility doing the meter
> - Show quoted text -
bypass. The remaining question is why? I would
bet that the real issue is avoiding service interruption
as a convenience to the customer. That's all the
meter box feature list talks about. If I was doing the
meter swap and was not under time pressure, I'd
do it that way too.
But that says nothing about a horrific accident being
likely to happen because someone pulls a residential
meter without jumpering across it.
Stormin Mormon
Jun 12, 2012, 12:04:59 PM6/12/12
to
This thread has taken a life of its own. I'm surprised no one has quite
Aristotle, or Confucious.
Confucious say man who pull meter without jumper in for a shock.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
Aristotle, or Confucious.
Confucious say man who pull meter without jumper in for a shock.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
Twayne
Jun 12, 2012, 3:26:15 PM6/12/12
to
In news:d726b69a-62cd-48c7...@googlegroups.com,
denni...@gmail.com <denni...@gmail.com> typed:
wOw, you don't often get to see a display of ignorance as displayed in this
thread, especially when it's to easy to get the answer from the/a horse's
mouth, not one of the asses here. A few of you were brave enough to feed the
troll, but ... in general he's just a waste of skin without bones in it.
denni...@gmail.com <denni...@gmail.com> typed:
thread, especially when it's to easy to get the answer from the/a horse's
mouth, not one of the asses here. A few of you were brave enough to feed the
troll, but ... in general he's just a waste of skin without bones in it.
tra...@optonline.net
Jun 13, 2012, 9:43:47 AM6/13/12
to
On Jun 12, 3:26 pm, "Twayne" <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote:
> Innews:d726b69a-62cd-48c7...@googlegroups.com,
> dennisga...@gmail.com <dennisga...@gmail.com> typed:
So, of course you chimed in because you wanted to
add to the ignorance and we know you can contribute a
lot. Thanks for stopping by.
> Innews:d726b69a-62cd-48c7...@googlegroups.com,
> dennisga...@gmail.com <dennisga...@gmail.com> typed:
add to the ignorance and we know you can contribute a
lot. Thanks for stopping by.
bud--
Jun 13, 2012, 12:58:13 PM6/13/12
to
On 6/12/2012 8:01 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> But that says nothing about a horrific accident being
> likely to happen because someone pulls a residential
> meter without jumpering across it.
I would be more worried about a horrific accident screwing around with
>
> But that says nothing about a horrific accident being
> likely to happen because someone pulls a residential
> meter without jumpering across it.
jumper wires in tight spaces with 5000-10000 available fault amps.
--
bud--
denni...@gmail.com
Jun 13, 2012, 2:56:24 PM6/13/12
to
Kristi
Sep 25, 2017, 10:44:05 PM9/25/17
to
replying to Evan, Kristi wrote:
All our electrical panels are behind locked doors and signed off by fire dept.
That way as long as all managers in the building have a key to the door or the
manager on duty at the time I don't think you know what you're talking about
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/is-it-legal-to-lock-a-main-breaker-box-700526-.htm
All our electrical panels are behind locked doors and signed off by fire dept.
That way as long as all managers in the building have a key to the door or the
manager on duty at the time I don't think you know what you're talking about
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/is-it-legal-to-lock-a-main-breaker-box-700526-.htm
Kristi
Sep 25, 2017, 10:44:07 PM9/25/17
to
replying to TomR, Kristi wrote:
Breakaway locks are approved by many local fire departments for locking up
areas they need to access without the help a building occupants. however, this
is in California and each fire department has their own standards. Some are
more strict than others.
Breakaway locks are approved by many local fire departments for locking up
areas they need to access without the help a building occupants. however, this
is in California and each fire department has their own standards. Some are
more strict than others.
gfre...@aol.com
Sep 26, 2017, 7:03:53 PM9/26/17
to
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 02:44:03 GMT, Kristi
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to TomR, Kristi wrote:
> Breakaway locks are approved by many local fire departments for locking up
>areas they need to access without the help a building occupants. however, this
>is in California and each fire department has their own standards. Some are
>more strict than others.
Firemen will get in if they need to. There may be significant damage
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to TomR, Kristi wrote:
> Breakaway locks are approved by many local fire departments for locking up
>areas they need to access without the help a building occupants. however, this
>is in California and each fire department has their own standards. Some are
>more strict than others.
tho. Usually they just pull the meter. (mort accurately, break the
ring and pop it out with an axe)
Tekkie®
Sep 27, 2017, 2:31:03 PM9/27/17
to
gfre...@aol.com posted for all of us...
Heh heh heh
We had a stop and rob (convenience) store meter produce an arc blast when
doing this. Major electrical fault. Two sent to ER with minor flash burns
due to having the protective gear in use.
--
Tekkie
We had a stop and rob (convenience) store meter produce an arc blast when
doing this. Major electrical fault. Two sent to ER with minor flash burns
due to having the protective gear in use.
--
Tekkie
cathi...@gmail.com
Jul 14, 2019, 1:34:59 PM7/14/19
to
Are you allowed to lock a residential electric box meter outside by the landlord with a padlock
Ed Pawlowski
Jul 14, 2019, 5:24:03 PM7/14/19
to
On 7/14/2019 1:34 PM, cathi...@gmail.com wrote:
> Are you allowed to lock a residential electric box meter outside by the landlord with a padlock
>
The meter box? Sure, you have no reason to go in there. It is not your
> Are you allowed to lock a residential electric box meter outside by the landlord with a padlock
>
box. The circuit breakers themselves? Different story, you may have to
reset one and need access.
gfre...@aol.com
Jul 14, 2019, 6:49:00 PM7/14/19
to
fire department will get medieval on your cabinet if they want to get
in.
In multifamily the resident needs access to his own disconnect unless
you have a 24/7/365 maintenance person in site. Can he lock his own?
see above.
This is just the NEC
If you are multifamily or commercial you are not talking to an
electrical inspector you see a fire marshall and they have a stack of
other NFPA documents they use. They are all tougher than the NEC.
He is also a guy who can padlock your business, not just fail an
inspection and slow down a construction job.
Scott Lurndal
Jul 14, 2019, 6:53:33 PM7/14/19
to
gfre...@aol.com writes:
>On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:23:58 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
>>On 7/14/2019 1:34 PM, cathi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Are you allowed to lock a residential electric box meter outside by the landlord with a padlock
>On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:23:58 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
>>On 7/14/2019 1:34 PM, cathi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Are you allowed to lock a residential electric box meter outside by the landlord with a padlock
>Locking one in a 1&2 family is largely unaddressed. Just be aware the
>fire department will get medieval on your cabinet if they want to get
>in.
Around here, they just pull the meter.
>fire department will get medieval on your cabinet if they want to get
>in.
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