Surge protector is a lie?

[Commander Kinsey]

I have a Micromark surge protector. Just a plug (not as in to connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges, no cable comes out of it). I was interested in the LED on the front which says "protection active", so I opened it to look inside to see how it knew if it had expired. What do I find? An array of varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness. So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there's an infinitely tiny surge, so therefore can't absorb much of it anyway? What's the point in that?

[Peeler]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 08:35:54 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (aka "Commander Kinsey",
"James Wilkinson", "Steven Wanker","Bruce Farquar", "Fred Johnson, etc.),
the pathological resident idiot and attention whore of all the uk ngs,
blathered again:

<FLUSH the subnormal sociopathic trolling attention whore's latest
attention-baiting sick bullshit unread again>

--
damdu...@yahoo.co.uk about Birdbrain Macaw's (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL)
trolling:
"He is a well known attention seeking troll and every reply you
make feeds him.
Starts many threads most of which die quick as on the UK groups anyone
with sense Kill filed him ages ago which is why he now cross posts to
the US groups for a new audience.
This thread was unusual in that it derived and continued without him
to a large extent and his silly questioning is an attempt to get
noticed again."
MID: <be195d5jh0hktj054...@4ax.com>

--
ItsJoanNotJoann addressing Birdbrain Macaw's (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"You're an annoying troll and I'm done with you and your
stupidity."
MID: <e39a6a7f-9677-4e78...@googlegroups.com>

--
AndyW addressing Birdbrain:
"Troll or idiot?...
You have been presented with a viewpoint with information, reasoning,
historical cases, citations and references to back it up and wilfully
ignore all going back to your idea which has no supporting information."
MID: <KaToA.263621$g93.2...@fx10.am4>

[Slevin]

Simple. When the light goes out you give Micromark more of your
money...but I think you knew that.

[Brian Gaff]

Well, it is probably only meant for spikes caused by things switching on and
off. I did, some years ago buy a packet of Surge protection vdr devices from
RS and fitted them inside plugs where there was room. One day there
apparently was a lightening strike nearby, and my stuff was fine except for
1 blown 5 amp fuse on a lamp. Interestingly these vdrs specs had an
amazingly small reaction time and could for a split second dump many amps,
but only over around 360v ish. So it was what one might call a limiter, I
suppose. Many appliances have something like this inside, I'm told but never
looked.
Incidentally, I had a Samsung Fax machine, many years back trashed by a
lightening strike to the public telephone wires about a mile away. It just
rolled out black paper, It was under warranty, and the bloke who fixed it
changed the pcb saying its a common fault, now fixed by a surge suppressor
on the board.


Of course if you do really get a very local strike, I have seen the result
in a local factory. Every bit of electronics had its mains input circuit
trashed and nearly all the internal wiring had to be replaced and the
sockets were in fact blown off the wall and melted.
Really a sobering thought.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:op.11mvh...@ryzen.home...

[Peeler]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:55:49 -0000, Brainless & Daft, the TV-watching and
pity-baiting senile "blind" mole, blathered again:

> Well,

Well, back to feeding the trolling swine again, you disgusting pity-baiting
troll-feeding senile swine?

[dyno dan]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:55:49 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
<brian...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Of course if you do really get a very local strike, I have seen the result
>in a local factory. Every bit of electronics had its mains input circuit
>trashed and nearly all the internal wiring had to be replaced and the
>sockets were in fact blown off the wall and melted.

I had a ground strike near me a few years ago. Apparently the surge of
electricity in the ground was picked up by my satellite TV antenna's
underground wire. The satellite receiver was fried AND SO WAS the UPS
+ surge control unit that the satellite receiver was plugged into.
Nothing else in the house was affected.

When lightning is real close, I now unscrew the dish antenna from the
receiver and just watch things that I had previously recorded.

-dan z-



--
Protect your civil rights!
Let the politicians know how you feel.
Join or donate to the NRA today!
http://membership.nrahq.org/default.asp?campaignid=XR014887
(use cut and paste to your browser if necessary)

Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

[trader_4]

On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:36:03 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> I have a Micromark surge protector. Just a plug (not as in to connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges, no cable comes out of it). I was interested in the LED on the front which says "protection active", so I opened it to look inside to see how it knew if it had expired. What do I find? An array of varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness. So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there's an infinitely tiny surge, so therefore can't absorb much of it anyway? What's the point in that?

A surge protector doesn't absorb surges, it shunts over voltage conditions. Ideally that's to
a good earth ground, but with the plug-in type, earth ground is typically a long way away
through a path that has impedance. The surge protector still shunts the hot, neutral and
ground together, which limits the voltage difference between them. So if you have an
appliance plugged in, while all the lines could go significantly higher, the difference between
them will be limited, preventing damage. In the case of devices that have other connections,
eg modem, TV, any phone, cable etc lines also need to pass through the surge protector for
this to work. A

If the fuse is 2A, that does seem light, but it depends on what the surge protector was
designed and specd for. Like the other poster said, it would still work with smaller
transients, though modern appliances already have protection for that. Also, a fuse
doesn't have to be able to carry a huge current to work with a surge protector. For
example, the whole house surge protectors that can shunt 50K Amps just use a 20A
breaker in the panel. That's because the surge is so fast, it's over before the breaker
can open.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/11/2023 10:28 AM, trader_4 wrote:

>
> A surge protector doesn't absorb surges, it shunts over voltage conditions. Ideally that's to
> a good earth ground, but with the plug-in type, earth ground is typically a long way away
> through a path that has impedance. The surge protector still shunts the hot, neutral and
> ground together, which limits the voltage difference between them. So if you have an
> appliance plugged in, while all the lines could go significantly higher, the difference between
> them will be limited, preventing damage. In the case of devices that have other connections,
> eg modem, TV, any phone, cable etc lines also need to pass through the surge protector for
> this to work. A
>
> If the fuse is 2A, that does seem light, but it depends on what the surge protector was
> designed and specd for. Like the other poster said, it would still work with smaller
> transients, though modern appliances already have protection for that. Also, a fuse
> doesn't have to be able to carry a huge current to work with a surge protector. For
> example, the whole house surge protectors that can shunt 50K Amps just use a 20A
> breaker in the panel. That's because the surge is so fast, it's over before the breaker
> can open.

I live near the lightning capital of the US so I have whole house
protection. I don't know what protection appliances have, but they all
have some form of electronics today so I figure is is cheap insurance.

I also have a few thins on UPS but more for the interruption than the
surge protection. Only takes a blink for the cable box to go out and
they a long reboot time.

[trader_4]

Appliances have MOVs like what Commander found inside his surge protector.
A tiered approach is ideal, with a whole house protector at the panel and plug-ins
for important appliances, especially any that also connect to communication lines.
I agree with you, I'd rather have a $15 plug-in surge protector deal with the surge
instead of the $500 appliance.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 07:28:46 -0800 (PST), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:

> A surge protector doesn't absorb surges

Let's not forget, all you idiotic troll-feeding senile assholes on ahr that
the troll you gladly keep feeding has a "degree" in electronics which he
repeatedly and proudly uploaded on the Internet! He clearly THRIVES on
senile idiots on Usenet! <BG>

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 08:35:54 -0000, "Commander Kinsey"
<C...@nospam.com> wrote:

>I have a Micromark surge protector. Just a plug (not as in to connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges, no cable comes out of it). I was interested in the LED on the front which says "protection active", so I opened it to look inside to see how it knew if it had expired. What do I find? An array of varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness. So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there's an infinitely tiny surge, so therefore can't absorb much of it anyway? What's the point in that?

Cheap chinese appliances with fake UL and CE labels need fake chinese
surge protectors with fake UL and CE labels.

Micromark seems to be sold in the UK but not in the US.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 09:38:43 -0800, John Larkin, another obviously brain
dead, troll-feeding senile asshole, blathered:

> Cheap chinese appliances with fake UL and CE labels need fake chinese
> surge protectors with fake UL and CE labels.

Somewhat like trolling assholes like him need troll-feeding senile assholes
like you!

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 18:08:16 +0100, Peeler <trol...@valid.invalid>
wrote:

What degrees do you have? You sound like a classic engineer-hating
technician. It ain't our fault we went to college; most of us were
there for the girls.

[Rod Speed]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 05:13:07 +1100, John Larkin
<jla...@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 18:08:16 +0100, Peeler <trol...@valid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 07:28:46 -0800 (PST), tardo_4, the notorious,
>> troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:
>>
>>
>>> A surge protector doesn't absorb surges
>>
>> Let's not forget, all you idiotic troll-feeding senile assholes on ahr
>> that
>> the troll you gladly keep feeding has a "degree" in electronics which he
>> repeatedly and proudly uploaded on the Internet! He clearly THRIVES on
>> senile idiots on Usenet! <BG>
>
> What degrees do you have?

Electronic sniping and a short circuit between the ears.

> You sound like a classic engineer-hating technician.

Nothing even remotely like that, not even a certificate in dunny cleaning.

[Frank]

Surge protectors are a lot cheaper than appliances like microwave, TV or
computer. I had problems with all before using surge protectors.
Living in a treed area, high tension line would fall onto low tension
line to houses causing the voltage surge.

[John Larkin]

It's sad how many damaged people there are. And that they gravitate
here.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:13:07 -0800, John Larkin, another obviously brain
dead, troll-loving senile asshole, blathered:

>>Let's not forget, all you idiotic troll-feeding senile assholes on ahr that
>>the troll you gladly keep feeding has a "degree" in electronics which he
>>repeatedly and proudly uploaded on the Internet! He clearly THRIVES on
>>senile idiots on Usenet! <BG>
>
> What degrees do you have? You sound like a classic engineer-hating
> technician. It ain't our fault we went to college; most of us were
> there for the girls.

LOL Blithering senile idiot! Simply unbelievable! Fucking stupid senile
morons that took over Usenet a few years ago! LOL

[Peeler]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 05:29:00 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal sleepless trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit
unread>

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"Shit you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID: <ogoa38$pul$1...@news.mixmin.net>

[Bob F]

On 3/11/2023 10:13 AM, John Larkin wrote:

>
> What degrees do you have? You sound like a classic engineer-hating
> technician. It ain't our fault we went to college; most of us were
> there for the girls.
>

LOL! Not the engineers I know.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 11:09:05 -0800, John Larkin, another obviously brain
dead, troll-feeding senile asshole, blathered:

> It's sad how many damaged people there are. And that they gravitate
> here.

Oh, the IRONY! Simply unbelievable! Fucking stupid senile shitheads! LMAO

[Rod Speed]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 06:09:05 +1100, John Larkin

<jla...@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 05:29:00 +1100, "Rod Speed"
> <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 05:13:07 +1100, John Larkin
>> <jla...@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 18:08:16 +0100, Peeler <trol...@valid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 07:28:46 -0800 (PST), tardo_4, the notorious,
>>>> troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A surge protector doesn't absorb surges
>>>>
>>>> Let's not forget, all you idiotic troll-feeding senile assholes on ahr
>>>> that
>>>> the troll you gladly keep feeding has a "degree" in electronics which
>>>> he
>>>> repeatedly and proudly uploaded on the Internet! He clearly THRIVES on
>>>> senile idiots on Usenet! <BG>
>>>
>>> What degrees do you have?
>>
>> Electronic sniping and a short circuit between the ears.
>>
>>> You sound like a classic engineer-hating technician.
>>
>> Nothing even remotely like that, not even a certificate in dunny
>> cleaning.
>
> It's sad how many damaged people there are.

Yes.

> And that they gravitate
> here.

But here does keep them off the streets giving people rabies.

[Peeler]

"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

--
Marland revealing the senile sociopath's pathology:
"You have mentioned Alexa in a couple of threads recently, it is not a real
woman you know even if it is the only thing with a female name that stays
around while you talk to it.
Poor sad git who has to resort to Usenet and electronic devices for any
interaction as all real people run a mile to get away from you boring them
to death."
MID: <gfkt3m...@mid.individual.net>

[rbowman]

The sort that carried a K&E slide rule with the magnifying cursor in a
belt holster? I got the same answers with my $1.59 plastic slipstick and
had money left over for drugs, sex, and rock'n'roll.

[Peeler]

On 11 Mar 2023 22:10:58 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> The sort that carried a K&E slide rule with the magnifying cursor in a
> belt holster? I got the same answers with my $1.59 plastic slipstick and
> had money left over for drugs, sex, and rock'n'roll.

Hey, everybody KNOWS by now what a great and outstanding person you are,
senile gossip. You no longer need to tell everybody! ;-)

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"I save my fries quota for one of the local food trucks that offers
poutine every now and then. If you're going for a coronary might as well
do it right."
MID: <ivdi4g...@mid.individual.net>

[John Larkin]

Real Men carried yellow aluminum Pickett slide rules. Bamboo slide
rules were *old fashioned*

I got an HP35 calculator while I was in college; I still have it. We
weren't allowed to use calculators during exams because it gave "an
unfair advantage to rich kids."

Going to college was such an adventure... the things you mention. Not
in that order.

[Frank]

I knew an undergraduate, Joe Dietzgen, whose father I believe had the
slide rule company. Wonder what happened to him and company.

All we had were slide rules and if calculations to too many significant
figures were needed we used log tables.

Working in R&D years later, I once had an older mechanical engineer lab
partner that did all his calculations with pencil and paper ignoring
calculators and computers.

[rbowman]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 15:45:53 -0800, John Larkin wrote:


> I got an HP35 calculator while I was in college; I still have it. We
> weren't allowed to use calculators during exams because it gave "an
> unfair advantage to rich kids."

I'd been out of college for four years before a friend showed up with the
first handheld electronic calculator that I'd ever seen. I don't remember
what it was but I don't think it had the functionality of a HP35 and went
for $200+ early '70s dollars.

Like many programmers to this day, he'd dropped out of college, moved to
Boston, got a job, and was making big bucks to afford novelty toys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpy4ZSzx-Yk

I'd worked summers for the NYS Dept. of Education and those were the state
of the art for the statistical number crunching when they were preparing
the exam pool for the professional or Regents exams. I don't know how many
states do it but the Regents were standardized high school examinations.
At the time you could get a Regents diploma if you passed the exams or a
local diploma which was Podunk High certifying you'd scraped through for
years.

There were a few times when the number crunching went askew and they
failed half the state. Frantic recalculations ensued to grade on the
curve.

[Clare Snyder]

Up here in Ontario's "thunder alley" I have whole House Surge
Protection and my main computer is on a full time online UPS and all
of my internet - router, modems, etc are also on UPS / surge
protection. All services are underground including the cable internet.

[rbowman]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 19:26:00 -0500, Frank wrote:

> I knew an undergraduate, Joe Dietzgen, whose father I believe had the
> slide rule company. Wonder what happened to him and company.

I knew the Dietzgen name from drafting tools. The name is still around but
it company seems limited to drafting paper and film rather than tools.
Interesting family tree:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dietzgen

In some ways slide rules made for better engineers. They gave you a
grounding in reality rather than the ability to instantaneously calculate
a value to nine decimal places, six of which are meaningless.

[John Larkin]

I certainly don't remember long division. I guess I could figure out
how to subtract and maybe even multiply if I had to. I doubt I'd ever
have to.

I tend to over-tip, to keep the math easy.

[rbowman]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 21:29:24 -0800, John Larkin wrote:


> I certainly don't remember long division. I guess I could figure out how
> to subtract and maybe even multiply if I had to. I doubt I'd ever have
> to.

Back in the day I was pretty adept with the Trachtenberg system of
multiplication and I would confirm the product by casting out the nines. I
might still be able to do it with 2 2 digit numbers on a good day.

I don't know when started to do it but I find my subtraction is a two part
process now. For example how many years from 1974 to 2023? tens to become
26 (1974 + 26 = 2000) + 23 = 49 rather than borrow 1 for 13 - 4 is 9,
borrow 1 for 11 - 7 is 4.

[Rod Speed]

I am never stupid enough to tip.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On a sum that simple I'd probably note that 4 is greater than three by
one, and 202-197 = 5 so it is 49.
I can't even really remember how I do mental arithmetic. I had it
drilled into me for the 11+. And it just got instinctive.

I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
No wonder people believe in man made climate change.


--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

[Peeler]

On 12 Mar 2023 02:34:29 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I knew the Dietzgen name from drafting tools. The name is still around but
> it company seems limited to drafting paper and film rather than tools.
> Interesting family tree:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Dietzgen
>
> In some ways slide rules made for better engineers. They gave you a
> grounding in reality rather than the ability to instantaneously calculate
> a value to nine decimal places, six of which are meaningless.

"A grounding in reality"! LOL I just keep wondering what in your life made
such a bigmouth out of you? You obviously haven't yet waken up to the fact
that your one and only reality is, always was and always will be, your big
mouth! LOL

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 12 Mar 2023 05:50:46 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Back in the day I was pretty adept with the Trachtenberg system of

Hahahahahahaaa!!! Bigmouth is at it again.

--
More of the senile gossip's absolutely idiotic senile blather:
"I stopped for breakfast at a diner in Virginia when the state didn't do
DST. I remarked on the time difference and the crusty old waitress said
'We keep God's time in Virginia.'

I also lived in Ft. Wayne for a while."

MID: <t0tjfa$6r5$1...@dont-email.me>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 17:03:56 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>


--
dennis@home to retarded trolling senile Rodent:
"sod off rod you don't have a clue about anything."
Message-ID: <uV9lE.196195$cx5....@fx46.iad>

[Peeler]

On 12 Mar 2023 02:07:23 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I'd been out of college for four years before

Oh, no! Not yet more thrilling details from the exciting life of the
resident chatterbox! <BG>

--
Yet more of the so very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"My family loaded me into a '51 Chevy and drove from NY to Seattle and
back in '52. I'm alive. The Chevy had a painted steel dashboard with two
little hand prints worn down to the primer because I liked to stand up
and lean on it to see where we were going."
MID: <j2kuc1...@mid.individual.net>

[charles]

In article <o54q0ipi2e1pth43o...@4ax.com>,

John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
> On 11 Mar 2023 22:10:58 GMT, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

> >On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 11:28:02 -0800, Bob F wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/11/2023 10:13 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> What degrees do you have? You sound like a classic engineer-hating
> >>> technician. It ain't our fault we went to college; most of us were
> >>> there for the girls.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> LOL! Not the engineers I know.
> >
> >The sort that carried a K&E slide rule with the magnifying cursor in a
> >belt holster? I got the same answers with my $1.59 plastic slipstick and
> >had money left over for drugs, sex, and rock'n'roll.

> Real Men carried yellow aluminum Pickett slide rules. Bamboo slide
> rules were *old fashioned*

I've got one that belonged to my grandfather ;-) He died over 100 years ago

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Cindy Hamilton]

On 2023-03-12, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>
> I'd worked summers for the NYS Dept. of Education and those were the state
> of the art for the statistical number crunching when they were preparing
> the exam pool for the professional or Regents exams. I don't know how many
> states do it but the Regents were standardized high school examinations.
> At the time you could get a Regents diploma if you passed the exams or a
> local diploma which was Podunk High certifying you'd scraped through for
> years.

There was nothing like that in Michigan when I graduated from high
school. A high school diploma was a high school diploma, no matter
if you got it from Cass Tech or Snake Navel High. You got it if you
passed enough of your high school classes.

Only a few states have graduation tests:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_achievement_tests_in_the_United_States

--
Cindy Hamilton

[Cindy Hamilton]

On 2023-03-12, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>
> I certainly don't remember long division. I guess I could figure out
> how to subtract and maybe even multiply if I had to. I doubt I'd ever
> have to.

I can still do long division. I do pencil-and-paper calculations
pretty frequently. Sometimes it's quicker than bringing up a calculator
app.

I had a physics professor who could multiply quite large numbers
(IIRC three digits by three digits) in his head faster than we could
punch them into our calculators.


--
Cindy Hamilton

[alan_m]

On 12/03/2023 07:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I can't even really remember how I do mental arithmetic. I had it
> drilled into me for the 11+. And it just got instinctive.
>
> I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.

You see them all the time on TV and they seem to be proud of it.

The other skill people seem to have forgotten is how to roughly estimate
what the final answer may be for the sanity check.




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-11 09:35, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> I have a Micromark surge protector.  Just a plug (not as in to connect
> an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges, no cable
> comes out of it).  I was interested in the LED on the front which says
> "protection active", so I opened it to look inside to see how it knew if
> it had expired.  What do I find?  An array of varistors as expected, but
> the only connection to live was through a clumsily soldered on piece of
> fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.  So.... it blows the fusewire as soon
> as there's an infinitely tiny surge, so therefore can't absorb much of
> it anyway?  What's the point in that?

Guessing, the varistors absorb a quick surge, and the "fuse" doesn't
blow. If the surge is enough to blow the electronics and cause them to
short circuit, the "fuse" blows and avoids the gadget to cause damage to
the rest of the house. Of course, the spike could still blow the house,
but you will not be able to sue Micromark for it.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Joe]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 10:37:49 +0000
alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 12/03/2023 07:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> > I can't even really remember how I do mental arithmetic. I had it
> > drilled into me for the 11+. And it just got instinctive.
> >
> > I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
>
> You see them all the time on TV and they seem to be proud of it.

I believe it's in TV presenters' contracts that if mathematics is
mentioned for any reason, they must say 'I was no good at maths at
school." Carol Vorderman has an exemption.

>
> The other skill people seem to have forgotten is how to roughly
> estimate what the final answer may be for the sanity check.

A vital part of the calculation when using a slide rule, which doesn't
keep track of the decimal point.

--
Joe

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/03/2023 10:37, alan_m wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 07:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> I can't even really remember how I do mental arithmetic. I had it
>> drilled into me for the 11+. And it just got instinctive.
>>
>> I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
>
> You see them all the time on TV and they seem to be proud of it.

You see them all the time as chancellors of the exchequer too.

>
> The other skill people seem to have forgotten is how to roughly estimate
> what the final answer may be for the sanity check.
>
>
>
>

--

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/03/2023 11:50, Joe wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 10:37:49 +0000
> alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 12/03/2023 07:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> I can't even really remember how I do mental arithmetic. I had it
>>> drilled into me for the 11+. And it just got instinctive.
>>>
>>> I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
>>
>> You see them all the time on TV and they seem to be proud of it.
>
> I believe it's in TV presenters' contracts that if mathematics is
> mentioned for any reason, they must say 'I was no good at maths at
> school." Carol Vorderman has an exemption.

BBC comprises ArtStudents™ only - even when they claim to have science
degrees. Cf Brian COCKS

>>
>> The other skill people seem to have forgotten is how to roughly
>> estimate what the final answer may be for the sanity check.
>
> A vital part of the calculation when using a slide rule, which doesn't
> keep track of the decimal point.
>

--

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:37:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/03/2023 05:50, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 21:29:24 -0800, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I certainly don't remember long division. I guess I could figure out how
>>> to subtract and maybe even multiply if I had to. I doubt I'd ever have
>>> to.
>>
>> Back in the day I was pretty adept with the Trachtenberg system of
>> multiplication and I would confirm the product by casting out the nines. I
>> might still be able to do it with 2 2 digit numbers on a good day.
>>
>> I don't know when started to do it but I find my subtraction is a two part
>> process now. For example how many years from 1974 to 2023? tens to become
>> 26 (1974 + 26 = 2000) + 23 = 49 rather than borrow 1 for 13 - 4 is 9,
>> borrow 1 for 11 - 7 is 4.
>
>On a sum that simple I'd probably note that 4 is greater than three by
>one, and 202-197 = 5 so it is 49.
>I can't even really remember how I do mental arithmetic. I had it
>drilled into me for the 11+. And it just got instinctive.
>
>I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.

It's hard to imagine someone who still does it by hand.

There a manual algorithm for taking square roots too, sort of a
convoluted long division. I actually did that, once.

>No wonder people believe in man made climate change.

How's that related?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yeah, its a bitch. Did that for IIRC the 11+.

>
>> No wonder people believe in man made climate change.
>
> How's that related?
>
>

Only people who cant or are too lazy to do sums get taken in.


--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

― Confucius

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 10:37:49 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 12/03/2023 07:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> I can't even really remember how I do mental arithmetic. I had it
>> drilled into me for the 11+. And it just got instinctive.
>>
>> I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
>
>You see them all the time on TV and they seem to be proud of it.
>
>The other skill people seem to have forgotten is how to roughly estimate
>what the final answer may be for the sanity check.

Oh, I'm very good at that. I do it in front of people, at a
whiteboard, and they are impressed. Usually there is no need for the
final answer; the guess is good enough.

One thing a slide rule didn't do was locate the decimal point. 4.65e-3
can be a lot different from 4.65e-5. They didn't add or subtract
either. I don't miss slide rules. (Or parenthesis.)

See Williams "Analog Circuit Design" vol 1, p 295, "Lightning
Empiricism."

Everybody here should have Williams' two books.

And AoE3 plus x-chapters.

And Reference Data For Radio Engineers

And the Williams+Taylor filter book, not the same Williams.

[Cindy Hamilton]

On 2023-03-12, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:37:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
><t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
>
> It's hard to imagine someone who still does it by hand.

Ah, well. I like to keep my hand in. For anything really
complicated, I use a calculator app.

For something like, "how many square feet is that quarter-circle
flower bed?" paper and pencil is fine. For that flower bed,
approximating pi to 3 works just fine.

--
Cindy Hamilton

[Paul]

Obviously, there is some complicated rationale for what was done.

If you look at a proper design, the protective components have
barriers placed next to them, to contain shrapnel. And this is
to prevent the protection block from becoming a flame thrower
or punching holes in adjacent components.

The components are also placed in a metallic housing (for fun).

So it is possible to make a surge arrestor with some useful properties.
Not all of these things need to be a joke.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/06/from-the-wirecutter-the-best-surge-protector-for-your-home-electronics/

There is a single-plug entrant there, but the physical properties
aren't quite as good.

Paul

[Peeler]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 12:44:32 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain
dead troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

> Guessing, the varistors absorb a quick surge, and the "fuse" doesn't
> blow. If the surge is enough to blow the electronics and cause them to
> short circuit, the "fuse" blows and avoids the gadget to cause damage to
> the rest of the house. Of course, the spike could still blow the house,
> but you will not be able to sue Micromark for it.

What counts for the attention-starved gay Scottish wanker is whether you
demented troll-feeding senile spick will give him yet some more blow jobs!
From the looks of it, both of you enjoy it equally.

--
More details from Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) sociopathic
"mind":
"If I wanted you to stab me with a knife and kill me, you should not
get into trouble for it".
"I would kill my sister if I thought I'd get away with it".
"I'm not what most people think of as human".
(Courtesy of Mr Pounder)

[John Larkin]

There are people who can do digit-perfect math in their heads, to many
decimal places. It seems to be a skill like solving a Rubics cube,
sort of orthogonal to intelligence and often correlated to autism. I
know a very weird male teenager who can do a Rubic in seconds but may
never be employable. [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_calculator

Electronic design works well with good guessing (to, say, 5 or 10%
accuracy) followed, when necessary, with calculating, programming, or
Spice simulation.

I like Spice because it can leave behind commented records of what and
why. Like pencil calcs in a notebook can. For people who comment, of
course. Most Spice files posted here have no title, no author, no
date, no comments, and are ugly to boot.

[1] Reminds me in a scene in the movie "Silk Road." The final bust was
done in the Glen Park Village public library, just down the hill from
us, where we borrow books and vids. They used some different library
in the film; pity.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/03/2023 15:21, Paul wrote:
> So it is possible to make a surge arrestor with some useful properties.
> Not all of these things need to be a joke.

In general if you have SMPS on the rings, you have what amounts to an 8
amp + capacitor surge limiter right there and short transients wont get
through the mains filters anyway.

In short if you get a surge big enough to be a problem it will take out
the surge arrestors only anyway.

My time in S Africa taught me that nothing is proof against near wire
strikes except physical isolation - transformer or opto coupler.

And if you get a full wire strike, all bets are off. You will be jumping
across any short gap anywhere nearby.

Full carnage.


--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

[trader_4]

Varistors don't absorb a surge, they just shunt it.

[trader_4]

Funny then that telecom companies and similar around the world have deployed a tiered
surge protection strategy that has effectively protected their equipment, eg central office
switches, cell phone sites, etc. Whole house surge protectors that can handle a 50K amp
surge are readily available.

[rbowman]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:22:59 GMT, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

> There was nothing like that in Michigan when I graduated from high
> school.
> A high school diploma was a high school diploma, no matter if you got
> it
> from Cass Tech or Snake Navel High. You got it if you passed enough of
> your high school classes.

I don't know if a Regents diploma bought you much unless you were applying to a college. There was a separate test to determine eligibility for a scholarship:

https://www.hesc.ny.gov/pay-for-college/financial-aid/types-of-financial-aid/nys-grants-scholarships-awards/nys-scholarships-for-academic-excellence.html

I forget what I got, perhaps $500 in the days of $2000 tuition. It definitely isn't keeping up with the colleges. I was a less than stellar student so it was a shock when the morning announcements over the PA included the fact I'd gotten the highest score in the county, let alone the school.

[rbowman]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:37:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


> I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
> No wonder people believe in man made climate change.

My first attempt at multiplication past the times table was a disaster.
The teach knew something was up since I achieved a perfect 0 on the test
but she couldn't understand what. I'd gotten the algorithm a bit wrong so
for 2 x 18 I would write down 6, carry the 1, add it to 1, multiply by 2
for a grand total of 46.

Years later an algebra teacher would stand over me and rant 'You skip
steps! Most of the time you have the right answer but if you don't I have
no idea what you did.'

More years later I appreciated her when I'd see proofs up the line of

this long line of gobbledygook is obviously that much shorter line of
gobbledygook. It might be obvious to you, Jack...

[Peeler]

On 12 Mar 2023 16:19:28 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:22:59 GMT, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
>> There was nothing like that in Michigan when I graduated from high
>> school.
>> A high school diploma was a high school diploma, no matter if you got
>> it
>> from Cass Tech or Snake Navel High. You got it if you passed enough of
>> your high school classes.
>
> I don't know if a Regents diploma bought you much

Your big mouth didn't? Hard to believe you never used your grandiloquent
bullshitting and bragging "talents" to make money with.

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"I save my fries quota for one of the local food trucks that offers
poutine every now and then. If you're going for a coronary might as well
do it right."
MID: <ivdi4g...@mid.individual.net>

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 15:10:19 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
<hami...@invalid.com> wrote:

>On 2023-03-12, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 07:37:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>><t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>I cant even imagine someone who cant subtract or multiply.
>>
>> It's hard to imagine someone who still does it by hand.
>
>Ah, well. I like to keep my hand in. For anything really
>complicated, I use a calculator app.

My first calculator was an HP9100 desktop, a remarkable (no ICs!)
design that cost about as much as a Cadillac. It inspired the HP35,
which only cost as much as a motorcycle.

Free42 is a really nice HP calc emulator for a smartphone. For people
who like Reverse Polish.

>
>For something like, "how many square feet is that quarter-circle
>flower bed?" paper and pencil is fine. For that flower bed,
>approximating pi to 3 works just fine.

Or take length*width and multiply by about 3/4. Or even 1. Sacks of
garden stuff are quantized so the math isn't critical.

I think the average citizen does little or no math.

[Peeler]

On 12 Mar 2023 16:43:29 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> My first attempt at multiplication past the times table was a disaster.

HIGHLY interesting! Thanks for yet another exciting detail from your so very
interesting life, drama queen! LOL

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 12 Mar 2023 09:26:04 GMT, Cindy Hamilton

I can't do that, probably not even slowly, but when supermarket cash
registers displayed the price as each item was rung up, I used to keep a
running total in my head. I was always off by one dime, never a penny
or a dollar, and never just right either.

[Bob F]

The are many methods of doing large multiplication or division in your
head very quickly. It is something you can learn. I read a paper on one
that apparently was very quick, but I cannot remember now what it was
called.

Here is one method for multiplication I quickly found.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematicians-discover-the-perfect-way-to-multiply-20190411/

[Bob F]

I think this might be the method I read about earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachtenberg_system

[rbowman]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:18:17 -0700, Bob F wrote:


> The are many methods of doing large multiplication or division in your
> head very quickly. It is something you can learn. I read a paper on one
> that apparently was very quick, but I cannot remember now what it was
> called.

https://artofmemory.com/wiki/Trachtenberg_System/

That's the one I learned as a kid. "The Trachtenberg Speed System of Basic
Mathematics" came out in 1960. I had a lot more functioning neurons in
those days. The explanation is complex but once you get the idea it's
fairly simple.

[rbowman]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 11:30:16 -0700, John Larkin wrote:


> Free42 is a really nice HP calc emulator for a smartphone. For people
> who like Reverse Polish.
>

I still have my HP-16C. If the RPN doesn't get them leaving it laying
around in octal or hex mode will.

One of the languages I've used is FORTH. It's a RPN threaded interpreted
language so putting numbers on the stack prior to the operators came
naturally.

https://www.tinaja.com/

Don Lancaster is a rather strange guy who discovered PostScript can be
used as a general purpose RPN language and did some rather strange things
with it.

I think I have his 'Active Filter Cookbook' around here someplace. It's a
little long in the tooth but so am I and it uses components I can see
without 4x magnifiers.

[John Larkin]

Yes, that's a good book.

[Peeler]

On 13 Mar 2023 02:57:20 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I still have my HP-16C.

...and your big mouth! Never forget about that. Anyway, I'm convinced it
will outlive you and need to be put to death separately. <BG>

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 13 Mar 2023 02:43:46 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> https://artofmemory.com/wiki/Trachtenberg_System/
>
> That's the one I learned as a kid. "The Trachtenberg Speed System of Basic
> Mathematics" came out in 1960. I had a lot more functioning neurons in
> those days. The explanation is complex but once you get the idea it's
> fairly simple.

So, did your mouth take over later, or was your special "talent" noticeable
already back then, bigmouth?

--
More of the pathological senile gossip's sick shit squeezed out of his sick
head:
"Skunk probably tastes like chicken. I've never gotten that comparison,
most famously with Chicken of the Sea. Tuna is a fish and tastes like a
fish. I will admit I've had chicken that tasted like fish. I don't think I
want to know what they were feeding it."
MID: <k44t5l...@mid.individual.net>

[Jasen Betts]

On 2023-03-12, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-03-11 09:35, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> I have a Micromark surge protector.  Just a plug (not as in to connect
>> an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges, no cable
>> comes out of it).  I was interested in the LED on the front which says
>> "protection active", so I opened it to look inside to see how it knew if
>> it had expired.  What do I find?  An array of varistors as expected, but
>> the only connection to live was through a clumsily soldered on piece of
>> fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.  So.... it blows the fusewire as soon
>> as there's an infinitely tiny surge, so therefore can't absorb much of
>> it anyway?  What's the point in that?
>
> Guessing, the varistors absorb a quick surge, and the "fuse" doesn't
> blow. If the surge is enough to blow the electronics and cause them to
> short circuit, the "fuse" blows and avoids the gadget to cause damage to
> the rest of the house. Of course, the spike could still blow the house,
> but you will not be able to sue Micromark for it.

Varistors usually fail short-circuit, hence the fuse. There's no
point wasting money on a breaker in that position.




--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

[Andrew]

On 11/03/2023 18:47, Frank wrote:

> On 3/11/2023 5:48 AM, Slevin wrote:
>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> I have a Micromark surge protector.  Just a plug (not as in to
>>> connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges,
>>> no cable comes out of it).  I was interested in the LED on the front
>>> which says "protection active", so I opened it to look inside to see
>>> how it knew if it had expired.  What do I find?  An array of
>>> varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a
>>> clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness.
>>> So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there's an infinitely tiny
>>> surge, so therefore can't absorb much of it anyway?  What's the point
>>> in that?
>>

>> Simple. When the light goes out you give Micromark more of your
>> money...but I think you knew that.
>
> Surge protectors are a lot cheaper than appliances like microwave, TV or
> computer.  I had problems with all before using surge protectors. Living
> in a treed area, high tension line would fall onto low tension line to
> houses causing the voltage surge.

HT lines generally do not cross over LV lines for this reason.

All the places where I have seen this happens there is always
an additional bare copper earth line above the 3 phases
and neutral, and this extra earth is connected to earth
at each of the supporting poles.

These days the LV stuff is being replaced with twisted bundles
of insulated aluminium cable anyway which should minimise the
problem.

[Frank]

I do not know about their wiring here. Service to my street is
underground but above ground leads to it. In the past I recall wet
branches falling causing the short between HT and LT.

[Vir Campestris]

The way this is done may vary between the US and UK. This is
cross-posted to international groups.

Andy

[Commander Kinsey]

Trouble is any decent surge would blow its internal fuse, which stops it protecting, and the surge then carries on to the equipment. A better way would for the fuse to also stop power to the device it's protecting. Then if the surge is too much for the surge protector, you've stopped the power to the device.

I'm going make my own, with varistors big enough to blow a 30A fuse for the whole ring main.


On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:55:49 -0000, Brian Gaff <brian...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, it is probably only meant for spikes caused by things switching on and
> off. I did, some years ago buy a packet of Surge protection vdr devices from
> RS and fitted them inside plugs where there was room. One day there
> apparently was a lightening strike nearby, and my stuff was fine except for
> 1 blown 5 amp fuse on a lamp. Interestingly these vdrs specs had an
> amazingly small reaction time and could for a split second dump many amps,
> but only over around 360v ish. So it was what one might call a limiter, I
> suppose. Many appliances have something like this inside, I'm told but never
> looked.
> Incidentally, I had a Samsung Fax machine, many years back trashed by a
> lightening strike to the public telephone wires about a mile away. It just
> rolled out black paper, It was under warranty, and the bloke who fixed it
> changed the pcb saying its a common fault, now fixed by a surge suppressor
> on the board.
>
>
> Of course if you do really get a very local strike, I have seen the result
> in a local factory. Every bit of electronics had its mains input circuit
> trashed and nearly all the internal wiring had to be replaced and the
> sockets were in fact blown off the wall and melted.
> Really a sobering thought.
> Brian

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 15:55:00 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 12/03/2023 15:21, Paul wrote:
>> So it is possible to make a surge arrestor with some useful properties.
>> Not all of these things need to be a joke.
>
> In general if you have SMPS on the rings, you have what amounts to an 8
> amp + capacitor surge limiter right there and short transients wont get
> through the mains filters anyway.
>
> In short if you get a surge big enough to be a problem it will take out
> the surge arrestors only anyway.
>
> My time in S Africa taught me that nothing is proof against near wire
> strikes except physical isolation - transformer or opto coupler.
>
> And if you get a full wire strike, all bets are off. You will be jumping
> across any short gap anywhere nearby.
>
> Full carnage.

Well one I fitted at my work (a little plug in one by something like Techtronics) melted into a lump and drew enough current to trip a 32A breaker. It saved a roomfull of stuff from 415V.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 17:38:43 -0000, John Larkin <jla...@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 08:35:54 -0000, "Commander Kinsey"
> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a Micromark surge protector. Just a plug (not as in to connect an appliance, it just plugs into a socket to absorb surges, no cable comes out of it). I was interested in the LED on the front which says "protection active", so I opened it to look inside to see how it knew if it had expired. What do I find? An array of varistors as expected, but the only connection to live was through a clumsily soldered on piece of fusewire about 1-2 amps thickness. So.... it blows the fusewire as soon as there's an infinitely tiny surge, so therefore can't absorb much of it anyway? What's the point in that?
>

> Cheap chinese appliances with fake UL and CE labels need fake chinese
> surge protectors with fake UL and CE labels.
>
> Micromark seems to be sold in the UK but not in the US.

I have a 2kW fanheater by Micromark and it seems to be fine. Had it for years and used it loads of times. Cuts out nicely when it gets clogged with dust too.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:24:39 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Trouble is any decent surge would blow its internal fuse, which stops it protecting, and the surge then carries on to the equipment. A better way would for the fuse to also stop power to the device it's protecting. Then if the surge is too much for the surge protector, you've stopped the power to the device.

That isn't the case. As I pointed out previously, whole house surge protectors
rated at 50K amps are connected via a 20A breaker. A fuse isn't effective,
by the time the fuse blows from high current, the high voltages of the surge will
have reached the appliance and done the damage.

>
> I'm going make my own, with varistors big enough to blow a 30A fuse for the whole ring main.
>
>
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:55:49 -0000, Brian Gaff <brian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, it is probably only meant for spikes caused by things switching on and
> > off. I did, some years ago buy a packet of Surge protection vdr devices from
> > RS and fitted them inside plugs where there was room. One day there
> > apparently was a lightening strike nearby, and my stuff was fine except for
> > 1 blown 5 amp fuse on a lamp. Interestingly these vdrs specs had an
> > amazingly small reaction time and could for a split second dump many amps,
> > but only over around 360v ish. So it was what one might call a limiter, I
> > suppose.

That's how MOVs work.

Many appliances have something like this inside, I'm told but never
> > looked.

Electronic appliances do.

> > Incidentally, I had a Samsung Fax machine, many years back trashed by a
> > lightening strike to the public telephone wires about a mile away. It just
> > rolled out black paper, It was under warranty, and the bloke who fixed it
> > changed the pcb saying its a common fault, now fixed by a surge suppressor
> > on the board.
> >
> >
> > Of course if you do really get a very local strike, I have seen the result
> > in a local factory. Every bit of electronics had its mains input circuit
> > trashed and nearly all the internal wiring had to be replaced and the
> > sockets were in fact blown off the wall and melted.
> > Really a sobering thought.
> > Brian

Did they have surge protection at the panel? I'll bet not. It's rare that much
energy makes it into a building, typically it arcs and flashes over before that
much can get there. And if you have surge protection at the panel, it can deal
with what's left.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <0b772cfb-5bcb-4d8d...@googlegroups.com>,
tra...@optonline.net says...

>
> > On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 10:55:49 -0000, Brian Gaff <brian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, it is probably only meant for spikes caused by things switching on and
> > > off. I did, some years ago buy a packet of Surge protection vdr devices from
> > > RS and fitted them inside plugs where there was room. One day there
> > > apparently was a lightening strike nearby, and my stuff was fine except for
> > > 1 blown 5 amp fuse on a lamp. Interestingly these vdrs specs had an
> > > amazingly small reaction time and could for a split second dump many amps,
> > > but only over around 360v ish. So it was what one might call a limiter, I
> > > suppose.
>
> That's how MOVs work.
>
>
>
>
>
>

The peak voltage on a 120 volt circuit is almost 1.5 times that. So the
MOV needs to be rated for around 200 or slightly more volts or 400 volts
if across the 240 volt lines.
The MOVs are basically open circuits below the rated voltage and almost
a short for any thing over the rated voltage.

[Peeler]

On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 06:37:56 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:

> That isn't the case.

Like what? Like him successfully continuing with his trolling in this group
and getting all you senile ASSHOLES to feed him, time and again, even though
you KNOW what a trolling, insane and attention-starved piece of shit he is?
<BG>

<FLUSH another huge load of senile troll fodder>

[Commander Kinsey]

Surely a surge can come from all sorts. What if you live near a factory with massive motors? What if lightening strikes somewhere? The electricity board might have lightning arrestors, but I bet something still gets through.

[Commander Kinsey]

The 11kV to 240V transformer which serves around 100 houses is just over the road from me. No overhead wires on either side. Can't see any overhead wires anywhere except the 330kV ones from a coal power station, and I think 11kV to a farm, which has it's own pole transformer, but there's never both voltages in the same place.

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:24:58 -0000, Frank <"frank "@frank.net> wrote:

Since when did voltage get called tension?

[Commander Kinsey]

Why twist them? And why not use the better conducting and less brittle copper?

[Jasen Betts]

I think it was originally German thing: "Spannung"

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

[Peeler]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 05:08:44 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts, another mentally
challenged, troll-feeding, senile shithead, babbled:

>> Since when did voltage get called tension?
>
> I think it was originally German thing: "Spannung"

Simply unbelievable: The trolling Scottish wanker asks one retarded question
after another ...and the miserable senile assholes infesting thesed ngs will
gladly comply and feed the sociopathic swine, time and again! LMAO

[Carlos E.R.]

And Spanish: Alta tensión.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[upsid...@downunder.com]

In an ABC cable the isolated aluminum phase conductors are twisted
around an un insulated steel(alloy) neutral conductor. The steel wire
handles most of the mechanical load and often survives a tree falling
on the cable.

In a (nearly) balanced three phase cable, the neutral current is much
smaller than the phase currents, thus the neutral connection can have
a lower conductivity but better mechanical strength than phase
conductors.


Aluminum has only slightly worse conductivity, is much lighter and
cheaper as copper.

[Peeler]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 14:55:05 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com, another
mentally challenged troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

>>Why twist them? And why not use the better conducting and less brittle copper?
>
> In an ABC cable the

Fucking HILARIOUS the trolling Scottish attention whore and gay wanker
CONTINUES asking retarded "questions" ...and the troll-feeding senile
cretins, assholes and shitheads in these groups CONTINUE feeding him
eagerly! Why don't you USELESS cretins just croak?

[Andrew]

And being lighter it means that 40+ old creosoted poles
could have a longer life.

When ever copper prices are high there is a spate of
replacing bare copper 240V stuff on poles with bundles
of twisted insulated aluminium conductors. I guess it
is also possible to have bigger section conductors for
the same weight. Important with more people buying EV's,
heat pumps and heated tubs /pools.

[Vir Campestris]

Hmm.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/rstiv.html

says copper is about 2/3 the resistance of aluminium, and elsewhere I
find about 3 times the weight. so you'd halve the weight on the poles,
but have fatter cables.

But...

Whenever I've seen a pole down it's after a gale. Strong winds, not
cable weight, finish them off. So the fatter cable you'll need for ally
will be more of an issue than the reduced weight.

Andy

[Rod Speed]

It isnt the wind drag on the cables that pulls the pole over.

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 06:09:11 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Pomegranate Bastard addressing the trolling senile cretin from Oz:
"Surely you can find an Australian group to pollute rather than posting
your unwanted guff here."
MID: <c1pqvgte5ldlo1rn3...@4ax.com>

[upsid...@downunder.com]

If a tree falls during a storm on open wire copper lines, the flimsy
wires will snap and the poles are saved. This of course cuts the
electric distribution.

If a tree falls on a bundled cable (especially with a steel wire
neutral), it is possible that the pole falls down, but the electric
distribution may still continue, despite part of the cable has fallen
to the ground.

[John Larkin]

A tree fell, down the block from our cabin. It sent a shock wave down
the lines which tugged on our long feeder and ripped the wires off the
front of the cabin, with the power and cable and old POTS wires on the
ground. We didn't lose power or internet.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lt38qw0yxrulr6v/AABtcYQNALQjZFqOfHV291dea?dl=0

[Commander Kinsey]

So instead of the water analogy, they use an analogy of.... weightlifting?

[Jasen Betts]

maybe a drive chain.

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

[Peeler]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 08:11:13 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts, another mentally

challenged, troll-feeding, senile shithead, babbled:

>> So instead of the water analogy, they use an analogy of.... weightlifting?
>
> maybe a drive chain.

Is there no question by the Scottish attention whore retarded enough that
you troll-feeding will not gladly "answer", EVERY TIME? LOL

[The Natural Philosopher]

if you have ever seen a good close up electrostatic discharge the idea
of a stretched cable snapping is not far off


--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

[Commander Kinsey]

Apparently I have to inform the power company when I install an EV charger. Like I'm gonna bother doing that.

[Commander Kinsey]

You're lucky that didn't cause a short with the stupidly unfused incoming setting fire to the wood.