Water heater - Sweat-Solder or use Compression Fittings?
keny...@my-dejanews.com
My water heater went to water heater Heaven this past weekend. It is and
electric model located in my garage. I would like to replace the unit myself
and save some bucks. A major difficulty I see is that the copper pipes are
welded to the heater. I can cut them with a hack-saw without much
difficulty, but I'm concerned about how I might connect the new heater, which
has a screw-on type fitting. A salesman at Lowes says that I can use a
"compression fitting" on the bare copper pipe. However, most literature I
have read says that I should "sweat-solder" (whatever that is) a connector on
to the pipe. What is sweat-soldering? Does it require a special torch with
flux, or will a propane torch do? Is this better than a compression fitting
(if done right)? I'm afraid that if I use a compression fitting, it might
pop off one day and I'll have a garage and yard full of water.
The heater I am looking at is the "better" ENVI-RO-TEMP 50 gal unit from
Lowes. It retails for $194. The "good" model goes for about $149. I asked
the salesman if this heater had a magnesium, as opposed to aluminum anode
rod, but he didn't know. I'll call the company a little later to find out
for sure.
Any comments or suggestions will be appreciated.
- Ken Young
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http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Frank White
nightmares about the compression joint blowing off while the customer is on
vacation, hence, sweating the joints is my personal preference.
If your just learning to sweat joint (sodier joints) try using a couple of
fittings and some scrap pipe first.
Frank White
Home Repairs & Etc.
http://www.repair-home.com
keny...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<72s016$n7l$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Tony Andric
touching each other, as the point will corrode VERY fast. What is usually used
is a short flexible copper line (available at most Lowe's or HD's). At the end
by the w.h. it has a plastic piece that keeps the 2 metals from touching.
Good luck
-tony
Val
> Hello,
>
> My water heater went to water heater Heaven this past weekend. It is and
> electric model located in my garage. I would like to replace the unit myself
> and save some bucks. A major difficulty I see is that the copper pipes are
> welded to the heater. I can cut them with a hack-saw without much
> difficulty, but I'm concerned about how I might connect the new heater, which
> has a screw-on type fitting. A salesman at Lowes says that I can use a
> "compression fitting" on the bare copper pipe. However, most literature I
> have read says that I should "sweat-solder" (whatever that is) a connector on
> to the pipe. What is sweat-soldering? Does it require a special torch with
> flux, or will a propane torch do? Is this better than a compression fitting
> (if done right)? I'm afraid that if I use a compression fitting, it might
> pop off one day and I'll have a garage and yard full of water.
The soldering is easy to do with a little practice. A propane torch works just
fine. Buy some solder (better make it lead free), flux, and the fitting you want
to attach to the copper tube. Cut the copper tube off squarely, and use a piece
of fine sand paper to clean and polish 1/2" to 1" of the end. Look into the
fitting
and you will see the length of the joint contact - for example, 1/2" for 1/2"
tubing.
That's the length of the tube that you need to clean up to make the joint. Then
immediately smear flux over that cleaned section and on the mating part
of the fitting. Slide the fitting into place and light the torch. Play the flame
over
the fitting and over the tubing about 1" to 2" away from the joint. Occasionally
stab a stick of solder at the tube, just at the end of the fitting. Once the
solder begins to melt you are getting close. When the temperature is just right,
run the solder stick
around the tube at the end of the fitting and the solder will be sucked by
capillary
action into the space between the fitting and the tube. Once you see a silver
ring
all around the tube at the end of the fitting, switch off your torch. Timing here
is
very critical.
Avoid overheating, or the solder will run out of the joint again. I would
recommend
that you buy a few feet of copper tubing and a few fittings, and get a little
practice.
You should also be very careful when using an open flame like a torch. Clear all
inflammables away.
>
>
> The heater I am looking at is the "better" ENVI-RO-TEMP 50 gal unit from
> Lowes. It retails for $194. The "good" model goes for about $149. I asked
> the salesman if this heater had a magnesium, as opposed to aluminum anode
> rod, but he didn't know. I'll call the company a little later to find out
> for sure.
>
I'd say the length of the guarantee is the best guide. Buy a well-known brand
and select the guarantee you want - 5, 8 or ten years, etc. The longer the
guarantee,
the more you will pay.
Good luck,
ValH.
C. U. Later
nine years ago. It never leaked. The water heater has soldered fittings.
I believe the only differences is cosmetic. Picture yourself as a
prospective house buyer. Would you purchase a house/water heater with
"exposed" compression fittings or "streamlined" soldered joints?
Jimik425
there is a possibility of the fitting working its way loose and causing a
flood. But, I work for a very large chemical company as a mechanic, and most
of the stainless steel tubing (less than 1") going to and supplying the
reactors are connected by various types of compression fittings, and in the
past 15 years I've never seen any leak, and they are under high pressure and
temperatures. Using compression fittings at home, there is a good probability
that they will never leak.
Charles Lincoln
>The soldering is easy to do with a little practice.
Yes, "practice" is the key. I remember my first copper plumbing job: for
a dishwasher installation - 4 of 13 joints leaked. That's ok as a
learning experience for someone starting out as a "dyi'er", but for a one
time installation the cost of having it done is cheap vs. the learning
curve. Besides, the installer should be able to bring the new water
heater in and remove the old - easier than waiting until neighbors are
home and available to help with the muscle work.
dar...@worldnet.att.net
wrote:
This is the 90's and it is not necessary to sweat copper to hook-up a
new or replacement water heater installation. Most DIY's don't have
access to a hot torch (which is required) to unsweat 7/8 inch copper
lines. Don't even try this using conventional torches that use map-gas
or for that matter a Prest-O-Lite on these diameter lines. If you do
you are for a long afternoon. THE SOLUTION: Cut the lines with a
tubing cutter and use flex-tubing kits with compression sleeves
(bought at any Home Depot) to hook up the Hot/Cold water pipes and
Pop-Off valve. Another plus, it is easy to line up the water heater
Hot/Cold connections with the flexible tubing + it meets building
codes. The last reason and a very good one [ NO FIRE HAZZARD ] .
Plumbers burn houses down every day, so why should you endanger you
and your family?
Another reason, I have hooked-up over 200 water heaters using these
methods and have never had a leak + the whole job can be completed in
an hour or less.
For more information on really how to Fix things E-Mail:
dar...@worldnet.att.net
hamza...@gmail.com
Sweating is a normal response to exercise, heat or disease. Sweating is important for regulating body temperature and to protect against overheating. There are large variations in the tendency to sweat production. Various diseases can also cause increased sweating.
http://www.oslohudlegesenter.no/
Stormin Mormon
reduce blood flow to injured area. Ace bandages
are a common form of compression fitting. They
can also aid in helping provide some relief of
pain.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
mrprice...@gmail.com
I have done many sweat and compression joints and I hate doing them, though I have the necessary tools and experience.
In this day and age there are new technologies that have been in use for many decades that are much simpler and easier to install and have proven history.
My advice:
Simplest thing you can do is cut the copper (preferably with the pipe cutting tool) go to Lowes or HD and get the stainless flex water heater connector that is threaded one end for the tank nipple connection and shark/gator bite fitting at the other, slips right on over the bare pipe, job done. I have used these and yes they work. They are more expensive, but are incredibly simple and quick to install. I'm sure there will be many who are still skeptics, as I was, but then I learned they'd been around for several decades and are proven technology.
The compression fittings would be just fine also (Lowes also have white pex compression fittings that will fit the bare copper pipe also) have used those too.
I am doing a full house pex repipe at the moment (did a complete house from the water meter on, a year ago). Pex is so simple with the cinch crimp rings and is way cheaper than copper, I have to smile and wonder why when I see folks buying copper pipe and a bunch of elbows, its old school.
The only thing I hate worse than sweat fittings (of course they are great once done) are gate valves! And there's very often a gate valve right next to the water heater! time for a full flow qtr turn ball valve.
Because the gator fittings can be removed, they are really handy during repipes, as you can put on a cap or qtr turn valve for a temporary or transition to remaining work, then slip it off when you continue.
Yes they work and no they will not blow off... good luck!
trader_4
No problems here.
Tony Hwang
And for me it comes around every 10 years or so. This water is way over
10 years old and I don't complain. Sear's 9 year warrantied power miser.
Ralph Mowery
"trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3346c630-4396-47b5...@googlegroups.com...
>What exactly is so difficult about soldering a couple of water heater
>fittings?
>No problems here.
lines.
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
trader_4
> "trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:3346c630-4396-47b5...@googlegroups.com...
>
> >What exactly is so difficult about soldering a couple of water heater
> >fittings?
> >No problems here.
>
> It is not so much the soldering, it is getting all the water out of the
> lines.
>
in the pipes.
Stormin Mormon
The WH I've replaced, pipes come in
from the top.
Stormin Mormon
>
> It is not so much the soldering, it is
> getting all the water out of the
> lines.
>
tough to get the ater out. I saw an old
plumber who heated up the pipe with the
propane torch and steam and water came
flying out the open top.
Ralph Mowery
well and whatever you call that bladder/surge tank holds several gallons of
water. The heater does not have cutoff valves near it. To get all the
water out of the lines I have to go up to the second floor and open up the
spickets and wait.
Even a few drops of water near the joint can cause problems.
mako...@yahoo.com
soldering which takes some skill
compression fitting also called shark bite which may make you nervous about leaks
maybe pex?
Mark
Stormin Mormon
> My house has the water heater below many of the outlets. Also the way the
> well and whatever you call that bladder/surge tank holds several gallons of
> water. The heater does not have cutoff valves near it. To get all the
> water out of the lines I have to go up to the second floor and open up the
> spickets and wait.
> Even a few drops of water near the joint can cause problems.
>
That might be an easy way to lower the water level.
--
Stormin Mormon
ferrule and nut). Not yet tried Sharkbite.
For me, I don't yet trust Sharkbite.
Ed Pawlowski
http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infplumb/infcomp.html
Ed Pawlowski
>>
> I've used compression fittings (which use a
> ferrule and nut). Not yet tried Sharkbite.
>
> For me, I don't yet trust Sharkbite.
>
to solder. Two are in my baseboard heat line where I go from copper to
pex and back to copper. A year of heating and cooling and not a drop of
leakage.
nestork
'Stormin Mormon[_10_ Wrote:
> ;3309763']
>
the top for inlet and outlet.
Commercial water heaters like you find in apartment blocks are typically
1 1/2 inch threaded nipples for inlet and outlet, but they're all over
the place; and typically not at the top of the heater.
Also, with commercial water heaters, and depending on the installation,
you're lucky to get 7 years service out of them. 5 or 6 years is much
more common, and a new one will set you back about $2000. A new one
weighs about 700 pound empty, and they're a bytch to get into and out of
a building without a freight elevator.
--
nestork
Stormin Mormon
> I think all residential water heaters have 3/4 inch threaded nipples at
> the top for inlet and outlet.
>
> Commercial water heaters like you find in apartment blocks are typically
> 1 1/2 inch threaded nipples for inlet and outlet, but they're all over
> the place; and typically not at the top of the heater.
>
> Also, with commercial water heaters, and depending on the installation,
> you're lucky to get 7 years service out of them. 5 or 6 years is much
> more common, and a new one will set you back about $2000. A new one
> weighs about 700 pound empty, and they're a bytch to get into and out of
> a building without a freight elevator.
water heaters. One apartment place, three or
four dead WH lined up next to the one which
worked.
--
Ralph Mowery
"Stormin Mormon" <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PUuaw.428478$Lq6....@fx29.iad...
>
>> My house has the water heater below many of the outlets. Also the way
>> the
>> well and whatever you call that bladder/surge tank holds several gallons
>> of
>> water. The heater does not have cutoff valves near it. To get all the
>> water out of the lines I have to go up to the second floor and open up
>> the
>> spickets and wait.
>> Even a few drops of water near the joint can cause problems.
>>
>
> Does the water heater have a working drain valve?
>
> That might be an easy way to lower the water level.
>
above it. The heater is in the basement. This is a house with a bathroom
that is on the 2 nd floor. That is about 20 or 30 feet of pipe above the
heater that has to drain. If the pipe is just removed from the heater the
water will drip for a long time. I have to go to the floors above the
heater and open the valves so the trapped water will run out.. It takes
extra time and steps to do that. If the joints are compression type
couplings (shark bites or whatever) that water dripping out is not real
problem. I might get slightly wet, but the joint will not leak when
tightened, but if I solder the joint, I have to wait on all that water to
drain out.
If you have long horizontal runs of pipe, that water seems never to run out.
BTW I do know about the breada trick, but that is still another
problem/step.
trader_4
> "trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:ea9e2939-fc44-454d...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Monday, November 17, 2014 5:02:21 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> >> "trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >> news:3346c630-4396-47b5...@googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> >What exactly is so difficult about soldering a couple of water heater
> >> >fittings?
> >> >No problems here.
> >>
> >> It is not so much the soldering, it is getting all the water out of the
> >> lines.
> >>
> >
> > Every water heater I've replaced, the water came out of the pipes as part
> > of the normal process. I don't know how you'd change one and keep the
> > water
> > in the pipes.
>
> My house has the water heater below many of the outlets.
So, when you disconnect the WH, by the time you get the old one out and the
new one in, the water typically has all run out.
Plus, it should have two shut-off valves, eliminating that entirely.
Also the way the
> well and whatever you call that bladder/surge tank holds several gallons of
> water.
valve right before the WH.
> The heater does not have cutoff valves near it.
>To get all the
> water out of the lines I have to go up to the second floor and open up the
> spickets and wait.
> Even a few drops of water near the joint can cause problems.
>
>
disconnect the gas lines, move in the new one, etc, the water would be
done. And hopefully if you put in a new WH you also put in a shut-off
valve. I've soldered many pipes, never had problems getting the water
out. Yeah, it can happen on some rare occasions, but I don't see it as
necessitating using sharkbites on a WH. There are millions of WH's out
there with soldered connections. I bet at most just a few percent use
sharkbites.
larrymo...@my-deja.com
>
> I would like to replace the unit myself and save some bucks.
> A major difficulty I see is that the copper pipes are welded
> to the heater. I can cut them with a hack-saw without much
> difficulty, but I'm concerned about how I might connect the
> new heater, which has a screw-on type fitting. A salesman
> at Lowes says that I can use a "compression fitting" on the
> bare copper pipe. However, most literature I have read says
> that I should "sweat-solder" (whatever that is) a connector
> on to the pipe. What is sweat-soldering? Does it require
> a special torch with flux, or will a propane torch do? Is
> this better than a compression fitting (if done right)?
> I'm afraid that if I use a compression fitting, it might
> pop off one day and I'll have a garage and yard full of water.
>
> gal unit from Lowes. It retails for $194. The "good" model
> goes for about $149. I asked the salesman if this heater
> had a magnesium, as opposed to aluminum anode rod, but he
> didn't know. I'll call the company a little later to find out
> for sure.
and the better heaters usually have 2 anodes instead of one and
thicker insulation. However Consumer Reports sawed through
heaters and found that some higher priced heaters with longer
warranties had no more insulation than cheaper ones by the same
manufacturer.
Sweating means soldering the pipes, and there are several YouTube
videos showing how to do it. Clean the copper mating surfaces
with sandpaper or a wire brush so very shiney, and apply the flux
before joining the pieces together. Rosin flux is OK even for
plumbing. Notice the hottest part of the flame is just beyond
the lighter blue cone at the base, and the solder is fed from
the side opposite the flame and will flow toward the flame, even
upward. Stop feeding solder when the joint is barely completely
filled. Make your first solder joints where they don't attach to
the household pipes because there's less risk of getting into big
trouble if something goes wrong. A regular propane torch works
fine indoors, where there's no wind, but outdoors you may want a
turbo propane torch or even a MAPP gas torch. Also be careful
not to melt or burn anything because the heat can be intense even
a foot away. Buy a heat shield or make one from sheet steel
(aluminum or fiberglass will melt).
I wouldn't mind compression fittings, especially if they won't
be hidden inside walls. Other alternatives are PEX plastic
pipe (crimped or connected by sort of expensive Shark Bite
fittings), threaded steel pipe (nobody's favorite), and CPVC
plastic. CPVC may be the easiest pipe to install and is as
secure as soldered copper pipe, but you must use CPVC glue,
not PVC glue or ABS glue, and apparently some inspectors don't
seem to like even universal CPVC/PVC/ABS glue. BTW even copper
can be glued, but you need to use special copper pipe epoxy and
follow the cleaning and curing instructions exactly.
Water heaters aren't soldered to copper pipes but connected
through screw-together fittings, which themselves may be
soldered to copper pipe.