Negotiating with a paint contractor?
JJVandJMB
whole-house paint job? I've gotten several estimates, and I'd like to go back
to one or two of them who were higher than the rest, tell them about the lower
estimates, and see if they'll reduce the price.
I'm sure I'll hear a lot about "you get what you pay for," and "why don't you
just go with the guy who gave you the lower estimate," and other life lessons,
but this is a pretty straight forward job, and money in my pocket is better
than money in someone else's. I'm looking for a balance between getting the
contractor who'll do the best job, and paying as little as necessary. I'm
talking about reducing the price from $2600 to $2200. I don't want to insult
anyone, but I also don't want to pay more than I have to.
John
Gobbledy
but will haggle with the best of them for a better price on a product. While
I am sure there are exceptions, the 'better' companies got that way by
providing a superior service at a fair price. It is my belief that if a
company lowers it's price, it will make up the difference somewhere else
(quality, timeliness, followups, etc). Call me naive...
Referrals from friends are also very important if I have not dealt with a
company before.
Hal
JJVandJMB <jjva...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000523095344...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
davefrN...@myremarq.com.invalid
the price is firm as long as you don't piss him off.
I think your success will be dependent on the negotiating
strategy you use. If you approach the contractor and tell him
you really want him to do they job and then ask him is there's
"further opportunity for some cost savings to get closer to the
other bids", than he might be willing to come down some.
If you say, "meet the lower price or the jobs not yours", he
could very likely just walk away.
It's kind of a sellers market for good contractors so keep that
in mind as you formulate your strategy. Also keep in mind that
this is high season for painting contractors. If your timing is
flexible that might help.
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renov8r
#1. An estimate is an ESTIMATE. If I measure a job, figure the
materials, consider equipment need et cetera something can still
"come up" to whack that estimate. Most tradespeople try to
estimate a "fair" figure that leaves a little fudge room, but if
the job goes real smooth many tradespeople (myself included) will
write the invoice for an amount LESS than the estimate. Similarly
if the job takes ALOT more time/materials I have to tell the
client the bad news and write an invoice for a higher amount.
#2. Two estiamtes within 15% of each other are essentailly the
same. Go with whoever has the better references. You did get
REFERENCES didn't you?? At leat drive a few houses each has
painted and see which look nicer. Exterior work is easy to judge
the quality/difficulty.
#3. A "PO'ed" contractor does a crappy job...
Good Luck!
Thomas G. Baker
I would add the suggestion that you make sure they are all bidding the same job.
(I have direct experience with clients who
ask contractors to "do a nice job" and leave it up to each bidder to set scope
and others who change the scope as they talk to other bidders.)
TB
John Milton
estimate, but people try, and i am not offended by it. What I do when this
happens is explain my position. I try to be honest and fair in my
dealings with my clients. You asked me for an estimate, and I gave you
one. If you ask me again, this time for a lower one, and I comply, then
presumably I was not really telling you the facts of the situation the
first time, since any reasonable person would assume that you want the
best possible price for the job of work as specified. In short I was being
dishonest in my position in the first place, hoping that you would not
take the time to ask twice. I assume that there is allways someone out
there who will do "something" for less money than what I estimate to do
the job, so the fact that "Joe down the street will do it for half your
price" really does not matter.
Some cultures have a tradition of hageling, it is in fact considered an
insult to agree to the first asked price, fine, mine however does not. I
like it that way.
Eric G.
atitude regarding your proposal, tell them you will do no business with them
nor recommend them. A professional attitude shows a high potential that a
painter will do a better job (always exceptions of course).
Eric G.
Katie
news:00969fb0...@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com...
> Some things to consider:
>
> #1. An estimate is an ESTIMATE. If I measure a job, figure the
> materials, consider equipment need et cetera something can still
> "come up" to whack that estimate. Most tradespeople try to
> estimate a "fair" figure that leaves a little fudge room, but if
> the job goes real smooth many tradespeople (myself included) will
> write the invoice for an amount LESS than the estimate. Similarly
> if the job takes ALOT more time/materials I have to tell the
> client the bad news and write an invoice for a higher amount.
I've never had anyone bill me less than the estimate, but maybe that's just
my bad luck. I have had billings higher than an estimate. When I receive an
estimate, I assume it is the *minimum* charge.
> #2. Two estiamtes within 15% of each other are essentailly the
> same. Go with whoever has the better references. You did get
> REFERENCES didn't you?? At leat drive a few houses each has
> painted and see which look nicer. Exterior work is easy to judge
> the quality/difficulty.
I agree about the 15% being essentially the same. I have to say that it's
not easy to get useful references, especially when you are new to an area.
I'm happier getting good references from neighbors and seeing the work
myself on their house. When I've asked tradespeople for references, I've
often felt weird about it. You would think they could just pop off a number
of nearby houses that they'd worked on and give me some names and phone
numbers. That's not been the case very often in my experience. Sometimes
they only give me a name or two, and no addresses. Other times I've gotten
addresses that were on the other side of town, and I'm not willing to burn a
Saturday afternoon searching for them. Then, I have to call these strangers
and ask them what they thought of the company's work. That is a kind of
awkward conversation when it's out of the blue, and possibly the work was
done months ago. You get answering machines, and people aren't eager to call
you back. It's just kind of a pain. The other thing is, that for most
companies, the person doing the estimate is not the person doing the work.
So they might give me references for the company as a whole, but that might
not reflect the work of the person or crew who does the work on my house.
I'm not saying don't get references. I'm just saying, I've found them of
limited usefulness myself. I'd rather be a pest and ask all my new neighbors
who they use.
> #3. A "PO'ed" contractor does a crappy job...
Agreed. I'd hesitate trying to haggle a whole lot. They are getting paid for
their time, and if they do a good job, it's a service worth paying for, IMO.
Katie
renov8r
I am just being honest when I say that my estimates are fair. If
something goes real smooth I do write invoices for less. I think
it does "surprise" some people, but it is practice that I made a
decision about a long time ago. I did a job that I thought would
take me about 800 hrs, or average of two people for five weeks.
It took me three weeks. I could have pocketed ALOT of money if I
wrote the invoice for the invoice amount. Instead I figured
word would get around that I did a great job "ahead of schedule
and under budget". That one client told enough people that I was
busy for a solid two years. An estimate does not have to be "a
minimum".
As far as referals, I often take photos of new houses I build or
before/during/ after pictures of remodels. This helps people get
an idea of what it might be like to have me work on their home.
Often times they decide to move out when they see what a wreck
most "during" pictures look like. I always keep a list of address
of all projects I work on. I keep "thank you" notes and letters
too. I generally don't drag the letters around but I do have a
"scrap book" with all the stuff in it and if somebody is hemming
and hawing I often swing by to tell them "yeah I want to do this
work for you, and I want to make you as happy with the work I as
made these people and then I leave the book. It is called
"marketing" and guys who don't do it are scrambling for work
while I get jobs done. I also get MOST of my work from
neighbors/friends of people I worked for. I agree a "chatty
neighbor (or realtor) is great for business. TALK TO THE PEOPLE
YOU LIVE NEAR! The don't bite.Further, I do the estimates for 99%
of the jobs I take. I don't believe having a "sales guy" helps me
or my clients. I do not recommend hiring any "trades firm" that
uses a "sales guy". Many of these places are boderline scam
outfits, that have their priorites all messed up. Be very afraid
of "trades firm" with "slick" materials...
Finally if somebody asks me "have you done a job like this" I
assume this is "code" for "gimme a name I can call". In most
cases I then tell them who I am doing a project for currently or
one that was completed within the last 6 months. Often these are
"across town". This ain't Mayberry RFD. I tell them prospective
client "they(the prior client) will remember me, and as far as I
know they were satisified",as a means of reassurring the
prospective client that it is "safe" to call; this has never
really "backfired", but often peoples' memories of how long
things took differ from the facts. Alot of remodels go slow. It
is the nature of the work.
I don't "haggle" with my subcontracors. If somebody charges me
too much I let him know. I usually give a guy one chance to
double check his figures and then he gets scratched off "the
list". I don't haggle with my mechanic, my denstist, or the vet.
I haven't needed to see a doctor in ten+ years, and my checkups
are "free" (HMO).
Thanks!
Rich
> whole-house paint job? I've gotten several estimates, and I'd like to go
back
> to one or two of them who were higher than the rest, tell them about the
lower
> estimates, and see if they'll reduce the price.
When people do this to me I tell them to save some money
and go with the cheap guy.
> I'm sure I'll hear a lot about "you get what you pay for,"
A generally true statement, but I won't waste my time using it.
> and "why don't you
> just go with the guy who gave you the lower estimate,"
Hey that's a good one!
> and other life lessons,
> but this is a pretty straight forward job, and money in my pocket is
better
> than money in someone else's.
That's a good attitude. I'll bet you're looking for a guy
with that same attitude...ME first? Good luck getting
a good person.
> I'm looking for a balance between getting the
> contractor who'll do the best job, and paying as little as necessary. I'm
> talking about reducing the price from $2600 to $2200. I don't want to
insult
> anyone, but I also don't want to pay more than I have to.
Call the cheapest guy in the newspaper and get it done
for $1400. Don't forget to give him all the money down
first.
Rich
Doug Weiss
comparing, don't compare a wash/paint job with a full prep, caulk
windows, etc. paint job. One fair question is how much time are you
allowing for prep? That can pretty much sort out the wheat from the
chaff, in many cases.
I would never hire a painter (again) who sends in a crew that doesn't
work for them. Some painting contractors just hire painters by the
job....actually they let painters bid for the job. The painters then
do the minimum possible work...etc. No matter that the contractor had
a crew paint another house...the work is only as good as the crew that
are sent to your house.
I would ask any painting contractor...who will be doing the job...how
long have they worked for you....do they work for you..etc. You will
get the best job from a painter who does the work themselves. that's
worth 15-20% more, at a minimum. For me, it's a requirement.
Again..you pretty much get what you pay for....the low bid may well
not save you anything and cause much grief.
jjva...@aol.com (JJVandJMB) wrote:
>Is it common or acceptable to try and negotiate the price of an exterior
>whole-house paint job? I've gotten several estimates, and I'd like to go back
>to one or two of them who were higher than the rest, tell them about the lower
>estimates, and see if they'll reduce the price.
>
>I'm sure I'll hear a lot about "you get what you pay for," and "why don't you
>just go with the guy who gave you the lower estimate," and other life lessons,
>but this is a pretty straight forward job, and money in my pocket is better
>than money in someone else's. I'm looking for a balance between getting the
>contractor who'll do the best job, and paying as little as necessary. I'm
>talking about reducing the price from $2600 to $2200. I don't want to insult
>anyone, but I also don't want to pay more than I have to.
>
>John
Doug Boulter
> fuckin losers are all the same..
Art,
Your posts no longer seem to have any value whatsoever, a sad slide
from years gone by. Would you please stop changing your e-mail
address to avoid our killfiles?
Doug Boulter
To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious spam traps from the address
tre...@sirius.com
>than money in someone else's. I'm looking for a balance between getting the
>contractor who'll do the best job, and paying as little as necessary. I'm
>talking about reducing the price from $2600 to $2200. I don't want to insult
>anyone, but I also don't want to pay more than I have to.
Unless you have a good reason to believe the bid is really, really a rip
off (in which case, why bother), don't ask about reducing the price.
Imagine if you were asked to work for 85% of what you normally make.
Sure, tell him you got lower bids, and ask him why his bid is higher. What
is it about his work that makes it worth more. If he gives you a good
reason, pay him what he's asking for, and buy him and his crew lunch once
or twice.
Dave Winslow
your house, I would appreciate the opportunity to bid again rather than
loose the job.
JJVandJMB <jjva...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000523095344...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
> Is it common or acceptable to try and negotiate the price of an exterior
> whole-house paint job? I've gotten several estimates, and I'd like to go
back
> to one or two of them who were higher than the rest, tell them about the
lower
> estimates, and see if they'll reduce the price.
>
> I'm sure I'll hear a lot about "you get what you pay for," and "why don't
you
> just go with the guy who gave you the lower estimate," and other life
lessons,
> but this is a pretty straight forward job, and money in my pocket is
better
> than money in someone else's. I'm looking for a balance between getting
the
> contractor who'll do the best job, and paying as little as necessary. I'm
> talking about reducing the price from $2600 to $2200. I don't want to
insult
> anyone, but I also don't want to pay more than I have to.
>
> John
JJVandJMB
>I would guess it is common, and why not give it a shot? If I were bidding on
>your house, I would appreciate the opportunity to bid again rather than
>loose the job.
Exactly what I thought most level-headed contractors would think, that they'd
rather be given another opportunity instead of just being dumped. All they have
to say is "no" if they can't do it...no big deal.
It sounds like some of the guys who got all freaky in this thread have been
burned and lost jobs because their prices are inflated. Either that or they're
pissed off because they've always been too timid to try and get the best price
for themselves, and now they've found their aggression sitting behind a
computer screen.
By the way, for those of you who've whined and cryed about the notion of
someone trying to get the best price, I have this to say: if you truly believe
that an estimate is always the "minimum" that a job can be done for, and not
the "maximum" that a contractor thinks he can charge and still get the job,
then you're pretty naive and you deserve to pay top dollar.
Sure, there are many contractors who really give their rock-bottom price right
off the bat, but how is someone supposed to know who those contractors are
unless they ask if they can lower the price? Unlike the 2 or 3 grouches here, I
don't live in a world where I know all the local contractors. They ALL say that
they're going to do the best job, so which one do I go with? References aren't
worth much, since they could be sending me to their in-laws' house, and I don't
know them well enough to be familiar with their reputations. The only thing
that is really quantifiable and reliable, that distinguishes one painter that
I've never heard of from another is the price, since they all claim to do the
best work, and they all have stellar references.
By the way, I'm only comparing guys who've said they'll power wash, scrape,
sand, caulk, nail down shingles, oil prime, and 2 top-coats Benjamin Moore
acrylic latex, so I'm not comparing apples and oranges. I've also disregarded
the guys who've seemed unfriendly or unknowledgeable.
Sorry this post is so long, but I just can't believe that some people can get
so bent out of shape by the mere thought of someone going back to a contractor
to see if a better price is available. When you walk into a store that has a
sign that reads "will match (or beat) any competitor's price," do you go and
curse out the store manager? Of course not, because it's absurd, and you'd have
to do it face-to-face.
Eric Gunnerson
"JJVandJMB" <jjva...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000523095344...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
> Is it common or acceptable to try and negotiate the price of an exterior
> whole-house paint job? I've gotten several estimates, and I'd like to go
back
> to one or two of them who were higher than the rest, tell them about the
lower
> estimates, and see if they'll reduce the price.
>
> I'm sure I'll hear a lot about "you get what you pay for," and "why don't
you
> just go with the guy who gave you the lower estimate," and other life
lessons,
> but this is a pretty straight forward job, and money in my pocket is
better
> than money in someone else's. I'm looking for a balance between getting
the
> contractor who'll do the best job, and paying as little as necessary. I'm
> talking about reducing the price from $2600 to $2200. I don't want to
insult
> anyone, but I also don't want to pay more than I have to.
I think doing this is an excellent way of separating the good contractors
from the bad. The good contactors will have given you an honest bid that
makes it worth their while to do a quality job. They will tell you that they
aren't interested in "negotiating".
The bad contractors - assuming they're at the high end of the price scale -
will be more than happy to compromise the quality of the work to save you
some money.
Sphyrnatude
It would depend onhow you had the contractorsa bid in the first place. When I'm
putting work out to bid (pretty often with a 100 year old house), I always tell
the contractor that I'm only doing one round of bids. That way, if one comes
back after I've decided who to use, I can tell him that I don't accept second
bids.
I also tell the contractors that I'm not necesarily looking for the lowest
bidder - in my experience, the lowest bidder usually ends up costing a lot more
than the high bid.... On the rare occasion that I *do* write a lowest bidder
proposal, I make the statement of work *very* detailed - usually many pages
long, specifying evrything from material, to types of adhesives, to tolerances
for joints, etc.... That way, I know that the finished product will be up to my
standards. Of course, this scares off alot of contractors....
If I'm going to do multiple rounds of bids, I typically only take a second
round, and it almmost always only invoves 2-3 contractors. Usuallu what happens
in this case, is I've gotten bids from contractors that I've used before, and
something seems odd about the bid. Way too high or low, or something else. In
this case, I'd call the 2-3 finalists, and explain the situation to them (I've
narrowed it down to 2 or 3 contractors. Your bid was higher/lower than the
other ones, and I just wanted to give you a chance to review it in case I
misommunicated one of the specs.)
I've found that most contractors (especially contractors that you've worked
with before) appreciate the opprtunity at a second chance, and they're
realistic about the fact that as a homeowner, you don't want to spend more than
you have to. I've *never* had a contractor use the "get what you pay for" line.
If one did, I'd probably cross them off nmy list, just on proinciple....
--JD
Lyle B. Harwood
<eri...@nospam.microsoft.nospam.com> wrote:
>€ I think doing this is an excellent way of separating the good contractors
>€ from the bad. The good contactors will have given you an honest bid that
>€ makes it worth their while to do a quality job. They will tell you that they
>€ aren't interested in "negotiating".
>€
>€ The bad contractors - assuming they're at the high end of the price scale -
>€ will be more than happy to compromise the quality of the work to save you
>€ some money.
Well said, Eric!
--
Lyle B. Harwood, President
Phoenix Homes, Inc.
http://www.phoenixhomesinc.com
(206) 523-9500
Rich
First you came in here asking a bunch of questions
as if you didn't know, NOW you post and give
a lengthy lecture on the subject as if you're an
expert and we need your newbie stupid advice.
Has it occured to you that those of us who have
done a few thousand estimates might know more
than you, and have learned to laugh at your
"negotiating" techniques when dumb customers
try them on us?
Here's why we make fun of you....
It's because we know that you're going to drive
away the good contractors and end up with some
schmuck who will tell you exactly what you want
to hear. He's going to do a crappy job and
you're going to whine about it.
That's why we're laughing at you as you give
us all this "wisdom" of yours.
Rich
JJVandJMB <jjva...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000524120024...@ng-df1.aol.com...