Who actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?

[Alex Gunderson]

I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
Any advice?

1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.

Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
B. Company 2 still owns that tank
C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Have you ever been in this situation?
What advice do you have for me?

TIA

[bob haller]

The tank may need perodic inspection in order to permit filling. So you mght need to add that to your question.

I do know the 20 pound propane tanks need a pressure test every so many years..

the tank is placed in a container covered with water. its then pressured to capacity.
if the container holding the tank has water spill out the tank is expanding too much and has failed inspection. at least this is my understanding of what was explained to me many years ago.....

of course the tank exploding etc is also a failure...

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
<Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:

>I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
>Any advice?
>
>1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
>2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
>3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
>4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
>5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.
>
>Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?
>
>I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
>a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

Not likely. The person selling it didn't have the right to sell what
wasn't his. You're in possession of stolen property. ;-)

>b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

Doesn't matter.

>c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

YO isn't worth much.

>I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
>A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
>B. Company 2 still owns that tank
>C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.

Yes.

>Have you ever been in this situation?
>What advice do you have for me?

Shut up. Maybe they'll never figure it out.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 7:56:06 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
>
> Any advice?
>
>
>
> 1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
>
> 2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
>
> 3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
>
> 4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank

How could he know for sure, unless he works for company #2?
It's possible company #2's name is on it, but maybe the
previous owner bought and paid for it. Did the sales contract
say anything, one way or the other? If I was selling a house
with a propane tank, I'd be sure to spell out if it's included
or not, and if not, who actually owns it.

>
> 5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.
>
>
>
> Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?
>

>
> I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
>
> a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm pretty sure you can't
sell what you don't own. Meaning if the tank was in fact
the property of a company and the previous owner did not
own it, then by selling the house they can't transfer ownership
to you just because they sold the house.

>
> b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

But the previous owner probably did, if it in fact
really is their tank. So far, all you have is a workman
saying it belonged to company #2. Isn't there any
identification on it? When you chose company #1 to be
your gas provider, I would think they would ask if you
have a tank, need a tank, etc. And if you have a tank,
I would think they would come out and inspect it before
delivering gas to make sure it's safe. You would think
during that process the issue of it being company #2's
tank would have come up, but I guess not.

>
> c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)
>

If it really is their tank, I doubt that is going to work.
Not if they have a signed contract with the previous owner
that lays out the terms of the lease and protects the
company's rights like they normally would.

>
> I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
>
> A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
>
> B. Company 2 still owns that tank
>
> C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.
>

That sounds perfectly reasonable and right to me.

>
> Have you ever been in this situation?
>
> What advice do you have for me?
>
>
>
> TIA

Why are you even worried about it? Unless someone is
now demanding you pay for the tank, what's the problem?

Another possible angle, if you can still contact the seller,
ask them who's tank it is. They may have bought it, or had it
on lease, then bought it, etc. And again, anything in the
contract about the tank? If it says the tank is included and
someone shows up saying it's their tank and can prove it, then
you'd have a claim against the seller. But if the contract is
silent on the issue, I doubt you have a case.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:10:08 -0700, bob haller wrote:

> The tank may need perodic inspection in order to permit filling. So you
> mght need to add that to your question.

Well, these 1,000 gallon tanks are above ground, and they're built
like cement outhouses, so the last thing on my mind is that the tank
is gonna explode.

Besides, the tank has a date stamp of 1999 so it is in fine shape.

> I do know the 20 pound propane tanks need a pressure test every so many
> years..

The company that fills the tank inspected it before entering into
the agreement with me.

> the tank is placed in a container covered with water. its then pressured
> to capacity.

There is no way you're going to take a one thousand gallon tank and
place it in a bucket of water. The thing is 15 feet long (or so).

> of course the tank exploding etc is also a failure...

We have a better chance of winning the lottery than the tank suddenly
deciding to explode. So I'm not the least bit worried about safety.

I'm worried about ownership.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 20:23:03 -0400, krw wrote:

> You're in possession of stolen property.

I understand your point.
But, what about "abandoned" property?

>>b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
> Doesn't matter.

I guess that's because you're saying company 2 still
owns the tank so it doesn't matter that they left it
on my property, connected to the house, for the past
few years?

> Maybe they'll never figure it out.

Or, maybe they'll figure it's not worth losing a customer
over a $1000 tank?

[Alex Gunderson]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:25:52 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> How could he know for sure, unless he works for company #2?

I think they go by serial number but I'm not sure.

> It's possible company #2's name is on it, but maybe the previous owner
> bought and paid for it.

Actually, there is no name on the tank other than the manufacturer
on the nameplate and a serial number and the poundage figures, and things
like that.

> Did the sales contract say anything, one way or the other?

Nothing about the tank. It said the property was "as is".

> If I was selling a house with a propane tank, I'd be sure to
> spell out if it's included or not, and if not, who actually owns it.

I understand. When I first entered into the agreement with company 1
for the propane delivery, they asked for a bill of sale. I didn't have
one so they accepted an affidavit that I wrote saying I owned it.

I never thought anything of it at the time, but that's all I really
have that "specifically" mentions the tank ownership.

> I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm pretty sure you can't sell what you don't
> own. Meaning if the tank was in fact the property of a company and the
> previous owner did not own it, then by selling the house they can't
> transfer ownership to you just because they sold the house.

OK. This makes sense.
But, did company 2 "abandon" the tank?
Sort of like a ship at sea is abandoned and then anyone can have it?

> Isn't there any identification on it?

Yes. There is a nameplate with a serial number, a date of manufacturer,
a company of manufacturer, the weight, and a bunch of other poundage figures.

> I would think they would come out and inspect it before delivering gas to
> make sure it's safe.

They did that years ago. I don't think the issue is safety.
The tank is in great shape. It will outlast the United States, let alone
the house, and me.

> You would think during that process the issue of it
> being company #2's tank would have come up, but I guess not.

I don't see how, from just the serial number, company 1 would know
anything about company 2. All they knew (and all I knew) at the time
was that it certainly wasn't company 1's tank.

So they've been filling it for years.

> Not if they have a signed contract with the previous owner that lays out
> the terms of the lease and protects the company's rights like they
> normally would.

Well, if they do have a signed lease, that would be interesting.
I don't know that this exists. I never once spoke to the previous owner.
I never even met them. They essentially walked away from the property.

> Why are you even worried about it?

Because I want to line up my ducks.
Just in case they come to me, I don't want to say something stupid.
I just want to know where I stand, legally.
I do realize this is a home-repair group - but - I was hoping someone
would have experience with this, first hand - and then could provide
advice.

I do appreciate the help as I know you don't have to advise me.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmm,
Can't you contact previous owner? Wonder why you did not check about the
ownership(tank was rented, leased or what?) when you purchased the
house? The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this
case, IMHO.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
<Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:

You can be pretty sure that you don't own it. From the scenario you
describe, probably No 1 owns it since they bought #2.

Your opinion does not matter. You cannot prove it was abandoned and
unless you have a bill of sale that the previous owner of the house
owned the tank, you did not buy it. On top of all that, propane
companies are notoriously sleazy when it comes to filling tanks if it
is not their tank. Some state laws may possibly come into play too,
at least they do here in CT. If a propane company does not own the
tank they are not allowed to fill it.

[recycl...@gmail.com]

Yes I understand that the chances are one in a million but the question is:
If the tank blew-up would you sue company 1?

[dpb]

On 9/26/2013 8:49 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 17:25:52 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

...

> I understand. When I first entered into the agreement with company 1
> for the propane delivery, they asked for a bill of sale. I didn't have
> one so they accepted an affidavit that I wrote saying I owned it.
>
> I never thought anything of it at the time, but that's all I really
> have that "specifically" mentions the tank ownership.
>

...

> So they've been filling it for years.
>

...

> I just want to know where I stand, legally.
> I do realize this is a home-repair group - but - I was hoping someone
> would have experience with this, first hand - and then could provide
> advice.
>
> I do appreciate the help as I know you don't have to advise me.

The answer is there's no way for anyone here to know -- we're not in
possession of facts not available (sorta' goes w/o saying but in law
everything 'pends on the specifics).

In all likelihood the case is as outlined previously presuming that the
tank doesn't go back beyond the even the other company you do know of.

I don't think you can determine any real definitive answer to the
question w/o further data either confirming as you say from a S/N
whether the tank did come from one or the other companies in question if
they have such records and can therefrom produce previous history.

Clearly you own the property in question; whether the tank was the
previous occupant's to transfer is in doubt apparently so there is no
way to rely on that as has been noted previously as well.

All in all, unless a phone call to the alternate company can shed light
on whether it was there I suspect the cost involved in establishing the
actual pedigree would probably exceed the value of the tank.

If it hasn't been an issue so far, I'd suspect it's unlikely to become
one in the future.

--

[Ashton Crusher]

If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as
soon as the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going
to cost them some bucks.

[noname]

On 09/26/2013 07:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> Have you ever been in this situation?
> What advice do you have for me?

If the tank blows up and kills the neighbor's kid, will you still be
claiming ownership of the tank? I doubt it.

Tell the owner of the tank to come and get their tank.
Buy a new tank from a different propane supplier.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
> The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this case,

There are no lawyers involved when you buy a house in California.
When you buy as is, you don't even bother with a home inspection out here.

It's not the real estate agent's responsibility.
And, the buyer buys title insurance for this purpose.

Come to think of it. I wonder if my title insurance covers this?

[dadiOH]

"Alex Gunderson" <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l22him$8av$1...@solani.org

> I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here
> had this happen.
> Any advice?
>
> 1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a
> 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
> 2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel
> in 2010.
> 3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's
> not their tank
> 4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a
> new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
> 5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.
>
> Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?

Around here - central Florida - such tanks are generally owned by the
company providing the gas; they may or may not charge an annual fee for its
use. However, if one changes gas provider, the previous company has 30 days
to come get their tank; if they don't then it is bye-bye tank for them.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[Alex Gunderson]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as soon as
> the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going to cost them
> some bucks.

It's funny you say that because my wife suggested we charge them rent!

The problem, of course, is that I need to have them deliver the propane.

I haven't done the research lately, but they were the cheapest of the
four or five companies that I can buy propane from out here.

And, as they buy each other up, their numbers are dwindling.

I think they'll pick up the tank for free though - but then I'm left
with buying a brand new tank.

Luckily, they're not too expensive, about a dollar a gallon, so, it would
cost about a thousand gallons. I will have to put in a concrete reinforced
pad and earthquake straps and I'll need to trench it since I'd move it
elsewhere - so I've been looking up all that separately.

EDIT: Plus it looks like I need a set of high pressure and low pressure
regulators. One each at the tank, and one at the house.

[bob haller]

the OP will find a must inspec date stamped into the tank, after that no propane supplier will legally be able to fill it....

I dont know how they inspect such large tanks, it might be like high pressure gas lines are inspected at weld joints. they are X ray.......

but the method doesnt matter.

try calling a totally different gas supplier perhaps at the other end of your state to get answers....

and be sure to ask about large propane tank inspections

[bob haller]

http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPgasConcerns/ConsumerConcernsAndFAQs.htm#Delivery5

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 00:24:08 -0500, dpb wrote:

> Clearly you own the property in question; whether the tank was the
> previous occupant's to transfer is in doubt

After googling and googling and googling, I've come to the
belated realization that this is a relatively common situation.

I couldn't find any California statutes, so all I have is anecdotal
forum and usenet situations, all of which have their myriad details,
but it seems like the tank belongs to whomever can prove they own it.

I went back to my title papers, and there is just no mention of the
tank. Since the serial number is presumably unique, I am slowly
realizing it's probably their tank, and not mine, as I have thought
all this time.

I will call the title insurance company today, to see if they'll
compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since it's not actually
mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt it's something they deal with.

So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
myself.

It looks like I'll need the following (based on new regulations
of distance from the house and earthquake resistance which had
grandfathered the original tank but don't apply to new):
* new 1,000 gallon propane tank *
* reinforced concrete pad with tie-down eyehooks or lag bolts *
* trench must be 12" deep minimum & 18" if driven over *
* underground yellow flexible conduit (25' minimum distance) *
* two galvanized steel risers at the tank *
* high pressure regulator at the tank for the house *
* low pressure regulator at the tank for the pool & BBQ *
* low pressure regulator at the house *

[Alex Gunderson]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:35:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Your opinion does not matter...
> unless you have a bill of sale ... you did not buy it.

Belatedly, I'm coming to that very same realization.

In fact, it seems that the current company might even be
able to charge me back rent for the tank.

The rent is about $15/month, so that would amount to hundreds
of dollars (for a tank that's only worth about $1 per gallon).

> On top of all that, propane companies are notoriously sleazy
> when it comes to filling tanks if it is not their tank.

All the companies out here in California will fill only two
types of tanks:

1. Theirs
2. Yours

So, I called the propane company, anonymously, and asked
how much it would cost to have a new tank put in that I pay for.

If I buy the tank from them for roughly $1/gallon of capacity,
they will deliver it and strap it down and put in the three
regulators.

It's my responsibility to put in the reinforced concrete pad,
tie-down attachment points, 12" trench, yellow conduit, & two
stainless steel risers.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:11:02 -0700, recyclebinned wrote:

> Yes I understand that the chances are one in a million
> but the question is:
> If the tank blew-up would you sue company 1?

I've never sued anyone in my life, and I'm over 60, so, probably
not. Unless someone was hurt badly, and then I'd probably want
their medical costs covered.

Also, I must repeat, the chance of the tank blowing up is
so low that it's more likely that the chimney will blow over
in a strong wind - so I must deal with more pragmatic matters.

The most pragmatic seems to be for me to buy a new tank (if
they won't sell the old one to me for a good price).

The key problem with a new tank is that the old grandfathered
rules no longer apply - so - I am scoping out the additional
concrete pad, tie-down points, trench, conduit, risers, & regulators.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 04:48:23 -0400, noname wrote:

> Tell the owner of the tank to come and get their tank.
> Buy a new tank from a different propane supplier.

That's exactly what I'm leaning toward.

To that end, I had a long talk with the propane
company sales & technical support.

This is preliminary, but this is what I'm assessing:

1. Propane company will deliver a new empty tank
2. Tank must (now) be 25' from all structures
3. Trench needs to be 12" deep (if not driven over)
4. Tank must have a reinforced concrete pad
5. Pad must have tie-down eyebolts or lag bolts
6. Conduit must have metal wire running alongside
7. Both risers must be plastic or steel
8. Propane company will install & own the 3 regulators
9. Propane company will deliver tank (but I can own it)
10. Propane company will install & own tie-down straps
11. Propane company will connect, own, & inspect connections
12. Propane company will deliver fuel

[CRNG]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:16:37 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
<Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in <l23pel$a9k$1...@solani.org> Re Re: Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

>On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 19:58:37 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
>> The seller, buyer, real estate lawyer were not diligent in this case,
>
>There are no lawyers involved when you buy a house in California.
>When you buy as is, you don't even bother with a home inspection out here.

I used to have a R.E. license in Calif, and from what you have
written, here is my take on the situation.

a) If the previous property owner owned the tank, then you now own
the tank, because it is part of the real estate, being an attached
appurtenance to the house.

b) If the previous owner did not own the tank, (e.g. it was owned by
the gas company-A ) then the gas company owns it.

c) When gas company-A was bought by gas company-B, then company-B
became the new owner of the tank, assuming company-B bought all the
assets of company-A (and not just it's name).

>It's not the real estate agent's responsibility.
>And, the buyer buys title insurance for this purpose.
>
>Come to think of it. I wonder if my title insurance covers this?

I doubt it, but it's worth a try.

Let us know how it turns out.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net>
wrote:

>
>If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as
>soon as the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going
>to cost them some bucks.

Wow, that's funny. I can hear them laughing all the way over here.
They will counter with a tank rental bill, of course.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:37:07 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

> Around here - central Florida - such tanks are generally owned by the
> company providing the gas; they may or may not charge an annual fee for
> its use.

Out here, in California, all the propane companies will deliver a
tank for free and let you rent it from them for a monthly fee.

However, the propane company I use will fill only two types of tanks:
1. Their tank
2. Your tank

They told me they own the connections from the regulators to the tank,
including the regulators themselves. I can own everything else,
on both sides of those connections.

So, I'm scoping this out as we speak.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 04:48:23 -0400, noname <non...@nodomain.com>
wrote:

If they even will sell you one. Many will not so they have you
dependent on them for fuel. You will have to find one and have it
installed yourself in some areas. As mentioned before, propane
dealers can make used car salesmen and lawyers look good.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:37:07 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

> if one changes gas provider, the previous company has

> 30 days to come get their tank; if they don't, then it

> is bye-bye tank for them.

Aha! That's the abandonment clause.

That's the one thing I'm unsure of, out here, for California.

I found THIS legal site, but it doesn't seem to cover that topic.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=puc&group=04001-05000&file=4451-4465

[Stormin Mormon]

If the tank has a company logo on it "BURNWELL
GAS" for example, it's probably owned by them.
If it's just white, it may have been purchased
outright by the HO, or maybe no one remembers.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

On 9/26/2013 7:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
> Any advice?
>
> 1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
> 2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
> 3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
> 4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
> 5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.
>
> Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?
>

> I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
> a. I bought the house and everything attached to it

> b. I never signed an agreement with company 2

> c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)
>
> I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
> A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
> B. Company 2 still owns that tank
> C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.
>

> Have you ever been in this situation?
> What advice do you have for me?
>

> TIA
>

[Stormin Mormon]

Does he have to shoot the tank, and then
shovel some dirt on the tank?

I've heard that in NYS, if the tank has a
company logo, that other companies will
refuse to fill it.

I advise you to very gently sand off any
rust. Prime with grey primer, then paint
the tank with white enamel paint, and
don't say anything to anyone about it,
like K says.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

On 9/26/2013 8:23 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
>> Have you ever been in this situation?
>> What advice do you have for me?
>

> Shut up. Maybe they'll never figure it out.
>

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:01:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
<Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:


>
>I will call the title insurance company today, to see if they'll
>compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since it's not actually
>mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt it's something they deal with.
>
>So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
>myself.

What loss? I don't see you having a loss. You bought the house and
land it sits on. If the guy across the street happened to be parked
in your driveway on the day you closed, would you get to keep his car?
The tank, if owned by the propane company, happens to be on the land
you don't get ownership. This is something that should have been
resolved to your satisfaction before closing.

I don't see the title company getting involved. Would they help you
if the previous owner left the refrigerator No, that is not covered
under title insurance. It only covers real property against claims,
liens, and that type of thing.

[Stormin Mormon]

I might have missed it. Is there some reason you
don't just keep hiring the existing company to
fill your propane? What's the big ownership
question? Are they far too expensive?

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 04:55:06 -0700, bob haller wrote:

> the OP will find a must inspec date stamped into the tank,
> after that no propane supplier will legally be able to fill it....

Large tanks will outlast all of us, and then some; so I
seriously doubt there is an "expiration date" on them.

> I dont know how they inspect such large tanks

When I first called the propane company years ago, they
said I had to pay for an inspection before they would fill it
(since I told them it was my tank).

I wasn't home at the time the inspector did his work, so I
don't know what he did, but, he reconnected the tank and
shut off and tagged the kitchen grill because it was missing
an element (which I subsequently replaced).

I suspect (but need to confirm) that these large tanks won't
be filled if they don't meet regulations, which the propane
company has under control.

So I suspect inspection isn't a problem for the homewowner
for these large aboveground tanks.

[Stormin Mormon]

Are you unhappy with the present company?
Why discuss all the work to change tanks,
if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:01:02 -0700, bob haller wrote:

> http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPgasConcerns/ConsumerConcernsAndFAQs.htm#Delivery5

Nice find!
That North Carolina web site says what I believe California does also:

Q: Why won’t another propane company fill the tank at my house?
A: (North Carolina) state law prohibits one company from filling a tank
belonging to another company. You may shop around for the best price
(of propane) if you own the tank yourself, and that is the return
you get for your investment of buying a tank.

It seems to be the same out here.

The propane company will gladly fill their tank or my tank, but not someone
elses' tank.

[tra...@optonline.net]

+1

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:35:42 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson

>
> <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
> >I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
>
> >Any advice?
>
> >
>
> >1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
>
> >2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
>
> >3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
>
> >4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
>
> >5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.
>
> >
>
> >Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?
>
> >
>
> >I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
>
> >a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
>
> >b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
>
> >c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)
>
> >
>
> >I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
>
> >A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
>
> >B. Company 2 still owns that tank
>
> >C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.
>
> >
>

> >Have you ever been in this situation?
>
> >What advice do you have for me?
>
> >
>

> >TIA
>
>
>
> You can be pretty sure that you don't own it. From the scenario you
>
> describe, probably No 1 owns it since they bought #2.
>
>
>
> Your opinion does not matter. You cannot prove it was abandoned

I doubt an abandonment claim would work too, but without knowing
the state laws on the subject, who knows. If it meets the terms
of the law, I don't think it would be hard to prove. The fact
that it's been sitting there, out in the open for X years and
the company who owns it has done nothing, is obvious. But the
specifics of the law are what will count.






and
>
> unless you have a bill of sale that the previous owner of the house
>
> owned the tank, you did not buy it.

That's not true either. If the former owner owned the tank,
then he owns it now, whether he has a bill of sale or not.
It would be easier to prove that he owns it with such a
document, but the lack thereof doesn't change who does or
doesn't own it.

On top of all that, propane
>
> companies are notoriously sleazy when it comes to filling tanks if it
>

> is not their tank. Some state laws may possibly come into play too,
>
> at least they do here in CT. If a propane company does not own the
>
> tank they are not allowed to fill it.

Apparently they questioned him as to who owned the tank and
he filled out an affidavit stating that he owned it.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:01:02 -0700, bob haller wrote:

> http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPgasConcerns/ConsumerConcernsAndFAQs.htm#Delivery5

Of great interest was the NEXT question in the list!

Q: When I buy a house, does the propane tank become mine?
A: In North Carolina, when a propane company sets a tank,
they keep ownership of it.

Then they go on to clarify:
"This is especially true for above ground tanks.
Buried tanks become the property of the homeowner
more often, but not always."

Apparently I might be able to check with the county that they filed
the proper forms (if California law is similar to North Carolina law).

"If the propane company wants to keep the tank, they have that right.
If they file a UCC-1 form with the county for a tank on the property,
then they have clear documentation that they intend to keep ownership
of that tank, even if the house sells and a disclosure statement does
not point out that the tank is not included in that sale."

And, maybe even if they filed, it, it might expire after a few years:
"The UCC-1 expires after a specified time period and must be renewed
to remain in effect."

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:01:02 -0700, bob haller wrote:

> http://www.ncagr.gov/standard/LP/LPgasConcerns/ConsumerConcernsAndFAQs.htm#Delivery5

This section was particularly useful:
"If the buyer makes it clear that they have made the effort to confirm
the status of fixtures, and if the propane tank and its contents were
not excluded, then they may have a legitimate claim of ownership should
the question come up."

I wonder if my "as is" discloser is enough on due diligence?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Friday, September 27, 2013 8:41:20 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Are you unhappy with the present company?
>
> Why discuss all the work to change tanks,
>
> if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?
>
>

Stormin, that's what inquiring minds want to know.....
I'm confused here too. I asked why he was so concerned,
what the current issue was and he said:

"Because I want to line up my ducks.
Just in case they come to me, I don't want to say something stupid.
I just want to know where I stand, legally. "


Then later he laid out his intention to buy a new tank, pour a
new pad, etc and put it in. If it were me, I'd just continue
to use the existing tank. And if I could find the previous
owner, I'd contact them and ask who owned the tank.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmm,
CA being earthquake prone place, reg. could be different regarding
stationary tanks. Anyway up here in Alberta I have a little cabin way
out in the wilderness but I have NG hook up. Gas company ran line to
this neck of wood in anticipation of people building cabins ahead of
time. We have power, NG, only water is depend on drilled well.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:20:42 -0500, CRNG wrote:

> b) If the previous owner did not own the tank, (e.g. it was owned by the
> gas company-A ) then the gas company owns it.
>
> c) When gas company-A was bought by gas company-B, then company-B became
> the new owner of the tank, assuming company-B bought all the assets of
> company-A (and not just it's name).

From what I've read, the tank was probably *not* bought by the PO.

Of course, I'll also ask for written proof that my current gas supplier
owns the tank; but I assume they would have that so I would simply expect
to doublecheck the serial number, just in case the tank had been replaced
unbeknownst to me and to the propane company.

In North Carolina, we now know that ownership rights to the above-ground
tanks need to be established at the county level, by the propane company
filing and renewing a form certifying their ownership.

So, I will also check with my California county today, to see if a similar
provision exists for my state.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:22:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Wow, that's funny. I can hear them laughing all the way over here.
> They will counter with a tank rental bill, of course.

Just to be clear, I have no intention of asking *them* for rental
and, I certainly hope they have just as little intention of asking
*me* for the back rent.

In my case, back rent would likely exceed the cost of the tank,
so, I would just tell them to take their tank back.

Then I'd put in a new tank, but, at least I'd have clear and
free title to that new tank.

[Kurt Ullman]

In article <l23s22$dgb$2...@solani.org>,

Alex Gunderson <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:

>
> So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
> myself.

Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway. I don't
see any reason to spend the money to bring the new one up to code under
the circumstances and I certainly don't see any need to take ownership
of the tank (with attendant small but still not trivial legal risks that
attach).

>
> It looks like I'll need the following (based on new regulations
> of distance from the house and earthquake resistance which had
> grandfathered the original tank but don't apply to new):
> * new 1,000 gallon propane tank *
> * reinforced concrete pad with tie-down eyehooks or lag bolts *
> * trench must be 12" deep minimum & 18" if driven over *
> * underground yellow flexible conduit (25' minimum distance) *
> * two galvanized steel risers at the tank *
> * high pressure regulator at the tank for the house *
> * low pressure regulator at the tank for the pool & BBQ *
> * low pressure regulator at the house *

--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the bastards."-- Claire Wolfe

[tra...@optonline.net]

The key question here is a claim against who? They are talking
about the seller not stating who owns the tank, disclosing that it
is not theirs, etc at the time of sale. In that case, what they
are saying is that you may have a claim against the SELLER. It kind
of makes sense. The tank was attached, and usually that which is
attached is included in the sale. On the other side, the argument
would be that it's common for tanks to be rented, not owned, and
you the buyer assumed it was owned, etc. This probably has come
up before and there would be court history on it. The other part
is that even if you have a claim, it's can you collect? Do you
even know where the seller is now?

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 9/26/2013 7:23 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
> <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
>> Any advice?
>>
>> 1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
>> 2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
>> 3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

Also consider that no "rental" is paid because you are buying gas from
them. I contracted with a propane company to place a tank on our
property solely for the purpose of providing LPG to heat the swimming
pool. No rental was ever charged... UNTIL... we severely cut back on
the use of the heater and were not constantly filling it. They then
instituted what they called a "drayage" charge, charging us $x.xx per month.

"Fired" that company and new one brought in a similar tank with no
drayage charge. Eventually got rid of pool and heater but next door
neighbor installed a pool and needed propane for it so they moved it
next door. He STILL has it and pays only for the gas he uses.

Why would you want to "own" it. If you own it, you're responsible for
maintenance. If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do? Plant
petunias in it after you cut it in half?

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:25:05 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> You will have to find one and have it installed yourself

That's exactly what I'm scoping out.

It looks like I may need to:
a. Buy the tank & have it delivered empty
b. Lay a reinforced concrete pad, with tie-down bolts
c. Trench 12" deep for a minimum of 25' from the house
d. Lay conduit & metal guide wire
e. Add risers for the high & low pressure regulator

The propane company apparently owns the equipment
from the riser to the tank (which includes the
regulators).

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Friday, September 27, 2013 9:13:49 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 9/26/2013 7:23 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:56:06 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
>
> > <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
>
> >> Any advice?
>
> >>
>
> >> 1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
>
> >> 2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
>
> >> 3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank
>
>
>
> Also consider that no "rental" is paid because you are buying gas from
>
> them.

But he wasn't buying gas from the company he now believes
owns the tank for years after he bought the house. He used
a different company.

I contracted with a propane company to place a tank on our
>
> property solely for the purpose of providing LPG to heat the swimming
>
> pool. No rental was ever charged... UNTIL... we severely cut back on
>
> the use of the heater and were not constantly filling it. They then
>
> instituted what they called a "drayage" charge, charging us $x.xx per month.
>
>

That makes sense.

>
> "Fired" that company and new one brought in a similar tank with no
>
> drayage charge. Eventually got rid of pool and heater but next door
>
> neighbor installed a pool and needed propane for it so they moved it
>
> next door. He STILL has it and pays only for the gas he uses.
>
>
>
> Why would you want to "own" it. If you own it, you're responsible for
>
> maintenance.

I guess because he says the current company would charge $15/mth
if he were renting it from them. He says a new tank costs $1000.

If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do? Plant
>
> petunias in it after you cut it in half?

If he's using it for heat and cooking and he knows he's in
an area where he's very unlikely to change fuels, then I
don't see stopping gas usage as being an issue.
How long these
tanks last and what you do with them when they have to
be disposed of, could be an issue. I would
suspect that the gas company has answers to all that.
I would not be surprised to find that if you call a gas
company and get one of their tanks, as either rental or
buying it, that they would take away the old tank, probably
for a charge. But saving $1000 every 6 years, I'd say
he's still going to come out way ahead.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:33:35 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> I've heard that in NYS, if the tank has a
> company logo, that other companies will
> refuse to fill it.

Here, in CA, they will only fill their tank or your
tank, but not someone else's tank.

There is no logo on this tank.

[Stormin Mormon]

Thanks, good attention to detail. Line up the
ducks, so he doesn't get quacked over the head
with some issue later? Then he might really
be ducked up, with a huge tank to duck around
with.

<ducks and runs>

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about "behold, I come quackly!" Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:34:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> I don't see the title company getting involved.

I don't disagree with you.

But it's worth the call to the title company.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:41:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> Are you unhappy with the present company?

Nope.

> Why discuss all the work to change tanks,
> if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?

Only for economy.

The propane company charges one rate for people who
rent the tank (in addition to the monthly rental fee).

But, they charge a lower rate for those who own
their tanks (with the benefit of no rental fee).

I'm assuming (rough calculations) that the tank will
pay for itself in a year or two given those dynamics
(at least that is what I had calculated years ago).

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:52:20 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Apparently they questioned him as to who owned the tank and he filled out
> an affidavit stating that he owned it.

Confirmed.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:52:20 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> I doubt an abandonment claim would work too, but without knowing the state
> laws on the subject, who knows. If it meets the terms of the law, I don't
> think it would be hard to prove. The fact that it's been sitting there,
> out in the open for X years and the company who owns it has done nothing,
> is obvious. But the specifics of the law are what will count.

Understood.
They could have come at any time to pick it up.
They didn't.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:39:40 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> I might have missed it. Is there some reason you
> don't just keep hiring the existing company to
> fill your propane? What's the big ownership
> question? Are they far too expensive?

Good question.
I'm actually happy with the existing company.

The only thing that 'may' change is they may charge
a rental fee (which, over time, would, at some point,
exceed the cost of the tank) and they may charge a
higher rate for the propane.

Plus, I can no longer shop around and go to someone
else for propane (who may have a lower cost).

Given that there are 1,000 gallons, even a minor
50 cent difference in price could make a large
difference (over time) in total ownership cost.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:30:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> If the tank has a company logo on it "BURNWELL
> GAS" for example, it's probably owned by them.
> If it's just white, it may have been purchased
> outright by the HO, or maybe no one remembers.

It's just painted a cream color. No log whatsoever.

The serial plate has a company of manufacture and
a date but no gas company listing.

I'm pretty sure (but not positive) now that the
propane company probably owns the tank, unless they
didn't fill out the requisite paperwork (but this all
would need to be confirmed).

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

> If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?

That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
option but propane.

I guess, if I stop using gas, my options are:
- For heating: Use a wood burner instead
- For hot water: Use electricity
- For the stove: Use electricity
- For the pool: Don't heat it
- For the BBQ: Use a portable propane tank
- For the dryer: Use electricity
- In which case, I'd add solar panels (for sure!)

But, at this point, I don't think it's reasonable to think I'll
invest in switching over all that equipment to alternative fuels.

[tra...@optonline.net]

But unless I've gotten it all wrong, you're not paying
anything to rent the tank now because no one is billing
you for it. So, why worry about it? You said the gas
company would charge $15/mth to rent you a tank and you
can buy one for $1000. So, why do anything now?

If someday they come to you and claim it's been their
tank for the last 7 years and you owe them money, that's
when I'd do something. And the something would be to
tell them you believed it was your tank, and it's
not your problem. If they persist,
offer the company some reasonable amount to settle it.
There is a statute of limitations on any claims for
money owed. Find out what it is. They can't go after
you for 15 years worth of bills. More likely, it's
about 3 years or 5 years. And then, who really owes the
money? You didn't sign a rental contract with them.
Presumably the previous owner did. It would seem to me
that their claim is against the previous owner, not you.
In other words, even if they say, pay up, once they
realize the screwed up situation, I'd bet you could
settle it for $500. Which is better? Maybe paying $500
someday, or paying $1000 for a tank, plus the cost of
laying a pad, securing it, etc maybe $1500 total today?

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 06:46:09 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> If he's using it for heat and cooking and he knows he's in an area where
> he's very unlikely to change fuels, then I don't see stopping gas usage as
> being an issue.

It's not. There's (almost) no chance (well, it's never zero) that they'll
run a pipe way out here for an alternative fuel.

Electricity, I guess, is the other option - but at the cost of electricity
in California being something like 50 cents a kwh (top tier), that's not
going to work out mathematically (without adding a $50K solar investment
to the mix anyway).

[tra...@optonline.net]

Then it would seem that when and if another supplier
offers a price that justifies switching, that would be
the time to incur all the trouble. But you told us the
current company was the lowest cost one, no? So, why
not just keep doing what you've been doing?

[chaniarts]

On 9/26/2013 4:56 PM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> I realize this is a legal question but has anyone here had this happen.
> Any advice?
>
> 1. Bought a house, as is, in 2010, which came with a 1,000 gallon propane tank attached.
> 2. Entered into agreement with fuel company "1" for fuel in 2010.
> 3. No tank rental is paid to fuel company 1 because it's not their tank

> 4. Recently a workman (inspecting the tank because of a new BBQ) mentioned that company 2 owns the tank
> 5. Company 2 was recently bought by company 1.
>
> Nothing more has happened, but, who owns that tank?
>
> I feel "I" own it by virtue of multiple circumstances (but I'm not a lawyer!):
> a. I bought the house and everything attached to it
> b. I never signed an agreement with company 2
> c. Company 2 abandoned that tank long ago (IMHO)

if you don't know c, then you can't assume that. they will probably
still own it, even if they collect no rent on it. they would/could have
sold it to the then-owner for nothing, but if you have no paperwork on
that, then it didn't occur.

> I suspect, if company 1 wants to assert ownership of that tank, they could say:
> A. Company 2 originally owned the tank
> B. Company 2 still owns that tank
> C. Therefore, company 1 (who owns company 2) owns that tank.
>

> Have you ever been in this situation?
> What advice do you have for me?
>

> TIA
>

[chaniarts]

On 9/27/2013 4:48 AM, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 22:37:58 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
>> If they decide it's their tank tell them fine, they can have it as soon as
>> the pay the storage fees. Even a nominal $10 a day is going to cost them
>> some bucks.
>
> It's funny you say that because my wife suggested we charge them rent!
>
> The problem, of course, is that I need to have them deliver the propane.
>
> I haven't done the research lately, but they were the cheapest of the
> four or five companies that I can buy propane from out here.
>
> And, as they buy each other up, their numbers are dwindling.
>
> I think they'll pick up the tank for free though - but then I'm left
> with buying a brand new tank.
>
> Luckily, they're not too expensive, about a dollar a gallon, so, it would
> cost about a thousand gallons. I will have to put in a concrete reinforced
> pad and earthquake straps and I'll need to trench it since I'd move it
> elsewhere - so I've been looking up all that separately.

look into burying it. i did that so i didn't have to look at it all the
time. cost a bit more though, and you have to have additional permits
and the right kind of ground to do so.

> EDIT: Plus it looks like I need a set of high pressure and low pressure
> regulators. One each at the tank, and one at the house.
>

[Kurt Ullman]

In article <l245ub$dgb$2...@solani.org>,

Alex Gunderson <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>
> > If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?
>
> That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
> option but propane.
>
> I guess, if I stop using gas, my options are:
> - For heating: Use a wood burner instead
> - For hot water: Use electricity
> - For the stove: Use electricity
> - For the pool: Don't heat it

Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the
few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most
alternatives is the pool heater.

[chaniarts]

that frequently happens in my area, and it's frequently over $1/gallon
difference. i generally call 4 when i get a tank fill, and can save
hundreds of dollars.

[chaniarts]

they didn't have to.

[chaniarts]

i think the OP wants it in a different place. the propane company won't
want to do that for free.

[chaniarts]

On 9/27/2013 8:06 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <l245ub$dgb$2...@solani.org>,
> Alex Gunderson <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>>
>>> If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?
>>
>> That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
>> option but propane.
>>
>> I guess, if I stop using gas, my options are:
>> - For heating: Use a wood burner instead
>> - For hot water: Use electricity
>> - For the stove: Use electricity
>> - For the pool: Don't heat it
> Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the
> few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most
> alternatives is the pool heater.
>

you probably mean solar hot water, not solar electric. you'd need a
massive array to do solar electric for an electric pool heater.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Friday, September 27, 2013 11:06:14 AM UTC-4, Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article <l245ub$dgb$2...@solani.org>,
>
> Alex Gunderson <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:13:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > If you stop using the gas, what are you going to do?
>
> >
>
> > That's an interesting question, as I hadn't considered any other
>
> > option but propane.
>
> >
>
> > I guess, if I stop using gas, my options are:
>
> > - For heating: Use a wood burner instead
>
> > - For hot water: Use electricity
>
> > - For the stove: Use electricity
>
> > - For the pool: Don't heat it
>
> Don't know about the tree situation at your place, but one of the
>
> few places I have seen where solar seems to work better than most
>
> alternatives is the pool heater.
>
> --

Good grief, yes! Solar is far more cost effective than
any pool heating alternative. In CA you would think solar would be
the way to go for a pool heater. I'm actually surprised
I don't see them here in NJ. The main downside is that it
takes a fairly large array, ballpark about the size of the
pool surface area. So, you either need roof area for that,
are OK with how it looks, or need to ground mount it. But
compared to say nat gas, it's just about free to run. And
those gas heaters are 200 - 400K btus, a real disaster.

[CRNG]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:33:41 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
<Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in <l24505$dgb$1...@solani.org> Re Re: Who
actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

>On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:41:20 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
>> Are you unhappy with the present company?
>Nope.
>
>> Why discuss all the work to change tanks,
>> if the existing tank is in acceptable shape?
>
>Only for economy.
>
>The propane company charges one rate for people who
>rent the tank (in addition to the monthly rental fee).
>
>But, they charge a lower rate for those who own
>their tanks (with the benefit of no rental fee).

Correct. You would do well to put in your own tank.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:03:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman <kurtu...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>In article <l23s22$dgb$2...@solani.org>,
> Alex Gunderson <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and putting it in
>> myself.
>
> Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
>they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway. I don't
>see any reason to spend the money to bring the new one up to code under
>the circumstances and I certainly don't see any need to take ownership
>of the tank (with attendant small but still not trivial legal risks that
>attach).
>
>
>>
>> It looks like I'll need the following (based on new regulations
>> of distance from the house and earthquake resistance which had
>> grandfathered the original tank but don't apply to new):
>> * new 1,000 gallon propane tank *
>> * reinforced concrete pad with tie-down eyehooks or lag bolts *
>> * trench must be 12" deep minimum & 18" if driven over *
>> * underground yellow flexible conduit (25' minimum distance) *
>> * two galvanized steel risers at the tank *
>> * high pressure regulator at the tank for the house *
>> * low pressure regulator at the tank for the pool & BBQ *
>> * low pressure regulator at the house *
I wouldn't WANT to own a 1000 gallon fuel tank - propane, gasoline,
or deisel, strictly from the liability perspective. They own it, they
are responsible for it, and if anything goes wrong THEY replace it.

It's not like a water heater, or furnace that you rent and pay for 5
times over in it's normal lifespan - I would always own my furnace,
water heater, and water softener (as well as my car)

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:03:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

> Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
> they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway.

I'm leaning toward the fact that whomever can prove it's theirs
probably owns it, and, I can't prove it's mine.

I did call the propane company and they told me that they changed
their rules, which makes a difference.

They now say they charge the same amount per gallon whether or
not the owner owns the tank, so that knocks out one variable.

They also said they lowered the rental fees, which are $95/year
for 500 gallon tanks and $120/year for 1,000 gallon tanks; so that
changes the amortization schedule for just the tank to something
like 10 years for break even.

Generally I use anything around 5 years as a no brainer, but,
anything between 5 and 15 years takes a little thought. Come to
think of it, that would be an interesting topic in and of itself,
so, I'll bring that to a different thread.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Friday, September 27, 2013 2:09:02 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:03:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:
>
>
>
> > Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
>
> > they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway.
>
>

>
> I'm leaning toward the fact that whomever can prove it's theirs
>
> probably owns it, and, I can't prove it's mine.
>
>

So, who cares who owns it? As long as they aren't charging
you for it, the current company is the lowest cost propane
supplier, and they keep filling it, like others here I don't
see the logic in shelling out $1000+ for a new tank when you have a
free one.

>
> I did call the propane company and they told me that they changed
>
> their rules, which makes a difference.
>
>
>
> They now say they charge the same amount per gallon whether or
>
> not the owner owns the tank, so that knocks out one variable.
>
>
>
> They also said they lowered the rental fees, which are $95/year
>
> for 500 gallon tanks and $120/year for 1,000 gallon tanks; so that
>
> changes the amortization schedule for just the tank to something
>
> like 10 years for break even.
>
>
>
> Generally I use anything around 5 years as a no brainer, but,
>
> anything between 5 and 15 years takes a little thought. Come to
>
> think of it, that would be an interesting topic in and of itself,
>
> so, I'll bring that to a different thread.

Did you factor in the cost of a new concrete pad and the various
other work that needs to be done? Who's going to do it and how
much? Who hooks up the necessary piping and how much?
Who takes away the old tank and how much? You're assuming
the company owns it, so I guess they probably would take it
away, but you aren't really sure. It could be yours
for all you know. Cost of permits, if any?

[Kurt Ullman]

In article <l24hju$dgb$2...@solani.org>,

Alex Gunderson <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 09:03:04 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:
>
> > Why? The propane company seems to be tickled pink to fill it. Since
> > they bought the other company, it is most likely theirs anyway.
>
> I'm leaning toward the fact that whomever can prove it's theirs
> probably owns it, and, I can't prove it's mine.

Can the company prove it is their"s. Actually I'd contact the
company that made it and see if they can tell you who bought it. I would
think they would have to be able to do that for recalls, etc.,
especially for something like a propane tank. Be sorta funny if it was
third party altogether.

> Generally I use anything around 5 years as a no brainer, but,
> anything between 5 and 15 years takes a little thought. Come to
> think of it, that would be an interesting topic in and of itself,
> so, I'll bring that to a different thread.

The first thing would be try and figure out who owns it.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:56:53 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> If it were me, I'd just continue to use the existing
> tank. And if I could find the previous owner, I'd contact them and ask
> who owned the tank.

Well, I've changed my mind based on the information in this thread.
But I'm still lining up my ducks! :)

Basically, I realized from what was said here, that I don't
actually own the existing tank. So it's probably theirs (if they
can prove it - which they probably can).

So now I'm stuck paying $120/year, which, if it costs $1000 to put
in a new 1000-gallon tank, has a break-even point of about 10 years,
which seems worth it (since there's the additional savings of being
able to switch suppliers and saving an addition 25 to 50 cents
per gallon, which, on 1,000 gallons, could be as much as a few
hundred bucks per fill).

However, I just found out that a new 500 gallon tank, from the
same company that I'm using now, is actually around $1,800 &
a new 1,000 gallon tank is double that (they said the cost is
about $3.60/gallon).

So, that changes the economics but the equations are the same.

SAVINGS:
Yearly rental $120/year
Price-per-gallon savings (varies, but can be as high as $1)
Number of gallons per year (varies, but roughly 1,500 to 2,000)

COST:
$3,600 for a 1,000 gallon tank (dunno if regulator is included)
$400 for plumbing, pad, and trenching (I'm roughing costs out)

BREAK EVEN:
Assuming I can save, on average, 75 cents per gallon on about
1,500 gallons, that's a savings of $1,245 per year if I own
the tank.

Given the cost of ownership is $4,000, it would take only 3
years to make my money back - so that's a no brainer (since
it's less than 5 years) to own the tank myself.

If I assume a savings of only 50 cents per gallon, that brings
the break-even point to 4-1/2 years, which is still a no
brainer (since it's still less than 5 years).

So, if the company starts charging me rent for the tank,
and, at the same time, limits me to only them for fuel,
it seems to be a no brainer (by my logic anyway) to simply
buy the tank (maybe they will sell me that exact tank so
that I don't have to put a new pad in to meet the new rules).

Is my logic sound?

[Alex Gunderson]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:35:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> You can be pretty sure that you don't own it. From the scenario you
> describe, probably No 1 owns it since they bought #2.

I have come to this realization that you are probably correct.
I don't own the tank.
They probably own it.

> Your opinion does not matter.
I agree.

> unless you have a bill of sale
I do not.

> you did not buy it.
I now agree.

> If a propane company does not own the tank they are not
> allowed to fill it.

Actually, they fill their tanks and your tanks but they
won't fill a tanks that they know to be owned by a third
party.

[dadiOH]

"Alex Gunderson" <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l23th0$dgb$7...@solani.org
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:37:07 -0400, dadiOH wrote:
>
> > if one changes gas provider, the previous company has
> > 30 days to come get their tank; if they don't, then it
> > is bye-bye tank for them.
>
> Aha! That's the abandonment clause.
>
> That's the one thing I'm unsure of, out here, for
> California.
>
> I found THIS legal site, but it doesn't seem to cover
> that topic.
>
> http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=puc&group=04001-05000&file=4451-4465

If it were me, I'd consider the tank mine. Consider...

1. Previous owner bought gas from Company A. Tank was either the previous
owner's or rented from Company A (probable).

2. House was sold, you start buying LPG from Company B. Company A *knows*
they are no longer delivering gas, should have picked up tank if it was
theirs. They did not so either it was not theirs or they abandoned it. In
either case, I would now consider it mine; if someone asked to see a bill of
sale, I'd tell them it is none of their business and/or came with the house.

Paint it a pretty color, stencil your name on it and enjoy. Need I mention
that when you paint it you shouldn't sand or do anything else that could
cause sparks?


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:59:46 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

> look into burying it. i did that so i didn't have to look at it all the
> time. cost a bit more though, and you have to have additional permits and
> the right kind of ground to do so.

Just called the planning department.

In California, there is a $250 price for tank permits.
But, they do NOT take down the serial number.

The permit guy says he knows of no registration (like they have
in North Carolina) which holds ownership of a tank.

So, I need to look at the abandoned-property laws to find out
whether the tank can be considered abandoned after five years.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:59:46 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

> look into burying it. i did that so i didn't have to look at it all the
> time. cost a bit more though, and you have to have additional permits and
> the right kind of ground to do so.

When it comes time to do that, I will.

Right now, they told me a replacement tank (brand new) is $3.60/gallon.

I'm pretty sure that's the high end but that would make the tank and the
fuel just about the same price.

Googling for "How Much Does a 1000 Gallon Propane Tank Cost" finds lots
of hits, most of which are around $1200 to $1500 (which is $1.20/gallon
to about $1.50/gallon) which is less than the cost of the fuel which
goes *inside* the tank.

http://www.thriftypropane.com/purchasetank.aspx
http://www.ask.com/question/how-much-does-a-1000-gallon-propane-tank-cost
http://www.kudzu.com/article/How-much-does-a-propane-tank-cost-id10970
http://nepacrossroads.com/about16761.html

[dadiOH]

"Alex Gunderson" <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l245ub$dgb$2...@solani.org

> But, at this point, I don't think it's reasonable to
> think I'll invest in switching over all that equipment to
> alternative fuels.

Out of curiosity, what are you paying for gas?

I used Amerigas for a number of years...until I noticed (wife pays the
bills) that they were charging $5.25/gal. That was 4-5 years ago. I
switched to a smaller company, they charged $3.25. They were bought out by
Amerigas so I switched to Ferrell 2-3 years ago; they started out at about
$3.25 are now $5.00+.

IME, all the gas companies low ball you initially, rapidly bump it up
ridiculously.

[Chip C]

On Friday, 27 September 2013 10:34:13 UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 05:52:20 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>

> > Apparently they questioned him as to who owned the tank and he filled out
> > an affidavit stating that he owned it.
>

> Confirmed.

If anything ever goes wrong and the neighbors sue your delivery company (which they will, since it's richer than you) that affidavit will be central to downloading the liability to you. Which is kinda fair, really. I guess you could find yourself facing some kind of false-document charge, but only if some third party came forth with a claim to owning it, which is real unlikely after it blows up.

I presume your insurer has acknowledged its presence. They could forget you mentioned it to them, if it suited them.

I'm increasingly thinking that since (a) there is no branding of any kind on the tank and (b) whatever company the prior owner used never came to demand it back when he quit buying from them, that it actually is a privately owned tank, and that you really did take ownership of it with the house.

Chip C
Toronto

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 10:07:26 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> Thanks, good attention to detail.

Well, bear in mind that the cost for the tank is less than
the cost to fill the tank just once, so, it's not so odd
that I'm trying to scope out my options.

I'm pretty convinced, by now, that the tank was not bought
by me - but - I'm not sure whether the original owner has
forfeited his rights to the tank, by sheer length of
abandonment laws.

I'm kind of stumped at this point, because I called the
county planning office who said they knew of no registration
of propane tank serial numbers with them.

So, I'm actually back to the original question of who owns
the tank - only the details have changed.

Either I own the tank because the original owner abandoned it;
or, the original owner owns the tank because they originally
owned that tank.

I guess I should move that question to a legal group?

[dadiOH]

"Alex Gunderson" <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l23s22$dgb$2...@solani.org
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 00:24:08 -0500, dpb wrote:
>
> > Clearly you own the property in question; whether the
> > tank was the previous occupant's to transfer is in doubt
>
> After googling and googling and googling, I've come to the
> belated realization that this is a relatively common
> situation.
>
> I couldn't find any California statutes, so all I have is
> anecdotal forum and usenet situations, all of which have
> their myriad details, but it seems like the tank belongs
> to whomever can prove they own it.
>
> I went back to my title papers, and there is just no
> mention of the tank. Since the serial number is
> presumably unique, I am slowly realizing it's probably
> their tank, and not mine, as I have thought all this time.
>
> I will call the title insurance company today, to see if
> they'll compensate me for my $2,000 loss - but - since
> it's not actually mentioned in the paperwork, I doubt
> it's something they deal with.

>
> So, now I'm making plans for buying a new tank, and
> putting it in myself.

You would be money ahead - way ahead - renting one from your current gas
company. Depending upon how much you use, they might well charge you no
rent; especially if you tell them they can use/have the tank that came with
the house.

[dadiOH]

"Alex Gunderson" <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l24573$dgb$2...@solani.org

> On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:39:40 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> > I might have missed it. Is there some reason you
> > don't just keep hiring the existing company to
> > fill your propane? What's the big ownership
> > question? Are they far too expensive?
>
> Good question.
> I'm actually happy with the existing company.
>
> The only thing that 'may' change is they may charge
> a rental fee (which, over time, would, at some point,
> exceed the cost of the tank) and they may charge a
> higher rate for the propane.
>
> Plus, I can no longer shop around and go to someone
> else for propane (who may have a lower cost).

Yes you can. Go with a new company and they will either continue filling
the tank you have or rent you another; in the latter case the owner (not
you) of the current tank is supposed to come and het their tank. If they
don't you are back in ther situation tanksise that you are now but ther is
nothing stopping you from switching companies.

And if anyone ever has the temerity to try to charge you past rent for the
existing tank, tell them to take a hike.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Let's recap. You bought the property with a propane tank
attached to it. The sales contract says nothing about who
owns the tank. You believed at the time that you bought
it with the house. You called up the low cost propane
supplier and prior to starting filling service, they came out, inspected the tank, and asked you who owned it. You told
them you did and signed an affidavit to that effect. That
is what you believed at the time.

Now let's pause for a moment. The company actually inspected
the tank prior to filling it the first time. They didn't say
it was another company's tank. Also, the tank apparently has
no company name on it, which some other folks here I believe
have said is unusual for a leased tank. I would think so too.

A few years go by. Some tech from the gas company one day
tells you that he thinks it's owned by company X, which
apparently was the supplier to the previous owner? That
company has now been bought by your current supplier.
So, if the tank was company X's, it's now the property of
your current supplier. The big assumption here is that
the tech is right. He could just be talking out his ass.
And how does
he now know it belonged to company X, when previously the
gas company inspected it, asked who owned it, and didn't have
a problem when you said you did? Was this tech there some
time after the company was bought out? If so, then maybe he
referenced a database of serial #'s that now includes company X's
tanks, so now it's listed as that company's tank.

But at the end of the day, why do you care? You have a free
tank and you've done nothing wrong. If some day your company
claims they own the tank, so what? Your position is that
you believed it was the property of the owner at the time
of sale. That is the truth. If they have a claim for back
rental fees, as I see it, it's against the FORMER OWNER.
He presumably signed the lease agreement for the tank, not
you. You tell the gas company that and to go after him.
Even if they go after you, so what? There is a statute of
limitations for bringing such a claim. I just checked and
for CA for a debt claim, it's 4 years. So, the most they
could get is $120 a year times four years, $480. Less if
the lease rates were lower in those years.

So, BFD, they may have a claim against the
former owner for $480. If they persist in trying to collect
from you, offer them $300 to BUY the tank at that point.
Or let them take you to court over $480. I doubt they
would do it, and IMO, it's unlikely they would win. Even
if they take the previous owner to court, who IMO, is
more likely responsible, I don't think they would collect
more than $100 or so. Why? Because they could have come
at any time to pick up the tank after he stopped paying
for it. They didn't do that. So maybe a court would
give them 6 months worth of rental fees. And
the previous owner is likely going to claim he called them up
to terminate service, told them the house was sold, etc
and he's probably got an excellent case that it's THEIR
screw up, not his. The former owner would have to have
been pretty dumb to not tell them he's done with their
service, because you would be running up a bill in his
name.

In short, I think you're hell bent on spending $1500 or
more to buy a new tank, when you have no real problem at
this point. And at most, you have a POTENTIAL, small
problem in the future. What's better? Starting a whole
mess and paying $1500 - $2000 for a new tank today or
taking the chance that someday you might have to pay
$500? More likely if they haven't caught it or done
anything by now, you'll pay zero.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 06:09:28 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> The key question here is a claim against who? They are talking about the
> seller not stating who owns the tank, disclosing that it is not theirs,
> etc at the time of sale. In that case, what they are saying is that you
> may have a claim against the SELLER.

I called the title company, who said that they will get back to me to
confirm, but, offhand, they said they don't cover "personal property".

They said they "think" the propane tank (just like a satellite dish)
is actually "personal property".

They suggested I talk to my real estate agent whom I did call.

My real estate agent didn't know (she suggested I look on the net) but
she said she'd see if she could find out.

It could be that personal property is considered abandoned at some
time period after the sale; or, it could be that personal property
lasts forever (like the car example someone gave earlier).

I don't know but it seems the question boils down to:

Given the propane company can probably prove they originally
owned the tank, and that they originally entered into an agreement
with the prior seller, who didn't disclose anything (either way)
about the tank (or, for that matter, the satellite dishes on the
roof) ... who owns that tank today?

Either *they* own it (because they originally owned it); or,
I own it (by virtue of the fact they abandoned it).

I still don't know the answer to that key question ...

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Friday, September 27, 2013 2:49:57 PM UTC-4, Alex Gunderson wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2013 23:35:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
>
> > You can be pretty sure that you don't own it.

Why exactly is that? All he has is a tech from the
current gas company telling him that he thinks it is owned
by company X, which is now part of the current gas
company.

From the scenario you
>
> > describe, probably No 1 owns it since they bought #2.
>
>
>
> I have come to this realization that you are probably correct.
>
> I don't own the tank.
>
> They probably own it.
>
>
>
> > Your opinion does not matter.
>
> I agree.
>
>
>
> > unless you have a bill of sale
>
> I do not.
>
>
>
> > you did not buy it.
>
> I now agree.
>
>

This is just pure nonsense. Just because you don't have
a bill of sale doesn't mean you don't own it. I don't have
a bill of sale for most of the stuff in my house. Does
that mean I don't own it? Does the current gas company
have the bill of sale or proof that THEY own it? All
you have are the flapping gums of one tech.

The simple fact is at this point you don't know who owns
it. And again, you're getting gas, no one is saying they
want the tank back, no one is charging you for it. WTF is
the problem?

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:57:42 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

> if you have no paperwork on that, then
> it didn't occur.

I do agree I do NOT have a bill of sale.

So, at this point, I believe that the serial number
probably matches that of the serial number of the
tank that was originally rented to the previous owner.

So, that serial number would certainly prove that the
original tank was originally owned by the original company
which is now probably owned by my propane company who
bought the original propane company & presumably their
assets.

So the key question is how long can such property be left
at someone's house in California before it can be considered
abandoned (e.g., propane tanks, satellite dishes, etc.).

My title company said it was likely personal property and
therefore not covered by them (they'll get back to me).

The county planning office said they have a record of permits
but they do NOT write down serial numbers on those permits.

My real estate agent said she has never run into this
question before and suggested I ask on the Internet.

The key question is who owns the tank after it has been
left there for about five years in the state of California
and not "claimed" nor removed by the original company?

[CRNG]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 20:25:02 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson
<Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in <l24piu$dgb$2...@solani.org> Re Re: Who

actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:

>I called the title company, who said that they will get back to me to
>confirm, but, offhand, they said they don't cover "personal property".
>
>They said they "think" the propane tank (just like a satellite dish)
>is actually "personal property".

Generally, personal property that is "substantially affixed" to real
property, becomes real property. For example, consider a large
bathroom mirror that is hung with wires on the back of the mirror
frame to hooks on the wall. That mirror is personal property.

But take that mirror and screw it onto the wall via bolts going
through the frame and into the studs and it becomes real property.

Is a large outside steel tank connected by underground pipe to a
heating unit (which is certainly real property) also real property? I
would say yes; but that's what they have juries for: to decide such
things.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:06:14 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

> one of the few places I have seen where solar seems to
> work better than most alternatives is the pool heater.

I have a solar pool heater. It's great!
I also have a propane fueled pool heater (I use it for the spa).
It works FAST and it works at night! :)

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:21:39 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

> Out of curiosity, what are you paying for gas?

I'm in a propane-buyers group cooperative.

Here are the prices, each month, for the past year:
http://www.southskyline.org/images/SPUG-2013-09-08_zoom.gif

How does that compare with your cooperative?

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 15:26:02 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

> Depending upon how much you use, they might well charge you no
> rent; especially if you tell them they can use/have the tank that came
> with the house.

I understand that the tank costs less new than the gas that is
inside that tank, so, it makes sense they'd rather have my
business than the tank.

But, that still doesn't answer the question of who actually
owns the tank.

I could see the argument going either way depending on California
law (whatever it is for this kind of property).

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 13:42:32 -0400, clare wrote:

> I wouldn't WANT to own a 1000 gallon fuel tank - propane, gasoline,
> or deisel, strictly from the liability perspective. They own it, they are
> responsible for it, and if anything goes wrong THEY replace it.

For some strange reason, from a home-repair perspective, owning
a big round cylinder that will outlast me plus the next two owners
of my residence (whomever they may be) just isn't a big worry for me.

I'm more worried about things that actually have moving parts.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:28:58 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> So, who cares who owns it? As long as they aren't charging you for it,
> the current company is the lowest cost propane supplier, and they keep
> filling it, like others here I don't see the logic in shelling out $1000+
> for a new tank when you have a free one.

I think I didn't make it clear that I was just lining up my ducks.

I agree with you, it matters not who owns it as long as they don't
charge me for them owning it.

I asked the question only because I only recently found out that they
say they own it - and I expect them to say that I need to pay rent
at some point in the future.

Or, I might want to go to a different supplier, and, if so, I can no
longer file an affidavit that implies that I own it.

At either of those points, it matters greatly who owns it.
That's why I care now.
Before one of those two things happens.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:35:17 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

> The first thing would be try and figure out who owns it.

:)

That's exactly why I asked the question!

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 14:35:17 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:

> Can the company prove it is theirs.

If they lay claim to the tank, that's the very first question I will
ask them.

In fact, it was the very first question they asked me almost 5 years
ago, when I asked them to fill the tank for the first time.

Since I didn't have a bill of sale, I signed an affidavit saying I
believed the tank was mine.

> Actually I'd contact the company that made it and see if they can
> tell you who bought it.

I'm at work right now, but that's an EXCELLENT idea.
I will call them tomorrow to figure out if they can tell me that!

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 13:20:34 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> Let's recap. You bought the property with a propane tank attached to it.
> The sales contract says nothing about who owns the tank. You believed at
> the time that you bought it with the house. You called up the low cost
> propane supplier and prior to starting filling service, they came out,
> inspected the tank, and asked you who owned it. You told them you did and
> signed an affidavit to that effect. That is what you believed at the
> time.

Wow. You're good!

> Now let's pause for a moment. The company actually inspected the tank
> prior to filling it the first time. They didn't say it was another
> company's tank. Also, the tank apparently has no company name on it,
> which some other folks here I believe have said is unusual for a leased
> tank. I would think so too.

Yup. Exactly.

> A few years go by. Some tech from the gas company one day tells you that
> he thinks it's owned by company X, which apparently was the supplier to
> the previous owner? That company has now been bought by your current
> supplier.

Yup. AFAIK.

> So, if the tank was company X's, it's now the property of your current
> supplier. The big assumption here is that the tech is right. He could
> just be talking out his ass.

When he said it, I questioned it, saying I owned the tank.
He said the serial numbers matched as did the address, but that he'd check.
I haven't heard back from him (but that was only yesterday).

> And how does he now know it belonged to company X, when previously the gas
> company inspected it, asked who owned it, and didn't have a problem when
> you said you did?

The implication was that it's the same address and serial number of a tank
that is in the database of the company that owned the tank originally.

Presumably the first company merged databases with the second company?
If it's all true, then it would be rather easy (since the address and
serial numbers would match.)

> But at the end of the day, why do you care?

Good question. I don't care IF. If they don't try any funny stuff, it
won't matter to me. But, what if they try to say I can't go to a 2nd
supplier for propane? What if they decide to charge me forward rent?
Or back rent? (I doubt they'd do that though).

> If some day your company claims they own the tank, so what?

Once they claim ownership, then when I go to a second company for propane,
I can't legally sign an affidavit stating I believe I own the tank.

So, it matters greatly who owns that tank at this moment in time!

> If they have a claim for back rental fees, as I see it, it's against
> the FORMER OWNER. He presumably signed the lease agreement

I would agree with that (but I'm not a lawyer); it sounds reasonable.

> Even if they go after you, so what? There is a statute of limitations for
> bringing such a claim. I just checked and for CA for a debt claim, it's 4
> years. So, the most they could get is $120 a year times four years, $480.

I just checked and I've had that tank for only 4.5 years. If they decide
to charge back rent (which I doubt they would), it looks like I'm in the
free period now at least! :)

> they could have come at any time to pick up the tank after he stopped
> paying for it. They didn't do that.

This is true. All they needed to do was disconnect the pipes with a wrench
and bring a truck to haul it away. They might have to pay me for the
fuel inside, but, other than that, they "could" have physically taken it.
(I'm not sure if there are legal rules against trespassing to take back
your property though.)

[bob haller]

its probably best to keep the tank at least half full, in case some day OP cant get it filled.
Then keep a low profile and hope its forgotten about. repainting the tank is probably a good idea, to fix rust and cover possible ownership questions.

when OP is ready to sell home expect lots of unpleasant questions.....

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 08:14:50 -0700, chaniarts wrote:

> i think the OP wants it in a different place. the propane company won't
> want to do that for free.

If it comes down to a new tank, we'd have to follow current regulations,
and the current tank location wouldn't meet the new regulations for distance
from structures.

But, I shouldn't have brought that up because the "real" question is
who owns the tank at this very moment.

I will try to contact the manufacturer of the tank when I get home
to ask them if they can trace the serial number to an original owner.

[dadiOH]

"Alex Gunderson" <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in message

> Googling for "How Much Does a 1000 Gallon Propane Tank
> Cost" finds lots of hits, most of which are around $1200
> to $1500 (which is $1.20/gallon to about $1.50/gallon)
> which is less than the cost of the fuel which goes
> *inside* the tank.

I keep meaning to ask, are you sure this is a 1000 gallon tank? That would
be HUGE for a residence. Generally, they are 100-120 gallons; physically,
maybe 6' long x 24-30" in diameter.

[Alex Gunderson]

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 07:50:57 -0700, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> It would seem to me that their claim
> is against the previous owner, not you.

If I were the current propane company, I would not go after
back rent simply because nobody ever billed *me* for rent
and the original company certainly knew the address (if not
my name).

So, the original company "could" have billed me for the rent
all along - and they certainly did not.

The original company could have physically taken the tank
(but they'd have to trespass to do so) at any time, as it's
not bolted down.

The key problem now is that, if the tank truly is owned by
the propane company, then I can't legally switch suppliers
at any future point in time, simply because I can't sign
the affidavit that says I own the tank.

So, it still matters who owns the tank. It just doesn't
matter until/unless I want to switch suppliers or the
propane company wants to charge me future rent.

I guess it also matters if I sell the house; but I have no
plans for doing that.

[dadiOH]

"Alex Gunderson" <Al...@mail.is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l24vs4$dgb$3...@solani.org

No cooperative. Prices here are $5.00+/gallon. We are being screwed.