Water Heaters nearly FILLED with CALCIUM.

[Caulki...@work.com]

I live in the country and have a well. My water is hard and has iron,
but tastes good and does not clog pipes. The worst problem is that
orange ring in the toilet that I have to clean every so often. I can
live with that, compared to what is happening in a close by town.

The town has a large deep well that fills two water towers. From there
it's piped to the homes and businesses. Apparently that water is coming
from a source that contains lots of calcium rock. What is happening is
that people in town have to replace their water heaters every few years
because the heaters can and do completely fill with calcium deposits.

A friend in town called me last week to ask why his hot water is only
warm and not hot. I went there and tested the elements in this 3 year
old electric water heater. The lower element was dead. We bought
another element, and I proceeded to shut off the cold water, and
electricity to the tank, then attempt to drain the tank. The water came
out of the drain valve drip by drip. I tried to remove the plastic
valve from the tank, but it would not budge, and I hesitated to try
harder in fear of breaking it off. I suggested we get pails and just
remove the element and catch the water in the pails. This element was
very stubborn to remove, but it finally came out. What I found inside
the tank was shocking. The entire lower element was buried in calcium
sludge, and the electrode part of it. had broken off and remained inside
this sludge in the tank.

I grabbed a long thick screwdriver and began to dig out this sludge,
which eventually allowed to water to exit the tank faster. The water
looked more like milk in color. I asked him several times about the age
of the tank, and he insisted it was 3 years old. He finally went and
got the paperwork for the tank and showed me the receipt which showed it
was actually 3-1/2 years old. I was shocked. I've worked on tanks that
were 20 years old and never seem so much crud in them (in other cities
and towns).

The decision was to dig out as much of this sludge as possible, and
install the new element until he can afford a new water heater. This
worked for now, but is not the ideal fix. Just for the heck of it, I
phoned a local plumber, and asked him is this is a common problem in
this town. He said that closeto half of his calls are due to water
heaters that are filled with sludge, and need to be replaced. He said
most water heaters last 5 years at most.

My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Lastly, I was thinking that when my friend gets a new water heater,
would it be possible to dump the old tank upside down to remove as much
of this sludge as possible from the pipe inlets, then to pour a gallon
of vinegar in the tank. Will the vinegar disolve and thus remove the
calcium? Or maybe a weak acid? It seems wasteful to trash a 3 year old
water heater if this sludge can be removed. Once he gets a new heater,
I'd like to take that old one and experiment to see what can clean it
out. I'm sure that tank could be used for many more years if that
calcium could be removed, and new elements installed.

I also think that the reason the lower element burned out was because of
that calcium coating it. The heat is not being dissipated fast enough
into the water and that sludge is acting like an insulation, which
caused the element to overheat and burn out. This is my opinion anyhow.

Has anyone successfully cleaned out a tank like this?

By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.

[harryagain]

<Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
news:eh1c69tea3itb9btf...@4ax.com...

They can only be chemically cleaned. Quite often after cleaning they leak
and it is an expensive time consumng business.
What you need is a water softener but you will need to buy salt to
regenerate it.
Don't bother with the electric/magnetiscgizmos, they are snakeoil.

You should not be drinking the softened water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_softener

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 00:38:17 -0500, Caulki...@work.com wrote:



>
>My reason for posting this message is because I'm wondering if there is
>anything that can be done to filter out this calcium before it gets into
>the water heaters? I know little about water softeners, but from what I
>do know, they are more intended for hard water, which would be more what
>my water is, with the iron in it. Whether they will remove calcium is
>something I dont know, particularly when the calcium levels are so high.
>
>Is there anything else that can help this problem? I'm curious !!!

Softeners use sodium to replace calcium. Sounds like what he needs.
It can be put on the line feeding the hot water only if that is the
only problem.

There are also filter systems for calcium, but I have no idea how well
they work.

[dadiOH]

<Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
news:eh1c69tea3itb9btf...@4ax.com

> My reason for posting this message is because I'm
> wondering if there is anything that can be done to filter
> out this calcium before it gets into the water heaters?
> I know little about water softeners, but from what I do
> know, they are more intended for hard water, which would
> be more what my water is, with the iron in it. Whether
> they will remove calcium is something I dont know,
> particularly when the calcium levels are so high.

Hard water is "hard" because of dissolved limestone - calcium - not iron.

Water softeners remove calcium; as an added benefit, they remove some iron.
The fix for your friend is a water softener; the *best* fix is for the town
to soften the water before it is piped to all the homes they are screwing
up.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[David L. Martel]

Gunn,

If this fellow has that much calcium in his water it should be really
obvious. There will be calcium buildup on all of his plumbing fixtures and
some of his appliances. It's really hard to believe that an entire town has
this problem but nobody has heard of water softeners. Sounds like this guy
needs a whole house water softener. If he likes the taste of the hard water
(some folks do)then hard water can be run to the kitchen sink's cold water
faucet with some plumbing.
A water softener will remove the calcium in the water, usually by
replacing it with sodium. Such water softeners aren't happy about iron and
must be cleaned occasionally with iron removers. Sears, sells water
softeners so they test water for free. He should get his water tested asap.
The test should tell him how much hardness and iron is in his water and the
pH. Once he knows what he's got in his water he can shop for a softener, if
necessary. To get the free test he'll need to listen to the salesman's
pitch. He should Google water softeners so he can follow the sales pitch.

Dave M.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 07:40:43 -0400, "dadiOH" <dad...@invalid.com>
wrote:

><Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
>news:eh1c69tea3itb9btf...@4ax.com
>
>> My reason for posting this message is because I'm
>> wondering if there is anything that can be done to filter
>> out this calcium before it gets into the water heaters?
>> I know little about water softeners, but from what I do
>> know, they are more intended for hard water, which would
>> be more what my water is, with the iron in it. Whether
>> they will remove calcium is something I dont know,
>> particularly when the calcium levels are so high.
>
>Hard water is "hard" because of dissolved limestone - calcium - not iron.
>
>Water softeners remove calcium; as an added benefit, they remove some iron.
>The fix for your friend is a water softener; the *best* fix is for the town
>to soften the water before it is piped to all the homes they are screwing
>up.

I grew up in a town with some of the hardest (and most delicious)
water in Ontario. Water softeners were almost mandatory. Those wells
have been closed due to contamination by a multinational chemical
company, with water now fed from the nearby city of waterloo which
uses both wells and "artificial recharge" from the grand river - which
has significantly tempered the hardness of the local water supply.

Still use softeners though.

[jamesgang]

I'd suggest draining the new water tank every 3 months or so as a preventative measure. I suspect it's not all calcium.

Calcium will react with hydrocloric and muriatic acids. Lowes sells a fairly strong muriatic acid by the gallon if you want to try cleaning the old one. Vinegar is a very weak acid and you would need tons of it to make any progress. Be careful of any fumes.

[NotMe]

<Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
news:eh1c69tea3itb9btf...@4ax.com...

An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 8:21:24 AM UTC-4, David L. Martel wrote:
> Gunn,
>
>
>
> If this fellow has that much calcium in his water it should be really
>
> obvious. There will be calcium buildup on all of his plumbing fixtures and
>
> some of his appliances. It's really hard to believe that an entire town has
>
> this problem but nobody has heard of water softeners.

+1

[tra...@optonline.net]

First problem with that is that the acid will also react with the
metal tank. I would assume the tanks have some kind of coating,
eg galvanized?, but if it's anything that reacts with acid, then
you may not have much of a tank left.

Second problem is since the tank is buried in material, how much
acid is it going to take to dissolve it all. Which gets back to
problem #1. A lot of acid for a long time isn't going to be good
for the tank.

[jamesgang]

The tanks are typically lined with glass. Otherwise they would rust out too quickly. As long as you are careful not to physically damage the glass it's ok to try to clean a tank out. Acid solutions should not harm the glass. Not so sure about the elements but I would probably take those out. I suspect 90% of the accumulation can be broken up and rinsed out with a spray nozzle.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/22/2013 11:07 AM, NotMe wrote:
> <Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
> news:eh1c69tea3itb9btf...@4ax.com...
>>

>> By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
>> the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
>> this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.
>>
>
> An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?

Be interesting to study. There could easily
be a relationship. All that calcium, probably
good bones and teeth?


.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[jamesgang]

Hard water is very common in many parts of the us. Particularly rural wells. Our well water is fairly hard. I got a water softener off craigs list but still need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to soften the outside faucets and many people leave the kitchen cold tap off as well for drinking water. Water softeners substitute sodium for the calcium and magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for people with heart issues. How much sodium ends up in the water depends on how much calcium there was to begin with and how effective the water softener is.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

If tou start with very hard water, the softened water will contain no
more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass of water - still very low
sodium. (assuming your softener is working reasonably well)

[dadiOH]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message

> > Hard water is very common in many parts of the us.
> > Particularly rural wells. Our well water is fairly
> > hard. I got a water softener off craigs list but still
> > need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to
> > soften the outside faucets and many people leave the
> > kitchen cold tap off as well for drinking water. Water
> > softeners substitute sodium for the calcium and
> > magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for
> > people with heart issues. How much sodium ends up in
> > the water depends on how much calcium there was to
> > begin with and how effective the water softener is.

> If you start with very hard water, the softened water

> will contain no more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass
> of water - still very low sodium. (assuming your softener
> is working reasonably well)

To give that a bit of perspective, a large glass (11.5 oz.) of V8 has 690
mg.

[David L. Martel]

Clare,

> If tou start with very hard water, the softened water will contain no
> more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass of water - still very low
> sodium. (assuming your softener is working reasonably well)

My water is quite hard, 35 Gr/gal. That's about 2270 mg. of Ca in a
gallon. That's about 0.11 moles of Ca. So my water softener will put out
0.22 moles of Na in exchange for the Ca. That's about 2430 mg of Na in a
gallon. Assuming that your large glass of water is a half pint that's about
150 mg.
Where are you getting your 13 mg. figure? Check my math, did I make a
mistake? Why can't the water be harder than you say?

Dave M.

[Red Green]

Caulki...@work.com wrote in
news:eh1c69tea3itb9btf...@4ax.com:

Yep. had the exact same experience like 25 years ago. Had to break the
element to unscrew it. After getting it out I used a rod to break up the
calcium little by little. Duct taped (for real!) a piece of clear hose
that would fit through the element opening to a shop vac hose. Break up
with rod, suck out, break up with rod, suck out. Hours and hours of
this. Ended up with a drywall bucket of the junk. Put new element in.
Ran OK until I moved a few years later.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The information came from a reference I found on water softener
performance. I believe they were working on a 30 grain hardness as a
basis.

[Caulki...@work.com]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang
<james...@gmail.com> wrote:

>

>Hard water is very common in many parts of the us. Particularly rural wells.
Our well water is fairly hard. I got a water softener off craigs list
but still need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to soften the
outside faucets and many people leave the kitchen cold tap off as well
for drinking water. Water softeners substitute sodium for the calcium
and magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for people with
heart issues. How much sodium ends up in the water depends on how much
calcium there was to begin with and how effective the water softener is.

[end quote]
----

This does not pertain to my original question, since that is in a city.
However, lets say that a person lives in a rural area with a well. They
use a water softener. Generally those same people have a septic tank.
I've seen the large amount of salt that is used for softeners, often
several hundred pounds weekly. All that salt is going into the septic
tank. That would devour a metal septic tank in a short time, and if the
tank is concrete, all that sale must accumulate, and leach out from the
drain field. That must do a lot of damage to the soil and environment
around them.

Even those connected to a city municipal sewer system are dumping large
amounts of salt into the sewer system. Where does it all go? We're not
talking a teaspoon of salt here.......
I once worked for a hospital doing maintenance work, and I was in charge
of filling the brine tanks for that building. Every two weeks we would
dump 10 to 14 bags of salt in them. That's 50lb bags. So, that would
be 500 to 700 lbs of salt every two weeks, or roughly 15,000 lbs per
year, which is 7 to 8 tons of salt each year just from one building.
That's a lot of salt which ends up somewhere down the sewer pipes. If
you ask me, that could result in an eventual environmental disaster....

[Caulki...@work.com]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 23:56:10 +0000 (UTC), Red Green
<postm...@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>
>Yep. had the exact same experience like 25 years ago. Had to break the
>element to unscrew it. After getting it out I used a rod to break up the
>calcium little by little. Duct taped (for real!) a piece of clear hose
>that would fit through the element opening to a shop vac hose. Break up
>with rod, suck out, break up with rod, suck out. Hours and hours of
>this. Ended up with a drywall bucket of the junk. Put new element in.
>Ran OK until I moved a few years later.

That sounds like a good way to remove it. I'll give that a try when
that guy replaces the tank, because I'm sure he will call me to do the
work, and I'll have to "dispose" the old tank.

Thanks!

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
No one there ever has water softener and iron remover??????

[harryagain]

"David L. Martel" <mart...@frontier.com> wrote in message
news:l47046$qbi$1...@dont-email.me...

Calcium bicarbonate is not very soluble in water so even a saturated
solution does not amount to much.
Hence when softened, there is not much sodium bicarbonate.
Whether there is enough to effect you health, there is debate about.

But hard water is good for you to drink and tastes better, no doubt.

[dadiOH]

<Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
news:f2ee69l0uk89l6gde...@4ax.com

> This does not pertain to my original question, since that
> is in a city. However, lets say that a person lives in a
> rural area with a well. They use a water softener.
> Generally those same people have a septic tank. I've seen
> the large amount of salt that is used for softeners,
> often several hundred pounds weekly.

Not for a home. Maybe in a year, not in a week.
________________

> All that salt is
> going into the septic tank.

No salt goes into the septic tank. Or anywhere else. What winds up in the
water is a carbonate of sodium, not salt.

[David L. Martel]

Gunn,

Hundreds of pounds weekly? I use about 40 lbs every couple of months. I
live alone.
No one I know discharges their recharge brine and rinsings into the
septic system. The discharge line is usually linked with the washing machine
discharge line, which goes to a drainage ditch. I've watched the vegetation
at my discharge site. It's not been affected by 20 yrs of salty discharge.
I'm surprised by this.

Dave M.

[David L. Martel]

Clare,

Well something's wrong. Either I screwed up the math or they screwed up
the math or you misunderstood the site. What's the URL?

Dave M.

[RobertMacy]

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 20:00:41 -0700, <Caulki...@work.com> wrote:

>> ...snip...

> This does not pertain to my original question, since that is in a city.
> However, lets say that a person lives in a rural area with a well. They
> use a water softener. Generally those same people have a septic tank.

.
> ...snip... to satsify QIOE's requirement of NOT quoting too much.

>
> Even those connected to a city municipal sewer system are dumping large
> amounts of salt into the sewer system. Where does it all go? We're not
> talking a teaspoon of salt here.......

> ...snip exellent deail....

> That's a lot of salt which ends up somewhere down the sewer pipes. If
> you ask me, that could result in an eventual environmental disaster....
>

We live in rural AZ, well water and 'special' septic system for leach
field into ROCKS

Water so hard leaves little 'white' trails everywhere. House had no
softener, was considering one. But instantly after moving in, the hot
water heater failed. cost $180 for 'emergency' guy to come out, change
heating element [only let him after reeived a 1yr guarranttee], tells me
about how hard water kills everything here and expect a new element every
6 months, or so. Within 4 months new element failed, called to have them
honor warranttee and was told "oh, that comes under the heading of
'electric' parts and is NOT covered, you understand don't you?" NO, so I
vented my spleen a bit, and went after fixing it myself.

The element had burned in two and was discharging electricity through the
water! Called Water Heater Mfgr to obtain new element, or recommend one,
find out no problem hot water heater was still under warrantee, simply
give me the number off the label, only to find out while house was empty
for selling, someone had stolen the label to use elsewhere! Told by mfgr
that that was a common problem, I told them a paper label is a poor way to
control warrantees. Asked them about using water softener and was told BY
THE MANUFACTURER that their heaters are NOT designed for soft water and I
shouldn't do it, unless I just want softer water. Are you sure? they said
it again.

When I removed the failed heating element I found it was simply a standard
heating element from Home Depot, which has its own 1 yr warranttee! that
@$##@ service compnay could have replaced the element. Anyway, I changed
the element and it worked great for 4 months, until....So replaced again.
Lasted about 11 months. Replaced again. This time noticed a bit of
'sludge' in the bottom that did not come out with the flushing. So poured
some muriatic acid in there, sloshed it around, and THEN all of the sludge
came out - clean. Also, found that a longer time cycle on cleaning the
heating element before installation evidently does something to the
metal's surface that now makes the element last longer! It's been over 14
months on this last one. Must have 'pickled' the surface, or something.

Water softener? I don't like the feel of soft water, but thought would
help plumbing. So considered it. Neighbour has WS and his leach field has
a huge chalky white area on the surface! and very little plant life, even
in AZ! and his has been running for only one year before we moved in.
After we have lived over two years, with no WS we have no discernment of
where the leach field is, except the floral is a bit greener, taller, and
more lush there.

So all in all, it came down to change the element myself [whenever
necessary, keep a spare], and no WS. Saving $300 installation charge goes
a long way to buy all those elements.

I agree with you about the potential environmental impact of WS. For one
person it's probably great, but if everybody had one?

Plus, a commercial reverse osmosis has more pressure, so runs much more
efficiently than a residential RO system.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 10/23/2013 10:07 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
>
> We live in rural AZ, well water and 'special' septic system for leach
> field into ROCKS
>
> Water so hard leaves little 'white' trails everywhere. House had no
> softener, was considering one. But instantly after moving in, the hot
> water heater failed. cost $180 for 'emergency' guy to come out, change
> heating element [only let him after reeived a 1yr guarranttee], tells me
> about how hard water kills everything here and expect a new element
> every 6 months, or so. Within 4 months new element failed, called to
> have them honor warranttee and was told "oh, that comes under the
> heading of 'electric' parts and is NOT covered, you understand don't
> you?" NO, so I vented my spleen a bit, and went after fixing it myself.
>

> So all in all, it came down to change the element myself [whenever
> necessary, keep a spare], and no WS. Saving $300 installation charge
> goes a long way to buy all those elements.
>

Years ago, I'd seen "low wattage density" elements. The
tube goes out, back, out, back. So the surface of the
tube doesn't get as hot. Worth a look, see if they still
are sold.

--

[jamesgang]

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:00:41 PM UTC-4, Caulki...@work.com wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang
>
>
>
>
> >
>

First no one is using 500lbs of salt every two weeks. Second, don't run the regenerate drain into the septic system. Simple. The world is full of salt, I don't think it's going to become an environmental disaster.

[Cindy Hamilton]

In article <l48g0u$epa$1...@dont-email.me>,

When we bought our house, it had a septic tank. The washing machine
discharged into a sump in the basement, and the greywater was pumped
up and out into the septic tank. We'd catch hell for discharging
it into a drainage ditch, which would run untreated into the Great
Lakes via the Huron River. Plus, I'd be afraid that the line would
freeze in the winter.

We added a softener. For the year that I had a septic tank and
a water softener, I discharged my recharge brine into a sump shared
by the washing machine. Granted, a year isn't very long.

(Then we decided that the well was too much bother; it was
sulfurous. We hooked up to municipal water and sewer. It was
expensive to do, and the ongoing bills make me grit my teeth
every time I pay them, but we consider it well worth it. But I
digress.)

Cindy Hamilton
--

[NotMe]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Tsz9u.121088$i75....@fx03.iad...

> On 10/22/2013 11:07 AM, NotMe wrote:
>> <Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
>> news:eh1c69tea3itb9btf...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
>>> the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
>>> this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.
>>>
>>
>> An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?
>
>
> Be interesting to study. There could easily
> be a relationship. All that calcium, probably
> good bones and teeth?
>

Just moved from an area with a LOT of calcium in the water averaged 2 kidney
stone a year for all the time there. Now in an area without excessive
calcium. Except for one the first year we moved no new stones in 5 + years.

I should note that not all kidney stones are formed from calcium.

[bud--]

I agree with everyone that said calcium is controlled by a water
softener. I would think of calcium compound buildup is that fast it
would be a problem in pipes, including the water system pipes.

There are fixes for iron in the water. This has a lot of information:
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/wells/waterquality/iron.html

[mako...@yahoo.com]

>
> Years ago, I'd seen "low wattage density" elements. The
>
> tube goes out, back, out, back. So the surface of the
>
> tube doesn't get as hot. Worth a look, see if they still
>
> are sold.
>
>

and set the water heater to the lowest temp that you can still use for a shower.

Mark

[Tony944]

"bud--" <nu...@void.com> wrote in message
news:52680574$0$46044$c3e8da3$88b2...@news.astraweb.com...

Gentlemen do not get confuse between calcium and silica that we see on the
pipes faucet deposit 90%
of time it is silica which is very hard to get ready of. Take sample of you
water to lab and get it analyzed.

[TimR]

On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 1:20:53 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
> I agree with everyone that said calcium is controlled by a water
>
> softener. I would think of calcium compound buildup is that fast it
>
> would be a problem in pipes, including the water system pipes.
>

And toilet flush valves. I'd think they'd stop working about every six months.

[N8N]

sounds like, in addition to other ideas, your friend ought to replace the drain valve on his new WH before it is installed with a ball valve. shopping list:

3/4" pipe nipple, to fit
3/4" threaded ball valve
3/4" MPT to GHT brass adapter
brass GHT cap (so if someone kicks the valve lever you don't have a basement gusher)
pipe dope or tape

then flush out the tank periodically... standard recommendation is every year but if it's gunking up that bad might want to do it more often. Turn off breaker before doing so so as not to burn out elements (or turn off pilot on gas so as not to stress tank heating it dry)

with a ball valve you'll get much more flow than a boiler drain so hopefully that will carry more sediment out, and in any case won't stick/fail/need replacement for the life of the WWH

To make it more convenient to flush regularly, leaving a dedicated garden hose next to WH long enough to reach laundry sink is a good idea, can be length of an old patched outdoor one, you're only going to use it every now and then anyway.

I've seen recommendations for a curved end dip tubes to help keep sediment from accumulating; I don't know if those help or not. Makes sense in theory though.

good luck,

nate
nate

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 25 Oct 2013 05:37:40 -0700 (PDT), TimR <timot...@aol.com>
wrote:

In some places, some do. I know a few that never make it past about
18 months.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
I wonder if Ca, Organic Fe level is so high in the water, do folks there
drink it daily? Won't it cause health issues for some? Scary.........
There are softeners which don't use salt out there. My friend had new
house just built outside city limit. His water treatment set up cost
50K grand I heard.

[Ashton Crusher]

>By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
>the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
>this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.

I used to have this problem with both gas and electric water heaters.
Then I started turning the temperature down to no more then 120. That
eliminated most of the problem, instead of them burning up/clogging up
in 3 years they last 8 to 15 years. It helps if you have a dishwasher
that can heat the water cuz 120 isn't really hot enough to do a good
job cleaning dishes. 120 is plenty hot enough for showers and
laundry.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 18:20:59 -0700, Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net>
wrote:

...and plenty cold enough for some really nasty bacteria to grow. Your
life.

[Ashton Crusher]

Yeah, I've heard that claim yet in 20+ years I've had not a single
problem. Oh, and I don't drink my hot water.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 23:43:07 -0700, Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net>

How long did it take for Legionella to show up? It's your life. I'm
not a lefty so it's your choice.

[Ashton Crusher]

Yeah, I'm taking a HUGE risk. Out of a country of 350 million people
there are perhaps 50 a year that die from Legionella, perhaps half a
dozen of those got it from their personal water heaters. Yes, it's
REALLY SUCH A HUGE RISK!!!!! Of course, I'm just as likely to die
from lightning. Do you worry a great deal about being struck by
lightening??? Do you care how many people a year get burned by hot
water from their heaters?? Go here
http://www.safekids.org/sites/default/files/documents/2013%20Burns%20FINAL_0.pdf

and you see that these safety folks recommend a max water heater temp
of, drum roll please, 120 degrees. You should contact them and advise
then that it's much better to risk scalding and burning people with
nice scalding HOT water then to risk deadly Legionella!!!!! I'm sure
they will thank you for your expert advise on the matter.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 18:39:49 -0700, Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net>

It *is* a risk. A particularly stupid one.

> Out of a country of 350 million people
>there are perhaps 50 a year that die from Legionella, perhaps half a
>dozen of those got it from their personal water heaters. Yes, it's
>REALLY SUCH A HUGE RISK!!!!!

Idiot. Legionella is only one bacteria. There are many dangerous
bacteria that would just love to live in your water heaters.

> Of course, I'm just as likely to die
>from lightning.

No need to fasten your seat belt, either, right?

>Do you worry a great deal about being struck by
>lightening???

If I'm out on a golf course in a lightning storm, yes!!! I tend to
minimize my risks, which is what this is all about.

>Do you care how many people a year get burned by hot
>water from their heaters??

No. I really don't.

> Go here
>http://www.safekids.org/sites/default/files/documents/2013%20Burns%20FINAL_0.pdf

Idiot. Fix the heater. Don't just shift the risk.

>and you see that these safety folks recommend a max water heater temp
>of, drum roll please, 120 degrees.

There are people on the net who will believe all sorts of crap. There
are even lefties on this very group.

> You should contact them and advise
>then that it's much better to risk scalding and burning people with
>nice scalding HOT water then to risk deadly Legionella!!!!! I'm sure
>they will thank you for your expert advise on the matter.

I'm not a lefty. It's not my job to order everyone else around. That
takes a Democrat.

[RobertMacy]

On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 23:43:07 -0700, Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net> wrote:

>>> ...snip....

> Yeah, I've heard that claim yet in 20+ years I've had not a single
> problem. Oh, and I don't drink my hot water.

Even though one does NOT drink the water it can possibly still affect you.
For example, a small 1 inch nicotine patch delivers a tremendous amount of
?? through the skin. So, everytime you shower keep that thought in mind
knowing the shower water is not just hitting one square inch, but instead
is covering your whole body.

...just food for thought.

[jamesgang]

Not much in the way of viruses or bacteria that enter through your skin. You'd make a better case about the accidental ingestion or inhalation of the shower water. Even so statistics don't support much worry about setting a hot water heater at 120.

[RobertMacy]

On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 11:59:06 -0700, jamesgang <james...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>> ....snip....

>> ...just food for thought.
>
> Not much in the way of viruses or bacteria that enter through your
> skin. You'd make a better case about the accidental ingestion or
> inhalation of the shower water. Even so statistics don't support much
> worry about setting a hot water heater at 120.

I wasn't trying to make a case against setting water temp at 120

Just pointing out how 'contaminants' in water could pose a major problem.

Having been scalded [several times] by our hot water [set near max] I'd
like to see code REQUIRE the use of those mechanical faucets that force
the user to be aware that you are now setting the temp of your shower
pretty hot. And prevent a user from accidently bumping the hot/cold
balance way up. I've seen them in hotels and think they're a great idea.

[woodchucker]

we don't need any more govmntl regs to control us.
You must be from californication, where they want everything labeled
that it might kill you.

what's your problem that you want everything to take care of your
stupidity. Why have you been scalded by your hot water?
We have our set just below that point.

Just another idiot requiring someone to force everyone to have this
because they are STUPID!

--
Jeff

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 19:41:20 -0400, woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com>
wrote:

That's not a good solution. Better is a mixing valve after the WH.

>Just another idiot requiring someone to force everyone to have this
>because they are STUPID!

The people are that stupid.

[RobertMacy]

On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:41:20 -0700, woodchucker <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:

>> ...snip...

>
> we don't need any more govmntl regs to control us.
> You must be from californication, where they want everything labeled
> that it might kill you.
>
> what's your problem that you want everything to take care of your
> stupidity. Why have you been scalded by your hot water?
> We have our set just below that point.
>
> Just another idiot requiring someone to force everyone to have this
> because they are STUPID!
>

I didn't say force everyone to have this, I simply suggested making it
code to have this. Which means only needs to be used in 'new' construction.

I'm not after more govt control. Actually, by having code require the
special valves; the special valves become readily available and already
installed. I have not been able to find them so the code enforcement
recuirement is not to satisfy my stupidity, but rather make the valves
more available.

How does one get scalded? How does any stupidly damaging accident happen?
By not paying attention to the potential of that damage. By stupidly
sticking their hand in the stream, not paying attention, etc.

It was nice to have that mental reinforcement of potentially really hot
water, by being forced to do something different than simply turning on
the tap.

[The Daring Dufas]

People must be wary of AK-47 Assault Water Heaters. At some point the
government must outlaw them and go door to door confiscating them. I
refuse to register my Assault Water Heater so they know I have one. ^_^

TDD

[k...@attt.bizz]

Do they even make black water heaters?

[honey...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:35:52 PM UTC-5, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT), jamesgang
>

> <james...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> >On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 2:28:06 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>
> >> On 10/22/2013 11:07 AM, NotMe wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> > <Caulki...@work.com> wrote in message
>
> >>
>
> >> > news:eh1c69tea3itb9btf...@4ax.com...
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
> >>
>

> >> >> By the way, some of the water that did not go into the pail spilled on
>
> >>
>
> >> >> the floor and it left a white coating on the floor after it dried, of
>
> >>
>
> >> >> this calcium. It looks like chalk in many ways.
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >>
>

> >> > An aside: What's the incident of kidney stones and heart problems?
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Be interesting to study. There could easily
>
> >>
>
> >> be a relationship. All that calcium, probably
>
> >>
>
> >> good bones and teeth?
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>

> >> .
>
> >>
>
> >> Christopher A. Young
>
> >>
>
> >> Learn about Jesus
>
> >>
>
> >> www.lds.org
>
> >>
>
> >> .
>
> >
>

> >Hard water is very common in many parts of the us. Particularly rural wells. Our well water is fairly hard. I got a water softener off craigs list but still need to re-plumb to hook it up. You don't want to soften the outside faucets and many people leave the kitchen cold tap off as well for drinking water. Water softeners substitute sodium for the calcium and magnesium in hard water. Too much sodium is bad for people with heart issues. How much sodium ends up in the water depends on how much calcium there was to begin with and how effective the water softener is.
>

> If tou start with very hard water, the softened water will contain no
>
> more than 13mg of sodium in a large glass of water - still very low
>
> sodium. (assuming your softener is working reasonably well)

If the softener replaces the calcium with salt would it be possible for the water heater then fill up with salt? I have been replacing my water heater every 7 years and it is filled up something that resembles salt. I thought I was safe because the heater is after the softener. Any ideas on what to do to prevent this in the future?

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
I am a kidney x-plant patient. I received new kidney in 1996.
Our city water is some what hard being coming from snow in the mtns.
we have softener and counter top RO filtered water tap. We only cook
and drink with this filtered water. Our WH lasts well over 10 years, I
drain them annually, there is no noticeable any thing. Our well water
at cabin is very hard. When we go out there, we haul big bottled water
for consumption. My new kidney is still working normal.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/23/2014 8:33 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
> Hi,
> I am a kidney x-plant patient. I received new kidney in 1996.
> Our city water is some what hard being coming from snow in the mtns.
> we have softener and counter top RO filtered water tap. We only cook
> and drink with this filtered water. Our WH lasts well over 10 years, I
> drain them annually, there is no noticeable any thing. Our well water
> at cabin is very hard. When we go out there, we haul big bottled water
> for consumption. My new kidney is still working normal.
>

Hey, neat! IIRC, you're in Canada. Where do they get
new kidneys? In the US, all we have are used ones.
Glad that's working well, for you.

--

[David Martel]

Honey,

If the softener replaces the calcium with salt would it be possible for the
water heater then fill up with salt? I have been replacing my water heater
every 7 years and it is filled up something that resembles salt. I thought
I was safe because the heater is after the softener. Any ideas on what to
do to prevent this in the future?

NaCl is quite soluble in water whereas CaCl2 is not. It is really
unlikely that your water softener is filling up with NaCl.

Dave M.

[Stormin Mormon]

It's been a couple decades from my chemistry days,
but I remember NaCL is soluble, but not much change
in solubility with temperature rise. CaCL is also
soluble, more so when it's hotter.

CaCO3 is pretty much not soluble.

--

[David Martel]

Stormin is right. It's calcium carbonate that cause a lot of plumbing
problems. CaCl2 is quite sluble.

Dave M.

[jamesp...@gmail.com]

Food grade phosphoric acid would be good.