Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions

[milli...@yahoo.com]

Hi,
I'm planning a wet bar in finishing my basement.
It will have a counter with a sink. No provision for a stove, nor automatic dishwasher.
It will need a greywater pump under the sink because I'm below the main drain.
Not clear on what NEC directs for circuits and wiring.
I believe this qualifies as a "similar area" to a kitchen (as specified in the NEC), so I know GFCI's required every 2ft. on the counter.

1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more?
2. Does it depend on the length of the countertop?
3. Do I need a dedicated circuit just for that pump under the sink? (the models I see at HomeDepot draw 8amps, if that makes any difference).
4. Anything else I should watch out for?

Thanks for your input.
Theodore.

[Don Y]

On 10/4/2015 10:33 PM, milli...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm planning a wet bar in finishing my basement.
> It will have a counter with a sink. No provision for a stove, nor automatic dishwasher.
> It will need a greywater pump under the sink because I'm below the main drain.

Will this *be* greywater?

> Not clear on what NEC directs for circuits and wiring.
> I believe this qualifies as a "similar area" to a kitchen (as specified in the NEC), so I know GFCI's required every 2ft. on the counter.

Hmmm... I'm not sure of that. Are you using it for food preparation?

Imagine having a sink near your washing machine (we had one growing up).
Imagine a counter there to fold clothes. It's not really similar to
a kitchen -- except that it has a counter and a sink (but so does
a bathroom!).

> 1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more?

See above. I don't think it owuld be treated as a kitchen/food prep area.
As such, you might be able to share the circuit in ways that are not
allowed in a kitchen.

First question you should ask is what do you *envision* your needs there
to be? Will you have an electric frying pan roasting up cocktail weenies
to serve to your buddies congregating there? Will you be using a
portable electric grinder to trim ceramic bowls that you're throwing on
a wheel and firing? etc.

> 2. Does it depend on the length of the countertop?

Kitchen requirement doesn't care about counter length.

> 3. Do I need a dedicated circuit just for that pump under the sink?
> (the models I see at HomeDepot draw 8amps, if that makes any difference).

One way of looking at this is to consider the consequences of
something *else* on that circuit tripping the breaker. I.e.,
now your pump is inoperative. What are the consequences?
Would you want a battery backed pump?

> 4. Anything else I should watch out for?

No outlets with 12" of water. Any outlets within 6' of sink
must be GFCI. Outlet to service any portion of counter
exceeding 24".

<shrug> Just off top of my head. Code book is your friend!

[gfre...@aol.com]

This is not a kitchen so the only rule you have to follow is the GFCI
within 6' of the sink.
There is not even a requirement that you have a receptacle but that is
your design choice. If this is finished space you still have the
requirement for general lighting circuits so you need receptacles
along any wall segment more than 2' spaced so you are within 6' of a
receptacle without crossing a doorway or similar obstacle. Counter
receptacles do not count for this requirement.

You could share an 8 amp pump with ther counter or wall receptacles if
you want. (less than half the rating of the circuit). Again that is a
design choice.
If I was going to share it, I would share it with the lights so you
knew right away it tripped. Put the receptacles on another circuit.

[bob haller]

if space is available in your main panel, be generous with our wiring.

one day your needs wants may change, your better off overbuilding

[milli...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:18:39 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

> Will this *be* greywater?
No garbage disposal unit planned. And I'm not preparing food, but possible some dope might rinse their plate in this sink on Thanksgiving instead of bringing it upstairs. More conservative answer is yes, it's greywater. Does that change approach?

> Hmmm... I'm not sure of that. Are you using it for food preparation?

Well, probably not. I will have no stove or cooktop in the basement. I would use it just to wash something instead of hauling it upstairs to the kitchen.

> Imagine having a sink near your washing machine (we had one growing up).
> Imagine a counter there to fold clothes. It's not really similar to
> a kitchen -- except that it has a counter and a sink (but so does
> a bathroom!).

True. It'll have a counter with cabinets beneath and maybe above too.

> > 1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more?
>
> See above. I don't think it owuld be treated as a kitchen/food prep area.
> As such, you might be able to share the circuit in ways that are not
> allowed in a kitchen.


> First question you should ask is what do you *envision* your needs there
> to be? Will you have an electric frying pan roasting up cocktail weenies
> to serve to your buddies congregating there? Will you be using a
> portable electric grinder to trim ceramic bowls that you're throwing on
> a wheel and firing? etc.

No... I've no exhaust fan either. I, personally, would not be preparing food in the basement.

> One way of looking at this is to consider the consequences of
> something *else* on that circuit tripping the breaker. I.e.,
> now your pump is inoperative. What are the consequences?
> Would you want a battery backed pump?

I thought the NEC mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. Is that correct? If so, to me, a sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. If so, does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? (Please correct me if I'm wrong).

Thanks for all other comments!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 22:33:33 -0700 (PDT), milli...@yahoo.com wrote:

Don't know about code in your area, but here each countertop
receptacle has to be either a 20amp dedicated or a split15. Split15
gets expensive because you need a 2 pole GFCI breaker for each outlet,
where you only need a 20 amp GFCI outlet for each using 20 amp
circuits. I would put the pump on a separate 15 amp circuit.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), milli...@yahoo.com wrote:

>My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC?

That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements
with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the
sink.

[gfre...@aol.com]

Even in Canada, that only applies to kitchens and since there is no
permanently installed cooking equipment, it isn't a kitchen.

[DerbyDad03]

Well, a sump pump only runs when you are "running water" in the sump. ;-)

I say that somewhat facetiously, but is there really a difference? Both
pumps are automatic in that they only run when they need to move water
and both the sink and the sump could cause flooding if the pump didn't
run.

Why wouldn't they be treated the same as far as requiring a dedicated
circuit? Just curious.

[gfre...@aol.com]

It is a totally different function. The sump pump runs whenever water
starts building up in the sump, from rain or ground water. You may not
be there to be sure it is running.
The sink pump only runs when you are there running water and it would
be pretty apparent that it was not leaving the sink.

Actually I am curious where the requirement that a sump pump be on an
individual circuit is.
I have never seen it. I just scanned the 2014 and I didn't see it and
I know it wasn't in the 08 and I don't see it in the 11 analysis of
changes.
We won't be on the 14 here for 3 years or so. We just adopted the 11.

[Don Y]

On 10/5/2015 6:18 AM, milli...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:18:39 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>
>> Will this *be* greywater?
> No garbage disposal unit planned. And I'm not preparing food, but possible
> some dope might rinse their plate in this sink on Thanksgiving instead of
> bringing it upstairs. More conservative answer is yes, it's greywater.
> Does that change approach?

My question pertained to whether or not you were going to route it into
the sanitary sewer. "Greywater" can usually be disposed of on your
property (e.g., irrigation). But, it must *truly* be greywater (in
the code's definition of same)

>> Hmmm... I'm not sure of that. Are you using it for food preparation?

> Well, probably not. I will have no stove or cooktop in the basement. I
> would use it just to wash something instead of hauling it upstairs to the
> kitchen.

My question was semi rhetorical. If you're not preparing food,
then it's less likely "like a kitchen". I.e., it could be more
like a *bathroom* or a "laundry room" (see my point?). So,
the invariant issues are GFCI's and proximity to water.

>> Imagine having a sink near your washing machine (we had one growing up).
>> Imagine a counter there to fold clothes. It's not really similar to a
>> kitchen -- except that it has a counter and a sink (but so does a
>> bathroom!).

> True. It'll have a counter with cabinets beneath and maybe above too.
>

>>> 1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I
>>> need more?
>>
>> See above. I don't think it owuld be treated as a kitchen/food prep
>> area. As such, you might be able to share the circuit in ways that are
>> not allowed in a kitchen.
>
>> First question you should ask is what do you *envision* your needs there
>> to be? Will you have an electric frying pan roasting up cocktail weenies
>> to serve to your buddies congregating there? Will you be using a portable
>> electric grinder to trim ceramic bowls that you're throwing on a wheel and
>> firing? etc.

> No... I've no exhaust fan either. I, personally, would not be preparing
> food in the basement.

OK, so it's not used *like* a kitchen. But, how do you *want* to use
it (forget the Code issues)? E.g., if you want to have a wet saw
draining into the sink, you probably want power for the wet saw nearby
(silly example). If you want to make popcorn, you'll want to be
able to set the popcorn popper on the counter (and have power
available). The size of your counter will determine how much stuff
you can set on it and where (in relation to the sink). Having just
12" on either side of the sink will pretty much screw you wrt outlets
(which need to be 12" from water).

>> One way of looking at this is to consider the consequences of something
>> *else* on that circuit tripping the breaker. I.e., now your pump is
>> inoperative. What are the consequences? Would you want a battery backed
>> pump?

> My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a
> dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system
> in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the
> NEC?

Dunno. My sister had a similar arrangement. Basement was below the sewer
line. Yet, they installed a toilet, shower, etc. Let everything drain
downward -- then a sump pushed it back up overhead. Never a danger of the
sump filling from rain/runoff as they were on the high side of a hill.
But, if the water was running in shower, toilet, sink, etc. the pump had to
be reliable -- no way to "inhibit" the flow of water *into* the sink if
the pump failed!

[BTW, a dedicated circuit means exactly that! I.e., you can't even use a
duplex *receptacle* on the load end!]

[Uncle Monster]

Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:51:04 -0700, Don Y
<blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

>Having just
>12" on either side of the sink will pretty much screw you wrt outlets
>(which need to be 12" from water).

Where is that in the code?

[gfre...@aol.com]

The only way a sump pump does not to need to be on a GFCI is if it is
in finished space or hard wired. I suppose you could use a 240v sump
pump.
Unfinished basements, utility rooms etc require GFCI everywhere (on 15
and 20a 120v receptacles). The exception for sump pumps went away a
long time ago.

[bob haller]

why the fixation on doing the absoute least?

log term your better off doing more, and having a much better and more flexible intstall/

i have run extra romex to dead end work boxes to be used in the future.

done while the cielings and walls are open it just so much easier.

plus when you decide to add someting like a fridge to keep pop cool your not already maxed out

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT), bob haller <hal...@aol.com>
wrote:

If you really want to keep your options open, use smurf tube. Then you
can pull in different wire and if you run extra smurf you have the
opportunity to install all sorts of stuff.

I ran it in my new addition
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/addition/smurf_job.jpg

All of the boxes terminate in a central location so I can change what
any switch controls, among other things. I have already changed 2.
I can also add wires if I need them since it is all 3/4" tube.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/addition/J%20box.jpg

The wire cost is probably twice what Romex would be but that is pretty
insignificant in the total cost of the project.

[Ted]

I've heard that also and I would argue that there is no such thing as a
nuisance trip.

A properly functioning GFCI trips because there is current leaking.
Current leaking in a sump full of water is a fairly dangerous situation.
Seems to me the proper thing to do is repair/replace the sump pump.

Not to mention that current flowing to ground in your sump pit is
metered electricity.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

No. it's not a kitchen, and there is no "permanently installed"
cooking equipment. But get a party goi g with 2 coffee-makers, a hot
plate, a crock pot, and an electric frying pan and you will want a few
20 amp circuits, or even more 15s.

Not a code requirement - but if I were putting in a "wet bar" in a rec
room or party room, I'd make sure I had enough juice available!!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 13:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
<uncl...@gmail.com> wrote:

IF it is on a "dedicated line" the GFCI is not required (or desired)

[milli...@yahoo.com]

Ok, so sounds like you all are saying:

1. all outlets on counter of wet bar and within 6ft of sink need to be GFCI protected.
2. This circuit for these outlets can be shared, no requirement for dedicated 20amp line just to counter outlets (as would be the case if it were a kitchen). But if I do decide to share, it's WISE to include sufficient capacity for a nearby fridge and/or blender or toaster oven or microwave at this location.
3. Dedicated circuit for under-sink pump, with GFCI outlet.

Any other input or comments?

[gfre...@aol.com]

That will work although the pump really does not need to be on a
dedicated line. Just remember to take it easy with whatever else is on
there.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

Well, hopefully you're smart enough to a) turn the water off before you
leave the sink, b) turn the water off when you see the sink about to
overflow, because the breaker for the pump tripped and nothing is
draining.

No one is watching when the sump fills, and if the breaker is tripped by
another device, the pump will just sit t here while t he basement flods.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT), bob haller

<hal...@aol.com> wrote:

>why the fixation on doing the absoute least?
>
>log term your better off doing more, and having a much better and more flexible intstall/
>
>i have run extra romex to dead end work boxes to be used in the future.
>
>done while the cielings and walls are open it just so much easier.

So you're into doing the least also. You just calculate the least with
more foresight!! ;-)

>plus when you decide to add someting like a fridge to keep pop cool your not already maxed out

See above.

[Uncle Monster]

I was working in the electrical business when ground fault breakers first arrived on the scene for consumers. CB radios were tripping the breakers and voltage surges or nearby lighting strikes would often trip them. I imagine a modern ground fault interrupter has some smarts and is much more reliable than the first generation. Everything has a microprocessor in it these days and I imagine a modern ground fault breaker or receptacle could have one too. Here's a 10 year old article on the subject of microprocessors used in circuit breakers. ^_^

http://www.lntebg.com/news/upload/currenttrends/1995Jan-Mar.pdf

[8~{} Uncle Fault Monster

[gfre...@aol.com]

A lot of electronics will actually have a low current line to ground
fault through RF filters. I have an old TV that will trip a GFCI every
time if the RF connector is hooked to a "TV out" card in a PC.

[trader_4]

You have a code cite for that? AFAIK, there is no such exception for
a sump pump in a basement. EVERY receptacle has to be on a GFCI. Are
you just making stuff up again?

[Don Y]

On 10/6/2015 6:38 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> A lot of electronics will actually have a low current line to ground
> fault through RF filters. I have an old TV that will trip a GFCI every
> time if the RF connector is hooked to a "TV out" card in a PC.

I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with
GFCI trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher
circuit to GFCI (as called for in the new code) for fear that
I'll be running outside to reset breakers often.

IMO, there's still too much BFM involved in GFCI's. Despite
being "simple" (in theory), *practice* seems to yield very
different results!

The "back yard" circuit, here, still needs my attention as it
trips randomly and pretty regularly despite all the outlets
being (environmentally) "protected".

[I half suspect I'll find an insect to be the cause or something
equally unexpected!]

[Uncle Monster]

I had a big 19" rack mount multi output adjustable power supply of the type used in electronics service/development work and it would always trip a ground fault receptacle. I'm not sure where the voltage to ground was but I believe it had to do with the way the power supply was designed to filter electrical noise out of the DC outputs. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Noisy Monster

[Uncle Monster]

Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have to find it again to post a link. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster

[Don Y]

On 10/6/2015 8:20 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:

>> I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with GFCI
>> trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher circuit to GFCI (as
>> called for in the new code) for fear that I'll be running outside to reset
>> breakers often.

> Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water
> or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault
> receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing
> machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have
> to find it again to post a link. ^_^

2014 code:
210.8(D): "GFCI protection shall be required for outlets that supply
dishwashers..."

Of course, the power cords for many dishwashers aren't accessible
when the washer is in use. So, a GFCI *outlet* (receptacle) is
out of the question (also, GFCI outlets tend to be duplex).
So, this translates to a GFCI *breaker* for the dishwasher.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 01:03:56 -0400, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

The "sump" is below the drain level, and can overflow before the
sink backs up - at least on many laundry pumps I've seen. They have a
small "tank" that fills to a particular level before the ejector pump
starts. If the pump doesn't start the tank fills to the top - and SOME
will leak when this happens - making a mess.

[gfre...@aol.com]

You are going to have to set the way back machine to the Reagan
administration to find all of those exceptions.
Virtually every exception to the GFCI rule is gone now and if it isn't
GFCI it will have to be AFCI which has 30ma level GF protection.

The only exception I know of is for ice melting equipment that is not
in a readily accessible location.

Since the OP seems to be talking about a finished basement the GFCI
would only be required within 6' from the sink but he probably needs
AFCIs since this became something similar to a family room.
The sink area probably needs both.

[gfre...@aol.com]

There is nothing to say it can't be a duplex but they also make a dead
front GFCI device that fits in a regular device box like the
receptacle but has no receptacles. You would put this in an accessible
place up stream of an appliance with a plug in a place that was not
accessible without pulling out the appliance.
In exterior locations, these are handy because it can be under a water
tight snap cover instead of those code mandated "bee condos" the code
requires for receptacles.

For the reason you mentioned (a long walk to reset it) the device
style GFCI in the area it will be used is usually a better design
choice.

[Don Y]

On 10/6/2015 9:51 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 08:34:23 -0700, Don Y
> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 10/6/2015 8:20 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
>>
>>>> I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with GFCI
>>>> trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher circuit to GFCI (as
>>>> called for in the new code) for fear that I'll be running outside to reset
>>>> breakers often.
>>
>>> Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water
>>> or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault
>>> receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing
>>> machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have
>>> to find it again to post a link. ^_^
>>
>> 2014 code:
>> 210.8(D): "GFCI protection shall be required for outlets that supply
>> dishwashers..."
>>
>> Of course, the power cords for many dishwashers aren't accessible
>> when the washer is in use. So, a GFCI *outlet* (receptacle) is
>> out of the question (also, GFCI outlets tend to be duplex).
>> So, this translates to a GFCI *breaker* for the dishwasher.
>
> There is nothing to say it can't be a duplex but they also make a dead

My undestanding of "dedicated" circuits is that it can't be possible
to plug anything *else* into the circuit alongside the "dedicated"
appliance.

E.g., our dishwasher, refrigerator, furnace, etc. all have "single
outlet" receptacles. Even the condensate pump in the furnace ties
into the furnaces "plug" instead of having it's own (which would be
much more sensible given that the pump resides outside the furnace).

> front GFCI device that fits in a regular device box like the
> receptacle but has no receptacles. You would put this in an accessible
> place up stream of an appliance with a plug in a place that was not
> accessible without pulling out the appliance.
> In exterior locations, these are handy because it can be under a water
> tight snap cover instead of those code mandated "bee condos" the code
> requires for receptacles.

What's the value of an outdoor receptacle that has no receptacles? :>
IME, most folks have very few outdoor receptacles.

When we moved in, here, there was one GFCI circuit. It handled the
outlets in the two bathrooms, the outlet in the garage, the outlet
on the front porch and the outlet on the side porch. (i.e., nothing
in the kitchen!)

There are now five or six outlets along the back of the house
(I think 4 on the porch, alone -- no need for cords to cross
the doorway!). Bathrooms have a shared circuit. Two for
counters. Another for garage, etc.

> For the reason you mentioned (a long walk to reset it) the device
> style GFCI in the area it will be used is usually a better design
> choice.

A GFCI shouldn't be tripping. The same should be true of a breaker.
If you need for it to be "convenient" to reset, then you're doing something
wrong. If its that easy to "undo" it's initial attempt at protection,
you're more likely to blindly "reset" it -- only bothering to try
to understand "why" when it trips AGAIN.

[trader_4]

They can do that, but AFAIK, there is no NEC code requirement that
the fridge and DW be on dedicated circuits or that they utilize
single receptacles.

Aa far as the furnace being on a cord plugged into a receptacle,
that is a NEC violation, unless you have some furnace that came
with a cord and plug, which I highly doubt exists and the furnace
requires it for maintenance. Some inspectors in some areas are
OK with it though.

> Even the condensate pump in the furnace ties
> into the furnaces "plug" instead of having it's own (which would be
> much more sensible given that the pump resides outside the furnace).

People can wire things all kinds of strange ways, doesn't mean
that code requires it or that it's right.

[gfre...@aol.com]

That is why I suggested putting it on the circuit with the light.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 10:32:16 -0700, Don Y

As long as the fixed in place equipment does not draw more than 50% of
the ampacity of the circuit it can have receptacles on it.

>> front GFCI device that fits in a regular device box like the
>> receptacle but has no receptacles. You would put this in an accessible
>> place up stream of an appliance with a plug in a place that was not
>> accessible without pulling out the appliance.
>> In exterior locations, these are handy because it can be under a water
>> tight snap cover instead of those code mandated "bee condos" the code
>> requires for receptacles.
>
>What's the value of an outdoor receptacle that has no receptacles? :>
>IME, most folks have very few outdoor receptacles.
>

You have the receptacles down stream from the dead front GFCI. Then
the GFCI can have a snap cover and the receptacles still have those
useless "in use" covers.
I prefer to have a GFCI inside feeding the outside receptacles but the
dead front is another option.

>When we moved in, here, there was one GFCI circuit. It handled the
>outlets in the two bathrooms, the outlet in the garage, the outlet
>on the front porch and the outlet on the side porch. (i.e., nothing
>in the kitchen!)
>
>There are now five or six outlets along the back of the house
>(I think 4 on the porch, alone -- no need for cords to cross
>the doorway!). Bathrooms have a shared circuit. Two for
>counters. Another for garage, etc.
>

They fixed that around the 1990 when it was required that the bathroom
circuits have no other outlets.

>> For the reason you mentioned (a long walk to reset it) the device
>> style GFCI in the area it will be used is usually a better design
>> choice.
>
>A GFCI shouldn't be tripping. The same should be true of a breaker.
>If you need for it to be "convenient" to reset, then you're doing something
>wrong. If its that easy to "undo" it's initial attempt at protection,
>you're more likely to blindly "reset" it -- only bothering to try
>to understand "why" when it trips AGAIN.
>

You are also supposed to test them once a month according to the
lawyers who signed off on them ;-)

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 10:58:16 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:

>> My undestanding of "dedicated" circuits is that it can't be possible
>> to plug anything *else* into the circuit alongside the "dedicated"
>> appliance.
>>
>> E.g., our dishwasher, refrigerator, furnace, etc. all have "single
>> outlet" receptacles.
>
>They can do that, but AFAIK, there is no NEC code requirement that
>the fridge and DW be on dedicated circuits or that they utilize
>single receptacles.
>
>Aa far as the furnace being on a cord plugged into a receptacle,
>that is a NEC violation, unless you have some furnace that came
>with a cord and plug, which I highly doubt exists and the furnace
>requires it for maintenance. Some inspectors in some areas are
>OK with it though.

The guys I know are about 50:50 with these things being "cord and
plug". The ones who are OK with it still want it done right. That
means no romex jammed into a plug, use a real hard service cord and
use the proper cord connectors, not romex clamps..

I do understand that if you are keeping your house from freezing with
a portable generator, it is better to use cords than to be back
feeding the dryer receptacle with a suicide plug.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 06 Oct 2015 16:56:30 -0400,

Still, he will likely notice that it's not making any noise, and he'll
be there to see the water on the floor before it floods the whole
basement. Before he leaves he'll turn off the water and only a little
more will come out.

>That is why I suggested putting it on the circuit with the light.

That too.

[Uncle Monster]

I haven't been in a code book for a while or can't remember the last time I looked it up on The Interweb. I read the recommendation on a site with information about ground fault receptacles. Perhaps there are two opinions with the code book winning out. I found the link. The paragraph is second to the last. The article could be based on old information but years ago, I had properly operating equipment that would trip a ground fault receptacle. ^_^

http://www.homelectrical.com/what-gfci-outlet.6.html

[8~{} Uncle Shock Monster

[Uncle Monster]

It's funny that the last time I installed a butt load of ground fault receptacles was back during the Reagan administration or shortly thereafter. It was before AFC's came on the market. I came across a 10 year old article that was discussing the use of microprocessors in circuit breakers to provide overload, arc fault and ground fault protection in the same breaker. I imagine that what's in a lot of breakers these days. I'm off to do some more research. I always try to ask you because you're more immersed in the NEC than I am. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster

[Uncle Monster]

The blank front GFCI is mentioned on this site. The same one that I saw the no GFCI on a refrigerator or washer. ^_^

http://www.homelectrical.com/what-gfci-outlet.6.html

[8~{} Uncle Outlet Monster

[gfre...@aol.com]

It is one of those urban legends that simply will not die. There is no
reason why a properly operating fridge, pump or washing machine would
trip a GFCI
My beer fridge, out by the pool, has been on a GFCI for 30 years.
If it starts tripping the GFCI, I get a new one.
When I actually analysed why it was tripping, it turns out to be an
internal short in the compressor, verified by a current probe, on a
scope, looking at the ground wire.
That is also why you get that burnt smell from the freon when you open
one up.

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 17:03:11 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
<uncl...@gmail.com> wrote:


>>
>> You are going to have to set the way back machine to the Reagan
>> administration to find all of those exceptions.
>> Virtually every exception to the GFCI rule is gone now and if it isn't
>> GFCI it will have to be AFCI which has 30ma level GF protection.
>>
>> The only exception I know of is for ice melting equipment that is not
>> in a readily accessible location.
>>
>> Since the OP seems to be talking about a finished basement the GFCI
>> would only be required within 6' from the sink but he probably needs
>> AFCIs since this became something similar to a family room.
>> The sink area probably needs both.
>
>It's funny that the last time I installed a butt load of ground fault receptacles was back during the Reagan administration or shortly thereafter. It was before AFC's came on the market. I came across a 10 year old article that was discussing the use of microprocessors in circuit breakers to provide overload, arc fault and ground fault protection in the same breaker. I imagine that what's in a lot of breakers these days. I'm off to do some more research. I always try to ask you because you're more immersed in the NEC than I am. ^_^
>
>[8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster

One of my neighbors was an engineer on the Cuttler Hammer team that
invented the AFCI and got it into the 1999 code to be implemented in
2002.
That does have a microprocessor.
The GFCI is a lot simpler.
There is a chip in there but I imagine it is just an op amp looking at
the current in the buck wound coil.
This is a fairly recent Square D.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/gfci.jpg

[gfre...@aol.com]

There is no code exception for any of those in a place that requires
GFCI although you can get away with it in the kitchen, as long as the
fridge is more than 6' from the sink.

[Tekkie®]

gfre...@aol.com posted for all of us...

> That is also why you get that burnt smell from the freon when you open
> one up.
>

Shh ,if one were to know this we would have turn that person into the EPA.

--
Tekkie

[Uncle Monster]

I noticed the bimetal overload sensor is still there. It looks to have a lower parts count than the older ones I've opened up. I'm guessing that the op amp and semiconductor switch are all in one package now. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Overload Monster

[Uncle Monster]

One of the first things I did when servicing HVAC systems was to get a little whiff of the refrigerant from the low side. I have the no leak connectors on the hoses for my gauges and I would get a bit of gas in the hose, disconnect it then crack the low side valve to let the gas out the vacuum hose so I could check the smell. If the whiff of gas burned the hair out of my nostrils, I knew the compressor was burned out. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Gas Monster

[Uncle Monster]

When was the last time you heard of the EPA going after an HVAC tech for letting some cute little ozone killing Freon escape into the atmosphere. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Ozone Monster

[gfre...@aol.com]

There is still a little T-092 device in there that looks like a
regular silicon transistor to drive the coil.
The "overload/overcurrent" part is pretty much the same as all the
other SqD breakers

[gfre...@aol.com]

I think the whole thing was blown out of proportion. I know they say
that since the freon ban, ozone has recovered but they ignore the fact
that it was only banned in 1st world countries. Most of latin america
and the far east kept on grinding it out and you can bet your ass that
they were not capturing and recycling it.
China built about a billion refrigerators after the ban with R12 in
them

[Uncle Monster]

Crap! I looked at the picture again and it's right there. My excuse is I was tired and I really did just wake up from another sleep session. I only sleep two hours at a time anyway before Mr.Bladder wakes me demanding to be drained. Oh yea, it's actually a TO-92 packaged device. T-092 is a transmission, a character from Resident Evil or probably a Russian armored vehicle. I noticed 2 DIP packaged devices, if I'm seeing correctly. It looks like an IC or bridge rectifier to the left of the TO-92 device. You write that it's a recent Square D breaker and I'm surprised that all the electronics are through the hole devices. Most of the new stuff I come across is SMD with few through the hole devices. I haven't done that much SMD circuit build/repair but through the hole soldering was my forte. I still have my bulletproof Weller WTCPN soldering station that I bought new in 1973 but I lost my vacuum desoldering station during a move dammit. Is that opened breaker in your collection or is it just a picture in your collection of images? I'd be interested in the numbers on the TO-92 device to ascertain if it's a transistor, SCR or triac. The numbers on the DIP chip/s would be interesting too. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle DIP Monster

[gfre...@aol.com]

I am not sure of the manufacture date

[Uncle Monster]

I can usually decipher the date from the numbers on the chips. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Date Monster

[Tekkie®]

Uncle Monster posted for all of us...

They are too busy trying to clean up their latest mess in the river. (Which
we will pay for) I don't think they have gone after anybody, but then I
don't follow their idiocy. The usual suspect would be Stumpy.

Thanks for sharing your shortcut for a quick analysis. Something that will
get filed in my brain (if I had one). Might be useful in another context.
Think Stumpy would take note? I think the only set of hoses he has are
faucet and garden.

How is the taste?

--
Tekkie