How to remove stubborn 1/2 inch compression ring holding undersink dishwasher shutoff valve on copper pipe?

[Arlen Holder]

Bosch SHX36L05UC/21 dishwasher hinge broke at the white nylon plastic.
<https://i.postimg.cc/yx3VpFC6/hinge01.jpg>

Tried to shut off hot water under the sink before removing the hoses.
<https://i.postimg.cc/hGVZsvYF/faucet00.jpg>

Hotwater pipe is 1/2 inch copper pipe sticking out of wall under sink.
Undersink dual shutoff to the hotwater faucet + dishwasher is frozen open.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zQC3nC2/faucet01.jpg>

Bought a ball type dual shutoff valve BrassCraft KTCR1901DVX R1.
Also bought the Husky Faucet handle sleeve puller 1003 099 614.
<https://i.postimg.cc/1zy3RnwM/faucet02.jpg>

Still can't get the stubborn 1/2 inch copper ring off the copper pipe.
<https://i.postimg.cc/25T81kxY/faucet03.jpg>

At the end of the puller's travel, the compression ring is still stuck!
<https://i.postimg.cc/nzzV7ydD/faucet04.jpg>

Any ideas?

[hub...@ccanoemail.ca]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

< snipped useless links >

I suggest you use a free photo-posting web site that isn't
completely loaded with junk-bloat-cartoon-porn ...
.. life is too short.

If you can't smooth-off the pipe with some emery cloth -
- the compression rings are made of fairly soft metal -
- try cutting it off with nippers ?
John T.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 7:43:35 AM UTC-5, hub...@ccanoemail.ca wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
> <arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:
>
> < snipped useless links >
>
> I suggest you use a free photo-posting web site that isn't
> completely loaded with junk-bloat-cartoon-porn ...
> .. life is too short.

Pictures wouldn't load here either.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC), Arlen

Holder <arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

>
>At the end of the puller's travel, the compression ring is still stuck!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nzzV7ydD/faucet04.jpg>

All of the images worked for me.

I don't think it's a compression ring. I think it's part of the pipe
that been enlarged.

Everything looks different from where I live. Where do you live?

Don't knock yourself out. Just replace the washers in the original
valve, if you can, and replace the original double valve. If you ever
have to turn off the water again and either half of the valve doesn't
work well enough, you can do what you did this time.

["\"Re...@home.com]

It looks like a ring to me. I would try cutting the ring with a
Dremel-type tool.

Similar to cutting off a wedding ring that won't slide off.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:19:42 -0500,

Maybe you're right. Still, there's not going to be much pipe left if he
cuts it off. What has he bought to replace what was there?

["\"Re...@home.com]

Use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut the ring only, sideways, not the pipe.

Have you never seen a ring cut off of a finger ?

One of the pics show the new dual outlet ball valve to replace the old
dual valve. Both use compression fittings for the pipe.

[Thomas]

If you cut it off you will not get a new one to work. Can you use what is there?
Can you re plumb from the other side?

[gfre...@aol.com]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

It is probably too late because you have been screwing with it and
buggered it up by now but you usually leave the old ring and
compression nut there and screw on the new valve using the old ring
and nut. You are pretty much down to cutting the pipe off at the ring
and hoping there is still enough to take a new ring.

[dpb]

First, altho as gretwell said in other response w/ broken link so not in
thread, once he's mucked on it to the point has it probably won't seal
again, the real plan was to have left the compression ring in place and
just replace the valve with the new one.

Might as well try that still and see if it will hold. If get luck, done.

If not, can next attempt to cut off the ring and go for it with new one
but that's likely not going to work, either, because the compression
ring has deformed the pipe by shrinking OD where it is and a little
enlargement where it isn't--which is why they won't slide off.

The feed line is possibly M instead of L which exacerbates the problem
because the thinner wall deforms more easily.

Next after those options is to cut at the ring and if there's enough
length can get by by just using what is left; better option there would
be to use a sleeve and a short extension of hard copper.

Last resort is to open the cabinet back or, if is against interior wall
w/ access behind, open up the wall on the other side and go back to the
elbow there.

--

[dpb]

On 2/27/2020 11:57 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
> <arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

...

>> Still can't get the stubborn 1/2 inch copper ring off the copper pipe.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/25T81kxY/faucet03.jpg>
>>
>> At the end of the puller's travel, the compression ring is still stuck!
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/nzzV7ydD/faucet04.jpg>
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
> It is probably too late because you have been screwing with it and
> buggered it up by now but you usually leave the old ring and
> compression nut there and screw on the new valve using the old ring
> and nut. You are pretty much down to cutting the pipe off at the ring
> and hoping there is still enough to take a new ring.

Agree w/ gfretwell's likely assessment (see another posting) but the
puller arms are way too long for the application.

It's not likely you'll be successful in pulling the ring anyway if it
doesn't move readily after a little pressure as that indicates the pipe
is significantly deformed.

See the other for the full sequence of options I see, but the first is
to just hope you've not screwed up the present one too badly and just
reuse it. Unfortunately, at this point that's likely going to leak
because have bunged up the ring so it won't seal...

--

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:40:37 -0500,

"\"Retired"@home.com wrote:

>On 2/27/20 12:34 PM, micky wrote:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:19:42 -0500,
>> "\"Retired"@home.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/27/20 12:12 PM, micky wrote:
>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC), Arlen
>>>> Holder <arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At the end of the puller's travel, the compression ring is still stuck!
>>>>> <https://i.postimg.cc/nzzV7ydD/faucet04.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> All of the images worked for me.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it's a compression ring. I think it's part of the pipe
>>>> that been enlarged.
>>>>
>>>> Everything looks different from where I live. Where do you live?
>>>>
>>>> Don't knock yourself out. Just replace the washers in the original
>>>> valve, if you can, and replace the original double valve. If you ever
>>>> have to turn off the water again and either half of the valve doesn't
>>>> work well enough, you can do what you did this time.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It looks like a ring to me. I would try cutting the ring with a
>>> Dremel-type tool.
>>
>> Maybe you're right. Still, there's not going to be much pipe left if he
>> cuts it off. What has he bought to replace what was there?
>>
>>> Similar to cutting off a wedding ring that won't slide off.
>>
>>
>>
>Use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut the ring only, sideways, not the pipe.

That is what you said. I guess I had things on my mind.

>Have you never seen a ring cut off of a finger ?

Actually, no!

> One of the pics show the new dual outlet ball valve to replace the old
>dual valve.

So it does. In fact the new one seems to me to be enough like the old
one, so now I'm back ALMOST to my original recomendation: Leave the nut
the way it is and just attach the new valve to the old nut.

I would have said that in the very first place -- no point to changing
the nut =- and afaict it's not to late for that.

IIUC DPB thinks that won't work but gfretwell and Thomas think it's too
late to get rid of the compression ring.

Using the old nut and new valve is certainly the next thing I would try.
Even if the shape has been changed by his mucking around, won't
tightening the valve on change the shape back to what it should be?

[dpb]

On 2/27/2020 1:50 PM, micky wrote:
...

> IIUC DPB thinks that won't work but gfretwell and Thomas think it's too
> late to get rid of the compression ring.
>
> Using the old nut and new valve is certainly the next thing I would try.
> Even if the shape has been changed by his mucking around, won't
> tightening the valve on change the shape back to what it should be?

...

The likely problem is by pulling against the edge with the puller it
will have created ridge or scratched the compression ring to the point
it will not seal water tight any longer.

As said, it's certainly the first thing to try and if hasn't been TOO
rough on it, it might just work; I'd just not put very high odds on it
at this point.

If had just taken the nut loose, and swapped in new valve body before
trying so hard to get the old one off, odds are very much in favor.

Now, my best guess is "not so much!". But, again, yes, it's the first
thing to try and hope for.

Coating the outside of the ring with a little grease (vaseline works
well and is often around the house) before putting back together can
work to fill just a tiny little scratch or two and keep from leaking if
it isn't really badly deformed or scratched deeply.

--

[Justin Case]

Just in case:

https://www.sharkbite.com/products/dual-outlet-angle-stop

[Clare Snyder]

Good lord. it's Arlen Holder the engineer agAIN!!!!

[Clare Snyder]

He'll have totally mucked things up, for sure, by now.

[gfre...@aol.com]

That was my next suggestion.
Cut off the pipe, open up the hole in the drywall a little, CLEAN THE
PIPE and shove on a Sharkbite.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:57:39 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> It is probably too late because you have been screwing with it and
> buggered it up by now but you usually leave the old ring and
> compression nut there and screw on the new valve using the old ring
> and nut. You are pretty much down to cutting the pipe off at the ring
> and hoping there is still enough to take a new ring.

SOLVED:

Thank you gfretwell for being one of the rare posters to this home-repair
newsgroup who acts like an adult, and who is therefore purposefully helpful
by supplying on-topic suggestions and comments (all of which I agree with).

The number of childish worthless posts in this thread alone is sad in and
of itself, where your post is refreshingly that of an adult.

As I always report back promptly, I solved the problem today using a method
I found in YouTube but where, in hindsight, I DEFINITELY would have just
left the old nut and compression ring on and re-used it with the new valve,
as you and others suggested.
<https://i.postimg.cc/j5CbgrBV/faucet08.jpg>

This was my first compression fitting, where the lesson learned is that
there are three fundamental options, preferably in this order:
a. Re-use the old compression fitting & nut
b. Pull the old compression fitting off & use all new parts
c. Cut the old compression fitting off, taking care not to damage the pipe

These methods are all shown in this excellent video below:
<https://youtu.be/26tpjTjl6dc?t=28>

As you and I are both purposefully helpful and we stay on topic and provide
detailed technical responses, I provide detailed snapshots so that others
may learn from the results, as I have learned that your advice is good.
<https://i.postimg.cc/vBjdCNd4/faucet09.jpg>

On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:38:45 -0600, dpb wrote:

> Agree w/ gfretwell's likely assessment (see another posting) but the
> puller arms are way too long for the application.

Also thank you dpb for not only being purposefully helpful, which is rare
on Usenet these days, and particularly rate on this newsgroup to find an
actual adult posting, but also for staying on topic with your purposefully
helpful response (which is refreshing, from one adult to another).

As you noted, the "patent pending" Home Depot puller doesn't work as well
as one might think it would, based on reports on the net when I searched.

But there's a trick, as shown in this snapshot after it worked:
<https://i.postimg.cc/jqms1LsM/faucet05.jpg>

Once I used that trick, the result was a bare pipe sticking out:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Z5hJT2v3/faucet06.jpg>

Here is a detailed picture of the disassembly results:
<https://i.postimg.cc/YSrkFF3C/faucet07.jpg>

As noted the replacement valve could have re-used the old compression gear:
<https://i.postimg.cc/j5CbgrBV/faucet08.jpg>

Amazingly, _multiple_ videos showed the same strange situation-dependent
flaw with the Home Depot tool's puller arms, where there is "something" in
the geometries of "some" situations, which nullifies the action of the
finger on the puller - which needs to be removed - and only _then_ does it
work for the final quarter inch of necessary movement, as shown in detail
here (you can skip to 85 seconds for the data-dependent details):
<https://youtu.be/MjNrGuxYvjQ?t=85>

For some strange reason, the Home Depot tool works on some, but on others,
it is badly designed for the particular configuration of my pipe, as it
bottomed out with the arms in place.

> It's not likely you'll be successful in pulling the ring anyway if it
> doesn't move readily after a little pressure as that indicates the pipe
> is significantly deformed.

The "cutting off the wedding ring" method shown in the video below at time
point 511 seconds would have worked fine, but, in the future, I'll strongly
consider just re-using the old compression fitting & nut.
<https://youtu.be/FNVSMXmqsD0?t=511>

> See the other for the full sequence of options I see, but the first is
> to just hope you've not screwed up the present one too badly and just
> reuse it. Unfortunately, at this point that's likely going to leak
> because have bunged up the ring so it won't seal...

It doesn't leak, but now the dishwasher is spraying water into the sink
through the aerating valve, so I have to see if the checkvalve on the "Y"
shaped aerator is broken or if the garbage disposal unit hose is blocked.

But that's a separate topic altogether... as are the hinges on the
dishwasher. <https://i.postimg.cc/PrYvhX7t/hinge02.jpg>
--
Only 2 kinds of people are on Usenet: Those adding value & those who can't.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:08:57 -0000 (UTC), Arlen

Holder <arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:57:39 -0500, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > It is probably too late because you have been screwing with it and
> > buggered it up by now but you usually leave the old ring and
> > compression nut there and screw on the new valve using the old ring
> > and nut. You are pretty much down to cutting the pipe off at the ring
> > and hoping there is still enough to take a new ring.
>
>SOLVED:
>
>Thank you gfretwell for being one of the rare posters to this home-repair
>newsgroup who acts like an adult, and who is therefore purposefully helpful

Everyone in this thread attempted to be helpful, even if some were also
critical or sarcastic. A liitle sarcasm can be the price you pay for
free advice.

Thanks for nothing.