How to eliminate thermostats from space heaters

[knuckle...@nowhere.gov]

I suspect there's some sort of government interference that mandates
thermostatic control over heaters . Anyone know? Whether there is or
not how does one get rid of the thermostat?

The practical problem: small bathroom with sink and bath/shower
combination. On the ceiling a round gray metal steel inverted bowl
with a circular incandescent glowing wire (the element) around the
outer edge and a small fan pointing down on the inside. The fan blows
the air over the element and warms everything underneath... or used
to. The fan and element are controlled by a timer in the wall. You can
really ignore the timer and just consider it as single-pole switch. I
personally installed everything here since the beginning of time!

So back around the beginning of time this all worked as I intended. I
go in the bathroom, turn on the timer for 15 minutes, have a shower,
dry myself, feel nice and toasty warm, and if the 15 minutes are not
up turn the timer to zero and all's fine.

About ten years ago this seemed to stop working so I mortgaged the
house and paid the local electrical supply store for an exact
replacement. I installed that and it seemed to work as before. From
that point on I didn't pay too much attention as my main bathroom on
another floor was coming on stream so I never again used the old one.
That is until the last couple of months when I had to return to it due
to leaks from the new one.

In the old one now the heater heats until some magic point is reached
and it cuts out. That point usually corresponds to the moment you've
just turned off the water so you start shivering. The answer is to
remove any thermostat in the heater. What do thermostats look like?
Any web page with simple references and diagrams would help?

[philo]

If it's an exact replacement and the cut-out temp is lower than the old
one...maybe there is an adjustment.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Let me guess, the heater element got shorted some how and over heats
triggering safety shut off switch. Are you trying to get rid of built-in
safety shut off switch and get fire started? Trouble-shoot for real
cause of the problem begining with careful visual inspection.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

No, the answer is to REPLACE the "thermostat" - which is really an
overtemperature protection device. If the fan is working properly the
overtemp protector has gotton weak.

I would definitely NOT remove or bypass the protection.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I understood he replaced the entire heater with "an exact
replacement" which has failed in the same way as the original (which
is understandable if it is a marginal design)

[knuckle...@nowhere.gov]

The words "exact replacement" refer to the visual inspection of the
heater.... same color, same shape, same diameter... etc. Not toan
exact part number or specification conrrespondance. I don't remember
but I would think that the first failed for the same reason an
incandescent light bulb fails: at some point along its length the
element rusts and/or burns through. The element is mounted on
porcelain stand-offs.

[knuckle...@nowhere.gov]

I don't know why you have to over-complicate this whole affair. I'm
not really interested in why the old one failed. The new one doesn't
fail at all. It acts like it probably should, turning itself off when
it thinks you've had enough heat -- naughty boy! You're only entitled
to a mild warming. Think of the children!

I've had similar spot heaters for the last 40 years but only recently
have I noticed that they all seem to be "thermostatically controlled"
-- even the gas ones.

The "safety shut-off" switches on these type of heaters are usually
the type that turns the electricity off when the heater is knocked
over. It doesn't apply to heater mounted on the ceilings or screwed to
the walls.

[knuckle...@nowhere.gov]

Wrong! What a load of crap! The thermostat regulates the temperature
indeed but it's not a safety device. It supposedly imitates the
temperature control on the central heating. Have a look at some of the
cheap-o ones in the discount stores and read the boxes.

> If the fan is working properly the
>overtemp protector has gotton weak.

>I would definitely NOT remove or bypass the protection.

I never understand why you lot just don't reply to the questions
asked. No editorializing!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Because the answer to the question is it is NOT thermostatically
controlled - it is thermally protected. Thermostatically controlled
heaters have an external adjustment knob, and the heater cycles to
maintain temperature.
Most of the ceiling mounted "radiant" heaters are NOT thermostatically
controlled.. The wall mounted timer is the give-away.

The behaviour of the heater has changed over time. The thermal
protection devices have a habit of failing that way.

The heater in question is similar to the Nutone QT9093. ()google it)
or the Qmark QCH1151.or a Broan Model 157 .

Note both of them specify they have self resetting high limit
switched.

90% chance it has a "thermodisc" or "clixon" device.

I've fixed quite a few of them over the years - the thermodiscs don't
last forever.

[mike]

On 1/23/2015 8:08 PM, knuckle...@nowhere.gov wrote:
> I suspect there's some sort of government interference that mandates
> thermostatic control over heaters . Anyone know? Whether there is or
> not how does one get rid of the thermostat?

Sure we do, but you won't get any help with that from anyone who
is rational.

>
> The practical problem: small bathroom with sink and bath/shower
> combination. On the ceiling a round gray metal steel inverted bowl
> with a circular incandescent glowing wire (the element) around the
> outer edge and a small fan pointing down on the inside. The fan blows
> the air over the element and warms everything underneath... or used
> to. The fan and element are controlled by a timer in the wall. You can
> really ignore the timer and just consider it as single-pole switch. I
> personally installed everything here since the beginning of time!
>
> So back around the beginning of time this all worked as I intended. I
> go in the bathroom, turn on the timer for 15 minutes, have a shower,
> dry myself, feel nice and toasty warm, and if the 15 minutes are not
> up turn the timer to zero and all's fine.
>
> About ten years ago this seemed to stop working so I mortgaged the
> house and paid the local electrical supply store for an exact
> replacement. I installed that and it seemed to work as before. From
> that point on I didn't pay too much attention as my main bathroom on
> another floor was coming on stream so I never again used the old one.
> That is until the last couple of months when I had to return to it due
> to leaks from the new one.
>
> In the old one now the heater heats until some magic point is reached
> and it cuts out. That point usually corresponds to the moment you've
> just turned off the water so you start shivering. The answer is to
> remove any thermostat in the heater. What do thermostats look like?
> Any web page with simple references and diagrams would help?
>
>

You have been given some info about REPLACING the thermodisc
protection device. Probably has the cutout temperature written on the side.
While that's certainly a failure mode, I'd first look at increasing the
airflow to keep the temperature lower. Clean out all the dead mice
and see if it works better.

If you insist on defeating the fire protection, save some additional $$$.
Sell the family burial plot and go for cremation. Insist on 50% off
because you'll already be half done.

[trader_4]

It's not clear to me if it's an actual safety protection device that
only triggers if some unusual high temp is reached because something
went wrong or if it's as the OP thinks, a normal temperature regulating
type of thermostat. IDK about this specific type of heater, but for
heaters in general, it's not unusual for them to have one of each,
with the "safety" one being a thermal fuse that opens once and for all.

In any case, it would seem there are two choices:

1 - Probe around in the heater to find out how it's wired and what
exactly is controlling it, then, if possible, adjust or replace a part.
Even if he was going to bypass it, which I don't recommend for obvious
reasons, he'd have to do that anyway.

2 - Buy a new unit, maybe consider other types, like an infrared heat
lamp type which might give better performance

[philo]

On 01/23/2015 11:30 PM, knuckle...@nowhere.gov wrote:
> X

>>> If it's an exact replacement and the cut-out temp is lower than the old
>>> one...maybe there is an adjustment.
>
>> I understood he replaced the entire heater with "an exact
>> replacement" which has failed in the same way as the original (which
>> is understandable if it is a marginal design)
>
> The words "exact replacement" refer to the visual inspection of the
> heater.... same color, same shape, same diameter... etc. Not toan
> exact part number or specification conrrespondance. I don't remember
> but I would think that the first failed for the same reason an
> incandescent light bulb fails: at some point along its length the
> element rusts and/or burns through. The element is mounted on
> porcelain stand-offs.
>
>

Ok, I re-read your post and realize that it does appear to be a problem
with the thermal protection breaker and you should not bypass it.

The industrial equipment I worked on for my job, used them and though it
did not happen often they could fail in just the way you describe.

To replace one is absolutely no more time consuming or difficult than
bypassing it and they certainly don't cost much.


What you can do until you fix it is simply not turn the heater on until
you step out of the shower...or better still get your other bathroom fixed.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
How can you knock off a heater mounted on the ceiling? That shut off
switch is really a thermo sensor. They are every where. If it is
bi-metal type, mostly it is adjustable. Knock over sensor is usually a
mercury switch. I am just saying. Safety first is being naughty?

[Tony Hwang]

Hmm,
OP is a stuborn man.

[Gordon Shumway]

On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 08:46:34 -0700, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

<Snip>

>>>> I would definitely NOT remove or bypass the protection.
>>>
>>> I never understand why you lot just don't reply to the questions
>>> asked. No editorializing!
>> Because the answer to the question is it is NOT thermostatically
>> controlled - it is thermally protected. Thermostatically controlled
>> heaters have an external adjustment knob, and the heater cycles to
>> maintain temperature.
>> Most of the ceiling mounted "radiant" heaters are NOT thermostatically
>> controlled.. The wall mounted timer is the give-away.
>>
>> The behaviour of the heater has changed over time. The thermal
>> protection devices have a habit of failing that way.
>>
>> The heater in question is similar to the Nutone QT9093. ()google it)
>> or the Qmark QCH1151.or a Broan Model 157 .
>>
>> Note both of them specify they have self resetting high limit
>> switched.
>>
>> 90% chance it has a "thermodisc" or "clixon" device.
>>
>> I've fixed quite a few of them over the years - the thermodiscs don't
>> last forever.
>
>Hmm,
>OP is a stuborn man.

And obviously not too bright either.

[Ceaser Oreo]

You need to determine if the power is being sent when it cuts out or the power is no longer being sent to the heater, a celling heater is not optimal as heat rises I guess you know this, the unit sounds like the high limit safety is tripping, may be due to age or dust but bypassing is not a good idea, replacement will be the way to go if cleaning it wont work.

[knuckle...@nowhere.gov]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 00:51:11 -0500, knuckle...@nowhere.gov wrote:
>
>>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 23:08:25 -0500, knuckle...@nowhere.gov wrote:
>>>
>>>>I suspect there's some sort of government interference that mandates
>>>>thermostatic control over heaters . Anyone know? Whether there is or
>>>>not how does one get rid of the thermostat?

>>

>>I never understand why you lot just don't reply to the questions
>>asked. No editorializing!

> Because the answer to the question is it is NOT thermostatically
>controlled - it is thermally protected. Thermostatically controlled
>heaters have an external adjustment knob, and the heater cycles to
>maintain temperature.

>Most of the ceiling mounted "radiant" heaters are NOT thermostatically
>controlled.. The wall mounted timer is the give-away.

The wall-mounted timer has nothing to do with the heater. It's just a
standard rotary timer that could be used for anything.

>The behaviour of the heater has changed over time. The thermal
>protection devices have a habit of failing that way.

>The heater in question is similar to the Nutone QT9093. ()google it)
>or the Qmark QCH1151.or a Broan Model 157 .

The Broan 157 is exactly the model.

>Note both of them specify they have self resetting high limit
>switched.

>90% chance it has a "thermodisc" or "clixon" device.

>I've fixed quite a few of them over the years - the thermodiscs don't
>last forever.

I have had electrical space heaters on and off for at least 40 years.
You plug them in or direct wire them. When the electricity is on --
either switch or plug -- the elements glow and the room warms until
you decide to turn it off. Simple eh? I've never had one cause a
problem. Only the most obtuse, those afraid of their own shadow, the
"think of the children" crowd, require something else and of course
that was my original thought. Ah! It appears that I was right.

So now I have to strip all this unwanted "protection" out of this
heater.

You know back is the good old days people would help others to defeat
"the man". How do you defeat copyright protection for some piece of
software or what equiptment do you need to eliminate Macrovison? (A
Time Base Corrector is the answer to the latter.) Today it seems
you're as likely to encounter some "goody two shoes" as a fellow
fighter against the system.

Oh well, looks like I just have to do it on my own.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

No, you were wrong. The protection is required for UL approval,
removing the protection voids the UL approval and also voids your fire
insurance. Only a total imbecile would remove or bypass the
protection.
>

>So now I have to strip all this unwanted "protection" out of this
>heater.

No. REPLACE the protection.

>
>You know back is the good old days people would help others to defeat
>"the man". How do you defeat copyright protection for some piece of
>software or what equiptment do you need to eliminate Macrovison? (A
>Time Base Corrector is the answer to the latter.) Today it seems
>you're as likely to encounter some "goody two shoes" as a fellow
>fighter against the system.
>
>Oh well, looks like I just have to do it on my own.

Only someone with significantly less sense than a total imbecile would
advise you on how to defeat the protection.
>
>

[philo]

On 01/25/2015 12:11 AM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:


<Much snipped>

>
> No, you were wrong. The protection is required for UL approval,
> removing the protection voids the UL approval and also voids your fire
> insurance. Only a total imbecile would remove or bypass the
> protection.
>

No shit!

[Stormin Mormon]

One helper makes a copy of a music song, your
kind of helper is likely to burn down the
house. Who sung that "burn down the house"
ah, never mind.


--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

[trader_4]

OK, it took me about two minutes to google that model and find
a parts list. It includes:

99271125 Thermal Cuttoff

That would appear to be the likely problem. Another possibility
would be that nothing is wrong with the cuttoff and instead it's
acting to shut it off because it's overheating due to something
else, eg insufficient air flow. The actual part might also have
identifying numbers that could source it, cross reference it, etc
to obtain it at lower cost.

As to the claim that if you bypass it, your fire insurance is
voided, I'd like to see some examples where that has happened.
Fire insurance typically pays off on your stupid actions. I
have yet to see one where they said you shouldn't have used
a frayed extension cord to permanently run that refrigerator
or you shouldn't have left newspapers stacked around the
fireplace, etc, so we aren't going to pay. Note that I'm not
saying he should bypass it, I agree, that's probably a bad idea.

[Darwin]

On 01/25/2015 12:30 AM, knuckle...@nowhere.gov wrote:
> You know back is the good old days people would help others to defeat
> "the man". How do you defeat copyright protection for some piece of
> software or what equiptment do you need to eliminate Macrovison? (A
> Time Base Corrector is the answer to the latter.) Today it seems
> you're as likely to encounter some "goody two shoes" as a fellow
> fighter against the system.

Dumb ass people raise everyone's insurance premiums.

Hopefully, when your house burns down your gene pool will go with it.

[Jerr...@spamblocked.com]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 01:11:50 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>
>Only someone with significantly less sense than a total imbecile would
>advise you on how to defeat the protection.
>>

The OP could probably rent a real and approved Fire Truck, to park in
his driveway and then hire 3 or 4 professional fire fighters to staff
that truck 24/7 for around $3500 to $5000 per month.

That way, when the fire starts, they will be right there to put out the
flames quickly.

[philo]

I am so lucky in that a firehouse is just a few hundred feet from my
house...and now that I think of it...how foolish I have been to
invest...who knows how many dozens of dollars on safety precautions here.

[TimR]

On Sunday, January 25, 2015 at 8:30:34 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
> As to the claim that if you bypass it, your fire insurance is
> voided, I'd like to see some examples where that has happened.
> Fire insurance typically pays off on your stupid actions. I

Caveat: He has published his intentions on the internet for all to see, and been duly warned that he's about to do something dangerous.

His insurance might still pay off, but he might be vulnerable to civil suit from any parties that may be injured, feel injured, or claim to be injured.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 09:55:13 -0800 (PST), TimR <timot...@aol.com>
wrote:

And find himself totally uninsurable in the future.

Three things I can't fix - crack of dawn (daybreak) , broken heart,
and stupid.