Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
beergu...@yahoo.com
on doing it (I have a new generator and new uninstalled transfer
switch) so save your flames. I plan on installing my transfer switch
when I get some time in the next month or two.
I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your
main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a
line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes
dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your
switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would
power both 240 and 120 outlets.
As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?
louie
to the homeowner and to the line workers in the event someone forgets
to turn off the main). You would be limited by the size of the breaker
you are feeding through (in this case the clothes dryer), but it would
make your whole panel live just as if it were being fed through the
main.
Jim & Lil
<beergu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1130431755....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
mentioned the flames...LOL...Cause I sure got my fair share of those asking
that question.. One thing that was constructive in my replies is that even
with your main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the line
via the neutral wire....another constructive reply was to also ask in
alt.energy.homepower They are a very knowledgable group... Hope that was
of some help.... Jim
Me
beergu...@yahoo.com wrote:
Yes, it is possible......BUT only a person with your special
qualifications (beerguzzler50) should even THINK about doing
it, let alone actually TRYING to do it....... I think the
"I was drunk at the time" defense might actually work for you.
Me
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
><beergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your
>> main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a
>> line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes
>> dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your
>> switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would
>> power both 240 and 120 outlets.
>>
>> As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?
Sounds possible, and safe, unless you guzzle too much beer. You might
hang a big tag on the generator that says "Turn off the main breaker!"
>...One thing that was constructive in my replies is that even with your
>main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the line via
>the neutral wire...
That seems a very unlikely hazard, since it requires 1) a grid power
failure, and 2) a hot to neutral connection that doesn't blow your own
breaker, and 3) a neutral wire that doesn't end up attached to ground
somewhere outside your house.
Nick
BobG
make your generator extremely unhappy for a few seconds should you
forget to pull the main.
JoeSixPack
zxcvbob
I would do it in an emergency if there was an extended power outage, but
I'd probably pull the electric meter first to make absolutely sure I
wasn't backfeeding the power lines.
Yeah, I know about breaking the seal on the meter, but ya gotta do what
ya gotta do if it's really an emergency.
-Bob
JoeSixPack
Toller
fatalities as a result of doing it.
I put in a transfer switch because it just made me uncomfortable.
JoeSixPack
>
>><beergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your
>>> main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a
>>> line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes
>>> dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your
>>> switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would
>>> power both 240 and 120 outlets.
>>>
>>> As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?
>
> Sounds possible, and safe, unless you guzzle too much beer. You might
> hang a big tag on the generator that says "Turn off the main breaker!"
For the added piece of mind, a generator/main selector switch is a modest
investment.
Power failures can result in stress and confusion that make things like
leaving the main breaker on a virtual certtainty at some point. Why take the
chance to save a few bucks.
>
>>...One thing that was constructive in my replies is that even with your
>>main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the line via
>>the neutral wire...
>
> That seems a very unlikely hazard, since it requires 1) a grid power
> failure, and 2) a hot to neutral connection that doesn't blow your own
> breaker, and 3) a neutral wire that doesn't end up attached to ground
> somewhere outside your house.
>
> Nick
Unless I'm mistaken, some 240V outlets do not have the neutral wire
connected to the mains. Only a ground wire, which is insufficient to power
the 120V circuits. This would result in 240 service only in the house
wiring, when feeding in from a generator.
ba...@sme-online.com
neutral, so you can power 117v circuits.
I've done this sort of thing many times over the years, but via single
117v 15a or 20a branch circuit. Main opened first, ditto all breakers
(which are accurately labelled as to which load). Of course circuit is
chosen so as to power selected "phase" which luckily has covered the
necessary loads. Then one breaker at a time on, and maybe rotated as
necessary. (Refrigerator does not need power 100% of time, nor does
furnace blower. Yada, yada.)
At a friend's house, opening main breaker one time, caused it to fail
to close forever more. Which sped up replacement.
HTH,
J
Pete C.
You are partially mistaken. Some older 240v outlets indeed do not have a
neutral connection, however newer ones do (code change). Since the
ground and neutral are required by code to be bonded at the service
entrance panel you will get the same functionality even if you're
feeding an older dryer outlet with no dedicated neutral i.e. using the
ground as a neutral.
The ground on the circuit may be a gauge lighter wire than the main
conductors which would limit your circuit capacity if you had a large
generator (~7kw or larger), but most people doing a dryer outlet
backfeed will have 5kw or smaller generators in which case even a
reduced gauge ground on a dryer outlet has adequate capacity.
Additionally since not only are the ground and neutral requited by code
to be bonded at the service entrance panel, there is also a required
ground rod (or two) connection at the service entrance panel which makes
it all but impossible to backfeed any power down the line if the main
breaker is off. The additional grounding of the utility system neutral
every few poles provides yet another level of protection.
The true risks are 1. Forgetting to shut off the main breaker, and 2.
Forgetting the danger of the double-male "suicide" cord and proper
connection / disconnection sequences.
Pete C.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>I've done it. Lots of other people have also. But there actually have been
>fatalities as a result of doing it.
I've heard that's never actually happened. Can you name one?
Nick
Toller
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:djr99n$4...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
one example.
It does seem unlikely; if your main breaker is closed, your genny should
stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood. The only way you
could kill a lineman is if YOUR line if down and he is fixing it, or if (and
even this is a reach) you plugged in while he what handling a nearby line.
Of course, even then he is supposed to be protected from live wires by
insulation.
Still, a transfer switch avoids the embarrassing chance of continuing to run
on generator after you have power back. I did that for an hour once before
someone called me.
Tony Wesley
> Toller <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> >I've done it. Lots of other people have also. But there actually have been
> >fatalities as a result of doing it.
> I've heard that's never actually happened.
I've heard the moon is made of green cheese
> Can you name one?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/1b98848f699ee436?hl=en&
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/a5779697604bb4bc?hl=en&
JoeSixPack
<marad...@UNLISTED.com> wrote in message
news:5a82m1l5o44h8j2ui...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:31:38 -0600, "Jim & Lil"
> <jim.m...@sasktel.net> wrote:
>
>>
>><beergu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:1130431755....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>> I had asked this hypothetical question a few years ago and glad you
>>mentioned the flames...LOL...Cause I sure got my fair share of those
>>asking
>>that question.. One thing that was constructive in my replies is that even
>>with your main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the
>>line
>>via the neutral wire....another constructive reply was to also ask in
>>alt.energy.homepower They are a very knowledgable group... Hope that was
>>of some help.... Jim
>>
>
> I'd like an explanation of how you could feed power down line thru the
> neutral?
If the neutral isn't properly grounded at the service tap, it is forced back
up the line to the next good grounding point. Not a serious danger unless
people or equipment are connected in parallel to this defacto circuit. I
think it's possible that someone in an adjacent residence could be at risk
of getting a shock by being connected to both a good ground and the ground
terminal of an outlet, if the resistence to ground is greater at their
junction box. An example might be having one hand on a water tap and the
other on the metal case of an appliance with a 3-prong plug, and feeling a
tingle of current that originated from your neighbor's generator.
JoeSixPack
"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:X5b8f.10981$cg....@news02.roc.ny...
Couldn't you wire in a light on the power main side to tell you when the
power is back on?
Solar Flare
regenerates. This can be syphoned off for your car usage at a very cheap rate.
"BobG" <bobga...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1130438617.5...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Solar Flare
"JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:jKd8f.49301$yS6.3894@clgrps12...
Solar Flare
management would be held responsible and probably jailed for lying about the
state of the lines in each case.
The generator hookup people would have their pee-pees slapped but no where near
the foreman and the upper people for the deaths.
Now one was in Peurto Rico and there are so many more waiting for jobs that one
isn't gonna' be noticed.
Wire a tranfer switch box in with 4 or 6 circuits you want to be backed up and a
proper plug on the damn thing.
Don't play with people's safety or your own. Your unit coming becoming energized
may not be fun either unless you have money to burn.
The meter base does not isolate the neutral. Unless you have a fault in your
home it won't be a problem.
"Tony Wesley" <tonyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130449156.0...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Veritas
>with your main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the line
>via the neutral wire..
Most transfer switches do not switch the neutral wire anyway. However,
if your generator and your panel is properly grounded, it should be
almost impossible to energize the neutral enough to do harm, even
without a real transfer switch.
Having said that, obviously, a transfer switch is the only way to go.
Backfeeding an outlet is dangerous and violates the NEC.
Steve Kraus
> should stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood.
I think unless you have some sort of huge generator the load presented by
the outside world will look to the generator as pretty much a short to
ground. It would really have to be a situation where the power outage
resulted in you and your immediate neighbors being islanded. Where I live
there are 10 houses on the same pole transformer and even if that were
isolated I doubt my 4.4 kW machine could pull that load. Maybe if it were
the middle of the night and everyone's fridge just happened to finish
cycling before the power went out and and and... I think the risk is
nearly zip. But for safety to your machine more so than risk to any
lineman it might not be a bad idea to attach a reminder sign to your double
male cable or adaptor or whatever you do this with: TURN OFF MAIN BREAKER
BEFORE USING
Chris Lewis
> As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?
Of course. 4 wire 240V is 4 wire 240V, and breakers don't care
which terminals are the innie and which are the outie ;-)
We were installing a new main panel, and just when we wanted
to transfer the feed, the local power company went on strike.
Out of necessity (because so much had been transferred to the
new panel), we ended up temporarily backfeeding the new main
panel thru its dryer circuit from the old main's dryer circuit.
[The new main didn't have a meter installed nor the main
feed of course.]
During the great ice storm, a friend and I helped a muncipality
out by doing inspections of generator installations. One of them
(installed by a professional electrician) wired the generator
directly into the panel's backplane (they were lucky, they
just got their power back, and all we did was remove the
backfeed and reestablish the real feed). The main breaker
was wired open.
During the same ice storm, we spliced a 100Kw generator directly
into a main panel (after physically disconnecting the line
feed). [This was at the municipal works garage, and became
a base for emergency crews, road clearance, and included the
army's food/fuel distribution center.]
In an emergency, you gotta do what you gotta do. However,
if you do have to do this, you have to do whatever you can
to make it safe (ie: wire or padlock or physically disconnect the
main). Secondly, if you are preparing for an emergency
_before_ the emergency takes place, do it right. Installing
outlets and obtaining a suicide cord is not right.
[Theoretically, an illegal backfeed can earn you a $6000 fine
here. Worse if you hurt someone.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
Chris Lewis
> > It does seem unlikely; if your main breaker is closed, your genny
> > should stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood.
>
> I think unless you have some sort of huge generator the load presented by
> the outside world will look to the generator as pretty much a short to
> ground.
Precisely.
A friend of a friend suicide-corded his generator into his house,
and the generator promptly smoked within seconds of firing up.
He forgot the main breaker.
[It managed to fire up because the generator is automatically
not connected during startup, and "engages" when the motor is
up to speed. At which point it started belching smoke and stalled
out.]
Me
"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> A couple years ago I asked the same question. Someone came up with at least
> one example.
> It does seem unlikely; if your main breaker is closed, your genny should
> stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood. The only way you
> could kill a lineman is if YOUR line if down and he is fixing it, or if (and
> even this is a reach) you plugged in while he what handling a nearby line.
> Of course, even then he is supposed to be protected from live wires by
> insulation.
Bzzzzt, wrong answer and asumption, would you like to try for whgat is
behind Door #1.......
In your statement above, you make at least ONE very hugh assumtion that
is NOT correct. You assume that it takes many seconds, or minuets, of
backfeed power to electrocute someone downline. This is patently a
FALSE Assumtion. With the Transformers on the poles any amount of power
that gets put on the line generates an extremely Highvoltage Spike,
upline. It doesn't take, but a few miliseconds, of this spike to fry any
grounded entitiy across the HV side of the line. To protect linemen from
such spikes, they employ Grounding Straps on BOTH SIDES of the work area,
that in theory should protect them from such spikes. If the straps are
not installed correctly or if the workers are installing the straps
without using HotSticks, then they can certainly be ZAPPED by such
spikes, or power backfeed into the system. If you don't believe this
is true, just go ask any Lineman, and be prepared to get an earfull....
Me
Me
Steve Kraus <scr...@SPAMBLOCKfilmteknik.com> wrote:
Your thinking is just plain wrong.....
Me
Me
cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
> Precisely.
>
> A friend of a friend suicide-corded his generator into his house,
> and the generator promptly smoked within seconds of firing up.
>
> He forgot the main breaker.
>
> [It managed to fire up because the generator is automatically
> not connected during startup, and "engages" when the motor is
> up to speed. At which point it started belching smoke and stalled
> out.]
> --
> Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
> It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
all that means is you haven't a clue about what just happened, and what
was happening down the line.....
Me
Me
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
> You are partially mistaken. Some older 240v outlets indeed do not have a
> neutral connection, however newer ones do (code change). Since the
> ground and neutral are required by code to be bonded at the service
> entrance panel you will get the same functionality even if you're
> feeding an older dryer outlet with no dedicated neutral i.e. using the
> ground as a neutral.
>
> The ground on the circuit may be a gauge lighter wire than the main
> conductors which would limit your circuit capacity if you had a large
> generator (~7kw or larger), but most people doing a dryer outlet
> backfeed will have 5kw or smaller generators in which case even a
> reduced gauge ground on a dryer outlet has adequate capacity.
>
> Additionally since not only are the ground and neutral requited by code
> to be bonded at the service entrance panel, there is also a required
> ground rod (or two) connection at the service entrance panel which makes
> it all but impossible to backfeed any power down the line if the main
> breaker is off. The additional grounding of the utility system neutral
> every few poles provides yet another level of protection.
>
> The true risks are 1. Forgetting to shut off the main breaker, and 2.
> Forgetting the danger of the double-male "suicide" cord and proper
> connection / disconnection sequences.
>
> Pete C.
There is one very hugh assumption being made here in this thread.
It seems that everyone ASSUMES that all the houses that are going
to be backfeed, have wiring that is in TOTAL Compliance with the NEC,
and that if it was once in compliance, it is still in compliance, many
years later. Just what happens when the Ground Rod connection corrodes?
When was the last time you checked yours? What about the Neutral/Ground
bonding strap? what is the resistance across that today, in your house?
Do you even know? Seems like very big assumptions to "Me"....
Me
Stormin Mormon
statements completely lackig in truth.
Since you asked, Myrtle Bingle was using her suicide cord in a power cut in
Arkansas in 1956. She neglected to turn off the mains, and killed David
Petersen, who was working on the line outside her house.
Myrtle was a darky, and she was promptly arrested and tried. Spent the rest
of her life in prison. Died last year.
Remember, now, this is Usenet. You can't believe everything you read.
--
Christopher A. Young
Do good work.
It's longer in the short run
but shorter in the long run.
.
.
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:djr99n$4...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
Stormin Mormon
the mains" and then we found a couple sockets hot.
Turns out, he'd turned off the breaker for the dryer, thinking it was the
mains. I turned off the rest of the breakers.
How easy it is to make mistakes like that....
--
Christopher A. Young
Do good work.
It's longer in the short run
but shorter in the long run.
.
.
<ba...@sme-online.com> wrote in message
news:1130439353....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Solar Flare
spike you speak of, they wouldn't be telling you about it usually.
If they are putting grounds on a line with their bare hands it won't take a wild
generator to kill them.
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-D0B111.11...@netnews.att.net...
Toller
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-D0B111.11...@netnews.att.net...
> "Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> A couple years ago I asked the same question. Someone came up with at
>> least
>> one example.
>> It does seem unlikely; if your main breaker is closed, your genny should
>> stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood. The only way
>> you
>> could kill a lineman is if YOUR line if down and he is fixing it, or if
>> (and
>> even this is a reach) you plugged in while he what handling a nearby
>> line.
>> Of course, even then he is supposed to be protected from live wires by
>> insulation.
>
> Bzzzzt, wrong answer and asumption, would you like to try for whgat is
> behind Door #1.......
>
generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My
2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.
Steve Kraus
> Your thinking is just plain wrong.....
No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many
megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power
outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the
generator output to ground.
Pete C.
I didn't assume anything, I noted the code requirements which mean that
there would have to be a significant number of violations/failures for
there to be a safety issue past the obvious forgetting to shutoff the
main or the suicide cord which I noted as well.
Remember that even if your ground rod is rust, you've still got a ground
within a couple utility poles unless it is your actual service drop that
is down. It is all but impossible to build any dangerous voltage
relative to ground on the neutral. Even forgetting to pull the main has
a 99.999% probability of killing any small generator or tripping it's
circuit breakers before any dangerous voltage could build on the utility
mains.
Additionally the utility crews are supposed to 1. wear their insulating
gloves, 2. check lines for voltage before handling, and 3. ground lines
before working on them. All of which puts the odds of killing a utility
worker with your temporary generator connection worse than the odds of
winning Powerball. The chances of killing yourself with the suicide cord
on the other hand are much better.
Pete C.
Me
"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
> generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My
> 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.
Well it is easy to see that you "Don't think" period. Just what do you
think happens when your genset tries to energize a segment of the grid
by backfeeding thru the PolePig out on your pole? Does that one or two
second pulse before you little gensets goes up in smoke, show up on the
primary side of the PolePig? At what voltage does that impluse show
up at?. How far does that pulse go, before it dies of IR losses?
When you complete your 100 level College Course on Power & Transmission
come back and tell us all about it. Untill then, don't spread your
intelligence around to deeply cause your not fertilizing any crops.....
Me
Me
"Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> How would any lineman know? If they have been "zapped" by this high voltage
> spike you speak of, they wouldn't be telling you about it usually.
>
> If they are putting grounds on a line with their bare hands it won't take a
> wild
> generator to kill them.
>
> "Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
> news:Me-D0B111.11...@netnews.att.net...
They wouldn't have need to tell "Me", as I have been there, and seen
that, many times, in one of my previous lives. Have you ever really
looked at the Grounding Straps used by the Pro's? Have you ever noticed
that they have builtin devices that show if they go "Hot" while
connected? Where did the "Bare Hands" come from? All the linemen, I
have ever known work with UL Approved Insulated Gloves, and HotSticks,
but that doesn't mean they never get zapped or tingled on occasion.
Me
Pete C.
Care to tell me which brand of consumer level generator (~5kw) can
sustain a "one or two second" pulse into a megawatt level load? This
class of generator does not have a separate exciter to provide field
power under short circuit conditions. The field would collapse in
milliseconds or less if the generator was hot when it was connected, or
if an attempt was made to start the generator while connected, the field
would never develop in the first place.
Pete C.
Spud
"Steve Kraus" <scr...@SPAMBLOCKfilmteknik.com> wrote in message
news:PqD8f.3061$Rl1...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
What about the downed power line your neighbors, and you.
http://www.google.com/
In the aftermath of a disaster there are circumstances that circumvent
conventional safety procedures. The utility companies rely heavily on
independent construction firms to quickly restore utility lines. Private
contractor employees are sometimes less familiars with the territory and the
established utility company procedures. On top of everything else there is
the stress caused by working long hours in inclement conditions and the
pressure to restore power to thousands of customers some of whom are in dire
need.
A line crew was dispatched at night to restore power to a small restaurant
in a mountainous area. The restaurant was served by a 3-phase, 12.47-kV,
tapline, three spans in length. "The crew found that tree limbs had fallen
into a corner pole (one span from the restaurant) short-circuiting the line
and blowing the fuses back at the tap pole. They also discovered that the
restaurant was using a generator to maintain service."
The foreman confirmed that the main breaker at the restaurant was open,
isolating the utility service. The crew tested and grounded the line a the
tap pole and began repairs. When one lineman climbed the corner pole to
remove limbs, he discovered that the jumpers and connectors were damaged and
decided to replace them. "When he removed the jumpers, he was positioned in
such a way that he was in contact with the under grounded portion of the
line," continues Drew. For some reason, the restaurant owner was checking
the generator and inadvertently closed the main breaker, backing power
through the transformer bank and energizing the line up to the open jumpers.
The lineman received a severe shock and died.
8/29/2005
As the number of personal electric generators grows, so does the threat of
injury to utility workers and generator operators.
If you connect a generator to your electrical panel without isolating it, it
’s simply a disaster waiting to happen. A generator that’s connected to the
power system can result in power lines being energized to line voltage of
7,200 volts or higher, whether they’re on the ground or still in the air. If
your generator is not isolated from the Cullman EC distribution system, the
transformer at your location acts in reverse and can actually step-up the
normal household voltage of your generator to our system voltage. If your
generator has energized power lines that are on the ground, the energized
lines could prove to be a safety hazard to you, your family, and especially
the linemen working to restore power.
As a matter of fact, a utility worker who was repairing damage from
Hurricane Dennis was killed this past July in south Alabama because of an
improperly installed generator. It is up to you to ensure the safety
Alabama, July 14, 2005 - Sumter Electric Cooperative (SECO) officials report
that a South Carolina lineman helping to restore power in Alabama after the
damage caused by Hurricane Dennis was killed late Tuesday, reportedly by an
improperly installed customer generator.Alabama authorities are looking for
the person responsible and indicate that charges are pending
all electric connections must comply with the National Electrical Code.
You may be liable for damage to property or injury to people that may result
from an improperly installed or operation of an emergency generator.
Richard J Kinch
All I can say is that here in SE Florida since Hurricane Wilma this week,
with 6 million people out of power, with my neighborhood as a sample, there
must be about 1 million backfed generators hooked up and running. It is
not just commonplace; it is the norm.
One neighbor had a (gypsy) electrician install a 4-wire twist-lock socket
in his garage specifically for backfeeding through a suicide cord.
Just stand in the electrical aisle of Home Depot for 5 minutes. You will
see a steady stream of people buying wire and plugs and asking how to make
a backfeed connection.
The same thing happened on a slightly smaller but still massive scale last
year after Hurricanes Jeanne and Frances. I don't recall any reports of
utility workers or users being harmed by the practice. There were
certainly more people poisoned by carbon monoxide from generators than hurt
or killed by electrocution from backfeeding or other misuse.
Solar Flare
Contractors are not called for emergencies in our area and if they are ever
caught working to less than Ontario regulations they are "kicked off" the job
and may have charges laid on them. 10K - $100K are common if there is an injury
involved. People are tired of paying for accidents and the Legislators are
trying to stop it from happenning at any cost.
You do **NOT*** have rights as in a court. There is no 5th amendment. If they
find you wrong. You're f**cked You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
"Spud" <us...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:GgQ8f.15$ap1...@eagle.america.net...
Solar Flare
straps at all but rather 2/0 or larger copper, tested for impedance, less than
0.02 (forget value) resistance.
The phases are connected to the ground and/or neutral conductor and then with
equipotential grounding techniques our feet are connected to that potential also
in one or maore of many ways. Now we are standing in a certified, insulated to
1KV per inch tested every 6 months, boom mounted bucket doing overhead work. For
U/G work we have 10Kv insulated boots on (law), 20kV insulated class 2 rubber
gloves or whatever class necesasry for system voltage, flash glasses and an
insulated hardhat.
Nothing is ever considered dead unless grounded. Nothing is ever ground without
testing first. Nothing is ever tested without a legally registered process and
documented procedure, checked by at least two other certified people to switch
the piece of line or equipment out. This involves tagged locks and so on and so
on.
People caught violating any process can and will be fired upon multiple or
careless usage at any part.
In short, I do not agree with backfeeding carelessness but the excuse is mostly
crap but they have to tell you something to stop it.
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-F56879.09...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Arnold walker
> <nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
> news:djr5t2$4...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
>
>>Jim & Lil <jim.m...@sasktel.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>><beergu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your
>>>>main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a
>>>>line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes
>>>>dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your
>>>>switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would
>>>>power both 240 and 120 outlets.
>>>>
>>>>As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?
>>>>
>>Sounds possible, and safe, unless you guzzle too much beer. You might
>>hang a big tag on the generator that says "Turn off the main breaker!"
>>
>
> For the added piece of mind, a generator/main selector switch is a modest
> investment.
> Power failures can result in stress and confusion that make things like
> leaving the main breaker on a virtual certtainty at some point. Why take the
> chance to save a few bucks.
Reminds me of a accident we had while I was in the navy.
Old Gearing class destroyer with manual transfer to shorepower.
Someone forgot the other breaker and the shipboard distribution
transformer exploded.
When it recieved BOTH ship generator and shorepower.The hot oil from the
transformer took out half the electrical gang in the engineering
compartment.A 1/2 hour "all hands" firefight ensued after towards.
Had to rebuild all the shipboard generators a short time later.
>
>
>>>...One thing that was constructive in my replies is that even with your
>>>main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the line via
>>>the neutral wire...
>>>
>>That seems a very unlikely hazard, since it requires 1) a grid power
>>failure, and 2) a hot to neutral connection that doesn't blow your own
>>breaker, and 3) a neutral wire that doesn't end up attached to ground
>>somewhere outside your house.
>>
>>Nick
>>
>
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, some 240V outlets do not have the neutral wire
> connected to the mains. Only a ground wire, which is insufficient to power
> the 120V circuits. This would result in 240 service only in the house
> wiring, when feeding in from a generator.
>
>
>
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Don Young
generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a small
generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid. Consider that
if a generator is being used then the grid is not intact and how much of it
may be connected to a particular house is variable. It could be that your
service is down, in which case you can only energize your service lines,
possibly on the ground. It may be that your transformer fuse is blown or the
primary is totally disconnected, in which case you may energize your
neighbors house and the high voltage terminal of the transformer. A small
generator is perfectly capable of doing this. The problem is not energizing
the normal loads but energizing lines which may not have any load and are
presumed to be dead. I am sure that linemen are aware of the dangers of
possible backfeeding but others may not be and are not aware of an energized
line hidden in debris. Why create even a potential hazard to people and
property under emergency circumstances if not necessary? There would not be
rules and regulations regarding backfeeding if there were no hazards
involved. A hazard does not mean you can't ever do it without anything bad
happening, but that the possibility is significant.
Don Young
"Steve Kraus" <scr...@SPAMBLOCKfilmteknik.com> wrote in message
news:PqD8f.3061$Rl1...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Toller
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid
for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?
Chris Lewis
> All of thisdiscussion, which goes on anytime anyone mentions using a
> generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a small
> generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid. Consider that
> if a generator is being used then the grid is not intact and how much of it
> may be connected to a particular house is variable. It could be that your
> service is down, in which case you can only energize your service lines,
> possibly on the ground. It may be that your transformer fuse is blown or the
> primary is totally disconnected, in which case you may energize your
> neighbors house and the high voltage terminal of the transformer. A small
> generator is perfectly capable of doing this. The problem is not energizing
> the normal loads but energizing lines which may not have any load and are
> presumed to be dead. I am sure that linemen are aware of the dangers of
> possible backfeeding but others may not be and are not aware of an energized
> line hidden in debris. Why create even a potential hazard to people and
> property under emergency circumstances if not necessary? There would not be
> rules and regulations regarding backfeeding if there were no hazards
> involved. A hazard does not mean you can't ever do it without anything bad
> happening, but that the possibility is significant.
It's worth remembering that in the case of most major events such as our
ice storm, or the hurricanes of this season, it's not just one line
break, it's _thousands_. The segment a generator might _try_ to
energize could be just your lines lying on the ground, just your
neighbors on the same pole pig, or larger. Certainly, if it's anything
much more than that, your generator will stall (and/or smoke) out. But
if it ain't, you may have created a booby trap between you and the pole awaiting
anybody who walks too near, or your neighbor's house, or up on a pole. Possibly
considerably higher than 120V. Ie: if we backfed the feed with a generator
with a break between the last two poles coming to our house, there's a live
4KV line on the ground waiting to bite _anyone_ walking along our driveway.
Chris Lewis
> Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid
> for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?
Who said anything about 80 square miles?
If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it
would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever.
Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried.
In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away,
the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses'
feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until
told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment.
HorneTD
> Oh, gee. Don't get started askign for specifics. Usenet is for wild ass
> statements completely lackig in truth.
>
> Since you asked, Myrtle Bingle was using her suicide cord in a power cut in
> Arkansas in 1956. She neglected to turn off the mains, and killed David
> Petersen, who was working on the line outside her house.
>
> Myrtle was a darky, and she was promptly arrested and tried. Spent the rest
> of her life in prison. Died last year.
>
> Remember, now, this is Usenet. You can't believe everything you read.
Here are two Fatality Assessment and Control Evaluation (FACE) reports
on the deaths of outside wiremen do to generator back feeds.
<http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9002.html>
<http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9005.html>
--
Tom Horne
Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.
George
>
> Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
> generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My
> 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.
>
>
So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location
of lineman?
But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary
is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So
you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in
my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable.
And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and
scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to.
daestrom
"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gJX8f.763$lg....@news01.roc.ny...
Last outage we had here, we lost a 13.8kv fuse on the main highway. My
house and 10 others in the development. Happened during the day, with not
many folks home. I'm pretty sure a 5kw generator would have energized the
line for more than just a few seconds.
Folks have to remember that the load on the grid segment is highly variable.
During the day, a house might only have a hundred watts or so unless the
fridge kicks on. Add a thermostat for the furnace and you might have 300
watts (furnace blowers don't connect across the line until you energize the
line). So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more houses.
And that would have made 13.8kV on the downstream side of that fuse out by
the main highway (some 300 yards away from my neighbor's generator).
Do you *really* want to rely on how many lights the neighbor has switched
on? Sure if there is a lot of loads turned on at the moment, your generator
would stall out/smoke very quickly. But if all the lights are off (and the
TV/computer shut off when the power goes off, so they won't come back on),
then a house isn't always the same load and the generator may survive a bit
longer.
I remember hurricane Frederick, back in '79. Power was out for weeks to
some areas. But when the utility started powering up sub-stations, they
would overheat because the long outage had effectively synchronized
everyones load demand. Equipment is normally sized based on a certain
amount of diversity factor between you and your neighbor's A/C, 'fridge,
etc... Leave the power off long enough and when it comes back they *all*
want to start at once. Ka-BOOM!!! goes the sub-station.
Predicting the amount of load drawn by a small group of houses can be a bit
tricky.
daestrom
>
Toller
"Chris Lewis" <cle...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote in message
news:11m8k5o...@corp.supernews.com...
> According to Toller <Tol...@Yahoo.com>:
>
>> Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile
>> grid
>> for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?
>
> Who said anything about 80 square miles?
I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there
hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles.
>
> If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it
> would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever.
>
Yeh, and then what?
> Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried.
>
Ah, but that hasn't happed to me.
> In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away,
> the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses'
> feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until
> told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment.
>
That's true in your case, but not in mine.
Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses?
I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage
will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a
lineman on my feed when I turn it on?
And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything? The
two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the
lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the
voltage.
Still, I have transfer switch now.
Solar Flare
area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want
you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing.
The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no
other excuse not to.
Your gas
Your solar
Your expenses
Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs)
Your expertise
Your hard work.
Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball?
"I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done"
"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mT39f.11331$cg....@news02.roc.ny...
Pete C.
>
> A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your
> area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want
> you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing.
>
> The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no
> other excuse not to.
> Your gas
> Your solar
> Your expenses
> Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs)
> Your expertise
> Your hard work.
> Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball?
>
> "I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done"
>
That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I
bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps
they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage
themselves.
As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack
will be documented and the guilty party held for the police.
Pete C.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>...Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on
>a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary...
No, you thoughtfully throw the main breaker.
Nick
Solar Flare
LOL
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:4364CFFA...@snet.net...
Steve Spence
Apparently, thinking is not a highly held attribute among many posters
to this newsgroup.
Here's a simple solution:
http://www.aecc.com/be-prepared/standby-generator/
Here is another:
http://www.outbackmarine.com.au/MasterPages/TypeDetail/TypeDetail.asp?TypeID=299#74
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
Pete C.
Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main
breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.
The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and
backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman
directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've
seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home
generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired
lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.
There are far more reports of utility linemen being killed or injured by
other careless actions than by improperly connected generators. One
report I read that springs to mind (the lineman survived this one) is
where a drunk driver had plowed a pad mount transformer off the pad and
tossed it a few hundred feet. The lineman arrived, walked over the the
pad and saw that the high voltage cables with the "elbow" connectors
looked to be in good shape so he picked one up, grabbed a rag from his
pocket and proceeded to wipe some dirt out of the connector. He hadn't
checked to see if things were still live and regained consciousness a
short while later with the cops paying more attention to him than the
drunk driver.
Pete C.
Pete C.
>
> All that backup power and you can't sleep for fear of the ninja neighbours?
>
> LOL
>
Uh huh.
Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the
unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes.
Pete C.
Solar Flare
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:4364F991...@snet.net...
Solar Flare
It is still advisabe to use transfer switches for generators. Take all the
safety precautions you can. The nightmares and the legal fees may not be worth
what could happen to you or another human being. Despite the bullshit the
Electrical Utilities dish out to the simpleton public.
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:4364D5E5...@snet.net...
> Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main
> breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.
>
> The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and
> backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman
> directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've
> seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home
> generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired
> lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.
>
> Pete C.
Toller
> So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more houses.
>
refrigerator and freezer came on at the same time. 10 houses? 2 houses
would be extraordinary.
Chris Lewis
> Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the
> unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes.
You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your
generator?
In emergencies people do wierd things.
Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews.
Pop
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:4364D5E5...@snet.net...
Pop
"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
:
: > So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more
:
And less than one's enough to kill someone.
Vaughn
"Pop" <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:t-Cdnf_ma-Z...@usadatanet.net...
> Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
> long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
> shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"
Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same
fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my
car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me
from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.
Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.
Vaughn
Waldo
Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
the breakers.
The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected
with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads.
They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code
requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and
neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator
will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you
ask me.
Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize
your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code
requires it for the safety of everyone involved!
Pete C.
>
> Vaughn wrote:
> > "Pop" <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
> > news:t-Cdnf_ma-Z...@usadatanet.net...
> >
> >>Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
> >>long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
> >>shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"
> >
> >
> > Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same
> > fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my
> > car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me
> > from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.
> >
> > Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.
> >
> > Vaughn
> >
> >
>
> Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
> so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
> their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
> about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
> other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
> the breakers.
There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup
when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly
what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary
circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the
handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off
the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the
link bar.
A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they
even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off
the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the
generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before
turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.
>
> The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected
> with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads.
> They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code
> requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and
> neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator
> will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you
> ask me.
The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents
for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a portable
generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC.
Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable.
>
> Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize
> your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code
> requires it for the safety of everyone involved!
It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch
in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in
permanent installations.
Pete C.
Pete C.
If they could steal a 3,000# skid mounted diesel generator blocked in by
several cars and not wake me up in the process I'd be very very
surprised.
Pete C.
Antipodean Bucket Farmer
aux3....@snet.net says...
Always beware of the, "If I can't have it, then neither
can you," type of morons. They may simply try to
destroy your resources, in order to even out the
"unfair" discrepancy.
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
marika
Chris Lewis wrote:
> You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your
> generator?
>
> In emergencies people do wierd things.
>
> Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews.
> --
>
that may be true, I couldn't say
but I am really bothered by the very racist hurricane thing they are
doing now, what with naming them after GREEK LETTERS.
What do the Greeks have to do with US hurricanes anyway.
It's not like they even start in the Aegean or anything
mk5000
"i'm very curious about different systems, and time you plunge into an
early-adopter situation, there re unknown risks. But I felt that we
could navigate it. It tourned out to be true"--Walter Murch
Solar Flare
Billy Bob
Billy Rae
Billy Sue
Billy Jean
Billy Joe
Billy Graham
"marika" <marik...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130728405....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
JoeSixPack
"Don Young" <no...@nonesuch.com> wrote in message
news:11m8gs0...@corp.supernews.com...
> All of thisdiscussion, which goes on anytime anyone mentions using a
> generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a
> small generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid.
But at least once, it was energized sufficiently to kill a lineman. That
justifies this discussion
> Don Young
> "Steve Kraus" <scr...@SPAMBLOCKfilmteknik.com> wrote in message
> news:PqD8f.3061$Rl1...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Me wrote:
>>
>>> Your thinking is just plain wrong.....
>>
>> No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many
>> megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power
>> outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the
>> generator output to ground.
>>
>
>
It's not megawatts, or watts that kill you, it's current. Even milliamps
can kill when penetrating the skin. Those milliamps can enter the body
quite easily at higher voltages. Backfeeding through a transformer can
produce voltages quite sufficient to conduct those milliamps through a human
body.
JoeSixPack
"Toller" <Tol...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down from
say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the
transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone toucing
the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current (milliamps
in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge to
reach dangerous conclusions.
JoeSixPack
>>
>> Toller wrote:
>> >
>> > Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
>> > generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them.
>> > My
>> > 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location
>> of lineman?
>>
>> But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary
>> is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So
>> you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in
>> my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable.
>>
>> And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and
>> scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to.
>
> Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main
> breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.
>
> The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and
> backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman
> directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've
> seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home
> generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired
> lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.
Stop spreading dangerous misinformation. Backfeeding generators can and do
kill linemen.
http://www.clatskaniepud.com/Generators.htm
http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/vhouse/articles/generat.htm
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/portgen.html
http://eweb.org/home/energy/generator/index.htm
A few of the many, many links that warn of this hazard.
You are a hazard.
JoeSixPack
"Richard J Kinch" <ki...@truetex.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96FEA88A56E...@216.196.97.131...
>> As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?
>
> All I can say is that here in SE Florida since Hurricane Wilma this week,
> with 6 million people out of power, with my neighborhood as a sample,
> there
> must be about 1 million backfed generators hooked up and running. It is
> not just commonplace; it is the norm.
>
> One neighbor had a (gypsy) electrician install a 4-wire twist-lock socket
> in his garage specifically for backfeeding through a suicide cord.
>
> Just stand in the electrical aisle of Home Depot for 5 minutes. You will
> see a steady stream of people buying wire and plugs and asking how to make
> a backfeed connection.
>
> The same thing happened on a slightly smaller but still massive scale last
> year after Hurricanes Jeanne and Frances. I don't recall any reports of
> utility workers or users being harmed by the practice. There were
> certainly more people poisoned by carbon monoxide from generators than
> hurt
> or killed by electrocution from backfeeding or other misuse.
Do you know what a step-down transformer does? It converts 7200 volts to
240 & 120 volts. Do you know what happens when you backfeed 240 volts
through it? It puts 7200 volts back into the line. Do you know how little
current it takes to kill you at such a voltage? Very little. Your limited
knowledge and limited reasoning power are forming dangerous conclusions.
Stop doing that. Someone may get killed because of what you are saying.
JOHN D
I'm not an electrician but here's my 2 cents.
You can't ever let your generator feed back down the power lines. The main
breaker must be off and must stay off. It doesn't matter if your generator
can't possibly power the whole neighborhood or the whole grid..If people
hook up generators to their house wireing, even for a few seconds, without
isolating the house from the line,.sooner or later, somewhere, the right set
of conditions will exist to electrocute a lineman. You can't take that
chance. The main breaker must be off. There must be no chance that anyone
will turn the main breaker back on before the generator connection is
removed. I can see a lot of ways for this to go wrong.
I don't see where there's risk of back feeding through the neutral line any
more than there would be if you have a proper generator transfer switch.
Does a transfer switch isolate the neutral?
Vaughn
"JoeSixPack" <ol...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:98i9f.92972$Io.20491@clgrps13...
>
>
> But at least once, it was energized sufficiently to kill a lineman. That
> justifies this discussion
No; we have had to too many times before.
The world is not a perfectly safe place and far more people use far more
common ways to kill themselves and others with gennys.
Vaughn (a guy with a transfer panel)
Pete C.
Um, it only take milliamps to kill you at 120/240 volts as well. The
only difference between 120/240 and 7,200 is amount of insulation
required to protect you.
Pete C.
Pete C.
There is absolutely no misinformation in what I posted. The links you
list border on misinformation in their omissions.
I indicated that if you screw up and back feed the mains you will
provide an opportunity for a careless lineman to kill themselves, not
kill them directly. This is a *fact*. A lineman following established
procedures will *not* be killed by a back feeding generator.
As I've noted, every case I've seen where a lineman was "killed by an
improperly connected generator" has clearly shown that the lineman in
question did not follow proper procedures. If you have references to a
case where a lineman followed procedures and was killed by an
"improperly connected generator" I'd like to see it.
I bet you also believe you can't put metal in a microwave oven...
Pete C.
JoeSixPack
> JoeSixPack wrote:
>>
>> Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down
>> from
>> say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the
>> transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone
>> toucing
>> the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current
>> (milliamps
>> in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge
>> to
>> reach dangerous conclusions.
>
> Um, it only take milliamps to kill you at 120/240 volts as well. The
> only difference between 120/240 and 7,200 is amount of insulation
> required to protect you.
>
> Pete C.
Exactly right. It only takes milliamps to kill you, but the greater the
voltage, the more milliamps are driven through your skin and into your body.
Pete C.
>
> "Richard J Kinch" <ki...@truetex.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns96FEA88A56E...@216.196.97.131...
> >> As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?
> >
> > All I can say is that here in SE Florida since Hurricane Wilma this week,
> > with 6 million people out of power, with my neighborhood as a sample,
> > there
> > must be about 1 million backfed generators hooked up and running. It is
> > not just commonplace; it is the norm.
> >
> > One neighbor had a (gypsy) electrician install a 4-wire twist-lock socket
> > in his garage specifically for backfeeding through a suicide cord.
> >
> > Just stand in the electrical aisle of Home Depot for 5 minutes. You will
> > see a steady stream of people buying wire and plugs and asking how to make
> > a backfeed connection.
> >
> > The same thing happened on a slightly smaller but still massive scale last
> > year after Hurricanes Jeanne and Frances. I don't recall any reports of
> > utility workers or users being harmed by the practice. There were
> > certainly more people poisoned by carbon monoxide from generators than
> > hurt
> > or killed by electrocution from backfeeding or other misuse.
>
> Do you know what a step-down transformer does? It converts 7200 volts to
> 240 & 120 volts. Do you know what happens when you backfeed 240 volts
> through it? It puts 7200 volts back into the line.
Many areas operate with primary voltages higher than 7200 volts.
> Do you know how little
> current it takes to kill you at such a voltage? Very little.
It's the same current that it takes to kill you at 120/240 volts. The
difference in not in the current requirement, it is in the amount of
insulation required to protect you.
> Your limited
> knowledge and limited reasoning power are forming dangerous conclusions.
> Stop doing that. Someone may get killed because of what you are saying.
Your limited knowledge is forming incorrect assertions.
The amount of current flowing across the heart required to kill you is
small and a constant. The voltage necessary to achieve this current
varies depending on the contact conditions. Once you exceed the voltage
necessary to produce that current across the resistance of the human
body over the distance between the contact points, you're toast.
Pete C.
Pete C.
I've not seen any transfer switches that switch or isolate the neutral
and I've seen many transfer switches.
Pete C.
JoeSixPack
What color is the sun in your little world there?
Do you not know that when you put 240V back through the transformer, it
energizes the lines to 7200 Volts? Do you know how little current it takes
to kill someone at such a voltage? Your comments are stupid and
irresponsible. You just have to admit you're wrong sometimes, and there's
no amount of explaining that can save you.
Chris Lewis
> I indicated that if you screw up and back feed the mains you will
> provide an opportunity for a careless lineman to kill themselves, not
> kill them directly. This is a *fact*. A lineman following established
> procedures will *not* be killed by a back feeding generator.
I'm sure that a linesman whose been putting in 16 hour days for a week
reconnecting lines after a hurricane will appreciate the attitude about
booby traps.
Secondly, who said it's only linesmen? Last I heard, homeowners don't
have such training, and a 4KV+ line lying in the ground isn't biased
as to who it bites. Including unwary homeowners.
Pop
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:43656DAB...@snet.net...
...
:
: There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator
hookup
: when done **by a competent person**. "
===> If that's the basis of your comments, it's silly - these
posts aren't about a vague descrition of a "competent" person.
Throwing the main breaker" is exactly
: what some approved transfer switches do,
===> No, it is not. They connect to or disconnect power from/to
a predetermined path. The main breaker is not "thrown" by the
transfer switch.
they have two very ordinary
: circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar
between the
: handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the
"turn off
: the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection
is the
: link bar.
===> Guess you're making apoint here, but not sure what it is.
:
: A competent person
===> Meaningless term again. Vague, not useful or meaningful.
You mean a licensed electrician or more from the sound of it.
switches off and tags the main breaker before they
: even haul out the generator, double checks it again after
turning off
: the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable",
starts the
: generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more
before
: turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.
===> Oh, but they don't notify/chase out the neighborhood kids,
pets and others?
:
: >
: > The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected
: > with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads.
===> No, I haven't seen much evidence of that. Pooly stated
comment and not what I think you meant to say.
: > They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code
: > requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and
===> But, if they "know what they're doing", wouldn't that make
them a "competent person"?
: > neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator
: > will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you
: > ask me.
===> Yabut, it sounds just like your attitude earlier in this
post.
:
: The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved
equivalents
: for permanent generator installations.
A temporary hookup of a portable
: generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of
the NEC.
: Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not
applicable.
===> True, but ... there are a couple sections of the NEC you're
apparently not familiar with, plus you totally ignore any local
codes in that statement.
:
: >
: > Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize
: > your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code
: > requires it for the safety of everyone involved!
===> No, use a Transfer Switch. An "isolation" switch in this
context is meaningless.
:
: It is asinine to claim that you should always install a
transfer switch
: in order to connect a generator,
===> No, it is assinine to make the ego-centric statements you've
made, though. Something tells me you only -think- you are a
"competent person". Else you wouldn't try to make most of these
statements.
transfer switches only make sense in
: permanent installations.
===> No, they make a tremendous amount of sense. They make it
easy, quick to do, and about as close to foolproof as you can
make the situation. If Mom's the only one home and the pipes are
freezing, all she has to do is start the generator by pusing the
button, then turn on the power with the transfer switch.
We'd be up and running before your "competent" guy even found
his cordsets.
Our situation isn't quite as neat: Here, you first have to
roll the generator out of the garage and over to the porch, about
5 feet from the garage door, and plug it into the house first.
Quite a hardship, but ... it's reliable and works.
Ice Storm Survivor
Pop
:
: Pete C.
JoeSixPack
"Spud" <us...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:GgQ8f.15$ap1...@eagle.america.net...
>
> "Steve Kraus" <scr...@SPAMBLOCKfilmteknik.com> wrote in message
> news:PqD8f.3061$Rl1...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Me wrote:
>>
>> > Your thinking is just plain wrong.....
>>
>> No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many
>> megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power
>> outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the
>> generator output to ground.
>
>
> http://www.google.com/
> In the aftermath of a disaster there are circumstances that circumvent
> conventional safety procedures. The utility companies rely heavily on
> independent construction firms to quickly restore utility lines. Private
> contractor employees are sometimes less familiars with the territory and
> the
> established utility company procedures. On top of everything else there is
> the stress caused by working long hours in inclement conditions and the
> pressure to restore power to thousands of customers some of whom are in
> dire
> need.
>
>
>
> A line crew was dispatched at night to restore power to a small restaurant
> in a mountainous area. The restaurant was served by a 3-phase, 12.47-kV,
> tapline, three spans in length. "The crew found that tree limbs had fallen
> into a corner pole (one span from the restaurant) short-circuiting the
> line
> and blowing the fuses back at the tap pole. They also discovered that the
> restaurant was using a generator to maintain service."
>
> The foreman confirmed that the main breaker at the restaurant was open,
> isolating the utility service. The crew tested and grounded the line a the
> tap pole and began repairs. When one lineman climbed the corner pole to
> remove limbs, he discovered that the jumpers and connectors were damaged
> and
> decided to replace them. "When he removed the jumpers, he was positioned
> in
> such a way that he was in contact with the under grounded portion of the
> line," continues Drew. For some reason, the restaurant owner was checking
> the generator and inadvertently closed the main breaker, backing power
> through the transformer bank and energizing the line up to the open
> jumpers.
> The lineman received a severe shock and died.
>
>
> 8/29/2005
> As the number of personal electric generators grows, so does the threat of
> injury to utility workers and generator operators.
>
> If you connect a generator to your electrical panel without isolating it,
> it
> 's simply a disaster waiting to happen. A generator that's connected to
> the
> power system can result in power lines being energized to line voltage of
> 7,200 volts or higher, whether they're on the ground or still in the air.
> If
> your generator is not isolated from the Cullman EC distribution system,
> the
> transformer at your location acts in reverse and can actually step-up the
> normal household voltage of your generator to our system voltage. If your
> generator has energized power lines that are on the ground, the energized
> lines could prove to be a safety hazard to you, your family, and
> especially
> the linemen working to restore power.
>
> As a matter of fact, a utility worker who was repairing damage from
> Hurricane Dennis was killed this past July in south Alabama because of an
> improperly installed generator. It is up to you to ensure the safety
>
>
> Alabama, July 14, 2005 - Sumter Electric Cooperative (SECO) officials
> report
> that a South Carolina lineman helping to restore power in Alabama after
> the
> damage caused by Hurricane Dennis was killed late Tuesday, reportedly by
> an
> improperly installed customer generator.Alabama authorities are looking
> for
> the person responsible and indicate that charges are pending
>
> all electric connections must comply with the National Electrical Code.
> You may be liable for damage to property or injury to people that may
> result
> from an improperly installed or operation of an emergency generator.
>
When some minds are made up, no amount of evidence or reasoning can convince
them their arguments are faulty.
I doubt if they will even respond to your excellent post.
Pete C.
More milliamps does not equal more dead. Dead is dead and once you're
past the threshold the voltage is irrelevant.
Pete C.
Pete C.
The first story in his "excellent" post once again shows that the
ultimate cause of the lineman's death was his own carelessness in not
following proper procedures, not the generator. He was clearly not
wearing his HV gloves or other protective gear.
The second story contains no details so a determination of the ultimate
cause can't be made. I searched around and was unable to find a detailed
report on this incident. It is quite likely that the ultimate cause of
the death will be the lineman's own carelessness.
The established procedures for line work, if followed will keep the
lineman safe regardless of the electrical state of the lines. I'd be
quite interested if you have a detailed report of a fatality where all
procedures were followed.
Pete C.
Richard J Kinch
> Your limited knowledge and limited reasoning power ...
You know nothing of who I am, and are quite mistaken.
Pete C.
The only bull here is yours in trying to hack things out of context. Try
again and this time leave everything in place and in context.
Pete C.
Pete C.
I'm well aware of how a transformer works, in fact I was the only one to
pass my power distribution course with a perfect score (all weekly
tests, mid term and final 100% correct).
My comments are 100% factually accurate. Please provide specific
examples with references to what you think I am incorrect on.
The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back
feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also
not follow established procedures for his work.
Pete C.
Pete C.
>
> According to Pete C. <aux3....@snet.net>:
>
> > I indicated that if you screw up and back feed the mains you will
> > provide an opportunity for a careless lineman to kill themselves, not
> > kill them directly. This is a *fact*. A lineman following established
> > procedures will *not* be killed by a back feeding generator.
>
> I'm sure that a linesman whose been putting in 16 hour days for a week
> reconnecting lines after a hurricane will appreciate the attitude about
> booby traps.
Not a booby trap, a normal job hazard and one that the standard
procedures for the job address.
>
> Secondly, who said it's only linesmen? Last I heard, homeowners don't
> have such training, and a 4KV+ line lying in the ground isn't biased
> as to who it bites. Including unwary homeowners.
Indeed, a live downed line can fry anyone that comes in contact with it,
regardless of the source it is energized from. "Always assume any downed
power line is live".
Pete C.
Pete C.
>
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:24:33 GMT, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
> >More milliamps does not equal more dead. Dead is dead and once you're
> >past the threshold the voltage is irrelevant.
> >
> >Pete C.
>
> or instant cremation.
Indeed, but dead is still dead.
Pete C.
Waldo
Pete C. wrote:
> Waldo wrote:
>
>>Vaughn wrote:
>>
>>>"Pop" <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote in message
>>>news:t-Cdnf_ma-Z...@usadatanet.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
>>>>long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
>>>>shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same
>>>fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my
>>>car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me
>>>from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.
>>>
>>> Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.
>>>
>>>Vaughn
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
>>so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
>>their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
>>about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
>>other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
>>the breakers.
>
>
> There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup
> when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly
> what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary
> circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the
> handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off
> the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the
> link bar.
>
Not quite. A transfer switch prevents the possibility of
having both sides connected at the same time.
> A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they
> even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off
> the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the
> generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before
> turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.
>
Depends upon your definition of a competent person. Joe-blow
may certainly think he's competent because he knows how to
do it as you described above. I think I'm competent and
that's why my generator hookup is to code requirements - via
a transfer switch and proper sized cable and connectors.
>
>> The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected
>>with isolation switches
My bad, should have read 'transfer switches'
seems to go right over their heads.
>>They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code
>>requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and
>>neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator
>>will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you
>>ask me.
>
>
> The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents
> for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a portable
> generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC.
> Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable.
>
Agreed, but depends upon your definition of an emergency
situation. If someone is on a heart-lung machine, or
something of that nature, and a back-up power source is not
available and a generator must be brought in to provide
power then I would consider that to be an emergency
requirement. But a power outage for a few hours is not a
real emergency for most homes, an inconvenience perhaps, but
not an emergency.
>
>>Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize
>>your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code
>>requires it for the safety of everyone involved!
>
>
> It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch
> in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in
> permanent installations.
>
And how do you define a permanent installation? I have a
portable generator that gets connected through a transfer
switch to the house during extended power outages. When line
power comes back on the generator gets disconnected and
rolled back into the shop. This is not a permanent
installation, but code still requires it be connected via a
transfer switch.
If a person has a generator on hand and intends to use it
during power outages then that person should have the means
to connect it properly and safely..
Waldo
> Pete C.
Pete C.
>
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back
> >feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also
> >not follow established procedures for his work.
> >
> >Pete C.
>
> keeps you from backfeeding the grid is the grid itself. When your tiny
> little generator hits your neighbor's A/C units and whatever else they
> still have on, your generator's breaker will trip. On my street there
> are about a dozen houses fed from a common secondary set and 4
> transformers, all in parallel. It would take a very big genset to even
> bump that line. Unless the primary is broken on your dead end street,
> very close to your house, you will also be trying to feed all the
> other streets.
I'm lucky in that I share a 50KVA transformer with one neighbor.
The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.
Pete C.
Dale Farmer
"Pete C." wrote:
You are also failing to follow the long standard engineering practice
of having a system setup such that it requires a minimum of two failures
for a life threatening fault. You are advocating that homeowners with
generators intentionally provide the first failure. So now that lineman
is only one ripped glove away from being electrocuted. You may be
book smart, but you sure are stupid.
--Dale