Alarm system transformer + power supply (would both go bad at once?)

[Danny D'Amico]

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/10989825326_f3fcb528ab_o.gif

Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/10989723005_3ee48ee609_o.gif

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/10989888274_6ed9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10989824356_41ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

[tra...@optonline.net]

It shouldn't, but you'll never know if your experimentation
somehow caused it or if it was just a coincidence. There is no
question that home generators of various types have been known to
screw up some electronic equipment at times.


>
> Any other troubleshooting suggestions?


I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?

[Pat]

Also, depending on where fuses are located, the power supply failing
(for example, a shorted capacitor or diode) could have taken out the
transformer secondary. So, it isn't necessarily a coincidence that
both failed at once.

Pat

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

Danny D'Amico <da...@is.invalid> wrote:

>Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

> I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
>Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
>volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
>(I don't know how to load it though):
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/10989888274_6ed9f59f77_o.gif

If the alarm battery is more than 4 or 5 years old, there's a good chance it
won't support any kind of load. They are cheap - I'd replace it.

[RobertMacy]

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 23:35:28 -0700, Danny D'Amico <da...@is.invalid> wrote:

> Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/10989825326_f3fcb528ab_o.gif
>

> ..snip to keep Aioe happy

I don't have experience with your set up. just trying to conceive of the
transient conditions leading up to the failure to better understand where
to look and what to replace. Wasn't that sequence a possible scenario when
your AC mains fail? Or did opening your 200A house breaker somehow supply
a 'no-load' to your generac and thus you put some really high voltage
places you didn't want? Or, switching back and forth did something. Or,
yeah, tough, two things broke - it happens. Aren't the built-in fuse links
inside those transformers in the primary, not the secondary?

[mike]

Transformers often have thermal fuses inside them.
But the ones I've replaced were in the primary.
And since you confirmed secondary, probably not your problem.
Might be worth a look tho.

[The Daring Dufas]

Most alarm systems will beep error codes such as AC power failure and if
you have a user manual, it should show you how to read the error codes
from the keypad. The error codes stay in static memory until erased
along with the time and date making the alarm tech's repair job a lot
easier. I seem to recall that small module connected between the battery
and alarm system being a battery saver that will disconnect the battery
when it gets to a low enough voltage. The blue tubular looking component
on the small module is an electrolytic capacitor that could be blown due
to the swollen end. You can bypass the module and the alarm system
should power up. It's very possible that the blown electrolytic
capacitor could have shorted out and blown the fusible link inside the
transformer. Try bypassing the module and see if the alarm will power
up. You may be able to replace the 22 year old blue electrolytic
capacitor then replace the wall wart transformer and the darned old
system should work. It will operate without the module connected between
the battery and alarm system. I'm assuming from looking at your pictures
that you are not monitored by an alarm company and it's just a local
alarm. ^_^

TDD

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Just start with replacing the x-former and battery. I strongly suspect
battery is no good. When you check the voltage did you remove a lead
from battery terminal since you mentioned no load voltage.
Your battery is not holding charge so when x-former quit, it couldn't
supply the necessary juice.

[The Daring Dufas]

Look at the picture of the module between the battery and power
terminals. It's a battery saver module designed to keep the battery from
being completely discharged. Look closely at the blue electrolytic
capacitor on the module circuit board. It looks swollen and electrolytic
capacitors can dry out and become a short circuit, especially if they're
22 years old. ^_^

TDD

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <da...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l6mtvg$hs3$1...@solani.org...

Replace the transformer. Fry's or Home Depot, off of Hamilton Ave West
of Hwy 17 will be the closest location, other than some hard to find
places in Campbell, to you.

Move that rat nest to the right and look at the lower right area of the
circuit board. There should be a glass fuse close to where the power
leads terminate on the terminal strip. This fuse might have a white
casing. Pull the fuse and check it. Ohm meter will read zero if good,
or 0l (zero l - Open line). If you know how to activate the continuity
test of your Fluke, the tone gives a better indication since the Fluke
might pick up your finger tips (it is a pain to get the leads on those
little buggers) and goof ball around for a bit.

Buy some six inch long cable ties and clean that mess up. :-)

[tra...@optonline.net]

It's easy enough to verify that the battery is or isn't the problem.
He's got 13.5V on the battery with no load. That doesnt' sound like
a bad battery to me. All he has to do is measure the voltage with it
connected to the alarm. If it's 12V and the alarm isn't powering up,
then it's not the battery.

When you check the voltage did you remove a lead
>
> from battery terminal since you mentioned no load voltage.
>
> Your battery is not holding charge so when x-former quit, it couldn't
>
> supply the necessary juice.

Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts

[mrob...@att.net]

In sci.electronics.repair Danny D'Amico <da...@is.invalid> wrote:
> Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
> wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
> transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
> plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
> three screws on the secondary windings:
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

You should have roughly 16.5 V AC (maybe a little more) between the two
screws marked "AC" with the wires disconnected. If you don't have that,
your transformer died. These transfomers often have an internal, non-
replaceable fuse; if it goes out, you replace the transformer. A local
electronics shop (not Radio Shack) probably stocks them; if not you can
get them online. This is a standard size; $20 plus shipping is a good
price online.

> Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
> volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
> (I don't know how to load it though):
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/10989888274_6ed9f59f77_o.gif

Get any 12 V light bulb, except a headlight, from a car (preferably your
car), disconnect the battery from the alarm system, and connect the
light bulb across the battery terminals. The dome light is often easy
to get to and a convenient shape. This will draw somewhere between 0.25
and 2 A from a working battery. The battery voltage under load will go
down a little, but if it goes way under roughly 11.6 V, the battery is
probably toast.

If the battery voltage doesn't go that far down, leave the light bulb on
the battery for a few minutes, then disconnect it. Measure the battery
voltage, then reconnect the battery to the alarm (with a working AC
transformer connected to the alarm) and measure again. If the alarm is
successfully charging the battery, the voltage will have gone up by a
noticeable amount - like at least half a volt.

Alternatively, if the battery is more than about 5 years old, just
replace it; it's probably bad. There may be a date code on the battery,
or you may know when the alarm was installed or last serviced. Computer
UPS batteries do a similar job and I can only get about 7 years tops out
of them, even with the brands I like.

You have a sealed lead-acid or "gel cell" battery, and they come in
several standard sizes and capacities. The label inside the door calls
for a 7 Ah battery, but there is a 5 Ah battery installed in your panel;
if you can confirm that the label matches the hardware, it's probably
better to install a 7 Ah battery. The manufacturers are always tweaking
the specs (if not the actual battery), so your size battery may be
advertised as a 7 Ah, 7.2 Ah, or even 7.5 Ah. Any of these will work
as long as it will fit in the panel. Also, note that the "7 Ah" size
can come with 3/16" wide or 1/4" wide tab terminals; matching what you
have now is best. Some 7 Ah batteries with 1/4" terminals are sold with
reducers for 3/16" terminals, which also works.

I have had good luck with both Panasonic and Powersonic sealed lead-acid
batteries, and bad luck with everything else I've tried, including BB
Battery, UB, CSB, and Power Patrol. I'd be inclined to trust a Yuasa,
based on experience with their flooded batteries, but I have no
experience with their sealed lead-acid batteries. The local hardware
stores carry some (look for the emergency light / EXIT sign parts), a
local battery store may have them, the local electronics store will, or
you can order online from Digi-Key or Mouser. I checked Amazon and a
few sellers there are showing *pictures* of a Powersonic battery but
probably *shipping* some junk battery. Caveat emptor.

For a 7 Ah battery online, $23 to $32 plus shipping is a good price.
Locally, add $5 or so to that for shipping, plus however much the store
marks it up.

When you get a new battery, write the current date in marker on the new
battery and maybe on the inside of the alarm panel door.

> So, two things must be wrong:
> 1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
> 2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10989824356_41ff0ca903_o.gif

The capacitor (that blue cylinder) on the power supply sure is an
interesting shape. It shouldn't have that dent near the right end.

One test you can do: unplug W1 and W2 from the battery, unplug the
wires from J1 (PWR) and J2 (GND), and unplug any other wires from that
power supply. Measure the resistance between J1 and J2, and between
W1 and W2. If it's less than a few hundred ohms on either reading, the
power supply may be bad.

> Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
> could have blown the alarm system?

Maybe. Have you ever measured the AC line voltage in your house when
the generator starts up? Does it go a lot above 120 V on either leg?
132 V (120 V + 10%) is about as high as it *should* go for a sustained
period of time. If it's more than this, you have a problem. Also,
try measuring each 120 V leg as you or a helper turns a heavy 120 V
load, like a microwave oven, or a hair dryer or space heater on full,
on and off. You should usually see a slight voltage dip under load.
If the voltage goes *up* when the load is on, you might have a loose
neutral, which is bad. Call an electrician or the power company.

I think you have a combination of a marginal battery and a marginal
power supply (inside the alarm box). As long as AC power was on, it all
sort of worked. When you interrupted and restored the AC power, the
power supply or battery tried to draw too much current from the
transformer, which blew the fuse in the transformer, and may have also
finished off the power supply. Then, the alarm ran for as long as it
could on the battery, until it shut off for low battery voltage.

> Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

If you have to hire someone to fix it, don't hire whoever did that
wiring originally. It looks a mess.

Standard disclaimers apply: I don't get money or other consideration
from any companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds

[RobertMacy]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:09:53 -0700, Nightcrawlerￜ
<dirty...@dirtcheap.org> wrote:

>> ...snip...

> Replace the transformer. Fry's or Home Depot, off of Hamilton Ave West
> of Hwy 17 will be the closest location, other than some hard to find
> places in Campbell, to you.
>

Isn't that 880 now? changes where it crosses 101.

[Jon Elson]

Danny D'Amico wrote:


> If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
> but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
> Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
> volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
> (I don't know how to load it though):
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/10989888274_6ed9f59f77_o.gif
>
> So, two things must be wrong:
> 1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
> 2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10989824356_41ff0ca903_o.gif
>
> Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
> could have blown the alarm system?

I'm totally guessing here, but I think the transformer may have
blown when you tripped the generator, and the alarm ran on batteries
until they were exhausted. Then, the alarm shut down to prevent
destroying the battery. Although the 13.5 V seems really
high for a 12 V gel cell not being charged. So, there may be
another fault, such as a shorted rectifier in the alarm panel.
That would blow the transformer. But, then the panel should have
run off the battery for at least a while, and in the process
partially discharged the battery. So, it is a bit puzzling.

Jon

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 06:09:02 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?

I didn't see any; but they might be there...

Still, the transformer is definitely dead.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:19:17 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

> Isn't that 880 now? changes where it crosses 101.

I think it changes from 17 to 880 where it crosses the new 85.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmm,
If some thing shorted or popped or burned, you can smell it
and see it as well.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:12:21 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> Just start with replacing the x-former and battery.

I understand. The battery is probably at least 2 years old.
And the transformer is clearly shot.

> I strongly suspect battery is no good.

That's the funny thing. I would have expected the battery to run
the system until it was dead; but the open-circuit voltage was

good.

> When you check the voltage did you remove a lead from battery terminal
> since you mentioned no load voltage.

Yes. I checked the battery voltage with nothing attached, just as I had
checked the transformer resistance, also with all wires removed.

I also powered the transformer with an extension cord, and checked
the outputs, which were zero.

> Your battery is not holding charge so when x-former quit, it couldn't
> supply the necessary juice.

It might be that the battery was actually bad, but, it had enough
juice to run the DMM (which doesn't take all that much current).

[Phil Allison]

"Danny D'Amico"

> Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

> Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
> shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
> so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
> vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.
>
> I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.
>
> Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
> went totally dead.
>

> Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
> wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
> transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
> plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
> three screws on the secondary windings:
> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

** There must be a fuse inside that unit - wired in series with the 16.5V
secondary.

> If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
> but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

** It's probably worn out .

> Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
> volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

** Open circuit testing a gell cell tells you nothing.

> (I don't know how to load it though):

> So, two things must be wrong:
> 1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
> 2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/10989824356_41ff0ca903_o.gif

** The voltages on the transformer went high enough to cause a big increase
in current and fuse failure, maybe something inside the alarm box failed
too.

> Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.


... Phil

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 06:37:01 -0800, mike wrote:

> Transformers often have thermal fuses inside them.
> But the ones I've replaced were in the primary.

This is a pretty common transformer based on a quick google search
for the ELK TRG1640 (16.5VAC, 45VA).

They have a green LED, which no longer lights in my busted
transformer.

Interestingly, this PDF specification sheet intimates the
secondary is "auto fused" (whatever that means):
http://www.elkproducts.com/_literature_63744/P1216,TRG1640,TRG2440_Data_Sheet

[Phil Allison]

"Danny D'Amico"

** Might seem clever to crosspost and then direct all replies to one NG -
but it ain't.

Cos no-body on "sci.electronics.repair" can see any replies at all.

And that is really stupid and annoying.
-----------------------------------------


.... Phil

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:58:18 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> Look closely at the blue electrolytic
> capacitor on the module circuit board. It looks swollen and electrolytic
> capacitors can dry out and become a short circuit, especially if they're
> 22 years old. ^_^

The electrolytic capacitor did look a little schmushed!
It was pressed up against the transister, so I bent it away from the
transistor.

BTW, I just noticed the power supply has a "lifetime limited warranty".
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg1640-ac-transformer-16-5-vac-45-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal

I wonder what that means...

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 07:35:36 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

> Aren't the built-in fuse links
> inside those transformers in the primary, not the secondary?

Here it says for my ELK-TRG1640 transformer:
• Auto-Resetting (PTC) Fused Secondary

http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg1640-ac-transformer-16-5-vac-45-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:54:59 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> If some thing shorted or popped or burned, you can smell it
> and see it as well.

I should mention that I was pretty sure I smelled burnt "plastic", but,
since the garage door was open, I wasn't sure if it was coming from
outside, as it was windy, or if it was from the garage.

But, the smell *was* within minutes of the alarm wailing three loud
beeps before dying an untimely death.

The funny thing though, was that the Generac accident was the day
before, so, if it burned up at the time I smelled the burnt plastic
smell, that was a day after I had messed with the main breaker panel.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:00:25 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

> ** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.

That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
power the system adequately.

I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
"limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described here:
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg2440-ac-transformer-24-vac-40-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal

Anyone ever take them up on their "limited" lifetime warranty?
http://www.elkproducts.com/_literature_63744/P1216,TRG1640,TRG2440_Data_Sheet

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:04:21 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

> ** Might seem clever to crosspost and then direct all replies to one NG -
> but it ain't.
> Cos no-body on "sci.electronics.repair" can see any replies at all.
> And that is really stupid and annoying.

I apologize. As the record shows (in alt.free.newsservers), I had a problem with
aioe.org triplicating posts, which, after a while, caused aioe to drop all posts
due to "too many errors". Pan, my news client, didn't tell me, so, all posts
were lost.

So, I didn't have access to aioe.

When I asked what to do, people said to switch to Solani. But, Solani *forces* you
to have a single followup! You can't possibly have a followup to the groups you posted
to. I asked alt.free.newsservers *why* Solani does that, and, the answer came back
they can do whatever they want (so, the point is, that it doesn't make any sense).

I can't win either way.

After a few days, Aioe let me back in (this is a recurring theme with them); so,
hopefully, this will get to both groups (and also alt.free.newsservers) because
I'll send it via aioe.

Of course, it could just go nowhere ... and I'll never know, because Pan won't warn
me until it's too late (but that's in another thread to news.software.nntp).

[Phil Allison]

"Danny D'Amico"

>Phil Allison wrote:
>
>> ** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.
>
> That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
> power the system adequately.
>
> I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
> "limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described here:
> http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-trg2440-ac-transformer-24-vac-40-va-auto-resetting-grounding-prong-and-terminal

** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
overload damage.

PTCs self reset once they cool down.

IME a tranny that is well made, moisture sealed and has a PTC in the output
ought to last 10 to 20 years.



.... Phil

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:42:54 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

> ** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
> that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Me neither. I'll call them on Monday (they're not open weekends).

> Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
> overload damage.
> PTCs self reset once they cool down.

It has had plenty of time to cool down!
I think the burnt plastic smell gives me a clue. :)

[Caulki...@work.com]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 17:59:43 +0000 (UTC), mrob...@att.net wrote:

>
>The capacitor (that blue cylinder) on the power supply sure is an
>interesting shape. It shouldn't have that dent near the right end.

I agree, I'd replace it.

[The Daring Dufas]

The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
Temperature Coefficient" fuses. As I recall, that type of fuse is a
conductive matrix inside a polymer which expands when heated thus
raising the resistance of the fuse to that of a high value resistor.
As long as the power is on, there is enough enough current flowing
through it to keep it warm enough to present a high resistance. When the
current flow through it ceases, the fuse cools off and the resistance
drops to a low value until the current exceeds it's designed cut off.
Any gear with a PTC fuse will shut down until power is removed
allowing the fuse to reset. The old transformer you have has a short
piece of tiny wire attached in series to the secondary winding of the
transformer and it will melt when the current exceeds that which the
tiny wire will handle. It's a safety device to prevent overheating of
the transformer and the possibility of a fire. That module between the
battery and power leads is a battery saver which cuts the connection to
the battery when the voltage drops to a predetermined value which the
battery will not recover from if it's completely drained. I believe the
blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module may not work. It
could have presented a short circuit to the power transformer which
popped the fusible link. It's been a while since I did a lot of work in
the alarm industry but the basics haven't changed very much. There a guy
who posts here and in several groups who currently works in the alarm
business and I could find him and try to get him to respond to your
post. ^_^

TDD

[Hot-Text]

Alarm system transformer + power supply
(would both go bad at once?)
NO

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
As well as float charging battery.

[Nightcrawler®]

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:f9fd1958-bc5b-49b2...@googlegroups.com...

>
> Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts

LOL! I don't think I have ever seen a battery, showing full charge, be
bad. It might not last long, but that is not the issue, here.

Properly maintained, a gel battery will last for a very long time. The
problem is the charging circuits really don't maintain and tend to die
without notice. You will find this in exit signs with emergency lighting.
Everyone I have ever checked had a dead battery along with a dead charging
board. Yanked and LED replacement installed with better electronics.

Cost more, but it works. Now, convincing the facility maintenance manager
to have them self, or someone, do an annual check on that little test button
on the buggers, instead of waiting for a power failure to clue them in on the
fact that the thing does not work.

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <da...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l6om5a$sos$2...@solani.org...

> On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:19:17 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:
>
>> Isn't that 880 now? changes where it crosses 101.
>
> I think it changes from 17 to 880 where it crosses the new 85.
>

HWY 17 turns into 880 at 280.

[Nightcrawler®]

I was thinking about this and was wondering if the transformer was
on its way out, anyway, or if the generator presented an open neutral
situation on start-up. Maybe a combination of the two.

I had a messenger cable break at one of my old homes, and without
actually getting up on the roof and inspecting it, one would have
never noticed the break. Anyway, pretty much every non-protected
wall-wart in the house fried. Thankfully, the important ones were
on a UPS. I could care less about the phone and the foo foo crap
in the bathroom. :-)

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Saturday, November 23, 2013 1:01:04 AM UTC-5, Nightcrawler® wrote:
> <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:f9fd1958-bc5b-49b2...@googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts
>
>
>
> LOL! I don't think I have ever seen a battery, showing full charge, be
>
> bad. It might not last long, but that is not the issue, here.
>
>

Exactly. And even if it is bad, you don't need to buy a new one,
as has been suggested to find out. Danny has a meter. If he hooks
it up and it still measures around 12V and the alarm doesn't power
up, it's *not* the battery. Also, if the alarm is totally screwed,
there is no sense in wasting money on a new battery. A new panel
typically comes with a battery included.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 00:01:04 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

>> Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts
>
> LOL! I don't think I have ever seen a battery, showing full charge, be
> bad. It might not last long, but that is not the issue, here.

That's my experience also.
For example, a fully-charged d-cell will be something around 1.65VDC, and,
if it's low, it will be something around 1.4VDC (give or take) but not
over its nominal charge of 1.5VDC.

Then again, the loading test is more accurate; but you have to know the
load and you have to start with a fully-charged battery, so it's harder
to accomplish.

[tra...@optonline.net]

In your case, it's very easy to establish if the battery is the
problem or not. Measure the voltage with it connected to the alarm.

[Tony Hwang]

Have you ever worked on car charging system and battery? If battery
shows mere 12V it is a toast. Charging voltage is around 14V as you
know. And in this case hi Z Fluke is not a good choice, use something
like Simpson 260. If I were you I'd replace x-former and battery and
start from there. If you want, put a in-line fuse and protect them in
case. You can talk and and talk and scratch your head all day and
it is not gonna get fixed.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:19:06 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
> Temperature Coefficient" fuses.

Ah. I see. Mine is at least ten (maybe twenty?) years older.

> The old transformer you have has a short piece of tiny wire attached
> in series to the secondary winding of the transformer

That would explain why it blew once, and then died.
I did smell burnt plastic; but the garage doors were open so it
dissipated too quickly for me to identify from where. It was only
a while later, after testing it, that I realized the power
transformer had blown.

> I believe the blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module
> may not work. It could have presented a short circuit to the power
> transformer which popped the fusible link.

I guess the good news is that the newer transformer will survive that,
if when I put it in, that's the case of the shorted power circuit.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:

> Alarm system transformer + power supply
> (would both go bad at once?)
> NO

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:

1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif

2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif

3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif

4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

This makes no sense to me; but I'm not an EE.

Does this (repeatable) information above tell us anything about
the power supply or battery?

Note: This dent in the capacitor was due to it being pressed
down against the transistor (I pushed it away):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/11012334393_cd136e612d_o.gif

[tra...@optonline.net]

Don't screw around with testing it with a new transformer, buying
a transformer, battery, etc. You have a battery that reads 13.5
volts without a load. Put it in the alarm. If the alarm doesn't power
up and the battery still reads around 12V, you know there is more
wrong than the transformer. Then you have two choices. Either find
out what's wrong with the alarm and fix it, or buy a new panel.
And if you wind up having to buy a new panel, they typically come
with a battery and charger.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:20:19 -0700, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

A Simpson 260 isn't good, by itself, either. At 20K/V, it's not going
to provide a significant load. A resistor (pick your poison,
depending on battery) and any hi-z meter will work better. There is
nothing magic about Simpson 260s.

I'd measure before replacing anything, though the battery is likely
toast no matter what else is bad. Don't replace it until you're sure
that's the only thing that's gone.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:02:58 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> In your case, it's very easy to establish if the battery is the
> problem or not. Measure the voltage with it connected to the alarm.

The strangest thing happened when I took you up on your suggestion!

A. The battery, connected to the power supply, was 12.87 volts:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3785/11012332223_24ba3777a7_o.gif

B. I also read 12.87 volts at the very edge of the power supply,
so, the wires are good:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/11012105955_96364f93f1_o.gif

C. I then got 12.87 volts between the battery and the GND spade on
the power supply board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif

D. But, the strangest thing is there is no voltage between the
battery and the PWR spade of the power supply:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of those conflicting results.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:20:19 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> Have you ever worked on car charging system and battery?

Yes. 13.8 volts is "normal" for an open-circuit voltage.
The voltage is highest after charging, and then goes down, over
time, depending on the type of battery.

> If I were you I'd replace x-former and battery and start from there.

I have no qualms about replacing stuff, but, I am trying to
debug first, *what* needs to be replaced (other than the transformer,
which is on order).

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
the inputs.

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l6qmmh$usg$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:48:11 -0600, Hot-Text wrote:
>
>> Alarm system transformer + power supply
>> (would both go bad at once?)
>> NO
>
> I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
>

<snip>

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

What connects to this connector?

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

[Nightcrawler®]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message news:l6qoqr$46s$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

[The Daring Dufas]

That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
saver module. The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
out and is what blew the transformer. If you or one of your friends can
repair circuit boards, get him/her/it to take a look at it because it's
a fairly simple circuit. I would remove the module and hook the panel's
power leads directly to the battery. Hopefully, the battery charging
circuit on the panel's circuit board is not damaged. ^_^

TDD

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

> I'd measure before replacing anything, though the battery is likely
> toast no matter what else is bad. Don't replace it until you're sure
> that's the only thing that's gone.

That's exactly how I'm (trying to) handle it.

I don't have any problem replacing anything that tests bad; but, just
throwing parts at a problem isn't what I'm trying to do.

Of course, that means I need to look closely at the circuit board, as
that's the first step of any diagnostic procedure.

Looking at the BOTTOM of the circuit board, I find something
interesting at each end of the electrolytic capacitor leads:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/11013129635_251c6ff9ec_o.gif

It almost seems as if the capacitor overheated, but, it it not
an open circuit:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/11013119175_dfa5301efd_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:32:11 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> Right now, I'm trying to figure out why the power supply board
> has 0 volts across the PWR and GND pins, even with 13 volts at
> the inputs.

I just realized, that's *not* a power supply board!
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5536/11013239006_7ef98f0bb4_o.gif

It says it's a "D135A Low Battery Disconnect", part number
79-04360401 (where the last 4 and last 1 might be another digit).

Googling, I find these datasheets:
http://resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Data_sheet_enUS_2548187915.pdf
http://www.boschsecurity.com.br/_archivos_productos_sitios_la/documentos/intrusion/EN/d135a_description_0910_en.pdf

Which say:
"The D135A works with compatible control panels to protect the
battery from deep discharge in the event of an extended AC
power outage. Disconnects the control panel from the battery
when the battery level drops to 9.5 VDC."

I find an installation guide here, which explains that the sticky tape
is because the module is supposed to be stuck onto the top of the battery:
http://tinyurl.com/p74he4t

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:41:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

> The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
> will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
> functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
> the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:29:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> That module attached between the battery and the panel is a battery
> saver module.

You are correct! I had thought it was a "power supply" but it's not.
A sticker says it's a "D135A low battery disconnect", which is
apparently supposed to be sticky-taped to the top of the battery.

Googling, it's a 9.5 volt cutoff (as you said, to save the battery
from a deep discharge). I'm surprised you could tell that from
where you sit, because I only just realized that myself now.

> The panel will work without it and I believe it's shorted
> out and is what blew the transformer.

You seem to be familiar with this stuff but I must ask:

What is the "it" in the sentence above? The battery?
Or the low-battery protection board?

> I would remove the module and hook the panel's power leads
> directly to the battery.

Before I do this, may I clarify the suggestion?

Should I remove the D135A low-battery protection board, and then,
connect the battery directly to the black and red power leads of
the Radionics D2212B (LT) circuit board?

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

>>I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
>> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif
>>
>>And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
>> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/11014840755_8169e24a57_o.gif
>>
>>And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
>> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/11014945176_770ebeea29_o.gif
>

>> I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:

>>1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
>> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/11012106735_6462c93b69_o.gif
>>2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
>> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/11012333553_83db5107c8_o.gif
>>3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
>> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/11012206866_fdcb4a46a6_o.gif
>>4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
>> http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/11012206746_15cf8b97f4_o.gif
>

> What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
> capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/11013315874_62a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/11013352723_e91013b313_o.gif

> What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?

J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

> That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
> to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
> deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/11013237706_28045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/10989885984_72d64103f6_o.gif

> So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
> vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/11016175513_af16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/11016128584_20e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/11016174693_48beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/11015955585_26a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/11016126814_909b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11016173493_914e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?

[RTS]

Dud, it looks to me like you got a bad module..
the Cap is bad just to look at, and since you need the relay to close to
pass the voltage to the terminals, anything in that hold-in circuit that’s
bad will disable that..
discard the module, if you still need a low voltage disconnect feature,
try
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-catalog/elk-965-low-battery-cutoff-and-master-power-switch
the Elk 965 will disconnect the power when voltage drops below its threshold
..

rts

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news:l6r5lv$4a2$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
First of all, did you check the battery by hooking up a 12V automotive
bulb to really see it is holding good charge at 12V? Secondly remove one
leg of diodes and check them, one may be Zener type. do the same with
capacitor. Remove any two legs off the circuit and check that
transistor. The other K1 is a relay, you can check it same way.
Then go to next step which you are trying to do now. First thing first.
If you can find a URL for schematic, it'll be lot easier to TS.

No power supply on your work bench? If so you can use it as well.
I have a lab. grade power supply with several commonly used voltage o/p.
Very handy item to have.

[The Daring Dufas]

"It" is the low battery disconnect. Connect the power leads you remove
from the D135A directly to the battery to see if your system operates.
I haven't worked exclusively in the alarm industry for many years but I
would get into alarms from time to time. Your alarm system is at least
21 years old. The date code on the small round bridge rectifier on the
circuit board looks like it was manufactured in 1992. ^_^

TDD

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:50:17 -0600, RTS wrote:

> Dude, it looks to me like you got a bad module..

It seems that all three test bad:
1. The transformer has an open secondary
2. The low-voltage protection module has an open cap
3. The alarm system simply beeps when I plug in 12VDC

I plugged the 13.5V battery, without the ELK TRG1640 ac charger and
without the D135A low-voltage-protection board, into the
Radionics D2212B alarm system board.

The alarm beeped continuously, without any other indication of
working, and the current I measured was 98 ma continuous:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

Can all that really happen simply by shutting off the 200Amp main
breaker without also turning off the automatic power generator?

[Nightcrawler®]

http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/D2212B%20Installation%20Manual.pdf

[The Daring Dufas]

It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
manufactured in 1998. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

On 11/23/2013 3:11 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler� wrote:
>
>>> I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
>>> http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/11014946826_4ecdea2144_o.gif
>>>

Looking at your picture, right above where the transformer leads connect
to the terminal strip, there is an electrolytic capacitor right above a
small bridge rectifier. I can't quite tell but the capacitor could be
swollen and shorted. The 3 terminal voltage regulator is above that
capacitor attached to the aluminum plate heat sink. Those are the main
components of the AC to DC power supply and if one of them is shorted,
that could kill the power transformer. ^_^

TDD

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:39:07 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

> http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/D2212B%20Installation%20Manual.pdf

That's a very nice find, especially since three things appear to have been blown
when I turned the power off without turning off the generator:

1. The ELK TRG140 16.5V AC transformer secondary windings are now open
2. The D135A battery-protection board cap is apparently blown
3. The Radionics D2212B alarm circuit board is apparently malfunctioning

The test of the Radionics board was to hook the battery directly to
the power and ground leads. That drew 98ma and the alarm system merely
beeped an incessant single beeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for the entire time that
I left the battery connected.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:41:36 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
> Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
> manufactured in 1998. ^_^

There were unused leads for two batteries, so, I suspect there were
two batteries in series initially. The battery in there now doesn't
look all that old. The equipment was made in the 90s as you surmised.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:23:09 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> "It" is the low battery disconnect. Connect the power leads you remove
> from the D135A directly to the battery to see if your system operates.

That is the most direct test I could have run, so, following your advice,
I took the power and ground leads coming out of the alarm system board
and plugged them directly into the battery, which was at 13.5 volts.

The current draw was 98 ma.

But the only thing that happened was the alarm system made a single
beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep that lasted the entire
time that the battery was connected.

I tried this, multiple times, for no longer than the time it took to
snap this picture though, as I didn't want to ruin anything further.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:10:37 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

> Looking at your picture, right above where the transformer leads connect
> to the terminal strip, there is an electrolytic capacitor right above a
> small bridge rectifier. I can't quite tell but the capacitor could be
> swollen and shorted. The 3 terminal voltage regulator is above that
> capacitor attached to the aluminum plate heat sink. Those are the main
> components of the AC to DC power supply and if one of them is shorted,
> that could kill the power transformer. ^_^

I'm surprised you knew *where* the transformer leads entered the board,
because I didn't say, so, but I see what you're talking about.

Also, I'm surprised you knew that was a bridge rectifier, because, well,
because I didn't - but - looking at it from the side, I can see four
uninsulated legs, which indicate it has four leads, one of which is
marked "+".

Here is the same picture, but, with a few things marked that I know of
(including the electrolytic capacitor I think you're talking about):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5486/11018768016_8962578375_o.png

I looked and touched and that cap seems OK visually; but, of course,
it's probably 20 years old...

For the first time, I'm wondering if it's not just a new transformer,
but, that I probably need to replace the entire board...

[doug]

>
> For the first time, I'm wondering if it's not just a new transformer,
> but, that I probably need to replace the entire board...
>

You could try www.tech-man.com for a used replacement board, bearing in mind
that any used replacement board is likely to be close to the same age as
yours.

I would tend to upgrade to a current system.

Doug

[Michael A. Terrell]

It's more likely that there were problems, and the situation wouldn't
let it start working again.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 17:11:27 -0800, doug wrote:

> I would tend to upgrade to a current system.

Any recommendations, given my goal would be to use all the existing
equipment except the board itself and the power supply?

[tra...@optonline.net]

I think you're screwed. But I like the meter. I have the same one,
going on 30 years now.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 05:59:05 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

>> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/11017175664_eb4f8a7d31_o.gif
>
> I think you're screwed. But I like the meter. I have the same one,
> going on 30 years now.

Yeah. I've blown the 'bar' inside for the 10A fuse (my fault) and,
I've had to replace the disc-shaped battery once (or twice?) but
mine has to be from the early or mid 80s and it's still going
strong.

It's strange that all three things are bad:
1. The power transformer secondary blew open
2. The battery-tender capacitor overheated
3. The main circuit board isn't working

I wonder what my options are ...

[tra...@optonline.net]

If you can verify that the board has proper power on it from
a battery and it's still not working, I'd say it's time to buy
a new panel. You can get them for $150 or so.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 05:34:00 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

> If you can verify that the board has proper power on it from
> a battery and it's still not working, I'd say it's time to buy
> a new panel. You can get them for $150 or so.

That's probably what I'm going to have to do.

Meanwhile, ELK called me back and explained the "limited" part
of the "lifetime warranty" on the AC transformer. The service
technician said mine has a PTC fuse in the secondary.

He said ELK will replace it for free as long as it was used
within the specifications of the device, e.g., in an approved
alarm system (which it was).

They told me I could send it to them, or, I could contact these
local "trade distributors" to see if they would work with a
homeowner:
1. Home Tech Solution 408-257-4406
2. Custom Electronics Supply 408-452-8300
3. http://smarthome.com 800-762-7846

So, at the very least, I'll get the transformer replaced,
under warranty, by one of those four. Also, I'll ask all of
them how much they sell the board I need.

BTW, must I get the exact same board?
Or can *any* alarm system board suffice?

[doug]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message

news:l6vtsq$lnu$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 05:34:00 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> BTW, must I get the exact same board?
> Or can *any* alarm system board suffice?
>

You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).

If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
with the new panel.

Doug

[tra...@optonline.net]

I would not replace just the board, unless you can find
the exact replacement at a good price. I would replace the
alarm panel.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:41:54 -0800, doug wrote:

> You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
> OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).
>
> If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
> with the new panel.

I do have smoke alarms but don't know how they're wired.

Likewise, I have motion detectors and mostly hard-wired door/window
switches, but some are wireless (the repair ones mostly).

I called a few outfits today looking for the D2212B(LT) control board:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Apparently Bosch (who bought Radionics) won't sell to a consumer, so I'll
need to get the D2212B board from either a distributor or dealer.

They retail about $100 to $125 but they're almost all out of stock on
the web pages that I've found them listed.

If I buy a new board that is not the D2212B, am I to conclude I *must*
go with Bosch/Radionics since I do have wireless devices?

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:03:16 -0800, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

>
> I would not replace just the board, unless you can find
> the exact replacement at a good price. I would replace the
> alarm panel.

Replacing the alarm panel is fine by me, but, I spoke to someone
at Bosch who said that the "frequencies are different" for each
manufacturer.

Is that true?

Seems to me that an alarm system as a simple job. If the switch
is open, ring the alarm.

Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

Is it true that only a Bosch/Radionics panel will work with
Bosch/Radionics controllers and Bosch/Radionics switches
and motion and smoke detectors?

[Oren]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:28:38 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
>and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with the
dollar bill? $

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

> I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with
> the dollar bill? $

You're not kidding!

I called Bosch/Radionics at 800-538-5807 who told me they have plenty
of D2212B(LT) boards in stock (the LT, they told me, simply means it
comes without the external transformer in the kit).

But they can't sell them to me. They told me to go to Anixer or ADI.

So, I call Anixer at 925-469-8500, who says they can't sell the board
to me, due to their legal agreements. I have to get it from a contractor
as a "pass-through" (whatever that means).

So, this seems to be the path of the board:
Bosch/Radionics sells it to Anixer who sells it to the pass-through
contractor who sells it to me.

I wonder what the markup is each time?

Anyway, now I am looking for a "pass though" contractor, whatever that
means. I mean, I realize it's an "installer"; but, I don't want an
installer. I want a pass-through guy to just send me the board.

What do I google for?
(The Anixer guys couldn't tell me.)

Now for the ADI guys ... 800.233.6261 ... ... they won't sell it to
me either. I need a contractor's license. Sheesh.

It's getting to be harder to get a stinkin' alarm system replacement
board than it was to get garage door torsion springs! :)

Does anyone know how I can find a "pass through" contractor?

[Tony Hwang]

Hmmm,
If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
You are thinking analog, now most any thing is digital. Even reelays
are solid state devies, no electro mechanical things.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Run an ad on Kijiji saying you are looking for an alarm tech who could
help your situation. If some one respond, deal is no fix, no pay.
Lot of legit guys do a side job when he is off regular work.
I am lucky if I had a situation like that, just phone my old buddies
still on the job. They will send some one to help me out or give me some
thing I need. I retired from Honeywell. They have building protection
division.

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Normally I don't throw parts at a problem.

But,
1. The transformer is clearly bad (open secondary).
So I have one on order and another coming in via warranty repair.
But, this is not mandatory for operation anyway.

2. The battery protection board clearly has a capacitor that has
melted leads on the underside. What I plan on doing there is
replacing the capacitor; but this is not an important board
for operation either.

3. When I put 12VDC to the main circuit board, it beeps a long
beep, and nothing else happens.

So, what does that tell me?

It *could* be that the board simply needs to be "reset", so, I'll
read all the manuals I found here:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Or, it could be that the battery is bad. So, I'll charge the battery
and test it under load, to see if that's the problem (but I don't
think it is simply because the board is only drawing 100ma at 12VDC).

Or, it could be that the D2212B circuit board is bad. If that's the
case, I'll try to troubleshoot it by testing where the power goes
when I plug in the battery.

But, the board should only cost about $100 so it's not all that bad
to just replace it. Bosch says they have plenty in stock, so, all I
have to do is find someone who will sell them to me as a pass through:

Bosch sells the board to ADI or to Anixer, who then sells it to a

pass-through contractor who sells it to me.

If the board doesn't work, then I'd be surprised; but it would then
be time to replace the entire shebang.

[Oren]

Some things are proprietary; only sold to those in the specific trade.

I went through this at work one time.

Find your local <http://www.grainger.com> store.

Ask if they have what you need or if they can order it.

Tell them you are from the "government". Pay in cash using; say,
Forestry Service or some such.

They will sell under that account with cash money.

Example: I stated my agency, which did not have an account, but the
guy found another agency and sold it to me using that account for a
cash purchase.

Worth a try...

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:57:04 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> You are thinking analog, now most any thing is digital. Even reelays
> are solid state devies, no electro mechanical things.

I'm ok with simply replacing the Bosch/Radionics D2212BLT board
(where the LT simply means the board kit came without the transformer).

Bosch has plenty in stock, but they won't sell them to me.
ADI & Anixer will only sell them to a contractor.

I just had a long conversation with the guys at http://obsoleteradionics.com
who will try to get the board for me (they say it's the most common
board out there).

Jeeesuz. Bosch has this market locked up tight!

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:04:11 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

> But, the board should only cost about $100 so it's not all that bad
> to just replace it. Bosch says they have plenty in stock, so, all I
> have to do is find someone who will sell them to me as a pass through:

I can get the board for $104 but it's out of stock.
The retail is $169, I'm told.
So, now, all I need to do is find the board in that price range
from a "pass through" guy who has a Bosch agreement.

You'd think this would be the easy part! :)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:13:30 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Tell them you are from the "government".

Wow. Gotta try that trick!

[Bob La Londe]

Yes. Voltage spike, lightning strike, leg dropped across from power
company, or some moron accidentally touching the neutral in the breaker box
to the other leg of the incoming power. They can cause both to fail. All
are sudden over voltage conditions.


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Oren]

I was being honest. To save time I went downtown and bought the
"proprietary" part (restricted to the trade).

The electrician could have just as well done the same thing. The part
came from my office budget, so I went because I needed the electrician
on the job - nothing from his budget.

Took cash issued from the business office cashier :)

[Oren]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Um, spend more money?

[tm]

"Danny D'Amico" <dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:l70glr$9s9$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Where are you located?

Maybe someone on this list with electronic skills can take a look at it and
maybe repair the board(s).

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 18:04:55 -0500, tm wrote:

> Where are you located?
>
> Maybe someone on this list with electronic skills can take a look at it and
> maybe repair the board(s).

Silicon Valley, of all places. :)

I find it hard to believe THREE things would go bad at once.

I can run rudimentary tests on the D2212B board, but, what
I need to do is read all the PDFs I found to see if any
offer advice as to whether there is a RESET.

There's a reset button on the wall controllers,
but, they don't power up with the battery in place
so, *something* is wrong.

If it's a simple board reset, that's what I'll look for first.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmmm,
Sorry to say this, I think you don't have basic logic TS skill and
expertise/experience. Can you use Huntron tester or simple Boolean
algebra for an example? One way of logical TS is process of elimination.
You did not eliminate anything yet. Ever heard of shot gun method?
When you are in a hurry, you do it based on your experience.
Or you'll never pin point what is wrong. I lived all my life from
Vacuum tube era in electronics as a hobby and career.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

[k...@attt.bizz]

Nice.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Tell them you're from the IRS. They'll give it to you. ;-)

[Oren]

I'll never forget the moment. Before the professor even said a word,
he used chalk on the blackboard to make a dollar sign ($).

"Everything centers around this!", he said.

His Cuban accent was so difficult to understand, I ask my wife to
attend class with me one night. Even she could not understand what he
was saying.

...but most everything does center around the dollar

--
Q: Why do men get their great ideas in bed?
A: Because their plugged into a genius!

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

> Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Call someone who knows what they're doing?
That's why I'm asking here.

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!

:)

[Danny D'Amico]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

> ...but most everything does center around the dollar

After a half dozen phone calls today, I see that Bosch has their distributors
and dealers locked up.

They won't even quote a price, even though they have plenty of these
boards in stock (it's the most common board, according to one guy).

The trick, just as it was with garage door torsion springs, is to find
the "pass through" supplier, like Dan Musick of DDM fame.

Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?

[Oren]

Did you call or check with Grainger, locally, as I mildly suggested?

There is more than one way to "skin a cat" :)

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:51:36 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
<da...@is.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:
>
>> Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?
>
>Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
>Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
>Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Um, the point is that the alarm system doesn't work.

>Call someone who knows what they're doing?
>That's why I'm asking here.

You can't be serious. Debugging electronics by long distance is
difficult, at best, and impossible if the person at the other end is
completely helpless.

>You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!

You have a bigger problem than even I suspected.