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Running Triplex indoors
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fred.fl...@thecave.com
Aug 9, 2012, 12:37:46 AM8/9/12
to
Just curious. I want to run power to a trailer house that I use for
storage. The nearest building is the barn. I'll be putting a post next
to the trailer and run triplex from barn to that post. But the breaker
box is on the opposite side of the barn. The barn is 60 feet long, so
that means at least 75 feet with the run from ceiling to the box, plus
connection ends. That heavy cable is not cheap. I have enough (used
but good) triplex to go from the pole to the barn, and all the way thru
the barn to the breaker box. Is there any reason *not* to use the
triplex indoors? (I can run it thru gray plastic PVC conduit indoors).
That way I wontr even have to splice it at the top of the barn, just
connect it to the building via an insulator, and run the rest thru the
wall and in to the barn, with a weather head and drop loop to keep water
from following the wires inside.
I've never seen it used indoors, but it should be just as good (if not
better) than heavy duty romex type cable or single wires inside conduit.
storage. The nearest building is the barn. I'll be putting a post next
to the trailer and run triplex from barn to that post. But the breaker
box is on the opposite side of the barn. The barn is 60 feet long, so
that means at least 75 feet with the run from ceiling to the box, plus
connection ends. That heavy cable is not cheap. I have enough (used
but good) triplex to go from the pole to the barn, and all the way thru
the barn to the breaker box. Is there any reason *not* to use the
triplex indoors? (I can run it thru gray plastic PVC conduit indoors).
That way I wontr even have to splice it at the top of the barn, just
connect it to the building via an insulator, and run the rest thru the
wall and in to the barn, with a weather head and drop loop to keep water
from following the wires inside.
I've never seen it used indoors, but it should be just as good (if not
better) than heavy duty romex type cable or single wires inside conduit.
RBM
Aug 9, 2012, 7:11:57 AM8/9/12
to
structure or pipes. If you're using it as a feeder, you'll also need an
insulated neutral, even outdoors
TimR
Aug 9, 2012, 10:58:24 AM8/9/12
to
I don't know code.
I do know that when triplex has been yanked off my house by a storm and/or tree limbs it did considerable damage. I'd be careful where I routed it inside the barn and how I connected it and managed strain relief.
I do know that when triplex has been yanked off my house by a storm and/or tree limbs it did considerable damage. I'd be careful where I routed it inside the barn and how I connected it and managed strain relief.
Randy333
Aug 9, 2012, 2:06:03 PM8/9/12
to
amperage because they are conductors in free air to cool them. Not
allowed at all indoors IIRC. If you do use it, rate them as if it
were aluminum "romex".
Remove 333 to reply.
Randy
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Aug 9, 2012, 2:12:17 PM8/9/12
to
used as a feeder and the neutral is bare.
Unless I'm not understanding your use of the word "feeder". What I have
(and mostly all farms), is this. The pole transformer has large
triplex that goes to another pole. It enters conduit and goes down the
pole to a meter is on that pole. Below the meter is a box with the MAIN
disconnects for the entire farm, and includes a grounding rod. Wires
then run up the pole again, in another conduit. From there, several
overhead triplex cables go to different buildings. Each building has
it's own main disconnect as well as the smaller breakers. In my case,
there are four overhead cables coming from that meter pole. 1. The
house, 2. the main barn 3. the garage, which also sub-feeds to a smaller
barn and a work-shed 4. goes to a pole that used to feed a grain bin.
That bin has been removed, but the wires go to a small outdoor breaker
box on the pole with a GFI outlet under it (used in winter for a
livestock tank heater).
None of these overhead triplex cables have insulated neutrals.
Of course, this is old wiring. The most recent was installed in the
1990's, some is older. There were actually two more overhead cables
when I bought this farm. They were just dead ended, because they fed
buildings that had been demolished. The power company said they had to
be disconnected at the meter pole. Since they were being disconnected,
I removed them from the poles. (that is the wire I now have to be
used).
Every farm has a similar setup around here.....
Of course I suppose these are "grandfathered" older systems. Seems all
the new farms put all the wiring underground now....
Message has been deleted
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Aug 9, 2012, 7:07:49 PM8/9/12
to
On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:28:16 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>You are right, this is a new rule. There is nothing wrong with the may
>poles you have at a farm but they changed 250.32(B) and require a 4
>wire feeder to remote building.
>
I figured that this was another new rule. Seems that most of these new
rules are really senseless too. I guess the NEC has nothing better to do
than find ways to waste people's money.
I know, it's the rule and I'm supposed to adhere to it. But at the same
time, I really think the NEC has been going overboard in the last few
years with useless (costly) changes. I consider my present system very
safe as it is. Everything has a ground, there are GFI outlets where
they are needed, etc. But I already know that the NEC is kissing ass to
all the insurance assholes and lawyers in our lawsuit crazy society.
>It could be argued that this is not a building fed by another building
>so 250.32 (B) does not apply.
>
I could actually tap into the main overhead lines, and it would be
perfectly legal, but at my age, I dont like crawling up poles anymore,
and all I really want to do is get power to that trailer house (used for
storage), to run a few lights and an occasaional power tool. I intended
to run a double 30A breaker to it. The trailer has it's own fuse box.
Just like all trailer houses, they have a box, and are plugged into a
pole outlet by a 240 cord. The trailer is old and still has fuses. For
storage, that's fine. There wont be any heavy power use in there, just
lights and a window fan in summer.
Actually I presently have the trailer connected to a 100ft 16-3
extension cord, plugged in at the barn. I unplug it when not in use. I
had to combine the two sides of the 220 line inside the fuse box to do
this. This works ok for lights, but when I run a power saw, the lights
dim. I know this is not the safest setup, so thats the reason to wire
it more permanent.
>Just be sure you create a good grounding electrode system at the barn.
>If you are building the barn, use a Ufer ground. Bond to the rebar in
>the footing and the floor. Bring out a #4 solid and attach that to
>your disconnect grounding bus.
Ummmmmm, the barn *IS* wired and the barn is around 50 or 60 years old.
I rewired it completely in 2002, including replacing the old fuse box
with breakers, new ground rods and all new interior wires and fixtures,
including the GFI outlets. There is no rebar. The floor is dirt, the
footing is made of treated wooden poles (pole barn). None of the old
original wiring was used except the triplex that came to the building.
From the entrance head down, it's all new.
>You are right, this is a new rule. There is nothing wrong with the may
>poles you have at a farm but they changed 250.32(B) and require a 4
>wire feeder to remote building.
>
I figured that this was another new rule. Seems that most of these new
rules are really senseless too. I guess the NEC has nothing better to do
than find ways to waste people's money.
I know, it's the rule and I'm supposed to adhere to it. But at the same
time, I really think the NEC has been going overboard in the last few
years with useless (costly) changes. I consider my present system very
safe as it is. Everything has a ground, there are GFI outlets where
they are needed, etc. But I already know that the NEC is kissing ass to
all the insurance assholes and lawyers in our lawsuit crazy society.
>It could be argued that this is not a building fed by another building
>so 250.32 (B) does not apply.
>
I could actually tap into the main overhead lines, and it would be
perfectly legal, but at my age, I dont like crawling up poles anymore,
and all I really want to do is get power to that trailer house (used for
storage), to run a few lights and an occasaional power tool. I intended
to run a double 30A breaker to it. The trailer has it's own fuse box.
Just like all trailer houses, they have a box, and are plugged into a
pole outlet by a 240 cord. The trailer is old and still has fuses. For
storage, that's fine. There wont be any heavy power use in there, just
lights and a window fan in summer.
Actually I presently have the trailer connected to a 100ft 16-3
extension cord, plugged in at the barn. I unplug it when not in use. I
had to combine the two sides of the 220 line inside the fuse box to do
this. This works ok for lights, but when I run a power saw, the lights
dim. I know this is not the safest setup, so thats the reason to wire
it more permanent.
>Just be sure you create a good grounding electrode system at the barn.
>If you are building the barn, use a Ufer ground. Bond to the rebar in
>the footing and the floor. Bring out a #4 solid and attach that to
>your disconnect grounding bus.
Ummmmmm, the barn *IS* wired and the barn is around 50 or 60 years old.
I rewired it completely in 2002, including replacing the old fuse box
with breakers, new ground rods and all new interior wires and fixtures,
including the GFI outlets. There is no rebar. The floor is dirt, the
footing is made of treated wooden poles (pole barn). None of the old
original wiring was used except the triplex that came to the building.
From the entrance head down, it's all new.
Message has been deleted
Dean Hoffman
Aug 9, 2012, 10:52:55 PM8/9/12
to
On 8/9/12 6:07 PM, fred.fl...@thecave.com wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:28:16 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> You are right, this is a new rule. There is nothing wrong with the may
>> poles you have at a farm but they changed 250.32(B) and require a 4
>> wire feeder to remote building.
>>
> I figured that this was another new rule. Seems that most of these new
> rules are really senseless too. I guess the NEC has nothing better to do
> than find ways to waste people's money.
>
> I know, it's the rule and I'm supposed to adhere to it. But at the same
> time, I really think the NEC has been going overboard in the last few
> years with useless (costly) changes. I consider my present system very
> safe as it is. Everything has a ground, there are GFI outlets where
> they are needed, etc. But I already know that the NEC is kissing ass to
> all the insurance assholes and lawyers in our lawsuit crazy society.
Some cut.
> On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 15:28:16 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> You are right, this is a new rule. There is nothing wrong with the may
>> poles you have at a farm but they changed 250.32(B) and require a 4
>> wire feeder to remote building.
>>
> I figured that this was another new rule. Seems that most of these new
> rules are really senseless too. I guess the NEC has nothing better to do
> than find ways to waste people's money.
>
> I know, it's the rule and I'm supposed to adhere to it. But at the same
> time, I really think the NEC has been going overboard in the last few
> years with useless (costly) changes. I consider my present system very
> safe as it is. Everything has a ground, there are GFI outlets where
> they are needed, etc. But I already know that the NEC is kissing ass to
> all the insurance assholes and lawyers in our lawsuit crazy society.
One reason for the four wire set up is to keep the actual earth from
acting as a neutral. Livestock are really sensitive to current flow
compared to humans. An animal drinking from a tank with a heater could
possibly feel the current flow. Dairies have had some problems.
The critters in either case can become part of an alternate neutral
path when there is a three wire circuit. Current flows through all
available paths in inverse proportion to the resistance. It doesn't
just follow the path of least resistance.
I don't have a code book handy to cite the article covering livestock
buildings. Proper grounding of those takes a lot more work.
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Aug 10, 2012, 1:29:43 AM8/10/12
to
On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 21:52:55 -0500, Dean Hoffman
<""dh0496\"@in*%ebr#&as$ka.com"> wrote:
>>
>> I know, it's the rule and I'm supposed to adhere to it. But at the same
>> time, I really think the NEC has been going overboard in the last few
>> years with useless (costly) changes. I consider my present system very
>> safe as it is. Everything has a ground, there are GFI outlets where
>> they are needed, etc. But I already know that the NEC is kissing ass to
>> all the insurance assholes and lawyers in our lawsuit crazy society.
>
> Some cut.
>
> One reason for the four wire set up is to keep the actual earth from
>acting as a neutral. Livestock are really sensitive to current flow
>compared to humans. An animal drinking from a tank with a heater could
>possibly feel the current flow. Dairies have had some problems.
> The critters in either case can become part of an alternate neutral
>path when there is a three wire circuit. Current flows through all
>available paths in inverse proportion to the resistance. It doesn't
>just follow the path of least resistance.
> I don't have a code book handy to cite the article covering livestock
>buildings. Proper grounding of those takes a lot more work.
Some years back I had a horse that became ill because of dehydration
<""dh0496\"@in*%ebr#&as$ka.com"> wrote:
>>
>> I know, it's the rule and I'm supposed to adhere to it. But at the same
>> time, I really think the NEC has been going overboard in the last few
>> years with useless (costly) changes. I consider my present system very
>> safe as it is. Everything has a ground, there are GFI outlets where
>> they are needed, etc. But I already know that the NEC is kissing ass to
>> all the insurance assholes and lawyers in our lawsuit crazy society.
>
> Some cut.
>
> One reason for the four wire set up is to keep the actual earth from
>acting as a neutral. Livestock are really sensitive to current flow
>compared to humans. An animal drinking from a tank with a heater could
>possibly feel the current flow. Dairies have had some problems.
> The critters in either case can become part of an alternate neutral
>path when there is a three wire circuit. Current flows through all
>available paths in inverse proportion to the resistance. It doesn't
>just follow the path of least resistance.
> I don't have a code book handy to cite the article covering livestock
>buildings. Proper grounding of those takes a lot more work.
during the winter. I had the vet out and was told that the problem was
dehydration. Ony this horse had the problem. Other horses in a
different location did not. He had plenty of water and a tank heater.
I gave him a 5 gallon pail of water and he drank it like he had not
drank in a week. I went to his heated tank, touched the water and I got
a slight shock. Removing the tank heater stopped the shock. I bought a
new tank heater, installed it, and once again I got a shock. I knew the
electric company had a program to check for stray voltage on farms.
They came out and said that I did not have that problem, but for some
reason they could not explain, that tank did shock, and their meter
proved it. They told me to call an electrician. I returned the new
heater, got another one and the same problem. Using my own digital
meter, I could see a slight voltage.
Even though I consider myself a capable electrician, I called an
electrician and explained the problem, telling him I was only asking for
advice, before having him come out. (He's a relative of a friend of
mine). He told me that before he came out, to try another outlet. I
did, (had to run a long extension cord), and the problem was gone.
The solution was. Replace the GFI outlet. I still dont understand the
cause, but somehow the GFI was allowing a trickle of live power thru the
ground wire, instead of tripping. The GFI was replaced and the problem
was gone. Except that the horse refused to drink from that tank. (They
dont forget). I had to buy a different tank, (different type and
color), and move the location of it. Problem solved.
How this happened I still dont understand, but every fall when I install
the tank heaters, I hook a meter to the tank to check. This has never
happened again. This turned out to be a costly lesson, after the cost
of the vet, new tank, new heater, etc. All because of that damn GFI.
At least the horse was ok and is still fine today.
In the end, I know that I dont have any stray voltage around here, even
with electric fencing. That's one thing good about my power company,
they do these stray voltage tests for free. I did contact them later
and explain about the bad GFI. They said that's the first time they
ever heard of such a thing...... I said "same here".
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Aug 10, 2012, 1:32:35 AM8/10/12
to
On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 20:25:35 -0400, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>I would drive 2 rods 6-8 feet apart, under your disconnect, use the
>triplex you have, install a little panel and get on with your life.
>
That's what I plan to do. Put the pole by the trailer, install a
disconect box, ground rods, and 240 outlet as they do at all trailer
parks. This was not meant to be a costly operation, simply for a
storage trailer.
>I would drive 2 rods 6-8 feet apart, under your disconnect, use the
>triplex you have, install a little panel and get on with your life.
>
That's what I plan to do. Put the pole by the trailer, install a
disconect box, ground rods, and 240 outlet as they do at all trailer
parks. This was not meant to be a costly operation, simply for a
storage trailer.
Evan
Aug 10, 2012, 5:09:09 PM8/10/12
to
On Aug 10, 1:32 am, fred.flintst...@thecave.com wrote:
Why not locate this "storage trailer" near the pole
with the breaker box already on it where the
"grain bin" used to be ?
Hmm, then you need no new feeder wires and would
just be reconfiguring the outlets from that existing
breaker box...
That sounds to be the cheapest option to me but
other than being informed of your situation by
the brief descriptions you have offered here it
is difficult to tell if this solution would best fullfill
your needs...
with the breaker box already on it where the
"grain bin" used to be ?
Hmm, then you need no new feeder wires and would
just be reconfiguring the outlets from that existing
breaker box...
That sounds to be the cheapest option to me but
other than being informed of your situation by
the brief descriptions you have offered here it
is difficult to tell if this solution would best fullfill
your needs...
fred.fl...@thecave.com
Aug 11, 2012, 5:13:11 AM8/11/12
to
Plus that spot where the grain bin used to be, becomes a steep hill
right behind where the bin was, and in front of it, is the roadway to
the property and neighbors place (shared road). There's just not enough
room there. Thanks.
Evan
Aug 11, 2012, 1:47:40 PM8/11/12
to
begun without planning and your seeking
support for your idea to redneck engineer
it together at the location where the trailer
has already been located, rather than asking
or thinking about where it could go with a
small bit of forethought... Gotcha...
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