frequent pump runs

[mcdonnep]

Hie everyone. I have a submersible pump with a fl 7 composite bladder
tank. The pump turns on at 40 and off at 60. Every time I flush the
toilet, the pump turns on. Is this normal? I thought that the tank should
hold more that 1 toilets worth of water. I don't know how much the toilet
holds, house was built in 1991. Thanks in advance for the help.
mcdonnep

--
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[dpb]

On 8/17/2013 2:44 PM, mcdonnep wrote:
> Hie everyone. I have a submersible pump with a fl 7 composite bladder
> tank. The pump turns on at 40 and off at 60. Every time I flush the
> toilet, the pump turns on. Is this normal? I thought that the tank should
> hold more that 1 toilets worth of water. I don't know how much the toilet
> holds, house was built in 1991. Thanks in advance for the help.
> mcdonnep

The tank is waterlogged -- you can try draining it entirely (after
turning of pump, of oourse) and then checking the pressure. Should be 2
lb under the cut-in pressure -- 38 in your case.

See if that will extend the life of the tank a little while -- but a new
tank is in your future sooner rather than later.

--

[nestork]

mcdonnep;3108582 Wrote:
> Hie everyone. I have a submersible pump with a fl 7 composite bladder
> tank. The pump turns on at 40 and off at 60. Every time I flush the
> toilet, the pump turns on. Is this normal? I thought that the tank
> should
> hold more that 1 toilets worth of water. I don't know how much the
> toilet
> holds, house was built in 1991. Thanks in advance for the help.
>

Your toilet is probably 5 gallons per flush.

If withdrawing 5 gallons from your bladder tank is sufficient to cause
it's pressure to drop below 40 psig, then the pump will come on every
time the toilet is flushed.

You may want to consider installing a much larger bladder tank. The
bigger your tank, the less frequently your sump pump will come on, but
the longer it will run each time it does come on.




--
nestork

[The Daring Dufas]

Um, I didn't think you used a sump pump for potable water. O_o

TDD

[nestork]

Daring Dufas:
I think she means a well pump. That's a cylindrical pump that goes
right down the water well. But it's still underwater, so it's just
another kind of submersible pump.

Dpb:
If the tank were waterlogged, then the diphragm in the tank is
torn. So, once you emptied the water out of the tank, the air pressure
on the air side of the diaphragm would also leak out. So, why would you
measure 38 psi? It would seem to me that with the tank empty and the
diaphragm torn, the pressure on both sides of the torn diaphragm will be
atmospheric pressure, wouldn't it?




--
nestork

[Doug Miller]

mcdonnep <caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote in
news:4d7c5$520fd282$cf3aab60$22...@news.flashnewsgroups.com:

> Hie everyone. I have a submersible pump with a fl 7 composite bladder
> tank. The pump turns on at 40 and off at 60. Every time I flush the
> toilet, the pump turns on. Is this normal? I thought that the tank should
> hold more that 1 toilets worth of water. I don't know how much the toilet
> holds, house was built in 1991. Thanks in advance for the help.

A little bit of Googling shows that the FL7 is a 22-gallon tank.

If you're interested, ask, and I'll post the details of how I got to this figure... but I calculate that
with your on/off pressures at 40/60, you can withdraw *no more than* 5.9 gallons from the
tank before the pump kicks on.

If you have a 5-gallon toilet, I'd expect the pump to come on nearly every time you flush it,
about 17 times out of every 20. That is perfectly normal.

If the toilet uses less water than 5 gallons per flush, this is *not* normal. For example, if it's a
1.6-gallon toilet, you should expect that, on average, the pump would run about one flush in
every four.

So before anyone can tell you (as some have tried to) that your pressure tank is definitely
waterlogged, you need to tell us:

(a) How much water the toilet uses per flush (should be marked inside the tank)

(b) What happens if you flush the toilet, wait for the toilet to fill *and* for the pump to stop
running, then flush it again? Does the pump kick on before the toilet fills, or not?

(c) How often does the pump run in one hour if nobody is using any water at all? Any answer
other than zero means you have a leak somewhere; the higher the number, the worse the
leak.

[Doug Miller]

nestork <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote in news:nestork...@diybanter.com:

> If the tank were waterlogged, then the diphragm in the tank is
> torn. So, once you emptied the water out of the tank, the air pressure
> on the air side of the diaphragm would also leak out. So, why would you
> measure 38 psi? It would seem to me that with the tank empty and the
> diaphragm torn, the pressure on both sides of the torn diaphragm will be
> atmospheric pressure, wouldn't it?

If the system's open to the atmosphere, yes. That's why you close the shutoff valve before you
pressurize the tank.

[dpb]

There can be a pinhole leak that takes a long time to lose a significant
amount of air so that if re-establish a new working pressure/volume one
can often get by for quite some time.

Or, of course, could have lost air to atmosphere thru a leak Schroeder
valve and the bladder/diaphragm is fine...

--

[The Daring Dufas]

On 8/17/2013 6:37 PM, nestork wrote:

When I was a kid back on the family farm, we got our water from a
natural spring that had been dug out and turned into a 2,000 gal
reservoir with a little pump house built over it. The pump used to
pump water to the house 100 yards away was a long cylindrical well
pump. Perhaps my father used such a pump designed for a deep well
because the water had to come up out of gully where the spring was and
on to the house which was some distance away. There was a pressurized
tank in the basement and as I remember, a toilet flush could start the
pump running but those were the older (wasteful) toilets that actually
flushed the contents down to the septic tank with one flush. It's been
40 years since I've seen it so my experience is a bit out of date but
from what I've seen in other homes over the years, the basic well pump
installations are all the same. ^_^

TDD

[nestork]

http://tinyurl.com/kkpo9rb




--
nestork

[CRNG]

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 15:52:35 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote in
<kuonq9$il0$1...@speranza.aioe.org> Re Re: frequent pump runs:

>On 8/17/2013 2:44 PM, mcdonnep wrote:
>> Hie everyone. I have a submersible pump with a fl 7 composite bladder
>> tank. The pump turns on at 40 and off at 60. Every time I flush the
>> toilet, the pump turns on. Is this normal? I thought that the tank should
>> hold more that 1 toilets worth of water. I don't know how much the toilet
>> holds, house was built in 1991. Thanks in advance for the help.
>> mcdonnep
>
>The tank is waterlogged -- you can try draining it entirely (after
>turning of pump, of oourse) and then checking the pressure. Should be 2
>lb under the cut-in pressure -- 38 in your case.

+1 on the "waterlogged". Here's a bit more detail on hot to correct.

1) Shut power to pump

2) Open a "lowest" sink or hose valve and drain tank completely.
Leave valve open.

3) Add air pressure to you tank until you are at 38 psi.

4) Close the valve opened in (2) above.

5) Turn on pump.

If the problem happens again in less than a year or two, you will need
a new pressure tank, but can get by for as long as you are willing to
repeat the above procedure. However that is not recommended as
frequent cycling of the pump shortens it's life.

>See if that will extend the life of the tank a little while -- but a new
>tank is in your future sooner rather than later.
--

Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[Robert Green]

"Doug Miller" <doug_at_mil...@example.com> wrote in message

<stuff snipped>

> (b) What happens if you flush the toilet, wait for the toilet to fill
*and* for the pump to stop
> running, then flush it again? Does the pump kick on before the toilet
fills, or not?

That's a good test because it eliminates any potential slow leak.

> (c) How often does the pump run in one hour if nobody is using any water
at all? Any answer
> other than zero means you have a leak somewhere; the higher the number,
the worse the
> leak.

Also a good test. Both need to be performed to determine if there really is
a leak.

--
Bobby G.

[Frank]

On 8/18/2013 7:56 AM, CRNG wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 15:52:35 -0500, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote in
> <kuonq9$il0$1...@speranza.aioe.org> Re Re: frequent pump runs:
>
>> On 8/17/2013 2:44 PM, mcdonnep wrote:
>>> Hie everyone. I have a submersible pump with a fl 7 composite bladder
>>> tank. The pump turns on at 40 and off at 60. Every time I flush the
>>> toilet, the pump turns on. Is this normal? I thought that the tank should
>>> hold more that 1 toilets worth of water. I don't know how much the toilet
>>> holds, house was built in 1991. Thanks in advance for the help.
>>> mcdonnep
>>
>> The tank is waterlogged -- you can try draining it entirely (after
>> turning of pump, of oourse) and then checking the pressure. Should be 2
>> lb under the cut-in pressure -- 38 in your case.
>
> +1 on the "waterlogged". Here's a bit more detail on hot to correct.
>
> 1) Shut power to pump
>
> 2) Open a "lowest" sink or hose valve and drain tank completely.
> Leave valve open.
>
> 3) Add air pressure to you tank until you are at 38 psi.
>
> 4) Close the valve opened in (2) above.
>
> 5) Turn on pump.
>
> If the problem happens again in less than a year or two, you will need
> a new pressure tank, but can get by for as long as you are willing to
> repeat the above procedure. However that is not recommended as
> frequent cycling of the pump shortens it's life.
>

I've never checked pressure in mine and note that last tank was
installed 8 years ago. I had written on the tank that the installer
said bladder pressure should be set at 25 - 28 pounds.

This is third pressure tank on my well over its ~35 year lifetime.

[dpb]

On 8/18/2013 8:19 AM, Frank wrote:
...

> I've never checked pressure in mine and note that last tank was
> installed 8 years ago. I had written on the tank that the installer said
> bladder pressure should be set at 25 - 28 pounds.

Should be 2-lb under the cut-in pressure -- which implies you're running
a 30-50 cycle; pretty common as well...

> This is third pressure tank on my well over its ~35 year lifetime.

Which averages out to about a dozen yr/tank which is about what one can
expect on average -- it's quite possible OP can stretch the life of his
for several more years depending on the state it's currently in and
precisely where his leak is and how long it's been neglected in the
current state.

--

[Harry K]

??? I have never heard of a tank going bad that fast and I have been mainintain my well and neighbors for a long, long time. My well was put in in the 80s and the tank is still alive and well. A tank failing in 6-7 years would have to be due to something in the water eating the tank or bladder.

Harry K

[dpb]

On 8/18/2013 8:54 AM, Harry K wrote:
...

> ??? I have never heard of a tank going bad that fast and I have been
> mainintain my well and neighbors for a long, long time. My well was
> put in in the 80s and the tank is still alive and well. A tank
> failing in 6-7 years would have to be due to something in the water
> eating the tank or bladder.

...

I don't think the quality of tanks/diaphragms is what it used to be is a
large (the largest?) part of it -- the first on the new well here lasted
nearly 30 yr; the replacement of it was also long-lived but not as long
as that I'd guess; that was during the hiatus while was gone for 30-yr
in VA/TN. In the fifteen yr since we've been back we're now on the
third--counting the one that was failing when moved back...same batwell,
same batwater.

I think next time I'm just going back to the old straight tank and air
bubble over it -- sure, have to recharge occasionally but there's no
bladder/diaphragm to fail.

How much, if any, has to do w/ all the new EPA requirements on
manufacturing so that the rubber compounds aren't what they used to be
or how much is just seeing how cheaply they can be made I don't know,
but I'd surely not bet on any new tanks lasting nearly what the old ones
used to...

--

[Doug Miller]

"Robert Green" <robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote in news:kuqe35$u4m$1@dont-
email.me:

> "Doug Miller" <doug_at_mil...@example.com> wrote in message
>
> <stuff snipped>
>
>> (b) What happens if you flush the toilet, wait for the toilet to fill
> *and* for the pump to stop
>> running, then flush it again? Does the pump kick on before the toilet
> fills, or not?
>
> That's a good test because it eliminates any potential slow leak.

The main reason it's a good test is that you *know* that the tank is as full of water as it's
going to get when you perform it, and you *know* how much water will be withdrawn from the
tank -- which means that you *know* that the pump _should not run_ (assuming a 5-gallon or
less flush) -- which in turn means that if the pump does run, then you know the tank is
waterlogged.

[CRNG]

On Sun, 18 Aug 2013 09:19:16 -0400, Frank
<frankdo...@comcast.net> wrote in <kuqhkm$ff6$1...@dont-email.me> Re

Well, if the pump power-on pressure is 40 psi, most people would set
the empty tank bladder pressure to about 37 psi. I'm not sure what
happens if you do that.

>This is third pressure tank on my well over its ~35 year lifetime.

That seems like a lot. How do you know the tank really needed
replacing and not just a recharge?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:06:42 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
> On 8/18/2013 8:54 AM, Harry K wrote:
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > ??? I have never heard of a tank going bad that fast and I have been
>
> > mainintain my well and neighbors for a long, long time. My well was
>
> > put in in the 80s and the tank is still alive and well. A tank
>
> > failing in 6-7 years would have to be due to something in the water
>
> > eating the tank or bladder.
>
> ...
>
>
>
> I don't think the quality of tanks/diaphragms is what it used to be is a
>
> large (the largest?) part of it -- the first on the new well here lasted
>
> nearly 30 yr; the replacement of it was also long-lived but not as long
>
> as that I'd guess; that was during the hiatus while was gone for 30-yr
>
> in VA/TN. In the fifteen yr since we've been back we're now on the
>
> third--counting the one that was failing when moved back...same batwell,
>
> same batwater.
>
>
>
> I think next time I'm just going back to the old straight tank and air
>
> bubble over it -- sure, have to recharge occasionally but there's no
>
> bladder/diaphragm to fail.
>
>

You shouldn't have to recharge it. Before the bladder type tanks,
the traditional ones for decades had simple self regulation
systems that added air in automatically if needed. It's just
that like everything else that after a long enough time they
would fail too and then the tank would water log.

[dpb]

On 8/19/2013 8:30 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
...

>> I think next time I'm just going back to the old straight tank and air
>> bubble over it -- sure, have to recharge occasionally but there's no
>> bladder/diaphragm to fail.
>>

...

> You shouldn't have to recharge it. Before the bladder type tanks,
> the traditional ones for decades had simple self regulation
> systems that added air in automatically if needed. It's just
> that like everything else that after a long enough time they
> would fail too and then the tank would water log.

Never saw such; how'd that work? All we had until this new well ("new"
as in drilled in the early-mid '60s) was just a "plain 'ol tank".

--

[mcdonnep]

replying to nestork , mcdonnep wrote:
> nestork.c560039 wrote:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kkpo9rb


Thanks for all of the advice. I am going to shut off the water, drain the
tank, and reset the precharge on the tank to 38 psi. I will report back.
thanks to all.

[dpb]

On 8/19/2013 11:44 AM, mcdonnep wrote:
> replying to nestork , mcdonnep wrote:
>> nestork.c560039 wrote:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/kkpo9rb
>
>
> Thanks for all of the advice. I am going to shut off the water, drain the
> tank, and reset the precharge on the tank to 38 psi. I will report back.
> thanks to all.

While you've got the tank drained and open, pressurize a little over
final setpoint and let sit for a little while and see if forces any
additional water out.

Also, while empty, check for whether there is still water in the
tank--do you know for certain whether it is a bladder or diaphragm style
tank?

--

[tra...@optonline.net]

It's basically a widget that goes onto a fitting opening on
the side of the tank, about half up, ie at where the air level
should be. It has a float or similar inside it that reacts to
the water level. If the water level gets above the level
of the tank fitting, it triggers a valve in the widget to
open which is connected to the suction side of the pump.
That allows a small amount of air to get sucked in. Each
time the pump runs, that process works, until the air level
is back to the level of the widget.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/19320919?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227017094556&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=26495372316&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=51984823956&veh=sem

if the link doesn't work, just google "water tank air control"

[Frank]

The other tanks were leaking externally. Well water around here can be
tough on systems. We usually get about 7 years out of an electric hot
water heater and sometimes get pinhole leaks in pipes although I have
not seen one in several years. Well is working fine and not rapidly
recycling. If it did, I would check pressure as I imagine bladder like
a car tire would slowly lose air pressure.

[dpb]

On 8/19/2013 12:48 PM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
...

> It's basically a widget that goes onto a fitting opening on
> the side of the tank, about half up, ie at where the air level
> should be. It has a float or similar inside it that reacts to
> the water level. If the water level gets above the level
> of the tank fitting, it triggers a valve in the widget to
> open which is connected to the suction side of the pump.
> That allows a small amount of air to get sucked in. Each
> time the pump runs, that process works, until the air level
> is back to the level of the widget.
>

...

Hmmmmn....concept ok, execution here would be _really, really_ tough as
it's 2-300 ft from well house where the pressure tank is and the well...

> ... Each time the pump shuts off the water is drained between the
> bleeder orifice,which is about 5' down in the well on the drop pipe,
> to the additional check valve at the tank.

--

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Monday, August 19, 2013 4:25:55 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
> On 8/19/2013 12:48 PM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > It's basically a widget that goes onto a fitting opening on
>
> > the side of the tank, about half up, ie at where the air level
>
> > should be. It has a float or similar inside it that reacts to
>
> > the water level. If the water level gets above the level
>
> > of the tank fitting, it triggers a valve in the widget to
>
> > open which is connected to the suction side of the pump.
>
> > That allows a small amount of air to get sucked in. Each
>
> > time the pump runs, that process works, until the air level
>
> > is back to the level of the widget.
>
> >
>
> ...
>
>
>
> Hmmmmn....concept ok, execution here would be _really, really_ tough as
>
> it's 2-300 ft from well house where the pressure tank is and the well...
>
>

Yes, I guess I should have mentioned they only work on
jet pumps where you have the suction side of the pump
near the tank. Which is probably why you don't see them much
these days. Years ago, many wells were shallow. With a
submersible they can't be used.

[dpb]

On 8/19/2013 5:14 PM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
...

> Yes, I guess I should have mentioned they only work on
> jet pumps where you have the suction side of the pump
> near the tank. Which is probably why you don't see them much
> these days. Years ago, many wells were shallow. With a
> submersible they can't be used.
>
>
...

That's more a function of local water tables than "these or those" days.
The water table here is 200-ft or so...

--

[tra...@optonline.net]

Yes, depth is a factor, but here in NJ you used to be able to have a well
at any depth. The old systems I saw from decades ago that
had conventional tanks and jet pumps were wells that were 50 ft
or less. Today you can't have a well less than 50 ft. A jet pump
can still be used down to 100ft or so, but submersibles are more
efficient. I haven't seen a residential potable water well put
in around here in a long time, so don't know what they are using
for those. But I've seen several irrigation wells at 50 ft or less
and they all use submersibles.

[Harry K]

The submersibles as well as bladder tanks took a _lot_ of routine maintenance out of the system. Not much needs doing on a modern well anymore until something goes wrong.

Harry K

[bud--]

I took one apart recently that was similar to your description. In that
one the widget had a diaphragm. One side of the diaphragm connected to
the jet venturi, which was attached to the associated pump (shallow
well). The other side the diaphragm was an air pump with check valves
for air to the tank and for air into the pump. Not obvious why there is
a pressure difference between the pump and tank when it cycles which is
required to operate the air pump.

[dpb]

On 8/20/2013 12:10 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Monday, August 19, 2013 7:48:12 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
>> On 8/19/2013 5:14 PM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>>
>> ...

...

>>> ... Years ago, many wells were shallow. ...

...
>>
>> That's more a function of local water tables than "these or those" days.
>>
>> The water table here is 200-ft or so...
>>

...

>
> Yes, depth is a factor, but here in NJ you used to be able to have a well
> at any depth. The old systems I saw from decades ago that
> had conventional tanks and jet pumps were wells that were 50 ft
> or less. Today you can't have a well less than 50 ft. A jet pump

...

That's pretty unusual geology; there's never been any water table here
except the Ogallala that's roughly 200 ft or deeper.

Farther east where there's surface-fed aquifers they may have some
shallower wells.

--

[tra...@optonline.net]

Here in central NJ, there is one at around 50 ft. Next one is
around 100, then 180 or so. It's really funny too. Here's
what happens. Folks from the city move here and want a green
lawn. So, they call up a well driller. Virtually every one of
them winds up with a well at 100ft. The only thing is, it's
full of iron. So, within year, the sidewalks, patios, pool
decks, side of the house, front steps, etc are all orange
from rust. It's one of the craziest things going on. There is
more water at 100 ft, than at 50. But usually there is plenty
of water, eg 15 gpm, at 50 ft and no iron. Yet, for some
reason, these guys just go for the 100ft.

A friend of mine had one put in a couple years ago. His at
50 ft is one of the few in the neighborhood that doesn't have
the rust problem, because I told him what to do. Makes no sense, because these folks would
pay the same amount or more for a well without the rust problem.
I'm guessing the issue might be that the well drillers prefer to
put in a well that they know will have plenty of water, even
if it's bad, rather than run the risk that after they put a
50ft one in, the people bitch because it won't deliver enough
water.

[Harry K]

Here in Eastern Washington (the Palouse) we have a very good shallow aquifer but odd geology - basically hundreds of feet of Loess soil blown in after the ice ages. I live in the bottom of a shallow valley containing my house, a highway, a year round ditch (usually, does dry up some years, headwater about a mile up valley). On my side of the highway I drilled a well: 24 gpm at 60ft, community well and house 1/4 mile downstream from me that used to support 4 families, shallow well with a shallow well pump (not a jet), plenty of water.
1/2 mile up from me neighbor drilled a new well that ran over the top of the casing when they hit the aquifer. He said it ran for four days before he capped it.

Then on the opposite of the highway directly across from me is one house. It was on a windmill pump and cistern. Replaced with electric pump/tank - not enough flow. Drilled new well and got a 4gpm total accumulation after going through 3 seams (I was spectating while they were drilling) I don't recall the depth but they used every piece of drill pipe on the rig. Up from him a mile was on a sping with low flow, drilled well, same story: barely enough for flow to support the house barn.

My well (24gpm/60 ft) and neighbor across the stream (4gpm over 90ft) are separated by no more than 200 ft.

Harry K