Why solder will not melt?
ississauga
holding together half inch copper plumbing pipes, but the solder won't
melt no matter how long I heat it for. I leaked out the water and
heated once till copper pipe turned red. Is there another way to melt
the solder ?
David Meiland
Doesn't sound right to me. If the pipe was red hot, the solder was
definitely liquid, or possibly you still had water in there. Now,
getting a joint apart can be difficult. You need a thick pair of
gloves, a wet rag, and maybe a pair of pliers. Twisting and pulling
should do it, and keep the torch on there. Even with a hardware store
propane torch it should only take maybe 20 seconds to melt a 1/2"
solder joint. Get yourself an acetylene torch and you can do it in 5
seconds.
---
David Meiland
Oakland, California
http://davidmeiland.com/
**Check the reply address before sending mail
Jeff Wisnia
ississauga wrote:
Chances are the solder *is* melting, but the pipe/fitting is siezed
together because of a *very* close fit when they were made up. This can be
very annoying, as I'm sure you've found out by yourself.
On occasion I've had to cut the pipe a couple of inches from the fitting
so that I could crush an twist the stub with a pair of vise-grips to work
it out of the fitting with the joint hot. I've alway been able to get them
apart this way; Sometimes there's a screetching noise while the two pieces
are turning against each other.
You can always use a solder "slip coupling" to put a few inches of pipe
back when you're making up the joint again.
Hope this helps,
Jeff
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"I before E except after C"....(The height of insufficient weird ancient
science...)
John
amount) in the pipe. If this is not the case, then the solder is melted and you
just need a tap with a hammer or twist (while hot) to open the joint. You may
not have properly deburred the pipe when you made the joint and the burr is
jammed in?
If all else fails, cut the pipe again and add a short piece with a coupling...
John
"ississauga" <issis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:14e8ca45.03062...@posting.google.com...
jim
the heat directed to the male section of pipe(the part that goes into
the female fitting??), when it got hot it expaned and you cold not budge
it.. the solder was not holding it on, it was the expansion that was
holding it on.... try cutting it off and then putting new fittings in
there.. not too many people reuse old fittings, they are pretty cheap...
David Hare-Scott
>I am using a propane torch to melt a recently made solder joint
>holding together half inch copper plumbing pipes, but the solder won't
>melt no matter how long I heat it for. I leaked out the water and
>heated once till copper pipe turned red. Is there another way to melt
>the solder ?
"David Meiland" <remove...@meiland.com> wrote in message
news:3ef6315...@news.mindspring.com...
> issis...@hotmail.com (ississauga) wrote:
>
>
> Doesn't sound right to me. If the pipe was red hot, the solder was
> definitely liquid, or possibly you still had water in there. Now,
> getting a joint apart can be difficult. You need a thick pair of
> gloves, a wet rag, and maybe a pair of pliers.
...snip...
If using a rag use a dry one. If you grab a really hot pipe with a wet
rag the water turns to steam and there is a great chance the steam will
blast through and around the cloth and burn your hand. Use a dry rag
and it maintains its insulating properties, it may scorch of course, so
don't use your best shirt. Also a wet rag tends to cool the work which
you don't want. If you still had water in a red-hot pipe you would hear
of hissing and popping and steam would come out the end.
The deal here is to fasten one end of the assemply in a vise or clamp if
it isn't already fixed and as you heat up the joint twist the free end
with a gripping tool (wrench, spanner, multi-grips, pliers whatever you
have). You will feel it start to give when the solder softens, which is
long before red heat, then pull the joint apart. If the joint is very
tight you may have to keep twisting back and forth as you work the free
end off.
David
Mark S. Stiegel
me for a while....I heated that dang joint until it was red as could
be....but it wouldn't budge. Then I realized that the joint was NOT
soldered with conventional solder, it was silver soldered....which meant
that I would have needed to get out the acetylene torch to loosen the joint.
I ended up cutting the joint and then going from there.
Apparently, some builders silver solder because it's quicker...but makes it
a pain in the behind for homeowners.
Good luck
--
Mark
"ississauga" <issis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:14e8ca45.03062...@posting.google.com...
EJ
news:bd5enb$kfn$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
A MAPP gas burner (also a HD item) should melt the silver solder. Also, it
will melt a regular solder faster and may melt it even of there is a tiny
water leak from the shutoff valve.
BTW, a MAPP-oxygen torch (from, where else, HD) will burn the copper pipe
off :).
EJ
Jules Beaudoin
melted solder will fly everywhere and could be across your eye balls. It
has happened before and nearly happened to me.
Clifford Keele
or other "lead free" solder in any water supply lines. Definately DO NOT
USE OLD LEAD BASED SOLDER!!!
It just makes sense to limit the lead in our drinking water.
Actually, I like using my oxy-acetylene torch for soldering. You just
don't have to mess with not getting the joint hot enough. Of course,
there is always the problem with getting it too hot.
----- CK -----
In article <bd5enb$kfn$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, msti...@ix.netcom.com
says...
Mark & Shauna
In addition to the numerous other posts, after having gone to trade for
the dreadful (imho) life profession of plumbing (no offense to plumbers)
and working a few years after in the field some tips can really help in
getting a tough/wet joint apart.
#1 If you over heat you will make your life much more difficult.
Overheating (when you see colors) will cease the joint burning out the
solder and make it very difficult many times resulting in the cut/crush
method, or my choice, just cut it out, get a couple couplings, and do it
correctly. If the joint doesnt melt within a minute, max, you have
another issue. You should never see colors while, or after, you
solder/take apart a joint. Just a darkening of the copper is all that
should result. I have heard of some plumbers heating to the "rainbow"
effect but in my opinion it is poor practice and can weaken the joint.
Additionally you many times will heat so much the solder will flow right
out of the top of the joint and also stay molten for long after you are
done making leaks more of a possibility.
#2 Water in the line means you will never get it apart. There are
however a couple tricks. You must have the line as drained as much as
possible but sometimes there will be small amounts of water trickling
through the pipe. This water, and resulting steam, will constantly cool
the joint never allowing the solder to flow. Additionally, even a dry
joint, when heated, will "call" any close by water left in the line to
it. A trick to getting a wet joint apart is to start heating at the
fitting then continue slowly heating the pipe "up-stream" for about a
foot. This will create a hot pipe ahead of the trickle of water (between
the trickle and the joint to be disassembled). You will want to heat the
point 1 foot away from the joint alot. What this will do is "tie up" the
trickle in a boiling mass one foot away from the joint. Now you can
quickly return to the joint, heat it, and get it apart before the
upstream hot spot cools. This works really well and I have done it with
2 torches (and a helper) on a line with water coming from both
directions. Only warning is that if the line is closed on both ends the
steam will create a LOT of pressure inside. When you do heat the joint
it may just blow apart. Be prepared for it to possibly "pop" and steam
and hot solder could (more likely will) fly out. You should have any
valves or faucets on the line you are working on OPEN to facilitate
drainage and reduce steam pressure.
#3 Lastly, many stubborn joints can be easily coaxed apart if, while
you heat the joint, you apply some flux. It will make the solder in the
joint (even very old ones) flow more easily and will help you to fight
less with twisting/yanking/screeching etc. trying to get it apart. Keep
your flux handy and give it a swab as you see the solder flow or even
before. Be liberal with the flux while you are getting the joint apart,
it will make it much easier.
I always use channel locks when getting joints apart. Rags/etc have
always resulted in burns for me. Heat the joint, a few taps with the
channel locks can also be helpfull and give it a twist.
As one post said, Lead free solder is now required. This does NOT mean
silver solder. A house would cost a FORTUNE to plumb with silver solder.
There was almost a rebelion in making the switch to 95/5 from 50/50
because it was a couple bucks higher per pound much less paying for
silver solder. 95/5 (tin and antimony) does however melt a little hotter
than 50/50 and can make a wet joint even harder. 50/50 however is still
fine on any non-potable water lines (heating systems/etc).
Good luck..
Mark
Terry
>
> As one post said, Lead free solder is now required. This does NOT mean
> silver solder. A house would cost a FORTUNE to plumb with silver solder.
> There was almost a rebelion in making the switch to 95/5 from 50/50
> because it was a couple bucks higher per pound much less paying for
> silver solder. 95/5 (tin and antimony) does however melt a little hotter
> than 50/50 and can make a wet joint even harder. 50/50 however is still
> fine on any non-potable water lines (heating systems/etc).
So any copper line which may be used for potable water requires
the newer solder?
I guess 'potable' would include kitchen cold and hot taps,
therefore all joints in the hot water system, bathroom cold taps,
for tooth brushing etc. Icemaker connections, dishwashers etc.?
In other words anything with water you put in your mouth?
Thanks for any comments. Terry.
Michael H. Pittsley
It sounds to me that the joint was brazed, not soldered. By definition,
brazing is done at higher temperatures than a common propane torch can
achieve.
Bob Morrison
Pittsley says...
> > I am using a propane torch to melt a recently made solder joint
> > holding together half inch copper plumbing pipes, but the solder won't
> > melt no matter how long I heat it for. I leaked out the water and
> > heated once till copper pipe turned red. Is there another way to melt
> > the solder ?
>
I assume you cleaned the joints real well and used flux to clean the
joints of oxidation. This is not rocket science. If you are using the
proper cleaning techniques and the proper solder, this should be easy
with a standard propane torch -- I've done it dozens of times.
--
Bob Morrison
R.L. Morrison Engineering Co.
Structural and Civil Engineering
Poulsbo WA
nos...@nospam.com
Either there is still some water in the pipe - or more likely it's
Silver Solder or Lead Free Solder, both of which are nearly impossible
to melt with Propane. Buy or rent an acetylene torch, which are far
hotter, and the pipe will come apart very quickly.
TCS
begin
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:18:47 GMT, Bob Morrison <bob@-REMOVETHIS-.rlmorrisonengr.com> wrote:
> In article <1AHJa.15214$xg5....@twister.austin.rr.com> Michael H.
> Pittsley says...
>> > I am using a propane torch to melt a recently made solder joint
>> > holding together half inch copper plumbing pipes, but the solder won't
>> > melt no matter how long I heat it for. I leaked out the water and
>> > heated once till copper pipe turned red. Is there another way to melt
>> > the solder ?
>
> I assume you cleaned the joints real well and used flux to clean the
> joints of oxidation. This is not rocket science. If you are using the
> proper cleaning techniques and the proper solder, this should be easy
> with a standard propane torch -- I've done it dozens of times.
All you need to melt solder is temperature.
Mark & Shauna
means everything, toilets, washing machines, etc.. Like I said, you can
still use 50/50 on forced hot water systems and such that are protected
from the potable water system by a backflow preventer.
To this day I still personally use 50/50 on heating systems as I feel
it is a little less brittle (very very fussy issue here) and feel that
it will handle the higher heats of a hydronic heating system (200
degrees on some older systemes) better. That said, I know plumbers who
prefer to buy one solder and use 95/5 exclusively and have been doing so
for many years now with no issues whatsoever.
The less brittle issue comes from working in industrial applications
where we used to solder 4 and 6 inch copper lines with 50/50 and then
cap them (the last bit of the joint was filled) with 95/5 for some
rigidity to hold the 50/50 in as there was so much surface area on the
joint... its just an old hold over and I am not at all worried that I
will accidentally solder a potable joint with 50/50 having both in the
tool box.
Mark
DaveG
>
> Either there is still some water in the pipe - or more likely it's
> Silver Solder or Lead Free Solder, both of which are nearly impossible
> to melt with Propane. Buy or rent an acetylene torch, which are far
> hotter, and the pipe will come apart very quickly.
>
and lead free solder, the soft stuff anyway. Another alternative to propane
may be MAPP gas? The plumbers who worked in our house used that, must be
some reason, probably heats faster, thus saving time?.
Looks like it's a bit more expensive than propane, but less costly thatn
acetylene.
Dave
Matthew S. Whiting
> Yes, lead free (95/5) on ALL joints in the potable water system.
> This means everything, toilets, washing machines, etc.. Like I said, you
> can still use 50/50 on forced hot water systems and such that are
> protected from the potable water system by a backflow preventer.
We don't drink out of the toilets in my house. :-)
Matt
Jim Yanik
news:3EF78FE5...@epix.net:
> We don't drink out of the toilets in my house. :-)
>
> Matt
>
>
Are your toilets on a separate water line than your faucets? I doubt it.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me
Mark & Shauna
Yep, I am with ya on that one. But the bureaucrats say what they say. I
suppose if you wanted to put a Watts9D on your toilet, DW, WM, etc. you
could fight them to allow you to solder another few joints with 50/50. ;)
Come to think of it, I wonder how long it will be before they will make
us implement some sort of extra safety measures on these appliances even
though they already have one. After all, you have to install vac.
breakers on your silcocks in the event that you fill your child's kiddie
pool, he/she pee's in the pool, you leave the hose in the pool, there is
a 50 alarm fire on your street at the _exact time_ you happen to be
adding water to the pee tainted pool, the fire department drains all the
water out of the mains (and more) siphoning contents of said pool back
into your house, and you subsequently make a pot of pee flavored iced
tea next time you run the tap.
The same thing could happen with a DW/WM.
Oh well,...
Mark
Dave
Pipe may be deformed. I had a real struggle with a small plumbing job
recently. My main trouble was water hiding in the pipes. Probably
worth having a MAPP gas torch for that. Also had a number of tiny
leaks even though I had cleaned and fluxed each joint. Is there
anything extra that can be done for better joints?
Gary Slusser
"Dave" <gal...@hotmail.com> wrote
> issis...@hotmail.com (ississauga) wrote
> >
> > I am using a propane torch to melt a recently made solder joint
> > holding together half inch copper plumbing pipes, but the solder
won't
> > melt no matter how long I heat it for. I leaked out the water and
> > heated once till copper pipe turned red. Is there another way to
melt
> > the solder ?
>
> Pipe may be deformed. I had a real struggle with a small plumbing job
> recently. My main trouble was water hiding in the pipes. Probably
> worth having a MAPP gas torch for that. Also had a number of tiny
> leaks even though I had cleaned and fluxed each joint. Is there
> anything extra that can be done for better joints?
Water converts to steam when enough heat is applied to boil water. Steam
expands to a tremendous volume and seeks all exits from the plumbing,
including molten solder in a joint. Air expands as it is heated too. It
also builds pressure and wants to escape the plumbing. In a closed area
of the plumbing system, both are guaranteed to cause soldered joints to
leak. The more heat the more expansion. I suppose we could say the
bigger the leak but that doesn't always prove to be true.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Dave
if water was my initial problem. Maybe next time I will try cleaning
the joint area with alcohol first.
mark Ransley
mark Rainsley
fuck? Will you ever use any usenet accepted protocol, or will you
always be just a webtv shit stain?
