Crimp-and-tape vs. wirenuts -- for hots?
Percival P. Cassidy
remaking some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by
larger (e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher? Surely wirenuts
provide better insulation than the tape. There could be 220/240 volts
between conductors in some boxes because there are Edison circuits involved.
Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up
less room.
And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
the other is too.
Perce
JoeSpareBedroom
news:2s7oi.14$9a...@newsfe05.lga...
Addressing the connection method: When I think of crimps, I think of the
type that already have a plastic sleeve over a metal interior. However, I
*have* seen a type that's just a metal sleeve. As far as I know, they are
intended only for joining bare ground wires.
Someone will stumble along here and claim otherwise, but I think electrical
tape is for slobs and hacks who don't know how to make a secure connection,
so they cover things up with tape to hide their incompetence. It also leaves
things gummy. When I want to rewire something, my definition doesn't include
wiping gunk off my fingers constantly because some monkey went nuts with
tape.
I once asked a local inspector and was told it was perfectly legal to use
crimps for house wiring, and was told that it WAS. There are two caveats:
1) You must use a crimp tool that actually shapes the crimp properly. You
won't find such a tool at Home Depot or Lowe's. It'll take some effort. It
requires a channel for the crimp to sit in, and a tooth-like prong on the
opposite jaw. The tooth almost creates a hole in one side of the crimp.
2) If wires might need to be disassembled later, and they're already short,
cutting off an old crimp will obviously make them even shorter. Use wire
nuts in these situations. Have several sizes on hand.
Doug Miller
>I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
>remaking some original connections
>
>Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up
>less room.
Wire nuts are perfectly fine; crimps aren't unless they're made properly, and
- no offense intended - asking the question shows that you don't know how to
make them properly.
>
>And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
>breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
>assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
>the other is too.
It's "OK" in the sense that it is permitted by the NEC, although in my opinion
it should not be -- for exactly the reason you cite. It would be a good idea
to write a warning with a Sharpie on the inside of the cover plate.
>Perce
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Percival P. Cassidy
>> I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and
>> remaking some original connections
> [...]
>> Should I use wirenuts for the reconnections? Crimps and tape take up
>> less room.
>
> Wire nuts are perfectly fine; crimps aren't unless they're made properly, and
> - no offense intended - asking the question shows that you don't know how to
> make them properly.
I have a Gardner-Bender stripping/crimping/etc. tool that AFAIK is meant
for this job, and I believe I know how to use it. Asking whether it's OK
to do something has nothing to do, IMO, with knowing how to do it. There
are many possibilities:
1. I know it's OK and know how to do it.
2. I know it's OK but don't know how to do it.
3. I don't know whether it's OK and wouldn't know how even if it is OK.
4. I don't know whether it's OK but know how to do it.
I believe I fall into the last category.
Actually I suppose there are yet other possibilities:
5. I know it's not OK but know how to do it and will do it anyway.
6. I haven't a clue but will do it wrong even if it would be OK if I did
it right....
>> And, while I think of it, is it OK to have circuits fed from different
>> breakers in the same box (e.g., outlet and light switch)? One could
>> assume that since the one circuit is dead (switched off at the panel),
>> the other is too.
>
> It's "OK" in the sense that it is permitted by the NEC, although in my opinion
> it should not be -- for exactly the reason you cite. It would be a good idea
> to write a warning with a Sharpie on the inside of the cover plate.
Good idea.
Perce
** Frank **
"Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
news:2s7oi.14$9a...@newsfe05.lga...
>I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
>some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
>(e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
>conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
>then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?
Sure its kosher when its done right. BTW, high voltage, high current
cables - that is, thousands of volts and thousands of amps - use crimp
(compression) connectors.
Percival P. Cassidy
>> I am redoing some wiring in our house that involves breaking and remaking
>> some original connections -- ripping out and replacing boxes by larger
>> (e.g., two-gang by three-gang). I find that in some cases all the
>> conductors of the same color have been connected using crimps that have
>> then been taped over -- even the hots. Is this kosher?
> Sure its kosher when its done right. BTW, high voltage, high current
> cables - that is, thousands of volts and thousands of amps - use crimp
> (compression) connectors.
It wasn't so much the crimping I was questioning as the two or three
layers of insulation tape vs. however many mm of insulation provided by
a wirenut.
Perce
Terry
wrote:
Of course more insulation is better, but r
Terry
wrote:
More insulation is better, but remember that the splice is usually
tucked safely in the box
bud--
Tape is OK. I would use more that 3 layers. Be careful of points and
edges that can poke through the tape. It has to be listed electrical tape.
The crimps also have to be listed for purpose - including wire size and
number of wires, stranded/solid, and voltage for insulated crimps.
--
bud--
JoeSpareBedroom
One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there is
absolutely no need for it.
This company makes the best crimps you can buy:
http://www.panduit.com/search/search_results.asp?N=5000001+151&Ne=1®ion=USA&Nu=P_RollupKey
On that page, you'll see a link to a pdf file which discusses proper
crimping tools and techniques.
Although you can order directly from the company, there may also be an
industrial supply dealer near you that sells their products.
willshak
I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
crimp off with a pair of pliers?
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
Beachcomber
>
>I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
>What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
>bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
>switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
>crimp off with a pair of pliers?
With many people, (especially with those who live in countries where
they are banned), there seems to be some sort of bias against the use
of wire nuts, even though they are a perfectly acceptable and an NEC
legally approved method of making splices. When done properly, by
twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.
Wire nuts offer the advantages of simplicity, economy, speed, and the
flexibility to make future changes without destroying the connecter.
Open up enough outlet boxes where the splices have been taped after 5,
10, or 20 years and you will, more likely than not, find examples
where the tape has dried up or even fallen off the splices it was
intended to cover.
Beachcomber
JoeSpareBedroom
news:13a42pd...@news.supernews.com...
Two things:
If you can remove a crimp using pliers, it means the crimp wasn't installed
correctly in the first place. If you need to change a connection, you cut on
either side of the crimp. If you're running new wiring, you leave extra in
case you need to cut out a crimp. If it seems that existing wiring is
already too short to allow cutting later, use wire nuts.
Percival P. Cassidy
> One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there is
> absolutely no need for it.
These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped
onto the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if
they are used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards.
What would you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?
Perce
Percival P. Cassidy
>> I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
>> What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
>> bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
>> switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
>> crimp off with a pair of pliers?
> With many people, (especially with those who live in countries where
> they are banned), there seems to be some sort of bias against the use
> of wire nuts, even though they are a perfectly acceptable and an NEC
> legally approved method of making splices.
I must admit to having been horrified the first time I saw a wirenutted
connection. Looked like some real Rube Goldberg affair. What I was used
to seeing for electrical connections was a box made of insulating
material, with firmly attached brass "busbars" with wires inserted into
the holes and held secure by clamping screws.
> When done properly, by
> twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
> with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
> off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.
I have read that the wires must *not* be twisted together first. In fact
I just read a claim that UL approval of wirenuts depends on them making
a secure connection without pretwisting the conductors.
> Wire nuts offer the advantages of simplicity, economy, speed, and the
> flexibility to make future changes without destroying the connecter.
>
> Open up enough outlet boxes where the splices have been taped after 5,
> 10, or 20 years and you will, more likely than not, find examples
> where the tape has dried up or even fallen off the splices it was
> intended to cover.
The ones I just encountered were likely original (30 years) and the tape
was tight.
Perce
JoeSpareBedroom
Since the wrong kind of crimps were used, I would cut them out and change
them to insulated crimps. If you have the wrong connectors, you don't use
them and try and make them right. You stop the work until you have the right
thing. A cob job might be appropriate when making toast, but not when wiring
a house (or car, boat, or anything else).
mm
<nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote:
>
>
>I must admit to having been horrified the first time I saw a wirenutted
>connection. Looked like some real Rube Goldberg affair. What I was used
>to seeing for electrical connections was a box made of insulating
>material, with firmly attached brass "busbars" with wires inserted into
>the holes and held secure by clamping screws.
>
>> When done properly, by
>> twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
>> with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
>> off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.
>
>I have read that the wires must *not* be twisted together first. In fact
>I just read a claim that UL approval of wirenuts depends on them making
>a secure connection without pretwisting the conductors.
Is your first sentence in your paragraph above a conclusion you
reached from your second sentence, or was it a separate statement you
read?
The seoncd sentence means that the wirenuts must be able to make a
secure connection if the wires are not pretwisted. It does not in
itself doesn't mean that the wires can't also be pretwisted. Or even
that it wouldn't work better if they were pretwitsted.
I only do this stuff once in a while, and sometimes I don't pretwist,
I guess usually when I don't have pliers handy, but I feel more
confidant of the electrical connection when it is pretwisted. Based
on my knowledge of things and materials and touching, I don't know how
it could be otherwise.
CJT
> "Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
> news:lTzoi.90$1c1...@newsfe04.lga...
>
>>On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>
>>
>>>One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there
>>>is absolutely no need for it.
>>
>>These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped onto
>>the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if they are
>>used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards. What would
>>you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?
>>
>>Perce
>
>
>
> Since the wrong kind of crimps were used,
On what is that conclusion based?
I would cut them out and change
> them to insulated crimps. If you have the wrong connectors, you don't use
> them and try and make them right. You stop the work until you have the right
> thing. A cob job might be appropriate when making toast, but not when wiring
> a house (or car, boat, or anything else).
>
>
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
JoeSpareBedroom
news:46A2F4ED...@prodigy.net...
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>> "Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote in message
>> news:lTzoi.90$1c1...@newsfe04.lga...
>>
>>>On 07/21/07 08:39 am JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>One more time: The tape is sloppy, and if the crimp is done right, there
>>>>is absolutely no need for it.
>>>
>>>These are the plain copper cylinders (more or less) that are crimped onto
>>>the wires. As supplied, they have no insulation, so obviously if they are
>>>used on hots or neutrals they need to be insulated afterwards. What would
>>>you use other than tape -- or shrinkwrap, I guess?
>>>
>>>Perce
>>
>>
>>
>> Since the wrong kind of crimps were used,
>
> On what is that conclusion based?
Bare copper cylinders need to be insulated after they're installed, right?
One method would involve tape, which is sloppy and amateurish, and I don't
care whose grandpappy did it and got away with it. The other method
involves heat shrink tubing, which is miraculous stuff, but to use it
**correctly**, you should apply heat to all sides of the tubing. Not so easy
with short wires in a box.
CJT
Your preference against it doesn't make it "wrong."
JoeSpareBedroom
It most certainly does. With wiring, only perfection is acceptable. Tape
doesn't even come close.
CJT
And you think wirenuts are "perfection?" Good luck with that.
dpb
>> Your preference against it doesn't make it "wrong."
>
>
> It most certainly does. With wiring, only perfection is acceptable. Tape
> doesn't even come close.
"Perfection" is defined for practical purposes by the NEC. If it
accepts a practice, that's perfect enough...
--
Doug Miller
>It most certainly does. With wiring, only perfection is acceptable. Tape
>doesn't even come close.
That's going to be news to the NFPA, publishers of the NEC.
George
You would use the system as designed by the manufacturer. There is a
matching cap designed to be used with those connectors. You can get them
at a real electrical supply house.
George
>> I would avoid crimps for just one reason.
>> What if you had to replace an outlet, light fixture, or switch that went
>> bad, or wanted to upgrade to the latest and greatest fixtures or
>> switches? Would you rather just unscrew a wirenut, or try to get the
>> crimp off with a pair of pliers?
>
> With many people, (especially with those who live in countries where
> they are banned), there seems to be some sort of bias against the use
> of wire nuts, even though they are a perfectly acceptable and an NEC
> legally approved method of making splices. When done properly, by
> twisting the wires together with a pliers and applying the wire nut
> with a proper tightness, there is little chance the wire nut will come
> off or that the splice will become a high-resistance hot spot.
Wirenuts are properly applied by holding the wires parallel and then
twisting the wirenut.
>
> Wire nuts offer the advantages of simplicity, economy, speed, and the
> flexibility to make future changes without destroying the connecter.
>
> Open up enough outlet boxes where the splices have been taped after 5,
> 10, or 20 years and you will, more likely than not, find examples
> where the tape has dried up or even fallen off the splices it was
> intended to cover.
>
You won't see that if a quality tape such as Scotch 33 or 88 is used.
You will see that if you use that stuff commonly found at the big box
stores.
> Beachcomber
>
>
>
JoeSpareBedroom
No. I didn't say that. Wire nuts may be the only choice in a cramped box
where the wires are already too short for working with a crimper. But,
crimps are always the best way, when it's possible to use them.
JoeSpareBedroom
I suspect it accepts the practice because wire nuts are faster to apply than
crimps, and professionals like it that way.
dpb
You can "suspect" it all you want, but the real reason is that while it
is indeed, reasonably fast and inexpensive, _LOTS_ of empirical data and
lab testing confirm it is quite reliable and safe so more complex
methods are totally unnecessary. The point of the code is, of course,
to provide a safe and effective set of requirements to the practical
application. As someone else already noted, the Code wasn't begun by
government but by the insurance in order to provide the benefits
accruing to their members by the adherence to such standards.
Consequently, when Code is updated to account for new technology, the
prime consideration is that it meets these objectives.
--
JoeSpareBedroom
Probably all true. But, I'd like to know what types of people install the
wire nuts in testing situations. I've opened electrical boxes and found some
interesting horror shows. If they're installed by idiots, they are certainly
not safe.
CJT
why there are licenses and inspectors.
billder99
Brand new to this forum... great stuff here. Searching for info on
"wire nuts vs tape" is how I found this forum and thread.
My electrical sub-contractor has been splicing wires with electrical
tape. He insists that "3M-33 tape is acceptable for splicing #12 and
smaller conductors". I showed both him and my inspector NEC 110-14,
which includes the phrase: "... All splices, including ground wires,
shall be made with an approved splice cap or wire nut...". They still
say electric tape is acceptable, but can provide no evidence for this
assertion.
My question: Is there any code that specifically accepts, or denies,
the use of electrical tape for splices in residential electrical
installations, specifically for wire sizes #12 and smaller.
Thanks very much for your help in this.
Bill Doyle
The Construction Coach
JoeSpareBedroom
news:1185718020.5...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
This particular discussion has sort of died because people seem to think
it's done. You might want to re-post this as a top level new thread. You'll
probably get more responses.
Doug Miller
>Guys,
>
>Brand new to this forum... great stuff here. Searching for info on
>"wire nuts vs tape" is how I found this forum and thread.
>
>My electrical sub-contractor has been splicing wires with electrical
>tape. He insists that "3M-33 tape is acceptable for splicing #12 and
>smaller conductors". I showed both him and my inspector NEC 110-14,
>which includes the phrase: "... All splices, including ground wires,
>shall be made with an approved splice cap or wire nut...".
No, it doesn't. Not in the latest (2005) Code, anyway.
The entire 2005 NEC is available online here:
http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB
Neither that sentence, nor anything remotely similar to it, appears anywhere
in Article 110.14.
>They still
>say electric tape is acceptable, but can provide no evidence for this
>assertion.
The evidence is Article 110.14, which states clearly, "All splices and joints
and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent
to that of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the
purpose." [2005 NEC, Article 110.14(B), third sentence]
If the tape is listed as providing sufficient insulation, then it's ok.
>
>My question: Is there any code that specifically accepts, or denies,
>the use of electrical tape for splices in residential electrical
>installations, specifically for wire sizes #12 and smaller.
See above.
>
>Thanks very much for your help in this.
>
>Bill Doyle
>The Construction Coach
>
--
JoeSpareBedroom
obviously uncomfortable with electrical tape. It's his money. It doesn't
matter what the code says. It's not allowed in his home. I've used four
electricians in 20+ years. None of them have used electrical tape, except
one guy who used little bits of it to identify certain wires in a crowded
box while he wandered around working in other areas of the house. He removed
it when he was done.
Now, you could reverse this and ask "What if the customer insisted on tape,
and the code didn't allow it?" The answer is simple: He might find it
impossible to hire an electrician, and he'd have to find another way to get
what he wanted. Maybe do the work himself.
dpb
...
But that addresses the _insulation_ of a splice, not the mechanical
splice itself.
My reading/understanding of the question is that apparently, they're
allowing only a twisted connection covered by tape and I don't think
that is allowed if so...
Maybe again it goes back to the crimp vis a vis
wirenut, but that isn't specifically what this particular poster
stated/asked.
--
Moe Jones
>
> The entire 2005 NEC is available online here:
> http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB
>
Thanks for the web site. It will come in handy.
--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com
dpb
>
> 110.14(B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing
> devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering
> with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced
> or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without
> solder and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends
> of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that
> of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the
> purpose.
> burial shall be listed for such use.
Which if the question is to be taken literally as worded makes the
answer to the question "no", not "yes"... :)
--
Doug Miller
>
>But that addresses the _insulation_ of a splice, not the mechanical
>splice itself.
That seemed to be what the question was about...
>
>My reading/understanding of the question is that apparently, they're
>allowing only a twisted connection covered by tape and I don't think
>that is allowed if so...
As far as I can see, it *is* allowed.
kenk...@yaho.o.com
wrote:
Allowed or not, it's NOT safe. Quality tape is fine to cover bare
wires, but it does NOT clamp the ends of twisted connections. Tape is
only intended to cover bare wires, NOT to clamp the wires together.
If any twist is not perfect, it will likely vibrate loose over time
(or immediately), and start arcing. At least, this will cause light
to flicker and electronics to fry. At worst, it could cause a fire.
The wires have to be soldered, or clamped in another manner to
maintain a tight connection. This electrician must be a real cheap
son of a b****. Wirenuts cost 10 cents each (or less). How cheap can
he be. I'd either insist that he use wirenuts, or find another
electrician, and if you keep this one, the hourly wage spent nutting
all the wires should be on him, not on you.
By the way, I often see electricians wirenutting wires without
twisting them. This too is dangerous. Yes, I have done it for a
temporary connection, but not permanent.
JoeSpareBedroom
news:a2kra350tko79kfm7...@4ax.com...
> Allowed or not, it's NOT safe. Quality tape is fine to cover bare
> wires, but it does NOT clamp the ends of twisted connections. Tape is
> only intended to cover bare wires, NOT to clamp the wires together.
> If any twist is not perfect, it will likely vibrate loose over time
> (or immediately), and start arcing. At least, this will cause light
> to flicker and electronics to fry. At worst, it could cause a fire.
Sharp wire ends will also puncture tape, no matter how good the tape is.
billder99
the link to the NEC Online. In summary, the code does not forbid the
use of electrical tape as insulation on spliced wires (yes, insulation
removed, ends twisted).
JoeSpareBedroom
Don't do it.
bud--
The NEC does *NOT* permit twisting the wires and then just tapeing. See
gfretwell's post that includes:
"110.14(B) Splices. Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing
devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering
with a fusible metal or alloy."
(This is the equivalent in the current code of the quote in your
original post.)
Twisting the wires, with no solder or "splicing device identifified for
the use" [wirenut], is a code violation and is *insane*.
Twisting and soldering then tapeing is permitted.
(Twisting is not required with wirenuts unless the manufacturer requires
twisting.)
--
bud--
kenk...@yaho.o.com
wrote:
Jesus Christ, how cheap can you be? Go buy a pack of 50 red wirenuts
and 25 yellow ones, shove them in the guys face and tell him to use
them. You spent about $6 and saved your home and/or life. Also, when
it comes to adding an outlet or something later on, it will save the
next electrician 20 minutes of time to scrape the tape off.
dpb
It does, however, forbid splices that do not have an additional
mechanical fastening other than the twisting of the wires. At least,
that's my reading of it...
--
Chris Lewis
> Twisting the wires, with no solder or "splicing device identifified for
> the use" [wirenut], is a code violation and is *insane*.
No kidding. Sheesh!
A couple of thermal cycles later, you will almost certainly
have an intermittent, arcs, and possibly a fire.
The wire _must_ be positively connected, whether by wirenut,
solder or proper crimp device. Electrician's tape is an insulator,
not a crimp device.
--
Chris Lewis,
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
Doug Miller
the final say. In this case, it appears that local inspection authority said
OK. Probably shouldn't have...
JoeSpareBedroom
news:FCrri.478$qa3...@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
I think the OP came here looking for approval for something that already
happened, like there was no turning back.
Doug Miller
>"Doug Miller" <spam...@milmac.com> wrote in message
>news:FCrri.478$qa3...@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> In article <f8ld0e$pru$2...@aioe.org>, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:
>>>billder99 wrote:
>>>> Thanks very much for your responses Guys, and especially to Doug for
>>>> the link to the NEC Online. In summary, the code does not forbid the
>>>> use of electrical tape as insulation on spliced wires (yes, insulation
>>>> removed, ends twisted).
>>>
>>>It does, however, forbid splices that do not have an additional
>>>mechanical fastening other than the twisting of the wires. At least,
>>>that's my reading of it...
>>>
>> Quite true, it does. But also, per Code, the local inspection authority has
>> the final say. In this case, it appears that local inspection authority said
>> OK. Probably shouldn't have...
>
>happened, like there was no turning back.
A lot of people do that. They usually leave disappointed. :-)
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
frank megaweege
...>> The wire _must_ be positively connected, whether by wirenut,
> solder or proper crimp device. Electrician's tape is an insulator,
> not a crimp device.
I use tape as insurance. Use a wire nut, then wrap tape over that. I
suppose if the wire nut is on correctly it's not necessary, but it
makes me feel better.
CJT
<snip>
> By the way, I often see electricians wirenutting wires without
> twisting them. This too is dangerous. Yes, I have done it for a
> temporary connection, but not permanent.
Some wire nuts are designed specifically for _untwisted_ wires, and if
you twist them first you may be _weakening_ the connection.
Tim Smith
> and 25 yellow ones, shove them in the guys face and tell him to use
> them. You spent about $6 and saved your home and/or life. Also, when
> it comes to adding an outlet or something later on, it will save the
> next electrician 20 minutes of time to scrape the tape off.
...and save you the $25 the next electrician would charge for that 20
minutes.
Percival P. Cassidy
>> I think the OP came here looking for approval for something that already
>> happened, like there was no turning back.
> A lot of people do that. They usually leave disappointed. :-)
I am the OP. I came, not looking for approval of/for something that had
already happened but expressing amazement that what I found -- black
hots and red hots (thus with 220/240 volts between them), with crimped
connections and a few layers of insulation tape -- could ever have been
kosher.
I have remade the connections using wirenuts -- as I intended to do all
along.
Perce
fli...@card.com
>kenk...@yaho.o.com wrote:
><snip>
>> By the way, I often see electricians wirenutting wires without
>> twisting them. This too is dangerous. Yes, I have done it for a
>> temporary connection, but not permanent.
>
>Some wire nuts are designed specifically for _untwisted_ wires, and if
>you twist them first you may be _weakening_ the connection.
Just curious. How do you which are which? I have never seen anything
printed on the packages. I have always twisted wires. That's how I
was taught many years ago. It's easier not to twist, but twisting
seems to make the best connection. As for wirenuts, I dont see how
twisting could weaken the connection.... (unless twisted so much a
wire breaks).
Doug Miller
>On 07/30/07 04:29 pm Doug Miller wrote:
>
>>> I think the OP came here looking for approval for something that already
>>> happened, like there was no turning back.
>
>> A lot of people do that. They usually leave disappointed. :-)
>
>
>I am the OP. I came, not looking for approval of/for something that had
>already happened but expressing amazement that what I found -- black
>hots and red hots (thus with 220/240 volts between them), with crimped
>connections and a few layers of insulation tape -- could ever have been
>kosher.
Just for the record -- if they've been properly crimped and taped, that *does*
meet Code.
>
>I have remade the connections using wirenuts -- as I intended to do all
>along.
>
>Perce
--
Chris Lewis
> Just curious. How do you which are which? I have never seen anything
> printed on the packages. I have always twisted wires. That's how I
> was taught many years ago. It's easier not to twist, but twisting
> seems to make the best connection. As for wirenuts, I dont see how
> twisting could weaken the connection.... (unless twisted so much a
> wire breaks).
It supposedly says on the package. I've never seen it.
Some wirenuts are apparently designed to do the twist while
you turn them on. Saves a little time/fuss for the electrician,
which is why they design them that way. It's remotely possible
that some wirenuts designed for "no pretwist" may (meaning
"probably only rarely") overtwist the wire if you pre-twist it
anyway.
It's best to do what the package says, and err on the side
of pre-twist if it doesn't say.
bud--
> In article <1awri.746$9C7...@newsfe06.lga>, "Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.net> wrote:
>> On 07/30/07 04:29 pm Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>>>> I think the OP came here looking for approval for something that already
>>>> happened, like there was no turning back.
>>> A lot of people do that. They usually leave disappointed. :-)
>>
>> I am the OP. I came, not looking for approval of/for something that had
>> already happened but expressing amazement that what I found -- black
>> hots and red hots (thus with 220/240 volts between them), with crimped
>> connections and a few layers of insulation tape -- could ever have been
>> kosher.
>
> Just for the record -- if they've been properly crimped and taped, that *does*
> meet Code.
I agree.
The thread took a different turn with a related question from bilder99.
There is no indication in his posts that mechanical device or solder was
used.
bilder99 was not looking for approval of what was happening. He thought
what was happening wrong and wanted a 'second opinion'.
--
bud--