What sort of outlet pressure can a sump-pump generate?

[Home Guy]

I've been looking around for a cheap pump that can I can use to move
water around from various 55-gallon rain-water collection drums. I'd
also like the pump to be able to develop some decent pressure to push
water to at least a single sprinkler head.

Spending more than $100 sort-of defeats the purpose of collecting rain
water to begin with, so something like a convertable jet-pump (minimum
$250 around here) is out of the question.

There are some 1/6 to 1/3 hp sump pumps that I can get for $50 to $75,
but I'd have to modify them so I can attach an inlet hose (most of my
drums are sealed with only a 2" opening at the top so the sump-pump
can't be dropped down into the drum).

So - can a sump pump be modified to be able to draw water from an inlet
line - or will priming it be a bitch? And can then generate enough
pressure (what - 20 to 40 psi?) to drive water through a 50-foot garden
hose and a single sprinker head?

[DD_BobK]

I'd could answer your question but I won't since I'm one of those GG
morons.

I just couldn't resist..............

Here's your answers

"Probably not but maybe"...... depending on pump design.
It would be easy for me but YMMV.
"Yes, probably" but the exact answer depends on the characteristics of
the pump and the flow & pressure requirements of the sprinkler.

:)

[Molly Brown]

On Apr 1, 5:48 pm, Home Guy <H...@Guy.com> wrote:

Have you considered "passive irrigation"?

[Harry K]

On Apr 1, 5:48 pm, Home Guy <H...@Guy.com> wrote:

In general, sump pumps are volume not pressure pumps. An impulse
sprinkler needs 30 psi or more to operate reliably IME. You could
check the pump ratings which will be in the literture wth the pump.

There are many "shallow well" pumps out there that are available
cheap..d

Your design would call for the water to be gravity drained into a
bucket, tank etc and pumped from there.

Harry K

[Bob F]

Sump pumps are designed for neither. A self priming sprinkler pump would be a
better bet. Bottom of the drum outlets would help with the priming issue.

[Smarty]

> Good tutorial on pump selection including outlet pressure (PSI) versus head height discussion can be found here:
http://www.pumpfundamentals.com/images/tutorial/tutorial.pdf

[Art Todesco]

I was looking at the Harbor Freight shallow well pump for a similar use.
When on sale, it is about $80. I was thinking of getting it to pump
water from my running stream to connect to the house for water when
there is a power failure using my generator. My regular water comes
from a community well which is not close enough to power from my house.
The only reason I haven't done it is because it is not a priority as
we rarely have long power outages. Actually during the one 10 hour
outage (tree fell on the line feeding my area), I never ran out of
water. As there are only 3 houses on that well, with pretty low usage,
the piping going up to the well, maybe 75 feet up the mountain, acted
like a storage tank.

[paulaner]

I second the suggestion to use a passive system. I use a length of
soaker hose to slowly drain the tank. You may need to poke a little
hole in the hose at various watering points since there isn't any real
pressure, but it works well and is the green thing to do. :)

[Home Guy]

Molly Brown wrote:

> Have you considered "passive irrigation"?

No, because a sprinkler head I can move around beats the time and effort
and perceived coverage efficiency and water-delivery-rate of a hose with
a bunch of holes punched through it.

Also, I need to move the rain water from the point where it's collected
to the area where I want to keep the 1/2 dozen or so drums. Need a pump
to do that because it's up hill.

[Home Guy]

DD_BobK wrote:

> > I've been looking around for a cheap pump that can I can use to
> > move water around from various 55-gallon rain-water collection
> > drums.
>

> I'd could answer your question but I won't since I'm one of those
> GG morons.
>
> I just couldn't resist..............

I see that the flood-gates have opened and all the trapped google-posts
are flooding back to usenet-proper.

Welcome back.

> Here's your answers
>
> "Probably not but maybe"...... depending on pump design.

How many different designs are there for your typical fractional-hp sump
pump?

> It would be easy for me but YMMV.

Easy - to do what? Add a hose connection to the inlet of a sump pump?

> "Yes, probably" but the exact answer depends on the characteristics
> of the pump and the flow & pressure requirements of the sprinkler.

So in other words, you don't know what static pressure a $50 or $75 1/3
to 1/6 hp sump pump can generate, and you've never modified a sump pump
to give it a hose inlet so you don't know how much head they could
draw.........

[Home Guy]

Smarty wrote:

> Good tutorial on pump selection including outlet pressure (PSI)
> versus head height discussion can be found here:
> http://www.pumpfundamentals.com/images/tutorial/tutorial.pdf

Doesn't talk about design differences (if there are any) between, say, a
sump pump and a jet pump.

Maybe they're all the same?

[Smarty]

The tutorial isn't about the various types of pumps. It is more specific
to the question in the original post regarding PSI at the outlet and how
to calculate it.

[DD_BobK]

Bummer..... you don't know enough to understand an answer when it's
given to you.

[DD_BobK]

HG-

Your assumed answers are incorrect......

I can & did answer your questions...... unfortunately, for you, more
than a bit cryptically

Try the following:
learn to read a pump curve
research the concept of NPSH.
stop using pump terminology you don't understand

someone who's looking for help should consider being less of an AH

[Home Guy]

Smarty wrote:

> > Doesn't talk about design differences (if there are any) between,
> > say, a sump pump and a jet pump.
>

> The tutorial isn't about the various types of pumps. It is more
> specific to the question in the original post regarding PSI at
> the outlet and how to calculate it.

The original question was - what static pressure can sump pumps
generate.

The material in that PDF file does not give any real-world performance
examples or numbers regarding sump pumps.

[Home Guy]

DD_BobK wrote:

> > Doesn't talk about design differences (if there are any) between,
> > say, a sump pump and a jet pump.
>

> Bummer..... you don't know enough to understand an answer when
> it's given to you.

If the PDF file contains information (hard numbers) as to the static
pressure that sump pumps can generate, then why don't you stop being an
ass and tell us on what page that information can be found.

[Home Guy]

DD_BobK wrote:

> I can & did answer your questions......

Can a sump pump be used to drive a single residential sprinkler head
through 50-ft of 3/4" garden hose.

Stop pretending that you've answered that question. It makes you look
silly.

[denni...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 1, 2012 8:48:26 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
> So - can a sump pump be modified to be able to draw water from an inlet
> line - or will priming it be a bitch? And can then generate enough
> pressure (what - 20 to 40 psi?) to drive water through a 50-foot garden
> hose and a single sprinker head?

Simple solution:

Obtain 5 gallon bucket and approximately 6-8 feet of garden hose.
Drop sump pump into bucket.
Position bucket next to collection barrel.
Insert short garden hose into collection barrel.
Suck on said hose to create siphon.
Allow siphon to fill 5 gallon bucket.
Allow sump pump to empty 5 gallon bucket.

[Bob F]

Yes, one can.

Most of the others cannot.

Stop pretending you can think, and actually do it.

[Bob F]

Maybe they are not.

[Harry K]

And that answwer the 'how much pressure' just how?

Harry K

[DD_BobK]

What goes around, comes around.
You reap what you sow.
Being an AH has consequences.......

[DD_BobK]

Hint #1:
What are the flow & pressure requirements of your chosen sprinkler
head?

Hint #2:
Flow & pressure capacity of potential pump?
Read the pump curve.

Hint #3:
Pressure drop characteristics of garden hose?

That should be more than enough for you to figure this out.
Plus, just think about the feeling of accomplishment when you do!

PS.... the silly one is the one who doesn't know. (that would be you)

[jbcun...@verizon.net]

If you have an air compressor attach it to your water storage drums or rain barrels with a
tube that goes to the bottom of the rain barrel and a air fitting that connects to your air compresser hose . The air compressor will give you the pressure you need to drive the water out of the barrel and up and out the water tube hanging in the barrel connected to the sprinkler head .
Might need a compressor with a air storage tank ?
Again as with water pumps it depends on the capacity of the air pump .
And the air pump could be used for lots of other projects.

[Oren]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:21:29 -0700 (PDT), jbcun...@verizon.net
wrote:

>On Sunday, April 1, 2012 at 8:48:26 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:

Home Guy died some years ago, morphed into other names and is now
known a Moocow.

[realjo...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 1, 2012 at 8:48:26 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:

I am writing from the future - long after this original post. I similarly wanted to know the approximate psi of an average or any hp sump pump. I arrived at this thread and found no answer but just bunch of guys saying, " We do not have the answer, because we are smarter than you, but here is a reference to a pump engineering guide that will help you calculate something."

[trader_4]

I think what you are asking is what is the max pressure that a given sump
pump can generate. If they don't have it in the pump spec, they should
have the max lift height of the pump. One foot of lift is .43 PSI.
The actual pressure in any application depends on the lift, pipe size,
length, etc.

[Bob F]

Basically, a sump pump is unlikely to produce enough pressure for a
sprinkler, which typically need a minimum of 20 psi to work properly,
and often twice that.

[rachelle...@gmail.com]

Hi! This is a bit of a long shot as I know this thread is old, but I was just wondering if you ever figured out a solution for your rain barrel?

I'm in a similar situation... My rain barrel just drains so SLOWLY. I'd like to hook up a proper hose and nozzle, or even a sprinkler...

Did a sump pump work?

I was thinking of cutting open the lid of mine to make it removable, that way I could completely submerged the pump.

I'd love to hear from you! Thanks!

[trader_4]

Since you want pressure to run a sprinkler, why are you looking at sump pumps
instead of a water pump used for a well?

[Ed Pawlowski]

Probably cost. Sump pumps can be had for $125. Well pumps $1500 and up

[trader_4]

IDK what well pumps you're looking at or where you get your prices,
but a basic well pump can be had for $125 too. What well pump costs $1500?
Even typical submersible costs less than half that. For something like
this, can probably find low cost or used ones on Ebay too.

[dpb]

On 4/17/2019 4:50 PM, trader_4 wrote:
...

> IDK what well pumps you're looking at or where you get your prices,
> but a basic well pump can be had for $125 too. What well pump costs $1500?
> Even typical submersible costs less than half that. For something like
> this, can probably find low cost or used ones on Ebay too.

Probably the cost of the snubber to fit a barrel... :)

Seems like overkill to me for the purpose, though, too...guess depends
on just how big the rain barrel really is--just a 55-gal drum wouldn't
go all that far or last long.

A 4" 1/2hp on Amazon for $110+free shipping is still 25 gpm nominal
barring the outflow restriction to a 5/8" garden hose or the like...of
course it's max 125-ft/85-ft rated head and with no lifting loss would
be near 50 psi exit pressure one would guess (presuming numbers aren't
grossly overstated).

For half that, could go with a general submersible plastic utility pump
(Superior Pump 91250) that's 25-ft head/30 gpm that's probably a lot
more suitable to purpose.

--

[trader_4]

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 6:12:58 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
> On 4/17/2019 4:50 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> ...
>
> > IDK what well pumps you're looking at or where you get your prices,
> > but a basic well pump can be had for $125 too. What well pump costs $1500?
> > Even typical submersible costs less than half that. For something like
> > this, can probably find low cost or used ones on Ebay too.
>
> Probably the cost of the snubber to fit a barrel... :)
>
> Seems like overkill to me for the purpose, though, too...guess depends
> on just how big the rain barrel really is--just a 55-gal drum wouldn't
> go all that far or last long.

That's a very good point. Especially since they mentioned a sprinkler.
One head is typically 2 GPM. If you have 3, the barrel will last less
than 10 mins. And if you're trying to water turf, that amount is pointless.
Most of that will just get it wet, barely start to penetrate, most will be lost
to evaporation as it dries out, unless you can continue with another water
source. If you do the math, to put down 0.5" of water over any reasonable
area takes a lot of water. It's thousands of gallons to water my front lawn.

[dpb]

On 4/17/2019 5:24 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 6:12:58 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
>> On 4/17/2019 4:50 PM, trader_4 wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> IDK what well pumps you're looking at or where you get your prices,
>>> but a basic well pump can be had for $125 too. What well pump costs $1500?
>>> Even typical submersible costs less than half that. For something like
>>> this, can probably find low cost or used ones on Ebay too.
>>
>> Probably the cost of the snubber to fit a barrel... :)
>>
>> Seems like overkill to me for the purpose, though, too...guess depends
>> on just how big the rain barrel really is--just a 55-gal drum wouldn't
>> go all that far or last long.
>
> That's a very good point. Especially since they mentioned a sprinkler.
> One head is typically 2 GPM. If you have 3, the barrel will last less
> than 10 mins. And if you're trying to water turf, that amount is pointless.
> Most of that will just get it wet, barely start to penetrate, most will be lost
> to evaporation as it dries out, unless you can continue with another water
> source. If you do the math, to put down 0.5" of water over any reasonable
> area takes a lot of water. It's thousands of gallons to water my front lawn.

...

Indeed...well let's see

>> G2CF=@(g) 0.133681*g; % gal to cu-ft
>> A=20*20; G=55; % 20x20 sprinkler area, 55 gal drum
>> fnDPTH=@(h) A*12*h-G2CF(G); % vol over A of h less total volume G gal
>> d=fzero(fnDPTH,0.1) % how much can put on area A with 55 gal?
d =
0.0015
>>

So, assuming a 20x20 sprinkler area, 55 gal would be about 1.5
thousandths of an inch... :)

(Yes, it's solvable by simple straight algebra, but since we're
overthinking a problem here anyway, let's keep up the tradition...)

--

[dpb]

On 4/17/2019 6:59 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 4/17/2019 5:24 PM, trader_4 wrote:

...

>> ... If you do the math, to put down 0.5" of water over any reasonable

>> area takes a lot of water.  It's thousands of gallons to water my
>> front lawn.
> ...
>
> Indeed...well let's see
>
> >> G2CF=@(g) 0.133681*g;       % gal to cu-ft
> >> A=20*20; G=55;              % 20x20 sprinkler area, 55 gal drum
> >> fnDPTH=@(h) A*12*h-G2CF(G); % vol over A of h less total volume G gal
> >> d=fzero(fnDPTH,0.1)         % how much can put on area A with 55 gal?
> d =
>     0.0015
> >>
>
> So, assuming a 20x20 sprinkler area, 55 gal would be about 1.5
> thousandths of an inch... :)
>
> (Yes, it's solvable by simple straight algebra, but since we're
> overthinking a problem here anyway, let's keep up the tradition...)
>

To beat the horse entirely to death... :)

>> H=0.5; % let's put down 1/2" over same A
>> fnGAL=@(g) A*12*H-G2CF(g); % solve for g, not h
>> G=round(fzero(fnGAL,1000),-1)
G =
17950
>>

or almost 18,000 gal.

Of course, when one considers real irrigation of putting down over a
growing season an acre-foot over a 127A circle it sorta' pales... :)

--

[dpb]

On 4/17/2019 7:31 PM, dpb wrote:
...

> To beat the horse entirely to death... :)
>
> >> H=0.5;                             % let's put down 1/2" over same A
> >> fnGAL=@(g) A*12*H-G2CF(g);         % solve for g, not h
> >> G=round(fzero(fnGAL,1000),-1)
> G =
>        17950
> >>
>
> or almost 18,000 gal.

...

>> G/55
ans =
326.3636
>>

Cover the yard with rain barrels and won't need to water... :)

A standard 55 gal drum is 22.5" diam so the assumed area A of 20x20 ft
sq would hold

>> 20*12/22.5
ans =
10.6667
>>
on a side or only roughly one-third as many as needed.

OK, I'm done... :)

--

[Ed Pawlowski]

OK, I see some shallow well pumps cheap. Grundfos deep well high
capacity are easily $1500
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Grundfos-3-Constant-Pressure-Submersible-Well-Pump-22SQE15-220-1-5HP-CU301-KIT-/230866910833

[Clare Snyder]

I use a "pony pump" tp punp water from my 4 rain barrels.300gph at
about 5psi

[Bob F]

Or a sprinkler pump perhaps.

[Dean Hoffman]

What about cutting a hole in the side toward the bottom? You
could use a bulkhead
tank fitting and a shutoff valve. Then even a drill powered pump would
work if you want to generate some pressure. Use one of those sprinkler
hoses. There are spray nozzles for center pivots that don't require
much pressure to work. Those 55 gallons won't go far anyhow.
This is a bulkhead tank fitting:
<https://www.amazon.com/Joywayus-Connector-Bulkhead-Fitting-Stablizing/dp/B07GPWD6XQ/ref=asc_df_B07GPWD6XQ/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adposition}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583451662957168&psc=1>

OR http://tinyurl.com/y37up4ft

[Dean Hoffman]

On 4/16/19 5:39 PM, rachelle...@gmail.com wrote:

Just how big is this rain barrel? A barrel in my world is
usually 55 gallons.
It's about waist high and maybe a couple feet in diameter. The
definition gets
a little loose after that. The words tank and barrel are sometimes used
interchangeably.

[trader_4]

Something there does not compute. Intuitively it sounds way off.
So, in my head, a barrel is ~ 3ft diameter? That gives an area of
~2.25 x 3 = 6 sq ft. Call it 5 sq ft. 20ftx20ft is 400 sq ft.
Which is 80 times the area of the barrel. The barrel is about 4 ft high,
50 inches. Reduce 50 inches of water height by a factor of 80 and
you have about 5/8" of water over 400 sq ft. Yes?

[Art Todesco]

And to beat the dead horse even deader, Harbor Freight has a shallow
well pump for $160 at
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-hp-stainless-steel-shallow-well-pump-and-tank-with-pressure-control-switch-950-gph-63407.html.


Also, as to regular sump pumps, I have an on-top-of-the-basement-floor
sump tank that takes water from a sink in the basement. I used an old
sump pump to pump the water up about 9' and dump it outside. It goes
out through a 1" PVC pipe and comes out with considerable pressure. But
I really don't know any specifics of the pump, like the max head that it
can pump. If the pump's max head lift is 10', that would calculate down
to about 4 psi at the pump. Most are higher than 10'. If it were 20',
the pressure would be about 8 psi at the pump.

And 3rdly, an RV pump might work for this dead horse. There are several
pumps at http://goldmine-elec-products.com/ that could work.

[trader_4]

Which is an example of why I questioned looking at sump pumps. The OP
said watering including a sprinkler. Typical sprinkler is expecting
~50 PSI.

>
> And 3rdly, an RV pump might work for this dead horse. There are several
> pumps at http://goldmine-elec-products.com/ that could work.

Not likely to work for a sprinkler IMO.

[Teresa Maynot]

Prolly just another drive-by question from the homo-click-bait-hub

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[Colonel Edmund J. Burke]

What you really need to get is a life, anus.
LOL