insulating toilet tanks
Jules Richardson
One of our bathroom toilet tanks 'sweats' badly at this time of year -
the outside of the tank is covered in condensation and it puddles on the
floor beneath. I was thinking of retro-fitting some insulation to the
inside of the tank (I don't want to mess with adding a warm-water feed,
and the tank's a nice old decorative one, so I'd rather not replace it
with a modern one that has a double wall or built-in insulation)
Questions:
1) how thick does the insulation need to be? Is 1/4" probably enough?
(that's perhaps something of a "how long is a piece of string" question;
I think I'm dealing with a max temperature differential between water and
air of 35 degrees)
2) What adhesive to use? Needs to be water-resistant, obviously, but also
something that's suitable for styrofoam and won't destroy it...
(alternately, I could just buy a kit, I suppose - they seem to be about
$30 online. Not sure if HD etc. carry them...)
cheers
Jules
Bob Villa
The toilet I have (Mansfield) has styrofoam attached with silicone.
They only last a few years and start to sweat again!
Next, I'm going with the Sloan system (with the internal pressure
tank).
JoeSpareBedroom
news:e88b188c-d282-4276...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
==========
I had the same problem with an insulated tank in my prior home.
I've always wondered if someone made some sort of holding tank that could be
installed in the basement. Big enough to hold water for 2-3 flushes. All it
would need to do is "park" some water long enough for it to come closer to
room temperature. Even if the basement's not as warm as the upstairs, it
would usually still be warmer than the coldest groundwater.
notbob
> I think I'm dealing with a max temperature differential between water and
> air of 35 degrees)
I also have to assume you live in an area with high humidity, correct?
If this sweating/dripping problem doesn't last too long in your
season, might a small tropical acquarium heater decrease the temp
differential in the tank water if you don't flush too often? Jes a
thought.
nb
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
That's thinking out of the box - a great idea.
EXT
"JoeSpareBedroom" <news...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:s2Bao.18173$EF1....@newsfe14.iad...
I had the equivalent of that when I was on well water. A 20 gallon tank of
water in the basement that, during summer, sat in a puddle for months.
Unfortunately, it didn't warm the water fast enough as the toilet tank still
sweated until I put central air in the house, then both the toilet and the
pump pressure tank immediately stopped sweating.
Steve Barker
the trick is to lower the humidity in the house. And as a by-product of
such action, the house will be a lot more comfortable to live in also.
Try running the a/c.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
Robert Neville
>I've always wondered if someone made some sort of holding tank that could be
>installed in the basement. Big enough to hold water for 2-3 flushes. All it
>would need to do is "park" some water long enough for it to come closer to
>room temperature. Even if the basement's not as warm as the upstairs, it
>would usually still be warmer than the coldest groundwater.
The problem is that most people want their cold water cold. To do what you
suggest would require a separate feed for the toilets which would add cost.
Really better to take the toilet supply from the hot side - problem solved.
willshak
Like others have mentioned, I too had styrofoam lining the inside of the
tank. It was from a kit that I bought. I think the lining was 3/8" thick.
I was on well water, so the water entering the tank was about 60 degrees F.
I then got central AC so the lining wasn't necessary anymore. I had a
b***h of a time removing the glued on styrofoam lining from the tank.
JoeSpareBedroom
news:3f4m661jtmkb2b6be...@4ax.com...
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <news...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
>>I've always wondered if someone made some sort of holding tank that could
>>be
>>installed in the basement. Big enough to hold water for 2-3 flushes. All
>>it
>>would need to do is "park" some water long enough for it to come closer to
>>room temperature. Even if the basement's not as warm as the upstairs, it
>>would usually still be warmer than the coldest groundwater.
>
> The problem is that most people want their cold water cold. To do what you
> suggest would require a separate feed for the toilets which would add
> cost.
That's a pretty absolute statement, even though it's not true in all cases.
In my home (a ranch), the toilet, tub and sink each have separate supply
pipes coming up from the basement. It would cost nothing extra to insert a
tank in the line for the toilet.
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
Ed Pawlowski
"willshak" <will...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote
>
> Like others have mentioned, I too had styrofoam lining the inside of the
> tank. It was from a kit that I bought. I think the lining was 3/8" thick.
> I was on well water, so the water entering the tank was about 60 degrees
> F.
> I then got central AC so the lining wasn't necessary anymore. I had a
> b***h of a time removing the glued on styrofoam lining from the tank.
Why would you remove it? It won't hurt anything left in there.
NGDirect
"JoeSpareBedroom" <news...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:s2Bao.18173$EF1....@newsfe14.iad...
I'd heard one time about using a 10 ft length of 3 inch or 4 inch PVC hung
from the rafters, then reduce each end to the 1/2 or 3/4 inch waterline
size. The idea was to have that in the line leading to the water heater to
let a few gallons of water warm to inside temp before entering the heater,
reducing the amount of time and energy needed to heat it. Same idea would
probably work for the feed to the toilet.
The Daring Dufas
It's called a "tempering tank" which is usually used to help the
efficiency of a water heater by absorbing heat from the surrounding
environment to warm the water supplying the heater. I've seen old
water heaters with the insulation removed used for the purpose but
I'm sure a plumbing supply house could supply you with a new tank
that is uninsulated. You might be able to get hold of a used tank
made for well pumps and use it without the bladder pressurized for
a tempering tank to supply the toilets. Here's a link to a tank
manufacturer:
http://www.westank.com/index.php
TDD
jamesgangnc
wrote:
> On 8/17/2010 2:03 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Regular well tanks don't do anything to insure that the water is
forced to pass through the tank. And old hot water heater would do a
better job. The idea about a section of 3 or 4" pvc is probably the
best. An aquarium heater is a bad idea as they are not properly
designed to be in contact with your water supply safety wise.
I would not expect the pressurized bladder toilets to solve it
either. The bladder still sits against the porcelan.
The Daring Dufas
If you can find a 50' coil of 3/4" copper pipe at a good price, it can
be attached to a basement ceiling or wall, perhaps near a floor drain
to handle any condensation. The cold supply water flowing through such
a coil should be up to room temperature after a trip through the pipe.
TDD
JoeSpareBedroom
news:i4gpf8$dll$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Of course, that copper pipe will sweat just like the toilet tank did, so
allowances should be made to catch the drip. :-)
Jules Richardson
> Like others have mentioned, I too had styrofoam lining the inside of the
> tank. It was from a kit that I bought. I think the lining was 3/8"
> thick. I was on well water, so the water entering the tank was about 60
> degrees F.
Yeah, same deal here - well water sits at around 55 all year, although
our hottest days are around 90 and it hits -20 in winter (with the
basement then at around 60F).
Jules Richardson
Hmm, possibly... yes, the really hot season is reasonably short here
(northern MN) - so I don't like the idea of a hot water feed just because
it's wasteful for most of the year; but some kind of local heater that I
could easily turn off wouldn't be so bad.
jamesgangnc
wrote:
> "The Daring Dufas" <the-daring-du...@peckerhead.net> wrote in messagenews:i4gpf8$dll$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> - Show quoted text -
I thinkl the 4" pvc would be a better and cheaper solution. If the
basement ceiling is unfinished or accesible it would be easy to run a
8' piece of it between joists. Even if you had to double back with a
piece of 3/4" pvc.
Jules Richardson
> I've always wondered if someone made some sort of holding tank that
> could be installed in the basement. Big enough to hold water for 2-3
> flushes. All it would need to do is "park" some water long enough for it
> to come closer to room temperature. Even if the basement's not as warm
> as the upstairs, it would usually still be warmer than the coldest
> groundwater.
Yeah, that's not a bad idea, or at least a few coils as someone else
suggested. I've actually got around 60' of 3/4" copper that I'll be
pulling out of the house (feeds to old water-filled radiators that we no
longer need) - but that's only a little over a gallon if I have my
numbers right.
Sticking one of the old radiators on the outside wall of the house and
diverting water via that might work (after all, it's only a problem when
the weather's hot :-) but then I'd have to remember to bypass and drain
the darn thing during winter.
Adding some styrofoam seems like a cheap and quick solution and one that
needs no maintenance - it's just down to a question of how thick to make
it, how long it'll last, and what to attach it with.
cheers
Jules
The Daring Dufas
The reason I mentioned is because I often have to make such a heat
exchanger for restaurant ice machines. A coil of 3/8" is attached
to the ceiling of the walk-in cooler to chill the water supplying
the ice machine to increase its efficiency. Quite often the ice
machine is in a hot kitchen and the cold water lines feeding the
ice machine picks up this heat and it can't produce much ice.
TDD
JoeSpareBedroom
news:i4grg7$55c$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
Another potential problem with styrofoam is that is can displace just enough
water to keep the toilet from functioning correctly. If the water level's
already as high as it can be (based on the toilet's internals), there would
be no way to compensate for the lost water volume.
Jules Richardson
> Another potential problem with styrofoam is that is can displace just
> enough water to keep the toilet from functioning correctly. If the water
> level's already as high as it can be (based on the toilet's internals),
> there would be no way to compensate for the lost water volume.
Yes, this one's OK I believe - the level's quite a way below the inlet. I
was planning on putting a housebrick or something in the tank first as a
test just to occupy space and see if everything still worked :-)
Jim Elbrecht
Just to add to the negatives on Styrofoam-- Mine started breaking
down after a few year and beads kept getting caught in the flapper.
After about the 10th time that happened it was a major PITA to get the
rest of it out.
Jim
JoeSpareBedroom
news:dl0o665bs6mp3tk5u...@4ax.com...
Duh. That's why there's scuba gear. Don't you know anything?
:-)
jamesgangnc
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:24:05 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
>
And as anyone with a hot tub and a cover knows, styrofoam eventually
becomes water logged.
RES
"JoeSpareBedroom" <news...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:tTRao.18336$EF1....@newsfe14.iad...
> "The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote in message
> news:i4gpf8$dll$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On 8/18/2010 7:11 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
>>> On Aug 18, 1:12 am, The Daring Dufas<the-daring-du...@peckerhead.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 8/17/2010 2:03 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Bob Villa"<pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:e88b188c-d282-4276...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Aug 17, 11:39 am, Jules Richardson
>>>>> <jules.richardsonnews...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> One of our bathroom toilet tanks 'sweats' badly at this time of
>>>>>> year -
>>>>>> the outside of the tank is covered in condensation and it puddles on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> floor beneath. I was thinking of retro-fitting some insulation to the
>>>>>> inside of the tank (I don't want to mess with adding a warm-water
>>>>>> feed,
>>>>>> and the tank's a nice old decorative one, so I'd rather not replace
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> with a modern one that has a double wall or built-in insulation)
>>>>
Since it is "one of our." rather than "our only," then why not just use a
different toilet? The water's temperature in the tank will soon exceed the
dew point of the bathroom and the condensation will stop. If the toilet is
the only one that's convenient, then the tempering tank solution would
probably be advisable. If the toilet is essential to your bathroom décor,
consider removing the old tank, scrubbing it out with an acid solution to
get it perfectly clean, then spraying on an insulating, closed cell, foam on
the inside. This should eliminate gaps. It sounds like you have an older
toilet, and the reduction in flushing water volume would probably not affect
the action. However, replacing the innards with a pressurized flushing
system would eliminate the issue.
Nonny
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
> "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstr...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>
> news:tTRao.18336$EF1....@newsfe14.iad...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "The Daring Dufas" <the-daring-du...@peckerhead.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, the trick is to use something with closed cells. There is a
pinkish packing material that is somewhat denser than stryrofoam that
seems to be closed cell that might work ok, but I don't now what it is
called. I think anything over 1/4 inch would work, the trick is to
keep water from circulating behind the material. The pressurized
systems that I have seen/heard are too noisy to have to listen to in
the middle of the night when someone flushes. I vaguely remember
seeing toilet tank insulation kits somewhere. Have you googled on
that topic???
Michael B
On Aug 17, 2:39 pm, Jules Richardson
<jules.richardsonnews...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One of our bathroom toilet tanks 'sweats' badly at this time of year -
> the outside of the tank is covered in condensation and it puddles on the
> floor beneath. I was thinking of retro-fitting some insulation to the
> inside of the tank (I don't want to mess with adding a warm-water feed,
> and the tank's a nice old decorative one, so I'd rather not replace it
> with a modern one that has a double wall or built-in insulation)
>
Steve Barker
MAN! ain't that the truth? Our hot tub cover got so heavy we could
barely open it! I 'bout threw the new one off onto the ground the first
few times i grabbed it.
beecrofter
When I had a toilet sweating problem it was a faulty ballcock letting
a constant stream of cool water into the tank.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
wrote:
>Make sure it isn't running constantly and running up your water bill.
>When I had a toilet sweating problem it was a faulty ballcock letting
>a constant stream of cool water into the tank.
They used to make tank covers to keep toilets from sweating. I haven't seen
one for years, though. I have a broken tank lid (repaired but unsightly) and
really don't want to replace the entire commode. :-(
