use of a vacuum by painting contractor
rank beginner
We're having our house painted and we have been very satisfied with
this contractor from the
get-go...He came recommended to us through friends & we saw his work
first-hand on their large, new house (ours is not a McMansion and is an
older home). The contractor has been everything we could have hoped
for, excellent quality work (so far), on time every day, great
communcations, price, etc. Now along comes our otherwise-great neighbor
next door and when the topic of our house being painted came up, he
mentioned that the contractor is not using a vacuum...He says the one
he and another neighbor used had a vacuum and that it's required by the
town. I figure he's right, I had heard of this being an ordinance in
some towns, it just didn't occur to me that it might be one in mine! So
he goes on about how my beloved contractor can get summoned, fined, and
even disallowed from working again in the town if he gets
caught.....and that its important to use one because of health &
environmental concerns. I replied that perhaps in the case of an entire
house being sanded before painting, then yes, especially if the house
has very old paint on it, which increases the odds that it would have
lead in it. I told him that neither of those fits my case and that he
shouldn't worry.
Later I got to thinking how ridiculous the comment was...I mean there
are worse environmental hazards than a little bit of paint particles
being strewn in the air (house only partly sanded). Maybe he just
wanted to inform me, but still it took some of the joy out of the fact
we were getting a spanking new paint job on the house...
The supposed environmental concern I think is overblown...driving an
SUV, for example, probably has an infinitely greater environmental
footprint than ground up latex resin, solvent, and colorant. Besides,
not every contractor can likely afford an extra piece of equipment like
those vacuums. Neighbor probably thought we were getting it done on the
cheap, but price, while fair, was not significantly less than all the
other proposals we priced.
Was the neighbor making a valid point on the importance of using these
particulate-vacuums when sanding or is he perhaps just was a bit
envious of how nice the house is looking? :-)
Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?
Best Regards,
Chris
Norminn
>
> Was the neighbor making a valid point on the importance of using these
> particulate-vacuums when sanding or is he perhaps just was a bit
> envious of how nice the house is looking? :-)
>
> Do you think it should be left up to the discretion of the contractor
> to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
> be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Chris
>
Gee .. this is a new one. Your town probably has a website listing city
codes. I would frame the question to the contractur, being sure to
mention the source. If it is a real requirement, that should prompt the
contractor to comply. Perhaps it is only required for lead paint, but
that suggests you must test first.
If you sand lead paint, and it is a nice warm day with windows open, you
can really create an indoor lead problem from the residue or from
breathing dust outdoors.
We had a major disaster when our condo was pressure washed, because the
previous paint job was so awful. Tons of peeling paint, probably with
lead in older layers, that we knew would come off, so hubby and I
devised a way to catch it and dispose of it. One allowable way of
disposing, at the time, was to put it in the dumpster .. trash in
dumpsters is incinerated, so I don't know what that saves the
environment. Laws don't always make sense :o) Most of the boaters I
know dump expended batteries in the ocean, along with their soda cans
and plastic bags.
We could just as easily let the paint lay on the ground, let it dry, and
vaccum it up, but it would have been all over the landscaping.
oklaman
know would never dump a battery in the water.
oh well. let the grandkids worry about it. that seems to be the norm
nowadays.
"Norminn" <nor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nD9Vg.5382$Y24....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Pat
For houses without lead-based paint, who cares?
For houses WITH lbp, it's a real and valid concern. So the first
question is, does you house have lbp? If not, you should assume it
does.
For lbp, there are various levels of work. Your contractor should be
using "safe work practices" as you are are seeking lead "control", NOT
abatement.
An important part of lead control is stabilization. You need a good
surface for your new paint. If there is lead, sand is a no-no. You
can scrape it, you can remove it (but not with heat), you can remove
the wood, or you can wet-sand it. Regular sanding is bad.
At the end, you should seek "clearance" of the house. On Federally
funded projects, clearance is a requirement. Basically, the contractor
should clean up all remnants of lead, including particle on the ground.
They typically use a HEPA vacuum for this, but there are other ways,
too. But if the house has lead paint, you should check your drip-line
to see if the ground is already contaminated. If so, you have options
but you need to deal with that lead, too. Planting bushed is an
option, as is removal of the soil.
As for the town's ordinance, who knows. It would be understandable to
enforce lbp requirements on houses with lbp or who's status is not
know. For houses known to be lead free (from testing or age), it
wouldn't make much sense -- but who ever said laws make sense.
My suggestion is that you test the paint to figure out what's going on.
Even a do-it-yourself test kit from the hardware store is better than
not knowing. Test ALL layers, not just the top -- you can use a knife
to cut through them to the base wood.
Finally, a suggestions for you to make to your painter. Tell him that
there are lots of lead-training courses out there. Most are 1-day but
a supervisor's course is longer (3 days?). Most are free. If he takes
it and then uses the safe work practices, he can market that as just
another service of a great painting contractor. Upscale people love it
because it gives them a warm, cozy.
Good luck. Let us know what the testing shows.
Edwin Pawlowski
"rank beginner" <rawbe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> it just didn't occur to me that it might be one in mine! So
> he goes on about how my beloved contractor can get summoned, fined, and
> even disallowed from working again in the town if he gets
> caught.....and that its important to use one because of health &
> environmental concerns.
> to use one? And if so, would an increase in final cost to the customer
> be justified because of being forced by law to buy the vacuum?
Does not matter what I think, Only thing I do think is that your neighbor
should mind his own business. Sounds like he may be jealous of your new
paint job. Some people are just like that.
Go crack open a beer and admire your new paint job.
Pat
Many, but not all, condo were built after 1978. Anything after then
doesn't need lead control because it is assumed to be lead-free.
Lead paint from residential projects, such as yours, can safely and
legally be disposed of in regular trash. I think the only caveat is
that it is supposed to be double-bagged. It is then for the garbage
company to control their emissions. What you did was correct.
rank beginner
replies.
I don't think we need to test our house (single-family, built in early
60s), because I contacted the previous owner last night after my
neighbor's comment and asked him about past paintings of the house
before we bought. He said that since 1978 (the year lead in paint was
banned under federal law) the house had been painted about 5 times, and
at least once he could recall it was completely sanded down. Which
means there would remain very little lead-based paint left on the
surface of the wood -- if indeed there was any ever at all....And I
also agree that local ordinances can be just ridiculous.....I mean if
you're not going to strictly enforce them, why bother? ...a lot of it
strikes me as politicking, local posturing by city councils pressured
by homeowners hysterical about one thing or another.....What I wish
they'd do something about is the constant pesticide-spraying that
almost all of my neighbors like to do, just for the sake of the lawn.
Oh, but to the upscales, the green lawn is a sacred item of
americana...politically untouchable....well, we have a very young
child, a toddler and we'd like to have more one day, and you better
believe it I am concerned about those trucks coming by and spraying all
those pesticides and herbicides....why can't they pass an ordinance
requiring advance notice to all neighbors when the trucks are going to
come by and spray?? I'd make sure the kids are inside. To me, this is
100x worse than small amounts of butyl acrylate (latex resin) and
colorant particulates getting airborne.
I'm not sure I would not use a contractor just because he didn't use a
vacuum as part of his painting service, especially if the contractor is
otherwise really good. That's the case with this one, he is without
question an excellent painter himself and his crew is great. They are
attentive to our questions and really goes out of his way to inform us
of the progress of the painting. We have been delighted so far with how
things are turning out. They just started the main body of the house
today, after finishing the trim & mouldings yesterday. It's really
starting to look good. I haven't seen hare nor hide of our neighbor so
far today....
Chris
rank beginner
I'll check my town codes to see what exactly the ordinance says
regarding this, but I don't really feel like it now :)
I feel like, here we are starting off the lovely Fall with a new paint
job on our recently-moved-in house, improving our property and the
neighborhood, and then we can't even have fun with it and the joy is
lessened because of what the next-door brought up......Ahhh, suburbia..
Chris
maurice
rank beginner wrote:
> ....What I wish
> they'd do something about is the constant pesticide-spraying that
> almost all of my neighbors like to do, just for the sake of the lawn.
> Oh, but to the upscales, the green lawn is a sacred item of
> americana...politically untouchable....well, we have a very young
> child, a toddler and we'd like to have more one day, and you better
> believe it I am concerned about those trucks coming by and spraying all
> those pesticides and herbicides....why can't they pass an ordinance
> requiring advance notice to all neighbors when the trucks are going to
> come by and spray?? I'd make sure the kids are inside. To me, this is
> 100x worse than small amounts of butyl acrylate (latex resin) and
> colorant particulates getting airborne.
>
Lead is a proven hazard. Laws promoting the responsible removal of
this hazard seem pretty reasonable to me, and I guess the onus must be
on you as the home-owner, either personally or through your contractor,
to ensure that you're not polluting the neighborhood in an effort to
improve your home's appearance. As far as your neighbours spraying
herbicide on their lawn to improve their home's appearance, there's a
great deal of panic over this issue, despite the fact that weed control
is predominantly achieved with 24-D, a synthesized plant hormone in use
for 60 years. There is a list of double-blind studies on this stuff as
long as my arm, and none show any harm to humans under remotely normal
conditions. If I lived in your neighborhood and was out walking with
my 3-year old daughter, I'd be far more concerned about her contact
with your lead particles than the bi-monthly weed treatment of your
other neighbours, especially considering that every lawn treatment
company I know of posts signs for at least 24 hours after spraying to
inform people of the recent treatments.
Good luck with your paint job, hope it turns out well.
rank beginner
Go back and read my last post again. Lead was banned from paint in
1978. You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension. There is
NO lead-based paint present in any way, shape,
or form on my home.
And one more thing, if the pesticides and herbicides are so safe, why
do they put signs on the lawns?? And why is Monsanto, the maker of
Round-Up, constantly on the receiving end of calls by environmental
organizations for suspension of its application in human- and
animal-inhabited areas??
Why is Monsanto and other pesticide & herbicides manufacturers
currently on the watch list for their implication in the destruction of
amphibians? The University of Pittsburgh has produced scientific
studies pointing to the unequivocal destructive role that these
herbicedes play in environmental contamination:
http://www.pitt.edu/~relyea/Roundup.html
In addition, spraying trucks go around with MUCH more frequency than
neighbors' house sanding and painting, so your argument falls apart
there as well.
Please keep your facts straight, your argument tight, and improve your
reading comprehension.
Best Regards,
Chris
rank beginner
lethal" to animal life by herbicides:
http://www.umc.pitt.edu/rr/2005summer/herbicide.html
You really don't want to put yourself in the position of having to
defend the safety of herbicides and pesticides, trust me.
But thanks for wishing me well on our paint job.
Best Regards,
Chris
maurice
thought my reading comprehension was pretty good. You wrote that there
was likely "very little" lead left on your house, according to the
previous home-owner. Now you write that there is "NO lead-based paint
present in any way, shape or form" on your house. I hope you're right.
But since you haven't had it tested, you may want to consider the
consequences to you and your neighbors. Or not. Entirely up to you.
Insofar as your attack on Monsanto et al., the fact that Monsanto is
attacked by environmentalists doesn't make their product toxic to
humans, any more than a city ordinance in your town or a comment on a
newgroup makes your paint lead-laden. The two University of Pittsburgh
studies you cite, while interesting, deal with the effects on amphibean
life in a pond treated with insecticides and herbicides. Clearly, if
you have some weed-eating frogs, and you kill the weeds, the frogs will
go hungry. Which, as I've said, is interesting, but as my daughter is
not a frog, and her menu is unaffected by my lush lawn, I suppose I'm
not that concerned about it. Sad for the frogs, mind you.
As for the weeding trucks and their frequent visits, I don't see how
that's relevant. They can visit daily if their wares are not toxic to
humans, and my health will be unaffected. They post signs as a
courtesy to those who care one way or another. It doesn't seem fair to
now take their courtesy as proof that what they distribute is toxic in
the absence of any evidence that's the case. However, a single
exposure to a known toxic substance doesn't seem as benevolent, and I
hope you've been as courteous with posting signs about this known
danger as the fertilizer companies have been with their
"tested-as-safe" product.
Incidentally, if you'd care to read more about the herbicide we're
discussing, here are some studies for you. (yep, I have google too.)
http://www.24d.org/scientific.htm
By the way, I really did mean good luck with the paint job. I hope it
looks great.
Maurice
Norminn
> Thanks to Norminn, Pat, & everyone who responded for your helpful
> replies.
>
> I don't think we need to test our house (single-family, built in early
> 60s), because I contacted the previous owner last night after my
> neighbor's comment and asked him about past paintings of the house
> before we bought. He said that since 1978 (the year lead in paint was
> banned under federal law) the house had been painted about 5 times, and
> at least once he could recall it was completely sanded down. Which
> means there would remain very little lead-based paint left on the
> surface of the wood -- if indeed there was any ever at all....And I
What you are saying makes my logic itch :o) Built in early 60's,
repainted 5 times .. every 8 years, then, roughly? At least once it was
completely sanded down .. to the bare wood? Seems very doubtful, as
painting every 8 years would have probably kept it in good shape and
there would be little reason to sand down to bare wood. Then, it seems,
it is likely to have three coats of lead paint on it. Leads me to
believe your neighbor has some legitimate concerns, not to mention the
crew that is doing the sanding. But, maybe, he is sanding only into the
newer paint? A test would be quite simple, and a lot simpler than
enforcement action if the neighbor is correct.
As to the pesticide problem, a great deal of it is due to improper use,
in spite of very clear labeling... folks just don't do what they are
supposed to do. Your issue is now the responsibility of the contractor
and former owner?
Nick Hull
> you must have some pretty irresponsible boat owner friends. boat owners I
> know would never dump a battery in the water.
Huge piles of dead batteries have been found around navigation lights
where the Coast Guard dumped them when changing batteries.
--
Free men own guns - www.geocities/CapitolHill/5357/
Norminn
> In article <OJ9Vg.18$Mz...@newsfe04.lga>, "oklaman" <o...@dum.org> wrote:
>
>
>>you must have some pretty irresponsible boat owner friends. boat owners I
>>know would never dump a battery in the water.
>
>
> Huge piles of dead batteries have been found around navigation lights
> where the Coast Guard dumped them when changing batteries.
>
Mebbe it is a good fit with what else is going on in the environment.
By the time the icebergs melt, we will be vacationing in Greenland.
Those of us unfortunate enough to stay in Florida will have grandkids
growing flippers because of the genetic damage from whatever it is we
are screwing up reptiles and amphibians with. But it might be a good
deal - think I'll buy some real estate up there while the price is low :o)
glenn P
others.
The abhorrent idea of dumping a battery (or anything else for that matter)
at sea is most definitely not one even remotely condoned (or even crossing
the mind of) by me, or anyone I could ever mention.
A single plastic bag can kill several fish/mammals before it breaks down.
You might as well toss dynamite overboard....
Is that the kind of friends you have Norminn?????
"oklaman" <o...@dum.org> wrote in message news:OJ9Vg.18$Mz...@newsfe04.lga...
HeyBub
> And one more thing, if the pesticides and herbicides are so safe, why
> do they put signs on the lawns??
Lawyers + emotionally-vulnerable juries = big bucks
> And why is Monsanto, the maker of
> Round-Up, constantly on the receiving end of calls by environmental
> organizations for suspension of its application in human- and
> animal-inhabited areas??
Because environmental organizations are, in the main, in it for the money.
"A mass movement can exist without a god, but it will always fail without a
devil." (Eric Hoffer) Monsanto/Roundup is the devil.
>
> Please keep your facts straight, your argument tight, and improve your
> reading comprehension.
>
Facts don't matter in court. Consider: silicone breast implants are still
outlawed and Dow Corning went into bankruptcy despite the TOTAL ABSENCE of
any peer-reviewed study showing ANY danger.
Did you know that just last week the World Health Organization approved the
use of DDT? After thirty-four years of being banned and the unnecessary
deaths of literally hundreds of millions of people from malaria, somebody
finally decided that, gee, since there has been only ONE fatality attributed
to DDT (the guy fell in a vat), maybe we were too hasty in banning it?
Pat
I tend to agree that it seems unlikely that the house was painted every
8 years on average, esp. if it was taken to bare wood once. I bet the
paint on my house is over 20 years old.
But a few notes. First, if it was every 8 years, you'd wonder why.
Does it have some sort of moisture problem? Second, the previous post
from Norminn said it is likely to have 3 coats of lbp. Gee, there's
not way of knowing for sure. It might have, or it might not. Could be
no lead was ever in the place or it could be multiple coats of lead.
Only testing will tell. As a guess, if it needed 8 coats, not had lead
in it. That stuff made really good paint. Finally, if it has lead on
the walls, that's okay as long as it stays there. It isn't a problem
until you disturb it. It's a good rule to let sleeping lead stay
asleep.
Good luck with it, but you should probably have the house tested.
Pat
BTW, lead is particular important because you have a little kid.
Put a penny in your mouth and it tastes like copper. Put a nickel or a
quarter in your mouth and it tastes different. Metals have taste.
Lead is reputed to be sweet. That's why kids eat it. So be careful.
This isn't a problem that is just in cities. This is anywhere where
lead and kids meet.
DanG
knows the laws. He may have already tested for lead. It is a
very simple "wipe and look" type process available at any good
paint store. If there is lead based paint, there are procedures
to follow. I don't know all the procedures required for painters,
but using a negative air machine is one for asbestos work. They
just did a water tower here a few years ago and had to completely
shroud the thing till it was blasted and sealed.
The cautions, codes, and laws are there to prevent contaminating
other people or properties whether air born or ground
contamination from drainage water.
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
dgri...@7cox.net
"rank beginner" <rawbe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160061443....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
hal...@aol.com
rank beginner wrote:
> Thanks to Norminn, Pat, & everyone who responded for your helpful
> replies.
>
> I don't think we need to test our house (single-family, built in early
> 60s), because I contacted the previous owner last night after my
> neighbor's comment and asked him about past paintings of the house
> before we bought. He said that since 1978 (the year lead in paint was
> banned under federal law) the house had been painted about 5 times, and
> at least once he could recall it was completely sanded down. Which
> means there would remain very little lead-based paint left on the
> surface of the wood -- if indeed there was any ever at all....
First its near impossible to remove by sanding ALL lead based paint, it
not only absorbs in the wood but is in nooks and cranies that cant be
easily reached.
the environmental laws are there to protect EVERYONE and lead is a
major hazard to kids. I have a friend with a mentally impaired
daughter, slow would be a old time description. nice gal special ed.
lead was implicated in her troubles but they will never know for sure.
as far as I am concerned its better to live by the law than put
yourself or thers at risk and I hope anyone who breaks the law gets
heavily fined or goes to jail.
a local contractor was caught not following the rules when painting
bridges and water towers, he put so many at risk and is currently
serving his 15 year well deserved sentence in prison, he also lost his
family to divorce his business and all his money, once he is out of
prison he will be paying 50% of whatever salary he manages to earn till
he dies of old age...
he made extra $ by falsifying the reports.
all you need is some heavy duty fines and all contractors will follow
the rules.
thats better than having adults with a mental abilty of 6 years old
thanks to lead in the environment.
if someone did sand all the paint off your home years ago the lead is
likely still in the soil, at home reasle time this may devalue your
home, or leave you at risk for a large lawsuit from a future owner,
since you are now aware of the risk and dont tell them..........
correct.
Nick Hull
Norminn <nor...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Since Greenland was green when discovered I doubt it will be
vacationland soon.
Norminn
> In article <vRfVg.5474$Y24....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Norminn <nor...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Nick Hull wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <OJ9Vg.18$Mz...@newsfe04.lga>, "oklaman" <o...@dum.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>you must have some pretty irresponsible boat owner friends. boat owners I
>>>>know would never dump a battery in the water.
>>>
>>>
>>>Huge piles of dead batteries have been found around navigation lights
>>>where the Coast Guard dumped them when changing batteries.
>>>
>>
>>Mebbe it is a good fit with what else is going on in the environment.
>>By the time the icebergs melt, we will be vacationing in Greenland.
>>Those of us unfortunate enough to stay in Florida will have grandkids
>>growing flippers because of the genetic damage from whatever it is we
>>are screwing up reptiles and amphibians with. But it might be a good
>>deal - think I'll buy some real estate up there while the price is low :o)
>
>
> Since Greenland was green when discovered I doubt it will be
> vacationland soon.
>
I was thinking more long term :o)
hal...@aol.com
You came here upset by your neighbors comments looking for approval on
your contractor choice and job. you wanted a rose colored glass
everything is fine response.
you know someone may turn in your home which could bring about a costly
clean up. heck yopu may be stuck paying the costs of soil removal
around your home. all trucked to a hazardous waste landfill.
yeah costs for jobs to meet codes can result in higer contractor
fees....
the day will come where when selling a home requires a lead test of
soil near home. your home may fail, thus being a hazard to kids,
cutting the final home price.
just like a old or leaking oil tank, bad gas line, bad roof etc cuts
the house price or makes it impossible to sell.
go ahead and enjoy your rose colored glasses but be aware someday this
may come back to bite you..............
m Ransley
Edwin Pawlowski
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
> You came here upset by your neighbors comments looking for approval on
> your contractor choice and job. you wanted a rose colored glass
> everything is fine response.
>
> you know someone may turn in your home which could bring about a costly
> clean up. heck yopu may be stuck paying the costs of soil removal
> around your home. all trucked to a hazardous waste landfill.
>
> may come back to bite you..............
>
Yeah, he came to get some gratification, but instead, has you running the
Doomsday Machine. Have you seen the dust and analyzed it?
hal...@aol.com
> Yeah, he came to get some gratification, but instead, has you running the
> Doomsday Machine. Have you seen the dust and analyzed it?
just making him aware of the risks, and just for the record I quit
treating my lawn years ago, it has weeds but the birds bunnies and
wildlife can play safely on my lawn.
want to bet this contractor was the cheapest? may even be his brother
in law doing a side job.......
old owner wouldnt admit lead paint and really should of disclosed it at
time of sale.