Basic advice for an oven bake element house fire (GE JBP24B0B4WH)
Donna Ohl
on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
department put it out.
Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl
I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
itself.
The fire department said replace the oven.
Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element.
Whose advice should I follow?
Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/
Donna Ohl
> Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
> Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
I have a whole bunch of questions I hope you can help me answer.
Q1: What caused the whoosh sound when the GE oven fire first started?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845898/
Q2: How does a broken oven heating element cause a fire anyway?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845892/
Q3: Why is the GE oven heating element all blistered in the fire spot?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845900/
Q4: Why didn't the fire go out when I turned off the oven switch?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845890/
Q5: Should I replace the heating element or replace the oven?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845896/
Q6: Where can I find a replacement upper bake heating element?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/
PanHandler
I'll let others get into your questions, but the upper element is the
"broil" element. On some ovens with a "preheat" feature the broil element
will also come on to help bring the oven to the "bake" temperature you have
set more quickly, at which time the broil element will shut off.
Steve Barker DLT
a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm
s
"Donna Ohl" <donn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1ZWGk.59$%11...@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...
Wayne Boatwright
Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the "bake"
setting, not just to preheat.
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
*******************************************
Date: Tuesday, 10(X)/07(VII)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
4wks 6dys 1hrs 44mins
*******************************************
My watch stopped. I think I'm down a
quartz. --George Carlin
PanHandler
"Wayne Boatwright" <waynebo...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B30E2B1F1494wa...@69.16.185.250...
> On Tue 07 Oct 2008 10:10:56p, PanHandler told us...
>
>>
>> I'll let others get into your questions, but the upper element is the
>> "broil" element. On some ovens with a "preheat" feature the broil
>> element will also come on to help bring the oven to the "bake"
>> temperature you have set more quickly, at which time the broil element
>> will shut off.
>
> Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the "bake"
> setting, not just to preheat.
Wasn't aware of that. My 6 month old Frigidaire doesn't.
Donna Ohl
> Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
> a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm
I was hoping I could replace the element!
I'm not sure if it's a bake element or a broil element but it's the top
element as shown in this picture ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl ).
Do you have any idea what caused the fire?
I'm confused because, if an element is just a resistor, opening it would
just cause it to stop heating. But even with the oven switch turned off,
the fire was still going until the fire department closed the oven door and
shut off the electricity to the house.
What caused the fire?
Donna Ohl
>> Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the "bake"
>> setting, not just to preheat.
>
> Wasn't aware of that. My 6 month old Frigidaire doesn't.
I thought it was bake but I can easily be wrong. It's certainly the upper
heating element though, as can be seen by this picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl
Do you know WHERE to buy the upper element for the GE JBP24B0B4WH?
The General Electric http://www.geappliances.com/ web page doesn't even
list my six-year-old oven model
Here is where I looked for GE oven element parts:
http://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/
Do you know where I can find the part number for the GE JBP24B0B4WH oven
heater upper element?
ransley
> The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven went
> on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
> department put it out.
>
>
> I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
> itself.
>
> The fire department said replace the oven.
>
> Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element.
> Whose advice should I follow?
>
> Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
> Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/
What caught fire its all metal. Google to see if those have a record
of catching fire. Replacing the element wont make it safe that is not
the cause, or what burned, you have to take it apart to find the
cause. For most it would not be worth the trouble. With a fire there
is likely hidden wiring that is fried.
John Grabowski
I would contact GE regarding this. There may be a history of problems with
this oven or a recall. Look in your yellow pages or online for appliance
parts. The oven is not that old so I would think that parts are still
available. Have you contacted your homeowners insurance company? The oven
may be covered.
Without taking the oven apart it is difficult to assess what other parts may
have been damaged from the fire. It is possible that the wiring for the
stove top burners got damaged. I vote for a new stove and a different model
as well.
J. Clarke
If the oven caused a fire severe enough to justify calling the fire
department then replace the oven, it's not safe. And have someone who
knows what he's doing do the replacement to make sure that the
replacement is installed properly and doesn't start another fire.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
tra...@optonline.net
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:13:06 -0500, Steve Barker DLT wrote:
> > Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
> > a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm
>
> I was hoping I could replace the element!
The element is replaceable and available online. Google appliance
parts. However, whether that's the only problem and the only thing
that needs to be repaired depends on what else may have been damaged
as a result of what happened.
>
> I'm not sure if it's a bake element or a broil element but it's the top
> element as shown in this picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl).
It's the upper element, which is commonly referred to as the broil
element. However, some ovens may use it to pre-heat or cycle it
during bake, etc. too.
>
> Do you have any idea what caused the fire?
What exactly was burning in the fire? If the element failed, I could
see it getting very hot, arcing, maybe some small flames around the
element itself. But beyond that, for there to be any substantial
fire, you need a fuel source.
>
> I'm confused because, if an element is just a resistor, opening it would
> just cause it to stop heating. But even with the oven switch turned off,
> the fire was still going until the fire department closed the oven door and
> shut off the electricity to the house.
It shouldn't have taken the fire dept to figure out to close the oven
door and cut off the electricity. Were you planning on toasting
marshmallows? And again, the question here is exactly what do you
mean by fire and what was burning?
>
> What caused the fire?
My guess would be a failed heating element.
Wayne Boatwright
It depends on brand and model. I had a Whirlpool a few years ago that did
this. I thought it was a problem with the range, until I read further into
the owner's manual. :-)
--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
*******************************************
Date: Wednesday, 10(X)/08(VIII)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
4wks 5dys 19hrs 1mins
*******************************************
I don't want constructive criticism.
It's all I can do to handle
jack
> I'm confused because, if an element is just a resistor, opening it would
> just cause it to stop heating. But even with the oven switch turned off,
> the fire was still going until the fire department closed the oven door
> and
> shut off the electricity to the house.
That is a darn good question. Turning the switch to off should have killed
the power just as effectively as shutting off power to the house. It did
for me when my broiler element started arcing a few months ago.
You probably only thought you had the switch off... But if you are certain
you did, then you have a bigger problem than a failed element, and it might
be prudent to replace it.
Just in general, it would be a good idea to have a fire extinquisher in the
house. We have 4. Never used them.
Donna Ohl
> The element is replaceable and available online. Google appliance
> parts.
I couldn't find the oven upper element part number at the GE site (
http://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/ ).
Maybe they don't make them anymore because I couldn't even find the model
of the oven (JBP24B0B4WH) at that GE applicance parts web site.
Do you think they don't make parts for this GE jbp24bob4wh oven anymore?
Donna Ohl
> see it getting very hot, arcing, maybe some small flames around the
> element itself. But beyond that, for there to be any substantial
> fire, you need a fuel source.
It was all just metal.
As you can see from the pictures, the element is blistered just in one six
inch spot ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845900/ and you can
see the GE oven heating element is broken in another spot not far away (
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/ )
How could the oven element be "arcing" if it was an open circuit?
Donna Ohl
> Turning the switch to off should have killed
> the power just as effectively as shutting off power to the house.
Hi Jack,
That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
has a half-inch gap in it.
I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?
And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.
Does anyone know the answer to these questions?
Donna
Tony Hwang
Hi,
Not open yet but cracked. It could arc. Element is easily replaceable
and even HD or Lowe will have universal type one. Just make sure get one
with same kind of connector.
Donna Ohl
> house. We have 4. Never used them.
Hi Jack,
I used up TWO of the household ABC fire extinguishers to no avail before
calling the fire department. This is a picture of the exact fire
extinguisher used (this picture is from a previous repair)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2279911402/in/set-72157603933515835/
I've concluded ABC fire extinguishers are useless on oven fires!
This is what the oven looked like afterward
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845896/
Tony Hwang
What is definition of arcing? Current jumping across a gap. When element
is cracked(in the process of breaking up) it can arc. Just take the bad
element out and go to HD or Lowe or appliance parts store and get a
matching replacement. No brainer replacing burned out element. Just make
sure connection is good and tight.
Donna Ohl
> Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
> a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm
Hi Steve,
I can't find the part number for the GE jbp24b0b4wh oven upper heating
element replacement.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845890/
Do you know of a good web site (GE doesn't have them even at their parts
web site http://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/
Donna
Tony Hwang
Maybe inside oven was drity(greasy)? When is the last time you cleaned
it putting it to self clean mode? Something burning and you left the
oven door open and did not cut the power off? And fireman had to do it?
No fire extinguisher in the kitchen? I have one in the kitchen and
another one in the garage.
Donna Ohl
> What caught fire its all metal. Google to see if those have a record
> of catching fire. Replacing the element wont make it safe that is not
> the cause, or what burned, you have to take it apart to find the
> cause. For most it would not be worth the trouble. With a fire there
> is likely hidden wiring that is fried.
Hi Ransley,
What irks me is I don't understand how this COULD have happened!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl
I mean, it should be pretty simple, right? It's just a big resistor with
220v on one end pushing electrons through it.
Given it's such a simple circuit, I just can't comprehend how this fire can
happen. For example, there is a half-inch gap in the element as shown here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/
My question, in general, is ...
Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
nothing flammable?
How can all this possibly happen to a simple 220v resistor circuit?
It doesn't make any sense. That's why I'm asking here for answers!
Does anyone know the theoretical answer to this question?
Donna
Tony Hwang
If you understand how welding rod works. Heating element by nautre some
times has weakest spot where usually failure occurs like you just
experienced. Weak spot having uneven resistance it can over heat and
start melting the element. It thins the spot and over time it will start
breaking up causing arcing on and off. Finally it will go open. Again if
it was grease fire ignited by the hot element... Grease does not need
electric power to burn. It'll just burn off.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:13:06 -0500, Steve Barker DLT wrote:
> > Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
> > a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I can't find the part number for the GE jbp24b0b4wh oven upper heating
>
> Do you know of a good web site (GE doesn't have them even at their parts
> web sitehttp://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/
>
> Donna
Just google for appliance parts. There are plenty of them online and
they should have the element, as it's a common part. However, as
others have cautioned, based on everything you've said I would NOT
just replace the element, without checking all the wiring, switches,
etc in the oven to make sure it's safe.
jack
> I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
> why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
> half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?
>
Mine was arcing to the oven; the oven is grounded, so you have a circuit.
Mine failed at the support that holds it up, so it just went to the support.
You are right; it can't arc over a half inch gap.
You don't get electrocuted (mainly because you don't touch it when it is on)
because the oven wiring is a much better ground than you, so essentially all
the current goes down the wiring and none down you.
> And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
> because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.
>
Why would it? The fuse will only blow if it the current exceeds the rating,
and there is no reason it should have. An arc fault breaker would have
popped, but you don't put those on your stove.
> Does anyone know the answer to these questions?
These questions are easy; the one I can't answer is why it didn't stop when
you turned it off.
The fire extinquisher was ineffective because nothing was going to stop it
until you cut the power.
jack
"Tony Hwang" <drag...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:SZ3Hk.4154$jf4....@newsfe10.iad...
It may not be THAT easy. My wires only pulled out about and inch and
bolting the new element on was very difficult.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:05:16 -0400, jack wrote:
> > Turning the switch to off should have killed
> > the power just as effectively as shutting off power to the house.
>
> Hi Jack,
> That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
> burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
> has a half-inch gap in it.
Which could have occured at the end and then the current did stop
flowing.
>
> I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
> why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
> half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?
Presumably, you don't touch it when it's on and hot to begin with.
But the actual resistive part is inside the element, so you can't
touch it.
>
> And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
> because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.
Probably because the current flow never exceed 40, 50 amps or whatever
the breaker is rated at. 10 or 12KW in a small area is a lot of
energy, but it doesn't exceed the breaker.
Donna Ohl
>> What caused the fire?
> Maybe inside oven was drity(greasy)? When is the last time you cleaned
> it putting it to self clean mode? Something burning and you left the
> oven door open and did not cut the power off? And fireman had to do it?
> No fire extinguisher in the kitchen? I have one in the kitchen and
> another one in the garage.
Hi Tony,
There was nothing that could burn that was inside the oven. It was clean
(it looks dirty in this picture because of all the useless ABC fire
extinguisher powder).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845890/
Looking closely at the oven element itself, it's blistered in the spot that
was "burning" (perhaps it was arcing as people said but I don't understand
how an open circuit can arc and even if it did why didn't it blow the 220v
fuse?).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845892/
I had two fire extinguishers in the kitchen (notice the burned teapot on
the top of the stove ... I'm rather forgetful and burn a lot of things
down). The ABC fire extinguisher was useless on this electrical fire.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2279911402/in/set-72157603933515835/
I would NOT recommend an ABC fire extinguisher for an electrical fire for
anyone ever. It didn't do a thing. Neither did turning off the oven switch.
The only thing that stopped it was when the firemen turned off the power t
the house.
What I'm trying to find is someone who UNDERSTANDS HOW this could have
possibly happened? It just doesn't make sense that an open circuit (see the
break here http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/) could
possibly arc even after the switch is turned off?
And, why didn't the fuse blow (it's a three pronged grandfather plug
according to the firemen.)
Norminn
The "wh" at the end probably refers to color (white?). I did a search
on just "jbp24" and got lots of
hits for "Quick Clean" model........did you try a google search on the
part number?
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
You;ve figured it out. It wasn't a fire, it was the "Quick Clean"
cycle. Cleaned it out real nice with no scrubbing!
crum...@gmail.com
> Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
> Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/ )
Listen ditszy,
Save yourself some money and replace the entire stove. You're worrying
your pretty little head over a very common occurrance. Most broil oven
elements only last three to five years so you're lucky you got as much
as you did out of the one you have. When you turned off the heat, in
your blonde moment (probably all the time) you turned it back on or
hit the wrong dial because the arcing would have stopped then and
there.
And, the fire extinguisher didn't put out the arcing because it was
still arcing and if was the top element (broil you ditz, not bake).
Here you are spraying powder on an upside down fire. Think about it.
The powder smothers the fire only if it lands on the fire. You would
have to turn the entire oven upside down for the fire extinguisher to
work, you idiot.
As for the part numbers, your oven is a GE Spectra white. Take the WH
off the part number BTW, it stands for white. That oven has to be at
least five to ten years old so fat chance you'll ever find the part at
GE for that. If you do find it, expect to pay upwards of $70 for it
(PN WB44T10009 for the top broil and PN WB44T100010 for the bottom
bake element).
What happened is you were dumb enough to have a splat of grease on the
element, which over time weakened the steel casing which over time
melted which over time exposed the inner resistive wire which over
time moved enough to get close to the ungrounded case of the oven
which arced frightfully (for you) which then cracked when you splashed
water or fire extinguisher on it which opened the circuit which killed
the arcing.
I have no idea what the "whoosh" sound was ..... probably the air
leaving your head as you concentrated on ruining your oven.
You can replace the element for a few hundred bucks with a service
call, or, if you do it yourself, you will almost certainly drop the
wires in the back as you unscrew them off the element so that you'll
have to pay a technician a few hundred bucks to take the oven apart to
get to the wires you dropped.
Anyway, if you like, call GE and they'll confirm everything I said (I
used to work for GE by the way).
GE tech support 800-626-2005
GE customer service 800-432-2737
GE oven appliances 800-386-1215
GE appliance parts 800-626-2002
GE troubleshooting 800-626-2000
GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 upper broil element P/N: WB44T10009
GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 lower bake element P/N: WB44T10010
Respectfully yours
NoSpa...@lousyisp.gov
>On Oct 7, 9:47 pm, Donna Ohl <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
>> Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/ )
>As for the part numbers, your oven is a GE Spectra white. Take the WH
>off the part number BTW, it stands for white. That oven has to be at
>least five to ten years old so fat chance you'll ever find the part at
>GE for that. If you do find it, expect to pay upwards of $70 for it
>(PN WB44T10009 for the top broil and PN WB44T100010 for the bottom
>bake element).
Upper element from:
http://www.repairclinic.com/SmartSearch/SSPartDetail.aspx?PartID=770548&PPStack=1
$53.70
Lower element:
http://www.repairclinic.com/SmartSearch/SSPartDetail.aspx?PartID=770549&PPStack=1
$49.50
Both in stock for immediate delivery.
>Anyway, if you like, call GE and they'll confirm everything I said (I
>used to work for GE by the way).
>GE tech support 800-626-2005
>GE customer service 800-432-2737
>GE oven appliances 800-386-1215
>GE appliance parts 800-626-2002
>GE troubleshooting 800-626-2000
>GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 upper broil element P/N: WB44T10009
>GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 lower bake element P/N: WB44T10010
Call the Repair Clinic guy at 800-269-2609 instead. He's a lot more
friendly.
Red Green
news:e713659e-8e27-4771...@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> On Oct 7, 9:47 pm, Donna Ohl <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
>> Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't
>> food)?http://
> www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/ )
Once you posted this:
> Listen ditszy,
the worth of anything that followed was zip.
JohnR66
If your in the US, your house is most likely fed 240 volts from a
transformer that is center tapped (neutral) and there is 120 volts from the
neutral to each hot and 240 volts from hot to hot. The neutral is tied to
ground in the breaker box. When the element fails, sometimes it burns
through the insulation to the outer casing which is grounded. Apparantly the
oven contol just removes one hot leg from the circuit while the other is
still connected. normally this opens the circuit and the oven is off, but if
there is a short to ground, like with the bad element, it can continue to
arc since one leg is still connected to hot and there is a short to ground.
I've seen this before when the oven control is set to off and it keeps
arcing when the element burned out.
Edwin Pawlowski
>
> I've concluded ABC fire extinguishers are useless on oven fires!
>
> This is what the oven looked like afterward
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845896/
Depends on what is burning. In many cases, closing the door is enough to let
it burn out safely. Or the ABC can put our your roasted chicken.
Edwin Pawlowski
"J. Clarke" <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> If the oven caused a fire severe enough to justify calling the fire
> department then replace the oven, it's not safe. And have someone who
> knows what he's doing do the replacement to make sure that the
> replacement is installed properly and doesn't start another fire.
>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
What would make it unsafe and un-repairable? Electric ranges are really
rather simple devices with few parts in the circuit.
Tony Hwang
By Mr. Murphy's law. Respect him. Arcing can occur thru carbon trace.
How old is the thing anyway? I have all GE appliance in the house.
Only trouble I had was a thermostat going bad in ~10 years time.
Wonder you had a power surge??? You have to know what the element is
made of. There maybe some mineral component which can spark like fire
works.
Donna Ohl
> What would make it unsafe and un-repairable? Electric ranges are really
> rather simple devices with few parts in the circuit.
Hi Edwin,
They might be simple but I just realized there are THREE (not two) ends to
the GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 upper broil heating element WB44T10009.
See this picture please
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926170616/
QUESTION: What is the purpose of that THIRD end of the heating element?
Do the two 120 volt hot wires go to the two ends while the neutral goes to
that third end of the broiling element loop???
Donna
Chris Hill
wrote:
>
>What irks me is I don't understand how this COULD have happened!
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl
>
>I mean, it should be pretty simple, right? It's just a big resistor with
>220v on one end pushing electrons through it.
>
>Given it's such a simple circuit, I just can't comprehend how this fire can
>happen. For example, there is a half-inch gap in the element as shown here:
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/
>
>My question, in general, is ...
>
>Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
>when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
>was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
>nothing flammable?
The short didn't draw enough current to throw the breaker; the breaker
has to be able to handle the oven with all the burners on. Your
switch didn't turn off because there was so much current being drawn
that the contacts stuck (or maybe welded) together. I'd get the oven
checked before I turned the power to it back on.
Tony Hwang
Why don't you just read the wiring diagram stuck on the back of oven?
dpb
...
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of that THIRD end of the heating element?
It's the self-cleaning oven temp sensor.
> Do the two 120 volt hot wires go to the two ends while the neutral goes to
> that third end of the broiling element loop???
Just put new one in the way the old one comes out. That sensor has
nothing to do w/ the broil element per se, and altho it's different than
in range here so don't know for absolute certain, it may actually
separate from the broil element when removed and only be mounted via the
bracket...
Either way, the replacement element will just reconnect where the old
one comes off.
--
dpb
> Donna Ohl wrote:
> ...
>
>> QUESTION: What is the purpose of that THIRD end of the heating element?
>
> It's the self-cleaning oven temp sensor.
>
> ... it may actually separate from the broil element when removed and
only be mounted via the bracket...>
Looking at the photograph one more time, that's clearly so.
--
Donna Ohl
>> Do the two 120 volt hot wires go to the two ends while the neutral goes to
>> that third end of the broiling element loop???
> Why don't you just read the wiring diagram stuck on the back of oven?
Hi Tony,
There is no wiring diagram on the back of the oven:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279121/
But, I didn't know that until I just now asked a neighbor to help me move
the destroyed oven away from the wall. He was kind enough to move it
outside before having to go to work.
I was hoping there was that wiring diagram on the back of the oven but all
there was was this picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279115/
Notice the 3 wires on the back of the oven do not correspond at all to the
4 wires in the inside of the oven!!!!!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279131/
Donna
Donna Ohl
Hi dpb,
I just uploaded a photo for you showing you are correct. This little tiny
two inch heater element is totally separate from the rest of the oven.
It appears to be working off of 120 volts because two small white wires
attach to it while the two big (red & black) 220v wires attach to the upper
GE oven heating element.
Notice the 220v neutral wire is nowhere to be found!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279115/
It seems that every time I take something apart to figure out how it works,
I end up with more questions!
Sorry but I have to ask WHERE did the neutral for the 3-pronged 220volt
circuit get hooked up?
Donna Ohl
>>Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
>>when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
>>was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
>>nothing flammable?
>
> The short didn't draw enough current to throw the breaker;
Hi Chris,
Thank you for explaining that because it makes sense and all I'm trying to
do is make sense of this simple GE Spectra oven fire.
I tried to clean up the ABC fire extinguisher powder as shown here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279137/
But it was such a mess that I asked a neighbor to help me move the oven
outside where I doused it for 20 minutes with a garden hose as shown here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279133/
I'm learning all the time because, only afterward, his wife warned me I
shouldn't have soaked the oven because, she said, the water will remove the
insulation on the 220volt wires.
Should I take any extra precautions now that the oven was basically under
water other than letting it dry out in the sun?
Donna Ohl
Is that third copper tube a "sensor" or a short "heater element" for the
self-cleaning GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 oven?
Donna Ohl
>>> QUESTION: What is the purpose of that THIRD end of the heating element?
>> It's the self-cleaning oven temp sensor.
Ah, it's a SENSOR ... not a self-cleaning heating element. That makes sense
because it seems to be made of copper or brass and not aluminum like the
oven heating element was made up of.
See this picture of the broken fragile aluminum oven heating element!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2927192500/
Everything I touch brings up MORE questions!
People said there was a "jacket" around the "heating element" but this
aluminum jacket appears to have NOTHING inside of it (contrary to what
people said)!
hal...@aol.com
> The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven went
> on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
> department put it out.
>
>
> I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
> itself.
>
> The fire department said replace the oven.
>
> Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element.
> Whose advice should I follow?
>
> Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/
if you dont replace the unit that caught on fire, when iot happens
again insurance may not cover it.
replace it..
dpb
...
> I just uploaded a photo for you showing you are correct. This little tiny
> two inch heater element is totally separate from the rest of the oven.
It's not a heater, it's the control sensor for the self-cleaning cycle
as I indicated.
> It appears to be working off of 120 volts ...
Those are control logic wires -- the sensor acts just like a switch.
It isn't powered, it simply controls power.
> Notice the 220v neutral wire is nowhere to be found!
...
Of course not, 240V loads are connected across one leg to the other;
otherwise there wouldn't be 240V, only 120V from one or the other hot
leg to the neutral.
The neutral is connected to the wiring chassis at the location where the
pigtail is connected; it's used for the various other portions of the
oven that do operate off 120V like the lights, clock, etc., etc., ...
--
dpb
...
> if you dont replace the unit that caught on fire, when iot happens
> again insurance may not cover it.
Bullpuckey...
If all that happened is the broil element failed (they all will
eventually), there's no need for anything other than replacing it.
It's about a 15-minute job if you've never done one before.
--
mkir...@rochester.rr.com
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:05:16 -0400, jack wrote:
> That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
> burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
> has a half-inch gap in it.
> I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
> why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
> half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?
Um, an arc is electricity jumping a GAP... and it doesn't electrocute
you because you are not putting yourself in the circuit by simply
touching the element. If you grabbed both sides of the gap, THEN you'd
get electrocuted.
> And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
> because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.
Because it wasn't drawing enough current to blow the fuse.
The plug has nothing to do with anything.
Do you really need to spaz out like this every time you have a
problem? "What is it? WHAT WHAT WHAT!?!?! Can I fix it? CAN I? CAN I?
CAN I?" Jeez. Calm down.
Replace the damn oven, too. If just turning off the oven didn't stop
it from burning, there is something else wrong. Fix the element, and
you're going to end up with the fire department in your house again,
and they'll probably arrest you this time for arson.
dpb
...
> I used up TWO of the household ABC fire extinguishers to no avail before
> calling the fire department. ...
Since it wasn't a fire but an electrical arc, that's not surprising.
I like others am pretty much convinced that in the panic of the moment
you didn't turn off the oven so the arc just continued.
To amplify on the other questions, an arc is the passage of current
across an air gap by definition--until there's a gap, there's no arc.
It happens when the first break occurs the distance between the two ends
is so close air the insulating effect isn't sufficient to break the
connection and some air is ionized. Once that temperature is achieved,
the arc is self-sustaining as more air is ionized and those charged ions
are what carry the current across the gap. The gap can (and did)
continue to grow while some of the metal in the elements is melted.
In essence, one has made an AC-powered welder or arc lantern.
In general, remember that fire extinguishers are totally ineffective on
electrical fires as they are fueled by the electrical source not a
combustion source. So, don't try that again.
Also, while easy to say, don't panic and be sure it's actually the oven
control you're dealing with not the heat setting or something else and
the switch is actually off. Second, just go to the breaker panel and
throw the breaker for the range. You should know precisely where it is
and which one is the range; if not, that's your next exercise to go find
it and make sure it's well marked.
As for the replacement element, I'm sure there are elements available; I
have a nearly 30-yr old GE and elements are still available for it.
I've used these folks w/ satisfaction...
http://www.pcappliancerepair.com
Looking, I think you've a typo in the model number is a large part of
your problem -- I'm guessing it's actually JBP24BB4WH and the broil
element would be
http://www.pcappliancerepair.com/cgi-bin/detail.cgi?item=WB44T10009&brand=GEH
although you'll want to check for sure on the model, dimensions, etc.
This one does show the mid-mount clean cycle sensor at least.
Of course, you could simply go down to your local appliance dealer and
pick up one, too...
--
PanHandler
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:gclmh1$gh7$1...@aioe.org...
The best reply in this thread!
I'll add: Take the old element (and pieces of same) to compare to
replacement unit.
AND: Identify and label ALL breakers in the box!
I've often found it easier to remove the metal access panel on the back of
the appliance to disconnect/reconnect the oven elements, since there's often
not enough slack in the wires.
dpb
...
> People said there was a "jacket" around the "heating element" but this
> aluminum jacket appears to have NOTHING inside of it (contrary to what
> people said)!
You just can't see it in the damaged state. Clean up and polish and end
back to where it doesn't have the damage and inspect that end w/ a
magnifying glass and you _might_ find it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heating_element
talks about about resistance heaters in general -- the oven elements are
basically calrods -- the actual resistance element is quite small and as
this article notes, probably Nichrome. I've not tried to dissect one or
polish an end as mentioned above so I don't know just what the size of
the wire is but it'll be pretty fine. The rest of the element is
essentially there for support for the heater itself.
--
dpb
...
> The best reply in this thread!
Thanks, seemed like _some_ common sense was called for... :)
> I'll add: Take the old element (and pieces of same) to compare to
> replacement unit.
> AND: Identify and label ALL breakers in the box!
good advice as well...
> I've often found it easier to remove the metal access panel on the back of
> the appliance to disconnect/reconnect the oven elements, since there's often
> not enough slack in the wires.
W/ GE, I've never had a problem w/ there not being plenty of slack in
the front and at least w/ the current oven there's no actual access to
the element from the rear w/o moving other stuff as well (it is one w/
the combination microwave in the oven as well, though).
--
PanHandler
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:gcm5q3$h9n$1...@aioe.org...
The (usually white) insulator surrounding the resistance element may also be
visible on close inspection.
dpb
...
> The (usually white) insulator surrounding the resistance element may also be
> visible on close inspection.
And, I should have noted what Donna thought was "nothing" inside is
actually that the element is embedded in the insulator wrapped around
the element which is likely structural tubing w/ a hollow insulator
iinstead of being a straight wire in a solid rod. IOW, what she thought
was a flaw is the way the element is manufactured. This, of course,
provides much better heat transfer and faster response owing to less
thermal inertia contained in the element (as opposed to the bulky "eyes"
that are more thermally massive by design).
--
Smitty Two
> hal...@aol.com wrote:
> ...
>
> It's about a 15-minute job if you've never done one before.
>
> --
Not for Donna, the attention whore. She'll need to post two hundred
pictures, and ask seventy-five questions. That's just for the element
replacement itself, not counting the twenty ancillary worries that she
chews on all night.
Then she'll meticulously "document" the whole procedure to "help the
next person" whose oven catches on fire. Meanwhile she'll have consumed
fifty thousand dollars worth of her own time and that of a bunch of
misguided good samaritans on usenet. But by golly, she'll fix the oven,
thereby saving a couple of hundred.
Donna Ohl
> the element is embedded in the insulator wrapped around
> the element which is likely structural tubing w/ a hollow insulator
> iinstead of being a straight wire in a solid rod.
Hi dpb,
That is VERY interesting! I am going to take the element apart once the
replacement part arrives and the comparison checks out.
As always, I'll try to document everything thoroughly because I was trained
to give as much as I get back in return.
At this point, the oven is dried out (mostly) and just waiting for the new
element to arrive from UPS. The only problem left is that the door glass
has ABC powder INSIDE of it ...... I have to figure out how that got in
there in order to get rid of it.
Do you thing the excess nitrogen gas given off when that door glass heats
up the first time will cause any problem?
Thanks,
Donna
Donna Ohl
> She'll need to post two hundred
> pictures, and ask seventy-five questions.
Hi Smitty Two,
I'm sorry if I offended you by posting about a dozen annotated pictures so
that people could help me. And, I'm sorry that asking a handful of
questions about an oven repair offends you in this home-repair newsgroup.
I'm not sure why you bothered to respond, since you offered no help, but,
you deserve the courtesy of a response and I just want to let you know I
read what you posted about me and you are entitled to your opinion - and I
appreciate your taking the time to state it publically.
Thank you,
Donna
Donna Ohl
>> Listen ditszy,
>
> the worth of anything that followed was zip.
Hi Red Green,
He's entitled to his opinion. Everyone is. At least he also provided
additional help in his post. The guys who just complain and don't provide
ANY discernable value are the ones who are the hardest to respond to.
I mean, there should be value in every post ..... but it's hard to find
that in some people's responses.
Anyway, the good news is the GE Spectra oven is clean after the garden
hosing, it's mostly dried out, and one of the last problems I'm researching
is what happens when ABC powder stuck inside the oven glass heats up
emitting copius nitrogen gasses.
Thanks,
Donna
Donna Ohl
> Call the Repair Clinic guy at 800-269-2609 instead.
> He's a lot more friendly.
Hi NoSpam,
Actually, I called the numbers that Crumb Bum gave us and GE, after about a
half hour of bouncing around, wrote up a work ticket for me and kindly
shipped the element at an 80% discount and they even dropped the shipping.
The only thing I had to pay full on was the tax (which for California is
over 8%).
The new genuine GE element should arrive soon from UPS at a total cost of
about $38 off my credit card.
So, even though Crumb Bum must have been under the weather that day, he
helped me get the parts for a great price (I think).
BTW, the GE parts representative kept touting "genuine GE" but I wonder if
all the parts are the same. I'll bet they are.
Anyone know which brand of oven parts is any better or worse than the
others?
Donna
Donna Ohl
> The neutral is connected to the wiring chassis at the location where the
> pigtail is connected; it's used for the various other portions of the
> oven that do operate off 120V like the lights, clock, etc., etc., ...
Hi dpb,
Oh my! Are you saying the neutral is connected to the oven chassis?!
If so, then the neutral is not grounded at the electrical box but at some
point perhaps hundreds of yards away from the house. That means, under
off-balance conditions, the neutral can have a voltage pressure to ground,
which means the oven chassis can, essentially, be electrically hot under
"normal" conditions.
Can that possibly be right that the chassis is connected to the neutral
which carries current?
Donna
dpb
> On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:40:15 -0500, dpb wrote:
>> The neutral is connected to the wiring chassis at the location where the
>> pigtail is connected; it's used for the various other portions of the
>> oven that do operate off 120V like the lights, clock, etc., etc., ...
>
> Hi dpb,
>
> Oh my! Are you saying the neutral is connected to the oven chassis?!
Jeez, chill, lady. Read what I wrote again.
>> The neutral is connected to the _wiring_ chassis ...
--
Smitty Two
Donna Ohl <donn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
How very pleasant of you. Think water heater, Donna, or shower faucet.
You have way too much time on your hands, absolutely no mechanical skill
background, an uncanny ability to make mountains out of molehills, and a
perverted compulsion to believe that everyone else is as fascinated with
your little problems as you are.
Besides that, you extend the scope of your threads way beyond anything
that is reasonable or customary in a forum like this, as though usenet
was the *only* resource for any kind of information at all in the entire
world. And you suck a bunch of idiots in there with you with your
sickening good cheer.
"A few" questions you asked? Christ, you don't even know that broiling
means cooking from the top. What sixth-grader can't tell a bake element
from a broil element? You know nothing about electricity or electric
heating elements or the nature of fire, yet you pose your musings as
though those things were great philosophical riddles. Do a little of
your own homework, for Christ's sake.
A normal netizen would have asked whether to buy a new oven or fix it,
where to get the part, and maybe one follow-up if he had trouble with
seized fasteners. But you have to create twenty sub-plots for
everything.
This oven is issue is *far* from over. You'll have problems getting the
old element out, you'll have problems getting the new element in, and
then you're going to start running into all the issues that either
caused the fire or are the result of it. I predict at least 150 more
posts in this thread.
Finally, you'll put your Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval on the whole
mess by claiming altruism, just doing it to help your fellow man. "Oh,
thank god I found Donna's oven repair guide in the usenet archives. I
wonder why no one thought to write a guide to fixing ovens before."
Sheesh.
Dave Martindale
>Hi Jack,
>That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
>burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
>has a half-inch gap in it.
>I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
>why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
>half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?
The element is normally fed from 240 V. The heat is generated in an
inner resistance component which is completely insulated (electrically)
from the element's outer metal jacket, which is grounded by touching
other metal parts of the oven (and possibly by an explicit ground wire).
In normal operation, the jacket of the element is always grounded, so
there's no voltage on it. *But* if the element breaks or the insulation
between the core and jacket fails, you can get current flow between the
centre core and the jacket - there is 120 V from *each* side of a broken
core and the jacket. You could get an arc from the core to the jacket
even with a gap in the element - the 240 V path through the element is
broken, but there's still 120V at high current available.
The switch *should* disconnect power from both sides of the element and
stop any arc when set to off. But if one side of the switch is shorted
closed, it would still work normally while the element is intact (the
other side would still switch the element on and off). So you may have
a problem in the switch.
>And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
>because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.
An arc is not a dead short, and the current is limited both by the
voltage drop across the arc and any remaining element resistance still
in series. So there may not have been enough current to blow a fuse.
Fuses protect wiring from overloads - they aren't designed to prevent
fires.
As for whether you should replace the oven: The powder from an ABC fire
extinguisher is corrosive, so you need to clean it up very thoroughly.
As long as it was confined to the interior of the oven, it may have been
possible to clean it up by sweeping and wiping. But the oven is
definitely *not* designed to have a garden hose sprayed into it! Unless
the interior was already really clean, spraying water into the oven
probably carried the corrosive powder into places you can no longer
reach to clean.
Dave
Dave Martindale
>Looking closely at the oven element itself, it's blistered in the spot that
>was "burning" (perhaps it was arcing as people said but I don't understand
>how an open circuit can arc and even if it did why didn't it blow the 220v
>fuse?).
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845892/
See my other reply. An arc by definition occurs across a gap which
would be an open circuit if the arc was not there. And even when there
is a gap in the element, an energized element has 120 V between the
resistor core and the jacket (in North America).
>I would NOT recommend an ABC fire extinguisher for an electrical fire for
>anyone ever. It didn't do a thing. Neither did turning off the oven switch.
>The only thing that stopped it was when the firemen turned off the power t
>the house.
You do need to interrupt the current to the electrical fire first. If
turning the oven switch to off did not do this, turning off the oven
breaker in the house electrical panel would have.
>What I'm trying to find is someone who UNDERSTANDS HOW this could have
>possibly happened? It just doesn't make sense that an open circuit (see the
>break here http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/) could
>possibly arc even after the switch is turned off?
Sure it does. A switch, particularly if it's actually a thermostat,
needs to open only one side of the 240 V line to do its job in normal
operation. To stop an arc to ground, you need to open both sides of the
supply to the element. There should have been some switch that does
that, but maybe you didn't use it, or maybe it's defective. (Our oven
has a separate Off/Bake/Broil/Clean mode switch, which is not part of
the oven thermostat).
>And, why didn't the fuse blow (it's a three pronged grandfather plug
>according to the firemen.)
Because the wiring wasn't overloaded to the point of endangering the
wiring. You can have a pretty dramatic arc without drawing enough
current to blow a fuse. Why do you expect the fuse to blow?
Dave
Dave Martindale
>I mean, it should be pretty simple, right? It's just a big resistor with
>220v on one end pushing electrons through it.
No, it's not. It is a big resistor surrounded by a metal jacket. The
resistor is supposed to be insulated from the jacket by a
high-temperature mineral insulation. In operation, the resistor is
connected to 240 VAC, while the jacket is connected to ground. In North
America, ground is also connected to the supply transformer centre tap,
so there is *also* 120 V from the ends of the element to the element's
metal jacket.
>Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
>when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
>was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
>nothing flammable?
You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about things you think you
understand. If the element is physically open with a large gap, the
normal current path through the resistor is no longer available. But
both sides of the remaining element are still "hot" with respect to
ground, and you can get an arc from element interior to its jacket.
Electrical arcs do not require anything flammable to "burn"; the
electricity provides the energy. Arcs have resistance and limit the
current, so there may not be enough current to blow a fuse (plus there's
probably part of the element still in the circuit). Finally, the switch
should have opened both sides of the 240 V circuit, but maybe it did
not.
>How can all this possibly happen to a simple 220v resistor circuit?
>It doesn't make any sense. That's why I'm asking here for answers!
It makes perfect sense when you consider the actual situation with the
grounded jacket around the element.
Dave
Dave Martindale
>Oh my! Are you saying the neutral is connected to the oven chassis?!
On a modern oven with a 4-wire cord set, neutral and ground are
separate. The oven frame is connected to ground, while neutral is
connected only to the 120 V loads inside the oven (clock, lights, 120 V
outlet if any).
Older ovens with a 3-wire connection use neutral as ground. This does
pose some shock risk if the neutral ever becomes disconnected.
>If so, then the neutral is not grounded at the electrical box but at some
>point perhaps hundreds of yards away from the house. That means, under
>off-balance conditions, the neutral can have a voltage pressure to ground,
>which means the oven chassis can, essentially, be electrically hot under
>"normal" conditions.
No, neutral and ground ought to be connected to each other (and to a
ground rod) at your house electrical panel, not hundreds of yards away.
>Can that possibly be right that the chassis is connected to the neutral
>which carries current?
Under some conditions (old installation), yes. But since most of the
loads in an oven are 240 V, there isn't much connected to neutral. And
since the neutral for the stove isn't shared with any other circuit in
the house, and neutral is connected to ground back at the panel, there
should be very very little voltage on the stove neutral - unless it gets
disconnected accidentally.
Dave
Mark
>
> The element is normally fed from 240 V. The heat is generated in an
> inner resistance component which is completely insulated (electrically)
> from the element's outer metal jacket, which is grounded by touching
> other metal parts of the oven (and possibly by an explicit ground wire).
>
> In normal operation, the jacket of the element is always grounded, so
> there's no voltage on it. *But* if the element breaks or the insulation
> between the core and jacket fails, you can get current flow between the
> centre core and the jacket - there is 120 V from *each* side of a broken
> core and the jacket. You could get an arc from the core to the jacket
> even with a gap in the element - the 240 V path through the element is
> broken, but there's still 120V at high current available.
>
This is correct... it is a dangerous failure mode...
Many appliances switch only one side of the 220 line so a fault to
ground in the element can't be shut off with the switch...
You have to pull the plug or the breaker.
Yep it's a dangerous failure mode.
Mark
Mark
>
> The element is normally fed from 240 V. The heat is generated in an
> inner resistance component which is completely insulated (electrically)
> from the element's outer metal jacket, which is grounded by touching
> other metal parts of the oven (and possibly by an explicit ground wire).
>
> In normal operation, the jacket of the element is always grounded, so
> there's no voltage on it. *But* if the element breaks or the insulation
> between the core and jacket fails, you can get current flow between the
> centre core and the jacket - there is 120 V from *each* side of a broken
> core and the jacket. You could get an arc from the core to the jacket
> even with a gap in the element - the 240 V path through the element is
> broken, but there's still 120V at high current available.
>
This is correct... it is a dangerous failure mode...
crum...@gmail.com
Since you were nice to me, I'll be concomitantly nice to you in
return.
While you know nothing about oven repair, I must admire your tenacity
and desire. Most of the responses are from technicians like Smitty who
simply mindlessly replace the part and move on with their lives, never
taking the time or mental effort to dig down into they who-what-where-
when-or-why. Their fix-it-and-be-done-with-it approach takes about
fifteen minutes to complete so they can not comprehend why you are
taking longer than they would for something so simple as replacing a
heater element.
A LOT of repairs (probably 95% of all repairs) are done this replace-
parts-one-by-one-until-the-system-works-again method so their approach
has merit.
You can't count the number of times I've overheard the conversation
"My cooling system is overheating. What shall I do?" with the fifteen-
minute response being "just replace the thermostat". Don't think. Just
replace. Ask a question or two like "where is it" and "what is the
part number" but nothing more than that. Certainly don't take apart
any failed item to understand why it failed. Why does it matter. It
failed. You replaced it. What more is there to know. That is the
Smitty mentality. There is nothing wrong with this move-on-with-your-
life mentality. You just don't have it.
Only a few repairs (probably less than 5%) are done using a systematic
and forensic approach which you seem to lean toward.
The systematic approach takes far longer than fifteen minutes and
requires adequate documentation of the particulars. Many picayune
questions need to be asked and answered. Far more than you've asked so
far. Almost always, the errant part needs to be destroyed and the
pieces analyzed to determine the true sequence of events and ultimate
cause of the failure, which will suggest the appropriate solution.
Most advances in knowledge are by this approach.
Most work is done by the fifteen-minute approach. Most advances are
done by the systematic approach. You chose. You lose.This is not the
message board for the systematic approach. We don't know how it works.
And we don't care. We fix it. We get paid. We move on. You should too.
If you insist on the systemic approach, then you will find very few
people here who have the patience to help you. Most don't want to
admit they have no clue as all they do is remove two bolts and they're
done. They can't comprehend why you still have questions after
removing those two bolts.
My advice to you is for you to put the two bolts back in, plug the
oven in, and if it works, you'll know as much as 95% of the people who
responded to your initial question. If you insist on trying to figure
out what happened, I suggest you post a closeup photograph of the
element at the point of failure. I suspect you'll find the typical
spiral pattern of the failed element burning through the metal casing
and arcing to the oven itself until the power failed.
If you wish to better understand how the heater element works, I
suggest as others have done, that you hack saw through both the failed
and pristing section where you'll see the spiral pattern of the
element embedded in the sintered ceramic surrounded by high
temperature steel which will have failed at the point of arcing, in a
barber-shop spiral down your element.
I no longer think you're a ditz. You're just different, in a sickly
sweet nice kind of way!
crum...@gmail.com
his (and those from dpb and Jack and trad) are the ones that command
your attention.
Read every word of what Dave Martindale just said. Read them again.
Look at your parts. Look at your oven. Put two and two together. Then
ask more questions if you still have them. Dave covered what happened
pretty well.
If all you need is how to replace the element, read Smitty two-bolts
and you'll be done in fifteen minutes.
Al Bundy
GE has never been the same since Ronny quit advertising for them.
Dave Martindale
>This is correct... it is a dangerous failure mode...
>Many appliances switch only one side of the 220 line so a fault to
>ground in the element can't be shut off with the switch...
>You have to pull the plug or the breaker.
>Yep it's a dangerous failure mode.
Any generalizations about which stoves have switches that switch both
sides of the line, and which switch only one?
The last time I took apart a failed "infinite heat" control for a range
element, I noticed that the bimetallic element that modulates the on/off
time had only one contact, and thus switched only one side of the 240 V.
But when you turned the control to "off", a second contact opened the
other side of the 240 V circuit as well, so the element was supposed to
be completely isolated in the "off" position. I don't know how typical
this switch is. (And if the second contact stuck closed, you'd never
notice in normal use).
Dave
Donna Ohl
> An arc by definition occurs across a gap which
> would be an open circuit if the arc was not there. And even when there
> is a gap in the element, an energized element has 120 V between the
> resistor core and the jacket (in North America).
Hi Dave,
Is this what probably happened in my "typical" oven fire?
0. Something (grease perhaps) was on the broil element in one spot
1. The grounded jacket thinned in that one spot, ever so slightly
2. Over time, that one spot cracked, ever so slightly
3. Over time, stress increased on the resistor core encased in concrete
4. At some point, the cantilever stress broke the inside resistive core
5. I heard a "sound" as the air gap ionized to a conductive plasma
6. The core melted, causing the plasma gap to expand (more sound)
7. The super-heated plasma conductivity extended to the metal jacket
8. The core-to-jacket arc melted the jacket "backward" in a spiral pattern
9. I turned off the broiler but that only reduced to half the pressure
10. The other 120v pressure still allowed the plasma to remain heated
11. The plasma arc spiralled backward toward the remaining 120v pressure
12. Opening the house circuit eliminated the pressure & the "fire" went out
Is this what happened?
Did I miss any steps?
Donna
PanHandler
"Donna Ohl" <donn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:oi4Ik.2154$hc1...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
That's it. I'M OUTTA HERE.
Red Green
> On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 07:47:27 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
>
>>> Do the two 120 volt hot wires go to the two ends while the neutral
>>> goes to that third end of the broiling element loop???
>
>> Why don't you just read the wiring diagram stuck on the back of oven?
>
> Hi Tony,
>
> There is no wiring diagram on the back of the oven:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279121/
>
> But, I didn't know that until I just now asked a neighbor to help me
> move the destroyed oven away from the wall. He was kind enough to move
> it outside before having to go to work.
> He was kind enough...
He just wants to get in your pants :-)
>
> I was hoping there was that wiring diagram on the back of the oven but
> all there was was this picture.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279115/
>
> Notice the 3 wires on the back of the oven do not correspond at all to
> the 4 wires in the inside of the oven!!!!!!
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279131/
>
> Donna
seput@verizon.net Old and Grunpy
"Red Green" <postm...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:Xns9B35B2E0...@216.168.3.70...
> Donna Ohl <donn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:f5pHk.1972$hc1...@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com:
>
>> On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 07:47:27 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>
>>>> Do the two 120 volt hot wires go to the two ends while the neutral
>>>> goes to that third end of the broiling element loop???
>>
>>> Why don't you just read the wiring diagram stuck on the back of oven?
>>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>> There is no wiring diagram on the back of the oven:
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279121/
>>
>> But, I didn't know that until I just now asked a neighbor to help me
>> move the destroyed oven away from the wall. He was kind enough to move
>> it outside before having to go to work.
>
>> He was kind enough...
>
Dave Martindale
>Hi Dave,
>Is this what probably happened in my "typical" oven fire?
>0. Something (grease perhaps) was on the broil element in one spot
>1. The grounded jacket thinned in that one spot, ever so slightly
>2. Over time, that one spot cracked, ever so slightly
>3. Over time, stress increased on the resistor core encased in concrete
>4. At some point, the cantilever stress broke the inside resistive core
I don't think we know why the element failed. Oven elements routinely
get organic stuff (food) splattered or dripped on them, and the usual
result is a bit of smoke as the organics stuff gets burned to carbon or
ash, while the element is completely unhurt.
So, either your element was defective somehow (e.g. a gap in the
insulation somewhere, or it was subjected to some unusual stress at some
point. The initial failure could have been an open resistor core, but
it could equally well have been the core touching the grounded metal
jacket.
By the way, the insulating fill is not concrete - concrete contains lots
of water and doesn't like being red hot. It's some kind of
high-temperature insulator (e.g. a ceramic).
>5. I heard a "sound" as the air gap ionized to a conductive plasma
>6. The core melted, causing the plasma gap to expand (more sound)
>7. The super-heated plasma conductivity extended to the metal jacket
>8. The core-to-jacket arc melted the jacket "backward" in a spiral pattern
All of that's possible, though we don't know for certain.
>9. I turned off the broiler but that only reduced to half the pressure
>10. The other 120v pressure still allowed the plasma to remain heated
>11. The plasma arc spiralled backward toward the remaining 120v pressure
>12. Opening the house circuit eliminated the pressure & the "fire" went out
Substitute "voltage" for "pressure". Electrical voltage is in many ways
like fluid pressure, but they're not the same thing. This assumes you
turned off the switch, but the switch only interrupts one side of the
240 VAC line.
Yes, turning off the house breaker removed the voltage, and the arc
ceased. Turning off the circuit breaker for the stove alone would have
accomplished the same thing.
>Is this what happened?
>Did I miss any steps?
We don't know for sure what happened (at least I don't). But the
sequence is plausible.
Dave
Donna Ohl
> If all you need is how to replace the element, read Smitty two-bolts
> and you'll be done in fifteen minutes.
The WB44T10009 GE broiler element finally arrived (see pic) so we can
continue the oven repair help tutorial.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2950288617/
Warning to others (that I wish someone would have advised me)!
The hole for the temperature sensor screw in the new GE oven broiler heater
element is way TOO SMALL!
You have to widen the mounting hole in the new oven broiler heating element
for the temperature sensor in order for the screw to take hold.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2950288625/
The temperature sensor screw itself won't go in no matter how hard you try.
So I had to start with a smaller screw and then take progressively larger
screws to stretch the hole in the new broiler heating element mounting
plate in order to finally fit the original screw in. It has to be just
right though, so be careful as it will not mount if you make the mounting
hole too wide!
terry
> "Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwri...@geemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9B30E2B1F1494wa...@69.16.185.250...
>
> > On Tue 07 Oct 2008 10:10:56p, PanHandler told us...
>
> >> I'll let others get into your questions, but the upper element is the
> >> "broil" element. On some ovens with a "preheat" feature the broil
> >> element will also come on to help bring the oven to the "bake"
> >> temperature you have set more quickly, at which time the broil element
> >> will shut off.
>
> > Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the "bake"
> > setting, not just to preheat.
>
> Wasn't aware of that. My 6 month old Frigidaire doesn't.
Comments said "SOME" ovens (use the broiler element to bring the
initial baking function of an oven up to temperature more quickly).
Over some 48 years, two homes and various makes of cooking stoves,
we've had both types.
Donna Ohl
> The hole for the temperature sensor screw in the new GE oven broiler heater
> element is way TOO SMALL!
Longer term oven repair report.
The only major issue is that the stove top gets super hot now, almost to
the point of burning your hands should you touch it, even with just the
bake element on at 450 degrees F.
I don't remember the stove top getting that hot before so I'm wondering if
the new broiler element is somehow causing the bake element to heat up more
than it did before.
Or maybe the "thermostat" (where is it?) is cooked and it's telling the
bake element to heat up too much which might be what broke the broil
element in the first place.
I dont' think the oven wall insulation is still wet nor that the fire
extinguisher powder is causing the oven range top to be too hot, do you?
Anyone ever have a problem with the oven stove top being too hot?
jeff....@gmail.com
> On Oct 7, 9:47 pm, Donna Ohl <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
> > Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/)
>
> Listen ditszy,
>
> Save yourself some money and replace the entire stove. You're worrying
> your pretty little head over a very common occurrance. Most broil oven
> elements only last three to five years so you're lucky you got as much
> as you did out of the one you have. When you turned off the heat, in
> your blonde moment (probably all the time) you turned it back on or
> hit the wrong dial because the arcing would have stopped then and
> there.
>
> And, the fire extinguisher didn't put out the arcing because it was
> still arcing and if was the top element (broil you ditz, not bake).
> Here you are spraying powder on an upside down fire. Think about it.
> The powder smothers the fire only if it lands on the fire. You would
> have to turn the entire oven upside down for the fire extinguisher to
> work, you idiot.
>
> As for the part numbers, your oven is a GE Spectra white. Take the WH
> off the part number BTW, it stands for white. That oven has to be at
> least five to ten years old so fat chance you'll ever find the part at
> GE for that. If you do find it, expect to pay upwards of $70 for it
> (PN WB44T10009 for the top broil and PN WB44T100010 for the bottom
> bake element).
>
> What happened is you were dumb enough to have a splat of grease on the
> element, which over time weakened the steel casing which over time
> melted which over time exposed the inner resistive wire which over
> time moved enough to get close to the ungrounded case of the oven
> which arced frightfully (for you) which then cracked when you splashed
> water or fire extinguisher on it which opened the circuit which killed
> the arcing.
>
> I have no idea what the "whoosh" sound was ..... probably the air
> leaving your head as you concentrated on ruining your oven.
>
> You can replace the element for a few hundred bucks with a service
> call, or, if you do it yourself, you will almost certainly drop the
> wires in the back as you unscrew them off the element so that you'll
> have to pay a technician a few hundred bucks to take the oven apart to
> get to the wires you dropped.
>
> Anyway, if you like, call GE and they'll confirm everything I said (I
> used to work for GE by the way).
> GE tech support 800-626-2005
> GE customer service 800-432-2737
> GE oven appliances 800-386-1215
> GE appliance parts 800-626-2002
> GE troubleshooting 800-626-2000
> GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 upper broil element P/N: WB44T10009
> GE Spectra JBP24B0B4 lower bake element P/N: WB44T10010
>
> Respectfully yours
Um, it's ditzy... No s. But I wouldn't expect decent grammar or typing
skills from someone with enough gall to respond "You're worrying your
pretty little head over a very common occurrance(sp)." Is your wife
barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? Probably not. I wouldn't expect
a woman to fall for a sad sap with a protruding neanderthalic forehead
and a job with his name on his shirt, but people amaze me. Next time
you feel kind enough to respond to someone's question, keep your can
of crap to yourself and try to help without being a complete asshole,
you foreskin wrinkle.
dwu...@gmail.com
> The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven went
> on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
> department put it out.
>
> Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl
>
> I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
> itself.
>
> The fire department said replace the oven.
>
> Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element.
> Whose advice should I follow?
> Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
> Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/
Here's a video of the event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ieslf3aB-KQ
Here's how to fix it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgkPWkVUcF8
Probably no need to get a new oven but if you don't do the repair yourself, the service repair man will charge you an arm and a leg to run the oven through its paces and verify that all the electrical connections are putting out the proper voltage. So, decide if the $ is worth your peace of mind. Otherwise a new heating element is probably less than $20.
http://www.amazon.com/General-Electric-WB44X173-Broil-Element/dp/B00A8O0D6O/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1448333886&sr=8-7&keywords=oven+broiler+elements
My recommendation is this: MAKE SURE THE OVEN IS 100% off and the circuit breaker to it is off as well. Take out the old element. Inspect the oven for any damaged porcelain (chipped paint) on the interior. If there is none you should be good to put the new element in and use your oven. Of course use your judgement and if you don't feel you can do the job, hire a professional.
Bob F
close the oven door.
Stormin Mormon
find the picture page still there, on Flicker. Really
astounding. Wonder what the OP did with the oven,
and if it had another fire?
-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.