Wind turbines used to absorb a power surplus?

[Commander Kinsey]

An electrician (who I don't believe) told me if there's too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true? Aren't there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax. Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building new wind farms?

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

> I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
> meters into each home.

Possibly a bit more for both gas and electricity but around the right
ball park figure.

It's always been the case that they had to replace non-smart meters
every so often - at one time I think the target was every 10 years. I
had a friend who worked for BG and one of his jobs was to organise
routine meter replacements (long before smart meters). When it became my
turn to have my gas meter replaced I somehow managed to get an
appointment that suited me :)

And in the UK that comes from green tax.
> Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
> new wind farms?

Shouldn't that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (aka "Commander Kinsey",
"James Wilkinson", "Steven Wanker","Bruce Farquar", "Fred Johnson, etc.),
the pathological resident idiot and attention whore of all the uk ngs,
blathered again:

<FLUSH the subnormal sociopathic trolling attention whore's latest
attention-baiting sick bullshit unread again>

--
damdu...@yahoo.co.uk about Birdbrain Macaw's (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL)
trolling:
"He is a well known attention seeking troll and every reply you
make feeds him.
Starts many threads most of which die quick as on the UK groups anyone
with sense Kill filed him ages ago which is why he now cross posts to
the US groups for a new audience.
This thread was unusual in that it derived and continued without him
to a large extent and his silly questioning is an attempt to get
noticed again."
MID: <be195d5jh0hktj054...@4ax.com>

--
ItsJoanNotJoann addressing Birdbrain Macaw's (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"You're an annoying troll and I'm done with you and your
stupidity."
MID: <e39a6a7f-9677-4e78...@googlegroups.com>

--
AndyW addressing Birdbrain:
"Troll or idiot?...
You have been presented with a viewpoint with information, reasoning,
historical cases, citations and references to back it up and wilfully
ignore all going back to your idea which has no supporting information."
MID: <KaToA.263621$g93.2...@fx10.am4>

--
Phil Lee adressing Birdbrain Macaw:
"You are too stupid to be wasting oxygen."
MID: <uv2u4clurscpat3g2...@4ax.com>

--
Phil Lee describing Birdbrain Macaw:
"I've never seen such misplaced pride in being a fucking moronic motorist."
MID: <j7fb6ct83igfd1g99...@4ax.com>

--
Tony944 addressing Birdbrain Macaw:
"I seen and heard many people but you are on top of list being first class
ass hole jerk. ...You fit under unconditional Idiot and should be put in
mental institution.
MID: <VLCdnYC5HK1Z4S3F...@giganews.com>

--
Pelican to Birdbrain Macaw:
"Ok. I'm persuaded . You are an idiot."
MID: <obru31$nao$3...@dont-email.me>

--
DerbyDad03 addressing Birdbrain Macaw (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"Frigging Idiot. Get the hell out of my thread."
MID: <4d907253-b3b9-40d4...@googlegroups.com>

--
Kerr Mudd-John about Birdbrain Macaw (now "Commander Kinsey LOL):
"It's like arguing with a demented frog."
MID: <op.yy3c0...@dell3100.workgroup>

--
Mr Pounder Esquire about Birdbrain Macaw (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"the piss poor delivery boy with no hot running water, 11 cats and
several parrots living in his hovel."
MID: <odqtgc$iug$1...@dont-email.me>

--
Rob Morley about Birdbrain:
"He's a perennial idiot"
MID: <20170519215057.56a1f1d4@Mars>

--
JoeyDee to Birdbrain
"I apologize for thinking you were a jerk. You're just someone with an IQ
lower than your age, and I accept that as a reason for your comments."
MID: <0001HW.1EE2D20300...@news.eternal-september.org>

--
Sam Plusnet about Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"He's just desperate to be noticed. Any attention will do, no matter how
negative it may be."
MID: <rOmdndd_O7u8iK7E...@brightview.co.uk>

--
thekma...@gmail.com asking Birdbrain:
"What, were you dropped on your head as a child?"
MID: <58ddfad5-d9a5-4031...@googlegroups.com>

--
Christie addressing endlessly driveling Birdbrain Macaw (now "Commander
Kinsey" LOL):
"What are you resurrecting that old post of mine for? It's from last
month some time. You're like a dog who's just dug up an old bone they
hid in the garden until they were ready to have another go at it."
MID: <59d8b0db...@news.eternal-september.org>

--
Mr Pounder's fitting description of Birdbrain Macaw:
"You are a well known fool, a tosser, a pillock, a stupid unemployable
sponging failure who will always live alone and will die alone. You will not
be missed."
MID: <orree6$on2$1...@dont-email.me>

--
Richard to pathetic wanker Hucker:
"You haven't bred?
Only useful thing you've done in your pathetic existence."
MID: <orvctf$l5m$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

--
cl...@snyder.on.ca about Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
""not the sharpest knife in the drawer"'s parents sure made a serious
mistake having him born alive -- A total waste of oxygen, food, space,
and bandwidth."
MID: <s5e9uclqpnabteheh...@4ax.com>

--
Mr Pounder exposing sociopathic Birdbrain:
"You will always be a lonely sociopath living in a shithole with no hot
running water with loads of stinking cats and a few parrots."
MID: <os5m1i$8m1$1...@dont-email.me>

--
francis about Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"He seems to have a reputation as someone of limited intelligence"
MID: <cf06cdd9-8bb8-469c...@googlegroups.com>

--
Peter Moylan about Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"If people like JWS didn't exist, we would have to find some other way to
explain the concept of "invincible ignorance"."
MID: <otofc8$tbg$2...@dont-email.me>

--
Lewis about nym-shifting Birdbrain:
"Typical narcissist troll, thinks his shit is so grand he has the right to
try to force it on everyone
MID: <slrnq16c27....@jaka.local>

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, anal_m, the notorious troll-feeding
senile retard, blathered again:

> Possibly a bit more for both gas and electricity but around the right
> ball park figure.

And the first troll-feeding senile asshole, anal_m himself, appeared to feed
the abnormal trolling swine again! <BG>

--
Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL) baiting the senile assholes in these
groups:
"Having read the utter bullshit about dying if you fall in a freezing lake
for 15 minutes, I've tried it on many occasions. It takes 30 minutes to
even get chattering teeth, an hour to shiver nicely, and 2 hours to shiver
hard."
MID: <op.yvpol...@red.lan>

[The Natural Philosopher]

Of course it should be, along with all windmills, solar panels and any
feed in tarriffs.

Your confusion arises from the fact they you think they are working for
you. Government is not your friend, or your servant, It's your enemy,
and wants to be your master. Because if it isn't it fears you might get
rid of it.


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

[Sylvia Else]

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it's designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

Sylvia.

[Frank]

Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you do,
pump back wind?

[Davey]

See:
https://www.energy-storage.news/delivering-pumped-hydro-storage-in-the-uk-after-a-three-decade-interlude/
--
Davey.

[SteveW]

That idea has probably come from the use of "barring gear". When not in
use, some wind turbines are electrically driven and turn slowly, to
prevent semi-permanent sagging of blades or shafts when left stationary
in one position.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else, another brain dead,
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

> Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
> willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.

And the second retarded troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE appeared and willingly
fed the attention-starved trolling Scottish swine!

--
Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL) baiting the senile assholes in these
groups:

"However I do like to make fun of people. For example, a professor once
told a secretary off for having a topless male model as the wallpaper on her
computer. So I told her he was a hypocrite, and that he had pictures of
transvestites on his (not as wallpaper, but stored on the hard disk). She
spread that around quite quickly."
MID: <op.y4l80...@red.lan>

[upsid...@downunder.com]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, "Commander Kinsey"
<C...@nospam.com> wrote:

>An electrician (who I don't believe) told me if there's too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true? Aren't there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

If there is a risk of overproduction due to wind turbines, simply stop
some wind turbines. Wind turbines must have brakes so that they can be
stopped during a strong storm (about 25 m/s) to avoid damaging the
turbine. Of course greenies will complain about stopping renewable
production, but who cares :-).

In practice, district heating companies are installing electrically
heated boilers to heat district heating water when there is an
overproduction of wind energy and hence the selectivity price drops
towards zero, thus saving on coal/oil/gas/biofuel during
overproduction.

In areas with mainly cooling loads, wind and solar overproduction can
be used to cool water in advance for air conditioning.

The problem with renewable overproduction is not a big issue, but
underproduction lasting several days is. IMHO oil/gas should be used
to address those periods when renewables are not available, but
greenies object also to this.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 07:23:09 -0400, REAL dumb Frankie Boi, the notorious
troll-feeding senile asshole and Trumptard, blathered again:

> Does not make any sense.

NOTHING makes sense with that trolling swine, gay wanker and attention
whore, just like NOTHING makes sense with your notorious troll-feeding, you
troll-feeding senile Trumptard!

--
More details from Birdbrain's (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL) sociopathic
"mind":

"If I wanted you to stab me with a knife and kill me, you should not
get into trouble for it".
"I would kill my sister if I thought I'd get away with it".
"I'm not what most people think of as human".
(Courtesy of Mr Pounder)

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 11:17, Sylvia Else wrote:

> On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

How do you think a wind farm works when there is no wind? For 50% of the
windmills you turn on the fan mode so the rest of them can generate
electricity. It's the perfect perpetual motion scheme on a gigantic scale.

[Jeff Gaines]

On 18/03/2023 in message <tv467v$2f79h$1...@dont-email.me> The Natural

Philosopher wrote:

>>Shouldn't that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
>>It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.
>>
>Of course it should be, along with all windmills, solar panels and any
>feed in tarriffs.
>
>Your confusion arises from the fact they you think they are working for
>you. Government is not your friend, or your servant, It's your enemy, and
>wants to be your master. Because if it isn't it fears you might get rid of
>it.

Are you an American? It's that sort of argument that makes them feel they
need guns to defend themselves from government (and as a penis substitute
of course).

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Though no-one can go back and make a new start, everyone can start from
now and make a new ending.

[Dean Hoffman]

On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 4:39:11 AM UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> An electrician (who I don't believe) told me if there's too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true? Aren't there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?
>
> I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax. Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building new wind farms?

The ones I see sometimes pivot so the blades are parallel with the wind shutting them down. It seem to be the same action as when the winds are too strong.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 13:39:21 +0200, upsid...@downunder.com, another
mentally challenged troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

> If there is a risk of overproduction due to wind turbines, simply stop
> some wind turbines.

How about YOU stopping feeding the attention-starved trolling wanker, you
idiotic troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE?

--
More from Birdbrain's (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL) sociopathic "mind":
"Why do people get upset about getting punched on the nose? It's only as bad
as falling off your bike."
MID: <op.ymrl1...@red.lan>

[Brian Gaff]

I think this highly unlikely. I think turning down is not so easy, since it
is AC, and has to respond to sudden loads. What should happen is that the
loading on most systems will reduce as the generator is easier to turn, but
the frequency remains the same. I do not know what method is used these days
as governors. I'm sure its probably highly technical and not two weights and
a brake as it used to be on wind up gramophones!
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:op.11zw3...@ryzen.home...

[Brian Gaff]

I think when you look at the cost of the meter and the labour costs these
days, then nothing is cheap, that is why even minor prangs of you car can
write it off as its the labour and inflated cost of parts. So many people
buy it and get it fixed instead, probably by a mate at a faction of the
costs the insurance will be charged.

Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:tv467v$2f79h$1...@dont-email.me...

[Carlos E.R.]

Yes, they need a different kind of inverter, way more expensive, to do that.

> On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.

On the other hand, any synchronous generator (without electronics) runs
as a motor if the voltage on the output rises (constant speed, though).
I don't suppose they like that on hydro places, could do damage.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, "Commander

Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote:

>An electrician (who I don't believe) told me if there's too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true?

Sure. YOu know how people with solar cells sell their electricity back
to the power company, when they don't need to use it all. In the same
way, when there is too much electricity, it's sent to wind turbines, and
they spin backwards and they blow the wind back where it came from. So
that later, it will blow in the first direction again when more
electricity is needed.

> Aren't there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?
>
>I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax. Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building new wind farms?

They don't need more wind farms because if too much wind is blown
backwards, the seasons will change.

It takes under an hour to change the meter, maybe under 15 minutes, and
I would guess the cost of a smart meter is under 200 pounds. At least
the marginal cost. In this situation, every cost estimator seems to
come up with a price higher than to be expected. Not sure how they do
it.

Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
that saves a lot of money in the long run. They can arrange for rolling
black outs if that is ever needed in the UK, and they can do time-of-day
billing, to encourage people to dry their clothes outside of the
electrical rush hour.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 05:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Dean Dumb Hoffman, another
mentally deficient, troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, babbled again:

> The ones I see sometimes pivot so the blades are parallel with the wind
> shutting them down. It seem to be the same action as when the winds are
> too strong.

You demented troll-feeding senile shithead don't seem to mind the wind of
the troll blowing in your face. Quite to the contrary, you obviously enjoy
inhaling it. <BG>

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 12:10:40 -0000, Brainless & Daft, the TV-watching and
pity-baiting senile "blind" mole, blathered again:

> I think this highly unlikely. I think turning down is not so easy, since it
> is AC, and has to respond to sudden loads. What should happen is that the
> loading on most systems will reduce as the generator is easier to turn, but
> the frequency remains the same. I do not know what method is used these days
> as governors. I'm sure its probably highly technical and not two weights and
> a brake as it used to be on wind up gramophones!

> Brainless & Daft

YOU again, you useless, endlessly bullshitting, troll-feeding senile PEST?
You DISGUST me! But you are lucky that most people really keep pitying you!
<BG>

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
>> meters into each home.
>
>Possibly a bit more for both gas and electricity but around the right
>ball park figure.
>
>It's always been the case that they had to replace non-smart meters
>every so often - at one time I think the target was every 10 years. I
>had a friend who worked for BG and one of his jobs was to organise
>routine meter replacements (long before smart meters). When it became my
>turn to have my gas meter replaced I somehow managed to get an
>appointment that suited me :)
>
> And in the UK that comes from green tax.
>> Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
>> new wind farms?

Windmills will still be useless when there's no wind. Pity that
there's no good way to store electricity.

>
>Shouldn't that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
>It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.

Smart meters eliminated meter reader people too. Reading a meter could
be a real hassle in many situations. Some utilities only did it a few
times a year and interpolated/extrapolated the monthly bills. At our
cabin in the mountains, the old meters were buried in snow for months.
Now I can ask for a realtime graph of power or gas or water use; we
spotted a water leak that way.

We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!

The long feeder from the street came down, and they fixed that for
free too.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p6s7l66iq9xy9nt/Fascia_2.jpg?raw=1

[John Larkin]

Our regulated private utilities here are excellent. Some towns have
taken over local distribution, so are getting less excellent.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 12:14:45 -0000, Brainless & Daft, the notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:

> I think

Don't, you disgusting, endlessly blathering senile twit! Nothing good will
come of it!

[Peeler]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:02:02 -0400, micky mouse, the absolutely idiotic,
notorious, troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, blathered again:


> Sure.

Surely, he is a trolling piece of shit and you are a troll-feeding senile
piece of shit, micky mouse!

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 15:31, John Larkin wrote:

> We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!

No you don't. The only way they reach you from the money you pay either
by a company overcharging or from taxation :)

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>
wrote:

If a steam plant makes too much power until it can throttle down, and
nobody wants the power, why not dump steam into the condenser?

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:29:24 +0000, SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk>
wrote:

Steam turbines on ships (now mostly diesels) engaged a "turning gear"
electric motor to slowly rotate things so a hot turbine shaft wouldn't
sag.

Steam ships used cheap fuel, basically street paving quality gunk, but
were so complex that it was hard to find crews to keep them running.
Diesels are much simpler.

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 15:02, micky wrote:

> Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
> that saves a lot of money in the long run.

Using your argument about 15 minutes for a smart meter installation per
house not costing a lot the 30 seconds to read a meter once every 12
months means that the payback time for just the labour is more more than
30 years. If the meter takes 1 hour to install the saving payback time
for not having a meter reader is 120 years :)

A gas meter will need a new battery in 10 years, or less

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:28:24 +0000, Davey <da...@example.invalid>
wrote:

"Up to days at a time".

[Rod Speed]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>

wrote:

> On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> An electrician (who I don't believe) told me if there's too much power
>> on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is
>> this really true? Aren't there plenty of power stations they can just
>> turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?
>> I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
>> meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax.
>> Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
>> new wind farms?
>

> Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
> willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
> output.

The UK has very litttle coal fired power generation anymore.

And the gas fired power generation is easy to modulate.

> So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible.

Fraid so.

[Rod Speed]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote

>> And in the UK that comes from green tax.

>> Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
>> new wind farms?

> Shouldn't that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.

> It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.

And that is a completely insane thing to do, tax everyone,
pump that money thru the bureaucracy and staight back to
precisely the same people that it came from in the first place.

Only advantage is that in theory it forces people to have
CFL light bulbs which they would otherwise not bother
with and might see some use them given they are 'free'

We were never actually stupid enough to have a green tax
and our electricity suppliers did hand out free CFL light
bulbs. I ony ever used a couple of the dozens I got given.

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 16:23:07 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 18/03/2023 15:31, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!
>
>No you don't. The only way they reach you from the money you pay either
>by a company overcharging or from taxation :)

The LEDs save energy so make everyone's costs go down.

We only have a few incandescents left. Either old, very rarely used
bulbs, or one small incandescent on a string of LEDs to make them dim
properly. Some "dimmable" LEDs and some dimmers don't work together.

[Rod Speed]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:56:18 +1100, Jeff Gaines <jgne...@outlook.com>
wrote:

> On 18/03/2023 in message <tv467v$2f79h$1...@dont-email.me> The Natural
> Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> Shouldn't that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
>>> It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.
>>>
>> Of course it should be, along with all windmills, solar panels and any
>> feed in tarriffs.
>>
>> Your confusion arises from the fact they you think they are working for
>> you. Government is not your friend, or your servant, It's your enemy,
>> and wants to be your master. Because if it isn't it fears you might get
>> rid of it.

> Are you an American?

Nope, a senile rabid pom.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 03:54:15 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
David Plowman about senile Rodent Speed's trolling:
"Wodney is doing a lot of morphing these days. Must be even more desperate
than usual for attention."
MID: <59a60da...@davenoise.co.uk>

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 16:45, John Larkin wrote:

>>>
>>> Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
>>> water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you
>>> do, pump back wind?
>>
>> See:
>> https://www.energy-storage.news/delivering-pumped-hydro-storage-in-the-uk-after-a-three-decade-interlude/
>
> "Up to days at a time".
>

Yep, this 1,500 MW scheme will make up for the UK shortfall when the
wind doesn't blow. The difference for the UK wind between blowing and
not blowing is close to 15,000 MW so to just backup the existing
windmills we need 10 of these pumped storage facilities. When even more
windmills are built the shortfall when the wind is absent requires
perhaps 20 to 30 of these facilities. And what happens for when the wind
doesn't blow for 14 days and the pumped water head runs dry after a
couple of days?

This scheme probably only makes financial sense if we rely on windmills
where they can sell back the electricity at 10x the going rate when
there is no wind.

[Rod Speed]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 02:31:25 +1100, John Larkin
<jla...@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 10:49:57 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>
>>> I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
>>> meters into each home.
>>
>> Possibly a bit more for both gas and electricity but around the right
>> ball park figure.
>>
>> It's always been the case that they had to replace non-smart meters
>> every so often - at one time I think the target was every 10 years. I
>> had a friend who worked for BG and one of his jobs was to organise
>> routine meter replacements (long before smart meters). When it became my
>> turn to have my gas meter replaced I somehow managed to get an
>> appointment that suited me :)
>>
>> And in the UK that comes from green tax.
>>> Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
>>> new wind farms?
>
> Windmills will still be useless when there's no wind. Pity that
> there's no good way to store electricity.

There is, pumped hydro. Problem is that
the UK has fuck all suitable sites for that.

[Rod Speed]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote

> micky wrote

>> Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
>> that saves a lot of money in the long run.

> Using your argument about 15 minutes for a smart meter installation per
> house not costing a lot the 30 seconds to read a meter once every 12
> months

Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds to
read.

> means that the payback time for just the labour is more more than 30
> years.

5 years is more realistic.

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 17:01, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 16:23:07 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 18/03/2023 15:31, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>> We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!
>>
>> No you don't. The only way they reach you from the money you pay either
>> by a company overcharging or from taxation :)
>
> The LEDs save energy so make everyone's costs go down.

But you probably would have got the bulbs cheaper by purchasing them
yourself rather than overpaying on your bills and then being given some
of your own money back (via bulbs) minus an administration charge.

There was never "FREE" LED bulbs - you just paid for them in a
convoluted way.

>
> We only have a few incandescents left. Either old, very rarely used
> bulbs, or one small incandescent on a string of LEDs to make them dim
> properly. Some "dimmable" LEDs and some dimmers don't work together.

The only incandescent bulb I have is in the microwave, I have 2 CFL in
the loft and switched on perhaps twice a year for 10 minutes at a time,
all the rest are LED.

[Cindy Hamilton]

On 2023-03-18, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 15:02, micky wrote:
>
>> Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
>> that saves a lot of money in the long run.
>
> Using your argument about 15 minutes for a smart meter installation per
> house not costing a lot the 30 seconds to read a meter once every 12
> months

Prior to smart meters, ours were read once a month. The meter reader
had to trudge from house to house--they're about 40 meters apart on
my road, although it's twice that from my house to the one to the
south. Multiply that by 155 million customers in the U.S. It adds up.

> means that the payback time for just the labour is more more than
> 30 years. If the meter takes 1 hour to install the saving payback time
> for not having a meter reader is 120 years :)

There are other advantages for the consumer and for the power company.
I can find out what I'm drawing in much more detail, so I can see
how much it costs to run various appliances. The power company has
implemented time-of-day pricing, now that it has that information.

--
Cindy Hamilton

[Tim+]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The only incandescent bulb I have is in the microwave,

What kind of bulb do you have in your oven?

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 17:36:50 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>

wrote:

>On 18/03/2023 17:01, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 16:23:07 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/03/2023 15:31, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>>> We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!
>>>
>>> No you don't. The only way they reach you from the money you pay either
>>> by a company overcharging or from taxation :)
>>
>> The LEDs save energy so make everyone's costs go down.
>
>But you probably would have got the bulbs cheaper by purchasing them
>yourself rather than overpaying on your bills and then being given some
>of your own money back (via bulbs) minus an administration charge.

If I pick up a few free bulbs, I don't think my electric bill will go
up. Statistically, it probably goes down.

>
>There was never "FREE" LED bulbs - you just paid for them in a
>convoluted way.
>
>>
>> We only have a few incandescents left. Either old, very rarely used
>> bulbs, or one small incandescent on a string of LEDs to make them dim
>> properly. Some "dimmable" LEDs and some dimmers don't work together.
>
>The only incandescent bulb I have is in the microwave, I have 2 CFL in
>the loft and switched on perhaps twice a year for 10 minutes at a time,
>all the rest are LED.

CFLs fail when the electrolytic caps blow up, usually from turn-on
surge. Sometimes the tube fails.

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 17:23:59 +0000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 18/03/2023 16:45, John Larkin wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Does not make any sense. I think it is done with hydroelectric where
>>>> water is pumped back up at night when usage is down but what do you
>>>> do, pump back wind?
>>>
>>> See:
>>> https://www.energy-storage.news/delivering-pumped-hydro-storage-in-the-uk-after-a-three-decade-interlude/
>>
>> "Up to days at a time".
>>
>
>Yep, this 1,500 MW scheme will make up for the UK shortfall when the
>wind doesn't blow. The difference for the UK wind between blowing and
>not blowing is close to 15,000 MW so to just backup the existing
>windmills we need 10 of these pumped storage facilities. When even more
>windmills are built the shortfall when the wind is absent requires
>perhaps 20 to 30 of these facilities. And what happens for when the wind
>doesn't blow for 14 days and the pumped water head runs dry after a
>couple of days?

Elections.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 04:09:25 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Bod addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"Rod, you have a sick twisted mind. I suggest you stop your mindless
and totally irresponsible talk. Your mouth could get you into a lot of
trouble."
MID: <gfbb94...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 04:25:07 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Richard about senile Rodent:
"Rod Speed, a bare faced pig and ignorant twat."
MID: <r5uoe4$1kqo$2...@gioia.aioe.org>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 04:00:13 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743...@news.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 04:34:37 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

pamela about Rodent Speed:
"His off the cuff expertise demonstrates how little he knows..."
MID: <XnsA90B720...@81.171.92.183>

[Jack Harry Teesdale]

There are probably thousands of CFL's in their original boxes stored in
cupboards in houses in the UK that have NEVER been used!

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 17:50, Tim+ wrote:
> alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> The only incandescent bulb I have is in the microwave,
>
> What kind of bulb do you have in your oven?
>

Gas hob
Combined microwave/oven

[rbowman]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 08:31:25 -0700, John Larkin wrote:


> Windmills will still be useless when there's no wind. Pity that there's
> no good way to store electricity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Northfield_Mountain_(hydroelectricity_facility)

https://www.wbur.org/news/2016/12/02/northfield-mountain-hydroelectric-
station

The company I worked for at the time was a distributor for Trabon
automatic lubrication systems. I didn't have much to do with that part of
the business but tagged along with the crew doing the installation one
day.

It was impressive. There were many workstations throughout the cavern each
equipped with every Rigid pipe tool known to man, all virginal. That was
'71. I wonder what it looks lie today?

All you need is a river and a handy mountain.

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 17:34, Rod Speed wrote:

> Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds to
> read.

Where I live it was more like once every two years. Knock on the door
with torch in hand, read the figures on two meters, figures entered in
hand held pad, goodbye.

[rbowman]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 17:36:50 +0000, alan_m wrote:


> But you probably would have got the bulbs cheaper by purchasing them
> yourself rather than overpaying on your bills and then being given some
> of your own money back (via bulbs) minus an administration charge.
>
> There was never "FREE" LED bulbs - you just paid for them in a
> convoluted way.

I'm in a power co-op that sent out CFLs and the LEDs. The mail person
really loved the pile of boxes suddenly appearing to be delivered.

The co-op also pays out a dividend. It isn't much, usually around $50, but
it's refreshing getting money back. It is associated with the Bonneville
Power Authority so we weren't hit with massive rate increases after the
deregulation fiasco.

Historically it goes back to Roosevelt's Rural Electrification Act of
1936. The utility companies didn't want to get involved so the farmers and
ranchers formed co-ops.

I'm waiting for the Rural Fiber Cable Act but I don't think that's going
to happen.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 3/18/2023 2:44 PM, alan_m wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 17:34, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds
>> to read.
>
> Where I live it was more like once every two years. Knock on the door
> with torch in hand, read the figures on two meters, figures entered in
> hand held pad, goodbye.
>

Never heard or that long. Been once a month here for over 70 years that
I know of. 30 seconds? Really? So five minutes for 10 houses. Try it
and get back to us.

[Peeler]

On 18 Mar 2023 18:49:58 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I'm in a power co-op

You are, first and foremost, full of yourself, pathological bigmouth!

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On 18 Mar 2023 18:40:46 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> Northfield_Mountain_(hydroelectricity_facility)
>
> https://www.wbur.org/news/2016/12/02/northfield-mountain-hydroelectric-
> station
>
> The company I worked for

Oh, no! Blabbermouth is at it again...

<FLUSH crap>

--
Yet more of the so very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"My family loaded me into a '51 Chevy and drove from NY to Seattle and
back in '52. I'm alive. The Chevy had a painted steel dashboard with two
little hand prints worn down to the primer because I liked to stand up
and lean on it to see where we were going."
MID: <j2kuc1...@mid.individual.net>

[Rod Speed]

Yeah, I have two dozen. Bet there are millions in the UK.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 06:44:53 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 89-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[Rod Speed]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote

>> Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds to
>> read.

> Where I live it was more like once every two years.

> Knock on the door

Our meter boxes are all on an outside wall of the house.

> with torch in hand, read the figures on two meters,

Same here, peak and off peak meter.

> figures entered in hand held pad,

Same here.

> goodbye.

They never say anything to the house occupant
here unless there is what looks like a dog that
might bite them in the backyard. Since I have 3
massive great 8'x8' patio doors between where
I sit and where he walks from the back gate to
the meter box half way up the 100' long N wall,
I normall can hear him open the 4'x4' metal
door with a horizontal hinge on the top edge
and might get a wave as he leaves when he
can see me looking at him leaving.

[Bob F]

On 3/18/2023 7:27 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-03-18 12:17, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> An electrician (who I don't believe) told me if there's too much
>>> power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra
>>> power.  Is this really true?  Aren't there plenty of power stations
>>> they can just turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

>>>
>>> I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart

>>> meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.

>>> Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
>>> building new wind farms?
>>

>> Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can
>> be willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing
>> output.
>>
>> So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
>> turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
>> frequency, and it seems unlikely that it's designed to operate in
>> reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.
>
> Yes, they need a different kind of inverter, way more expensive, to do
> that.
>
>> On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.
>
> On the other hand, any synchronous generator (without electronics) runs
> as a motor if the voltage on the output rises (constant speed, though).
> I don't suppose they like that on hydro places, could do damage.
>

There are hydro power plants that pump water up during low usage and use
the motors as generators when more is needed.

[Bob F]

Indoor meter for someone that is never home?

That bill could really hurt.

[Peeler]

"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[Cindy Hamilton]

I've never had an indoor electric or gas meter. Water meters are indoors
to prevent freezing, but now they have a transmitter (or something) wired
from the indoor meter to the outside of the house. Unless they've
become even fancier, a truck drives down the street and reads the
signal from each water meter.

--
Cindy Hamilton

[Ed Pawlowski]

When I lived in Philadelphia, indoor meters were the norm. There was a
time that mom was home so not a big deal. They would also leave a card
with the meter dials printed and you filled out the position and mailed
it.

There are a lot of stores from meter readers too. Some houses had coal
stoves and people burned all sort of stuff, such as every other step
going to the basement. They also got to know the exhibitionists on the
route too.

My electric meter here is read daily. I can go on line or my phone and
see current charges and projected bill at any time.

[Sylvia Else]

On 18-Mar-23 10:39 pm, Peeler wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else, another brain dead,
> troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

>
>
>> Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
>> willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.
>

> And the second retarded troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE appeared and willingly
> fed the attention-starved trolling Scottish swine!
>

You could kill-file me. I promise I won't mind.

Sylvia.

[Sylvia Else]

On 19-Mar-23 3:31 am, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 22:17:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid>

> wrote:
>
>> On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> An electrician (who I don't believe) told me if there's too much power
>>> on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power.  Is
>>> this really true?  Aren't there plenty of power stations they can just
>>> turn down a bit?  Take your foot off the gas so to speak?
>>>
>>> I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
>>> meters into each home.  And in the UK that comes from green tax.
>>> Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building
>>> new wind farms?
>>

>> Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly, and can be
>> willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.
>>

>> So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
>> turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
>> frequency, and it seems unlikely that it's designed to operate in
>> reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.
>>

>> On balance, then, I doubt that using wind turbines as fans is real.
>>

>> Sylvia.
>
> If a steam plant makes too much power until it can throttle down, and
> nobody wants the power, why not dump steam into the condenser?
>

I don't know what the technical issue is, but here in Australia, it's
not especially unusual for the spot electricity price to go negative at
night when coal plants don't want to reduce their output. If they had
another solution that didn't involve spending money, I'm sure they'd use it.

Sylvia.

[Bob F]

On 3/18/2023 9:23 AM, alan_m wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 15:31, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> We do get free LED bulbs and Christmas lights from TDPUD!
>
> No you don't. The only way they reach you from the money you pay either
> by a company overcharging or from taxation :)

Maybe not.

The power companies know that LED bulbs cost a lot less than new power
sources.

[alan_m]

In which country is this once a month appearance by a meter reader?

Here in the the UK in 40 years of house ownership I've only had the
meter readers enter my property around 20 times. The water meter is
outside and read around twice a year (water and sewage bills are every 6
months but paid monthly by direct debit straight from my bank account).
I also pay for my electricity and gas by a monthly direct debit.

I was making the comparison about 15 minutes to fit a smart meter which
didn't include any allowance for travelling or picking the meter up from
a depot. It's a like for like comparison about the meter reader only
taking 30 seconds from entering my property to leaving it having read
both the electricity and gas meters.

[alan_m]

Only if the power company haven't overestimated the usage for when they
take the monthly DD.

From the defunct Bulb Energy FAQ

Morrison Data Services carry out meter readings for us.

Meter readers are required to visit everyone's property at least once
every 2 years to make sure everything's safe and ticking over properly.

[Rod Speed]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 08:51:20 +1100, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 18/03/2023 19:09, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 3/18/2023 2:44 PM, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2023 17:34, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds
>>>> to read.
>>>
>>> Where I live it was more like once every two years. Knock on the door
>>> with torch in hand, read the figures on two meters, figures entered in
>>> hand held pad, goodbye.
>>>
>> Never heard or that long. Been once a month here for over 70 years
>> that I know of. 30 seconds? Really? So five minutes for 10 houses.
>> Try it and get back to us.
>
> In which country is this once a month appearance by a meter reader?

He's a yank. So is Bowman and Cindy.

> Here in the the UK in 40 years of house ownership I've only had the
> meter readers enter my property around 20 times. The water meter is
> outside and read around twice a year (water and sewage bills are every 6
> months but paid monthly by direct debit straight from my bank account).
> I also pay for my electricity and gas by a monthly direct debit.

> I was making the comparison about 15 minutes to fit a smart meter which
> didn't include any allowance for travelling or picking the meter up from
> a depot. It's a like for like comparison about the meter reader only
> taking 30 seconds from entering my property to leaving it having read
> both the electricity and gas meters.

The difference is that the meter reader goes down the street
reading meters. Meter installers don't.

[Bob F]

That would be really nice for charging your car.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 08:43:46 +1100, Sylvia Else, the troll-loving senile
asshole, blathered again:

>> And the second retarded troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE appeared and willingly
>> fed the attention-starved trolling Scottish swine!
>>
>
> You could kill-file me. I promise I won't mind.

So you could keep feeding the troll without me noticing it? Nice try,
troll-loving bimbo! LOL

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:04:37 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

The Natural Philosopher about senile Rodent:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID: <pu07vj$s5$2...@dont-email.me>

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 18 Mar 2023 17:06:52 -0400, Ed Pawlowski

<e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

>
>There are a lot of stores from meter readers too. Some houses had coal
>stoves and people burned all sort of stuff,

When my parents got married, my father bought a stoker, a hopper with a
worm gear, so that my mother (well, I didn't exist so they weren't
parents yet.) so my mother wouldnt' have to shovel coal all day long.
He'd fill it up in the morning. But he was 53 and it didn't take long
before he didn't like filling up the stoker and they put in a gas
furnace.

> such as every other step
>going to the basement. They also got to know the exhibitionists on the
>route too.

That's good.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 18 Mar 2023 21:51:20 +0000, alan_m

<ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/03/2023 19:09, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 3/18/2023 2:44 PM, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2023 17:34, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds
>>>> to read.
>>>
>>> Where I live it was more like once every two years. Knock on the door
>>> with torch in hand, read the figures on two meters, figures entered in
>>> hand held pad, goodbye.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Never heard or that long.  Been once a month here for over 70 years that
>> I know of.  30 seconds?  Really?  So five minutes for 10 houses.  Try it
>> and get back to us.
>
>In which country is this once a month appearance by a meter reader?

The USA.

>
>Here in the the UK in 40 years of house ownership I've only had the
>meter readers enter my property around 20 times. The water meter is
>outside and read around twice a year (water and sewage bills are every 6
>months but paid monthly by direct debit straight from my bank account).
>I also pay for my electricity and gas by a monthly direct debit.
>
>I was making the comparison about 15 minutes to fit a smart meter which
>didn't include any allowance for travelling or picking the meter up from
>a depot.

At the start of the day they load 35 meters into his truck, and give him
a list of houses close together, maybe right next to each other. They
plan to do all the houses asap so going one by one down the street is
the simplest way. (If they only do some, then the meter reader still
has to go there for the few houses that are left, and that itself is
inefficient.)

It take a minute to cut the lead-sealed metal strip that holds on the
old meter, a minute to take off the 10" metal ring that holds the meter
to the base, a minute to pull the meter (10 seconds, really), 2 minutes
to take a new meter out of its box, remove the plastic covers to the 3
big tabs, and insert the meter into the base, a minute to replace the
ring, and a minute to attach a new lead band. That's 7 minutes.

Then a minute to enter the meter number (of the new meter) and the new
lead band number into the log, a minute to put the old meter into the
box the new meter came in, and 4 minutes to pick up the old meter and
walk back to the truck. That's 13 minutes.

Now, to get to the next address -- maybe it's next door -- and take
another meter from the back of the truck.

>It's a like for like comparison about the meter reader only
>taking 30 seconds from entering my property to leaving it having read
>both the electricity and gas meters.

My estimate is realistic. I started with an hour until I remembered how
simple it is, that it's not necessary to cut the power to the house and
no wiring is required. It unplugs and plugs back in. I myself have
pulled a meter, removed the plastic covers from the tabs, and replaced
it. Took literally two minutes.

[Carlos E.R.]

Different thing.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Sylvia Else]

Though of course, the end user never sees a cent of this.

Sylvia.

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 23:19, micky wrote:

>
> It take a minute to cut the lead-sealed metal strip that holds on the
> old meter, a minute to take off the 10" metal ring that holds the meter
> to the base, a minute to pull the meter (10 seconds, really), 2 minutes
> to take a new meter out of its box, remove the plastic covers to the 3
> big tabs, and insert the meter into the base, a minute to replace the
> ring, and a minute to attach a new lead band. That's 7 minutes.

My electric smart meter was installed with new tails and an isolation
switch. On the same visit a smart gas meter was installed with the
necessary purging and gas pressure/leak safety checks and the additional
checks to ensure all gas appliances were working satisfactory afterwards.

>
> Now, to get to the next address -- maybe it's next door -- and take
> another meter from the back of the truck.
>
>> It's a like for like comparison about the meter reader only
>> taking 30 seconds from entering my property to leaving it having read
>> both the electricity and gas meters.
>
> My estimate is realistic. I started with an hour until I remembered how
> simple it is, that it's not necessary to cut the power to the house and
> no wiring is required. It unplugs and plugs back in.

In the UK it does not plug in and in my case the suppliers fuse was
pulled to cut the supply.

[Rod Speed]

That's the spot price, not the retail price.

[Rod Speed]

Nothing like that here, but its almost as easy to change the physical
meter.

We have two, one each for peak and off peak electricity.

[alan_m]

On 18/03/2023 19:56, Rod Speed wrote:
> alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>> Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds
>>> to read.
>
>> Where I live it was more like once every two years.
>
>> Knock on the door
>
> Our meter boxes are all on an outside wall of the house.
>

In the UK there is a mix, around my way outside for most newer
properties or often when houses have been converted to flats.
Along my road most houses have their electricity and gas meter inside
the house with no external meter box.

Smart meters are not compulsory and many people have refused the offer
to have them fitted. There has been quite a lot of adverse publicity
recently surrounding smart meters. With energy prices doubling many
hundreds of thousands are struggling paying for their energy. The energy
companies have been programming smart meters to become pre-payment
meters overnight for these people. This is not just more inconvenient
but a more expensive way of pay for energy - although the price
difference compared to us who pay by direct debit will end in July this
year.

There is also a mix of metered and un-metered water. In general, new
builds require a water meter but for older properties the owner can
request one which remains in place for subsequent owners. Again
generalising, if the number of people occupying the property is less
than the number of bedrooms in the property there is likely to be a
large saving in water and sewage charges based on the meter reading so
for many there is an incentive to request a water meter.

[rbowman]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 09:04:37 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

>> In which country is this once a month appearance by a meter reader?
>
> He's a yank. So is Bowman and Cindy.

My electric bill varies monthly and there's a graphic of my consumption
versus the same month in the prior year. I never gave it thought but it's
some sort of remote reading. There are no little footprints in the snow
leading up to the meter.

I doubt they are using power-line communication so there must be someone
driving around to collect the data.

[Ed Pawlowski]

In CT a car drove up the street and read the meters. Electric monthly,
water quarterly.
Here, it transmits to a spot in the community that has a power supply
and a couple of antenna. Electric use is transmitted daily.

[rbowman]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 18:12:49 +0000, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:

> On 18/03/2023 17:00, Rod Speed wrote:
>> alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote
>>

>>>> And in the UK that comes from green tax.
>>
>>>> Shouldn't that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
>>>> building new wind farms?
>>

>>> Shouldn't that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
>>
>>> It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.
>>
>> And that is a completely insane thing to do, tax everyone, pump that
>> money thru the bureaucracy and staight back to precisely the same
>> people that it came from in the first place.
>>
>> Only advantage is that in theory it forces people to have CFL light
>> bulbs which they would otherwise not bother with and might see some use
>> them given they are 'free'
>>
>> We were never actually stupid enough to have a green tax and our
>> electricity suppliers did hand out free CFL light bulbs. I ony ever
>> used a couple of the dozens I got given.
>
> There are probably thousands of CFL's in their original boxes stored in
> cupboards in houses in the UK that have NEVER been used!

I have some but it's because the electric company sent out LED
replacements before the original batch of CFSs burned out.

[Rod Speed]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:48:42 +1100, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 18/03/2023 19:56, Rod Speed wrote:
>> alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>
>>>> Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds
>>>> to read.
>>
>>> Where I live it was more like once every two years.
>>
>>> Knock on the door
>> Our meter boxes are all on an outside wall of the house.
>>
>
> In the UK there is a mix, around my way outside for most newer
> properties or often when houses have been converted to flats.
> Along my road most houses have their electricity and gas meter inside
> the house with no external meter box.
>
> Smart meters are not compulsory and many people have refused the offer
> to have them fitted. There has been quite a lot of adverse publicity
> recently surrounding smart meters. With energy prices doubling many
> hundreds of thousands are struggling paying for their energy. The energy
> companies have been programming smart meters to become pre-payment
> meters overnight for these people. This is not just more inconvenient
> but a more expensive way of pay for energy - although the price
> difference compared to us who pay by direct debit will end in July this
> year.

> There is also a mix of metered and un-metered water.

Mine was metered but the council, the operation who
supplys our water didnt bother to read the meters
essentially because the cost of the meter readers wasnt
warranted. But then the state govt forced them to read
the meters, essentially to discourage wasting water.

[Rod Speed]

Most smartmeters use the cellphone networks.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 19 Mar 2023 00:48:42 +0000, alan_m

<ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18/03/2023 19:56, Rod Speed wrote:
>> alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>
>>>> Ours are read 4 times a year and it takes a lot more than 30 seconds
>>>> to read.
>>
>>> Where I live it was more like once every two years.
>>
>>> Knock on the door
>>
>> Our meter boxes are all on an outside wall of the house.
>>
>
>In the UK there is a mix, around my way outside for most newer
>properties or often when houses have been converted to flats.
>Along my road most houses have their electricity and gas meter inside
>the house with no external meter box.
>
>Smart meters are not compulsory and many people have refused the offer
>to have them fitted. There has been quite a lot of adverse publicity
>recently surrounding smart meters. With energy prices doubling many

There was, a few years ago, also a lot ofadverse publicity, but iirc it
was nonsense about radiation (even though the transmission is only for a
few seconds once a month, far less than loads of other things.) So in
many or all places they made smart meters optional but if you didnt'
get one, they charge extra, to pay for the guy to come and read the
meter. I don't rmemeber any percentages.

Otherwise, billing and payment is the same in any given area. Maybe it
varies in different parts of the country but I can't imagine how.

[rbowman]

I don't think the meter is smart. It's definitely not digital.

[SteveW]

On 19/03/2023 00:48, alan_m wrote:

<Snip>

> Smart meters are not compulsory and many people have refused the offer
> to have them fitted. There has been quite a lot of adverse publicity
> recently surrounding smart meters. With energy prices doubling many
> hundreds of thousands are struggling paying for their energy. The energy
> companies have been programming smart meters to become pre-payment
> meters overnight for these people.  This is not just more inconvenient
> but a more expensive way of pay for energy - although the price
> difference compared to us who pay by direct debit will end in July this
> year.

That still won't end the problem of those on pre-payment meters having
to meet their peak (winter) costs up-front, while those of us on monthly
Direct Debits can average the cost out over the whole year.

[SteveW]

On 19/03/2023 00:13, alan_m wrote:
> On 18/03/2023 23:19, micky wrote:
>
>>
>> It take a minute to cut the lead-sealed metal strip that holds on the
>> old meter, a minute to take off the 10" metal ring that holds the meter
>> to the base, a minute to pull the meter (10 seconds, really), 2 minutes
>> to take a new meter out of its box, remove the plastic covers to the 3
>> big tabs, and insert the meter into the base, a minute to replace the
>> ring, and a minute to attach a new lead band.   That's 7 minutes.
>
> My electric smart meter was installed with new tails and an isolation
> switch. On the same visit a smart gas meter was installed with the
> necessary purging and gas pressure/leak safety checks and the additional
> checks to ensure all gas appliances were working satisfactory afterwards.

Mine had new tails too, despite their being nothing wrong with the old
ones. When the previous dumb meter was changed the previous year, they
added blue and brown identifiers to the ends of the existing grey
sheathed cables. Apparently that is no longer good enough and when they
later changed it to a Smart-meter, they had to change them to new blue
and brown sheathed cables.

My suppliers doesn't arrange to fit an isolator either - that's an extra
£130 if you want one!!!

[Peeler]

On 19 Mar 2023 03:08:27 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I have some but it's because the electric company sent out LED
> replacements before the original batch of CFSs burned out.

HIGHLY interesting! Just like everything about you and your grand
personality, Trumptard. LOL

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:28:23 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 89-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[Peeler]

On 19 Mar 2023 02:53:57 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> My electric bill varies monthly

Thrilling information about you again. People can't seem to get enough info
about your life! <BG>

--
Yet more of the so very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"My family loaded me into a '51 Chevy and drove from NY to Seattle and
back in '52. I'm alive. The Chevy had a painted steel dashboard with two
little hand prints worn down to the primer because I liked to stand up
and lean on it to see where we were going."
MID: <j2kuc1...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 14:29:12 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

"Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[alan_m]

On 19/03/2023 08:43, SteveW wrote:

>
> Mine had new tails too, despite their being nothing wrong with the old
> ones. When the previous dumb meter was changed the previous year, they
> added blue and brown identifiers to the ends of the existing grey
> sheathed cables. Apparently that is no longer good enough and when they
> later changed it to a Smart-meter, they had to change them to new blue
> and brown sheathed cables.
>
> My suppliers doesn't arrange to fit an isolator either - that's an extra
> £130 if you want one!!!
>

Zero extra cost to me for fitting the switch.

[Peeler]

On 19 Mar 2023 05:58:40 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I don't think

I know! It's your mouth who has a life of its own and just keep blathering
away all by itself, while you keep listening to yourself talking, full of
admiration. LOL

--
More of the pathological senile gossip's sick shit squeezed out of his sick
head:
"Skunk probably tastes like chicken. I've never gotten that comparison,
most famously with Chicken of the Sea. Tuna is a fish and tastes like a
fish. I will admit I've had chicken that tasted like fish. I don't think I
want to know what they were feeding it."
MID: <k44t5l...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 11:34:28 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

R Souls addressing the senile Australian cretin's "personalized" idiotic
spelling:
"Learn to spell, imbecile. And while you're about it learn to mind your
own business as well."
MID: <eohtkhl27bo4osjlu...@4ax.com>

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 14:24:36 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID: <g4t0jt...@mid.individual.net>

[alan_m]

It will not end the problem with the ongoing debt either as pre-payment
customers may have the same tariffs for 1kWh after July but the pre
payment will also need to cover x% of the ongoing debt.

[alan_m]

On 19/03/2023 03:37, micky wrote:

> There was, a few years ago, also a lot ofadverse publicity, but iirc it
> was nonsense about radiation (even though the transmission is only for a
> few seconds once a month, far less than loads of other things.)

You just need to point out that most peoples Wi-fi will operate at the
dangerous 5GHz.

The 5G mobile phone (cell phone) masts causing Covid. Here in the UK the
government took the opportunity to insert a tracking device under the
skin with every Covid vaccination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du8yQeQdMBk