how to remove ceiling junction box from below?

[Joseph O'Brien]

I have read several articles online about installing a ceiling fan in
place of an existing light. Seems like a straightforward job.

However, the first thing I need to do is replace the existing plastic
j-box with a metal one rated for ceiling fans. Seems simple enough,
except for one thing: how am I supposed to get the original box out of
the ceiling?!

Since I don't have access to the box from an attic, I can't tell from
below how the box is mounted. I assume it's nailed into the joists,
but this is an old, old home, and nothing about it is standard. Is
there any trick to removing the old box? I guess I could cut a larger
hole in the drywall and patch it up when finished, but I would prefer
not to do that if a less-messy option is available. I'm also not
opposed to taking a sawzall around the outer perimeter of the box
(being careful not to cut the wire), but I would prefer not to do that
as well.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.
Joseph

[Speedy Jim]

Joseph O'Brien wrote:

Plastic box? Cut the plastic or swiss-cheese it with a drill.

If you must cut out a metal brace use the finest tooth Sawzall blade.

[RBM]

There are a number of types of plastic ceiling boxes. If there are visible
screws or rivets inside the box, unscrew them or drill them out. This should
allow the box to drop. Then you will be able to see the metal bracket and
cut it with a sawzall. If there are no visible screws or rivets inside the
box, it is probably attached to the side of the beam via captive nails. This
type of box can be removed by using the butt of a hammer or similar, and
punching it up into the ceiling until the nails pull out. Then remove the
cable from the box and slide the box out of the existing hole or discard it
inside the ceiling

"Joseph O'Brien" <obrie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1184441889....@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

[Joe]

Just grab any protruding part of the plastic with visegrips and
twist...repeat as needed until all the bits are on the floor. Total
elsapsed time about a minute. A journeyman can probably do it in 15
seconds. There aren't any clamps imvolved, so crunching the plastic
with the visegrips will free your wires.
Be creative in removing screws or nails and if the mounting board or
whatever is sound, use it for your Raco 7120 if you like plastic
(ugh!) or Raco 290x metal series if you prefer something stronger. HTH

Joe

[mm]

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 12:38:09 -0700, Joseph O'Brien
<obrie...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I have read several articles online about installing a ceiling fan in
>place of an existing light. Seems like a straightforward job.
>
>However, the first thing I need to do is replace the existing plastic
>j-box with a metal one rated for ceiling fans. Seems simple enough,
>except for one thing: how am I supposed to get the original box out of
>the ceiling?!

Have you picked out a fan yet? I haven't done this but what is the
size of the ceiling part of the fan compared to the current box in the
ceiling. Might it be bigger?

Remember that fans don't cool the air. They only give a breeze, or so.

[Joseph O'Brien]

On Jul 14, 6:16 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> graced us with words
of wisdom:

> Have you picked out a fan yet? I haven't done this but what is the
> size of the ceiling part of the fan compared to the current box in the
> ceiling. Might it be bigger?

> Remember that fans don't cool the air. They only give a breeze, or so.

Oh, wait, fans make a breeze? I thought it was mostly just for
decoration and hanging stuff.

Of course I know fans don't cool the air. That's what we have A/C for.

Joe, RBM, Speedy Jim, thanks for contributing. I hadn't actually
thought about manhandling the box out of the ceiling. I will try to
pound it out first, and if that doesn't work, I'll cut it out.

Thanks again.
Joseph.

[DerbyDad03]

On Jul 15, 12:02 am, Joseph O'Brien <obrien1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 14, 6:16 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> graced us with words
> of wisdom:
>
> > Have you picked out a fan yet? I haven't done this but what is the
> > size of the ceiling part of the fan compared to the current box in the
> > ceiling. Might it be bigger?
> > Remember that fans don't cool the air. They only give a breeze, or so.
>
> Oh, wait, fans make a breeze? I thought it was mostly just for
> decoration and hanging stuff.
>
> Of course I know fans don't cool the air. That's what we have A/C for.
>

-- Joe, RBM, Speedy Jim, thanks for contributing...
-- Joseph.

Hey mm, I think ya'll been dissed!

[mm]

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 21:19:22 -0700, DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net>
wrote:

Yeah, the guy's an insecure jerk. Anyone who wasn't would just have
been grateful that I tried to help him.

[Joseph O'Brien]

On Jul 15, 3:25 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 21:19:22 -0700, DerbyDad03 <teamarr...@eznet.net>

> been grateful that I tried to help him.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hmm. No, I wasn't dissing everyone. Joe, RBM, and Speedy Jim actually
gave me some helpful advice, for which I thanked them. I followed
their recommendations, and was able to remove the box fairly easily.
First, I beat it with a hammer until it bent up towards the ceiling.
Eventually, the box split (glad I didn't hang a fan from it), so from
there, it was a combination of cutting away the excess plastic and
pulling out the nails. Overall, it was a fairly easy job. Having never
seen one of the new installation boxes from above, though, I wasn't
sure how they were attached, but it all makes sense now.

MM, maybe I misinterpretted your answer, but I thought you were being
a smart alec with the "fans don't cool comment." Figured you were
jabbing at me for not knowing how to remove the box. Guess I was wrong
about that.

Sorry, and thanks.
Joseph.

[mm]

Even if that line had been smart-alecky, I gave you good advice in the
first paragraph. Later I looked at two pages of images and the images
did not allow direct comparsion, but at least a few fans seem to have
bigger ceiling things than most boxes.

> Figured you were
>jabbing at me for not knowing how to remove the box.

I was suggesting you could enlarge the hole if the fan would cover a
bigger hole.

More than once people here have seemed to expect to much from fans,
and someone hase commented on it, pointing out the very same thing
that fans don't cool the room, they actually add heat. I am dubious
of the value of ceiling fans compared to table fans and other things,
but I chose not to second-guess your judgement, which struck me as
more nearly rude, and only deal with facts.

>Guess I was wrong
>about that.

And I guess you're not a jerk.

>Sorry, and thanks.
>Joseph.

You're welcome. Everything is fine now.

[DerbyDad03]

---- Guess I was wrong about that.

-- And I guess you're not a jerk.

---- Sorry, and thanks. Joseph.

-- You're welcome. Everything is fine now.

Hey, you guys aren't gonna start kissing or anything are ya? (Not that
there's anything wrong with that.)

[TC]

replying to DerbyDad03, TC wrote:

> teamarrows wrote:
>
> ---- Guess I was wrong about that.
> -- And I guess you're not a jerk.
> ---- Sorry, and thanks. Joseph.
> -- You're welcome. Everything is fine now.
> Hey, you guys aren't gonna start kissing or anything are ya? (Not that
> there's anything wrong with that.)

So if I can tear the old one out, how do I get a new one in? The old one
has 2 screw holes on one side and standard 1 on other side.

I'm trying to mount a recessed light that has nothches to fit only 1 on
each side. so need to put a new box in.


--
posted from
http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/how-to-remove-ceiling-junction-box-from-below-234136-.htm
using HomeOwnersHub's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface
to home and garden related groups

[Metspitzer]

On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 15:44:01 +0000, TC
<caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:

>replying to DerbyDad03, TC wrote:
>> teamarrows wrote:
>>
>> ---- Guess I was wrong about that.
>> -- And I guess you're not a jerk.
>> ---- Sorry, and thanks. Joseph.
>> -- You're welcome. Everything is fine now.
>> Hey, you guys aren't gonna start kissing or anything are ya? (Not that
>> there's anything wrong with that.)
>
>
>
>So if I can tear the old one out, how do I get a new one in? The old one
>has 2 screw holes on one side and standard 1 on other side.
>
>I'm trying to mount a recessed light that has nothches to fit only 1 on
>each side. so need to put a new box in.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cut%20in%20ceiling%20box&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp

[Nate Nagel]

I'd just use an old-work ceiling fan box, myself, in case you ever want
to hang a fan in that room you don't have to go back in. Assuming of
course this is a wood framed house.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_73178-427-936_0__

Also, if there is no always hot wire in the box currently, you may want
to repull the cable from the switch, e.g. if it's 14/2WG repull with
14/3WG. You may need to bust the switch box out of the wall and replace
that with an old work box as well if you do that. I know that this is a
lot of work so if you know that you're never going to put a fan in that
room ignore me, but it is a nice option. I think it helped sell my last
house when I told the prospective buyers that two out of three bedrooms
were ready for ceiling fans.

For some reason only the last two posts are showing up on my news server
so I don't have context, what do you mean by "recessed light?" Maybe
you don't want a standard octagon box after all.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[tra...@optonline.net]

This is a little weird, since it appears from the dating that TC
replied to a post from DerbyDad from 6 years ago.

But, I agree with you Nate. If it's a box for a light fixture,
he can put in an old work box, but he needs to make sure he buys
one that is rated for use to hold a light fixture. The cheapest,
plastic ones with ears, I don't believe are rated for that use.

If he has any possible desire for a fan there, he could prepare
for that with a box rated for such use.

And I don't understand the reference to a recessed fixture either.
The recessed fixtures I've worked with did not use a separate
box. The connection box was part of the recessed fixture itself.

[denni...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 3:43:29 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> This is a little weird, since it appears from the dating that TC
> replied to a post from DerbyDad from 6 years ago.

TC is posting from the Moaners Hub. Nuff said about that.

On to the new box. Ceiling fans require SECURE mounting unless you want a giant sparking propeller to drop on your dining table during a family dinner.

There are special mounting kits available for ceiling fans that can be installed through the old box hole. It consists of an expanding bar with cleats on the end. You slip the bar up in the hole, turn it so it's flat to the ceiling and perpendicular to the joists, and unscrew it until the cleats are firmly seated in the joists.

Then, you hang the box from the bar.

[DerbyDad03]

My guess is that TC was searching for how to remove/install a junction box
and stumbled across the 2007 thread. You'll note the original thread was
about installing a fan box but TC wants to install a recessed light. Maybe
he didn't know (or care) that the original was 6 years old.

What's interesting is that GG groups shows the whole thread, but now that
I'm home and using NewsTap, the thread starts with TC's response.

If you click the link to HH, the whole thread is there.

[tra...@optonline.net]

What's even more interesting is that you don't need
a box for a recessed light. At least not the ones
I've worked with. The romex goes into the fixture
itself which has it's own little connection box.

And as another thing to consider, if I was putting
in a recessed light today, I'd likely go with an LED one. You can get them now for $25 - $30.

[TC]

replying to dennisgauge , TC wrote:


yes weird, the old post came up in a google search so just added on to it.
glad it worked.

Moaners Hub?

so, there was a flush mount light installed at location above sink. It
stopped working so I had to remove it and once it was out, liked the open
space look. So decided to look into a type of lighting that would be more
flush with the ceiling than standard globe lighting.

Came across a light at Home Depot that was in recessed/can lights section.
Designed so that base fits right into a round plastic box with notches to
accommodate the screw locations, but the box I still have in place has
different screw configurations. See photos.

Need to install a different style box, but concerned about taking the old
one out using methods stated in earlier posts. If I rip it out can I get a
new one back in its place? Maybe one with the side clamps would be ok.

Hope that helps clear things up, photos attached.
[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1t[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1u[/IMG]

[Nate Nagel]

I'd go with the high CRI Cree ones, which are a little more expensive,
but yes, comment is still valid. You can't really make the case for
economics re: using regular cans and twisty CFLs, but the LEDs have a
more professional appearance AND the quality of light is vastly superior.

[Tekkie®]

tra...@optonline.net posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

> What's even more interesting is that you don't need
> a box for a recessed light. At least not the ones
> I've worked with. The romex goes into the fixture
> itself which has it's own little connection box.
>
> And as another thing to consider, if I was putting
> in a recessed light today, I'd likely go with an LED one. You can get them now for $25 - $30.
>

If he's using a *recessed* light he better get the
one rated properly for the placement IE:
insulation.

--
Tekkie

[tra...@optonline.net]

Another good reason to use LEDs, they are rated
for direct contact. Also, if you have a cathedral
ceiling or otherwise limited space, the LED leave
room for a decent amount of insulation above the
fixture. All of the ones I've seen are relatively
airtight too and some of them meet the industry
spec for being airtight. Less energy for the light,
less air loss, more insulation.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:44:01 PM UTC-4, TC wrote:
> replying to dennisgauge , TC wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> yes weird, the old post came up in a google search so just added on to it.
>
> glad it worked.
>
>
>
> Moaners Hub?
>
>
>
> so, there was a flush mount light installed at location above sink. It
>
> stopped working so I had to remove it and once it was out, liked the open
>
> space look. So decided to look into a type of lighting that would be more
>
> flush with the ceiling than standard globe lighting.
>
>
>
> Came across a light at Home Depot that was in recessed/can lights section.
>
> Designed so that base fits right into a round plastic box with notches to
>
> accommodate the screw locations, but the box I still have in place has
>
> different screw configurations. See photos.
>
>

Those boxes both seem to have holes in the same
places to me. I've yet to come across a light
fixture that didn't work with the screw holes
in existing boxes and that existing box you
have doesn't look unusual to me.

I still don't understand how a recessed light
can just attach to a box like that. How can it
be recessed? You have a link to the product?

And for sure, you're not going to get that
new side nail box that you posted in without
opening up the ceiling. They make old work
boxes that have ears or expansion widgets on
the side so they can go into a whole in the
ceiling about the size you have. But I think
until we see what it is that you want to install,
and better yet the instructions, we're just
shooting in the dark.

>
> Need to install a different style box, but concerned about taking the old
>
> one out using methods stated in earlier posts. If I rip it out can I get a
>
> new one back in its place? Maybe one with the side clamps would be ok.
>

I think the likelihood of getting that old box out
without screwing up the ceiling is small. And if you're going to screw the ceiling, might as well just open up a section of drywall. Especially if it's just it's own small 2' x 4' section over a sink
and not the main ceiling.

[Nate Nagel]

Every time I've had to take a box out, it seems that it's been in a wall
or ceiling with a comb/sand finish or something like that. So I've
become rather good at knocking boxes out without disturbing the wall...

[TC]

replying to Nate Nagel , TC wrote:

To those of you responding with helpful advice, here is pic of light and
description from Home Depot site. It is designed to slip inside the box
with the 2 screw posts pointing in.

\"The Disk Light can be installed in an existing recessed can or wherever
a 4 in. junction box is installed - making it extremely versatile for both
retro-fit and new installation.\"

The light is new from Home Depot. I may just try to bang out the old box.

Thanks for the help all. Oh and Derby Daddy, do you post any useful advice
or just read posts and provide worthless commentary?

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1v[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1w[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1x[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1y[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1z[/IMG]

[N8N]

OK first of all why won't the light fit on your old box? It looks like a standard plastic ceiling box - maybe attached the same way as the loose box you posted a pic of, so removing it might involve breaking it apart and/or using a hacksaw unless you just give up and bust up the drywall. Second, it'll be much easier to use either an 'old work box' or a metal box with a separate hanger bar if you do replace it, although I don't see the need...

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Monday, October 14, 2013 11:53:08 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
> OK first of all why won't the light fit on your old box? It looks like a standard plastic ceiling box

I asked that question a week ago. He said something about

the holes not being in the right place. I said:

"Those boxes both seem to have holes in the same
places to me. I've yet to come across a light
fixture that didn't work with the screw holes
in existing boxes and that existing box you
have doesn't look unusual to me.

It's an interesting LED light that he's found. I've
never seen one like that. They call it recessed, but
it actually sticks out 2", but it does attach to a
4" ceiling box.

It think this is it on HD. If not, it's the same type.
If link doesn't work, you can search for disk light.


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-6-in-Soft-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-CE-JB6-650L-27K-E26/203886372#.Ul1ExEvD9D8

[=]

<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:67a51938-28d2-4285...@googlegroups.com...

Take a look at: http://www.lsgc.com/fixtures/glimpse/ Is this what you're
talking about? If so, it's an award-winning product from the 2012 Lighting
for Tomorrow Competition ( www.lightingfortomorrow.com ). Nice idea to
make it screw onto a J-Box and it looks better than a bare 40 or 60-watt
bulb.

Tomsic

[DerbyDad03]

TC <caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:
> replying to Nate Nagel , TC wrote:
>
> To those of you responding with helpful advice, here is pic of light and
> description from Home Depot site. It is designed to slip inside the box
> with the 2 screw posts pointing in.
>
> \"The Disk Light can be installed in an existing recessed can or wherever
> a 4 in. junction box is installed - making it extremely versatile for both
> retro-fit and new installation.\"
>
> The light is new from Home Depot. I may just try to bang out the old box.
>
> Thanks for the help all. Oh and Derby Daddy, do you post any useful advice
> or just read posts and provide worthless commentary?
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1v[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1w[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1x[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1y[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/1z[/IMG]
>

What the heck is your problem?

You replied to a post I made 6 years ago. When someone brought that up, I
merely mentioned that you were probably searching for information and came
across a old thread. What’s your problem with that?

[TC]

replying to N8N , TC wrote:

> trader4 wrote:
>
> I asked that question a week ago. He said something about
> the holes not being in the right place.

It however does not fit the box I have installed now (notice difference in
screw placements).

that is what prompted the question about difficulty of removing the
existing one and installing a new one in its place.

yes, that is the same light from HD. Thanks for the link to lsgc.com.

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/20[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/21[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/22[/IMG]

[TC]

replying to DerbyDad03 , TC wrote:

> teamarrows wrote:
>
> What the heck is your problem?
> You replied to a post I made 6 years ago. When someone brought that up, I
> merely mentioned that you were probably searching for information and came
> across a old thread. What’s your problem with that?

you come across as condescending. leave it at that.

[tra...@optonline.net]

I didn't see anything you did that was wrong, either.
If he's that sensitive, wait until he gets replies from
some of the other folks around here.

[Nate Nagel]

On 10/16/2013 11:44 AM, TC wrote:
> replying to N8N , TC wrote:
>> trader4 wrote:
>>
>> I asked that question a week ago. He said something about the holes
>> not being in the right place.
>
>
>
> It however does not fit the box I have installed now (notice difference in
> screw placements).
>
> that is what prompted the question about difficulty of removing the
> existing one and installing a new one in its place.
>
> yes, that is the same light from HD. Thanks for the link to lsgc.com.
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/20[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/21[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/22[/IMG]
>
>

Can you post a picture of the light? I'm still not understanding how it
couldn't fit, all the pics you've posted are of pretty standard ceiling
boxes and a ceiling light intended for mounting on a box ought to fit
all of them.

[TC]

replying to Nate Nagel , TC wrote:

> njnagel wrote:
>
> Can you post a picture of the light? I'm still not understanding how it
> couldn't fit, all the pics you've posted are of pretty standard ceiling
> boxes and a ceiling light intended for mounting on a box ought to fit
> all of them.
> nate
> --
> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
> http://members.cox.net/njnagel

the light slips into the box, has 2 notches on sides, both the same. the
box with the different hole placements does not fit into notches on light.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:22:00 -0400, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
wrote:

I am just stepping into the conversation now - without seeing all the
history - but lamp canopies do NOT fit the cover holes of round or
octagon ceiling boxes. That is what the T-Bar (or cross bar) is for.
The bar fastens to the box. With or without a fixture tube, the
fixture fastens to the cross bar, and the canopy, if it screws to the
mounting, is screwed to the cross bar - NOT to the box.

[tra...@optonline.net]

He posted a pic of the light already, but it's just a pic
of the outside of the light. What he should post is the
link to the light at HD, the install instructions,
something that shows why the mount for the new light
won't fit the current box.
I went to HD website and they have
a couple that look like it. It's not really recessed, it
sticks out 2" and it's LED. So that apparently gives
them enough room for the power supply. That explains
how a "recessed" light can go on a box like that. It's
not really recessed. The one I saw
at HD online didn't have install instructions or anything that
showed the back of the light, how it connects, etc.

In the beginning, he posted a pic of the current box and
his new proposed box. He keeps saying the holes are
in different locations, but from the pic, they seemed
the same to me. The other obvious problem is his
proposed box is the nail in style and we all know that
isnt' going in, unless he tears open the drywall. He
needs an old work box that's rated to hold a fixture.
That assumes he can get the existing box out without
opening the drywall.

But before we get to all that, I'm with you. That old
box is plastic, which means it's not some strange 100
year old box. I've yet to see a box that looked like
that which would not connect to a common light fixture.

[Nate Nagel]

I poked around the HD site, couldn't find anything. Looks like a
Cree-made product (good, probably high CRI) but I also couldn't find a
picture of anything other than the room side of the light, or any
installation instructions.

> I went to HD website and they have
> a couple that look like it. It's not really recessed, it
> sticks out 2" and it's LED. So that apparently gives
> them enough room for the power supply. That explains
> how a "recessed" light can go on a box like that. It's
> not really recessed. The one I saw
> at HD online didn't have install instructions or anything that
> showed the back of the light, how it connects, etc.
>
> In the beginning, he posted a pic of the current box and
> his new proposed box. He keeps saying the holes are
> in different locations, but from the pic, they seemed
> the same to me. The other obvious problem is his
> proposed box is the nail in style and we all know that
> isnt' going in, unless he tears open the drywall. He
> needs an old work box that's rated to hold a fixture.
> That assumes he can get the existing box out without
> opening the drywall.
>
> But before we get to all that, I'm with you. That old
> box is plastic, which means it's not some strange 100
> year old box. I've yet to see a box that looked like
> that which would not connect to a common light fixture.
>

Worst case scenario, since after my original post suggesting a fan box,
he's clarified that this is over a kitchen sink, so no need for a fan
rated box. At this point I would bust out the old box if it really
won't work, and go buy a metal octagon box and a steel hanger (e.g. Raco
8325 - that's the NM cable version, if your house uses armored cable,
you'd need a box with different cable clamps but it would look simlar)
and install that through the 4" hole in the drywall. It'll be a pain in
the ass, as it will require screwing the hanger to the joists by hand
with a plain old screwdriver through a really small hole, but if that
doesn't work, the light really doesn't fit a "standard ceiling box."

I'd still like a picture of *why* it won't work, though, because a) I'm
just naturally curious and b) understanding it more fully might help
come up with a more creative solution.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Why does he need to do that instead of just using one of
the old work boxes that are rated for holding fixtures up
to a few pounds? It just goes in the hole and has tabs that
you then expand out by turning screws to hold it in. That
of course assumes the existing hole isn't too big to fit
said new box.

I've never tried to get an old box out like that, but
if it's nailed in there good, I would think it would be
a bitch to do without damaging the drywall. And if you
can't use an old work box, then it's gonna be a bitch
getting the new one in.
Which is why I said if it was in it's own
separate little ceiling space above the sink, like in a
lot of houses that I've seen, another option
is to just take out a piece of drywall. It's not such a
big deal.
If it's part of the main ceiling, then it becomes more
involved, ie you'd have to paint the whole ceiling, etc.

I think he took down the original pics he put up.
But he had a pic of the old box and the proposed new
box, which was the nail in type. He said that you
can see that the holes are in different locations. I
looked at the two pics and they both seemed to have
holes in the same places, like the boxes we're all
familiar with. And he never gave any more specifics
other than that. Even if the holes are in different
spots, one would think you could make an interposer
if you will, eg a strip of metal or something that
could adapt it. I wonder if this could be a USA/CA
thing, metric issue of something?

IDK, but like I said, I've never seen a modern plastic
box like that where it would not fit to a new
standard light fixture. If he could take some pics
of how it mounts, the backside, bracket, whatever
and tell us exactly what doesn't line up with what
maybe there is a solution.

[DerbyDad03]

TC <caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:
> replying to DerbyDad03 , TC wrote:
>> teamarrows wrote:
>>
>> What the heck is your problem?
>> You replied to a post I made 6 years ago. When someone brought that up, I
>> merely mentioned that you were probably searching for information and came
>> across a old thread. What’s your problem with that?
>
>
>
> you come across as condescending. leave it at that.

That's funny. You took my comment completely wrong, insulted me and called
me out directly. Then when I point out your error, you once again comment
on my posts and suggest (demand?) I "leave it at that".

Look, you misunderstood a post that was nothing more than an explanation as
to why someone would reply to a 6 year old thread. What you should have
taken as being in defense of you, you took as condescending. That, my
friend, is on you, not me.

Feel free to leave it at that...or not.

[TC]

you don't give any advice, just commentary. why not find another place to
do that.

[TC]

to help clarify, there is only one picture available on Home Depot
website, none of the back of light. here is a pic of the 2 boxes in
question. the one the left has the design the light is can fit into.
yellow represents the base of the light.

the box I have installed is the one on the right. notice the difference in
hole alignment. this is the best I can do to identify problem. need to
replace one box with the other to make it work.

thanks for helping with suggestions.

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/23[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/24[/IMG]

[Nate Nagel]

Ah, I get it now. some of the working bits of the fixture actually
protrude into the box, and it's poorly designed because if it were
designed right it'd have clearance for that box.

Can you cut part of the light away to make it work? That'd be easiest.
(I can't tell without seeing pics of the back of the light.) NB: that
will of course void the UL listing and a kitten will die with every
light you so modify. YHBW.

Next suggestion, if that won't work. You should be able to tell which
side of the box the stud is on. If you can't, try probing around the
edge of it with a piece of stiff wire; that should solve it.

Then, take a sawzall and cut the box in two places near where the nail
tabs are located. BE VERY CAREFUL not to get near any cables. If you
cut through the jacket of any cables you just made yourself a LOT more
work. Turn the power off to that fixture before you do it, for obvious
reasons. That should weaken the box enough that if you set a piece of
dowel, socket extension, something against the back of the box and smack
it with a hammer, it should break apart and go up into the ceiling,
where you can retrieve the pieces and then remove the nail on bits from
the stud. Sawzall will help here too.

To install a new box, either use a metal box with a bar hanger as I
suggested in a previous post (you install the bar hanger separately from
the box, is how this can work with only a 4" access hole.) You will
need a little bit of wire to do this as if you use a metal box code
requires that you attach the ground wire to the box. If it is long
enough you might be able to wrap it around the box's ground screw and
still have enough left to wire nut to the fixture's ground wire.
Alternately, if the drywall is solid and your new light is not too
heavy, they make blue plastic "old work" boxes with tabs that clamp the
box to the drywall itself; I think someone suggested that as well. Like
this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-18-cu-in-Round-Old-Work-Ceiling-Box-B618RR/100404072#.UmL0dEmzXWg

Note in the description it says "not intended for fixture support in
ceilings" - use discretion here if the light is too heavy to be
supported only by drywall nor not. Personally I would be more
comfortable with the metal box/bar hanger solution.

good luck

[TC]

replying to Nate Nagel , TC wrote:
> njnagel wrote:
>
>

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-18-cu-in-Round-Old-Work-Ceiling-Box-B618RR/100404072#.UmL0dEmzXWg
> Note in the description it says "not intended for fixture support in
> ceilings" - use discretion here if the light is too heavy to be
> supported only by drywall nor not. Personally I would be more
> comfortable with the metal box/bar hanger solution.
> good luck
> nate

thanks Nate, you have been a huge help.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Yes, I see the problem now too. Really dumb design they
made to not have allowed it to work with either box. The
fact that it puts part of the fixture into the box raises
another interesting question. Despite what they claim,
can this be installed in a regular ceiling box and be
code compliant? There are box fill rules and when you
start using the box for the fixture itself, it's going
to use up some of that volume, especially when per the
new drawings, the fixture consumes the entire surface
area of the box dimensions. If it extends much at
all into the box, I would think an extra deep box might
be required to be code compliant. So, since he needs
to install a new box, I'd get a deep one, if possible.

>
> Can you cut part of the light away to make it work? That'd be easiest.
>
> (I can't tell without seeing pics of the back of the light.) NB: that
>
> will of course void the UL listing and a kitten will die with every
>
> light you so modify. YHBW.
>
>
>
> Next suggestion, if that won't work. You should be able to tell which
>
> side of the box the stud is on. If you can't, try probing around the
>
> edge of it with a piece of stiff wire; that should solve it.
>
>
>
> Then, take a sawzall and cut the box in two places near where the nail
>
> tabs are located. BE VERY CAREFUL not to get near any cables. If you
>
> cut through the jacket of any cables you just made yourself a LOT more
>
> work.

Yes, and just so he understands, if he does cut the cable,
then he has two choices. Put another ceiling box nearby
that the undamaged cable can reach to, then run
a new cable from there to where the light is. That leaves you
with a new junction box you have to cover with a blank plate,
because it has to be accessible and it doesn't look pretty.
Whether that is even possible,
depends on how the cable that you can't see runs. If for example
it comes from above, straight down into the old box, then
you don't have means to do the above. If it runs across sideways,
then you probably can, assuming you can free up enough cable.
And that could easily involve opening the drywall.

Option two is to trace the cable back to somewhere that a new
junction box could be added and remain accessible or where it's
connected in
an existing box somewhere. Adding a new box like that could
be fairly easy if there is accessible attic above. If there
is a second story above, etc, then it's usually a nightmare
and you're back to option 1.

So, before I did try to cut out the old box, I'd be 99%
sure I'm not going to damage the cable. Which, may be a good
reason to consider just opening up the drywall to do
the work that way. As I said
before, it's going over a sink, and many times that area is
it's only it's own little section of drywall, so you don't
have to then paint the whole kitchen ceiling, etc. The tradeoff
is that with that approach, there is guaranteed more work involved
than if he uses the cut it/tear it out method and it comes
out fairly easy.

Personally, the first thing I'd do is do a search
to find out if there is another similar LED light
available that doesn't have this mounting problem.
It's not an inherent problem that would be common
to all lights, just this one did a bad design. Or
perhaps consider other lighting options. It's a
neat light, but it does have one big drawback....

Turn the power off to that fixture before you do it, for obvious
>
> reasons. That should weaken the box enough that if you set a piece of
>
> dowel, socket extension, something against the back of the box and smack
>
> it with a hammer, it should break apart and go up into the ceiling,
>
> where you can retrieve the pieces and then remove the nail on bits from
>
> the stud. Sawzall will help here too.
>
>
>
> To install a new box, either use a metal box with a bar hanger as I
>
> suggested in a previous post (you install the bar hanger separately from
>
> the box, is how this can work with only a 4" access hole.) You will
>
> need a little bit of wire to do this as if you use a metal box code
>
> requires that you attach the ground wire to the box. If it is long
>
> enough you might be able to wrap it around the box's ground screw and
>
> still have enough left to wire nut to the fixture's ground wire.
>
> Alternately, if the drywall is solid and your new light is not too
>
> heavy, they make blue plastic "old work" boxes with tabs that clamp the
>
> box to the drywall itself; I think someone suggested that as well. Like
>
> this:
>
>
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-18-cu-in-Round-Old-Work-Ceiling-Box-B618RR/100404072#.UmL0dEmzXWg
>
>
>
> Note in the description it says "not intended for fixture support in
>
> ceilings" - use discretion here if the light is too heavy to be
>
> supported only by drywall nor not. Personally I would be more
>
> comfortable with the metal box/bar hanger solution.
>

It's an LED light so it only weighs a couple pounds, if
that. As I said before, there are old work boxes similar
to the type you're talking about that are rated for holding
fixtures up to some number of pounds, eg 3, 5 etc.
Instead of the swing out ears they have metal side pieces
that expand outwards. I wouldn't use them for hanging
anything of much substance, but they are perfect for that
small LED light.

[DerbyDad03]

TC <caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:
> replying to DerbyDad03 , TC wrote:
>> teamarrows wrote:
>>
>> That's funny. You took my comment completely wrong, insulted me and called
>> me out directly. Then when I point out your error, you once again comment
>> on my posts and suggest (demand?) I "leave it at that".
>> Look, you misunderstood a post that was nothing more than an explanation
> as
>> to why someone would reply to a 6 year old thread. What you should have
>> taken as being in defense of you, you took as condescending. That, my
>> friend, is on you, not me.
>> Feel free to leave it at that...or not.
>
>
>
> you don't give any advice, just commentary. why not find another place to
> do that.

So you read one post, misunderstand it completely and make an overall
assessment of my posting history.

Do some research.

[bud--]

Protruding into the box certainly sounds bizarre.

Far as I know there has not been a link to a HomeDepot product.
No information from the manufacturer.
No picture of the back of the light.
He found it in the "recessed/can lights section".
It looks like a trim for a recessed light.

My conclusion - it is a for a recessed light and is not intended to be
mounted on a box.

Further speculation - the OP knows it is not intended to be mounted on a
box.
Additional substantiation - the OP is from the homemoanershub.

Maybe use a BFH?

[tra...@optonline.net]

That I agree with. You have to wonder about box fill limits
and if it really can be installed in a std depth box.

>
> Far as I know there has not been a link to a HomeDepot product.
>
> No information from the manufacturer.
>
> No picture of the back of the light.
>
> He found it in the "recessed/can lights section".
>
> It looks like a trim for a recessed light.
>
>
>
> My conclusion - it is a for a recessed light and is not intended to be
>
> mounted on a box.
>
>

That was my initial impression too. But if you go to HD
and search, there is a "disk light" LED fixture and it
looks like the one he showing in the picture. It extends
down 2" below the ceiling and it says it is in fact
exactly what the OP says it is, ie an LED light fixture
that attaches to a ceiling box.
And they do call it a recessed light, though it really isn't

I haven't seen a trim piece that looks like that, certainly
it's not typical for an LED light trim piece, they fit
flat to the ceiling. And what good would it do for him
to be trying to mount a trim piece that has no light?

Did you see the last pics he posted. He drew an outline
of how the back of the fixture extends into the box and why
it won't work with some boxes. Why would a trim piece have an
outline that perfectly matches a ceiling box, or at least
some ceiling boxes?

If I were the OP, I'd be looking to see if there are similar
ones from other manufacturers that don't have this mounting
problem.



>

[bud--]

So why didn't the OP post a link to HD?
GIGO
The link may be
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-6-in-T91-Warm-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-DISCONTINUED-CED6-WW-120-WH/203338438

(discontinued)

I suspect that is what you found. And what a find - a link to
installation instructions.

> It extends
> down 2" below the ceiling and it says it is in fact
> exactly what the OP says it is, ie an LED light fixture
> that attaches to a ceiling box.
> And they do call it a recessed light, though it really isn't
> I haven't seen a trim piece that looks like that, certainly
> it's not typical for an LED light trim piece, they fit
> flat to the ceiling. And what good would it do for him
> to be trying to mount a trim piece that has no light?

Looking at the instructions, it is a trim for a recessed light can.
Compatible cans are listed. It must have the LED light included.

It is probably what Tomsic [=] linked to.

>
> Did you see the last pics he posted. He drew an outline
> of how the back of the fixture extends into the box and why
> it won't work with some boxes. Why would a trim piece have an
> outline that perfectly matches a ceiling box, or at least
> some ceiling boxes?

The manufacturer says it can be installed in a "Standard 4 inch J-box
(Min Height:2.25 inch)". From the OP's experience obviously not. And 4"
octagon boxes are "standard 4" J-boxes". What does 2.25" mean - depth of
box? depth needed by light in box?

As you pointed out twice above, box fill space for the wires is entirely
ignored in the installation instructions. IMHO the remaining usable
space in the box needs to be determined and has to be larger than the
calculated wire fill for the wires present. That is another reason the
fixture may not be usable. (Or there is always a BFH.)

>
> If I were the OP, I'd be looking to see if there are similar
> ones from other manufacturers that don't have this mounting
> problem.

I suggest the OP include adequate information when he asks for advice.
Like a link to the product and instructions.

[TC]

replying to bud-- , TC wrote:

> null wrote:
>
> So why didn't the OP post a link to HD?
> GIGO
> The link may be
>
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-6-in-T91-Warm-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-DISCONTINUED-CED6-WW-120-WH/203338438
> (discontinued)
> I suspect that is what you found. And what a find - a link to
> installation instructions.

> Looking at the instructions, it is a trim for a recessed light can.
> Compatible cans are listed. It must have the LED light included.
> It is probably what Tomsic [=] linked to.

> The manufacturer says it can be installed in a "Standard 4 inch J-box
> (Min Height:2.25 inch)". From the OP's experience obviously not. And 4"
> octagon boxes are "standard 4" J-boxes". What does 2.25" mean - depth of
> box? depth needed by light in box?
> As you pointed out twice above, box fill space for the wires is entirely
> ignored in the installation instructions. IMHO the remaining usable
> space in the box needs to be determined and has to be larger than the
> calculated wire fill for the wires present. That is another reason the
> fixture may not be usable. (Or there is always a BFH.)

> I suggest the OP include adequate information when he asks for advice.
> Like a link to the product and instructions.

the original question was about how to, or is it possible to remove box
and replace with another, that's all. The light fits in the box shown and
are all available at Home Depot.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Monday, October 21, 2013 1:48:55 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
> >> My conclusion - it is a for a recessed light and is not intended to be
>
> >> mounted on a box.
>
> >
>
> > That was my initial impression too. But if you go to HD
>
> > and search, there is a "disk light" LED fixture and it
>
> > looks like the one he showing in the picture.
>
>
>
> So why didn't the OP post a link to HD?

You'd have to ask the OP that question.

>
> GIGO
>
> The link may be
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-6-in-T91-Warm-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-DISCONTINUED-CED6-WW-120-WH/203338438
>
>
>
> (discontinued)
>
>
>
> I suspect that is what you found. And what a find - a link to
>
> installation instructions.
>
>

No, this is what I found and it's not discontinued:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-6-in-Soft-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-CE-JB6-650L-27K-E26/203886372?N=bvlwZ1z115g2#.UmboSUvD9D8

6 in. Soft White LED Disk Light For Recessed Can Lighting

Model # CE-JB6-650L-27K-E26

Internet # 203886372

The Commercial Electric 6 in. LED Disk Light by Cree makes it easy to upgrade your existing lighting to energy efficient LED technology. The Disk Light can be installed in an existing recessed can or wherever a 4 in. junction box is installed - making it extremely versatile for both retro-fit and new installation. The semi recessed lens gives the appearance of a higher end recessed fixture and is instant on and fully dimmable. The LED disk Light is perfect for kitchens, hallways, bathrooms, closets, laundry, porches and garage work rooms.


It does appear to be a similar product to what
you found. Again, it's not just a trim piece it clearly says
it will install into a 4" junction box. It doesn't have

installation instructions.



>
> > It extends
>
> > down 2" below the ceiling and it says it is in fact
>
> > exactly what the OP says it is, ie an LED light fixture
>
> > that attaches to a ceiling box.
>
> > And they do call it a recessed light, though it really isn't
>
> > I haven't seen a trim piece that looks like that, certainly
>
> > it's not typical for an LED light trim piece, they fit
>
> > flat to the ceiling. And what good would it do for him
>
> > to be trying to mount a trim piece that has no light?
>
>
>
> Looking at the instructions, it is a trim for a recessed light can.
>
> Compatible cans are listed. It must have the LED light included.
>

Good grief. Not only does the product description say it
can be used with a std 4" box, the installation instructions
from the link you just provided for the discontinued product
shows how to install it that way. It shows installation into
an exiting 5", 6" recessed fixture or a 4" box. Your choice.
Since it will install into a just a 4" box, it's a complete
light fixture, not just a trim piece.

And I would think most of them would be installed like the OP
is doing, into a box, rather than into an existing recessed
light fixture. That's because if you have an existing recessed
fixture, there are many other products available that fit
flat to the ceiling and look much better, ie like a real recessed
light.

>
> > Did you see the last pics he posted. He drew an outline
>

> > of how the back of the fixture maps into the box and why
>
> > it won't work with the box he has. Why would a trim piece have an

>
> > outline that perfectly matches a ceiling box, or at least
>
> > some ceiling boxes?
>
>
>
> The manufacturer says it can be installed in a "Standard 4 inch J-box
>
> (Min Height:2.25 inch)". From the OP's experience obviously not.

Did you look at the pics the OP posted of the old box and
a new box?
The two boxes are in fact just slightly different on the inside on
one side. The old box has what looks like a spot for another
screw next to the usual one. He even took the time to fill in with yellow
where the product fits and show what the fitment problem is.
The product he has apparently is shaped to exactly follow the
outline of the inside of the box, with just a little clearance
so with that extra screw spot there it hits.

And 4"
>
> octagon boxes are "standard 4" J-boxes". What does 2.25" mean - depth of
>
> box? depth needed by light in box?
>
>

I would assume it means the min depth of the box.

>
> As you pointed out twice above, box fill space for the wires is entirely
>
> ignored in the installation instructions. IMHO the remaining usable
>
> space in the box needs to be determined and has to be larger than the
>
> calculated wire fill for the wires present. That is another reason the
>
> fixture may not be usable. (Or there is always a BFH.)
>

Yes, the box fill is a good question. Nothing I've seen
shows how far into the box it goes. Presumably the OP has
one and if he comes back, he can tell us. Given that the
one he has closely follows the exact shape of the box, it's the
worst case for taking up space.

>
> >
>
> > If I were the OP, I'd be looking to see if there are similar
>
> > ones from other manufacturers that don't have this mounting
>
> > problem.
>
>
>
> I suggest the OP include adequate information when he asks for advice.
>
> Like a link to the product and instructions.

I agree, that would be a good idea. But on the other hand
you have to give him credit for posting several pictures
to better understand the problem.

[bud--]

On 10/22/2013 12:44 PM, TC wrote:
> replying to bud-- , TC wrote:
>> null wrote:
>>
>> So why didn't the OP post a link to HD? GIGO The link may be
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-6-in-T91-Warm-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-DISCONTINUED-CED6-WW-120-WH/203338438
>
>> (discontinued) I suspect that is what you found. And what a find - a
>> link to installation instructions. Looking at the instructions, it is
>> a trim for a recessed light can. Compatible cans are listed. It must
>> have the LED light included. It is probably what Tomsic [=] linked to.
>> The manufacturer says it can be installed in a "Standard 4 inch J-box
>> (Min Height:2.25 inch)". From the OP's experience obviously not. And
>> 4" octagon boxes are "standard 4" J-boxes". What does 2.25" mean -
>> depth of box? depth needed by light in box? As you pointed out twice
>> above, box fill space for the wires is entirely ignored in the
>> installation instructions. IMHO the remaining usable space in the box
>> needs to be determined and has to be larger than the calculated wire
>> fill for the wires present. That is another reason the fixture may not
>> be usable. (Or there is always a BFH.) I suggest the OP include
>> adequate information when he asks for advice. Like a link to the
>> product and instructions.
>
>
>
> the original question was about how to, or is it possible to remove box
> and replace with another, that's all. The light fits in the box shown and
> are all available at Home Depot.

I have never seen a light that requires much of the fixture to be inside
the mounting box. Apparently no one else here has either.

The link I found would have made it clear that is what is happening.
Trader's link doesn't have installation instructions, but they are
probably available from the manufacturer once you know the mfger &
model, in the link.

People here often come up with alternate solutions, which requires
information. Other boxes suggested (which are easier to install) may not
work with this fixture. The manufacturer's "standard 4" J-boxes" has at
least 2 problems (one of which you found).

The comments about wire fill, which the manufacturer ignores are
relevant in any case.

I think it is unlikely you can remove the existing box and install a
similar one (without the extra post) without damaging the ceiling.

I might try removing the extra post with something like a router first.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmmm,
Poor junction box is really taking a beating..., LOL!

[tra...@optonline.net]

Along those lines, using one of those rotozip saws might be
a good solution. On either the box of the light, depending
of course if you can tell if the portion of the light is just
plastic, ie that you won't damage some electrical component
behind it.