Battery for backup sump pump
Percival P. Cassidy
pump about six years ago seems to be about dead and in need of replacement.
We bought the "official" BW battery, which is not "maintenance free" but
has individual screw-in plugs for each cell. It was supplied dry and we
had to buy the sulfuric acid to go with it. The alleged advantages are
(1) it's not deteriorating while sitting on the dealer's shelf; (2) it
has provision for an electrolyte-level sensor to remind the user when it
needs topping up. But our charger/control unit must be an older model:
it looks different from the ones on the BW Web site, and it has neither
electrolyte-level sensor nor any place to connect one.
Any good reason to buy one of these "special" batteries (24EP6 or
30HDC140S) rather than an ordinary marine/starting battery from
Interstate or wherever?
Perce
ransley
6 years and it was probably basicly unused, it should still be good
www.batteryuniversity.com should get you some good info to know if
your charger killed it, which it might have.
terry
> On Dec 31, 6:57 pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The battery we bought to go with our "Basement Watchdog" backup sump
> > pump about six years ago seems to be about dead and in need of replacement.
>
> > We bought the "official" BW battery, which is not "maintenance free" but
> > has individual screw-in plugs for each cell. It was supplied dry and we
> > had to buy the sulfuric acid to go with it. The alleged advantages are
> > (1) it's not deteriorating while sitting on the dealer's shelf; (2) it
> > has provision for an electrolyte-level sensor to remind the user when it
> > needs topping up. But our charger/control unit must be an older model:
> > it looks different from the ones on the BW Web site, and it has neither
> > electrolyte-level sensor nor any place to connect one.
>
> > Any good reason to buy one of these "special" batteries (24EP6 or
> > 30HDC140S) rather than an ordinary marine/starting battery from
> > Interstate or wherever?
>
> > Perce
>
> your charger killed it, which it might have.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The following can kill lead acid batteries.
1) Overcharging. My grandfather used to overcharge to the point of
heavily gassing off the acid electrolyte and or boiling the cells.
2) Undercharging, or leaving uncharged for long periods. Cells need
either a short 'refresher' charge every so often. Or a carefully
controlled trickle charge, sometimes called a carefully adjusted
'float' voltage charge. Often used commercially for batteries that
must be instantly ready upon power failure. e.g. telephone systems.
3) Excessive heat. Batteries last much shorter time in hot conditions
than cool. However batteries that are very cold, e.g. car batteries in
winter, have less capacity than when same battery is at say 'room'
temperature.
4) Age, batteries plates can eventually sulphate and/or active
material drops off the plates and one or more cells lose capacity.
5) Physical damage; physical loss of of acid etc.
6) Misuse. e.g. short circuiting it, or taking too high a current, or
running battery absolutely 'flat' so that it takes many many hours to
recharge it. Cells deteriorate as in (4).
Percival P. Cassidy
>>> The battery we bought to go with our "Basement Watchdog" backup sump
>>> pump about six years ago seems to be about dead and in need of replacement.
>>>
>>> We bought the "official" BW battery, which is not "maintenance free" but
>>> has individual screw-in plugs for each cell. It was supplied dry and we
>>> had to buy the sulfuric acid to go with it. The alleged advantages are
>>> (1) it's not deteriorating while sitting on the dealer's shelf; (2) it
>>> has provision for an electrolyte-level sensor to remind the user when it
>>> needs topping up. But our charger/control unit must be an older model:
>>> it looks different from the ones on the BW Web site, and it has neither
>>> electrolyte-level sensor nor any place to connect one.
>>
>>> Any good reason to buy one of these "special" batteries (24EP6 or
>>> 30HDC140S) rather than an ordinary marine/starting battery from
>>> Interstate or wherever?
>> 6 years and it was probably basically unused, it should still be goodwww.batteryuniversity.comshould get you some good info to know if
>> your charger killed it, which it might have.- Hide quoted text -
The manufacturer says battery life is 5 to 7 years.
> The following can kill lead acid batteries.
>
> 1) Overcharging. My grandfather used to overcharge to the point of
> heavily gassing off the acid electrolyte and or boiling the cells.
The wall-wart charger that came with the sump pump would be incapable of
overcharging the battery -- if by overcharging you mean using too high a
charging current.
> 2) Undercharging, or leaving uncharged for long periods. Cells need
> either a short 'refresher' charge every so often. Or a carefully
> controlled trickle charge, sometimes called a carefully adjusted
> 'float' voltage charge. Often used commercially for batteries that
> must be instantly ready upon power failure. e.g. telephone systems.
The controller is supposed to keep the battery topped up: the indicator
LEDs would switch between "charged" and "charging" from time to time.
> 3) Excessive heat. Batteries last much shorter time in hot conditions
> than cool. However batteries that are very cold, e.g. car batteries in
> winter, have less capacity than when same battery is at say 'room'
> temperature.
The sump pump and its battery are in an unheated (but not very well
insulated from a heated area) laundry room.
> 4) Age, batteries plates can eventually sulphate and/or active
> material drops off the plates and one or more cells lose capacity.
The battery is now about six years old.
> 5) Physical damage; physical loss of of acid etc.
Has never suffered such damage.
> 6) Misuse. e.g. short circuiting it, or taking too high a current, or
> running battery absolutely 'flat' so that it takes many many hours to
> recharge it. Cells deteriorate as in (4).
Has never been run flat, nor short circuited, nor had any current drawn
from it except for the occasional test (lasting only a minute or so) to
make sure everything is working OK.
The abuse it probably has suffered is not having had deionized water
added often enough. I don't recall whether that is likely to result in
sulfated plates.
For the last few hours I have had it connected to a "Smart charger" that
says it is "full" and will occasionally switch to "float" mode at 1A or
less, although the hydrometer says it is seriously discharged: SG=1150
or less, depending on the cell.
This charger has a "Recondition" mode that is supposed to deal with
sulfated plates. I may try that tomorrow.
Perce
cl...@snyder.on.ca
You do NOT want a Marine Starting battery - for sure.
You want a good "deep Cycle" battery - from Interstate or whoever. I'd
sure consider an Optima YelloW Top or a Trojan T105 or something along
that line.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
An unregulated wall wart CAN kill batteries from overcharging because
they can continue to try to put a charge into the battery long after
it is charged if line voltage is higher than the wart was designed
around. The float voltage gets too high, the battery is damaged (over
time)
If the plates are exposed to air they are damaged - keeping the
battery watered is critical, and the crappy charger supplied with the
un it makes battery maintenance doubly important.
Also, the battery should be cycled part way every once in a while for
best battery life (draw down 1/4 capacity every 6 months or so)
>
>For the last few hours I have had it connected to a "Smart charger" that
>says it is "full" and will occasionally switch to "float" mode at 1A or
>less, although the hydrometer says it is seriously discharged: SG=1150
>or less, depending on the cell.
>
>This charger has a "Recondition" mode that is supposed to deal with
>sulfated plates. I may try that tomorrow.
>
>Perce
Good luck - I think it's too late for that battery, but use the "smart
charger" on the new one.
I'd stroingly lean to an AGM, starved electrolyte type deep cycle
replacement battery.
Stormin Mormon
> (24EP6 or
> 30HDC140S) rather than an ordinary marine/starting battery
> from
> Interstate or wherever?
CY: There are several different types of lead acid
batteries. Starting batteries are used in cars, and used to,
you guessed it. Start the engine. They do FAST loads, for a
brief period of time, and then recharge. Trolling batteries
are used to provide gentle loads, for a longer period of
time. Trolling batteries can be discharged more deeply than
starting. For a sump backup, a trolling battery is the way
to go. Walmart has them, in 12 volt. The larger one is $15
or so more, and worth the extra money.
> 6 years and it was probably basically unused, it should
> still be good www.batteryuniversity.com
should get you some good info to know if
> your charger killed it, which it might have.
CY: I had a marine battery, which I foolishly killed by use
of a harbor Freight float charger.
>> The following can kill lead acid batteries.
>>
>> 1) Overcharging. My grandfather used to overcharge to the
>> point of
>> heavily gassing off the acid electrolyte and or boiling
>> the cells.
>
>The wall-wart charger that came with the sump pump would be
>incapable of
>overcharging the battery -- if by overcharging you mean
>using too high a
>charging current.
An unregulated wall wart CAN kill batteries from
overcharging because
they can continue to try to put a charge into the battery
long after
it is charged if line voltage is higher than the wart was
designed
around. The float voltage gets too high, the battery is
damaged (over
time)
CY: That's what happened to me, the cheap junk Harbor
Freight float charger over did things. By the time I
noticed, the float charger had electrolyzed a quart and a
half of water out of the battery, and it never worked right
after that.
> 2) Undercharging, or leaving uncharged for long periods.
> Cells need
> either a short 'refresher' charge every so often. Or a
> carefully
> controlled trickle charge, sometimes called a carefully
> adjusted
> 'float' voltage charge. Often used commercially for
> batteries that
> must be instantly ready upon power failure. e.g. telephone
> systems.
CY: I'd have been better off to put the float charger on one
day a month.
>
>> 3) Excessive heat. Batteries last much shorter time in
>> hot conditions
>> than cool. However batteries that are very cold, e.g. car
>> batteries in
>> winter, have less capacity than when same battery is at
>> say 'room'
>> temperature.
>
>The sump pump and its battery are in an unheated (but not
>very well
>insulated from a heated area) laundry room.
CY: And probably on the cool floor. The earlier batteries,
you couldn't store them on cement floor. Supposedly that's
been taken care, but I still put a piece of wood under any
battery stored in a cellar. Also, freezing can kill a
battery. I had one in unheated shed, one time. The starting
battery in my van stopped working, so I got the battery out
of the shed. Which was frozen solid, and useless.
>
>The abuse it probably has suffered is not having had
>deionized water
>added often enough. I don't recall whether that is likely
>to result in
>sulfated plates.
CY: Should be "distilled", not deionized.
Stormin Mormon
something. Store the battery off the cellar floor (piece of
wood under it). Plug in the float charger once a month for
24 hours or so. Fill the cells with only distilled water. Do
not fold, bend, spindle, or mutilate. Should give you years
of service.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
news:hhjh8a$fpf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
Agree with the deep cycle recomendation, at least in principle. By
"marine/starting battery" he may have meant the marine batteries that
are targeted at both starting as well as some deep cycle use. These
are a compromise for that application. Since he doesn't need the high
starting amps, a battery that is made for deep cycling would be the
better choice than either a regular starting battery, which is not
meant to be deep cycled at all, or the combined usage type.
Of course, like everything, there is a tradeoff. The common starting
battery is usually cheapest and the deep cycle the most expensive.
And if it's only there to be fully discharged in an emergency, like a
couple times every 5 years, it may not matter that much. If you
expected to regularly cycle it, then it would make a big difference.
Depending on price, the marine dual usage battery might be a good
choice.
Percival P. Cassidy
>> The battery we bought to go with our "Basement Watchdog" backup sump
>> pump about six years ago seems to be about dead and in need of replacement.
>>
>> We bought the "official" BW battery, which is not "maintenance free" but
>> has individual screw-in plugs for each cell. It was supplied dry and we
>> had to buy the sulfuric acid to go with it. The alleged advantages are
>> (1) it's not deteriorating while sitting on the dealer's shelf; (2) it
>> has provision for an electrolyte-level sensor to remind the user when it
>> needs topping up. But our charger/control unit must be an older model:
>> it looks different from the ones on the BW Web site, and it has neither
>> electrolyte-level sensor nor any place to connect one.
>>
>> Any good reason to buy one of these "special" batteries (24EP6 or
>> 30HDC140S) rather than an ordinary marine/starting battery from
>> Interstate or wherever?
> You do NOT want a Marine Starting battery - for sure.
> You want a good "deep Cycle" battery - from Interstate or whoever. I'd
> sure consider an Optima YelloW Top or a Trojan T105 or something along
> that line.
OK, perhaps "marine/starting" was the wrong term.
If I enter the manufacturer's battery number (24EP6) in the search box
at Interstate Batteries ir shows me the SRM-24, which is described as:
"MARINE R/V - 30 MONTHS - 550 CCA
The #1 Marine/RV replacement deep-cycle and cranking power battery
available today. These batteries have a unique new chemistry that makes
them ideal for the demands of seasonal use and added charging."
This does not have individual screw caps that would allow the use of the
electrolyte-level sensor if I had one. It's about the same price as the
official BW one from Home Depot. The nearest Interstate outlet that
sells marine batteries is about 20 miles away,
Perce
ransley
wrote:
A wall wart charger can put out anything and everything incorrect, the
only way you know is by testing it with a V meter. You cant expect
that company to have sold a commercial high quality charger - float
charger since they cost near what the whole pump costs. Your charger
could be undercharging it a few 10ths a volt, which sulfated it to
death, or it could have kept it overcharged cooking it. Your battery
has certain parameters of voltage you need to keep to make it last 20
years and I dont think your charger is doing it. 12.8 to 13.5 could be
the battery manufacturers recommended voltage, you also have to
calculate in the temperature of the battery in figuring out charge.
alt.energy.homepower used to be a good group until the chinese sales
took over, but try it, alot are on battery power there. The downside
of a cheap system like yours is when it floods, the battery might be a
dud, and you get wet. If you have city water look at www.basepump.com
its water powered, out performs battery, its cheaper to maintain, and
works when needed.
Steve Barker
no.
Van Chocstraw
They make a backup pump that runs off of water pressure. Never worry
about batteries again. Good for public water supplies. Won't work if you
are on a well pump.
Percival P. Cassidy
>> The battery we bought to go with our "Basement Watchdog" backup sump
>> pump about six years ago seems to be about dead and in need of replacement.
>>
>> We bought the "official" BW battery, which is not "maintenance free" but
>> has individual screw-in plugs for each cell. It was supplied dry and we
>> had to buy the sulfuric acid to go with it. The alleged advantages are
>> (1) it's not deteriorating while sitting on the dealer's shelf; (2) it
>> has provision for an electrolyte-level sensor to remind the user when it
>> needs topping up. But our charger/control unit must be an older model:
>> it looks different from the ones on the BW Web site, and it has neither
>> electrolyte-level sensor nor any place to connect one.
>>
>> Any good reason to buy one of these "special" batteries (24EP6 or
>> 30HDC140S) rather than an ordinary marine/starting battery from
>> Interstate or wherever?
> They make a backup pump that runs off of water pressure. Never worry
> about batteries again. Good for public water supplies. Won't work if you
> are on a well pump.
When a major cause of flooding around here is that the sewers get
overwhelmed, any system that involves the discharge of more water is
contraindicated.
Perce
hr(bob) hofmann@att.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would put the float recharger, or whatever it is, on a mechanical
timer that just connects the recharger to the power line once a day
for maybe two hours. That way, you would be recharging it if needed,
but would avoid the possibility of overchaging it if the charger
should go bonkers.
Stormin Mormon
Of course, you're correct. The water flow backups use
venturi effect, and LOTS of domestic water from the mains to
the sewer.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
news:hhlai1$282$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Percival P. Cassidy
> Are you a physician? Contraindicated?
No, but why use three words when one will do?
Perce
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Percival P. Cassidy" <Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote in message
news:hhlgmh$mi1$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -
You discharge it outside
Percival P. Cassidy
>>>> The battery we bought to go with our "Basement Watchdog" backup sump
>>>> pump about six years ago seems to be about dead and in need of
>>>> replacement.
> For the last few hours I have had it connected to a "Smart charger" that
> says it is "full" and will occasionally switch to "float" mode at 1A or
> less, although the hydrometer says it is seriously discharged: SG=1150
> or less, depending on the cell.
>
> This charger has a "Recondition" mode that is supposed to deal with
> sulfated plates. I may try that tomorrow.
I put it through the standard 24-hour "Recondition" cycle. After that
the charge rate stayed at approx. 10A for about 4 hours, whereas
previously it dropped quickly, then showed "Full" and then went into
"Float" mode. This time it was at least passing current, although the SG
did not seem to be increasing.
The instructions for the smart charger say that the "recondition" mode
can be run five times, so I've just started another cycle.
However, it seems likely that this battery is beyond resuscitation. The
"official" battery is no more expensive at HD than the supposedly
equivalent battery at Interstate, which is 20 miles away.
Perce
sligoNo...@hotmail.com
water can a single such battery be expected to pump? How much water
is it likely to need to pump. I suspect that it is likely any such
battery powered pump system is going to fall far short of the liekly
need.
Percival P. Cassidy
We do have a generator that would run the main pump.
Claimed capacity of the "Basement Watchdog" unit is 1000gph with a 10ft
lift. The smaller of the two batteries is claimed to be able to run the
pump for 6 hrs continuously; the larger battery for 7.5 hrs continuously.
Perce
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Where it either runs back in or into the already overloaded storm
sewer - which then still gets back inside.
ransley
Thats on a new battery, and full battery power is over 70f, if yours
died in 6 years figure what its pumping in 3 years, get a real charger-
float charger you can calibrate.
ransley
Yea, Battery powered pump = flood.
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -
If thats the case nothing works for your situation, But water powered
just makes sense, it out performs and works when needed. I also bet
the electric cost of a 24x365 charger is noticeable, figure in 5 years
of that, new batteries and crappy chargers that ruin batteries. It
should be called the Basement Bitch, it will make you pay and only
perform when happy.
tra...@optonline.net
Geez, talk about jumping to conclusions. I've seen lots of sump pump
installs where the water neither runs back in nor goes into the storm
sewer system. For example, it simply gets discharged 20 ft away and
disipates down a grade away from the house in the backyard.
Ransley's water powered recommendation could be a good solution,
depending on the specifics of the actual installation.
>
> If thats the case nothing works for your situation, But water powered
> just makes sense, it out performs and works when needed. I also bet
> the electric cost of a 24x365 charger is noticeable, figure in 5 years
> of that, new batteries and crappy chargers that ruin batteries. It
> should be called the Basement Bitch, it will make you pay and only
> perform when happy.- Hide quoted text -
Percival P. Cassidy
> The battery we bought to go with our "Basement Watchdog" backup sump
> pump about six years ago seems to be about dead and in need of replacement.
>
> We bought the "official" BW battery, which is not "maintenance free" but
> has individual screw-in plugs for each cell. It was supplied dry and we
> had to buy the sulfuric acid to go with it. The alleged advantages are
> (1) it's not deteriorating while sitting on the dealer's shelf; (2) it
> has provision for an electrolyte-level sensor to remind the user when it
> needs topping up. But our charger/control unit must be an older model:
> it looks different from the ones on the BW Web site, and it has neither
> electrolyte-level sensor nor any place to connect one.
>
> Any good reason to buy one of these "special" batteries (24EP6 or
> 30HDC140S) rather than an ordinary marine/starting battery from
> Interstate or wherever?
I found a 75AH sealed lead-acid battery with the "Campbell Hausfeld"
brand at Menards with the sump pumps. Not cheap, but it won't have to be
topped up -- and it fit in the bag, which got me a 15% discount.
Perce
Chris Hill
No, it'll just boil dry. Unless you are willing to get a decent
charger, don't expect a battery to be there when you need it.
---
A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. -- Joseph Campbell
Percival P. Cassidy
>> I found a 75AH sealed lead-acid battery with the "Campbell Hausfeld"
>> brand at Menards with the sump pumps. Not cheap, but it won't have to be
>> topped up -- and it fit in the bag, which got me a 15% discount.
> No, it'll just boil dry. Unless you are willing to get a decent
> charger, don't expect a battery to be there when you need it.
I don't see that a charger fed from a 900mAH wall wart could do much
damage to a 75AH battery even if the controller circuit didn't switch
from "charging" to "charged" (i.e., stop charging) for long periods.
And the idea of the sealed lead-acid battery is that the hydrogen and
oxygen generated get recombined in the cell to form water again.
Perce
ransley
You need to learn about crappy chargers, a wall wart can put out
anything and everything, you think because its small it cant do harm,
thats funny. It can ruin a battery in less than a year if not
operating to the batterys specifications.
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
To which I'd add, I doubt the wall wart is 900 mah as their rating
doesn't have a time component.
Mark
> On 01/09/10 02:12 pm, Chris Hill wrote:
>
> >> I found a 75AH sealed lead-acid battery with the "Campbell Hausfeld"
> >> brand at Menards with the sump pumps. Not cheap, but it won't have to be
> >> topped up -- and it fit in the bag, which got me a 15% discount.
> > No, it'll just boil dry. Unless you are willing to get a decent
> > charger, don't expect a battery to be there when you need it.
>
> I don't see that a charger fed from a 900mAH wall wart could do much
> damage to a 75AH battery even if the controller circuit didn't switch
> from "charging" to "charged" (i.e., stop charging) for long periods.
>
>
there are many web sites that explain the problems of over or under
charging a lead acid battery...here is just one..
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-13.htm
Mark
Chris Hill
No. That is wishful thinking. Sealed just means you can't add water.
The hydrogen and oxygen still get boiled off, there is a vent
somewhere on that battery. 900ma at 120v is 9a at 12v. That can
definitely do damage.
>
>Perce
AZ Nomad
If they combined as you suggest, there's be a fire, possibly an explosion.
Percival P. Cassidy
>>>> I found a 75AH sealed lead-acid battery with the "Campbell Hausfeld"
>>>> brand at Menards with the sump pumps. Not cheap, but it won't have to be
>>>> topped up -- and it fit in the bag, which got me a 15% discount.
>>> No, it'll just boil dry. Unless you are willing to get a decent
>>> charger, don't expect a battery to be there when you need it.
>> I don't see that a charger fed from a 900mAH wall wart could do much
>> damage to a 75AH battery even if the controller circuit didn't switch
>>from "charging" to "charged" (i.e., stop charging) for long periods.
>>
>> And the idea of the sealed lead-acid battery is that the hydrogen and
>> oxygen generated get recombined in the cell to form water again.
> No. That is wishful thinking. Sealed just means you can't add water.
> The hydrogen and oxygen still get boiled off, there is a vent
> somewhere on that battery.
That's not what the manufacturer's description says.
900ma at 120v is 9a at 12v. That can
> definitely do damage.
900mA @ 15v not @ 120v.
Even if the controller did not switch out of charge mode for long
periods, 900mA is hardly any more than a "float charge" rate.
Perce
ransley
charge inbetween a set low peak and high peal level to maintain 100%
charge. www.batteryuniversity.com will help you to do your own testing
to see what is really going on in voltage. A new battery with your
same charger will give you a half dead battery in a few years. My
float charger and big battery charger I can adjust voltage and I have
as they drift over the years. I trust my V meter more than any
chargers accuracy.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
There is a difference between sealed flooded cell lead acid and
recombinent AGM batteries.
Recombinent agm batteries are "starved electrolyte" batteries and
unless grossly overcharged do NOT lose water or boil dry.
They DO have a limited lifespan, but 5 years on a properly sized and
set up unit is not a stretch - and the charging system does not need
to be "sophisticated"
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Not so. They DO work. And catalytic caps are available for flooded
acid batteries that do the same as long as they are not GROSSLY
overcharged.
Chris Hill
Hmmm, I believe the op was talking about a sealed lead acid, he didn't
mention AGM. I'm not sold on agm myself, I have one out in the garage
with one terminal corroded beyond the point of utility. Nice idea,
but just as bad as all the others from what I've seen.