OT: Gas mix in outboard incorrect, not enough oil?, how long to ruin the engine?
Norminn
Vacation, rented "cottage" with rented pontoon. Return of the security
deposits quite late....now the story is "not returning the deposit
'cause you trashed the outboard". It was a 20-something foot pontoon,
no idea size of engine (the guys will remember and they aren't here
right now). I have photos of our grandkids tubing on the last day we
were there....proof the boat was operating.
This was an "upscale" rental, complete with decorator coordinated bed
linens. $200 non-returnable cleaning charge, $750 dam. deposit. It was
cleaner when we left than when we arrived, thanks to grandma (me).
All of the adults made their own "final inspection" to look for
forgotten belongings, but owner wasn't present when we departed.
Stormin Mormon
sieze up the engine. But, I've seen mixes as rich as 16:1
and as lean as 100:1. Unless the engine siezed up, it seems
like it's a case of add some more oil to the gas, and mix it
up some how.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Norminn" <nor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Kq6dnXSfF9mz9PrT...@earthlink.com...
jamesgangnc
Most are pretty forgiving about the exact mix. I'm guessing it was an
older outbard since most new ones would not use premix and would have
seperate oil and gas tanks. Which suggests it could have been
anything that broke it. I'd request reciepts from a commercial repair
shop with diagnosis on it.
Bottom line though is unless your'e willing to upscale the battle
you're pretty much at their mercy. I'd leave bad reviews where ever I
could though. Unless you get some pretty convincing evidence that it
was your fault.
Norminn
> Gas mix is fairly forgiving. Straight gas will eventually
> sieze up the engine. But, I've seen mixes as rich as 16:1
> and as lean as 100:1. Unless the engine siezed up, it seems
> like it's a case of add some more oil to the gas, and mix it
> up some how.
>
Any idea how long "eventually" is? I guess their position is that it
seized up, since they say it is "ruined".
jamesgangnc
On a large engine like an outboard, straight gas will sieze it almost
immediately. Basically only as long as it takes to flush the
remaining premix from the fuel system and crankcase.
It's difficult to say with precision since it's unlikely the fuel tank
was completely empty when the alleged straight gas was added.
Were you required to leave the outboard fully fueled? That would be
the opportunity to mess it up, rushing around to get everything done
before leaving. Many of my screwups (not that I have a lot) were
because of being in a hurry :-)
Bob_Villa
If they are "upscale" they should have left you enough "mix" for you
to use...so as to protect their property.
I would assume they don't expect you back! :^/
Steve B
Tell us the whole story, please. Did you add any gas to what was provided
when you took possession of the boat? Did you mix any oil and gas? How
much gas and how much oil? Questions are a lot easier to answer when facts
are given.
Steve
tra...@optonline.net
I'm reading between the lines and think
that we heard about the decorator linens but
nothing about what they did regarding putting
fuel in the engine for a reason......
If it was supposed to be 32:1 and you mixed
it 40:1 I would say it would be fine. If you
put straight gas in, I'd say significant damage
could start within minutes and the engine
could seize quickly. A lot would depend on
how it was used. Sitting idling at the dock
it would run longer. At full power, I would
think it could be over in minutes. It's like
running your car without engine oil.
Some related issues. Do you know for a
fact that you did not put oil in it? Was it
clearly explained what you were required
to do or not do? If they are demanding
payment and/or keeping the deposit you
have a right to see a diagnosis/bill, etc
from a reputable repair place that says
the engine failed from lack of oil.
Stormin Mormon
within one tankful of gas, if the engine was run enough to
warm up.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Norminn" <nor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:o9adndOyn76W7vrT...@earthlink.com...
Red Green
news:Kq6dnXSfF9mz9PrT...@earthlink.com:
take them so long to determine the engine was trashed? Between the
time they took possession and no refund notification, it NEVER ran
or was used by anyone else including the staff? Of course they will
never admit stuff but good copy for CC inquiry option below.
- Was it the owner or the proprieter refusing the $ return?
- A proprieter who has found a way to generate income without
owner knowing?
* Was it paid for on a credit card? Start writing letters to CC company
contesting charges. Provide in depth details with timeline,
photocopies of any receipts, agreements, equipment return docs,
anything pertaining to the overall transaction. CC company will
contact merchant if your documentaion shows merit.
> proof the boat was operating
You have nothing more than a pic it was working at some point you were
there.
If not a CC transaction, write a letter (no email) to the OWNER. Idealy
certified with return receipt. Request definition of "trashed the
outboard" by certified mechanic. Request service records.
Was there a damage waiver option like when you rent a vehicle or
equipment?
Check with BBB (value in question) for other complaints.
If owner has it set in stone you're not getting deposit back and CC not
used, only possibe recourse is legal. That's probably gonna cost more
than the deposit.
Just thought to which you may get nothing more than making them work for
the deposit. CC company probably your best hope at no cost to you.
harry
> Vacation, rented "cottage" with rented pontoon. Return of the security
> deposits quite late....now the story is "not returning the deposit
> 'cause you trashed the outboard". It was a 20-something foot pontoon,
> no idea size of engine (the guys will remember and they aren't here
> right now). I have photos of our grandkids tubing on the last day we
> were there....proof the boat was operating.
>
And was it in fact a two cycle engine? They are now uncommon due to
pollution concerns. Most are now four cycle.
Red Green
812627...@w28g2000yqw.googlegroups.com:
Two very good questions.
Norminn
are careful and experienced. I'll know more after I speak with my son.
I believe that the arrangement was to provide fuel for us, but there
was none. One of the running lights on the boat was broken, so couldn't
use it after dark until my son and daughter repaired it. The owner said
nothing about the engine until my daughter asked for the deposit, which
was already two weeks overdue and a month after we left the cottage.
jamesgangnc
>
> - Show quoted text -
If you did not refuel it after your last use then it's very unlikely
Norminn
I know nothing about the required mix, except that it is normal for
outboards and lawnmowers....there were five adults who had some hand, at
different times, in fueling or operating the boat. All experienced
boaters and careful.
>
> Some related issues. Do you know for a
> fact that you did not put oil in it? Was it
> clearly explained what you were required
> to do or not do? If they are demanding
> payment and/or keeping the deposit you
> have a right to see a diagnosis/bill, etc
> from a reputable repair place that says
> the engine failed from lack of oil.
There was a book of "rules" sent to us during the contracting for the
stay...one week. All who were inclined to operate the boat had to
provide copies of driv. license prior to arrival. Rules included no
smoking on premises, which I presume meant outdoors as well as in :o)
tra...@optonline.net
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would check the rental laws in the state where
this occured. Many now have strict limits on
how long a landlord has to return a deposit or
tell you why they are keeping it. And the ones
I've seen require it to done in 30 days or less.
That might be the only defense you need. If
the landlord cannot show that he notified you
in writing within the required period, you get
the deposit back. Some even give you 2X
the deposit back if it was wrongfully withheld.
You'd also need to make sure those laws
apply to short term vacation rentals. I've
seen them come into play in normal month
to month rentals.
notbob
> And was it in fact a two cycle engine? They are now uncommon due to
> pollution concerns. Most are now four cycle.
Not only that, but automix technology (auto oil injection) came to
2-strokes over 35 yrs ago.
I did a stint as an outboard motor mechanic back in the early 70s.
The biggest motor killer wasn't oil/gas mix, but running the motors
aground and clogging the cooling water intake. Even then, the motors
would seize up, then run fine after cool down.
The whole thing sounds like your basic get-a-piece-of-the-refund scam,
to me.
nb
Norminn
I did a google search on law for the state and got some very good info;
the state law is very specific about time limits to return dep, notice
of damages as basis for not returning, etc. I'm just curious about what
could possibly have gone wrong with the engine, as I'm sure it is a
bogus claim. Will know more later.
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
The short answer is no one here can tell you
what happened or did not happen to the engine.
You can't even tell us if you know oil was
required to be mixed for the engine, if anyone
mixed it, what ratio, if you ran it normally
after it was refilled for an extended period,
or just filled it incorrectly prior to leaving
and left it to seize later with the landlord.
If it was a 2 stroke and required oil to be
mixed, the tank was empty and you
filled it with straight gas, then ran
it at full power for even 10 mins, I would
think that is long enough to trash it.
If the tank was half full and you topped
it off, then it would probably survive.
But since you don't know much at
all about what really went on, I don't
know how you can expect anyone here
to cover all the endless possibilites.
Nor do I see how you are so sure
the landlord is lying.
Norminn
My ignorance shows ... didn't know how many combinations there might be
(like, are they all 2:3 oil:gas) or whether a minor miscalculation might
ruin an engine.....I've never even used a gas mower :o)
>
> If it was a 2 stroke and required oil to be
> mixed, the tank was empty and you
> filled it with straight gas, then ran
> it at full power for even 10 mins, I would
> think that is long enough to trash it.
> If the tank was half full and you topped
> it off, then it would probably survive.
> But since you don't know much at
> all about what really went on, I don't
> know how you can expect anyone here
> to cover all the endless possibilites.
> Nor do I see how you are so sure
> the landlord is lying.
I'm not SURE the landlord is lying, but their written terms and rules
were so explicit, I expected the same level of conduct in return.
Informing us a month after we left the rental is a little stinky,
considering their otherwise very strict requirements.
My gut feeling is that they inherited a nice lake place, blew their wad
remodeling and decorating, expected to make another wad renting it
out.... And I fully understand the difference between being wrong and
lying.
tra...@optonline.net
I agree it's not right that they notified you more than
a month later. If it's a popular area they probably
would have had other renters in those weeks after
you. Meanng it seems odd that either the landlord
or some other renter didn't find out the boat
didn't work. But, in the landlord's defense,
that could have happened and it might have
taken a long time to get a marine mechanic to
look at it. They can be busy this time of year.
In that case, while they would have know that
the boat wasn't working, they might not have
had a report saying what caused it. Still, no
excuse for not getting back to you much
earlier to at least tell you something.
I guess if it were me, I'd figure out who put
gas in it last and what they did or think they did.
Based on that, I'd then ask the landlord for
documentation that shows what exactly was
wrong with it and what it says caused it.
What does the state law that you looked at say
with regard to amount of time to return deposits?
Is it an out for you?
And even if you did ruin the engine, you're only
responsible for what it was worth, not a brand
new engine. If it was 20 years old, that may
not be that much. Knowing the engine you
could maybe find similar ones on Ebay.
>
> My gut feeling is that they inherited a nice lake place, blew their wad
> remodeling and decorating, expected to make another wad renting it
> out.... And I fully understand the difference between being wrong and
> lying.- Hide quoted text -
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Perhaps the majority of NEW engines MIGHT be 4 stroke - but by a very
large margin, the VAST majority of operational outboards in North
America are 2 stroke. And yes, MANY 2 stroke engines are now oil
injected - but again - the LARGE MAJORITY of operational outboards in
North America run pre-mix.
Norminn
four-stroke, but that's all I know.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Two basic 2 stroke systems.Both burn oil with the gas and lubricate
the engine with the fuel mix as it flows through the crankcase.
Oil injection has an oil tank and a gas tank.A pump on the engine
meters the proper amount of oil according to engine speed and load.
Premix means you put the proper amount of oil in the gas.
4 stroke means the oil is in the crankcase and is not (in an ideal
world) burned by the engine.Wet sump means the oil stays in the
crancase and is pumped around to lubricate the engine - dry sump
stores the oil in a tank and pumps it through the engine to lubricate
it.
gregz
because the oil didn't mix as well as current oils.
Greg
Steve B
<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote
> Perhaps the majority of NEW engines MIGHT be 4 stroke - but by a very
> large margin, the VAST majority of operational outboards in North
> America are 2 stroke. And yes, MANY 2 stroke engines are now oil
> injected - but again - the LARGE MAJORITY of operational outboards in
> North America run pre-mix.
you never heard of them
Steve
harry
> On 9/7/2011 7:33 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
You can tell a two stroke engine by the noise. They have a high
pitched buzz compared with four stroke. Exactly like a chainsaw (also
two stroke)
Also two sroke engines have a smokey exhaust, especially the old ones
that had more oil in the mixture.
I would sayi t was incumbent on the landlord to provide fuel, (esp.
for a two stroke)
This is an obvious thing to go wrong for non-technocrats.
Was the a warning sign on the boat?
jamesgangnc
them. Two strokes are still hugely common in outboards. Emissions
standards are reducing the nimber of new ones made. But in boat usage
motor can last many years. The majority of the population simply
doesn't put that many hours on a boat. So there are still lots of
olds ones running fine and likely to keep running for along time to
come.
Bob_Villa
>
> I would say it was incumbent on the landlord to provide fuel, (esp.
> for a two stroke)
>
Which is what I eluded to long ago in this post.
notbob
marina I once worked at was the only source, so wasn't an issue.
Other vendors would probably be likewise savvy and unless they
purposely wanted to screw the original renter, why would they allow a
rentee to use straight gas. Frankly, I think the whole story is
bogus.
nb
mkir...@rochester.rr.com
> Which means.....add oil or not? Sorry, I've heard of two-stroke and
> four-stroke, but that's all I know.
specifies the required mixture ratio.
Ask your son/daughter specifically what they did regarding fueling the
boat over the course of the week, write it down, and repeat it here.
That information is very pertinent and important to this discussion.
Without it, you may as well be admitting guilt.
Norminn
>
> Vacation, rented "cottage" with rented pontoon. Return of the security
> deposits quite late....now the story is "not returning the deposit
> 'cause you trashed the outboard". It was a 20-something foot pontoon, no
> idea size of engine (the guys will remember and they aren't here right
> now). I have photos of our grandkids tubing on the last day we were
> there....proof the boat was operating.
>
> linens. $200 non-returnable cleaning charge, $750 dam. deposit. It was
> cleaner when we left than when we arrived, thanks to grandma (me).
>
> All of the adults made their own "final inspection" to look for
> forgotten belongings, but owner wasn't present when we departed.
with cites of the state statutes for returning security deposits.
Oren
wrote:
>The check is in the mail. Just took one more strongly worded email,
>with cites of the state statutes for returning security deposits.
sneaky way to keep your money. That guy would have to explain the
comment to me in detail.
Let us know...
Norminn
about how he claimed the engine was damaged while I checked out the
statutes. Her attorney approved one email, but I told her not to
discuss treatment of the engine any further, as it was beginning to
sound like a trap. We used the boat all afternoon day before we
departed, no sign of a problem as far as engine operation went. We
fixed the running light with broken pole. It was obvious, since it took
the owner over a month to notify of the alleged damages that something
was real stinky....I gave my daughter appropriate quotes from the state
law that sealed it....there is no wiggle room. The statute gives
precise timing for notice of damage or return of deposit, even requires
a particular size font in the communication :o)
Allegedly the engine quit the day after we left, with new renters on
board.
tra...@optonline.net
Good for you. The last line makes the whole thing
stink to the max. It's not credible that they had
the boat fail with another renter the day after you
left and did not notify you for over a month.
jamesgangnc
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
They're not very smart including a boat usage. Boats are really easy
to damage, The "next" renter could have just as easily forgot the oil
themselves. Around here any decent sized boat rental costs $150 to
$200 a day.
Stormin Mormon
Makes me wonder. When renting a boat, might make sense to
add some two stroke mixing oil to the tank, in case the last
people did not.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:5c181a5b-bd1f-4948...@o9g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
Norminn
recently, anyway :o)
jamesgangnc
>
> - Show quoted text -
A brand new outboard suitable for a pontoon will start around 4 or 5
grand and go up. And sizeable used one is worth 2 grand or more.
There are outboards that cost over $10k, admittedly too big for most
pontoons. So how's their $500 looking now?
Bob_Villa
> Yes, that looks suspicious.
>
> Makes me wonder. When renting a boat, might make sense to
> add some two stroke mixing oil to the tank, in case the last
> people did not.
>
Norminn
> A brand new outboard suitable for a pontoon will start around 4 or 5
> grand and go up. And sizeable used one is worth 2 grand or more.
> There are outboards that cost over $10k, admittedly too big for most
> pontoons. So how's their $500 looking now?
are similar engines for $14-1700. If I can make up the cost of property
by renting it out for three weeks, I would consider it a hell of a deal.
I don't give a rats ass what it cost THEM - they screwed themselves by
not passing along important info to their renters* and then tried to
screw us. We were very careful and respectful in our use of all of
their property, at all times.
*They mentioned nothing about a gas mix to us, so I assume the next
renter got the same. If they aren't informed enough to pass along that
information to a tenant, then they learned an expensive lesson. All in
my family who operated the boat are experienced boaters, so all the more
careful with their boat.
jamesgangnc
had a very small engine. Or you were looking at used.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
it most definitely was NOT new - so why would a renter be liable for
the cost of a NEW engine?? ANd if you are renting a boat and motor for
the price the OP was renting, the owner would NOT be providing a new
engine.