Backup for Well Water During Power Outages

[HerHusband]

We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
electricity.

We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.

We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.

I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out.

The cheap solution is just to store containers of water somewhere. But,
that takes space and isn't very convenient. I don't know that my daughter
would be able or willing to lift a 5 gallon container of water to refill
a toilet tank if I'm not around.

A generator is an obvious option, but power outages are rather rare. I
don't want one more engine to have to maintain, worry about gas getting
stale and gumming up, etc. Propane generators might overcome the long
term storage issue, but they still take up space and require maintenance.
Not to mention, I don't really want to go out in cold wind storms to
start up a generator. Call me lazy.

An inverter/charger system with batteries would be a good solution.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen an affordable system that can power my 1/2
HP 240V well pump. The ones I have seen cost more than a generator, or I
would have to cobble together multiple devices (inverters, chargers, auto
transformers, etc.) to make everything work.

One final option I've thought of would be to store a water tank in our
heated attic space. I figured I could plumb the inlet at the top and the
outlet at the bottom so it is flushed regularly. With only a 9' rise it
would offer very little pressure, but I would think it would still refill
the toilets. We wouldn't be taking showers or washing laundry during a
power outage anyway. The major downside to this option is getting the
tank into the attic space and modifying all the plumbing. Doable, just
not my ideal option.

I'm curious what backup systems other water well users have come up with.

I am only looking for a backup for a day, not outages lasting a week or
more.

Thanks,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[philo]

On 11/28/2014 12:00 PM, HerHusband wrote:
> We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
> it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
> We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
> electricity.
>
> We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
> radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
> cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
> the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
> we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.
>
> We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
> out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
> toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
> goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.
>

<snip>


Why would the tank not be full at all times?

I'd figure out a way to always keep it full .

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

We live in a similar situation - propane for heating, electricity for everything
else including well. Average power out situations more than 15 minutes maybe
once a year. Longest power outage in the past 8 years has been 24 hours, with a
few that were 1-6 hours.

We keep a 50 gallon potable water storage tank in the garage along with a couple
of filled 8 gallon jerry cans. Add a small amount of chlorine per EPA guidelines
and storage isn't an issue. The storage tank and jerry cans have faucet valves
on them, so taking smaller amounts isn't an issue. That more than covers
drinking water, flushing toilets and the occasional navy shower.

We have an advanced septic system with pumps and an air compressor. That has a
certain amount of buffer (maybe a few hundred gallons max) before it needs power
to process, so more storage water isn't a good solution.

An inverter/battery/charger based system is going to be expensive to get any
kind of wattage/duration. I think a portable generator is really the correct
answer. Costco has a nice dual fuel (gas / propane) portable genset for around
$700 last time I looked. You can't run it off a BBQ grill tank for a long time,
but if you have larger tanks for your house it should work quite well. They
don't show it at Costco.com, but it looks like this one:

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/10000-Watt-Propane-Generator.asp?page=P03888

Make sure you get a transfer switch wired into your house. Cheap manual ones
work just fine. Running a suicide cord to a dryer outlet (or worse) is not a
good idea. Maintenance isn't that big a deal. Run it for 15 minutes every month.
If you use gasoline, add Stabil and replace or burn it dry once a year.

I've seen no reports for how well these work, but if you can get by with 900W,
they look interesting:

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/EF1000iS_Bi_Fuel.asp?page=EF1000iS_Bi_Fuel

Keep in mind that well motors (or any motor) have a significant surge/startup
draw that can overload your generator if not sized properly. And if you do an
inverter, make sure it's a true sine wave inverter. They are more expensive than
the square wave inverters, but a lot easier on your devices (if they work at
all).

Or just go to Costco and buy a 100 cases of water in 1/2 liter bottles.

[dpb]

On 11/28/2014 12:25 PM, philo wrote:
> On 11/28/2014 12:00 PM, HerHusband wrote:

...

>> We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
>> out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
>> toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
>> goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.
>>
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
> Why would the tank not be full at all times?

...

Because pump will only kick on again when pressure drops to low-pressure
setpoint...which point has, if the pressure is set corretly, emptied
about 75% of the full capacity.

--

[trader_4]

On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:

My first thought is if it's just for a day, whatever min is in
that 80 gallon tank, ie assuming it's almost about to kick the
pump on when power goes out, would be enough for me. Or that
plus a couple of 5 gallon jugs.

One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
give you a min of 20 gallons to work with. Or add
that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
X being the size of the additional tank into buckets. I guess you
could also plumb in a tank of compressed air that you could activate,
that would then provide pressure, so that you could use the full 80
or whatever gallons.

For me, in lieu of all that, I'd just get a generator, because not
only can it supply water, but it can keep the heat, lights, fridge, etc
going too.

[Paul Drahn]

On 11/28/2014 10:00 AM, HerHusband wrote:

>
> We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
> out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
> toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
> goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.
>
> I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
> can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
> it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
> Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out.
>

You had better hope your pressure tank DOESN'T fill up. That would mean
it has an air leak and your well pump would run continuously.

When our well pump died several years ago, we bought a bunch of 5 gallon
plastic water cans to supplement the one can we had for camping trips.
Took to neighbors and filled them.

Your daughter can fill a kitchen pot from the water can and dump into
the toilet tank. Sure, takes more time.

If the road to a neighbor with power is open, make a deal with them to
fill you cans. You do have a pickup, don't you?

If the water is stored in the dark and kept cool, it should last as long
as the winter storms are possible. then dump and refill at the beginning
of next winter.

Your outages can't be as long as we had in Issaquah, Wa in 1994. More
than a week.

Paul, in Central Oregon

[philo]

Ok then. If the OP goes with the reserve tank in the attic...better take
into account the weight of water.

80 gallons would be something like 650#

[CRNG]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 18:00:39 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband
<unk...@unknown.com> wrote in
<XnsA3F365DEFD...@213.239.209.88>

>Call me lazy.

Ok, you are lazy, and there aren't any good solutions for lazy people.

If you weren't so lazy, I would reccomend that generator solution. It
will not only solve your water problems, but it would also provide
some lights and fans to move the heat from the wood stove around.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[Terry Coombs]

A small generator set is really your best option . Use it to fill the
tank<s> then shut it down . Most modern sets have a valve to shut off fuel
flow so you can run the carb dry , and a little sta-bil in the tank
<especially if you can get non-eth fuel> will keep the gas usable for
months .

--
Snag

[dadiOH]

"philo " <ph...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:m5ag3m$eg4$1...@dont-email.me

And if his attic was made with trusses he probably wouldn't want that
weight on them. I wouldn't.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/28/2014 1:59 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> Living with the same situation, I finally just bit the bullet and
> bought a generator. I have had it 3 years, new in the box.
>

My generator in a box sits along with a quart
of good motor oil, and a spray can of ether.

Of course, the OP will need some wiring skill.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/28/2014 2:35 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
> A small generator set is really your best option . Use it to fill the
> tank<s> then shut it down . Most modern sets have a valve to shut off fuel
> flow so you can run the carb dry , and a little sta-bil in the tank
> <especially if you can get non-eth fuel> will keep the gas usable for
> months .
>

My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.

I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

[Ralph Mowery]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MC4ew.792289$FX2.6...@fx18.iad...

> On 11/28/2014 1:59 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> Living with the same situation, I finally just bit the bullet and
>> bought a generator. I have had it 3 years, new in the box.
>>
>
> My generator in a box sits along with a quart
> of good motor oil, and a spray can of ether.
>

I made the mistake of getting a generator about 20 years ago and just opened
the box to see what kind of plugs and oil I would need, then sitting th ebox
back over it.

The wiring is no problem for me. Had that taken care, but when it came time
for me to use the generator, I could not get it started. It was dark and I
could not see it too well with just the flashlight. The next day my son
came over and we looked at it. Seems that it has an on/off switch that I
missed seeing in the dark, and the manual did not have it listed either,
They showed the very old style of springie thing over the spark plug to shut
off the engine. I doubt that method had been used in many years.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/28/2014 4:07 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 15:10:27 -0500, Stormin Mormon

>>
>> My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
>> knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
>> use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
>> the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.
>>
>> I thought I was helping, by running it dry.
>

> You fog 2 strokes
>

I'm not sure why you are telling me that I do
some thing, when I've got no idea what it is
you are telling me that I do. How would you
know that I do this "whatever" thing?

--

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>They showed the very old style of springie thing over the spark plug to shut
>off the engine. I doubt that method had been used in many years.

Wow. It has to be 40 years since I've seen a gas motor with a ground tab over
the spark plug. That's amazing...

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

Stormin Mormon <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> How would you
>know that I do this "whatever" thing?

Presumably by reading the owner's manual for the engine.

You shouldn't run 2 cycle engines dry as the fuel is used for lubrication inside
the motor.

[Ralph Mowery]

"Arthur Conan Doyle" <do...@bother.com> wrote in message
news:95sh7a521tnpe9r9r9v22uec8v8ql148do@None...

I don't know how long it has been that the ground tab has not been used, bit
it has been a long time. The generator was bought new around 1998 and the
book showed the tab, but the engine actually had the switch mounted on it.
Really odd that an owners manual that new would show one even if the engine
did not have one.

I just pulled the manual for the generator. It says to stop the engine push
the stop tab to the spark plug. Also the engine manual that came with it
shows the stop tab and tells you to stop the engine by pushing it to the
spark plug. the date shows up as 1995

For what it is worth, it is a 5 kw generator with a Tecumseh engine.

[Bob F]

gfre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 18:00:39 +0000 (UTC), HerHusband

> <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:
>
>> We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of
>> water, so it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the
>> power goes out. We live in Washington state and everything here is
>> powered by electricity.
>

> Living with the same situation, I finally just bit the bullet and
> bought a generator. I have had it 3 years, new in the box.

If you haven't tried it powering the water pump, I wouldn't be so sure.

[HerHusband]

>> If the OP goes with the reserve tank in the attic...
>> better take into account the weight of water.
>> 80 gallons would be something like 650#

> if his attic was made with trusses he probably wouldn't
> want that weight on them. I wouldn't.

Our "attic" is just a small 6'x24' room above our guest bath and laundry.
It's below the insulation so it doesn't freeze in winter or cook in the
summer. It has it's own 2x6 floor joists @ 16" OC that span about six feet.
Weight wouldn't be much of issue. But, it's only about 4 feet high and the
access hole is fairly small. I would probably have to install several
smaller tanks instead of one larger one.

In any case, that's kind of a last resort option as it would involve
running new pipes up to the attic. By the time I bought the tanks,
modified the plumbing, and installed and plumbed drip pans in case a tank
leaks, it's more trouble than it's worth.

Just one of those crazy ideas I was tossing around. :)

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[HerHusband]

> We keep a 50 gallon potable water storage tank in the garage along
> with a couple of filled 8 gallon jerry cans. Add a small amount of
> chlorine per EPA guidelines and storage isn't an issue.

I don't really have the space for a 50 gallon tank. I think several 5-10
gallon containers would be more doable. Those would at least fit in the
garage attic.

> We have an advanced septic system with pumps and an air compressor.

Thankfully, ours is a regular gravity feed system. No power needed.

> An inverter/battery/charger based system is going to be expensive to
> get any kind of wattage/duration.

All I was really hoping for is a single recharge of the 80 gallon pressure
tank. If the power is out much longer than that, I would probably look for
other options (motel, etc.).

The 1/2 HP pump doesn't need much power, but as you said the startup surge
can be three times that, increasing the size of the inverter or generator
needed.

> Make sure you get a transfer switch wired into your house.

Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not connected
to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from the
wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
source. :)

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[HerHusband]

> Why would the tank not be full at all times?

The pump fills up the tank then shuts off when it reaches full pressure.

At that point, the pressurized tank supplies water to the house.

When the tank pressure drops to the minimum cutoff, the pump turns on and
refills the tank.

If the power goes out when the tank is full, we have 80 gallons of water.
If the power goes out when the tank is about the reach the minimum cutoff,
we may only have 5-10 gallons.

> I'd figure out a way to always keep it full.

That's kind of like ensuring the gas tank in your car is always full. :)

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[Hul Tytus]

If possible, adjust the pump to start at 50% full rather than 10-20%.

Hul

[HerHusband]

> One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
> tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
> give you a min of 20 gallons to work with.

Interesting idea, but it would make the pump run more frequently
(shortening it's life). I don't know if there would be any other side
effects.

> Or add that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
> air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
> about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
> X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

We sort of have that situation now. Even when the tank is empty, we still
have whatever water is in the 150+ 1" pipe running from the well to the
house. The pressure tank sits 10-15 feet higher than the house, so it still
flows (slowly) into the house. It's usually good for 4-5 toilet flushes
even once the tank is empty.

> I'd just get a generator, because not only can it supply water,
> but it can keep the heat, lights, fridge, etc going too.

The well and house are on two separate power supplies. Unless I want to
move the generator back and forth, it wouldn't be very convenient. Not to
mention having to rewire the house circuits.

I'm fine going without power for a day or two, but it's harder to do
without water.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[philo]

I'd probably use the lazy man method and keep a dozen (or two)water
filled one gallon milk jugs in the basement. Use the water to flush the
toilet only when necessary.

Not elegant but Ok for once or twice a year.


At least when the power goes out here, the water still works.

[HerHusband]

> You had better hope your pressure tank DOESN'T fill up. That would
> mean it has an air leak and your well pump would run continuously.

Yep, good point. I should have said the tank had reached it's upper cutoff
point ("full").

> When our well pump died several years ago, we bought a bunch of 5
> gallon plastic water cans to supplement the one can we had for camping
> trips.

That's sounding more and more like the most reasonable and cost effective
solution.

> You do have a pickup, don't you?

Nope, just a couple of small VW cars. As long as the snow plow can make it
up the hill, we can make it out.

> Your outages can't be as long as we had in Issaquah, Wa in 1994.
> More than a week.

We rarely have more than one or two outages a year, and those are usually
just a few hours at most. The ones this year were actually longer than we
typically have. However, I think it was about the same time frame as you
that our power went out for close to a week. We had no backup heat at that
time, which made for a rough week. :)

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[Stormin Mormon]

Fretwell told me that I fog two strokes.

I'm still wondering how he knows that I
do that.

[Fake ID]

On 11/28/2014 3:10 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

> My ETQ two stroke developed some really awful rod
> knock after I ran it dry a couple times. Need to
> use the rocker switch, and leave the gas mix in
> the crankcase. Still runs, but the quiet is gone.
>
> I thought I was helping, by running it dry.

According to the experts at Stihl, running it dry is the proper thing to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPRwCf6-ybs

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/28/2014 1:33 PM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
> We live in a similar situation - propane for heating, electricity for everything
> else including well. Average power out situations more than 15 minutes maybe
> once a year. Longest power outage in the past 8 years has been 24 hours, with a
> few that were 1-6 hours.

>
> We keep a 50 gallon potable water storage tank in the garage along with a couple
> of filled 8 gallon jerry cans. Add a small amount of chlorine per EPA guidelines

> and storage isn't an issue. The storage tank and jerry cans have faucet valves
> on them, so taking smaller amounts isn't an issue. That more than covers
> drinking water, flushing toilets and the occasional navy shower.
>
> We have an advanced septic system with pumps and an air compressor. That has a
> certain amount of buffer (maybe a few hundred gallons max) before it needs power
> to process, so more storage water isn't a good solution.

>
> An inverter/battery/charger based system is going to be expensive to get any

> kind of wattage/duration. I think a portable generator is really the correct
> answer. Costco has a nice dual fuel (gas / propane) portable genset for around
> $700 last time I looked. You can't run it off a BBQ grill tank for a long time,
> but if you have larger tanks for your house it should work quite well. They
> don't show it at Costco.com, but it looks like this one:
>
> http://www.generatorsales.com/order/10000-Watt-Propane-Generator.asp?page=P03888
>
> Make sure you get a transfer switch wired into your house. Cheap manual ones
> work just fine. Running a suicide cord to a dryer outlet (or worse) is not a
> good idea. Maintenance isn't that big a deal. Run it for 15 minutes every month.
> If you use gasoline, add Stabil and replace or burn it dry once a year.
>
> I've seen no reports for how well these work, but if you can get by with 900W,
> they look interesting:
>
> http://www.generatorsales.com/order/EF1000iS_Bi_Fuel.asp?page=EF1000iS_Bi_Fuel
>
> Keep in mind that well motors (or any motor) have a significant surge/startup
> draw that can overload your generator if not sized properly. And if you do an
> inverter, make sure it's a true sine wave inverter. They are more expensive than
> the square wave inverters, but a lot easier on your devices (if they work at
> all).
>
> Or just go to Costco and buy a 100 cases of water in 1/2 liter bottles.

>
>
> HerHusband <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm curious what backup systems other water well users have come up with.
>>
>> I am only looking for a backup for a day, not outages lasting a week or
>> more.

I'm not a well user, but my backup power is a
gasoline generator. I've got a gascan for the
mower, etc, so have some gas on hand.

Generator oversized by a bit is good idea, and
also to check the amp draw of the motor, if
you've got those skills.

Another option to discuss, is a power inverter
to put on your car battery with the car running.
Extension cords to the well.

--

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/28/2014 4:13 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> I made the mistake of getting a generator about 20 years ago and just opened
> the box to see what kind of plugs and oil I would need, then sitting th ebox
> back over it.
>
> The wiring is no problem for me. Had that taken care, but when it came time
> for me to use the generator, I could not get it started. It was dark and I
> could not see it too well with just the flashlight. The next day my son
> came over and we looked at it. Seems that it has an on/off switch that I
> missed seeing in the dark, and the manual did not have it listed either,
> They showed the very old style of springie thing over the spark plug to shut
> off the engine. I doubt that method had been used in many years.
>

I've had my share of untested equipment moments.
Isn't it the cold dark nights that really are a
mess. And that's when you most need the camp fire,
generator, propane heater, and so on. Strap on
head lamp. And the list goes on.

--

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/28/2014 5:35 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> I just pulled the manual for the generator. It says to stop the engine push
> the stop tab to the spark plug. Also the engine manual that came with it
> shows the stop tab and tells you to stop the engine by pushing it to the
> spark plug. the date shows up as 1995
>
> For what it is worth, it is a 5 kw generator with a Tecumseh engine.
>
>

Some day I'll make a text file for this, I've typed
it so many times. You likely know all of this:

1) During power cuts, generators are high theft item. It's
wise to chain it to a tree or some thing solid, if possible
watch it in person with a large gun in hand.

2) Gasoline goes faster than you think, have more than
you think you need, on hand.

3) Running after sundown pisses off your neighbors who
don't have generators, and who want to put the baby
down.

4) Run the unit outdoors, so you don't die of monoxide,
as so many do.

Your unit probably has a low oil shut down. Please check
the oil every time you run, and keep it on the full line.
Generator oil capacity is about 20 ounces. If it's low,
add three or four ounces (not the whole quart, like
one I saw a while back).

Hope you never need this.

[Stormin Mormon]

Well, if I ever get an ETQ brand generator by
Stihl, I'll have the correct information.

--

[Arnie Goetchius]

philo wrote:
> On 11/28/2014 05:12 PM, HerHusband wrote:
>>>> If the OP goes with the reserve tank in the attic...
>>>> better take into account the weight of water.
>>>> 80 gallons would be something like 650#

>>=========snipped=============

> I'd probably use the lazy man method and keep a dozen (or two)water
> filled one gallon milk jugs in the basement. Use the water to flush the
> toilet only when necessary.

"If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown flush it down" :-)

[Harry K]

According to every chain saw manual I have ever seen (and I have seen a whole bunch) they should be run dry before putting them away. Even at the last 'cough' they have just drawn charge of fuel/oil mix.

Harry K

[Harry K]

So far you haven't given any cite to any manufacturer saying to "fog it".

Harry K

[Harry K]

On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:25:46 AM UTC-8, philo  wrote:

> On 11/28/2014 12:00 PM, HerHusband wrote:
> > We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
> > it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
> > We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
> > electricity.
> >

> > We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
> > radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
> > cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
> > the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
> > we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.
> >
> > We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
> > out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
> > toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
> > goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.
> >
>
>
> <snip>

>
>
> Why would the tank not be full at all times?
>

> I'd figure out a way to always keep it full .

Because pressure tanks run on air pressure. Pump controller turns on at a set low pressure, fills tank to a set high pressure and cuts off.

Harry K

[Harry K]

On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:00:58 AM UTC-8, HerHusband wrote:
> We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
> it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
> We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
> electricity.
>
> We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
> radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
> cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
> the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
> we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.
>
> We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
> out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
> toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
> goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.
>

> I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
> can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
> it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
> Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out.
>
> The cheap solution is just to store containers of water somewhere. But,
> that takes space and isn't very convenient. I don't know that my daughter
> would be able or willing to lift a 5 gallon container of water to refill
> a toilet tank if I'm not around.
>
> A generator is an obvious option, but power outages are rather rare. I
> don't want one more engine to have to maintain, worry about gas getting
> stale and gumming up, etc. Propane generators might overcome the long
> term storage issue, but they still take up space and require maintenance.
> Not to mention, I don't really want to go out in cold wind storms to
> start up a generator. Call me lazy.
>
> An inverter/charger system with batteries would be a good solution.
> Unfortunately, I haven't seen an affordable system that can power my 1/2
> HP 240V well pump. The ones I have seen cost more than a generator, or I
> would have to cobble together multiple devices (inverters, chargers, auto
> transformers, etc.) to make everything work.
>
> One final option I've thought of would be to store a water tank in our
> heated attic space. I figured I could plumb the inlet at the top and the
> outlet at the bottom so it is flushed regularly. With only a 9' rise it
> would offer very little pressure, but I would think it would still refill
> the toilets. We wouldn't be taking showers or washing laundry during a
> power outage anyway. The major downside to this option is getting the
> tank into the attic space and modifying all the plumbing. Doable, just
> not my ideal option.

>
> I'm curious what backup systems other water well users have come up with.
>
> I am only looking for a backup for a day, not outages lasting a week or
> more.
>

> Thanks,
>
> Anthony Watson
> www.mountainsoftware.com
> www.watsondiy.com

My backup consists of the ubiquitous 5 gal buckets. Power goes off I fill as many as I can right away and we go on 'conserve water' mode, no flushing the toilet every time, no clothes washing, etc. When the buckets get down near empty it is off to a neighbor or town to refill.

Harry K

[Harry K]

On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
> On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
>
> My first thought is if it's just for a day, whatever min is in
> that 80 gallon tank, ie assuming it's almost about to kick the
> pump on when power goes out, would be enough for me. Or that
> plus a couple of 5 gallon jugs.

>
> One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
> tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should

> give you a min of 20 gallons to work with. Or add

> that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
> air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
> about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
> X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.

Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously. Basically you would be simulating one double size tank as far as system operation goes.

<snip>

Harry K

[mike]

>> We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
>> out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
>> toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
>> goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.
>>

Not clear why this has to be the case?
AT 45 PSI, you should be able to keep the tank 2/3 full of water.
If that's not possible, you've got a flow rate problem and need more
storage. Will take more energy to pump against higher pressure, but how
much?

For big water storage, you can pressure it when needed with CO2.
When there's no emergency, you won't want the CO2 tank going to waste.
I suggest a fridge with a keg in it as a resting place.
When the power goes out, just drink beer until it comes back on.
Problem solved.

My favorite solution to a power outage is the well-deserved nap.

[trader_4]

Not wrong. You don't have air or an air bladder in the second tank.
The second tank is 100% water. Water from the existing tank comes into
the bottom. Water supply to the house comes out the top. The only air
is in the bladder in his existing tank.

[trader_4]

I want that two cycle engine that runs without fuel. It sounds like a
valuable solution to reducing energy usage.

[Stormin Mormon]

Wrong. Trader means to put some thing like a 20
gal water heater in the cold line that goes to
the pressure tank. When the power is off, the OP
can let air in the TP valve, and drain water off
the sediment faucet. With what old folks called a
"tempering tank" he'd have another few gal of water
in the house that gets refreshed automatic like.

Wrong. How's it feel, now?

[Stormin Mormon]

> On Friday, November 28, 2014 5:04:39 PM UTC-5, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>> Stormin Mormon <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How would you
>>> know that I do this "whatever" thing?
>>
>> Presumably by reading the owner's manual for the engine.
>>

I'd like you to come to my house, I'll
hand you the manual. You can point out
to me where it mentions "fogging" the
engine.

ETQ 1200, you might be able to find
the manual online. Otherwise, you're
full of crap, Sherlock.

[dadiOH]

"HerHusband" <unk...@unknown.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA3F39C4DF8...@213.239.209.88

> Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not
> connected
> to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from
> the
> wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
> source. :)

I wonder, can a hand pump be fitted to a well along with the electric
pump? I have no idea but I well remember a hand pump on our back entry,
used to pump soft rain water from a cistern (city water was very hard).

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[trader_4]

In particular, it seemed a valid and pertinent suggestion, since
HH stated this:

"I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out. "

As you say, my suggestion keeps the second tank full of water.
It will only have pressure as much as the original tanks has.
But after that pressure is gone, he still will have a tank full of
water that he can draw from via a bucket. And it won't be stagnant.
As I suggested, he could even have a tank of compressed air rigged
up, so that he could pressurize it during an outage. If he made it
CO2, he could have sparkling water to bath in!

[trader_4]

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 7:04:20 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> "HerHusband" <unk...@unknown.com> wrote in message
> news:XnsA3F39C4DF8...@213.239.209.88
>
> > Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not
> > connected
> > to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from
> > the
> > wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
> > source. :)
>
> I wonder, can a hand pump be fitted to a well along with the electric
> pump? I have no idea but I well remember a hand pump on our back entry,
> used to pump soft rain water from a cistern (city water was very hard).
>
> --
>
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>

In some cases, yes.. But the max lift for water is ~25 ft. So if
the water level is lower than that, then you need either a jet pump or
submersible.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/29/2014 7:06 AM, trader_4 wrote:
> In particular, it seemed a valid and pertinent suggestion, since
> HH stated this:
>
> "I've thought about adding a second pressure tank, but there's no way I
> can think of to ensure one is always fully pressurized (short of filling
> it up and shutting the valve off. I am trying to avoid stagnant water).
> Odds are both tanks would be just about empty when the power goes out. "
>
> As you say, my suggestion keeps the second tank full of water.
> It will only have pressure as much as the original tanks has.
> But after that pressure is gone, he still will have a tank full of
> water that he can draw from via a bucket. And it won't be stagnant.
> As I suggested, he could even have a tank of compressed air rigged
> up, so that he could pressurize it during an outage. If he made it
> CO2, he could have sparkling water to bath in!
>

If the "tempering tank" (got to call it some thing)
was plumbed with a couple valve, the water out could
come either from the top (normal) or bottom (in case
of emergency). For day to day use, the water coming
in the bottom and out the top would keep the tank full.

In case of power cut, put on the carbon dioxide tank,
and discharge water out the bottom of the tempering tank,
into the house water piping.

--

[Pico Rico]

"trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:8ef4e653-e063-4ff6...@googlegroups.com...

how about a small 12v submersible?

[Harry K]

1. What is keeping the water in the second tank from draining out? It would have to have an air inlet to drain. It is remotely feasible to put an air valve on top of the second tank, fill it, turn off the air valve and have your 80 gallons of reserve. But then in short order you have 80 gallons of stagnant water. No different than putting in an 80gal tank and filling it through a hose.

2. Water in well pressure tanks comes out through the bottom, actually through the same pipe.

Harry K

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/29/2014 10:45 AM, Harry K wrote:
> On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:03:36 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
>> Not wrong. You don't have air or an air bladder in the second tank.
>> The second tank is 100% water. Water from the existing tank comes into
>> the bottom. Water supply to the house comes out the top. The only air
>> is in the bladder in his existing tank.
>
> 1. What is keeping the water in the second tank from
draining out? It would have to have an air inlet to drain.

CY: Some thing called sheet metal, and fiberglass
keeps the water from draining out.
Yes, if there were air inlet and drain valve, it
might release its water.

It is remotely feasible to put an air valve on top of the
second tank, fill it, turn off the air valve and have your
80 gallons of reserve.

CY: We mentioned put the second tank inline with the water
supply.

But then in short order you have 80 gallons of stagnant water.

CY: Inline with the inlet.

No different than putting in an 80gal tank and filling it
through a hose.

CY: Reading comprehension....

>
> 2. Water in well pressure tanks comes out through the bottom,
actually through the same pipe.
>

CY: And if it's a huge Extrol kind of tank, goes out the
same pipe.

> Harry K
>

[Harry K]

His system will work tht way as long as you are satisfied with stagnant, stinky water when you need it. Or at least flush it several times a year. I have a 1/4 mile interconnect between me and my neighbors well in case one of us has a well oproblem. We have both used it (I had to use it for a month last summer). To use it though one has to flush 1/4 mile pipe thoroughly (I used the lawn sprinkler). You do not want to smell what first comes out.

Harry K.

[Harry K]

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 4:04:20 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
> "HerHusband" <unk...@unknown.com> wrote in message
> news:XnsA3F39C4DF8...@213.239.209.88
>
> > Our pump is in a well house that has it's own power supply (not
> > connected
> > to the house). I already wired the pump with a plug I can unplug from
> > the
> > wall and plug into another power source. All I need is the other power
> > source. :)
>
> I wonder, can a hand pump be fitted to a well along with the electric
> pump? I have no idea but I well remember a hand pump on our back entry,
> used to pump soft rain water from a cistern (city water was very hard).
>

Yes it can and is done but I have no idea if there is a depth limit on one.

Harry K

[trader_4]

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 10:45:52 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
> On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:03:36 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:33:08 AM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 28, 2014 10:35:59 AM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My first thought is if it's just for a day, whatever min is in
> > > > that 80 gallon tank, ie assuming it's almost about to kick the
> > > > pump on when power goes out, would be enough for me. Or that
> > > > plus a couple of 5 gallon jugs.
> > > >
> > > > One easy option would be to adjust the kick in pressure on your 80
> > > > tank so that it doesn't get as low before it kicks on. That should
> > > > give you a min of 20 gallons to work with. Or add
> > > > that second tank in series, so that it's always full of water, no
> > > > air. If power goes out, you'd only have pressurized water for
> > > > about as long as you do now. But you could still draw X gallons,
> > > > X being the size of the additional tank into buckets.
> > >
> > > Wrong. Both tanks will fill and empty simultaneously. Basically you would be simulating one double size tank as far as system operation goes.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Harry K
> >
> > Not wrong. You don't have air or an air bladder in the second tank.
> > The second tank is 100% water. Water from the existing tank comes into
> > the bottom. Water supply to the house comes out the top. The only air
> > is in the bladder in his existing tank.
>
> 1. What is keeping the water in the second tank from draining out?

What is keeping the water in the rest of the system from draining out, eg
all the water in the pipes, the water heeater, etc?

> It would have to have an air inlet to drain. It is remotely feasible to put an air valve on top of the second tank, fill it, turn off the air valve and have your 80 gallons of reserve. But then in short order you have 80 gallons of stagnant water.

No you don't. Because per my descripiton, that 80 gallons is in the
normal flow during normal operation, 99% of the time. It only becomes
"stagnant" when the power goes off. I hardly think the water is going to
go bad in just a day or two. Good grief.

> No different than putting in an 80gal tank and filling it through a hose.
>

Yes it is, because per my suggestion the second tank is in the normal flow
of water. If you did what you just suggested, then you would have a tank
of water that becomes stagnant. Capiche?

> 2. Water in well pressure tanks comes out through the bottom, actually through the same pipe.
>
> Harry K

Irreleveant

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/29/2014 10:50 AM, Harry K wrote:
> On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:09:07 AM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>> Wrong. Trader means to put some thing like a 20
>> gal water heater in the cold line that goes to
>> the pressure tank. When the power is off, the OP
>> can let air in the TP valve, and drain water off
>> the sediment faucet. With what old folks called a
>> "tempering tank" he'd have another few gal of water
>> in the house that gets refreshed automatic like.
>>
>> Wrong. How's it feel, now?
>

> His system will work that way as long as you are

satisfied with stagnant, stinky water when you need
it. Or at least flush it several times a year. I
have a 1/4 mile interconnect between me and my

neighbors well in case one of us has a well problem.

We have both used it (I had to use it for a month
last summer). To use it though one has to flush
1/4 mile pipe thoroughly (I used the lawn sprinkler).
You do not want to smell what first comes out.
>
> Harry K.
>

The system Trader mentioned, uses a tank inline
with the water inlet to his pressure tank. Every
time you use water inside the house, the tempering
tank water is being replaced. Your reading
comprehension sucks bigtime, you are clueless
at this point.

Do you, (clueless), and your neighbor (also
clueless) use compressed air to try and empty
out the 1/4 mile pipe between uses? No, didn't
think so.

[Harry K]

That is if you are using a suction type pump. There are lots of pumps that have the working part down in the water worked by what is known as "suction rods". Those are what were used by windmills back in the pre-electric power days. IIANM there are hand pumps working the same way. Now the 'static level' of the well comes into play as one wouldn't want to try to manually pump a 100'
column of water.

Harry K

[Harry K]

My comprehension is just fine. YOu can have a tank full of water that is kept full due to lack of any air in it. I which case you get stagnant water because it will never be replaced in normal operation or you can have it constantly being replaced in his system. The latter results in it draining at the same rate. You two do not seem to understand hydraulics very well.

One way or another you are going to have to get air into that second tank to get it to drain. Any air in it at all in normal use just turns it into another pressure tank connected to a common hydraulic system.

Harry K

[Harry K]

Finally the light dawns! I was looking at it with the storage one after the pressure tank. Put it before the pressure tank and it _does_ work. That tank could even be on the bottom floor.

Harry K


Harry K

[Mark Lloyd]

On 11/28/2014 05:35 PM, philo wrote:

[snip]

> I'd probably use the lazy man method and keep a dozen (or two)water
> filled one gallon milk jugs in the basement. Use the water to flush the
> toilet only when necessary.
>

> Not elegant but Ok for once or twice a year.
>
>
> At least when the power goes out here, the water still works.

When we lived on the farm (and used a well), my mother would keep a
1-gallon slip (porcelain slip, my grandmother had her own business) jar
of water by the toilet. These jars have big openings, so she could pour
it in the bowl fast enough to make it flush. We went to a neighbor who
had city water to refill the jars.

--
26 days until the winter celebration (Thursday December 25, 2014
12:00:00 AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"The missionaries go forth to Christianize the savages-- as if the
savages weren't dangerous enough already." [Edward Abbey]

[Harry K]

See my reply to Trader - I finally "got" it.

Of course we use compressed air to empty out that 1/4 mile line. What do you think the air in our pressure tanks is any way?

Harry K

[Stormin Mormon]

> Harry K
>

So, for two points and a chance to have the clueless
label reviewed, which of those two systems did
Trader4 suggest?

And which have we been trying to discuss?

You have no lifelines, and five minutes to reply.

[Stormin Mormon]

I am so, totally frieking glad your reading
comprehension works, fine. Damn, boy, what
took you so long?

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/29/2014 11:38 AM, Harry K wrote:
> See my reply to Trader - I finally "got" it.
>
> Of course we use compressed air to empty out
that 1/4 mile line. What do you think the air
in our pressure tanks is any way?
>
> Harry K
>

From what I know of well systems, the air in
the pressure tank is captive. It won't do a
bit of good, to clear the 1/4 mile line between
your places.

When I winterize RV for the church's camp ground,
I use a portable electric compressor, and a blow
out adapter or two.

How about yourself, and the 1/4 mile line?

[songbird]

Harry K wrote:
...

>
> Yes it can and is done but I have no idea if there is a depth limit on one.

if you don't need that many gallons per day you can
use a much smaller pump run off battery backup. i'm
pretty sure they have them available.

in terms of simple and least expensive when the power
goes out here i have a few gallon jugs in the closet
for flushing when needed. only used them a few times.

the last time the power went out i filled up some
buckets from the faucet while the water had pressure
and we used that water instead -- i never needed to get
the gallon jugs out.

our water table is really high (2-3ft most of the
year) so i could get by with a hand pump for almost
everything except drinking/cooking water. i don't
know how high the well water gets under natural
pressure but i think it is down several hundred feet.
shallow wells get salty and/or coal seam flavored water.


songbird

[HerHusband]

> My backup consists of the ubiquitous 5 gal buckets.
> Power goes off I fill as many as I can right away

What is the purpose of filling the buckets instead of letting the toilets
and faucets get it directly from the supply plumbing? Either way you've got
the same amount of water. Maybe I'm missing something.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[HerHusband]

> per my descripiton, that 80 gallons is in the normal flow during normal
> operation, 99% of the time.

That was my idea with the attic mounted tanks. In normal use water would
come in at the top and drain out at the bottom. When the power goes out,
gravity would allow the water in the tank to drain down. It would be low
pressure, but still usable for flushing toilets and filling pans. Since the
tank is always being drained and refilled during normal operation (like a
hot water tank) the water shouldn't get stagnant.

The big downside to that option is having to get tanks up into the attic
and reworking the house plumbing.

In theory, I could relocate the storage tank out to the pumphouse, still
placing it inline with the normal water flow. I would only have pressure
till the normal pressure tank ran out, then it would just rely on gravity
feed. Our pump house doesn't sit that much higher than the house, so the
gravity pressure would be very minimal.

Essentially, it would be like the water tower in many towns, just without
the height to give it pressure.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/29/2014 12:26 PM, HerHusband wrote:
> That was my idea with the attic mounted tanks. In normal use water would
> come in at the top and drain out at the bottom. When the power goes out,
> gravity would allow the water in the tank to drain down. It would be low
> pressure, but still usable for flushing toilets and filling pans. Since the
> tank is always being drained and refilled during normal operation (like a
> hot water tank) the water shouldn't get stagnant.
>
> The big downside to that option is having to get tanks up into the attic
> and reworking the house plumbing.
>

> Anthony Watson
> www.mountainsoftware.com
> www.watsondiy.com
>

One of the challenges, filling from the top
might not fill at all, unless you've got some
way to vent the air from the top of the chamber.

It's complicated.

--

[KenK]

HerHusband <unk...@unknown.com> wrote in
news:XnsA3F365DEFD...@213.239.209.88:

> We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water,
> so it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes
> out. We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
> electricity.
>

I have two trash cans, lined with a couple of 39 gal. plastic leaf bags.
I don't know how big the trash cans are - knee high and about as wide.
I'd guess 30 gal. I top these off every month or so if not used. When
needed I just dip in a pail and pour in the toilet bowl. No need to use
tank.

Works for me for our few outages.

For drinking and cooking I have a separate water supply.


--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

[philo]

On 11/29/2014 10:36 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 11/28/2014 05:35 PM, philo wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> I'd probably use the lazy man method and keep a dozen (or two)water
>> filled one gallon milk jugs in the basement. Use the water to flush the
>> toilet only when necessary.
>>
>> Not elegant but Ok for once or twice a year.
>>
>>
>> At least when the power goes out here, the water still works.
>
> When we lived on the farm (and used a well), my mother would keep a
> 1-gallon slip (porcelain slip, my grandmother had her own business) jar
> of water by the toilet. These jars have big openings, so she could pour
> it in the bowl fast enough to make it flush. We went to a neighbor who
> had city water to refill the jars.
>

I have a bunch of gallon jugs in my basement that I fill from the
over-flow tube from my humidifier. Not much goes to waste here.

[dpb]

On 11/28/2014 5:35 PM, philo wrote:
...

> At least when the power goes out here, the water still works.

That was the advantage of having the windmill...we've got some heat and
a secondary gas range in the basement that let's us cook but with the
well now on submersible in same predicament as OP.

I keep thinking should do something to get enough backup to do so but
it's a real pain as we're laid out as there are two separate meters for
the farmstead and the well and the house are on separate one so the cost
for transfer switches is double plus the wiring interconnect is
extensive owing to distances between locations.

All in all, now that we're no longer keeping cattle in large numbers,
we've taken the expedient of just going to town for a day or so if it's
going to be a long time--otherwise the extra jug or two and ahead of
severe weather forecasts that look like could cause issues we'll
stockpile some in large pots and a few gallon jugs, too...

--

[philo]

Check out my buddy here
he's selling his farm

http://www.tdlelectronics.com/



Poor bastard is about ten years younger than me but completely ruined
his lungs due to smoking, has to retire and possibly move to assisted
living.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/29/2014 7:06 PM, philo wrote:
>> All in all, now that we're no longer keeping cattle in large numbers,
>> we've taken the expedient of just going to town for a day or so if it's
>> going to be a long time--otherwise the extra jug or two and ahead of
>> severe weather forecasts that look like could cause issues we'll
>> stockpile some in large pots and a few gallon jugs, too...
>
>

> Poor bastard is about ten years younger than me but completely ruined
> his lungs due to smoking, has to retire and possibly move to assisted
> living.

I think it's a good idea to have some
water stored. One way or other.

Smoking killed my Dad, he was only 79.
spent his last years in rough shape.

[Jim Rusling]

HerHusband <unk...@unknown.com> wrote:

>We had a couple of major power outages this year and ran out of water, so
>it has renewed my interest in finding a backup when the power goes out.
>We live in Washington state and everything here is powered by
>electricity.
>

>We have a woodstove for backup heat, and battery powered LED lights and
>radio that can last for days. Power failures almost always occur during
>cold winter storms, so we can just stick our perishible foods outside if
>the power goes out for more than a few hours. As long as we have water,
>we can cook on the woodstove or heat water in a pan for washing up.
>
>We have a large pressure tank (80 gallon I believe). If the power goes
>out when the tank is full, we're fine. 80 gallons will flush a lot of
>toilets. Unfortunately, the tank is rarely completely full when the power
>goes out and this last time it was nearly empty when we lost power.
>
For the toilets, just get a portapotty. They take very little water
to flush. If you put in a water storage tank, you can get an RV
demand pump to pressure the water lines.
--
Jim Rusling
More or Less Retired
Mustang, OK
My local Weather http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KOKMUSTA4

[HerHusband]

> One of the challenges, filling from the top
> might not fill at all, unless you've got some
> way to vent the air from the top of the chamber.
> It's complicated.

I can see that being an issue for a tank that only has an inlet.

However, with an inlet and an outlet, the water/air in the tank should exit
the tank as new water is coming in from the top. For example hot water
heaters don't have air vents and they fill and drain just fine. Or the way
air is pushed out of a garden hose when you first hook it up.

Essentially, the water tank just becomes a fat section of pipe in the water
line. :) Not too different in concept from adapting a 1/2" pipe up to 1"
pipe, then back down to 1/2" again. The 1" section is the "tank".

In any case, I'm leaning towards 5 gallon water jugs I can just store in
the pump house. We typically only have one or two outages a year, and the
only thing we really need additional water for is flushing toilets. I just
can't justify the expense, complications, and maintenance of generators,
inverters, or large storage tanks. They would be only be needed for longer
outages when the existing pressure tank runs out.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[HerHusband]

> Smoking killed my Dad, he was only 79.
> spent his last years in rough shape.

Unfortunately, same here...

My dad died from smoking related cancers at 51 (same age I am now).
My uncle died from lung cancer in his 30's.
Step mom died from smoking related cancers in her 60's.
My father-in-law just died from emphysema two years ago at 73 (the last 10+
years were very rough for him).
Brother-in-law also died from emphysema at age 61.

It amazes me people still take up smoking.

Anthony

[trader_4]

It works exactly the same before or after the pressure tank. A tank after
the pressure tank is still full of water, just like all the pipes in the
house, the WH, etc are.

[trader_4]

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 1:54:09 AM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
> > One of the challenges, filling from the top
> > might not fill at all, unless you've got some
> > way to vent the air from the top of the chamber.
> > It's complicated.
>
> I can see that being an issue for a tank that only has an inlet.
>
> However, with an inlet and an outlet, the water/air in the tank should exit
> the tank as new water is coming in from the top.

Water will exit, air, not so much.

For example hot water
> heaters don't have air vents and they fill and drain just fine.

They fill from the bottom and water exits from the top.

Or the way
> air is pushed out of a garden hose when you first hook it up.

That works because the velocity of the water through the pipe is high.
If the 80 gallon tank was a hose, it would probably work there too.
But it's not. It't a large vessel and air rises to the top, water
stays on the bottom.

[trader_4]

You know, now you're starting to annoy me. And your explanations are making
less and less sense.

"YOu can have a tank full of water that is kept full due to lack of any air in it. I which case you get stagnant water because it will never be replaced in normal operation or you can have it constantly being replaced in his system. "

Try reading the above that you posted a few times.

" YOu can have a tank full of water that is kept full due to lack of any air in it. "

That's an odd way of looking at it. Most would say a tank is full of water
because it's full of water. Since you want to drag hydraulics and science
into it, technically it's perfectly possible to have an empty tank without
air in it at all. It's called a vacuum.

"I which case you get stagnant water because it will never be replaced in normal operation or you can have it constantly being replaced in his system. "

Water can be constantly replaced or not, with the tank always kept full.
Your parsing makes no sense.

And finally, you have some nerve to say that I don't understand hydraulics.
I explained to you how a second storage tank could be added. You even finally said you get it, but obviously
you don't because you're still confused. You posted that a second tank
in series can only work if it's before the pressure tank? So, how then
does a water heater work? It's a tank full of water, after the pressure
tank.

And finally, I think part of your problem is that you're not being clear.
Stormin clearly was referring to "the system Trader mentioned". You appear
to be talking about adding the tank at a remote pump house, which Anthony
brought up. I never discussed it, but there is no reason you could not
have an extra storage tank there, in series, where the water is not
stagnant. Good grief.

>
> One way or another you are going to have to get air into that second tank to get it to drain. Any air in it at all in normal use just turns it into another pressure tank connected to a common hydraulic system.
>
> Harry K

No shit sherlock. I said that in my first post. I even suggested that
an option would be to have a tank of compressed air, nitrogen, etc
plumbed in so that he could pressurize the system, use all that water
through the normal system. Or he could just open the valve at the bottom
and let it run out. Kind of like using a 5 gal jug. What does any of
that have to do with stagnant water? And you would not have any air in
the second tank. It's fed from the bottom, water goes out the top.
Capiche?

[trader_4]

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 12:14:04 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
> > My backup consists of the ubiquitous 5 gal buckets.
> > Power goes off I fill as many as I can right away
>
> What is the purpose of filling the buckets instead of letting the toilets
> and faucets get it directly from the supply plumbing? Either way you've got
> the same amount of water. Maybe I'm missing something.
>

The only purpose I can see to filling buckets after the power goes off
is if you're concerned that there are some dummies in the house that are
going to use up the water and then you won't have any when you need to
flush.

[philo]

When my wife moved in here, I knew better than to give her the "smoking"
lecture....but she knew in advance that she would have to smoke out-doors.

As it turned out, those -20F Wisconsin winters are a good thing.
One one of those days I heard the back door slam and she yelled

"Fuck this shit, I'm quitting"

and she did!


It's a horrible addiction, they say it's harder to quit smoking than it
is to quit heroine.

[Harry K]

Damfino! Your posts were certainly clear enough.

Harry K

[Harry K]

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 8:45:50 AM UTC-8, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> On 11/29/2014 11:38 AM, Harry K wrote:
> > See my reply to Trader - I finally "got" it.
> >
> > Of course we use compressed air to empty out
> that 1/4 mile line. What do you think the air
> in our pressure tanks is any way?
> >
> > Harry K
> >
>
> From what I know of well systems, the air in
> the pressure tank is captive. It won't do a
> bit of good, to clear the 1/4 mile line between
> your places.
>
> When I winterize RV for the church's camp ground,
> I use a portable electric compressor, and a blow
> out adapter or two.
>
> How about yourself, and the 1/4 mile line?
>

And just why would that be? You do realize that pumps kick on when the pressure drops to cut-in? No, it won't clear the line on one cycle but it will with repeated ones. Sheesh!

Harry K

[Harry K]

Water conservation so someone isn't wasting it is one reason. The other is that I KNOW when I am about to run out so I can make a trip to refill them before it is needed.

Harry K

[Harry K]

Exept for the problem of getting air into the top of the tank so it can drain. Without that you have a tank full of water held in there by atmospheric pressure. There would also be the problem of being sure the water was being exchanged regularly.

Harry K

[HerHusband]

>> What is the purpose of filling the buckets instead of letting the
>> toilets and faucets get it directly from the supply plumbing? Either
>> way you've got the same amount of water. Maybe I'm missing something.

> Water conservation so someone isn't wasting it is one reason. The
> other is that I KNOW when I am about to run out so I can make a trip
> to refill them before it is needed.

Perhaps. I would rather just fill up some containers BEFORE we have a power
outage. I can use our normal water supply as needed. When it runs out and I
need to start using the water in the containers, I know my supply is
limited and may need to go refill them.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[Harry K]

Exactly or get up in the morning and find I have no water to make coffee :)

Harry K

[HerHusband]

>>> One of the challenges, filling from the top
>>> might not fill at all, unless you've got some
>>> way to vent the air from the top of the chamber.
>>> It's complicated.

>> I can see that being an issue for a tank that only has an inlet.
>> However, with an inlet and an outlet, the water/air in the tank
>> should exit the tank as new water is coming in from the top.

> Water will exit, air, not so much.

Interesting. I'll take your word on that. I've never tried filling a tank
like that to know for sure.

I learned something new today.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

[Harry K]

It will work if, and only if, the supply water to the house is running through that storage tank.

Well-storage-pressure tank-house works. The water in the storage tank is being constantly exchanged.

Well-pressure-house-storage does not work as there is no way to exchange water in the storage.

Well-pressure-storage-house now works with the storage after the pressure but the house supply is still running through that storage tank.

Hot water tank works because the house supply comes AFTER the tank and thus the water is being replaced.

Harry K
Harry K

[dadiOH]

"trader_4" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:b7c5227c-fff2-4e99...@googlegroups.com

My wife & I lived on our sailboat for ten years. The 100 gallon water
tank I built in it filled from the top, exited from the bottom. That
worked because I put in a check valve in a pipe "U" on the top...when the
water was pumped out, the exterior air pressure opened the valve to let
air in.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[trader_4]

That is precisely what I proposed and what I and Stormin have been
talking about.

> Well-storage-pressure tank-house works. The water in the storage tank is being constantly exchanged.
>
> Well-pressure-house-storage does not work as there is no way to exchange water in the storage.
>

Ridiculous. You have an existing pressure tank, the type you'd have with
any typical pump system. You put a second tank after that. Connect the
incoming water to the bottom, connect the outgoing supply to the house at
the top. The water is constantly exchanged. That is exactly what I proposed. Still don't believe me? Go take a look at your water heater tank and tell us how that works.

> Well-pressure-storage-house now works with the storage after the pressure but the house supply is still running through that storage tank.
>
> Hot water tank works because the house supply comes AFTER the tank and thus the water is being replaced.
>
> Harry K
> Harry K

The water is always replaced and flowing when you have an inlet at the bottom
and an outlet at the top, with the tank in series with the supply. Hot water
tank works because water comes in the bottom, goes out the top. Good grief.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/28/2014 4:13 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> The wiring is no problem for me. Had that taken care, but when it came time
> for me to use the generator, I could not get it started. It was dark and I
> could not see it too well with just the flashlight. The next day my son
> came over and we looked at it. Seems that it has an on/off switch that I
> missed seeing in the dark, and the manual did not have it listed either,
> They showed the very old style of springie thing over the spark plug to shut
> off the engine. I doubt that method had been used in many years.
>

Perhaps you are the one who is lazy
and cheap? And so you call names on
electrician you've never met?


--

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/28/2014 5:35 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> I don't know how long it has been that the ground tab has not been used, bit
> it has been a long time. The generator was bought new around 1998 and the
> book showed the tab, but the engine actually had the switch mounted on it.
> Really odd that an owners manual that new would show one even if the engine
> did not have one.
>

Now, that sounds lazy and cheap.

Maybe consider yourself, instead of
namecall electricians?

[Stormin Mormon]

You're really all over the place.

1) you use compressed air to clear the water line
2) The compressed air is in the holding tank
3) The demand pump clears the water line

I hope the gentle readers on this list can make
more sense than what I'm seeing. I'm getting dizzy,
reading your posts.

--

[Stormin Mormon]

On 11/30/2014 4:38 PM, trader_4 wrote:
> On Sunday, November 30, 2014 12:01:44 PM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
>>>>> The system Trader mentioned, uses a tank inline
>>>>> with the water inlet to his pressure tank. Every
>>>>> time you use water inside the house, the tempering
>>>>> tank water is being replaced. Your reading
>>>>> comprehension sucks bigtime, you are clueless
>>>>> at this point.
>>>>>

>>>> My comprehension is just fine. YOu can have a tank full of water that is kept full due to lack of any air in it. I which case you get stagnant water because it will never be replaced in normal operation or you can have it constantly being replaced in his system. The latter results in it draining at the same rate. You two do not seem to understand hydraulics very well.
>>>
>>> You know, now you're starting to annoy me. And your explanations are making
>>> less and less sense.
>>>
>>

>> It will work if, and only if, the supply water to the house is running through that storage tank.
>>
>
> That is precisely what I proposed and what I and Stormin have been
> talking about.
>

Trader and I appear to be wasting effort.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Do it the way my house in Livingston Zambia was done. Big storage tank
in the attic, vented to atmosphere, fill controlled by a float valve -
gravity feed to to the faucets - including the "geyser".

[Pico Rico]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xfNew.978851$Y4.6...@fx24.iad...

Someone is wrong on the internet. It is your duty to continue your efforts.
You must.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Stormin Mormon:

>Smoking killed my Dad, he was only 79.
>spent his last years in rough shape.

Mine made it to 84, but that is deceiving.

His life really mostly ended 20 years earlier from smoking-related
disabilities.

I think the emphasis on death by anti-smoking efforts is a mistake.
People are prone to say "Well, if I die, I die and that's the end of
it." Instead of death, I'd emphasis the years of invalidism leading up
to it.

For younger people, who generally think they're superhuman and immortal,
I'd emphasize the bad breath and body odor.
--
Pete Cresswell

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per philo :

>It's a horrible addiction, they say it's harder to quit smoking than it

>is to quit heroin.

Here's a quote from "Licit & Illicit Drugs" by Edward M. Becher and the
Editors of Consumer Reports.

Page 217: (describing the outcome of a NYC Syananon's members to give up
cigarettes for economic reasons)...

"...About 100 people left during the six-month period following the ban
and chose possible readdiction to drugs outside Synanon to life without
cigarettes," the Times added.

'With most drugs,' one Syananon resident explained, 'you get over the
symptoms in a few days, a week at most. But with tobacco, we've notice
them for at least six months.' Another, who had personally 'kicked'
both heroin and tobacco, made a comparison of the two even more
startling than Dr Dole's: 'It was much easier to quit heroin than
cigarettes.'"
--
Pete Cresswell

[philo]

Thanks for that, it is so sad watching my friends literally killing
themselves and they seem completely incapable of quitting.


When my wife and I go shopping, on the way out of the store we look at
the cartons of cigarettes...typically $75 . Our groceries for the week
generally come out to less than two cartons worth.

[Harry K]

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 1:38:27 PM UTC-8, trader_4 wrote:
> On Sunday, November 30, 2014 12:01:44 PM UTC-5, Harry K wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 30,

<snip>

>
> > Well-storage-pressure tank-house works. The water in the storage tank is being constantly exchanged.
> >
> > Well-pressure-house-storage does not work as there is no way to exchange water in the storage.
> >
>
> Ridiculous. You have an existing pressure tank, the type you'd have with
> any typical pump system.

Look at the flow chart again. well-pressuretank-house-storagetank. The storage tank is at the end of the 'pipe line" and has no exit. Water is not flowing in and out of it unless you somehow allow air to enter the tank.

Now you change it to a normal pressure tank - what happened to your idea of having 50 gallon storage when the power goes out and the regular tank empties?

Answer - you don't, all you have is the same amount of residual water just as if you had added a second pressure tank.'

The whole discussion was about how to have 50 gal water left after the first tank empties.

Now with well - storage - presuretank- house. Water is flowing through the storage at every cycle but does not empty when the power goes out. Even then I think there would be a problem getting air into the storage tank to allow it to drain.

That is the set-up as I understood it from your first post. I was wrong.

You put a second tank after that. Connect the
> incoming water to the bottom, connect the outgoing supply to the house at
> the top. The water is constantly exchanged. That is exactly what I proposed. Still don't believe me? Go take a look at your water heater tank and tell us how that works.

Already answered, it is in the pressurized system with input/output.

> > Well-pressure-storage-house now works with the storage after the pressure but the house supply is still running through that storage tank.
> >
> > Hot water tank works because the house supply comes AFTER the tank and thus the water is being replaced.
> >
> > Harry K
> > Harry K
>
> The water is always replaced and flowing when you have an inlet at the bottom
> and an outlet at the top, with the tank in series with the supply. Hot water
> tank works because water comes in the bottom, goes out the top. Good grief.

Correct, but I pointed out you can plumb it with the storage tank at the end of the run where the water is NOT running through the tank. That was my mistake in understanding your first post. Again I don't know how I got it that whay.

Bottom line is I still don't see any way to have 50 gal storage water left when the regular pressure tank empties.

Harry K

Harry K